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Freed Chilean miners return to 'Camp Hope' for Mass
October 18th, 2010
12:40 AM ET

Freed Chilean miners return to 'Camp Hope' for Mass

About a dozen or so of the 33 miners freed in Chile this week after spending more than two months underground returned Sunday to the mouth of the mine to offer thanks during a private Mass.

For many of the miners, it was the first time back since their dramatic Wednesday rescue that was watched by the world.

Just the miners, their families and a handful of local officials were invited to attend the service.

Read the full story

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Catholic Church • Chile • South America

soundoff (32 Responses)
  1. chickencindy92

    there is now a book with messages for the miners from the facebook fans

    October 26, 2010 at 12:41 am |
  2. Peter F

    @David Johnson

    All right, thanks for directing me back. Lost this article in the shuffle of old posts.

    You got some logical fallacies going on there. First off God creating and evolution are not mutually exclusive. I am a believer who finds evolution (Intelligent Design if you will) much more credible than the 7 day Creation argument. That's a sub-point, however. Now, I was saying it is not HELPFUL for us to think about who God chooses and why each person is chosen because we cannot and will never be able to comprehend the mind of God. Everyone dies, and God knows the timing for each and every one of us, but we don't. Fact of life/death. So why try to tackle it if it is completely beyond us?

    A good portion of your most recent post assumes outright that I am a Creationist, so I am not sure how to respond to your assertions. You can re-question me if you want, although I would recommend doing so in a more recent article so I can get into it more easily. As far as God sending people to hell... well, it is essentially the sinner – the one who is rebellious, refusing to allow God's grace to enter in. It is refusing the goodness that God has freely given, and in so doing, rejecting the life that comes as a result of that grace.

    You also assume that evil and suffering is a teaching tool meant for anyone. May I ask why you assert that?

    I know you're going to say I'm deflecting all of your arguments, and that may be the case, but I think a lot of the questions you pose are misguided and poorly thought out. If there is something that you'd really like me to address, then ask it. But do so clearly and directly. I'm not going to post 4 pages at once trying to address a whole bunch of questions that are all over the place. LOL

    Blessings!

    Peter F

    October 24, 2010 at 2:44 am |
  3. Frank

    Thanks.

    October 20, 2010 at 12:34 am |
    • Peace2All

      @Frank & Peter F

      Yikes..!!!! How did I end up in the kool-aid drinkin' makin' no sense whatsoever believer infested corner...?

      October 20, 2010 at 12:42 am |
    • Frank

      Because we have the best punch? πŸ˜‰ Zing! *rimshot*

      October 20, 2010 at 12:45 am |
    • Peter F

      Just curious, Frank... but what's your denominational background? (I'm a geek, I like to know these things, hehe)

      October 20, 2010 at 12:50 am |
    • Frank

      I'm Catholic. I converted a few years ago.
      How about you? πŸ™‚

      October 20, 2010 at 12:53 am |
    • Peter F

      Evangelical Protestant at a Brethren seminary... In other words, I don't know what I believe. πŸ˜‰

      October 20, 2010 at 12:57 am |
    • Frank

      Lol. I can relate. We're all just on a journey. That's all I can say.

      October 20, 2010 at 12:59 am |
  4. Frank

    Sounds nice.
    I don't think it's about being happy that God 'spared them', I think it's more about being happy that they're still alive and praising God for it. It's about being thankful for every breath you take. At least that's my take on it.

    October 20, 2010 at 12:27 am |
    • Peter F

      Good word, sir.

      October 20, 2010 at 12:29 am |
  5. Peter F

    @Peace2all

    Maybe I wasn't quite clear in what I said. What I'm trying to communicate here is that people die all the time... yes? It happens. It is to be expected. Even though the Chilean miners survived in that mine underground for so long, they will also die someday. I think to lash out against God for having some people die when others don't is silly to begin with since we ALL die at one time or another, but I digress. What I'm saying is that God chooses who he chooses and we cannot attempt to understand the "why's" of God. To do that would to be superhuman. However, God does what he does with perfectly good reasons... and I was implying that the strengthened spirit, the impressive resolve, the increased love, and the hope of the miners are all very positive results of their time below the surface. There are GOOD things that came from this experience aside from the mere fact they survived. I see the whole event as miraculous in and of itself.

