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February 25th, 2011
10:24 AM ET

Church leader reverses stance on HIV, reaches out to those affected

HIV is a curse from God. That's what Patricia Sawo used to tell others as a church leader in Kitale, Kenya.

"I thought it was a moral issue and a punishment for the disobedient," Sawo remembers.

Then one morning in 1999, Sawo awoke to find her body covered in shingles, a rash commonly associated with HIV. Scared and upset, she cried in the bathroom for two hours. A test soon confirmed her fears: She was HIV-positive.

"I couldn't believe it," said Sawo, now 45. "It was, 'Oh my God, how could this happen to me?' "

Read the full story
- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Africa • HIV • Kenya

soundoff (235 Responses)
  1. BellaDonna

    Steve (the real one)

    @Reality, You left out a few more "cons"

    1. When it comes to Christianity, you are CON-fused
    2- Your hard heart will not allow the Holy Spirit to CON-vict you of sin
    3. You need to be CON-verted and thus saved!
    4. If you CON-tinue in your ways, your future will not be CON-ducive to joy
    5. I am sure you are still not CON-vinced

    Right on Steve! Thats a classic! Keep up the good work, brother 🙂

    February 26, 2011 at 12:26 pm |
    • Steve (the real one)

      Hi BellaDonna,

      Good to hear from you. I hope all is well! Stay Blessed!

      February 26, 2011 at 12:28 pm |
  2. GodLover

    Opps, post went out before I was done. Anyway. unbelievers needed signs, so that was one of them. They had no faith, like many today.

    February 26, 2011 at 12:23 pm |
  3. GodLover

    John Quest...If I may answer? Those gifts were imparted only to the apostles of the day. There were people like yourself who were unbelievers.

    February 26, 2011 at 12:22 pm |
  4. GodLover

    We read in Job 26:7 an astonishingly modern scientific concept, that God "hangs the earth on nothing." Science has demonstrated that this "nothing" is the invisible force of gravity that holds the planet in its orbit.

    February 26, 2011 at 12:19 pm |
    • Magic

      GodLover,

      That the Earth "hangs on nothing" was a simple observation by these primitive people... they looked up/around/over and didn't see any strings, ropes, vines or other supporting mechanisms. In another place they talk about the Earth being set upon 4 pillars.

      They had the scientific knowledge of today's 10 year-olds.

      February 26, 2011 at 12:45 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      And they may have looked at the moon and noticed no strings, or turtles, there either.

      February 26, 2011 at 12:48 pm |
    • Magic

      p.s. I should have said that they had *less* scientific knowledge than today's 10 year-olds.... or maybe even younger.

      Picture a group of 6 year-olds, with their imaginary superheros and monsters and superst!tions and such... would you have them rule the world?

      February 26, 2011 at 1:02 pm |
  5. JohnQuest

    HeavenSent, you said "My suggestion, stop being lazy and read His truth ... especially Mark 16:16". will I read it, as a matter of fact I read all of Mark 16. It seems to me that according to Mark if one "believed" one could drink poison (without the effects), heal the sick (just by touching them), cast out demons, speak in new tongues (speaking different languages at will), and take up snakes (not being bit or not being poisoned if bitten by a poisonous snake).

    Can you do any of these things? If not, according to your own beliefs you are not a believer and will spend the rest of eternity with the rest of us non believers being tortured in a magical land by the evil deity.

    February 26, 2011 at 9:22 am |
  6. Stanley

    Science will be a stumbling block. Many times Science has erred, or had to be changed, based on new information.I believe Science and God are not contrary to one another. But, who is to say that( based on the fact the scientific research has failed to know what caused the "big bang".), it could not someday prove to be caused by God, or some supernatural means?Personally, I believe God created it all. If he "breathed" breath into man, why could he not "breathe" on all of creation?
    Some examples

    Andrew Wakefield's "data" blaming vaccination for autism turns out to have been fraudulent. The motive? He was paid by a legal team that planned use the data in lawsuits. How many thousands of children were denied a much-needed vaccine because their parents believed this study?

    The Static Universe
    Prior to scientists embracing the notion that the universe was created as the result of the Big Bang, it was commonly believed that the size of the universe was an unchanging constant—it had always been the size it was, and always would be. The idea stated that that the total volume of the universe was effectively fixed, and that the whole construct operated as a closed system. The theory found its biggest adherent in Albert Einstein—the Static Universe is often known as “Einstein’s Universe”—who argued in favor of it and even calculated it into his theory of general relativity.

    How it was Proven Wrong:

    The theory of a static universe was problematic from the start. First of all, a finite universe could theoretically become so dense that it would collapse into a giant black hole, a problem Einstein compensated for with his principle of the “cosmological constant.” Still, the final nail in the coffin for the idea was Edwin Hubble’s discovery of the relationship between red shift—the way the color of heavenly bodies change as they move away from us—and distance, which showed that the universe was indeed expanding. Einstein would subsequently abandon his model, and would later refer to it as the “biggest blunder” of his career. Still, like all cosmological ideas, the expanding universe is just a theory, and a small group of scientists today still subscribe to the old static model

    Read more at: http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-most-famous-scientific-theories-that-turned-out-to-be-wrong.php

    February 26, 2011 at 9:16 am |
    • JohnQuest

      Stanley, you seem to be a reasonable person to me, why do you believe God created it all?

      February 26, 2011 at 9:29 am |
    • HotAirAce

      @Stanley

      How many people have died because their shaman and charlatans sent them off on a holy war?

      How many people, including innocent children have died because. their deluded parents chose prayer over proven medical practices.

      Why can't you understand that science knows they almost never get it perfectly right the first time so use a repeatable process, the scientific method, to propose, test, modify and/or discard ideas in a open and shared manner.

      You seem to know that Einstein admitted his error with respect to the cosmological constant. Do you also know that he never gave up arguing against quantum physics, a theory that is successfully used every day? The point here is that even the greatest scientists can make mistakes, but the larger scientific community and the scientific method guarantee the correct theory/answer will be converged upon. Compare that to the dogmatic stance of religion – a phony belief system that starts and end with unproven manmade tribal myths, not open to true debate, and that only changes in order to maintain power over the gullible.

      February 26, 2011 at 10:10 am |
  7. Informer

    Gee, Reality, if all those had "pretty winged thingies" could be that every thing down thru time expierienced them, huh? Fairy tales have an ending, seems these go on and on. Wonder why that is?

    February 26, 2011 at 7:22 am |
    • Informer

      Hot Air Ace, one more thing.
      You said: I want them to stop, but know that it is entirely up to us to behave better, not some manmade tribal mythological being

      Ever stop and think WHY man has not been able to "stop" down thry time? Its called "sin". Man can never stop his sinning, without the help offered by God. Sin is in mans nature. There is no good thing in us. How could you know right from wrong, if the very sinful nature we all have, was not present to show us the other side of the coin? Or do you believe that is something you automatically have...goodness?

      February 26, 2011 at 7:30 am |
    • Reality

      It is called superst-ition which is still present even in the 21st century.

      February 26, 2011 at 9:09 am |
    • Evolved DNA

      Several things... drugs taken at religious ceremonies in many cultures, and just plain mental illness..

      February 26, 2011 at 10:15 am |
    • HotAirAce

      @Informer

      And religious charlatans who tell the flock that it's ok to kill or otherwise ignore the universal rules of society that did manage to find their way into the tribe's book-of-silliness, whenever it suits them.

