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Prominent Jerusalem rabbi warns of religion's limitsFrom CNN's Izzy Lemberg in Jerusalem: I recently ran into David Hartman, a prominent philosopher and Orthodox rabbi, at a Jerusalem café and asked what he was working on. He said he's trying to understand if religion is in fact helpful to the human condition. Hartman has long been a provocative figure. His Jerusalem-based Shalom Hartman Institute has engaged in such controversial work as the Orthodox ordination of women rabbis, a practice that most Orthodox Jews reject. The institute also runs programs to improve understanding between Jews of diverse backgrounds and to foster a more pluralistic and tolerant Israeli society. And it promotes dialogue between Jews, Christians and Muslims. The author of many books on Jewish philosophy, his next one – titled "The God Who Hates Lies: Rethinking Jewish Law” – is sure to stir controversy in Orthodox circles. It challenges the idea that the authority of Jewish law must always trump personal morality. I interviewed him in his Jerusalem office.
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How amazing that God would allow some to hear the gospel!!!
@NL...ok NL...I apologize if thats what you think. Yes, it can come from both directoins. Mayby I was wrong in my assessment of what was said. Is that sufficient?
SumDude...I wasn't even gone to reply to you. Reading what you said in your comment, was very ignorant, and s*xually implied
Sum Dude
@HotAirAce
Mebbe she wants some of that hot lovin' from behind...! (and why did you think she was talking at you?)
I will say prayers for you. I forgive you.
I have a 4 year old who was very sick. He has asthma and has a chest cold and was running a fever. I had to take him to the doctors. Not that you would care.
I don't need to garner any support, this is a blog .
HotAirAce Thank you for your reply to my post. I appreciate, very sincerely at that, your kind words. Please forgive me if I offended you. I can tell you are a nice person, and should I post at another time, would like to converse with you, as on friendly terms. You have a nice day.
JBook... Sorry you find me ignorant to the point of being astounding.
I never said all Jews say the same, You asked about this specific Jewish Rabbi...and I was stating what I know to be fact, as to what the Jewish belief is. If I am wrong about that, please show me where. Do Jews believe in an afterlife?
I never said they were invalid, I never said "all jews".
I have a Jewish friend, and according to what she tells me, they do not believe in an afterlife.
I said that listening to what he said did not impress me. I said too, that it was like listening to what I read that the athiest bellieves, but I never called it "invalid". Can you show me where I used the words "invalid"? I try to be as open minded as I can. I really just disagreed with the Jewish Rabbi, thats all.
Carol-
Thank you.
I was hoping that you would realize just how arrogant scripture comes off sometimes when believers speak Jesus' words directly. Speaking as God, instead of about God, as another tread illustrates.
Not everyone who disagrees with you is evil, or even speaking evil, so there is no need to take a strict 'black vs light' stance to religious criticism. Even when someone is being irreverent in your eyes you have to realize that not everyone believes that one's words can be blasphemous, or that certain topics are universally held to be off limits.
@NL
I do not know of any topics that are universally acknowledged, much less acknowledged to be "off limits". Not with 6billion people on the same planet, much less the universe.
@Carol
You are pretty brazen about it, I see.
And you were speaking to Satan using an open, anonymous blog as your means of communication.
Isn't it wrong to pray to Satan like that? Or are you a Satanist? I really can't tell from here.....!
@Carol
"@Nl...I wasn't too impressed by what the Rabbi said. They don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah, they did not believe Jesus was the son of God. They also deny the ressurection, nor do they believe in an afterlife. So, it was no different then listening to what one of you say all the time."
Your ignorance is astounding. So all Jews state the same opinions all the time according to you, and because they're Jewish their opinion is invalid? As well, your statement that Jews do not believe in an afterlife really shows that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Try being an open-minded person before posting.
