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Religious event at Fort Bragg protested as violating constitutionEditor's Note: CNN Pentagon Producer Jennifer Rizzo brings us this story. WASHINGTON (CNN) - A watchdog group concerned with keeping apart religion and government is calling for the cancellation of an evangelical concert scheduled at Fort Bragg on Saturday. Americans United for Separation of Church and State said the "Rock the Fort" event, put on by the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, violates the Constitution and is targeting people for conversion. "It's not the Army's job to convert Americans to Christianity," said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United. "This event is totally unacceptable and must be canceled." The group sent a letter to Army officials on Thursday.
"Attendees will have an opportunity to respond to the Gospel Evangelistic message, be encouraged by Fort Bragg Chaplains and trained counselors from off post Churches and on post Chapels, and then be offered ongoing Biblical Spiritual Resiliency training at our military chapels and local churches," the information sheet said. According to the association's web site, other "Rock the Fort" concerts were held at Fort Jackson, Kentucky, in June and Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, last October. Graham's organization is planning to hold another event at Fort Jackson later this year. The event at Fort Bragg event will be different, however, because for the first time the event will be open to the entire community. Fort Bragg's chaplain, Col. David Hillis, sent a letter to surrounding area churches to invite their congregations to the event and ask for help with its organization. "Would you and your congregation join the Fort Bragg Unit Ministry Teams and me to be a crucial part of the success of this exciting outreach to the Fort Bragg community?" Hillis wrote. Hillis defended the event in an interview, saying it was within the bounds of military rules and that attendance is totally voluntary. Hillis said soldiers are not obligated to go and that he would be willing to provide similar support if another faith wanted to hold a similar event on base. In a message to earn support from the local churches, the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association posted that their involvement in the event should increase the size of their "congregation." "The Rock the Fort outreach is designed to channel new believers into your church, so you can encourage them to further spiritual growth. The future of the church lies in reaching and discipling the next generation," the post said. Americans United claims this type of evangelizing is going too far. "The Army has no business entering into a partnership with evangelical churches to help them win new members," Lynn said. – CNN Pentagon Correspondent Chris Lawrence contributed to this report |
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I'm concerned that there aren't more people talking about the real problem with this event... Christian rock us so awesome that I've actually lost my train of thought. See...I'm convinced that with the brilliant rock stylings and stage presence of headliners Hawk Nelson and Jason Crabb, the attendees will be so mesmerized by the bad-ass music that the message of their lord may well be drowned out... So worry not heathens...you'll live to fight another day...
HotAirAce
You would figure that after 2,000 years christians would figure out there are no gods
Why don' tyou just concern yourself with the fact you believe in none.
Don't worry with the thoughts as to wehter the rest of us has or hasn't figured out.
If we are wrong, we are in no worse shape then you when we die? You dig? If we are right, your in a mighty deep bunch of trouble!!
So enjoy your intelligent, godless life. Leave us dumb Christians alone!
To all the idiots.... It must be awful to know that there are NUMEROUS CHURCH SERVICES ON EVERY MILITARY INSTALLATION ALL OVER THE COUNTRY AND THE WORLD FOR THAT MATTER! Our Soldiers, Sailors, Airman and Marines worship and deserve a place to do it. They have several types of services to accommodate religious preference.... Why don't you self serving people mind your own business!
You would figure that after 2,000 years the whole discrimination and hatred against Christians fad would get old.
@sheetiron
Who is saying anything about 'hating' christians....? Please go to 'any' of the articles that relate to Islam, and you will definitely find 'real hatred and discrimination' going on..... Considering that this is 'allegedly' a quote-un-quote...'Christian Nation' ..majority.
So, I don't exactly know where you are coming from on this....?
Peace...
You would figure that after 2,000 years christians would figure out there are no gods...
@HotAirAce
Yes, my friend, there is that too...... But, I think they (christian/f\undies) would agree with you... "there are no (god's)"
They would say there is *only* 1 god..... Either way... I know what you are sayin' brother..
Peace...