      Believers often try to paint atheists as being angry or having no purpose because we do not believe in any god. Of course this not true, but in any event, I would rather be an atheist than be a believer with "no good thing in us" – how depressing, but I suppose it's just one mental illness tagging along with another (the continued belief in childish superst!tins).

      February 26, 2011 at 10:41 am |
  8. tj

    god is just like santa, it's time to move on.

    February 26, 2011 at 1:09 am |
  9. Informer

    BTW...Satan has not manifested himsel to you, because it is not necessary. He loves that you don't believe in him. Mission accomplished...while he lays in wait....

    February 25, 2011 at 9:10 pm |
    • Reality

      It is called the Great Angelic/Satanic Con Game:

      Joe Smith had his Moroni.

      Jehovah Witnesses have their Jesus /Michael the archangel, the first angelic being created by God;

      Mohammed had his Gabriel (this "tin-kerbell" got around) and his jinn.

      Jesus and his family had Michael, Gabriel, and Satan, the latter being a modern day Dem-on of the De-mented.

      The Abraham-Moses myths had their Angel of Death and other "no-namers" to do their dirty work or other assorted duties.

      Contemporary biblical and religious scholars have relegated these "pretty/ugly wingie thingies" to the myth pile. We should do the same to include deleting all references to them in our religious operating manuals. Doing this will eliminate the prophet/profit/prophecy status of these founders and put them where they belong as simple humans just like the rest of us.
      Some added references to "tink-erbells".

      "Latter-day Saints also believe that Michael the Archangel was Adam (the first man) when he was mortal, and Gabriel lived on the earth as Noah."

      Apparently hallu-cinations did not stop with Joe Smith.

      newadvent.org/cathen/07049c.htm

      "The belief in guardian angels can be traced throughout all antiquity; pagans, like Menander and Plutarch (cf. Euseb., "Praep. Evang.", xii), and Neo-Platonists, like Plotinus, held it. It was also the belief of the Babylonians and As-syrians, as their monuments testify, for a figure of a guardian angel now in the British Museum once decorated an As-syrian palace, and might well serve for a modern representation; while Nabopolassar, father of Nebuchadnezzar the Great, says: "He (Marduk) sent a tutelary deity (cherub) of grace to go at my side; in everything that I did, he made my work to succeed."

      Catholic monks and Dark Age theologians also did their share of hallu-cinating:

      "TUBUAS-A member of the group of angels who were removed from the ranks of officially recognized celestial hierarchy in 745 by a council in Rome under Pope Zachary. He was joined by Uriel, Adimus, Sabaoth, Simiel, and Raguel."

      And tin-ker- bells go way, way back:

      "In Zoroastrianism there are different angel like creatures. For example each person has a guardian angel called Fravashi. They patronize human being and other creatures and also manifest god’s energy. Also, the Amesha Spentas have often been regarded as angels, but they don't convey messages, but are rather emanations of Ahura Mazda ("Wise Lord", God); they appear in an abstract fashion in the religious thought of Zarathustra and then later (during the Achaemenid period of Zoroastrianism) became personalized, associated with an aspect of the divine creation (fire, plants, water...)."
      "The beginnings of the biblical belief in angels must be sought in very early folklore. The gods of the Hitti-tes and Canaanites had their supernatural messengers, and parallels to the Old Testament stories of angels are found in Near Eastern literature. "

      "The 'Magic Papyri' contain many spells to secure just such help and protection of angels. From magic traditions arose the concept of the guardian angel. "

      For added information see the review at:
      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel

      February 25, 2011 at 11:26 pm |
    • Steve (the real one)

      @Reality, You left out a few more "cons"

      1. When it comes to Christianity, you are CON-fused
      2- Your hard heart will not allow the Holy Spirit to CON-vict you of sin
      3. You need to be CON-verted and thus saved!
      4. If you CON-tinue in your ways, your future will not be CON-ducive to joy
      5. I am sure you are still not CON-vinced

      February 25, 2011 at 11:39 pm |
  10. Informer

    Do you not understand, that God is not here to watch every move made by the Earth and its inhabitants? No, he is here in the form of the Holy Spirit, to lead men into the truth and lead them so thier souls can be saved and make it to heaven. He is here to lead and guide and comfort.

    Satan, your adversary, knows his time is short. He is the one you should be directing your anger at....this is HIS world. It is he who murders, kills and destroys.

    You say you don't believe, but you want God to stop hurricanes, floods and famine? You get mad at God if a child suffers, for not protecting , yet you are not mad at the evil one who put the children in harms way to begin with?

    Every person that lives on this earth, is subject to the hateful things that the devil and his workers are doing.
    Well, if you think things are bad now, wait till the Holy Spirit leaves the world, then you will see something to complain about.
    Just make sure you know who is responsible.

    It is amasing how you all want all these things covered, but you won't even help yourselves. Put your "faith" into things that can be understood, felt and touched. One day you will find out that you have eyes that will alow you to see things that yo'll wish you could not see, and feel things that you wish you could not feel.
    Science will be at a loss to explain these too, and then who are you gonna call? A dinosuar?

    February 25, 2011 at 9:09 pm |
    • evolvedDNA

      So satan likes it if I dont believe in him but loves me anyway and I will eventually be taken under his spell, and god only loves me if I believe in him other wise I get sent to the devil... no wonder I'm athiest. And the religious feel we should not trust ourselves or put trust in each other and depend on prayer, which at best, works as well as chance....luckily I am mythically challenged so I am immune to this stuff.

      February 26, 2011 at 1:23 am |
    • HotAirAce

      Nice strawman argument – the only kind thumpers can win...

      I don't believe any god exists, not a single one. It would be incredibility stupid, illogical and inconsistent of my to want your, or any other, god to prevent the situations you listed. I want them to stop, but know that it is entirely up to us to behave better, not some manmade tribal mythological being. More than I anything, I want religion to die a quick and peaceful death so society can move more quickly to deal with real problem, as opposed to spending endless hours making up dogma to explain the twisted fairy tales known as religion.

      February 26, 2011 at 1:33 am |
    • Informer

      Hot Air Ace....Someday your gone to get your wish, because as I said, the Holy Spirit will be withdrawn from the world. I just hope your not around when it happens. If all holiness/godliness is gone from this world, I feel sorry for it. The very terrible things that happened back in history, that we all hated, like the inquistion and so on, will look like childs play, compared to whats gone to take place.

      Mayby then, some who may expierience it, will be remembering the words of the "thumpers" or so called strawman arguments. Its easy to dismiss evrything as fairytales, but believe me , you'll see a fairytale come true, and wish you had listened to those of us you all mock.

      If you think religion is or will be a threat dominating money, rights and all else that you all mention as a threat, just wait and see. Wiat till your rights are taken from you, and your vote as well. Anti_Christ has already begun its work, to comply with your current wishes, but wait till you see the end results of that. I can guarantee you that every wish you have today, you will regret.

      It won't matter what you believe or don't believe, because when all this happens (and it is gone to) your adversary won't be on your side, but laughing at how blinded you were, and rejoicing in glee.

      Good news is, he will only have a short time to wreak havoc. God will be back, and finally bind and throw the devil in Hell. That will be one day you will be happy to see come. Then, the judgement of the world and its peoples.

