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February 25th, 2011
10:24 AM ET

Church leader reverses stance on HIV, reaches out to those affected

HIV is a curse from God. That's what Patricia Sawo used to tell others as a church leader in Kitale, Kenya.

"I thought it was a moral issue and a punishment for the disobedient," Sawo remembers.

Then one morning in 1999, Sawo awoke to find her body covered in shingles, a rash commonly associated with HIV. Scared and upset, she cried in the bathroom for two hours. A test soon confirmed her fears: She was HIV-positive.

"I couldn't believe it," said Sawo, now 45. "It was, 'Oh my God, how could this happen to me?' "

Read the full story
- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Africa • HIV • Kenya

soundoff (235 Responses)
  1. Geri

    @ Magic....and the feeling is more then mutual.

    March 3, 2011 at 7:18 pm |
  2. Magic

    Geri,

    "LOL, do I hear the screams of demons??"

    In your delusional mind, you probably do, ma'am; you probably do.

    I wish you peace.. and I can only hope that you do not do too much harm... to yourself or to anyone else.

    March 3, 2011 at 2:47 pm |
  3. Geri

    @Magic....

    Magic

    Geri,

    I looked at your OT citations, and they do not qualify. I know that you are trying, as have many, and have failed.

    Daniel: Those bodies resurrected are an end-of-times occ-urrence – nothing to do with a 'crucifixion' event.

    Isaiah: Talks about some kind of worship at a mountain – nothing pertinent there.

    Micah: Talks about a ruler over Israel – Jesus did not and does not rule over Israel.

    Again, anything – *anything* – that you cite from the NT does not prove a single thing about prophecies coming true. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Paul (or whoever wrote under their names) read and studied the OT and could have simply tailored their stories to match.

    Yes, I visited the skeptical review. It would do you well to consider studying some of their concepts.

    And, ah, your allegory fall-back... a classic stance – when something biblical has been refuted it's metaphor or allegory.

    March 2, 2011 at 11:48 pm | Report abuse |
    Geri
    You know what Magic? I am frankly sick of you people asking for one to show you this and that, and when we do, its called "foul" "circ=ular argument" and all the other little fancy terms you scr-ape up from your "God is Dirt .com websites.
    You say, "I looked at your cit=ations from the NT, and it doesn't prove a thing". Know what? You don't prove a thing either. Those were taken from places that directly said thats what they referred to. But when one has blinders on, what can be expected?

    You don't want to try to understand the scriptures, and if you did, then you would know how wrong you are But, its more fun to twist things in your mind, so you can co=meback with your old and worn out "fouls" on everything.

    If you really did some "looking at" what I gave you, you would see that they are in fact, directly connected, but, like I said, its the same ole game you people want to play.

    Look, if you don't believe, why bother asking people to "prove" or show you anything? I can answer that, its because you all get some kind of big ki-ck out of trying to make as-s-8es out of believers. Try as you might though, you don't su-cceed.

    As far as I am concerned, stay steeped in your little anti Christ world. David Johnson tried to tell me that Jesus never did what he said, concerning "this generation will not pa-ss until"..and when I proved him wrong, I got no reply. Thats because he is to egot=isti-cal to ADMIT he is in the "foul" arena here. As much as you all may want to convince everybody how wrong Christians are, you can't. And so, the game goes on.

    Personally, I am done with the game. I am -game of "prove it", because I have the truth..YOU don't. and neither do most here, that say the cr-ap.

    I willl try and help anyone that sincerely asks for something, as I did you. Then, II happened to come across you athiest manif-esto website, and knew it was just another ploy used to give you some more space to declare your "fouls" and other dero=gratory terminolgy.

    I am not wasting my time any further. No matter what is presented to you people, you already have a plan in place to write it off as BS right up front. Who do you think your hurting, but yourselves?

    For everything you all come back with, questioning the "logic" of things we believe, I could do right back at you. Who wants to engage in stupidity such as that? Nobody has all the answers to ANYTHING, that includes your athiest views as well.

    Its a constant play on words, and lets twist that, etc.

    If your alll so convinced your gonna die and thats all there is..why go thru all that you do, to try and convince anybody else? Do you think that trying to tear down what we believe, is gonna make your conclusion anymore comfortable for you,lol?

    You all talk about delusions and lies, and you are all living proof of it! Any idiiotic thinking that perfect things and design came from nothing, and then used that nothing to design , how a=si-nine is that? Its totally unlogical!

    But, I have good news too! Guess what? All of the anti Christ retoric and belief systems have been defeated! Christ defeated Satan at the cross! So, its a no win situation for all of you soothsayers. The future has been determined and we have already defeated you!

    Chew on that for awhile. I think some already have, and thats why they make up the lies that Jesus didn't exist, >eyerollbigger eyeroll< ,

    Now for a drumroll.....It is Finished!

    LOL, do I hear the screams of demons??

    March 3, 2011 at 8:04 am |
  4. Geri

    Magic...Seems the only ones that missed the "divine cut", were the undevine who tried to cut,lol.

    March 2, 2011 at 10:43 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      G-od prom-ises man that he will never de-st-roy the world again due to flood. Ge-n-esis 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cl-oud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the ever-last-ing co-ven-ant be-twe-en G-od and e-very l-iving cr-eat-ure of al-l fl-sh that is upon the e-arth"

      The flo-od of No-ah was not pl-anet wi-de but was re-gional in sco-pe. The word "Wor-ld" in [Ge-nesis 7:17-19] is "er-ets" in the He-brew means a par-ti-cu-lar part of the e-arth, not the en-tire gl-obe

      March 3, 2011 at 2:34 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Proof positive. They blocked my next two post to explain how to read scriptures about Noah's flood.

      Be aware, you are not allowed to hear truth on this site.

      March 3, 2011 at 2:38 am |
  5. Hypatia

    Ain't that grand! So after denigrating and villifying AIDS-victims for years, she 'suddenly' reaches out because it got personal? What a fake!

    March 1, 2011 at 11:15 am |
    • Geri

      @ Magi...No, actually,, I didn't run out of anything, I was just pressed for time. Reason I didn't get back to some of these.

      The Massacre of the Innocents..Old Testament Micah 5:2 (King James Version)
      Satan and the flying around the mountains (LOL) ....It is suggested this was an allegory..so much for flying, huh?
      No Earthquake.....What? This is noted in the renting of the veil! Hebrews 9:1-10, Hebrews 10: 19 – 22.
      Resurrection of Dead Saints Dan 12:1-2
      Nothing about the moneychangers and his actions Isa. 56:7; Jer. 7:11; Mark 11:17).119
      Nothing about a cross He humbled Himself and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross" (Phil. 2:8).

      Well, gotta run for now. I will try to get to the rest, as I can. They are in there, if you know what to look for, and understand the bible. You said "far reaching", no, they are in direct relation to what you posted. Check it out yourself.

      2But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

      By the way, I as=sume you got this from here?

      http://www.theskepticalreview.com/JEHillJesusProphecies.html

      With that in mind, here are some events that should have been tied to Old Testament prophecy but some how seem to miss the divine cut:

      No Visti of the Magi
      No star of the East
      No flight to Egypt to escape the massacre of innocents
      No meeting with Satan and flying around the mountains
      No Earthquake
      No Last Supper
      No Foot washing rite
      No Temple curtain tearing
      No resurrection of dead saints
      Nothing about his actions in the Temple over turning the money changers tables.
      Nothing about a cross
      Nothing about women at the tomb
      Nothing about who carried the cross
      Nothing about a release of a prisoner
      No sermon on the mount
      No third day prophecy
      No second coming prophecy

      March 2, 2011 at 10:41 pm |
    • Magic

      Geri,

      I looked at your OT citations, and they do not qualify. I know that you are trying, as have many, and have failed.

      Daniel: Those bodies resurrected are an end-of-times occurrence - nothing to do with a 'crucifixion' event.

