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Atheists reject prayers for Hitchens, believers doubt he's a child of God Christopher Hitchens (right) with author Mark Danner in 2004. Hordes of atheists are commenting on yesterday's post from a Catholic priest who says Christians should pray for the cancer-stricken Christopher Hitchens, even if he is an enemy of religion. Far from being touched by the priest's gesture, the atheists are mostly offended:
Here's another:
A fair number of believers, meanwhile, challenge the author - a priest and a seminary professor - on his description of Hitchens as a "child of God":
Any atheists out there who appreciate prayers for Hitchens' health? Any believers who think he's a child of God?
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The Headlines should be "GOD trying to murder Christopher Hitchens with Cancer, Christians trying to stop their GOD – who will win?".
Some would be praying for Hitchens to be cured, while others would be begging God to have mercy on his soul, while still others would be pleading that he be made Hitler's cellmate, if you know what I mean?
And how do you know things no one can know?
Who created God?
His name was George, but he was dyslexic. He meant d-o-g.
When will Atheists give up on their fairytale that a finite universe, that has no power to create, created itself?
As apposed to the most advanced and powerful being imaginable, God, somehow always existing... and then creating the entire universe out of nothing, and we, somehow, were created in his image and therefore resemble this being? Talk about fairytales!
In what sense is the universe "finite?" Can you point out its boundaries? And in what sense does the universe not have the power to create?
Its incredible that you scoff at scientific theory as "fairytales"...when you are the one filling a void of ignorance with a ludicrous bronze age myth as the answer.
Atheists and Christians. There are intolerant people in every category of belief. Rather, what is not being reported is those who do not believe who may smirk and find it silly that one would pray for someone else, but at least appreciate the good will. As Dr. Carl Sagan said, atheists pretend to know more than he did. Those who are truly honest simply must say, at this stage in our development, we still just don't know.
Hence, pray for those out of the goodness of your heart. For those who do not believe, accept what you see, a gesture of goodwill for your wellbeing and life. We are human first, and the other second.
Regards to All,
Concerned
Atheists, like myself, are an extraordinarily tolerant lot. We just don't self-righteous, hypocrites imposing their beliefs on us.
Atheism is a belief system (religion), because the existence of God cannot be conclusively disproven, just as it cannot be conclusively proven. You BELIEVE that God does not exist, but you cannot prove it, can you? Oh sure, you can provide argument, or even evidence...but you cannot PROVE it. You therefore proceed by faith(and hope..haha!) that there is no God. So please, don't condescend to those you THINK you're superior to. If I'm a fool to believe in something I cannot prove, you're equally foolish.
We think we are superior? We are not the ones threatening eternal damnation. Atheism is a lack of belief, it is not a religion. The burden of proof lies with those making the claim. If I told you that the tooth fairy is real, you would expect some type of evidence. Please provide verifiable evidence of your god. By the way, don't get so cranked up. You might drop that chip on your shoulder.
Swango, I can not speak for any other non believer but I "do not believe" there is no GOD any more than you "do not believe" there is no Santa, we both know there is no Santa and I know there is no GOD. You know there is no Santa ans you have faith there is a GOD and that GOD is the one you have been worshiping. I could no more be wrong in my knowledge of the non existence in GOD than you can be in your knowledge in the non existence in Santa.
You have the meaning of the word wrong. A-theism – A-latin for without and theism – latin for belief in god/s.
Atheism just means without belief in a god, not believe no gods.
You are worse, you actively believe all other gods than yours do not exist. That's a lot of gods to be so sure about.
Is not believing in Zeus also a religion?
@NL.... Hey there..... As far as I know, and I am open to being wrong here....but..... your post..."Is not believing in Zeus also a religion..?
I think to 'NOT' believe in something does not make it a religion... Again, it could be just a grammatical error in terms of the 'way' you worded it.
I think the question would be.... "Is believing in Zeus also a religion.?
Which in that case, I would argue yes, as it is a belief in a god, which by definition, is part of what makes something a religion... I don't think that 'not' believing in a god of some kind makes it a religion...
Peace....
peace2all-
Actually I did mean "not." swango claimed that atheism is a religion, so I asked if not believing in a god was a religion? No grammatical error.