Seriously now I had a chance to listen to the Rabbi Hartman and found his talk and words as pure pearls spoken from the heart that man has to have a belief but redial or extreme that makes life hard for mankind to live as a dream rather than the existing nightmares..he says when you do not know to rather silent and listen and so on that I find with the full respect to the Rabbi stating that our beliefs needed to be revised "UpDated" to be elastically extendable to suite present life modern style, which of course I find it hard for many to change the basics but there might be others that are not.?
But here the only thing That got me upset from him was repeating the word "don't know" not understanding and so on which reflect weakness of belief while all guidance were given in the old scriptures of the Holy book and the Quran? Beside that where is the alleged religions discussions? Wasn't the Islam pioneer in knowledge so why are they now not combined for knowledge and the goodwill of human beings that no one's is thirsty or starving or no one's rights and freedoms are abused.those religious tops are to work it out solving their indifferences and promote the mix living with each others permit intermarriage integrating rather than living in distant seperated communities that hold no respect for each other and promote hatred for the indifferances between faiths "meaning melting of the ice walls" towards a real multi cultures integration. We as Muslims are allowed to marry a Jewish or Christian women provided they are religious,believer and up to her to get in to Islam or not.. Any way what he said was a sweet dream that can not be achieved unless the elder versions of the Holy Books are up dated and corrected to match God message in the Quran starting with Allah being the one and only and that Muhammed SAW is his Messenger. What if church admits that Jesus SAW was messenger of God and his word to the children of Israel..easy to say what if but difficult to convince those who say they worship what their grandfathers and ancestors worshiped and wouldn't change? For those it became a tradition,a community,a nationality but not a true belief
In quest of the Truth about God and Mankind or Human Life History that can be extracted from the stories of the messengers of God mentioned in the Holy Scriptures and the Holy Quran which teaches us a lot about civilizations that existed before us and fell in to the same situations before us for reasons we were told not to do or underestimate their harmfulness in the long run that contributes to the fall of humanity and morals to fi-lthiest of all ages...
Forgive me for not jumping right away to answer any questions. I do not stay on this blog day and night, but as I can.
Abejita..Your most welcomed, it was my pleasure!
Muneef..Thanks for taking a try on what I meant. Your close, but not exactly. I was simply ststaing that one day, all will see that there is a God, and it will be too late to do anyhting aabout it. Thats all. I posted the scripture to show that God meant what he said...he will accomplish his purpose.
Get thee behind me Satan, is a rebuke. So when I got the blah, blah and the same ole "book of silliness" book, answer from Hot Air Ace, that is what I said to that. (Jesus rebuked Peter with that too)
I already had the answer, and we both posted at the same time. So, I just left the answer I had typed, as it explained the scripture. I guess he could not understand it that way,lol.
Brad, I agree! I guess Gods word is sharper then any two edge sword, just as he said.
CatholicMom, Thank you for defending me! At least you got it right! God Bless you! You saw that answer,lol, but he couldn't..wonder why that was? (Winks)
Nl...I wasn't too impressed by what the Rabbi said. They don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah, they did not believe Jesus was the son of God. They also deny the ressurection, nor do they believe in an afterlife. So, it was no different then listening to what one of you say all the time.
Also, you said
NL
CatholicMom-
Sounds more like she was trying to dodge the question by resorting to name calling first. She did call him 'Satan', did she not?
I wasn't dodging nothing. Read what I typed above. I was in the process of typing what the scriptures meant, when Hot Air posted that question at the same time. The answer was there, so I didn't re answer it.
I did not call him Satan.
I was using it as a rebuke (against the blah blah and rest of what he said)
Satan influences thoughts that come from others, and so I said Get thee behind me Satan.
Jesus rebuked Peter, whom he loved, with those very words.
I am sorry some found it necessary to call me names, and to put filth up like SomeDude did, but I guess thats what some people do when they want to show how intelligent they are.
I try to read when I can, but do not always get on here every day. I actually had a very sick child to tend to today, and this is the first time I was able to come and address any posts.