      Isaiah: Talks about some kind of worship at a mountain - nothing pertinent there.

      Micah: Talks about a ruler over Israel - Jesus did not and does not rule over Israel.

      Again, anything - *anything* - that you cite from the NT does not prove a single thing about prophecies coming true. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Paul (or whoever wrote under their names) read and studied the OT and could have simply tailored their stories to match.

      Yes, I visited the skeptical review. It would do you well to consider studying some of their concepts.

      And, ah, your allegory fall-back... a classic stance - when something biblical has been refuted it's metaphor or allegory.

      March 2, 2011 at 11:48 pm |
  6. Evolved DNA

    Challenger... has Dr. Brad Harrub had any of his creationist scientific studies peer reviewed? and if so in what way was evolution changed?

    February 28, 2011 at 11:24 pm |
    • Geri

      @ Magic...

      Perhaps regarding the Magi, I would say it was a prophecy fulfilled. Mayby not in the way you are looking for it.
      We have:

      16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. 17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:

      18 “A voice is heard in Ramah,
      weeping and great mourning,
      Rachel weeping for her children
      and refusing to be comforted,
      because they are no more.”[d]

      There is also another verse, that I think spoke of it before it happened:
      Isaiah 60:1-7 is a prophecy of the wise men since it speaks of kings coming to "the brightness of your rising" (60:3) and gifts of "gold and frankincense" (60:6).

      The Star of the East

      Matthew 2:9, the star moved ahead of them until it was directly over the house where Jesus was and then stopped. No ordinary star does this. Rationalists have long tried to come up with a natural explanation for this star, that it was a comet, conjunction of two planets, or some other phenomenon. But, first of all, there is no proof for their natural explanations. And second, as said above, this star did things that normal stars do not.

      given that it was through a dream that God warned the magi to return to their homeland another way (Matthew 2:12), it is possible that it was through a dream that God communicated to them about the significance of the star in the first place.

      Fllight of the innocents

      Matthew writes that the “Magi from the East” told Herod they were looking for “he that is born King of the Jews”. A troubled Herod consulted with his priests, who said the prophecy placed the newborn in Bethlehem. So Herod said to the Magi: “when you have found him, bring me word, that I also may come and worship him” (Matthew 2:8). But the Magi were warned by God and avoided Jerusalem.

      No flight to Egypt to escape the massacre of innocents

      Matthew writes that the “Magi from the East” told Herod they were looking for “he that is born King of the Jews”. A troubled Herod consulted with his priests, who said the prophecy placed the newborn in Bethlehem. So Herod said to the Magi: “when you have found him, bring me word, that I also may come and worship him” (Matthew 2:8). But the Magi were warned by God and avoided Jerusalem.

      So Herod ordered all male children in Bethlehem two years old and younger executed (Matthew 2:16). This is called the “Slaughter” or “Massacre of the Innocents”. In the meantime, though, an angel had warned Joseph to take his family and flee to Egypt.

      No meeting with Satan and flying around the mountains > Would you elaborate on this ridicolous statement?
      No Earthquakes and this,too?

      I will get to the rest later today.

      March 1, 2011 at 7:58 am |
    • Magic

      Geri,

      Thanks for your reply... I know that it was quite a bit of work.

      You are really stretching things in the references that you cite; and it looks like you lost your way about halfway through and started quoting NT things that Matthew said instead of anything from the OT predicting them.

      The meeting with Satan is Matthew's story of the temptation in the desert....and how else did Satan get Jesus up to the top (and down again) of an "exceeding high mountain" if not by flying?

      The earthquake is 'reported' by Matthew in 27:51... on crucifixion day, "The earth shook and the rocks split."

      March 1, 2011 at 12:03 pm |
  7. Challenger

    evolvedDNA

    heavensent..unlike religion, science does not lie and claim it has all truths. You are closer to apes than you believe..DNA evidence can prove it..As your understanding of life and its evolution is narrow, it would be to much to go into here.. you came out of Africa like the rest of us..unless you emerged from some cosmic egg from heaven? If evolution has been proven wrong.. list the puplications..

    Check this out...http://www.apologeticspress.org/article/1038

    Ho-m-ology (or similarity) does not prove common ancestry. The entire genome of the tiny nematode (Caenorhabditis elegans) also has been sequenced as a ta-ngen=tial study to the human genome project. Of the 5,000 best-known human genes, 75% have matches in the worm (see “A Tiny Worm Challenges Evolution”). Does this mean that we are 75% identical to a nematode worm? Just because living creatures share some genes with humans does not mean there is a linear ancestry. Biologist John Randall admitted this when he wrote:

    The older textbooks on evolution make much of the idea of ho-m-ology, pointing out the obvious resemblances between the skeletons of the limbs of different animals. Thus the “pentadactyl” [five bone—BH/BT] limb pattern is found in the arm of a man, the wing of a bird, and flipper of a whale—and this is held to ind-icate their common origin. Now if these various structures were transmitted by the same gene couples, varied from time to time by mutations and acted upon by environmental selection, the theory would make good sense. Unfortunately this is not the case. Ho-mo-logous or-gans are now known to be produced by totally different gene complexes in the different species. The concept of h-o-mology in terms of similar genes handed on from a common ancestor has broken down... (as quoted in Fi-x, 1984, p.189).
    Yet textbooks and teachers still continue to proclaim that humans and chimps are 98% genetically identical. The evidence clearly demonstrates vast molecular differences—differences that can be attributed to the fact that humans, unlike animals, were created in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26-27; see Lyons and Thompson, 2002a, 2002b). Elaine Mor-gan commented on this difference.

    Considering the very close genetic relationship that has been established by comparison of bioche-mical properties of blood proteins, protein structure and DNA and immunological responses, the differences between a man and a chimpanzee are more astonishing than the resemblances. They include structural differences in the skeleton, the muscles, the skin, and the brain; differences in posture as-0sociated with a unique method of locomotion; differences in social or-ganization; and finally the acquisition of speech and tool-using, together with the dramatic increase in intellectual ability which has led scientists to name their own species Ho-m-o sapiens sapiens—wise wise man. During the period when these remarkable evolutionary changes were taking place, other closely related ape-like species changed only very slowly, and with far less remarkable results. It is hard to resist the conclusion that something must have happened to the ancestors of Ho-mo sapiens which did not happen to the ancestors of gorillas and chimpanzees (1989, pp. 17-18, emp. added).
    That “something” actually is “Someone”—the Creator.

    February 28, 2011 at 8:55 pm |
    • Evolved DNA

      Challenger..I think you may have some old data.. check out Richard Dawkins book Greatest Show on Earth.. he has a very detailed chapter on your worm... I think if you read real science text books on evolution you will get the facts rather than just a rebuttal based on biblical stories. Evolution happens at the level of DNA.. How would you explain that bacteria can become resistant to antibiotics, insects become immune to insecticide in a short time..? Is god changing his codes to keep up with us> If as you claim, we are in the same form as a creator.. where did he come from and who made him.. you are still stuck to explain that..

      February 28, 2011 at 11:08 pm |
  8. Geri

    David Johnson

    @Geri

    Here is a prediction by Jesus that did not come true:

    I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” – Matthew 24:34

    This controversial verse is in all three of the Olivet Discourse accounts. (These accounts are to be found in Matthew 24:1-51, Mark 13:1-37, and Luke 21:5-33). For some time, critics of the Christian faith have argued that Jesus explicitly said here that all of the events prophesied in the Olivet Discourse, including His return, would happen before the last person living at that time died.

    Jesus promised, that He would return within that generation, but He did not. Since He was wrong, He could not have been God, so the Christian faith, is based on error.

    To bolster the argument, in all of the other places in the Gospels where Jesus used the term “this generation,” he was referring to people living at that time

    Cheers!

    CHEERS, DAVID! Have another drink, or puff of your magic dragon. :)

    You obviously have not spent as much time studying that which you are trying to dispute, HUH?