      Christians already see this all in the works. We have had many "rights" taken from us. Prayer has been taken out of schools, Jesus Christ is mocked and made fun of, nothing "holy" is allowed in any public place, etc. Christianity is under attack, like never in the history of the world.

      In the end, you can all yourself whatever you choose, but your ti*tle won't matter. I hope Science can come up with some solutions to help save you, when the sun begins to burn the earth, and plagues most worse then any disease man has ever known run rampid, not to mention the horrors that the bible has described , "mens own hearts failing the for fear".

      So, enjoy your freedom of Godliness while you can. Just remember what I have told you today. The God of love has not brought all the hell to this earth, not before and not now. He wants you to be with him, before this all comes, and loves you.
      So do we, or we wouldn't be trying to let you know what awaits in the future.

      You can rant and rave and sound off about your personal godliness, but someday, it will be to late to take it all back.

      February 26, 2011 at 7:14 am |
    • HotAirAce

      @Informer

      Believers have been peddling this bullish!t and coercing the gullible and weak of mind for well over 2000 years and none (0, zero, nada) of their/your predictions have come true. Every generation of believers believes we are near end times. They were all wrong and so are you. Your rant does not frighten me, or any person with a fully functioning brain. It does cause me sadness to see that superst!tion and/or untreated mental illness is still with us.

      PS: several thumpers have claimed that numerous biblical prophecies have been fulfilled and that we are in/near end times. When asked for an unambiguous list, none have come up with same, and I suspect you won't, 'cause you can't, but please do try.

      February 26, 2011 at 11:00 am |
    • Evolved DNA

      Informer.. so you have had rights taken from you... well religions have been working hard over the Milena to take rights from those who do not believe or are outside of the "group think" of the religion. Rights are nothing more than what society affords to you.. society is a dynamic force and moves ahead.. if some of your practices are no longer acceptable they either have to change or you lose the right. I mean.. do you still think it acceptable to sacrifice vir-gins or perhaps a goat in church on Sunday....

      February 26, 2011 at 1:19 pm |
  11. CW

    @ Doc,

    Well I see you have gone on one of your "I LOVE G-'AYNESS AND THINK BEING G-'AY IS OKAY RANTS". Fact of the matter is that HIV was thought when it first came out that it was due to G-a'y people. Now with that said we now know the differences in how you can get this virus..ie transfusions...infected needle's etc. Anyway with that said....I'll say again "Being g-'ay and acting on those urges IS A CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!" If one is a christian they per the BIBLE put to de-'ath their own fleshy desires and live according to God's good book.

    @ David Johnson,

    Your question to me "I'm curious. Do you believe god created the HIV virus? If not, who or what did?"

    Here is what I believe....1) God allows suffering so that we will turn and humble ourselves and put all our faith and hope in him. 2) In the old testament God allowed for sufferings among all the Israelites in order for them to see their wrong so in essence I do believe that God "ALLOWED" for the HIV virus to come about in order to change our ways. This has HAPPENED as people don't bed hop like they did before the virus came about. 3) I also believe that our Lord has "ALLOWED" man to make advances in medicine so that those that have gotten the virus intentionally thru human error(those that got the virus thru untested transfusions) can live their lives a bit longer. Hope this answers you.

    February 25, 2011 at 4:27 pm |
    • Despising religious insanity

      That is absolutely batsh!t insane!
      So a little kid who is being tortured to death needs to "turn and humble" themselves and put all their faith and hope in god – presumably because these terrified kids being abused are...arrogant before "him".
      And your "god" allows these helpless kids to suffer in order for them to see their "wrong" – since they are obviously hardened sinners who need god to punish them for being born to retards like you.

      Well, CW, I'm glad you clarified things for us. It explains why the catholic church is so helpful to their pedo-priests!

      So if I came over to your house and slowly ripped your guts out, it would be helpful to god and would make you turn and humble yourself instead of spouting foolish nonsense in an arrogant and prideful manner on the internet.
      Thanks, but I don't want to get your slime on me.

      February 25, 2011 at 4:46 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @CW

      I will respond to your comment, but I am heading home now. I will reply, probably this evening. I found your answers...puzzling.

      Cheers!

      February 25, 2011 at 5:06 pm |
    • LJ

      "Being g-'ay and acting on those urges IS A CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!"" WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A panel of experts in science and psychology have proven otherwise. The fact you don't want to personally believe them is your choice but spreading LIES is also not Christian!

      February 25, 2011 at 5:48 pm |
    • Evolved DNA

      CW.. being g-ay is a choice in the same way that belief in god a mental illness...

      February 25, 2011 at 6:16 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      For all the non-believers, this buds for you.

      Jesus Christ was "des-pised and re-jected of men", "He hath borne our griefs", "He was wounded for our trans-gres-sions", "and with His stripes we are healed", "all we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way", "the LORD hath laid on Him the in-i-quit-y of us all", "He was op-press-ed, and He was af-flict-ed, yet He opened not His mouth", "He was cut off out of the land of the liv-ing: for the trans-gres-sion of my people was He stric-k-en", "and He made his grave with the wic-k-ed", "and with the rich in His death", "yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief: when thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin", "by His know-ledge shall my right-e-ous serv-ant just-ify many; for He shall bear their in-i-q-uities", "He bare the sin of many, and made inter-ces-sion for the trans-gres-sors." All He wants us to do is to believe, is that so much to ask?

      Spring, 29 AD, on the Pas-s-over, Jesus Christ of Na-z-areth, the Son of the liv-ing God, was cruc-i-fied on the cross of Pa-gan R-ome; He was betrayed by a friend, and had a false witness brought against Him by the high-est reli-g-ious body of the time in Jer-u-s-alem (the San-he-drin) by ungodly play actors who were not of true Isr-a-el nor of true Ju-dah but rather were the sons of Cain (Ken-ites) the first murderer who called them-selves Je-ws but were not of Ju-dah.

      John 8:42-44
      42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
      43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
      44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speak-eth a lie, he speak-eth of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

      These Ken-ites (sons of Cain, the first murd-e-rer) will once again play a role in pro-p-hecy in our life-time:

      Revelation 3:9
      9 Behold, I will make them of the syn-a-g-ogue of Sa-tan, which say they are Jew-s, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

      That is why every one must be learn-ed in His truth from the Bible, for the Bible warns us of all things. Those who wish to get stroked and blinded by sa-tan's lies and work along with him are the ones who tell us that the Bible is just a fairy tale. The Bible speaks of those who deny Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross for our salvation.

      You many also want to read the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians to read ALL His truth.

      1 Corinthians 1:18 (The preaching of the cross (Christianity) defended)
      18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

      I do hope you non-noes comprehend who you follow.

      Amen.

      February 25, 2011 at 7:12 pm |
    • evolvedDNA

      Heavensent..You realise that the fear that lives in your heart is not universal.. and that some of us have moved on from demons. You may fear demons such as "satan" ( he makes great sheets by the way) but we do not. Satan no more exists than god... all figments of a very fertile human imagination, as is your bible. And I also am aware of the spelling..just a little joke.. .

      February 25, 2011 at 8:55 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      @CW

      Being gay and acting upon it is the same situation christians face with respect to teen-age s3x and/or unplanned pregnancy. If believers did not act upon their s3xual drives and merely followed their own tribal rules, given the overwhelming number of christians in the USA, the number of abortions would drop dramaticaly.