Since its beginning, Christianity has always been the most persecuted religion in the world. I wont argue that too much seeing how it is ridiculous to argue and fight for the right to be recognized as the "Words Most Hated". This is not a "Christian Nation". Most of our founding fathers were not Christian. They were Deists at best. Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and John Adams all rejected the doctrine of Jesus being the messiah and the Son of God. Thomas Jefferson even created his own version of the NT where he removed any mention of Jesus being divine along with any account of miracles or the supernatural. He also spoke of the hopeful day when reason will cause America to regard such stories as mere "myths". Quite an interesting statement from out "Christian founding fathers" who sought to establish a "Christian Nation" dont you think?
Letter to Doctor Benjamin Rush from Thomas Jefferson
Washington, April 21, 1803
Dear Sir,– In some of the delightful conversations with you, in the evenings of 1798-99, and which served as an anodyne to the afflictions of of the crisis through which our country was then laboring, the Crhistain religion was sometimes our topic; and I the promised you, that one day or other, I would give you my views of it. They are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system umputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any on to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself any human execellence; and believing he never claimed any other.
The letter continues and is quite lengthy.
Any person who denies Jesus as the messiah and Son of God is not a Christian. In fact, the Bible calls such a person an Antichrist.
Psalm 2
1 Why do the nations rebel
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers conspire together
against the LORD and His Anointed One:
3 "Let us tear off their chains
and free ourselves from their restraints."
4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord ridicules them.
5 Then He speaks to them in His anger
and terrifies them in His wrath:
6 "I have consecrated My King
on Zion, My holy mountain."
7 I will declare the LORD's decree:
He said to Me, "You are My Son;
today I have become Your Father.
8 Ask of Me,
and I will make the nations Your inheritance
and the ends of the earth Your possession.
9 You will break them with a rod of iron;
You will shatter them like pottery."
10 So now, kings, be wise;
receive instruction, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with reverential awe,
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Pay homage to the Son, or He will be angry,
and you will perish in your rebellion,
for His anger may ignite at any moment.
All those who take refuge in Him are happy.
Blah, blah, blah, blah...
HotAirAce Aetheist Principle 1 – There are no gods, not even just 1, and no satan either, but there might be room for Wiccans or extraterrestials.
The preceding has as much validity as anything written in any bible or other religious book of silliness.
Oh come along please. The Graham Religious Empire is utter charlatans and business making and a great and luxurious lifestyle for the head honchos, Billy Na Son. Both are politicians into manupulation and lies. You have to study these things to see thru these things. But, if you want to fall for a nutcase pandering to your emotional-support-losses, go ahead. Go ahead and feed the endless head-sprouting monster, called montheism..See what it does to muslims ? Billy & Son are not that far off the same extreme$ $ $ $ $ $...A right pair of liars, charlatans, con-men telling scary tales to children..
repent ye sinner and donate your wealth in generous denominations and ye shall be saved from wickedness and evil. loooooooooooooooooool
I am curious as to any 'first hand' accounts of the this event.....?
Peace....
So what happened yesterday? Any first hand observations? Any base dwellers that were forced to go? Any protestors – for or against? Any spontaneous conversions? Is there a pile of no longer required crutches and wheelchairs marking the spot of this event?
I want Slayer to come play at Elmendorf Air Force Base, but i bet they wont let that happen.
This is not right. It is a concert. How is this putting together religion and government? It's not. People have a right to worship. Fort Bragg was paid by tax dollars and if they are not breaking any laws then they should be allowed to have a concert there. This is a problem for people of all religions because this could happen to any one.
I am so sick of listening to people bashing Christians. This country was founded by Christians, for Christians. And because of the Christian beleif that "all" people have the right to chose their own faith, Christians are being chastized constantly. We don't have a problem with what you chose to beleive. As long as you respect our right also. And if you live in this country, you should recognize that most of the population recognizes the Christian faith as it's own. If your Muslim, fine, if your'e Buddist, fine. If your an aetheist, ok. Your choice. But ya know if you go into another country, say an Islamic country, you get killed for professing your beleif. At least here you don't get dead! You just get some fool saying,,"Hey, you can't do that"
But guess what,, yes you can. Ya know what I would find interesting is how many people would attend an "aetheist concert" Come on down people, I'll tell ya all about what idiots you have been for your entire life. Oh, and refreshments are provided! Even the Nazis beleive in GOD!