    @David Johnson

    Death itself is the biggest piece of evidence to the world's brokenness.

    October 19, 2010 at 1:38 pm |
    • Peace2All

      @Peter F

      Hey Peter...

      I understand... No one is lashing out at 'god'... Yes, of course, we all die, etc... And, I understand your assertion that good things happened from this experience, etc...

      So, if I am understanding you. Your answer to the question posed by Me and David, ... as to your opinion on the matter is:

      You believe that..."God chooses, by some method, who is going to die, when and where and under which ci-r-c-u-m-stances.

      The salient piece of your opinion is that .. God 'chooses'.... Is that correct...?

      1)God chooses.....

      2)We, for whatever reason "cannot attempt" to understand the "why's" of God.

      3)And..."God, does what 'he' does with perfectly good reasons."

      Peter, do you not see the shear 'fill in the gaps' with a God argument....? Do you not truly see the *self-sealing* structure of your assertion....?

      Everything in life is somehow chosen by God, therefore we cannot even begin to question or understand, and 'his' reasons are perfectly good/just, etc...

      I mean..... how can we even debate this, when you are claiming into evidence a personal belief system, that is -self-sealing- with no proof, as FACT....?

      Again, always curious.... You asked me to keep throwing the questions out to ya'...!

      October 19, 2010 at 5:12 pm |
    • David Johnson

      You said, "Even though the Chilean miners survived in that mine underground for so long, they will also die someday. I think to lash out against God for having some people die when others don't is silly to begin with since we ALL die at one time or another"

      I think it is silly to praise a god that allows the Chilean miners to survive, while apparently killing or allowing to suffer, all the others I listed.

      The fact that the Chilean miners survived seems to be being celebrated and is being attributed to god. It appears to have greater meaning, than you would have it mean in your above statement. You know, everybody dies, no big deal. LOL

      You still have the problem of suffering. Why does god allow suffering? If you give god credit for the sunshine, doesn't he also get credit for the rain?

      So god is responsible for the following just in the last 10 years:
      Where were these people's miracle? Why did god not allow them to survive?

      2004 Indian Ocean tsunami (approx. 230,000 killed)
      2005 Hurricane Katrina (approx. 1,836 killed)
      2005 Kashmir earthquake (approx. 79,000)
      2008 Cyclone Nargis, Myanmar (at least 146,000 killed)
      2008 Sichuan earthquake (approx. 87,400)
      Other Smaller Disasters:
      2003 Bam earthquake, Iran (30,000)
      2001 Gujarat earthquake, India, Pakistan (20,000)
      2006 Bantul earthquake, Indonesia (5,800)
      2001 Floods and landslides, Brazil (5,100)
      2007 Cyclone Sidr, Bangladesh, India (4,200)
      2004 Floods, Haiti, Dominican Republic (3,350)
      So god has killed ~ 613,000 humans in the last decade. These were men, women, children and babies.

      You said, "What I'm saying is that God chooses who he chooses and we cannot attempt to understand the "why's" of God. To do that would to be superhuman. However, God does what he does with perfectly good reasons..."

      If God exists, we must have evidence that all of the evils we see are means to a higher purpose. All the pain and suffering should have the purpose of teaching. But even fundies admit there is no evidence. That is why they must resort to talking about the mysterious ways in which God works. There's no evidence at all, that 300 to 500 million people dying from Smallpox in the 20th century, is for a greater good. No evidence that all the people who died in the disasters I listed, died for a greater purpose.

      As William Rowe points out, when a fawn burns to death in a forest fire and no human being ever knows about it, this apparently unnecessary evil does nothing to build the character of human beings. It is just suffering.

      You said, "I was implying that the strengthened spirit, the impressive resolve, the increased love, and the hope of the miners are all very positive results of their time below the surface. There are GOOD things that came from this experience aside from the mere fact they survived. I see the whole event as miraculous in and of itself."

      I'm sure the rescued miners and their loved one"s feelings are positive. Believers see a miracle in everything, and welcome any "proof" of their god.

      But, what about the feelings of the people who lost loved ones in disasters? Why were their prayers not heard? I think there might be very negative feelings coming from the non-rescued families.
      Anything positive that came from declaring this a supernatural rescue, is overshadowed by the negative feelings generated in the loved ones of the non-survivors.