    New International Version (©1984)
    I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass,.... Not the generation of men in general; as if the sense was, that mankind should not cease, until the accomplishment of these things; nor the generation, or people of the Jews, who should continue to be a people, until all were fulfilled; nor the generation of Christians; as if the meaning was, that there should be always a set of Christians, or believers in Christ in the world, until all these events came to pass; but it respects that present age, or generation of men then living in it; and the sense is, that all the men of that age should not die, but some should live

    till all these things were fulfilled; see Matthew 16:28 as many did, and as there is reason to believe they might, and must, since all these things had their accomplishment, in and about forty years after this: and certain it is, that John, one of the disciples of Christ, outlived the time by many years; and, as Dr. Lightfoot observes, many of the Jewish doctors now living, when Christ spoke these words, lived until the city was destroyed; as Rabban Simeon, who perished with it, R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others: this is a full and clear proof, that not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state.

    GONG! DAVID, you are wrong! CHEERS!

    February 28, 2011 at 7:47 pm |
    • Geri

      HeavenSent

      Geri, why bother explaining anything to those that are duped into believing they are gods by the ones that will destroy them too! They are the lie and are lying to everyone today as they did from the beginning.

      Stroke, stroke, stroke those egos of man.

      Heaven Scent.... I agree...workers of the one that has them...and too egofied to know it!

      February 28, 2011 at 7:58 pm |
    • Geri

      @DavidJohnson....Come out, come out, wherever you are,lol. Sooo, David, I prved you wrong, on the "this generation"....nothing to say huh?

      March 3, 2011 at 6:49 am |
  9. Geri

    Magic...Do you? your the one quoting those things,lol.

    February 28, 2011 at 7:26 pm |
    • Geri

      REALITY...Professor Geri says your professors need a new pair of glasses, or a real bible, or perhaps a Reality check! Was Professor Lud and Crud, I mean Cros, there to know Jesus did not utter it? Because Matt said he did, so there, Nanny Nanny boo boo.

      February 28, 2011 at 7:54 pm |
  10. Steve the real one

    @David Johnson
    Here is a prediction by Jesus that did not come true: I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” – Matthew 24:34
    --–
    David there are 2 issues in Matthew 24. One of them is the Roman destruction of Jerusalem which was spearheaded by the Roman general Ti-tus in approx 72 AD (verse # 2). Honestly, any Christian getting a Bible lesson from you or any other atheist is akin to a pregnant lady getting prenatal care from a mortician! Think about that! In addition, the Word of God is to be SPIRITUALLY discerned and you, based upon your own words are not there! Stick with Darwin. You are out of your league when it comes to things of the Bible!

    February 28, 2011 at 10:11 am |
    • Reality

      Mark 13:28-32 = Matt 24:32-36 = Luke 21:29-33

      Two contemporary NT scholars, Professor Crossan and Professor Ludermann after a thorough review of Matthew 24:34 have concluded that the passage was not uttered by Jesus. e.g. Ludermann's Jesus After 2000 Years, p. 93)

      February 28, 2011 at 4:19 pm |
    • Steve (the real one)

      Sorry Reality,

      It does not matter what those two utter!

      February 28, 2011 at 7:30 pm |
    • Reality

      More reality for Steve:

      Think infinity and recycling with the Big Bang expansion followed by the shrinking reversal called the Gib Gnab and recycling back to the Big Bang repeating the process on and on forever. Human life and Earth are simply a minute part of this cha-otic, sto-cha-stic, expanding, shrinking process disappearing in five billion years with the burn out of the Sun and maybe returning in another five billion years with different life forms but still subject to the va-ga-ries of its local star.

      February 28, 2011 at 11:48 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      The only Big anything is your egos. Never to go humble. Therefore, we are always throwing his pearls ...

      March 3, 2011 at 2:42 am |
    • HeavenSent

      The only burn out will be the eternal flames.
      .

      March 3, 2011 at 2:48 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Realitynot, while you dream of the sun burning out, we'll be enjoying earth with Jesus, free of evil.

      SMILE.

      March 3, 2011 at 2:51 am |
  11. Informer

    Evolved DNA

    Informer.. so you have had rights taken from you... well religions have been working hard over the Milena to take rights from those who do not believe or are outside of the "group think" of the religion. Rights are nothing more than what society affords to you.. society is a dynamic force and moves ahead.. if some of your practices are no longer acceptable they either have to change or you lose the right. I mean.. do you still think it acceptable to sacrifice vir-gins or perhaps a goat in church on Sunday

    No, and you who I as-sume you ,who has common sense, and do not believe, would understand that is an Old Testament practice, not about what the New Testament church is today.

    I understand your point as well. If I had my way, all would be allowed equality where belief or unbelief is concerned. Because things did get out of hand, we all suffer. I think goverment and God should be two seperate ent'ities, when it effects the personal lives of people.

    February 28, 2011 at 8:19 am |
    • evolvedDNA

      Hi Informer..one question that I have is why, if the OT in not relevant any more, is it still published. It appears to be the source of most of the horrific deads done by your god, and if it is not true..then it should be mentioned as such..I agree with most of what you have mentioned.. we are all very much the same beneath our world views, and as humans we have to get along or we are all doomed..
      .regards..

      March 1, 2011 at 1:29 am |
    • HeavenSent

      evolvedNot, the 4 horns in Revelation. Read about them. 4 horns means power ... they are the Media, Education, Government and the followers of satan that oversee the Chruches (meaning all houses of worship) today.

      Aka, dumbing down Americans to hate Jesus. Jesus teaches Truth ... the above teaches LIES.

      So, you're proud of the garbage education they pumped into your pea brains today? LOL.

      I'm praying for this generation because you are truly clueless.

      March 3, 2011 at 7:37 pm |
    • EvolvedDNA

      Heaven sent.. I am a lot older than you..you have a lot to unlearn before you can understand.

      March 12, 2011 at 1:08 am |
  12. Geri

    I am rotfl..@Magic...well, that brillaint conclusion you just drew was the funniest thing I have ever read. No wonnder you are caling yourself "magic"..lolololol

    February 27, 2011 at 5:12 pm |
    • Magic

      Geri,

      Is it funnier than talking donkeys and snakes, a boat carrying all the animals of the Earth, a man surviving 3 days in the belly of a fish, burning bushes and manna machines?

      You don't get out much, do you?

      February 27, 2011 at 5:51 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @Geri

      Here is a prediction by Jesus that did not come true:

      I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” – Matthew 24:34

      This controversial verse is in all three of the Olivet Discourse accounts. (These accounts are to be found in Matthew 24:1-51, Mark 13:1-37, and Luke 21:5-33). For some time, critics of the Christian faith have argued that Jesus explicitly said here that all of the events prophesied in the Olivet Discourse, including His return, would happen before the last person living at that time died.

      Jesus promised, that He would return within that generation, but He did not. Since He was wrong, He could not have been God, so the Christian faith, is based on error.

      To bolster the argument, in all of the other places in the Gospels where Jesus used the term “this generation,” he was referring to people living at that time

      Cheers!

      February 27, 2011 at 6:54 pm |
  13. Challenger

    evolvedDNA
    I will check it out. Thanks for the tip.

    February 27, 2011 at 4:56 pm |
    • evolvedDNA

      Hi Challenger...hope you find the info useful, or at the very least.. interesting. Some religions accept evolution as true and assume that god left it to run it course, with some " direction" of course. At this time no one knows with any certainty as to how abiogenesis happened, but you may feel it was god, but I would imagine that at some time in the future science will have a working hypothesis.it most likely does already I am am not sure. Intelligent design may sound that it is factual, but has nothing to back it up.

      February 27, 2011 at 8:09 pm |
    • Geri

      David Johnson...You are making yourself look quite stupid.