      Abortion is largely a believer problem. How about you believers clean up your own backyard before imposing your views on the rest of us?

      February 26, 2011 at 10:26 am |
  12. JohnQuest

    David Johnson, I don't know about you but for me, the only way this world makes sense is if there were no deities. If there is no God then the questions of good and evil is only related to human consciousness and human behavior. The Kluth's committed evil acts not because God allowed it but because the Kluths' are amoral and possibly sociopaths. AIDS is not a cures form God but a virus that we can find a cure for (I hope). Once God is removed from our intellectual\decision making paradigm we as humans can think clearer about the decisions we make.

    February 25, 2011 at 4:05 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @JohnQuest

      You are exactly right. I wish the rest of the world saw reality as clearly as you do.

      What I marvel at, is the tenacity of the believers. Evidence and logic is absolutely meaningless to them.

      Cheers!

      February 25, 2011 at 4:42 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      JQ, is "I hope" you way of saying "I pray" SMILE.

      February 25, 2011 at 6:51 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      JQ, typed to fast ...dropped the r in your.

      February 25, 2011 at 6:53 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      I definitely have to eat dinner. Dropped the o in too.

      Good nite trekkies.

      February 25, 2011 at 6:54 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      JonhQuest, that's what's wrong with your carnal thinking because you don't read His truth in the Bible. First, there are more believers in the world than non, yet you write this baloney because of others in your generation don't know what's up or not. You haven't grown into who you are yet and follow the ways of the other lazies that don't know how, or if they did, never humbled themselves enough to read the Bible to comprehend it. Hence, just read what all the other non-noes constantly picking scriptures out because they don't know what it means.

      My suggestion, stop being lazy and read His truth ... especially Mark 16:16.

      Amen.

      February 25, 2011 at 7:01 pm |
    • evolvedDNA

      JQ I agree.. the world makes sense if you try not to understand it in religious terms. You can see how those who believe have to invent all sorts of beings in order to take the heat off of god.. who is supposed to be looking after them.

      February 25, 2011 at 9:02 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      @evolvedDNA

      Not to mention all the twisted and circular logic they are forced to invent to explain the ridiculous. Religion is a house of cards, that slowly but surely will collapse – I fervently hope (with no chance that I mean "pray").

      February 26, 2011 at 2:00 am |
    • David Johnson

      @HeavenSent

      You said: "JonhQuest, that's what's wrong with your carnal thinking because you don't read His truth in the Bible. First, there are more believers in the world than non..."

      Ummm... There are way more non Christian believers, than there are Christian.

      Christianity 2.1 billion
      Islam 1.5 billion
      Irreligious/agnostic/atheism 1.1 billion
      Hinduism 900 million
      Chinese traditional religion 394 million
      Buddhism 376 million
      Animist religions 300 million
      African traditional/diasporic religions 100 million
      Sikhism 23 million
      Juche 19 million
      Spiritism 15 million
      Judaism 14 million
      Baha'i 7 million
      Jainism 4.2 million
      Shinto 4 million
      Cao Dai 4 million
      Zoroastrianism 2.6 million
      Tenrikyo 2 million
      Neo-Paganism 1 million
      Unitarian Universalism 800,000
      Rastafari Movement 600,000"
      http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

      Which brings me to:

      There are so many versions of god(s). Some, not even human (The elephant-faced god – Ganesha etc.). Each religion, each denomination of each religion, defines god's wants differently. All of these religions cannot be right. But they can all be wrong.
      Perhaps man has not yet found the one true god, or perhaps He does not exist.

      Why would the one true god(s) leave room for confusion? Doesn't He want everyone, or most everyone, to know He exists and is the one true god?

      1. If God existed, this fact would be more obvious.
      So obvious in fact, that EVERYONE, or nearly everyone would believe in His existence. There would be only worshipers of the one true god.

      2. God's existence is not, in fact, as obvious as we would expect, if he existed.
      This fact is evidenced by all the different religions, plus us nasty atheists.

      3. Therefore, God does not exist.

      You keep repeating: "read His truth in the Bible" There is a problem with your advice:

      Notice how many denominations of Christianity there are (~ 38,000). Each denomination has read His truth in the bible and can show you scripture, that "proves" theirs is the true faith. Many believe only their members will be saved.
      All of the denominations could not be correctly interpreting the bible. Many are contradictory.

      If the Christian god exists, and if He is all knowing and all powerful and all good, why didn't He provide a bible that could not be misinterpreted? That everyone's understanding of His wants would be the same?

      ambiguity – : a word or expression that can be understood in two or more possible ways : an ambiguous word or expression

      1. If god exists, He would want everyone to know His wants, without ambiguity.

      2. The bible god provided, is ambiguous.
      This fact is evidenced by there being 38,000 different denominations of Christianity.

      3. Therefore, the Christian god does not exist.

      Cheers!

      February 26, 2011 at 9:37 am |
  13. JohnQuest

    HeavenSent, and all other believers, if you people are right (I think you are wrong) and there is an all knowing, all powerful all present deity and that deity allows all of these horrific tragedies to befall the innocent and the bad equally, I'm sorry to inform you that he/she/it is not worthy of worship.

    February 25, 2011 at 3:53 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @JohnQuest

      or, god does not exist... or care... Which brings us back to your statement about not being worthy of worship.

      Yep! Glad you went there!

      Cheers!

      February 25, 2011 at 4:04 pm |
    • TheRationale

      I don't see how this is a difficult concept to grasp...

      February 25, 2011 at 4:57 pm |
    • Steve (the real one)

      Hi JohnQuest,

      Sorry you feel that way but God is certainly worthy not only of worship but glory, honor and praise! What happened in your life that you hate God so much?

      February 25, 2011 at 10:19 pm |
    • TheRationale

      @ Steve (the real one)

      Did you even read his post? I must ask twice, did you even read his post? He said he finds it immoral that God has the capacity to stop all this evil yet chooses not to. You say this is worthy of praise? Your head is on backwards!

      Let's put this in any other context but that of God.

      Example: Jim Smith is found guilty of negligent homicide as he watched his infant daughter drown in the tub.
      John: I can't believe people can be so disgusting!
      Steve: I'm sorry you feel that way, but Jim is worthy of praise and glory! What ever happened in your life to make you so angry at Jim?

      Example: God watches an infant drown in a tub.
      John: I can't believe a deity can be so disgusting! He could have saved her!
      Steve: I'm sorry you feel that way, but god is worthy of praise and glory! What ever happened in your life to make you so angry at God?

      Except multiply the latter by like...oh, I don't know, a few billion?

      Theodicy is a non-subject, a non-question. I am thoroughly disgusted, absolutely disgusted by people who make excuses for an omnipotent "all loving" god who lets the world rot knowing full well he could stop it.

      There are two and only two options that exist in this scenario:
      A) An omnipotent and all-loving god does not exist
      B) A god exists that either does not care about the people of this earth or cannot help them even if he did.

      Given the current state of this planet, an omnipotent, all loving God is a logical and moral impossibility. It does not take the moral cognitive skills of a five year old to comprehend this fully and completely. There is a world of information at your fingertips, and you have no justification for espousing that disgusting excuse for a thought you call morality.