      One more cool example:

      Faith and the Sago Coal Mine Disaster.
      13 men were buried deep in the W. Va coal mine. A frantic effort was made to save the men.
      The families of the trapped miners gathered in the local Baptist church. Waiting and praying. Always praying.
      A message came up from the rescue team. The trapped miners had been found. They were all alive!
      The Baptist preacher announced, "There was indeed a god in West Virginia!"
      The people in the church began to weep and praise god. More people came to the little church, waiting on the saved miners.
      Someone voiced the opinion that the floor of the church might not hold up, to all he weight of the people.
      The people rejected the danger. If god could save the miners, he could hold up the floor with his mighty hand.
      And then another message came up from the rescue team. There had been a mistake. Of the 13 miners, only 1 was alive.
      The people now sheepish, moved off the overloaded floor. The preacher stood silently.
      A few of the people gave up on religion. Some tried to find a miracle in the fact one man had survived. Had their god not saved him?
      The doctors pointed out, that the man who lived was young. The other men were well over 40. The younger man's heart was just stronger. No miracle could be claimed.

      People pray for their, or their loved one's survival, all the time. A few times, the people praying, or being prayed for, will survive. It is just coincidence. Random chance and coincidence explain not only the miner's survival, but the people who do not survive.

      You said, "Death itself is the biggest piece of evidence to the world's brokenness."

      I assume you mean broken, because Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge. So god created disease. He constructed the tick and the flea, and the tape worm and the mosquito. He caused the animals to prey on one another. God did this to teach...what lesson, to the subsequent generations? The desire for knowledge is evil? Just read your bible and believe? What lesson?
      But some say man did it to ourselves. Really? Did these things spontaneously generate as the fruit was chewed? So when a person is placed under the lash or upon the rack, he brought it upon himself? No matter how hideous the penalty, the person applying the punishment bears no guilt? Did no one fashion the lash or devise the rack?

      If death is evidence of a broken world, then I must ask, who broke it?

      Happy Trails Pardner!

      October 19, 2010 at 6:23 pm |
    • Peter F

      @David Johnson and Peace2all

      To a certain extent, I think both of you are reading things into my statements that were never intended to be there in the first place. I can clarify, clarify again, and clarify some more... but it won't make a huge deal unless we stick to the key issues here. Obviously, we are coming from different perspectives and that will affect how the other views the subject matter... anyway...

      Peace,

      The problem here is that you've already made up your mind. While I'm not saying that there is no scientific evidence for God, I do think it is interesting that the atheist, agnostic and naturalist begin to disprove God by trying to use science as a means to measure and quantify Him, as if the Lord, the Creator of the universe were a finite being – measurable and quantifiable to begin with. That being the case, right from the get-go you are ruling out the possibility of God simply by demanding that he become less than science. I've always said that God employs science – science does not employ God. It would seem that your perception of what we Christians see as God is much, much, much, much more limited than he actually is. Even for me, a believer, I acknowledge that God's expansiveness is beyond anything my mind can rationalize.

      So perhaps we can discuss and debate, but I will never be able to give you a way to take God into a laboratory, prove he exists and end this discussion. And to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't want to! Anything that WE can classify, categorize or name is finite, limited, certainly not all-encompassing as I believe God to be.

      Moving on to the idea of God "choosing" who lives and who dies. I don't think I said that he decided it was time for Person A to die while Person B will live. I don't think that is a helpful way to perceive God's role in natural disasters and/or diseases. Perhaps I can bring Dave's point into the discussion here, too. God created the tick and the tapeworm, Smallpox and all that other stuff that was mentioned. Sure... in a sense. It is a curse, a production of our disobedience toward God. In the worldview of the believer, we were meant to share eternity with God from the beginning without death or disease or any such curse. (That is why I say death is evidence of our broken world). God didn't choose for us to disobey and curse the world. We cursed it ourselves. It seems to me as you're thinking a just God would simply create heaven on earth and have us live there – Well he did! And we messed it up! As a result, we are not living in a holy place. There is so much destruction and death around here, whether from human hands or from the power of nature. That is how it is. But I would claim that it is our fault, not God's. Thankfully, I believe God to be a god of reconciliation. He heals not only his people, but the world in which we live, nature itself. And only by trusting in God and submitting to his authority over us, can original, perfect life be restored.