      LOOK:
      PROPHECY: The Prophet Zechariah commanded the people by the Spirit of the Lord to: "REJOICE GREATLY, O daughter of Zion! SHOUT, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your KING comes unto you: RIGHTEOUS, and having SALVATION; meek, and riding upon a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey."–Zechariah 9:9. (Prophecy given 487 B.C.)

      FULFILLMENT: Five days before His crucifixion, as Jesus neared Jerusalem, He told His disciples, "Go into the village ahead of you, and at once you shall find a donkey tied there, and her colt with her: Untie them, and bring them to Me. And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them, and brought the donkey and the colt...and Jesus sat on them...and the mult-itudes that went ahead, and those that followed, SHOUTED, saying, `Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord!'"–Matthew 21:2-10.

      Imagine!–The King of kings, God in the flesh, came riding into Jerusalem, meekly sitting on the lowly colt of a donkey, just as God's Prophet, Zechariah, had predicted over 500 years earlier!–And not only did JESUS fulfil this part of the prophecy, but the MULTI-TUDES of Jerusalem who "REJOICED GREATLY" and "SHOUTED" praises to Him as He entered the city were further proof that indeed, Jesus of Nazareth was "the KING" of whom Zechariah had prophesied

      LOL 500 YEARS BEFORE....! I guess he read it, and had that donkey tied up, to fool people huh? Boy, you are really ridicolous!

      February 28, 2011 at 7:24 pm |
    • Magic

      Geri,

      "LOL 500 YEARS BEFORE....! I guess he read it, and had that donkey tied up, to fool people huh? Boy, you are really ridicolous!"

      This is the deal: He read it and to try and fulfill it had his followers go fetch a donkey that he had seen in a nearby village (not many people owned donkeys in those days, so it would have been noticed in his travels).

      And also, if the OT prophets were so good, how is it that such a commonplace prophecy, like Jesus's entry to Jerusalem on donkey takes prophetic priority over such major events as the Last Supper or the Foot Washing scene, an event that at least one commentary listed as one of the most important symbolic gestures ever made by Jesus. How could the prophets in a divinely inspired book, miss these future events when they seem to see an everyday mundane occurrence, that hundreds of people fulfilled everyday, as a prophecy, (such as riding a donkey into Jerusalem). How could they then not see or fail to deliver a prophecy of such an important event as the Last Supper or Foot Washing rite? How could the resurrection of the saints not be foretold, but Jesus entering the temple, another everyday occurrence is important enough to be prophesied (Malachi 3:1), and still omits the purpose and significance of Jesus entering the temple, that he chased the moneychangers out.

      There are no 'prophecies' for his other famous reported accomplishments and stories about him:

      # No Visit of the Magi
      # No star of the East
      # No flight to Egypt to escape the massacre of innocents
      # No meeting with Satan and flying around the mountains
      # No Earthquake
      # No Last Supper
      # No Foot washing rite
      # No Temple curtain tearing
      # No resurrection of dead saints
      # Nothing about his actions in the Temple over turning the money changers tables.
      # Nothing about a cross
      # Nothing about women at the tomb
      # Nothing about who carried the cross
      # Nothing about a release of a prisoner
      # No sermon on the mount
      # No third day prophecy
      # No second coming prophecy

      February 28, 2011 at 11:32 pm |
  14. Geri

    You want "proof " of books that were fulfilled> Here you are

    l1. The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem.

    Old Testament Prophecy: “But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, are only a small village in Judah. Yet a ruler of Israel will come from you, one whose origins are from the distant past.” Micah 5:2 (NLT)

    New Testament Fulfillment: “Jesus was born in the town of Bethlehem in Judea, during the reign of King Herod.” Matthew 2:1 (NLT)

    2. The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah.

    Old Testament Prophecy: “The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from his descendants, until the coming of the one to whom it belongs, the one whom all nations will obey.” Genesis 49:10 (NLT)

    New Testament Fulfillment: Luke 3:23-38 and Matthew 1:1-17 confirm that Jesus is a descendant of Judah.

    3. Great kings will pay homage and tribute to the Messiah.

    Old Testament Prophecy: “The western kings of Tarshish and the islands will bring him tribute. The eastern kings of Sheba and Seba will bring him gifts.” Psalm 72:10-11 (NLT)

    New Testament Fulfillment: “About that time, some wise men from eastern lands arrived in Jerusalem, asking, ‘Where is the newborn king of the Jews? We have seen his as it arose, and we have come to worship him.” Matthew 2:1-2 (NLT)

    “They entered the house where the child and his mother, Mary, were, and they fell down before him and worshiped him.” Matthew 2:11 (NLT)

    4. The Messiah will be a descendant of David.

    Old Testament Prophecies: “The Lord swore to David a promise he will never take back: ‘I will place one of your descendants on your throne. If your descendants obey the terms of my covenant and follow the decrees that I teach them, then your royal line will never end.” Psalm 132:11 (NLT)

    “‘For the time is coming,’ says the Lord, ‘when I will place a righteous Branch on King David’s throne. He will be a King who rules with wisdom. He will do what is just and right through the land.” Jeremiah 23:5-6 (NLT)

    “At that time I will bring to the throne of David a righteous descendant, and he will do what is just and right throughout the land.” Jeremiah 33:15 (NLT)

    New Testament Fulfillment: “He will be very great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David. And he will reign over Israel forever; his Kingdom will never end!” Luke 1:32-33 (NLT)

    5. The Messiah will be born of a virgin.

    Old Testament Prophecy: “All right then, the Lord himself will choose the sign. Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel – ‘God is with us.’” Isaiah 7:14 (NLT)

    New Testament Fulfillment: “But while she was still a virgin, she became pre-gnant by the Holy Spirit. Joseph, her fiancé, being a just man, decided to break the engagement quietly, so as not to disgrace her publicly. As he considered this, he fell asleep, and an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. ‘Joseph, son of David,’ the angel said, ‘do not be afraid to go ahead with your marriage to Mary. For the child within her has been conceived by the Holy Spirit. And she will have a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.’” Matthew 1:18-21 (NLT)

    WANT MORE?

    Old Testament Prophecy: “This is what the Lord says: ‘A cry of anguish is heard in Ramah – mourning and weeping unrestrained. Rachel weeps for her children, refusing to be comforted – for her children are dead.” Jeremiah 31:15 (NLT)

    New Testament Fulfillment: “Herod was furious when he learned that the wise men had outwitted him. He sent soldiers to kill al the boys in and around Bethlehem who were two years old and under, because the wise men had him the star first appeared to them about two years earlier. Herod’s brutal action fulfilled the prophecy of Jeremiah.” Matthew 2:16-17 (NLT)

    7. The Messiah will be taken to Egypt.

    Old Testament Prophecy: “When Israel was a child, I loved him as a son, and I called my son out of Egypt.” Hosea 11:1 (NLT)

    New Testament Fulfillment: “That night Joseph left for Egypt with the child and Mary, his mother, and they stayed there until Herod’s death. This fulfilled what the Lord had spoken through the prophet: ‘I called my Son out of Egypt.’” Matthew 2:14-15 (NLT)

    8. The Messiah will be the Son of God.

    Old Testament Prophecy: “The king proclaims the Lord’s decree: ‘The Lord said to me, ‘You are my son. Today, I have become your Father. Only ask, and I will give you the nations as your inheritance, the ends of the earth as your possession.” Psalm 2:7-8 (NLT)

    New Testament Fulfillment: “And a voice from heaven said, ‘This is my beloved Son, and I am fully pleased with him.’” Matthew 3:17 (NLT)

    9. The Messiah will be heralded by the messenger of the Lord.

    Old Testament Prophecy: “Listen! I hear the voice of someone shouting, ‘Make a highway for the Lord through the wilderness. Make a straight, smooth road through the desert for our God. Fill the valleys and level the hills. Straighten out the curves and smooth off the rough spots. Then the glory of the Lord will be revealed, and all the people will see it together. The Lord has spoken!” Isaiah 40:3-5 (NLT)