I wasn't trying to ignore anyone's questions.
@Carol
I hope your child gets well and soon.
I hope you eventually and soon see that THERE ARE GODS – I will spare you the rest of my usual qualifiers.
Finally, you do get some credit for replying – much better behaviour than most "post and run" believers.
Carol-
You may not have called HotAirAce Satan directly, but you were inferring that Satan was putting words into his mind and that his thoughts are evil by association. This is insulting. HotAirAce is obviously intelligent enough to come up with his own arguments all by himself and his thoughts are no more evil than anybody else's. AS you said Jesus spoke those words in the bible, but how do you know who here may be deceived by Satan? It may very well be you, or is Satan not cleaver enough to deceive every person?
@Carol
"mentioning" that you are supposedly caring for a "very sick child" is a disgusting tactic and a pathetic example of what some people will do in a post in a bid to garner support they do not deserve.
I call BS on you. "Carol"
And my mild joke was only filthy in your own head. I had nothing to do with that part of it. The filth was all yours. Enjoy.
If this rabbi truly knew all of religions limits, he would stop being a rabbi and denounce religion for being a pile of vicious lies.
He might be wonderfully moderate, but he still has not got a single clue about the reality of religion, or maybe he is just trying to keep his job.
Whatever. As if being a rabbi meant something beyond the insanity of religion. It doesn't. He should quit believing the lies.
Because the way he describes what he believes about religion is so vicious, right? I'm pretty sure if you actually listened to what he said and didn't interpret it as "more vicious lies" then you might have been able to give a proper response that doesn't come off as being completely ignorant of what he was saying.
A big part of a rabbi's job is to council people, and a big part of doing that is just listening to them. Maybe pastors, priests, imams and other spiritual leaders could benefit from simply listening more than telling. Know what I mean?
HotAirAce,
Why do you resort to name calling? You asked for a clearer answer and got it. So be it…..
CatholicMom-
Sounds more like she was trying to dodge the question by resorting to name calling first. She did call him 'Satan', did she not?
NL figured it out, and as usual, CatholicMom did not...
Get thee behind me Satan!
Learn to answer a question Cow!
@HotAirAce
Mebbe she wants some of that hot lovin' from behind...! (and why did you think she was talking at you?)
Timestamps and perhaps incorrect assumption she doesn't know how to use "reply"...
hey baby, you need some lovin ?
Hi, Carol
Is there a phenominon called religious epilepsy? Your comment seems to have sent several people into spasms of pettiness. Atheists don't have to work hard to defend their positions. Quote something from the Bible, their reason and intelligence collapses into adolescent tantrums.
@Brad
If we atheists don't have to work hard to defend our position, one of the major reasons is that many (most?) believers are "hit and run" bloggers. They make definitive statements but when asked for references, they almost never reply. Hard to have a serious discussion when the other side does not, or can not, support their position.
Woops guy sorry I think here I am lost with this "Satan get behind me" thing ...!
But isn't that already happening the Satan got behind those Children abusing them? Well in such a case it is a clear invitation to Satan to do bad things there. Satan should be fought and and asked to be behind our backs since cowards take advantage of that and kill the man by stapping him with knife from behind..therefore should not allow him his followers be behind our backs using us as shields for their acts of destructions to humanity morals and goodwill...
Woops guys sorry I think here I am lost with this "Satan get behind me" thing ...!
But isn't that already happening the Satan got behind those Children abusing them? Well in such a case it is a clear invitation to Satan to do bad things there. Satan should be fought and and asked to be behind our backs since cowards take advantage of that and kill the man by stapping him with knife from behind..therefore should not allow him his followers be behind our backs using us as shields for their acts of destructions to humanity morals and goodwill...
Correction please- Sorry.
Woops guys sorry I think here I am lost with this "Satan get behind me" thing ...!