      Come to think of it, I think a lot of that addressed DJ's post. If you have anything to bring me back to, go for it. I tried to hit all the key themes.

      Blessings, y'all. Loving this discussion!

      Peter F

      October 20, 2010 at 12:17 am |
    • Peace2All

      @Peter F

      There is certainly a lot there to think about for all of us. Well, I can't speak for David, I think I know how and what he would say, basically to your post, and...... since there is a lot there, it is getting late, and I am going to zzzzzzzzzz sleep.

      If/when i get some time, I will see if I can circle back around to this...

      Take care Peter...

      October 20, 2010 at 12:57 am |
    • Raison

      @David Johnson and Peace2all

      Wow. I thought DJ's post up top was great, but you guys have really outdone yourselves...or doesn't that make sense?
      Impressed right down to my toenails. And I am also glad to see I'm not the only one getting long-winded! πŸ˜€

      A bazillion internets for you guys. This is not much of a reward, but I hope it is better than nothing...?
      I will take a shot at Peter F, as he still does not use logic or clear reasoning in his responses, yet he is doing pretty well for all that. πŸ˜€

      October 20, 2010 at 3:21 am |
    • Raison

      @Peter F

      I am going on up ahead to post. Sorry.

      October 20, 2010 at 4:25 am |
    • David Johnson

      @Peter F

      You said, "Moving on to the idea of God "choosing" who lives and who dies. I don't think I said that he decided it was time for Person A to die while Person B will live. I don't think that is a helpful way to perceive God's role in natural disasters and/or diseases."

      Umm...Sorry Peter in your above post you said: "I think to lash out against God for having some people die when others don't is silly to begin with since we ALL die at one time or another, but I digress. What I'm saying is that God chooses who he chooses and we cannot attempt to understand the "why's" of God. To do that would to be superhuman."
      So god chooses. Yes?

      You said, "God created the tick and the tapeworm, Smallpox and all that other stuff that was mentioned. Sure... in a sense."

      No, not in a sense. Either god created them, or they evolved. Right? Creationists say that animals did not prey on other animals before the "fall". So, evidently god caused the jaws and teeth and digestive systems to change, to allow them to be predators and prey. In the case of disease, god must have also given man an immune system. Except science tells us there have always been predators and prey. Hmm... Evolution would certainly explain these things. The Creation story does not.
      Science shows tons of transitional species and organisms have genes that are vestiges from previous more primitive organisms. So if the Creation story is not true, then there was no original sin. No disobedience. No fall from grace.

      You said, "God didn't choose for us to disobey and curse the world. We cursed it ourselves."

      I restate once again:
      You say man did it to ourselves. Really? Did these things spontaneously generate as the fruit was chewed? So when a person is placed under the lash or upon the rack, he brought it upon himself? No matter how hideous the penalty, the person applying the punishment bears no guilt? Did no one fashion the lash or devise the rack?
      Didn't god determine the severity of the curse? If not who did?

      This is like the fundie claim, that god doesn't send you to hell, you send yourself to hell. Pfui! Make no mistake. God sends people to hell, to burn for all eternity. But as Carlin would say, "He loves us".

      You have not answered why there is such an abundance of suffering, if there is an all powerful, all good god? You seem to indicate that the sole reason for evil and suffering, is because man is being punished for our ancestor's disobedience. If there is no purpose, no lessons being learned, then why can you call god good? If man's suffering has no purpose, then it is just pure vengeance. Pain and suffering for its own sake. How can you call god good?

      I restate once again:
      If God exists, we must have evidence that all of the evils we see are means to a higher purpose. All the pain and suffering should have the purpose of teaching. But even fundies admit there is no evidence. That is why they must resort to talking about the mysterious ways in which God works.

      Is this not true? Remember your statement: "we cannot attempt to understand the "why's" of God. To do that would to be superhuman."

      Even if, evil and suffering is a teaching tool, A good God would only allow as much evil or suffering as is absolutely necessary in order to achieve a greater purpose. Any suffering above that necessary to learn, would be overkill. But when we look at the world around us, we find prevalent instances of apparently gratuitous evilβ€”pointless suffering from which no greater purpose seems to result. Free will has nothing to do with a flood or earthquake or tsunami, or any other natural disaster. So suffering isn't just a question of letting us learn from our free will mistakes.