      The moronic answers I get back from people every time I say this are pitiful. God has a plan? Well its turning out to be an evil one. His methods are beyond our comprehension? Well then how do you know he isn't evil (much less anything else about him)? Those who suffer now will be rewarded in an afterlife? Complete red herring, still leaves the atrocity completely unjustified.

      I wholeheartedly dare you, or anyone for that matter, to regurgitate another pitiful line of thought in favor of the God you propose.

      -
      JohnQuest, I cannot help but agree with you. I also think my vitriol is more than justified given the premise of the dissent.

      February 26, 2011 at 12:46 am |
    • David Johnson

      You asked: "Well then how do you know he isn't evil (much less anything else about him)?"

      It is said: "By your fruit you will be known."

      Let's look at the god of the Book's "fruit".

      God directly or at His insistence, murdered men, women and children including babies. Is this good? Is this moral?

      God killed every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah and his family. Afterwards, He decides He won't kill everything again, because man's heart is evil from his youth. Is this good? Is this moral?

      God had a man believe he was going to sacrifice his son to Him. Do you know how traumatic that would be for a father and his son?
      If you had the power would you do this? Would you be so insecure? Is this good? Is this moral?

      There was a man who loved God. God made a bet with Satan that even if the man were tortured, his Possessions taken, and his children killed, he would still love God and never curse Him. God won the bet.
      Would you do that? Would you kill a man's children for a bet? Is this good? Is this moral?

      God sent a bear to kill a group of children, because they had teased one of His prophets.
      Did the children deserve to die, because they teased a bald man? Is this good? Is this moral?

      God allowed a man to sacrifice his daughter to Him, for giving the man a victory in battle.
      Is this good? Is this moral?

      God created a place He can send people to be burned for all eternity. Could an all good god do this?
      If a puppy wet on the floor, would you hold it over a burner? Even for a second?

      Jesus had this to say:
      Matthew 7:17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
      Luke 6:43 "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.

      A good god can't do evil things!

      So, god could be evil or he could not exist.

      Cheers!

      February 26, 2011 at 10:36 am |
    • Steve (the real one)

      TheRationale
      @ Steve (the real one)
      Did you even read his post? I must ask twice, did you even read his post? He said he finds it immoral that God has the capacity to stop all this evil yet chooses not to. You say this is worthy of praise? Your head is on backwards!
      ---------
      You have absolutely no, zero knowledge of God. That is why you can picture Him in the light that you do! My head is not on backwards. It just that since you have been long living your life in a backward condition, when you run into someone who has been saved by the grace of God and there are moving forward in Christ, you think THEY are the backward one because it is odd to you! It's all because you know nothing about God, in fact to you He does not exist! Yet you are talking more about God in your unbelief than some Christians do! Now that is odd!

      February 26, 2011 at 12:37 pm |
    • Steve (the real one)

      @TheRationale,
      There are two and only two options that exist in this scenario:
      A) An omnipotent and all-loving god does not exist
      B) A god exists that either does not care about the people of this earth or cannot help them even if he did.
      --------
      You say there are only two options because those 2 do NOT challenge your belief or non-belief system. There is yet another option that you have failed to mention:

      There is a loving God, and I (TheRationale) will never get to know Him because I am too busy trying to make Him Fit into my logical and reasonable reality or because I am too busy trying to explain Him out of existence! Rather than to humble myself and allow the one true God to reveal Himself to me! That option challenges you and that is why your prefer your two options! Let me put it simply, your two options were bred in the very pit of hell. They were designed to keep you from ever knowing the one, true God. Sadly, it is working!

      February 26, 2011 at 12:53 pm |
    • Evolved DNA

      Steve( the real one).."The very pits of hell" scary....more threats.. believe or look out.. If you get bored on a rainy Sunday afternoon , think what an eternity of praising a superior being is going to be like when you finally arrive. Humbling yourself for an eternity... not for me..... i would live , help your fellow human beings, travel the world and see the beauty that evolution and natural forces have done. Waiting inside a death cult is such a downer... all that humbling, praying, fear of demons... break free and enjoy your self.... and yes... you will still be able to understand morality... you will still know what is right and wrong.. the info you have learned that you have to believe in god to understand that is incorrect ...

      February 26, 2011 at 1:39 pm |
    • Steve (the real one)

      Evolved DNA
      Steve( the real one).."The very pits of hell" scary....more threats.. believe or look out..
      -------
      E-DNA, read my post slowly tell me where I threatened anyone. I believe I was referring to an idea that was bred in hell! Your lack of faith, has no bearing on my faith! I will continue to share what believe! Feel free to tune me out or not respond if you like! Just know you will not change my faith!

      February 26, 2011 at 1:47 pm |
    • Evolved DNA

      Steve (the real one) As faith is based on nothing, I would not expect anything to change it...My mind however is open to evidence , and if there was evidence that god existed I would change my mind..

      February 26, 2011 at 3:45 pm |
    • TheRationale

      @ Steve

      First of all, it isn't "my" logic. It's just logic. All you have to say is that I know nothing of your God. Really? I've only commented on that which you have told me about him.

      Short of complaining about the fact that I don't believe in your God, you haven't said anything substantive. You've just complained that I am too blinded by rational thinking to submit my conscience to a being you refuse to and probably cannot explain or defend. How backwards am I? Oh gee, rational thought got us into space, teleported the atom, and cured polio. Rejection of rational thought? That was called the Dark Ages. Please, I don't need your attempts at telling me which of us has our head on backwards.

      Here's a lesson in logic. The burden of proof lies directly on you. Why? Because you say there's a God. You've got the idea, the claim, the proposition. You show it to be true. Until then, I defer you to Russel's Teapot.

      And uh... if you don't believe me...you'll...face the wrath of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and boil for the rest of eternity in spaghetti sauce lava! See how scary that is? Yeah, that's how convincing your "hell" argument is. I suppose Santa will bring me coal, too, if I'm not nice this year...

      February 26, 2011 at 6:00 pm |
    • Steve (the real one)

      TheRationale,

      All you have to do then is live your life! Ii'm not stopping you! Want no to part of God? Don't have a part of God! Its just that simple! All you need to do then is to stop telling Christians their beliefs are silly, right! You live your atheistic life and we will live our Christian lives!

      you said: I don't need your attempts at telling me which of us has our head on backwards.
      -------
      Well it appears you do need my attempts at telling you which of us has our head on backwards. You see, it was for grins and giggles that you felt I needed your attempt, right? Just think of it as me repaying a favor! Just live your life!

      February 26, 2011 at 7:08 pm |
  14. HeavenSent

    If you folks think that only having s$x is the only way to transmit the AIDS virus you are sadly mistaken. Ryan White proved that other ways of transmission were and are possible and that was back in the early 80s.

    February 25, 2011 at 2:41 pm |
  15. David Johnson

    Yo, Believers!

    I just read about this on the CNN web site. I actually found my eyes filling with tears.

    I ask you, in all seriousness, where was god? Christians say their god is always present. Always observing. Am I to believe He sat upon His throne and watched, as these children were tortured?

    He listened to and answered your prayers, to lose 10 pounds, or to get a good parking spot at the mall?

    He is said to be all powerful. All good... I wouldn't expect Him to send an angel, with a fiery sword, to protect these little ones.
    Just to cause a neighbor to overhear the abuse and call the police. Something... Anything...Yet, He did nothing. He gave the children no respite. Not even death.