Interesting...I suppose if you go back to the original settlers, you could then say that the country was "founded" in a way by Christians. Of course that would contradict the "right to choose their own faith" aspect, as it should be well known that there was plenty of conversion by the sword/gun in those days. It wasn't just limited to the Conquistadors in South America. If we instead look to the actual Founding Fathers, you'll find that most of them were Deists, who may or may not have believed that there had been some creator god, but not one who so forcibly intervened in human affairs as Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah. Certainly they had good reason to implement the First Amendment as it was, given the history of religious persecution in England, but they absolutely did not intend for anyone to consider the country a Christian nation.
@Noble9 re: question so how much Chaplains get paid. They are Officers in the military and receive the required military training to achieve their rank. They wear rank therefore they are paid at the military grade/rank that they wear. Military pay charts are public and can be found via Google. They must be ordained in their religious faith and be released by their religious leadership to serve in the military. They ARE military! (USAF, 8 yrs)
I can't believe this is even a CNN story. With unemployment staying at 9 1/2 percent, 2 wars, and tne mid-term elections coming up, how many Americans does CNN think really care about this? This is why CNN is dead-last in the cable news channel ratings.
I'm amazes me that they're talking about separation of church and state now when God is all over the government and that's wrong.
Perhaps all the nonbelievers should meditate seriously on these Biblical passages. The punishment for not worshipping the true God is DEATH. Repent now, the end is near!!!
Deuteronomy 17:12
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.
2 Chronicles 15:12-13
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
Deuteronomy 17:2-5
Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.
Deuteronomy 13:13-19
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.
What a charming selection of passages. Sounds pretty much like what someone would write to make sure offerings of money (had to edit that out, tried to submit it earlier with the proper word, but it contained a series of three letters that commonly refer to a part of female anatomy...go go gadget super modern CNN moderation algorithms!) go to their church and not others. Not to mention that "the end is near" has been ranted on about since the supposed days of Jesus' disciples.
Here's a hot news flash for you (alledged TRUE Christian), the "reward" for participating in life is death. When will you believers learn that quoting scriptures at atheists has absolutely no effect – we have discounted your "books of silliness" and relegated them to the trash bin. If you must try to recruit us, please try something more convincing...
Are you one of those Westboro Baptist Church heathens? You guys just won't go away!! Isn't there some kind of spray we can put on you?
@ TRUE Christian: Don't you usually post under the name NewsWire1?
CNN you seem to be supporting Muslims more than Christians. Christians have freedom of religion also!!!
T = Terrorists
E = Endangering
A = America
Party which also equals the Dominionists (Those crazy religious right wing nuts, yes christians, who want to make America into a Theocracy.)
I guess the proof will be in the pudding when Muslims get base support to hold a mega rally of their own. Then you can judge CNN on the fairness of it's reportage, right?
Since this is being held on government property, how much tax payer money is going towards this event (i.e., security, facility use, etc., etc.)?
I would imagine that very little comes from the taxpayers for this event. Security would more than likely be provided for by the MPs or the civilian contractor police force that works on most military installations now, so other than basic miniscule amounts related to the security necessities and administrative costs, probably next to nothing is coming from the taxpayers.
My guess is that the Graham Association is paying for a vast majority of the event, if not all of it entirely.
I could understand being "anti-event" if this was taxpayer-funded, but in that case, I would be against it purely because of that, not because it's a religious event.
Just to add, a majority of, if not all of these events or concerts are funded by sponsors volunteering their services and money to support these events. If you look at an advertisement for an event held on a military installation, the first thing you'll notice is all of the corporate sponsors at the bottom. The same goes for USO events. This is why they ask for donations, and operate as a not-for-profit organization. And this very reason is why I'm led to believe the event is paid entirely for by the Graham Association....they don't list sponsors anywhere on their site for the event, and nor does the MWR's site.