Let me illustrate my point. All being an atheist means is disbelieving that any gods are real. There are no other parts to being an atheist. No rituals, no hymns, no organized meeting places, no clergy, no collection plate, ... None of the trappings of any religion, only a disbelief in gods actually being real.
Humans have worshipped about 3 million deities in our history. The Christian deity then is just 0.0000003% of all deities that atheists disbelieve in. Disbelief in this one god does not define us as we treat all gods equally, as the product of myth, and as human creations.
Now, if you ask a Christian they will say that their god is the one and only god, and that they disbelieve in all other gods. Zeus, Thor, Shiva, Brahman, Sedna, Ares, Ra, Baal, Isis, and even Allah they claim are false gods or mythical creations. They are, in fact, atheists towards all gods except their own! What's more, they will often use the exact same arguments to disclaim other gods as we do for disclaiming all gods. So Christians actually disbelieve in about 99.99996% of the same gods that we complete atheists do. Put in that light Christians basically believe almost exactly as we atheists do, right?
@NL.... My apologies....! I had not seen that you were actually posting to @swango.....
Yep, @swango was the one asserting the faulty claim that atheism = religion....
Your post after mine by the way is virtually identical conceptually to my posts...
Peace to you my friend....
No problem, peace2all
I was just expanding on Kate's idea anyway.
I like the analogy of religion being like sports. There are football fans, baseball fans, hockey fans, and even soccer fans, rugby fans and other, more traditionally non-American sports fans. They are all over the world, in every country. They all have their differences, and they can argue until the bars close as to which sport is the best, but they can all connect in their being a sports fan. For all their differences, they still have this connection.
Now imagine if you are not a fan of any sports? Don't see any point in watching even the olympics. Many sports fans, the really serious fanatics, around the world just can't fathom how that is even possible. Some even blame you're non-support for the poor season of the local team. "Not everyone is coming out to support the team" some cry. As irrational as that sounds you become a jinx, a kind of sports evil.
So, you see, the idea that atheism is a religion is like saying that you're a kind of sports fan even if you don't follow any sports at all.
@NL: Your post unknowingly brings up possibly the greatest mystery in human history. The question is not "if", but rather "WHY" are there soccer fans?
swango- Atheism is the absence of any belief in a god or divine creator. For instance, if you do not believe in Allah, Zeus, or Thor, you too are an atheist. This "atheism is a religion" is simply the last gasp of the faithful who are left without an argument, so they attempt to equate non-belief with belief in order to fool simple minds. Nice try.
Toby-
It's important for Christians to label atheists as following a kind of religion because their traditional enemy, the one that draws the ranks together, has always been rival religions. Appeals to ancestral tradition and the sacrificial character of Jesus goes a long way in convincing Christians not to shift from one religion to another. It's far more difficult to swing people back when the very belief in the supernatural or organized parts of religion has been lost. Allowing atheism to stand as a non-religious alternative would make it far too dangerous, so it has to be characterized as a belief system, just as flawed as other rival belief systems in comparison to Christianity.
Although prayer does absolutely nothing (as evidenced by the millions who pray to a man in the sky only to have their wishes ignored), I see no harm in any of it. If they want to pray to the man, let them if it makes them happy. They are only fooling themselves I suppose.
My heart really goes out to those that fight God so hard and will never be able to overcome Him. They are making a terrible mistake by pushing Jesus Christ aside and changing Him to a fairytale. I do pray that some day, they will open up their eyes of understanding. Many Atheists already have.
Hello HeIsGod! Always nice to hear from you. I hope all is well.
I do not figt your god. I do not fight any gods that do not exist. I am not angry or bitter because of something in my past. I simply find no evidence to support your claim of the existence of your god. But please do not be upset or angry with me for saying that. If it makes you feel better, you have as much evidence for your god as their is for every other god that man has worshiped since the dawn of civilization. As a matter of fact, you are almost as much of an atheist as I am. You do not believe in Zeus or Ra or Oden or any other gods. I just believe in one less god than you.
Far far far more Christians have given up the dysfunctionality of trying to believe and dropped it like the burden it is. Most because they actually read the bible. You might want to try that yourself.
Other than that, it does take honesty to be atheist. Once you become truly honest with yourself, it's really hard to pretend anymore.