But isn't that already happening the Satan got behind those Children abusing them? Well in such a case it is a clear invitation to Satan to do bad things there. Satan should be fought and not asked to be behind our backs since cowards take advantage of that and kill the man by stapping him with a knife from behind his back..therefore should not allow him or his followers be behind our backs using us as shields for their acts of destructions to humanity morals and goodwills...
You know, Satan is a goat....all things considered, I'm not sure I'd want him behind me......
@Moi.
Do not know what gave you the notion that Satan is a goat but it is not right but the right thing is that he can take the shape and looks of any animal mainly as you said goats then Donkeys,Dogs,Cats,Rats said to be favorite color is black ones. There are many other animals he can take shape,look of or otherwise posses.
Muneef-
I think that's being unfair to black-fured animals. Black cats, for example, are only unlucky in that they are easier to trip up over in the dark. It's their natural state, nothing more.
Lest any of you think you have God displaced or extinct...make no mistake...his word is sharper then any two edged sword. You live on in your lie of delusion. One day it will find you out, and there will be no where for you most intelligent factual people to hide.
Think what Carol wants to say is that on Earth we make the choices that God has given us the power of using and therefore God will not help those not helping them selves on earth and that we ought to change our selves to the best in order things change for us at it's best... And that God said he will see and judge our achievements on the promised date and every one will be rewarded or pay his dues that he was promised in the Holy Books.
But I add that we were told that most of those who will be in Hell are of Preists and Judges that were using their powers not to the good of man.
God said when he left this world, he would leave us the Holy Spirit to comfort us. He is not here right now, and he also said this world is not mine..(my Kingdom is not of this world)
Isa. 55:9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater, 11so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Blah, blah, blah...blah, blah, blah!
More man-made mumbo jumbo from one cult's book-of-silliness for their brand of supernatural tribal mythology.
What was your point? In plain english please!
Carol-
Ooookey, ... but what do you think about what the rabbi said?
Thank you Carol for sharing God's word!
It is not about religion at all...it is about a relationship...a relationship with The Creator of the world. I would agree that people do get disappointed when they put their faith in "a religion". That is the same thing that the Pharisees did in the Bible, they put their hope in their "religion" and were so busy following the law, that they missed the Messiah who came to save them.
I put my hope, faith in trust in God and He has and will never let me down! Even living in a world full of turmoil, we can have peace.
“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” ~ Jesus Christ
Abejita-
So you don't have a religion, just a 'relationship' with God? Just this belief alone and no Christian ethics, standards, commandments, or taboos? No theology, afterlife or final judgment? No charity, education or political aims whatsoever? Tell me then, what is the difference between having just a relationship with God and being a part of a religion?
NL -
Yes, I have a relationship with God. It is not a belief, it is a fact, just as my relationship with my husband is not a belief, but reality.
In my opinion the difference between having a relationship with God and being a part of a religion is that religion is based on traditions and works, whereas a relationship with God consists of Him loving me, me loving Him and living and communing daily with Him. I walk, talk and live with Him every day. He is involved in (and I include Him in) every aspect of my life. And I take the time to get to know Him, just like I would another person. I find out His likes and dislikes and about His character.
I don’t go to church because it is a rule, I don’t pray before meals and at bedtime, because it is some sort of command and yet never talk to Him any other time. I don’t try to earn enough “merits” in life and do enough good to out-way the bad, in order to be accepted into heaven someday. There is nothing that I could ever do that would be good enough. You asked about standards…God’s standard is holiness. I could never do that, and either can any other human….BUT God has provided a way for me to know Him…..and He extends that same invitation to everyone.
So relationship is based on love, religion is based on works.
Mark 7:8 ~ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.” ~ Jesus Christ
God’s command is to love Him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself
James 4:8 ~ Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.
Isaiah 55:6 ~ Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.