    God either does not care, or does not exist.

    http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/02/24/oklahoma.abuse.case/index.html?hpt=Sbin

    February 25, 2011 at 1:38 pm |
    • honestanon

      Dave, if there is a god, it's a pretty good bet that he/she/it is not a micro-manager. Ever see the Hubble Ultra-Deep Field pic? Take a good look, try to comprehend the magnitudes involved, then reconsider any 'absolutes' that you might hold with respect to.. well, anything.

      Chances are against anyone, including you, believing they know anything on that scale for certain. Any efforts to personify a concept are futile.

      February 25, 2011 at 2:06 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      David, David, David ... still thinking on that carnal level which will always keep you confused. Try asking God to show you how to read His truth and while you are asking Him for favors, ask Him to open your eyes to see and ears to hear His spiritual teachings.

      February 25, 2011 at 2:46 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @HeavenSent

      You said: "Try asking God to show you how to read His truth and while you are asking Him for favors, ask Him to open your eyes to see and ears to hear His spiritual teachings."

      You seem to have god on speed dial. Explain this to me:

      Christians say their god is Omnibenevolent, Omnipotent, Omniscient.

      1. God is all good
      If true, god should not have wanted the children to suffer.

      2. God is all powerful
      If true, god would have been able to prevent their suffering.

      3. The children suffered terribly.

      Therefore, the Christian god does not care, or He does not exist.

      So, Tell me why it wasn't just suffering for suffering's sake.

      Tell me how the suffering, of these children, taught any lesson to humanity?

      Or, will you tell me that god gave the parents free will. But I ask you, where was the children's free will? Did they choose to be tortured?

      Or, will you declare it a mystery of god? Part of His great plan? Vomit out some more of your "read his truth" silliness?

      Cheers!

      February 25, 2011 at 3:52 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @HeavenSent

      You posted this reply to Magic on another thread. I didn't want you to miss my rebuke.

      You said: "if you research back to the word "unicorn" in the Bible it means a type of oxen or beast of burden that lost one of it's horns."

      As usual you are lame.

      There are many mythological creatures mentioned in the King James bible. Note that the King Jimmy is the official Book of Evangelicals!

      Remember their battle cry: "The bible says it, I believe it, that settles it!"

      Let's look at a few beasties:

      Isaiah 34:7 (King James Version)
      7And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

      Isaiah 13:21 (King James Version)
      21But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.

      Numbers 21:6 (King James Version)
      6And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

      Jeremiah 8:17 (King James Version)
      17For, behold, I will send serpents, co_ckatrices, among you, which will not be charmed, and they shall bite you, saith the LORD.

      Malachi 1:3 (King James Version)
      3And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

      What about that nasty brute the leviathan? Job 41; Isaiah 27:1; Psalm 74:12-14. God wrestles him.

      More recent versions of "the word of God" have changed the mythological creatures mentioned in the King James version, to creatures, such as oxen, etc. The reason is, is that the inclusion of these creatures, greatly weakened the argument that the bible was the inerrant word of god. It read too much like a fairy tale. LOL

      The reason cited for changing these mythological creatures names to oxen etc., was that they were a translation error.

      Fundie Rule of Thumb: If a bible verse furthers the cause, it is to be taken literally. If a bible verse is detrimental to the cause, it is either: taken out of context; is allegorical; refers to another verse somewhere else; is a translation error; means something other than what it actually says; Is a mystery of god or not discernable by humans; or is just magic.

      If you cannot believe in fiery serpents or creatures who are half man and half goat, how can you believe the rest of the silliness:
      God created Adam from a handful of dirt; Talking snakes; trees that bear fruit, that imparts knowledge and eternal life; a global flood, that required a pair of each organism on earth, be stuffed onto a boat; people who lived hundreds of years; a man who was swallowed by a fish, only to be spit up 3 days later, unhurt; a tower god was afraid might reach heaven; a woman who is turned into a pillar of salt; talking donkeys; a zombie messiah; zombie Saints who left their graves and wandered about the town; belief in a circular, flat earth.

      If we cannot believe every word written in the King James is true, then how can we believe any of it is true?

      Fundies do not believe in Christianity because it is true. To them Christianity is true because they believe it.

      Cheers!

      February 25, 2011 at 3:59 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @honestanon

      You said: "Chances are against anyone, including you, believing they know anything on that scale for certain. Any efforts to personify a concept are futile."

      A personal god is not my concept. But, it is the Evangelical concept. A god whose personal interest in worshipers is so great that the deity communicates directly with them and actively intervenes in their lives through miracles.

      What you describe would be what most of the founding fathers believed about god. Deism – God set up the laws of universe and then withdrew. He would be the macro-manager. He performs no miracles. He does not interact with humans.

      Cheers!

      February 25, 2011 at 4:36 pm |
    • Magic

      David Johnson,

      Thanks for handling the unicorn response. You are a trouper. I just went, "**sigh**" at HS's obtuseness on that one.

      February 25, 2011 at 5:49 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      David, not only do you and the other non-noes not read the Bible, and if you do, you do so while stuck in your carnal mindsets ... you also don't know to check back to the Hebrew, Greek or any other research materials to ensure you know how their words were translated.

      Any time any Christian proves their point you will always scoff because you are .... don't want to get put into the holding pattern so figure out the missing words.

      February 25, 2011 at 6:38 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @HeavenSent

      You said: "Any time any Christian proves their point you will always scoff because you are .... don't want to get put into the holding pattern so figure out the missing words."

      Any person who has not yet imbibed the Kool Aid (my true target audience), can read your drivel and then read my rebuke of your silliness. I bet they would not feel you have "proved your point". Rather, that you have confirmed the King James is not inspired by a perfect god. For if it were, a translation error could not occur.

      Cheers!

      February 26, 2011 at 8:50 am |
    • Magic

      David Johnson,

      Perhaps you will not get back to the "Slain Americans/Bibles" blog, but this is just too good for you to miss:

      http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/22/slain-americans-were-delivering-bibles/comment-page-1/#comment-269075

      To you from mykids at: February 25, 2011 at 10:00 pm

      Your sides will ache...

      February 26, 2011 at 5:08 pm |
  16. Steve the real one

    Some atheists have stated Christians need to "evolve" and "progress". When one woman does (albeit it took HIV for her to do so), we still hear the same old rants from you. So what how she got to see the other side. She now does! Not even one word to say "finally, sombody gets it". Just the same old typical sad remarks. It appears other than hating everything Godly, you don't even know what you want! Care to diagree in an adult manner?

    February 25, 2011 at 12:50 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @Steve the real one

      I was both sad that she was infected with HIV and glad that she is finding compassion for her fellow sick humans.

      I have a great deal of compassion for my fellow humans. I have no use for the supernatural views of reality.

      Cheers!

      February 25, 2011 at 1:36 pm |
    • Steve the real one

      David, I am actually happy to hear that! Well, except for your last sentence, of course! Then you had to mess up my pleasant regard towards you with your post at 1:38. At least you are consistent. Consistently wrong but consistent none the less. Have a good weekend

      February 25, 2011 at 1:52 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Steve the real one, you do have the patience of a saint.

      God Bless you.

      February 25, 2011 at 3:13 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Well Steve, you and I know our arms don't drag to the floor stooping over as we walk (LOL).