It seems as if each side makes the other side uncomfortable. It's a pity.
We are all part of the human race. Some are more enlightened than others.
Shall we hate or despise those who are less so ? Mr. Hitchens is a "somethng".
I wish him well becasue of that. DOes anyone want to disagree and wish him
less ? Oh ! Who is so holy as to know the mind of God perfectly ??
Hello, Green Hornet-1 – No one is better than anyone. We are have been created by the same Creator of heaven and earth. Even when Mr. Hitchens, Atheists, Agnostics, and unbelievers don't believe in Christ Jesus, we know that the Lord died for them as well and it is our prayer that many will come unto repentance and give their lives to Christ before it is too late. No one can know the mind of God perfectly, but we have to put on the mind of Christ to preach the Gospel of the Good News to those that are lost, spiritually.
As often stated by intelligent people, "there is nothing more useless than prayer". A Harvard study in 2009 showed that sick patients came out worse when prayed for, vs the placebo group. Instead of praying, religionists should take 3 hours/wk to work in a soup kitchen, or tutoring young people. Imagine how much that would improve the world vs useless prayer.
As for Mr Hitchens, I wish him well, remind him as we should all know that we are mortal, and honor him for bringing some rays of knowledge into a relatively stupid world caused by religion.
God is imaginary. God is fictional. Believe what you must for your own comfort. Do not presume to extend your delusion to my affairs. Do not pray for me. I have my own understanding with the All-in-All.
Daniel, no matter how it may bother you that someone prays, you really can't stop us. Every Christians are praying for everyone that are spiritually. We also pray for each other, we all need it.
Of course I cannot stop you. I can only make clear my wish for you not to pray on my account. Can you not see how, whatever you may feel about it, your prayers are as welcome in my spiritual life as a subway-riding pervert's hand is on a commuter's backside? Just because you can get away with it doesn't make it appropriate. I have asked you not to. Your unwillingness to respect that request demonstrates your disrespect for your fellow human beings – which I believe to be contrary to the teachings of Christ.
Some people here need to contemplate this: How does one NOT contract a cancer if one opposes the Almighty? In speaking AGAINST Truth, one is hooked in negative energies, which will eventually manifest diseases. It's all so simply. Even the THOUGHT of writing a book that opposes God is sick and suicide, let alone acting it out. This man simply got what he deserved, I see his little situation as a testimony to the Truth and existence of Divine Laws. Sympathy is not going to remove one ounce relief of the suffering that this man has brought on *himself*. Speaking against the Almighty is simply spiritual suicide, learn from him.
Horse Feathers !
Luke 23:34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do ."
DAVINCIKODE,
There is no Ultimate Truth, was not, is not, ain't gonna be. You are basing your whole position upon a book, written by men who thought the Sun revolved around the Earth. Many thought the Earth was flat.
Isn't it interesting that you just happened to born into the "True Religion" ?
Based upon the available evidence...there probably isn't a god. If you have evidence I would like to see it. Mythology isn't evidence. Thus...Horse-Feathers !
That is total nonsense! ...but what else can you expect from a poisoned mind?!? O.o
Dale,
Atheism is as good a pretext for doing evil as non-atheism (Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and other 'minor' past and present day atheists were/are rather productive too)). The only difference (technically speaking) is that non-atheists betray their 'theory' (beliefs that their gods will evil acts) , while the atheists do not. One can violate 'external rules', such as 'love your neighbor, but not the ones you make yourself. You can simply say (free to do so) that you temporarily suspended your rule instead of violating it.
Time spent on name calling (either side) would be better spent on working for the common good. Then we would not have either suspensions or violations of that (particular) rule.
Hitler was a catholic, as were most Nazi's. As a matter of fact, only one Nazi was ever excommunicated from the Catholic church, Joseph Goebbels. Not because he was a Nazi, but because he married a Protestant. Stalin was trained to be a priest. Atheist killers do have one major difference from religious killers, they never say they are killing because it is gods will.
How is atheist a pretext for anything? There is no goal in atheism, except perhaps a bit of honesty.
As an Atheist, I do wish Christopher Hitchens well. My "wish" is just as effective as a prayer. That is to say, totally ineffective on his actual health. CH will be much better off with an oncology doctor than a priest.