Events like these religious or not are paid for by MWR which is funded by donations and fundraisers. Most bands or entertainment donate their time and do not charge anything. As far as the MPs they may be there but they are paid the same as all other soldiers. The pay does not change unless they are deployed or are in training for more than 29 days.
Yes, you're right, MPs are paid just like every other soldier. However, the fuel isn't free, the maintenance upkeep of the equipment/vehicles/etc. aren't free, the meals required to feed the soldiers aren't free....I could keep going on about what we as taxpayers DO have to pay for. And I haven't even mentioned private DoD contractors who provide a good amount of the security on most military installations.
Wait...did you even read my post? I said everything you just said...darn!
Seriously, who cares. It's a concert that IS sponsored by the MWR, is completely voluntary (believe me, if anyone were FORCED to go, heads would roll), and can be easily avoided by traversing the various roads and pathways which cross Fort Bragg and it's surrounding areas, via car, truck, or foot. Religious events are held on post ALL THE TIME, and NO ONE is obligated or required to attend. The military is quite different from civilian life, but we still have our freedoms. Freedom of or from religion is one of them.
A soldier's job is to kill in the name of government.
Religion has no place except for to help soldiers to come to terms with thier obligation to kill.
The probelm is that religion has no place at all if the soldier does not want it to. Unfortunately som miitary leader use coersion and force it upon their soldier regardless of fatih or lack thereof.
Oh, by the way, I have 21 years in the US military (Army and Army Guard) and I have never killed anyone (though many times I wanted to while standing in formation listening to a prayer...). In fact, more often than not I have done the opposite, as I have spent two thirds of my career in medevac units. I fix helicopters....that go save people. Not every solider is a killer and not every airman is a pilot.
pkfops – Your comment and generalization has no merit in this conversation. Not all soldiers are put into the position of defending themselves and their comrades with capital force. Also, you miss the point of religion overall. Religion, especially when it comes to the military, is to provide not only comfort in stressful situations but also reinforce the morals and beliefs that keep the soldier from killing you just for spouting stupidity and idiotic mantras. In other words they are taught, no matter what faith or non-faith, that it is your right to say dumb things and that they will die defending that right. For some, religion just reminds them of that so they don't just shoot you.
Well, after 21 years of Army experience (and I'm still in), I can tell you that I have been forced to attend many events that soldiers were "not required" to go to. Oh, they don't say "you have to go", they say, "it would behoov you to go", or "the commander expects 100 percent participation" or "you don't have to go, but it may reflect badly upon you in the eyes of the chain of command". My favorite is "you can not go if you don't want to, but it not bode well for your next NCOER" (Non commisioned Officer Evaluation Report, which directly affects promotions for NCOs).
More than people realise, non-religious persons are forced to endure the bs that religious military leaders push on us. There should not be a prayer read at every military ceremony. A moment of silence would be good enough, and could be used by each person in attendance to pray or remember fallen comrads or relatives.
You, my good sir, are a fool. In my 11 years of service, I have NEVER EVER been forced to attend/assist/voluntold to go to ANY blatantly religious event. You're right, there are always going to be times when leaders will tell their NCOs that they need max participation to show unit cohesion and so there are enough soldiers to take care of details that the unit has been asked to perform, and if a soldier doesn't want to go, then they'll be back at the battalion mopping the latrines or doing other work that needs to be done. However, those times are when a unit has been slotted to support an event, like an open house, or a 4th of July event, for example. We've had many religious concerts and such occur at my base, and believe me, if anyone were ever coerced to attend against their will, then the door always opens for EO to step in. I've met many stupid senior leaders, but I've never met any stupid enough to walk right into that kind of trouble.
And hence why I called you a fool. If you were forced to attend a blatantly religious event, and didn't report that through the appropriate channels (Equal Opportunity, CoC, etc.), then you let it happen to yourself. Live with it and learn from your mistake. 21 years in the military obviously taught you nothing.
Never saw any such thing during the years–1975 thru 1982–that I served in the U.S. Army. Never even SAW a chaplain, save in passing, much less had one tell me I "should" attend any sort of service. Nor did any NCO or officer say or imply any such thing. I've heard the claim before, yet never have seen a lick of proof.