      If here is a God, a caring God, then we have to figure he's done an extraordinary job of making a very cruel world – Dave Mathews

      I can and do explain suffering, through natural processes. Diseases evolve. Disasters happen. People do bad things. In the case of disasters, Who lives and who dies is is largely a matter of random chance and coincidence.

      When the explosion occurred, Billy Bob was going to the toilet. He was the only survivor. Miracle? Nope.
      When the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, there were survivors. A woman might have been fetching a jar of pickles from her basement, when the bomb went off. Miracle? Nope.

      What other factor might play a major role in who survives?

      Safety precautions taken before accident occurs. Like the SAFE ROOM, that saved the Chilean miner's lives. Early warning systems for a tsunamis. Like seat belts and children's car seats. Like good ventilation and checking for methane buildup in coal mines. Modern technology and know how.

      If, in one mining accident, the miners survive, while in another mining accident, the people die, how can you declare any miracle occurred? What natural laws were bent or broken in the Chilean mining accident? What is your criteria? Because it makes people feel good to believe it was supernatural? Is that your metric for miracles? You declare it, and it is so? LOL

      Are you not declaring the people who perished in West Virginia unworthy of god's love and mercy? By saying the Chilean miners received a miracle, do you not cause a child in West Virginia to wonder why his Grandpa was not also saved? But, that is okay. We will tell the boy it is god's will.

      No, Peter. You did not answer my questions.

      October 20, 2010 at 11:10 am |
  6. David Johnson

    I don't see anyone in their spiffy T-shirts...

    October 18, 2010 at 9:20 am |
    • Raison

      @David Johnson
      They are probably in the wash...

      October 18, 2010 at 9:40 am |
  7. Raison

    I just like the idea of sunlight and feeling a real breeze after being stuck underground for so long like that.

    It also reminds me that I have spent too much time at my computer...!

    October 18, 2010 at 2:47 am |
  8. Peter F

    Wow, it's remarkable how people see God in such fresh ways after suffering tragedy/loss and are at their lowest point. Reminds me of good 'ol Psalm 23 – God is with us even when we feel as if everything has gone to ruin and we've got no hope left. I'm sure these miners were thinking along those lines during their time below ground... such an encouragement.

    October 18, 2010 at 1:11 am |
    • David Johnson

      @Peter F

      You said, "Reminds me of good 'ol Psalm 23 – God is with us even when we feel as if everything has gone to ruin and we've got no hope left."

      Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of a catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving god while this same God drowned infants in their cribs. – Sam Harris

      October 18, 2010 at 12:40 pm |
    • Peter F

      That's interesting that atheists would claim moral authority when to them there is no such thing as objective moral values... The fact that God saves anyone to begin with is more than we deserve.

      October 18, 2010 at 3:47 pm |
    • David Johnson

      You said, "The fact that God saves anyone to begin with is more than we deserve"

      Don't let this concern you. God doesn't save anyone. It is all a matter of random chance and coincidence.

      October 16, 2010
      An explosion in a Chinese coal mine has killed 21 miners in central Henan province, state media reported.
      The accident occurred at 6am local time in a pit owned by Pingyu Coal and Electric based in Yuzhou city and rescue operations were under way, the Xinhua news agency said.
      Rescuers have located 16 trapped miners but must clear tonnes of coal dust from the mine shaft to reach them, Xinhua cited a rescue spokesman as saying. It wasn't clear if the miners were alive or how far underground they were trapped.

      It is good, and I am most happy the miners are alive. But while the Chilean miners were rescued, during the same 24 hour time period, God allowed the following to happen:

      According to UNICEF, 22,000 children died due to poverty. And they β€œdied quietly in some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny and the conscience of the world. Where was their miracle?

      Almost 5,500 people died due to AIDS. Where was their miracle?

      1500 people lives were taken by cancer. Where was their miracle?

      About 2600 people died of cardiovascular disease. Where was their miracle?

      These people died, while the 33 miners received a miracle?

      Thousands have died in disasters. Where was their miracle?

      We should all remember, that while something happens good in our lives, something bad is happening elsewhere.

      The miners lived because of modern technology.

      Your god has no clothes, Peter. He stands before freethinkers shamed and impotent.