I do so enjoy listening to CH's rants.
And to tack on to Eric G's comment, I don't hate your "god" (he doesn't exist), I hate what followers of your gods do "in his name".
I'm not so sure what you mean by that, but yes there have been aweful things done all throughout history, and the people have said they did them in His name, but nothing of an evil nature whether it be the Crusades, Jewish genocide, extreme protests against abortion or sexuality, etc... are really acts of God. The people that do those use Him for the excuse they do them. They use God as a crutch, which is wrong. For me, the persuit of God is the persuit of ultimate truth and of love. There is nothing Godly about the evil things that have been done in His name. I know you don't believe, and that's your business. We all have free will for a reason right? The choice we make as far as what to believe is our own. You choose to believe in nothing as far as a higher power, nothing beyond this earth, beyond this life. Thats what you believe. I believe in God, and in His son. I believe 2000-ish years ago He was born of a virgin, and that 30-ish years later, after living a sinless life that He died on a cross for the sins of the entire world that existed before He was born, and the rest of the world to come. It's just what I believe what I believe, and you believe(or not beieive) what you do. Ultimately we are all searching for truth, good luck persuing yours man.
I sincerely hope Mr. Hitchens makes a full recovery. I never tire of hearing him speak, and I always find his books enlightening and entertaining. I feel that he is one of the greatest minds of our time, and it would be a shame to lose him. As far as the faithful praying for him, I see it as a well wish for him. No harm there. Whether prayer actually works or not, I find it heart warming that believers would wish him well since he is one of the most outspoken atheists of our time.
Kate,
.
I glanced at Wikipedia for various definitions. There is a 'hormones based one', probably of some use in biology. It kinda ranks the same my wife's love and our dog's.
Since one's personal belief, atheistic or non-atheistic, does not affect scientific results/findings, it is (logically?, probabilistically?) independent of science. Just my (subjective!) line of reasoning – till something of a higher level comes along.
Both, atheists and non-atheists should have a look at the high school geometry, the Parallel Axiom in particular. Both, the Axiom and its negation lead to consistent geometries, and one geometer does not deride the other.
Best wishes.
Why do believers think that, as an atheist, I hate their god? I don't hate your god. There is no verifiable evidence that he exists. I don't hate the tooth fairy either. I will say that even though they both share the same amount of proof of existence, I feel that the concept of the tooth fairy is much more benign than the concept of a god.
I think that Mr.Hitchens is big enough to appreciate that people who believe sincerely in prayer... will offer their prayers on his behalf, even when they do not agree with him. To care for someone, to wish them well, to pray for them is to be human.
As an atheist, I would accept good will from anyone, gladly. When I'm told people pray for me, I thank them for their good wishes. There is nothing in not believing in gods or goddesses that precludes graciously accepting the kind thoughts of our fellow humans in the form of prayers. If asked, I'm happy to explain why I have different views.If not...then thanks for being human enough to care. I shall do my most special tap dance for Mr. Hitchens speedy and complete recovery.
Kate,
I simply asked you about the scientific definition of 'love' (if one is on the books). A scientist, according to the figment of my imagination, should posses decent reading skills –
"So yeah, if you don't have a good working definition of what you are talking about, it's hard to get a repeatable test for it and it's hard for us to communicate about it effectively.".
"Who told you love and friendship were not a scientific 'concepts'? Both of those things have plenty of scientific evidence for their existence and a strong scientific reason for being.".
Silly me. Just because I never met the scientific definition of 'love', I assumed that there is not one (on the books). Totally unscientific.
So, what id the scientific definition of 'love'? Then we can start looking for the scientific evidence of it.
Oh dear, this Kate lady is suffering from some major delusions, time for a exorcism session.
1) You think you are special because you are a woman talking about science – WRONG
2) You hate God too much, which is obvious in your posts – LAME
3) You think you are clever by selectively referencing to science and scientist in your favor – NARCISSISTIC
Look, you can hate God as much as you want, but that does not mean He doesn't exists. Your personal problem, seems to me, is that God really exists, but that you don't like it. That's a real problem if you ask me. Whatever your reasons are for hating the Greater Good, I truly feel sorry for you, and I hope you will finish your crusade on the religious soon and attain to some mental peace at last!