    New Testament Fulfillment: “In those days John the Baptist began preaching in the Judean wilderness. His message was, ‘Turn from your sins and turn to God, because the Kingdom of Heaven is near.’ Isaiah had spoken of John when he said, ‘He is a voice shouting in the wilderness: ‘Prepare a pathway for the Lord’s coming! Make a straight road for him!’” Matthew 3:1-3 (NLT)

    10. The Messiah will be anointed by the Holy Spirit.

    Old Testament Prophecy: “And the Spirit of the Lord will rest on him – the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and fear of the Lord.” Isaiah 11:2 (NLT)

    New Testament Fulfillment: “After his baptism, as Jesus came up out of the water, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and settling on him. And a voice from heaven said, ‘This is my beloved Son, and I am fully pleased with him.’” Matthew 3:16-17 (NLT)

    11. The Messiah will bring light to Galilee.

    Old Testament Prophecy: “Nevertheless, that time of darkness and despair will not go on forever. The land of Zebulun and Naphtali will soon be humbled, but there will be a time in the future when Galilee of the Gentiless, which lies along the road that runs between the Jordan and the sea, will be filled with glory. The people who walk in darkness will see a great light – a light that will shine on all who live in the land where death casts its shadow.” Isaiah 9:1-2 (NLT)

    New Testament Fulfillment: “When Jesus heard that John had been arrested, he left Judea and returned to Galilee. But instead of going to Nazareth, he went to Capernaum, beside the Sea of Galilee, in the region of Zebulun and Naphtali.” Matthew 4:12-16 (NLT)

    12. The Messiah will preach good news to the poor, comfort the broken hearted, and announce the year of the Lord’s favor.

    Old Testament Prophecy: “The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me, because the Lord has appointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to comfort the brokenhearted and to announce that captives will be released and prisoners will be freed. He has sent me to tell those who mourn that the time of the Lord’s favor has come.” Isaiah 61:1-2 (NLT)

    New Testament Fulfillment: “When he came to the village of Nazareth, his boyhood home, he went as usual to the synagogue on the Sabbath and stood up to read the Scriptures. The scroll containing the messages of Isaiah the prophet was handed to him, and he unrolled the scroll to the place where it says: ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, for he has appointed me to preach Good News to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim that captives will be released, that the blind will see, that the downtrodden will be freed from their oppressors, and that the time of the Lord’s favor has come.’ He rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant, and sat down. Everyone in the synagogue stared at him intently. Then he said, ‘This Scripture has come true today before your very eyes!’” Luke 4:16-21 (NLT)

    13. The Messiah will be hated without cause.

    Old Testament Prophecy: “Don’t let my treacherous enemies rejoice over my defeat. Don’t let those who hate me without cause gloat over my sorrow.” Psalm 35:19 (NLT)

    New Testament Fulfillment: “Anyone who hates me hates my Father, too. If I hadn’t done such miraculous signs among them that no one else could do, they would not be counted guilty. But as it is, they saw all that I did and yet hated both of us – me and my Father.” John 15:23-25 (NLT)

    February 27, 2011 at 11:58 am |
    • Eric G.

      Sorry, logic foul on the play. Circular argument. You are using a religious text to support prophecies told in the same religious text.

      Please provide references from any non religious source to validate the claims and prophecies you mentioned.

      February 27, 2011 at 12:15 pm |
    • Magic

      Geri,

      Guess what? Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul of Tarsus (and Jesus, whoever he really was) and the rest of the first century evangelists read the OT Bible, as did the later church officials who decided which works to include in the compilation of the Bible. The 'fulfillment' of old-time stories was contrived to fit the 'prophesied' scenarios.

      February 27, 2011 at 12:41 pm |
    • Reality

      "All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered." – JP Crossan

      Then there is this:

      “I believe the Bible is inspired.” “Why?” “Because it says so.” Would your
      anyone let that logic pass if it came from the followers of any other book
      or person? “I believe x is inspired because x says so.” Fill in the blanks:
      x=Pat Robertson
      x=the ayatolloah Sistani
      x=David Koresh
      x=the Koran”
      x=Geri

      more “logic”?

      “I believe there is One God Jehovah because He is revealed in the infallible
      Bible. I believe the Bible is infallible because it is the Word of the One God Jehovah.”

      February 27, 2011 at 2:19 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @Geri

      The prophecies of the Old Testament were well known to the authors of the New Testament. The New Testament was written after the Old Testament. There is no miracle here.

      The New Testament was written to "prove" Jesus was the Messiah. The author of Mathew even admits to Jesus riding on a colt for the sole purpose of fulfilling a prophecy.

      Mathew 21: 1-11
      Now when they drew near Jerusalem, and came to Bethphage at the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Loose them and bring them to Me. And if anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The Lord has need of them,’ and immediately he will send them.”
      All this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:
      “ Tell the daughter of Zion,
      ‘ Behold, your King is coming to you,
      Lowly, and sitting on a donkey,
      A colt, the foal of a donkey."

      It isn't really very hard for the writers of the New Testament to have Jesus fulfill the prophecies. LOL

      There were prophecies that Jesus did not fulfill. This was part of the reason the Jews did not accept Jesus as the Messiah.

      The fundies claim Jesus will fulfill these prophecies when he returns the 2nd time.

      The Jews say, Jesus was a false Messiah. The Jews say, the real Messiah will not need two trips.

      As Lewis Black says: "The Old Testament belongs to the Jews." They are the experts on this book, the Tanakh.
      Who better than them, to determine the actual requirements of their Messiah. The Jews find Jesus wanting.

      Cheers!

      February 27, 2011 at 6:45 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Geri, why bother explaining anything to those that are duped into believing they are gods by the ones that will destroy them too! They are the lie and are lying to everyone today as they did from the beginning.

      Stroke, stroke, stroke those egos of man.

      February 27, 2011 at 7:02 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Excuse me David Johnson, mini-god being duped by the liars of today, you need to find out what time is for God, not man.

      February 27, 2011 at 7:06 pm |
  15. Challenger

    Eric G.

    We are still waiting for Mr. Behe to present verifiable evidence that he is right. If he cannot, or will not provide verifiable evidence to support his theory, there is nothing to prove wrong.

    His refusal to identify the nature of the constant (intelligent designer) in his theory makes it impossible for his claims to be verified.

    The burden of proof lies with those making the claim.

    Right...It is a "theory", same as evolution,no? So, thats a strike for each side, correct?

    February 27, 2011 at 11:37 am |
    • Eric G.

      I am sorry, but you are wrong. They are not the same. Evolution theory and Intelligent Design theory are separate theories. Each theory carries its own burden of proof and requires it's own evidence to support it's claims. The evidence can then be tested to verify the claims made by the theory by others. Once the evidence is verified through testing with repeatable results, the evidence is demonstrative and the theory is proven.

      The evidence supporting evolution theory has been tested, verified and is demonstrative, thus proving evolution theory. I can provide references if you wish.

      Please provide the evidence to support intelligent design theory for verification.

      February 27, 2011 at 12:11 pm |
    • Corey

      Actually it's a false comparison.

      A theory is an idea (Hypothosis) which has objectively observable supporting facts to back it up. To call something a Theory is to state that there is objective proof.

      That covers most of our Scientific understanding, because it's very difficult to move beyond Theory to Law (which is conclusively demonstrated to be 100% accurate at all times).

      Evolution is a Theory because there is a fairly large body of objective, testable, evidence to support it, but not enough to conclusively demonstrate it to be 100% accurate at all times.

      Intelligent design, however, is NOT a Theory. It is, at best, a Hypothosis. It's basically only an idea people have, with absolutely no objective, testable evidence to support it. It is supported by faith alone. In truth Intelligent Design is really nothing more than a Relgious Belief given the cloak of Science, but from a Scientific perspective it is only a Hypothosis at best.