      Remember who you are conversing with ... some sinners blinded by sin and others Ke-n-ites.

      Jesus Christ was "des-pised and re-jected of men", "He hath borne our griefs", "He was wounded for our trans-gres-sions", "and with His stripes we are healed", "all we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way", "the LORD hath laid on Him the in-i-quit-y of us all", "He was op-press-ed, and He was af-flict-ed, yet He opened not His mouth", "He was cut off out of the land of the liv-ing: for the trans-gres-sion of my people was He stric-k-en", "and He made his grave with the wic-k-ed", "and with the rich in His death", "yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief: when thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin", "by His know-ledge shall my right-e-ous serv-ant just-ify many; for He shall bear their in-i-q-uities", "He bare the sin of many, and made inter-ces-sion for the trans-gres-sors." All He wants us to do is to believe, is that so much to ask?

      Spring, 29 AD, on the Pas-s-over, Jesus Christ of Na-z-areth, the Son of the liv-ing God, was cruc-i-fied on the cross of Pa-gan R-ome; He was betrayed by a friend, and had a false witness brought against Him by the high-est reli-g-ious body of the time in Jer-u-s-alem (the San-he-drin) by ungodly play actors who were not of true Isr-a-el nor of true Ju-dah but rather were the sons of Cain (Ken-ites) the first murderer who called them-selves Je-ws but were not of Ju-dah.

      John 8:42-44
      42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
      43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
      44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speak-eth a lie, he speak-eth of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

      These Ken-ites (sons of Cain, the first murd-e-rer) will once again play a role in pro-p-hecy in our life-time:

      Revelation 3:9
      9 Behold, I will make them of the syn-a-g-ogue of Sa-tan, which say they are Jew-s, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

      Those who wish to get stroked and blinded by sa-tan's lies and work along with him are the ones who tell us that the Bible is just a fairy tale. The Bible speaks of those who deny Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross for our salvation.

      February 25, 2011 at 6:30 pm |
    • Steve (the real one)

      HeavenSent
      Steve the real one, you do have the patience of a saint. God Bless you.
      -------
      HeavenSent. God bless you too! Sometimes (and honestly) I do get a bit irritated but that is my fault for continuing in circular arguments! Lets keep fighting the good fight! Souls are precious and are worth the battle! Pray for me and I will most certainly pray for you! Despite popular opinion, prayer DOES work! Peace to you!

      February 25, 2011 at 10:16 pm |
  17. Doc Vestibule

    Schadenfreude is rampant in most religions!
    AIDS is God's punishment for being g.ay is a popular example, not to mention all the smug rhetoric from believers about how they'll be laughing in heaven while the heathens burn in h.ell.

    Around a year ago, an Iran.ian cleric said that the earthquake in Hait.i was God's way of punishing humanity for women's "immodesty".
    Around 200,000 immodest women from around the world went to.pless at the same time and guess what? Se.ismic activity over that 24 hour period was normal. Below normal, in fact.

    There is no being raining fire and brimstone on the unrighteous, only the deluded faithful drawing tenuous lines between correlation and causation.

    February 25, 2011 at 12:39 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @Doc Vestibule

      "schadenfreude" you say... You are giving me an education. I had to look that one up.

      schadenfreude – enjoyment obtained from the troubles of others

      Yes. It all makes sense now.

      Thank you!

      February 25, 2011 at 1:51 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Doc Vestibule, the facts that more folks in the male gay community got AIDS is due to @n@l intercourse which causes more friction during the s$x act, allowing the spreading of the virus if the person comes in contact with an infected partner. The AIDS virus can infect any one (male, female, you or old) at any time and it is not only spread by having s$x with an infected partner. A person can get infected when sharing needles with an infected person, blood transfusions, medical equipment not properly sterilized after it was used on an infected person or came in contact with the virus, are just some of the other ways of transmission.

      February 25, 2011 at 3:06 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Typed too fast ... that was young or old. Not you or old.

      February 25, 2011 at 3:07 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @HeavenSent
      I'm not debating the transmission vectors for HIV.
      The point I'm making is that many bigoted religionsists have celebrated HIV as God's way of taking care of the "gay problem".

      February 25, 2011 at 3:49 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Doc Vestibule, as usual, the rumor was probably started by a non-believer disguising him/her self as a Christian like they do with every issue happening in the world today. They follow the ways of satan who is the first liar and murderer.

      February 25, 2011 at 6:24 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      @HeavenSent

      Do you consider Billy Graham a non-believer or someone under satan's influence? Yes or no, you should search for his statements on HIV. Even thought he later confesse dhe was wrong, he initially said it was your god's judgement. Why blame an atheist when it's clear that one of your tribal elders is at least partially responsible?

      PS: Not only are there no gods, satan is imaginary too, along with pink unicorns, the easter bunny, santa claus and jesus christ, although I should apologize to the concepts of pink unicorns, the easter bunny and santa claus for including them in a list with satan and jc 'cause as far as I know their followers have done no harm, obviously unlike christians.

      February 26, 2011 at 1:01 am |
    • HeavenSent

      HotAirAce, Billy Graham preaches his own gospel. He doesn't preach Jesus truth to the masses, he strokes the masses what they want to hear, not what they need to hear. Therefore, he's a liar follow satan.

      What part of Truth (Jesus) versus Lies (satan) don't you get?

      Also, what part of Christianity is a wisdom with it's own language that you do not understand?

      February 26, 2011 at 3:42 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      @HeavenScent

      Darn – I really don't want to be in the same category as Billy Graham, so will leave it to others to defend him.

      With respect to the bible and the jesus myth, I confess that I "get" none of it! After years of indoctrination (solely because I was born into a family of believers at a time when resistance to religion was futile) and after careful consideration, I determined that all religion is bullish!t. I do not regret this decision and as time goes on, and the more I read drivel from the likes of you, I am even more confident that I am the right track. Thanks for the entertainment!

      February 26, 2011 at 5:37 pm |
  18. Reality

    Using Guttmacher Inst-itute data on birth control method failure rates, one is able to calculate the number of unplanned pregnancies resulting from the current use of male condoms. It is an horrific number of 1.2 million/yr. Even perfect use of would result in 138,000 unplanned pregnancies. Multiply that by a large factor to see why condoms don't work in Africa or any place else to stop the spread of HIV.

    Conclusion: currently, a perfect barrier system for preventing HIV does not exist. Time to develop one. In the meantime, mono-masturbation or mutual masturbation for heterose-xuals are highly recommended for those at risk. Abstinence is the another best-solution but obviously the se-x drive typically vitiates this option although being biological would it not be able to develop a drug to temporarily eliminate said drive?

    February 25, 2011 at 12:09 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Reality, there are 2 main reasons we don't have the cure for AIDS. One being that those trying to discover the cure are sabotaged by others in their perspective fields ... aka each wants credit for finding the cure. Oh, the ways of man, never ceases to amaze anyone.

      Second reason why there isn't a cure for AIDS is that no one working in the research field has ever tried to ask God for His help so He'd guide them.

      Amen.

      February 25, 2011 at 2:54 pm |
    • Mark

      What a ridiculous post, and dangerous. Prevention works, condoms work, abstinence has always failed and human nature, including its physical needs always have and always will be with us.