John 5:39 ~ You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
Romans 6:23 ~ For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
John 1:18 ~ No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
1 Corinthians 8:2-3 ~ If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.
Abejita,
Can you demonstrate how talking with "God" is any different that talking to yourself? Do you learn anything that you don't already know; or that you couldn't dream up, using your imagination? Has he taught you a foreign language... described your complete genome series... imparted the intricacies of E=mc2... told you what is inside of Arcturus?
Does he tell you to be kind and loving? You already know that.
Does he tell you to enjoy nature? You already know that.
Does he tell you to buy Cheerios over Rice Krispies? You can figure that out.
Does he tell you what to say in an argument? Do you always get your point across successfully?
Contemplation or meditation, or whatever you want to call it, can help you to focus on goals or problem-solving and the like; but there is no-one there but you... and your experiences, your learned knowledge and your creative thinking.
Let's get this guy shipped to the United States and have him run for Congress, then we would only have 535 idiots left to replace.
Yes big Shalom to Rabbi Hartman specially if he would confess to this denied fact:
@Muneef
Could you spell it out for those of us who cannot see your silly movie? What is he supposed to have done?
@Sum Dude.
Surprised why you can't see my silly movie ? It could have explained to you with sound and picture what I wanted to say.
@Muneef
How many times must I point out my blindness? If you have something to say, please use words from your heart or whatever you use to create words.
Well it does have what I wanted to say from heart and since explaining is harder for me to be better than what is shown I would rather ask you to see it first then we can discuss contents if you want to or otherwise let it not bother you and just ignore it as no seen.. It is up to you friend..
A 'big' Shalom to Rabbit Hartman...!!!!!
He is pretty much *spot on* as far as I'm concerned.
Peace...
@Peace2All
Hai, Peace!
"Spot on" sounds like a full endorsement. I wish they would just provide a transcript or something for us blind folk.
Have a safe and sane Election Day!
*Rabbi Hartman*
@Sum Dude
Sum Dude is da Man..!! What is up me amigo...!
As well to you... safe and 'sane' Election Day.
Get out the 'vote'...!!
Peace brotha'...
@Peace2All
'sup
word
peace
I already voted, and no fireworks went off, so I guess I'm safe...not sure about the sane part, tho...!
Rabbits is it? lol Are his ears that big? I can't see.
@Peace2All.
Rabbit as it is with" Bugs Bonny" you mean??
@Sum Dude & @Muneef
As you can well see, I corrected my own mistake on the spelling. So, me and 'Bugs' with you many a 'carrot stick' today...!
Peace...
LOL..!!! *WISH*
Me thinks it's time for a visit to the 'eye doc.'....
@Peace2All.
No need for eye doctor at all just have all those carrot sticks on daily bases and your eye sight will become as Superman.
Ha ha ha...
@Muneef
Thanks... Carrot's it is...!!!
Peace...
Rabbi Hartman, there are many ways to "get out" . Suicide, drugs, alchohol. My father grew up on a farm during the great depression and never completed high school. He said the same things Hartman is saying. Rabbi, our own human nature has caused most of our suffering. Say something that hasn't been said for eons. Otherwise, you're only going to leave the atheists shaddow boxing on this site.
Alas, I repeat: Jews just get it, Christians are fanatical and impressionable and many Muslims take things too literally.
Rabbi Hartman, you make a world of sense. I just wish more people approached religion and faith in the way you describe it. I loved the part about admitting you just don't know. Not indulging in self-delusion by thinking you have all the answers. Every fundie needs to sit and listen to this man.
BTW I am truly disappointed in the number of responses to this article. More people need to be as reasonable as this.
I thought this would have generated a lively debate. Its hard to debate people who generally agree with you, although I've been known to do just that, but it never goes anywhere.
It could be that most of those wishing to make comments simply have given up on this blog because of the inane word filter.
Reality-
Still, I find it telling that we all are the only people left in the room, the only people who seem to be able to choose words to comment on the good rabbi's comments that can slip through the filter. Hmmm... interesting!