      That's why Scientists (In general) object to teaching it in schools. Not because of it's religious nature, but because it is not supported by objective, testable facts. That's not to say, of course, that there aren't Scientists out there with a spinal reflex reaction to deny the possibilty that doesn't even consult their forebrains, but that really doesn't make them any different from the true believer Creationists who react the same way to Evolution.

      Creationists really need to stop trying to tear down Evolution. It only makes them look foolish. They should simply say, in a calm and rational manner, that their they see Evolution as being in conflict with their beliefs and will stick to those beliefs out of faith. And then let the matter drop.

      Then Scientists should keep their collective noses out of religion and let the faithful get on with their beliefs without having someone attack them.

      Those last bits are just my opinion :)

      February 28, 2011 at 3:29 pm |
  16. Stanley

    HotAirAce

    @Stanley

    How many people have died because their shaman and charlatans sent them off on a holy war?

    How many people, including innocent children have died because. their deluded parents chose prayer over proven medical practices.

    Why can't you understand that science knows they almost never get it perfectly right the first time so use a repeatable process, the scientific method, to propose, test, modify and/or discard ideas in a open and shared manner.

    You seem to know that Einstein admitted his error with respect to the cosmological constant. Do you also know that he never gave up arguing against quantum physics, a theory that is successfully used every day? The point here is that even the greatest scientists can make mistakes, but the larger scientific community and the scientific method guarantee the correct theory/answer will be converged upon. Compare that to the dogmatic stance of religion – a phony belief system that starts and end with unproven manmade tribal myths, not open to true debate, and that only changes in order to maintain power over the gullible.

    @HotAirAce
    You asked:
    How many people have died because their shaman and charlatans sent them off on a holy war?

    Unfortunately, way too many. Happens even today.

    How many people, including innocent children have died because. their deluded parents chose prayer over proven medical practices

    Again, same answer, way toomay. However, These parents used poor judgement where thier children were concerned, or better yet, common sense. That is just my opinion. God heals thru medicine and medical doctors, and I don't think these people made good judgements. Again, some people are brought up to believe as thier parents did, without perhaps actually doing any collective research on things themselves. If they had, they may not have made those choices.

    Why can't you understand that science knows they almost never get it perfectly right the first time so use a repeatable process, the scientific method, to propose, test, modify and/or discard ideas in a open and shared manner.

    What makes you think I don't understand that? What I said was science, referring to the evolutionary part, and creationism, go hand in hand. Just as God in the mind of some, can't be proven to have created everything,( unless you are willing to take in account what was written in the bible) neither has evolution been proven by science. It is in fact, still a "theory", and thus,has not been proven.
    I think someday as science discovers more, it will conclude that both do go hand in hand as I said.
    I believe there is a great deal of proof of creationism, that does not conflict with evolution, nor vice versa.
    ****Splitting this in two parts, to answer.*****

    You seem to know that Einstein admitted his error with respect to the cosmological constant. Do you also know that he never gave up arguing against quantum physics, a theory that is successfully used every day? The point here is that even the greatest scientists can make mistakes, but the larger scientific community and the scientific method guarantee the correct theory/answer will be converged upon.
    Sure, I realize people make mistakes. I am also open, very much so, to science, and its abiltiy to discover answers. However, it has not yet been able to have all the answers needed, to back up some of these claims made for evolution. That is why it is a theory, and not a fact. Someday, it may well see that the beginning of creation, as described in the bible, had a valid premise, and we cannot rule anything out.

    Compare that to the dogmatic stance of religion – a phony belief system that starts and end with unproven manmade tribal myths, not open to true debate, and that only changes in order to maintain power over the gullible.

    You are comparing things that I see as two different categorys.One is using a record recorded in the bible, for determining creationism, (or what caused the "big bang" as some believe) in regards to science, and what can be proven, in that respect.
    The other, in my opinion, is your denial of the biblical accounts, period. That is regardless of what is ever presented,as to be open to "debate". How can one debate, first of all, when the opposing party right off the bat, totally refuses any thing submitted to be of any content? I am talking about things like Jesus existence even, using that as a example. Even though it is generally believe by most scholars, that he did in fact, exist. You call it a "phony belief system", but I ask you..Have you thourougly examined on your own, everything presented within that bible? Have you researched everything there is to aid you, down to what words meant, who the writers were, what the books were centered on, and so forth? I doubt many have. Some will say, I read it from cover to cover. I can read a magazine from cover to cover. Does not mean i read and researched each article.
    Here is a good example..you said, about "unproven manmade tribal myths". You are partially right about "tribal myths". Did you realize that some of the myths that the bible has recieved credit for, were actually myths held by some of the writers of the texts, like the Greeks?

    I borrow an exerpt from a source here written in the blog:

    the only surviving writings about Christianity from the first centuries after the apostles come mainly from men steeped in Greek thought and philosophy. These were Justin Martyr (110-165), Clement (160-220), Origen (185-254) and Augustine (354-430), all former disciples of the thinking of Plato and Aristotle. In this way Greek philosophy entered the Roman church and formed much of its theology.

    "The problem with Gentile Christians," notes church historian Samuele Bacchiocchi, "was not only their lack of familiarity with Scripture, but also their excessive fascination with their Greek philosophical speculations, which conditioned their understanding of Biblical truths. While Jewish Christians often erred in the direction of legalism, Gentile Christians often erred in the direction of philosophical speculations which sundered Christianity from its historical roots" (God's Festivals in Scripture and
    The Catholic theologian Augustine lived A.D. 354-430. The Encyclopaedia Britannica describes him as "the dominant personality of the Western Church of his time, generally recognized as the greatest thinker of Christian antiquity." It adds, "He fused the religion of the New Testament with the Platonic tradition of Greek philosophy" (15th edition, 1975, Micropaedia, Vol. 1, "Augustine of Hippo, Saint," pp. 649-650).

    Little did Augustine realize he was doing his followers a grave disservice by viewing parts of the Bible as allegorical while simultaneously incorporating into his teaching the views of the Greek philosophers. For the next 1,300 years, covering roughly the medieval age, the view of those pagan philosophers became the standard for the Roman church's explanation of the universe.

    Furthermore, ecclesiastical leaders adopted the earth-centered view of the universe held by Ptolemy, an Egyptian-born astronomer of the second century. "It was . . . from the work of previous [Greek] astronomers," says The Encyclopaedia Britannica, "that Ptolemy evolved his detailed description of an Earth-centered (geocentric) universe, a revolutionary but erroneous idea that governed astronomical thinking for over 1,300 years . . .

    "In essence, it is a synthesis of the results obtained by Greek astronomy . . . On the motions of the Sun, Moon, and planets, Ptolemy again extended the observations and conclusions of Hipparchus—this time to formulate his geocentric theory, which is popularly known as the Ptolemaic system" (15th edition, 1975, Macropaedia, Vol. 15, "Ptolemy," p. 179).

    The Bible and the universe
    Thus it was not the biblical perspective but the Greek view of the cosmos—in which everything revolved around a stationary earth—that was to guide man's concept of the universe for many centuries.
    The Roman Catholic Church made the mistake of tying its concept of the universe to that of earlier pagan philosophers and astronomers, then enforced that erroneous view.

    Although the Greeks thought the god Atlas held up first the heavens and later the earth, and the Hindus believed the earth rested atop four gigantic elephants, the Bible long revealed the true explanation. We read in Job 26:7 an astonishingly modern scientific concept, that God "hangs the earth on nothing." Science has demonstrated that this "nothing" is the invisible force of gravity that holds the planet in its orbit.

    Centuries passed before Nicolaus Copernicus in the 1500s calculated that the earth was not the center of the universe. However, he was cautious about challenging the Roman church on this belief.

    In the 1600s, Italian astronomer Galileo Galilei observed through a telescope the moons orbiting Jupiter—clear evidence against the idea that the heavenly bodies all revolve around the earth. After further observation of the planets, he came to agree with Copernicus' view that the earth revolves around the sun and not vice versa.
    Catholic authorities considered this idea heretical, and Galileo was threatened with death if he did not recant. Finally he did, although legend has it that, as he left the presence of the pope, he muttered under his breath regarding the earth, "And yet it moves."