      Vote for the Dems in November!

      Happy Trail Pardner!

      October 18, 2010 at 10:16 pm |
    • Peter F

      I'm not sure why you are pointing all these things out. We all know the world is messed up and "broken" in many ways. People die everyday, whether of diseases, natural disasters, old age, etc. It happens. It's part of this earthly life. But cool things happen where faith in God exists. You see the miners' survival as coincidence while I see it as a testament to God's goodness. However, how do you account for their renewed spirit, the joy they have for life, instead of the resentment they could have felt. Maybe that is a tough idea for an atheist to grasp. I don't know.

      But back to the question on morality... how do you deal with that? No atheist has ever given me a good response on objective morality. By nature, you CANNOT affirm that it exists if you do not believe in any deity.

      I vote for the Dems already, thank you very much!

      Blessings!

      October 19, 2010 at 3:12 am |
    • Peace2All

      @Peter F

      Hey Peter..! Hope all is well....?

      I am curious as to your perspective, as I was not sure you actually answered David's assertion or question. Seems like maybe you 'deflected' and did not answer it and moved the conversation to something else.

      Again, maybe I am wrong here..i.e.. missed you point.

      So.... You said...." I am not sure why you are pointing all of these things out. We all know the world is broken and messed up in many ways. People die everyday, etc..etc... It happens. It is part of life. But cool things happen where faith in God exists."

      ME-- So, what are you saying exactly...? What about all of the other disasters that happen all over the world everyday, where people die horrible tragic deaths, or have horrific lives, etc... Are you suggesting that 'only' the Chilean Miners, and people that truly have 'faith in God' are the one's where good things happen...i.e... (escape from the mine)....? Suggesting that all the thousands that die everyday, were not worthy of being saved...?

      Again, it just seemed like you kinda' glossed over that. I sincerely would love to hear your thoughts about.."God's goodness" seemingly given to some.... But, why...? And what is God's criteria...?

      Curious....

      And again... hope that all is well. How is the sem-i-n-ary going....?

      October 19, 2010 at 3:30 am |
    • David Johnson

      @Peter F

      You said, "You see the miners' survival as coincidence while I see it as a testament to God's goodness."

      Peace2All replied to you, as I would have. I would like to add, that you are really making my case for me. If the Chilean miners survival is a testament to god's goodness, what must the deaths be a testament to?

      The world is not broken. It works as it must.

      October 19, 2010 at 9:56 am |
    • Peter F

      @Peace2all and David Johnson

      See post at the bottom.

      October 19, 2010 at 1:39 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @Peter F

      Answer to your red herring argument:
      You asked, "But back to the question on morality... how do you deal with that? No atheist has ever given me a good response on objective morality. By nature, you CANNOT affirm that it exists if you do not believe in any deity."

      Peter, there are no set rules for behavior that cannot be changed. No objective morality. All morality is relative. Subjective.

      Our morals evolved along with our intellect. We learn our morals from our parents. Society stamps every individual with its concepts. If you were born in U. S., you have many Christian concepts whether you are religious or not. The people of Iran have Muslim concepts.

      Nothing is always right or always wrong. War, killing, is wrong, but if you have a Hitler in the world, it is not as wrong as allowing him to continue killing. Abortion is wrong. But it is less wrong than giving birth to a baby conceived in in_cest or ra_pe. Or to a mother who has no means to provide for it.

      Society must decide what they will allow and not allow, based on an action"s effect on society. Gay marriage has no bad effect on society. It should be allowed. Murder has a very negative impact on society. It should not be allowed.

      Notice how god is not needed for any of these decisions?

      Happy Trails!

      October 19, 2010 at 4:46 pm |
    • Raison

      @David Johnson

      Wow! 😯 That is one damn good post! Dude, you rock! I am sorry I did not see it before, but I have not come back this far for a while. It is not on the short list, and so I didn't come back until things had slowed down.
      That is a keeper. Copy and paste that one once in a while, if you like that sort of idea. I prefer off-the-cuff answers, but maybe you would like to try Reality's methods?
      Anyway, I'm impressed as usual. Sorry not to see you around as much. Without you and Kate, the group becomes too serious, as I often have a hard time making jokes at certain times...
      Thanks for letting us read that. πŸ˜€

      October 20, 2010 at 3:09 am |
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