NL, it is apparent that we non believers and agnostics are the wisest of the bunch.
I don't think there is anything to really debate. Those that are intereted in what his man has to say generally agree with him and those that oppose him didn't bother to listen in the first place. They also know they'll get squashed by the hammer of reason, so methinks they just avoid it while sticking to the wishy washing topics.
@Luke:
"They also know they'll get squashed by the hammer of reason..." Whose reason, Luke? Yours? Frogist's? JohnQuest's?
If you guys are going to appeal to reason, you should be in perfect agreement. To do this, you'll need some standard by which reason is measured. How are you going to do this?
brad, brad, brad, you are missing the point, reason isn't measured by one standard. We are all individuals, with our own strengths and weaknesses, my reasoning may not be the same as Luke's or Frogist's. The beauty of reason is, if my arguments are logical and sound, and my theories can be tested independently and proven right then I am right, if not its back to the drawing board for me. Faith does not allow self correction.
brad – Yes, Brad, reason. That measure and metric alone squashing irrational pandering that I come across here every darn day. Logic, reason, rationale and thought will squash blathering nonsense whether it be miine or a fellow blogger. I've seen you post and it's never in a logical manner. So yes, Brad, those things will prevail. They always have over the long-run. In any event – did you want to argue about something, or just attack me for no good reason again?
JohnQuest-
Ah, maybe everyone else is busy at home, boiling water and getting their cozies ready for tomorrow's vote.
@Luke
One of the things I don't like about blogs is that one cannot express himself in the correct "tone of voice". Appologies if you think I was attacking you. When I think of reason, I think of what might be called "pure reason". But this doesn't exist. Your reason and mine are always influenced by the rest of our humanity,i.e. emotion, ignorance (we're all ignorant about something), cultural conditioning, etc. Long before the rabbi's comments, I saw how human nature mishandled religion. I'm not impressed with man's handling of reason, either. I'm beginning to think that the discourse between atheist and believers is like that between men and women: they just can't talk to each other.
@Frogist
I cannot view the video, so I have little enough to go on. CNN does not like providing transcripts, I guess.
This Rabbi sounds like a sensible guy judging by the responses you guys are giving to his interview.
It's always good to hear of another person saying sensible things. And a Rabbi as well! Oyyy!
whoda thunk, a Rabbi I actually agree with, it must be a cold day in he ll (if there was actually a he ll, but the Rabbi and I both agree that there isn't).
so, just because you and the rabbi "agree" that hell doesn't exist, then it just (poof) vanishes? What about if you both agreed that the moon is made of green cheese, does it make it so?
I love this guy!
To paraphrase the rabbi at the end of the clip "The worse religion is when it's based on things you don't know." Trouble in America is that too much religion is offering all kinds of 'answers' to precisely these kinds of things, the unknowable, and then pastor's wonder why they aren't taken seriously when they offer to console people in their time of grief.
I like this guy, I think he said that religion is just something to make believers feel good, helps motivate them, doesn't answer any questions and that religious leaders should just shut up. I agree with him.
The Conservative Jews beat Rabbi Hartmann to the "punch" eight years ago as noted below:
origin: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482
"New Torah For Modern Minds
Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.
Such startling propositions - the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years - have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity - until now (2002).
The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine doc-ument. "
Reality; Take a hard look at the Conservative Movement which says some lovely things theologically, as you illustrated, but is still mired in the halakhah, of the Rabbis who are considered yhe official interpreters of God's word? Why if the Conservative Movement believes the quotations that have appeared, am I reading in "Kolot," the official fan magazine of the Conservative Movement, stuff like Rabbi Bloom's article "Kindling on Shabbat" in which he exsplains that we can't turn electricity on and off on Shabbat because in the Mishnah it says that one can open a sluice gate for irrigation on Shabbat, but one cannot redirect it? Trading being a servant of God for being a slave to the rabbis is not my idea of the Jewish religion.