    "When the Roman church attacked Copernicus and Galileo," says Christian philosopher Francis Schaeffer, "it was not because their teaching actually contained anything contrary to the Bible. The church authorities thought it did, but that was because Aristotelian elements had become part of church orthodoxy, and Galileo's notions clearly conflicted with them. In fact, Galileo defended the compatibility of Copernicus and the Bible, and this was one of the factors which brought about his trial" (How Should We Then Live? 1976, p. 131).

    Ironically, these first battles between scientists and the Bible pitted scientists against biblical misinterpretations, not against what the Bible actually says.

    Ok, so see where alot of this misinformed stuff came from? Yet, people will err and say, its the bible that is wrong. Not so.

    Several centuries later, a better biblical understanding actually furthered scientific advancements and achievements. The English scholar Robert Merton maintains that the values promoted by Puritanism in 17th-century England encouraged scientific endeavors. A Christian was to glorify God and serve Him through participating in activities of practical value to his community. He wasn't to withdraw into the contemplative life of monasteries and convents.

    Christians were to choose a vocation that best made use of their talents. Reason and education were praised in the context of educating people with practical knowledge, not the highly literary classics of pagan antiquity, that they might better do their life's work. Puritanism also encouraged literacy, because each believer had to be able to read the Bible for himself and not depend on what others said it meant.

    Historians note that the invention of the printing press and subsequent broader distribution of the Bible in the 1500s played a large role in the emergence of modern science. "The rise of modern science," says Francis Schaeffer, "did not conflict with what the Bible teaches; indeed, at a crucial point the Scientific Revolution rested upon what the Bible teaches.

    "Both Alfred North Whitehead and J. Robert Oppenheimer have stressed that modern science was born out of the Christian world view . . . As far as I know, neither of the two men were Christians . . . Because the early scientists believed that the world was created by a reasonable God, they were not surprised to discover that people could find out something true about nature and the universe on the basis of reason" (pp. 132-133).

    As this more biblically based science expanded, ecclesiastical leaders had to admit that some long-held positions were wrong. With the esteemed position that the earth was at the center of the universe proven false, the church lost both prestige and credibility to emerging science. As time went on, scientific study grew increasingly apart from the dominant religion, which was mired in its Greek and medieval thought.

    February 27, 2011 at 11:30 am |
    • HotAirAce

      A long-winded way of saying "science and the bible do not conflict, the bible is just misunderstood, or got a few points wrong." How can the infallible word of god be wrong and why is it so poorly written that there is any room for misunderstanding?

      February 27, 2011 at 2:19 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Hot Air, science proves the Bible to be factual. You're the one that has it backwards. The more science discovers, the more of God's truth is revealed.

      Stop with your brainwashing that science and the Truth written in the Bible are at odds with each other because they are not. True Science and the Truth in the Bible match perfectly.

      February 27, 2011 at 7:54 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      @HeavenScent

      Please explain the small problem involving the ratio of a bowl's circu-mference and it's diameter.

      Please explain how Noah managed to get two of every living thing on a boat?

      February 27, 2011 at 8:00 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      I don't know why folks don't want to understand that discoveries by scientists do prove the scriptures in the Bible to be true. The more they discover, the more we understand the Bible.

      Non-believers leave out one equation in all their debates. They don't understand God's time has nothing to do with how many measures time. He's the Alpha Omega. God cares less about time. Once, you get this in your head, you too will see how discoveries over the years have uncovered what was not in man's understanding ... all written in His truth how many years ago?

      Therefore, instead of looking down your noses at us, join us in uncovering what everyone hasn't uncovered yet.

      Peace.

      February 27, 2011 at 9:03 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Hot Air, Noah's flood was not global. Even other cultures wrote about the great flood in Noah's time.

      How God got all those animals on the ark? Christians don't question His truth.

      As for your problem with Pi. I'm sure you already found what you were looking for.

      February 27, 2011 at 10:03 pm |
    • evolvedDNA

      heavensent.. with regards to Noah..I would look for the remains of his boat on a very fertile island.. i would think the amount of dung generated would have easily grounded the boat.

      February 28, 2011 at 12:07 am |
    • HeavenSent

      evolvedDNA, I already said Noah's flood wasn't global. What land mass it covered? Uncover those scriptures to figure that out. What animals (2 of each) in his part of the world during the flood is what you need to work on. As for you remark about remains of a wooden Ark from Noah's day. Obviously, you've never restored wooden boats from the 1930s or 1940s and seen their disintegration.

      Oh, that sin of Pride blinds a person every time.

      March 2, 2011 at 5:24 am |
    • The Truth

      LOL... virtually ALL cultures have mammoth flood stories and Noah's story was "borrowed" from other flood stories that preceded the Bible... just like Jesus wandering in the desert in the NT was lifted from Moses wandering the desert in the OT and just like Moses was lifted from other stories preceding the Bible.

      As for Noah's ark, it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to have lived even if he did build the ark. Educate yourself:

      >
      Why don't you just ask yourself how the Noah story is possibly true? As a CHILD, I realized that this was impossible.

      Just ask yourself this: Since the Bible is apparently inerrant, how exactly Noah was able to get 2 of every species (7 of some depending on which passage you read) on a boat? The story is pretty clearly fiction.

      #1: There is no geological evidence of a global flood that destroyed the Earth.

      #2: The Biblical story of Noah has contradictions in it.

      #3: The only people I know that live to be over 500 years old are fictional. Noah, Gandalf, Yoda, etc.

      #4: How exactly did Noah gather up marsupials that are native to Australia?

      #5: Anyone who has seen the Crocodile Hunter knows that one man grabbing a croc isn't easy work. And anyone who has ever tried to catch a stray cat or dog knows how hard it is... now imagine doing that with 600 pound tiger. Now imagine a multi-hundred year old man doing it.

      #6: How exactly did Noah provide food for all of those different animals when the entire Earth was covered in water? An elephant can eat well in excess of 500 lbs of food per day. Perhaps he just pulled the ark into the floating Costco drive thru window. lol

      The list goes on and on.

      Stop and think about this. That's 40,000 pounds of food alone for just two elephants!!! Now let's throw in 2 blue whales onto the boat. They can weigh around 400,000 pounds each!!! On top of that, they can eat over 8,000 pounds of krill per day!!! That's 640,000 pounds of food just for the whales!!! The weight of the whales and their food now equals 1,440,000 pounds. In comparison, the main space shuttle orbiter has a maximum landing weight of 230,000 pounds. So Noah's Ark would have held the weight of more than 6 space shuttles at maximum landing weight just with the 2 blue whales alone. (none of that even begins to talk about the fact that Noah would have needed to bring along more than 2 (or 7) individual krill to feed those whales.)

      And don't say something like, "The whales could just swim along side the ark" because that much excess water (that supposedly flooded the earth) would have changed the salinity levels in the oceans. If you've ever owned salt water fish before, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Funny how they don't teach that stuff in church huh?

      The above is only talking about 2 species (elephants and blue whales). What about Great White Sharks, Orcas, Grizzlies, Lions, Tigers, Hippos, etc, etc, etc... Never to mind the fact that some animals are carnivores only, so Noah would have needed to bring WAY more than 2 (or 7) animals of some kinds aboard.

      Oh yeah, when Noah (being well over 500 years old) has his ship run aground on top of Ararat, how exactly does he then get all the marsupials back to Australia, all the grizzlies back to Western North America, all the polar bears back to the North Pole, all the anacondas back to South America, all the emperor penguins back to Antarctica, etc, etc, etc? Does he build another boat? lol

      I won't even begin to talk about how we discover new species every single day. But I guess Noah found all of those too.

      Seriously, try to explain the Noah story ON YOUR OWN and you'll see that it has no reasonable explanation. Why? Because it is a fictional story. To believe this story is real, I'll ask for evidence of other 900 year old men (by valid scientific sources), evidence of a flood that covered the earth (King's Holly was found in Tasmania that is over 43,000 years old so the flood didn't happen in the last 43,000 years), etc, etc, etc... You can't provide it because it is a fictional story. It is basic common sense. If I said Bill Gates gathered up two of every species and put them on a boat, you'd laugh because it is impossible, yet because it is in a 2,000 year old book written by uneducated men, it somehow makes it fact. Simply mindboggling.

      Additionally:

      NO HUMAN could have survived if that much water flooded the Earth.

      Here are a handful of the problems:

      1) Direct evidence for a global flood is non-existent.

      2) There is no flood signature on the Earth itself.

      3) To flood the Earth, we'd need 5 times the volume of water that exists in the oceans.

      4) If we took ALL the water from the oceans, ALL the water from the ice, ALL the water contained in the atmosphere and ALL the water from the rocks (which has actually happened in the past), it STILL doesn't flood the Earth.

      5) If it rained for 40 days and nights non stop it STILL doesn't flood the Earth.

      6) It is impossible to have that much water come out of the Earth via springs, geysers and "cracks." If all of that water was contained inside the Earth (as many Christian "claim" is the case when they get desperate because the other options clearly don't work), then you wouldn't have been able to walk on the surface because the Earth's crust would have turned into a literal quicksand soup.

      7) If it was a miracle that allowed this much water to happen, then Noah and the animals would STILL have been dead because of the massive amount of water vapor in the atmosphere would have drowned them simply by breathing. That is of course if they were lucky enough to get in a few breaths before the atmospheric pressure crushed their lungs and killed them first before they drowned.
      If was caused by geysers alone, then you still wouldn't have been able to breathe due to the huge amounts of sulfuric gases.

      9) Since NONE of that can cause the flood, the only other option is a comet due to it carrying water with it. The problem here is that comet would have needed be 1,000 miles wide or approximately the size of Brazil. This would have forced the temperature of the atmosphere to skyrocket all the way up to 12,000 degrees Fahrenheit or hotter than the surface of the sun. There would have been no life left on Earth.

      10) As can be plainly seen, this story is fiction.

      >

      So do you get it yet? It is IMPOSSIBLE. To realize it is impossible means you understand reality. To not accept this is to live in delusion.

      Peace.

      March 2, 2011 at 5:55 am |
    • The Truth

      And in the nicest possible way, this is what you are doing ALREADY... you are trying to "spin" this story and to "justify" it to fit with your current belief schema instead of just recognizing the overly obvious that it isn't real.

      Here is the quote from Genesis: "I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy ALL life under the heavens, EVERY creature that has the breath of life in it. EVERYTHING on earth will perish."

      So God destroyed ALL life under the Heavens if it wasn't a global flood as you claim? Did everything on Earth perish as God claims? No on both accounts so logic would suggest that either:

      1) God is inept.
      2) God is a liar.
      3) This story is written by uneducated men and it is fiction.

      Hmmm... tough choice now isn't it?

      More from Genesis: "Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth"

      LOL... I mean come on. Name me all the 600 hundred year old people you know. In fact, I'll make it easier for you... name me all the 150 year old people you know. This is FICTION.

      More from Gensis: "Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark."

      So if it was just a localized flood, how did the birds die? They could have just flown somewhere else. There are some birds that can fly 11,000 kilometers NON-STOP. But according to your God and your reasoning, they must have died in a localized global flood. Do you understand that this makes NO SENSE? So once again:

      1) God is inept.
      2) God is a liar.
      3) This story is written by uneducated men and it is fiction.

      I could go on and on and on.

      But this is what you do... you run around proclaiming how the Bible supposedly successfully predicted this, that and the other thing in the future. You take these at face value. But then when something doesn't work, you go out of your way to not take it at face value and make "justifications" (aka excuses) for it. You do it over and over and over and over and over again. It is borderline comical. Go back and look at your own posts objectively and you'll see it. I'm sure others here will tell you the same thing if you ask them objectively.

      I've got to run now... my 750 year old neighbor is knocking at my door...

      My comments are self-explanatory to all rational people... the last word is yours if you'd like it.

      Peace!

      March 2, 2011 at 6:32 am |
    • The Truth

      The way the scriptures get "spun" and "justified" around here by some people is on the exact same level of this classic line:

      [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-_3y0&w=640&h=390]

      The only major difference is that Bill knew what he was doing was ridiculous, while some of the people "rationalizing" things here live in a world void of reality when it comes to religion.

      Cheers!

      March 2, 2011 at 6:49 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Twice I tried to post the appropriate way to read scriptures on Noah's flood. As I said, it wasn't global, it was regional.

      But, the CNN mod squadders refuse to accept this post, as is most of the Christian posts proving you to be wrong about how you interpret the Bible. I find that odd. What is it folks in the bible, THEY don't want you to know.

      March 3, 2011 at 2:07 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Fact, Noah's flood was not global but regional. What does regional mean? Therefore, a handful of animals were taken on His ark and those of Noah's family that weren't tainted by the fallen angels living in those days. The fallen angels wanted to corrupt the bloodline to bring forth Emmanuel.

      The rest of society lived because they were populated around the globe. But, my posts of what scriptures you need to look on in Genesis and throughout the Bible to explain how you truly get to understand the flood is refused.

      So, stay dumbed down by the 4 horns overseeing your lives today.

      March 3, 2011 at 7:32 pm |
    • The Truth

      *** @HeavenSent: Twice I tried to post the appropriate way to read scriptures on Noah's flood. As I said, it wasn't global, it was regional.***

      There you go again thinking that you know "the appropriate way to read scriptures." Here's the reality: No one knows for sure.

      If the flood was regional as you claim, then I suppose ALL life on the planet lived in that region too. After all, God claimed to destroy all life.

      *****But, the CNN mod squadders refuse to accept this post, as is most of the Christian posts proving you to be wrong about how you interpret the Bible. I find that odd. What is it folks in the bible, THEY don't want you to know.*******

      I say this in all seriousness: You are completely delusional. This has been explained to you OVER and OVER again by NUMEROUS people and yet you STILL won't accept it.

      Guess what? My posts get hit by the "CNN mod squadders" all the time and guess what? Yep... I have ALWAYS found a way to post what I wanted to say.

      The fact that you and "most of the Christian posts proving you to be wrong" can't figure out how to successfully post goes back to the studies which show the more someone believes in religion, the lower their intelligence levels. This isn't rocket science. It's "amazing" how the posts the Christians are supposedly trying to "prove wrong" are able to get posted. It is because those people are intelligent enough to figure out how to post here.

      Or perhaps God simply wants to hear our voices and not yours because we are correct. lol

      I'm going to type this really s-l-o-w-l-y so perhaps you can FINALLY understand it: There are NO CNN Mod Squadders like you continue to trick yourself into believing!!! It is a basic computer sof-twa-re program that censors out certain words. In fact, the list of these words that activate the sof-twa-re has been actually presented SPECIFICALLY TO YOU on numerous occasions.

      And yet you STILL think that these CNN Mod Squadders exist in an effort to conspire against you!!! This is BEYOND delusion. This is actual PARANOID SCHIZOPHRENIA. From the Mayo Clinic's definition: "In paranoid schizophrenia, a common delusion is that you're being singled out for harm." You have said that same thing that the Mod Squadders are censoring you over and over and over again on countless threads.

      It is like I'm listening to the poor man's version of A Beautiful Mind.

      In any event (and I'm being totally serious and not being mean), you should consider seeking help for these delusions. It hasn't just been one instance of displaying signs/symptoms, but a plethora of instances. There are existing medications that can help you with this.

      Good luck.

      Peace.

      PS... this particular post got hit for moderation by those imaginary people and yet I was still able to find a way to post it.

      March 3, 2011 at 7:54 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.