      February 25, 2011 at 2:58 pm |
    • Reality

      o The numbers, the calculations and two "bottom liners":

      "Facts on Co-ntraceptive Use

      http://www.gu-ttmacher.org/pubs/fb_contr_use.html

      January 2008

      WHO NEEDS CONTRACEPTIVES?

      • 62 million U.S. women (and men?) are in their childbearing years (15–44).[1]
      • 43 million women (and men) of reproductive age, or 7 in 10, are se-xually active and do not want to become pregnant, but could become pregnant if they or their partners fail to use a contraceptive method.[2]
      • The typical U.S. woman (man?) wants only 2 children. To achieve this goal, she (he?) must use contraceptives for roughly 3 decades.[3]

      WHO USES CONTRACEPTIVES?

      • Virtually all women (98%) aged 15–44 who have ever had inte-rcourse have used at least one contraceptive method.[2](and men?)
      • Overall, 62% of the 62 million women aged 15–44 are currently using one.[2] (and men)
      • 31% of the 62 million women (and men?) do not need a method because they are infertile; are pregnant, postpartum or trying to become pregnant; have never had inter-course; or are not s-exually active.[2]
      • Thus, only 7% of women aged 15–44 are at risk of unwanted pregnancy but are not using contraceptives.[2] (and men?)
      • Among the 42 million fertile, s-exually active women who do not want to become pregnant, 89% are practicing contraception.[2] (and men?)

      WHICH METHODS DO WOMEN (men?) USE?

      • 64% of reproductive-age women who practice contraception use reversible methods, such as oral contraceptives or condoms. The remaining women rely on female or male sterilization.[2]

      FIRST-YEAR CONTRACEPTIVE FAILURE RATES

      Percentage of women (men?) experiencing an unplanned pregnancy (a few examples)
      Metho Typical
      Pill (combined) 8.7
      Tubal sterilization 0.7
      Male condom 17.4
      Vas-ectomy 0.2
      Periodic abstinence 25.3
      Calendar 9.0
      Ovulation Method 3.0
      Sympto-thermal 2.0
      Post-ovulation 1.0
      No method 85.0"

      (Abstinence) 0
      (Mas-turbation) 0

      More facts about co-ntraceptives from
      guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_contr_use.html

      "CON-TRACEPTIVE METHOD CHOICE

      Con-traceptive method use among U.S. women who practice con-traception, 2002
      Method No. of users (in 000s) % of users
      Pill 11,661 30.6
      Male condom 6,841 18.0 "
      i.e.
      The pill fails to protect women 8.7% during the first year of use (from the same reference previously shown).
      i.e.
      0.087 (failure rate)
      x 62 million (# child bearing women)
      x 0.62 ( % of these women using contraception )
      x 0.306 ( % of these using the pill) =
      1,020,000 unplanned pregnancies during the first year of pill use.

      For male condoms (failure rate of 17.4 and 18% use level):
      1,200,000 unplanned pregnancies during the first year of male condom use.
      The Guttmacher Insti-tute (same reference) notes also that the perfect use of the pill should result in a 0.3% failure rate
      (35,000 unplanned pregnancies) and for the male condom, a 2% failure rate (138,000 unplanned pregnancies).

      o Bottom Line #1: The failures of the widely used birth "control" methods i.e. the pill and male condom have led to the large rate of abortions ( one million/yr) and S-TDs (19 million/yr) in the USA. Men and women must either recognize their responsibilities by using the pill or condoms properly and/or use other methods in order to reduce the epidemics of abortion and S-TDs.

      Bottom line #2-

      Currently, a perfect barrier system does not exist. Time to develop one! In the meantime, mono-ma-sturbation or mutual ma-sturbation are highly recommended for hete-rose-xuals who need a contraceptive. Abstinence is another best-solution but obviously the se-x drive typically vitiates this option although being biological would it not be able to develop a drug to temporarily eliminate said drive?

      February 25, 2011 at 3:25 pm |
    • Magic

      HeavenSent,

      "Second reason why there isn't a cure for AIDS is that no one working in the research field has ever tried to ask God for His help so He'd guide them."

      What the...?

      So, you know *every* researcher, and have evidence that not one of them ever prayed for help?

      I declare, you lose more and more important brain cells each day.

      February 25, 2011 at 5:42 pm |
    • Evolved DNA

      Heavensent.. get real.... asking god for a cure.. maybe ask him not to make it in the first place. God is having one he-ll of time trying to stop earthquakes, wars , the religious killing each other, prayers for winning races... give him a break..
      I know.. lets use our brains and figure these things out for ourselves.

      February 25, 2011 at 6:08 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      How would any of you non-noes know who prayed to God when doing research and then made a break through?

      What, do you think everyone in the medical field is a non-no like you? Keep dreaming.

      Don't write me back with your babble of what you think you know.

      February 25, 2011 at 6:20 pm |
    • Magic

      HeavenSent,

      Listen, Toots, this is your babble:

      "Second reason why there isn't a cure for AIDS is that no one working in the research field has ever tried to ask God for His help so He'd guide them."

      I merely asked for your evidence that no researcher has ever prayed.

      February 25, 2011 at 6:48 pm |
    • evolvedDNA

      Heavensent.. dreaming is your dept I afraid...we have to deal with reality... we are working on on the cure for your mans invention..nice going.

      February 25, 2011 at 8:33 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Thanks for all your negative responses. You've just proved my point why there is no such thing as fair play in the work environment for the last 30+ years. Negative mindsets about every one and any one that isn't conditioned with the same mindset. Just stepping on and over a person you enjoyed looking down your noses at. You wonder why breakthroughs and eventual cures haven't been found? Look in the mirror. God's looking down at all the self proclaimed, self centered, self absorbed chimps, shaking His head knowing you're refusing to communicate with each other, refusing to hear, refusing to see, closing your mind to anyone or everyone's ideas or directions because it doesn't match your own.

      I can tell that evolution doesn't teach morals, ethics, fair play, common decency, patience, honesty or any of God's other righteous teachings when dealing with community. You may have been taught the basics by your parents, teachers, relatives, friends, but you only learned the basics. You never cared to learn the entire wisdom of His teachings. Oh, yes, I forgot. You care less about God.

      Amen.

      February 26, 2011 at 11:21 am |
    • Evolved DNA

      Heavensent..Are you kidding you call us self absorbed and self centered.. not like we have personal god sent to look after us and universe built for us to play in or anything right. ..Humans have to work on cure despite the interference of religion.. lets see oh yes.. stem cell research.. You are looking down on the human race with the superiority of your deity you worship..
      If we could direct all the money we waste on religious dogma, tax breaks, buildings, visits by popes, priests, Imams, religious schools..to name but a few .and work together as human beings for the good of each other and the planet, rather than the glorification of some supernatural beings.. we would have found a cure for most of the diseases that exist still today. Religion is, and will always be the, the obstacle to peace, understanding and progress.

      February 26, 2011 at 12:35 pm |
    • Evolved DNA

      Heaven sent. do you even know what morality is? I know what right and wrong is all about ..you just want it to come from a supernatural being, an alien or something...You appear to base morality on one idea.. that if you don't care , or believe in your god you are bad.. that's it..... very closed minded and a rather childish approach. Did the catholic priests who ra-ped the young boys believe in god? Do the taliban who believe in god feel anything when maiming and killing people of blowing up innocents..look at how most religions treat women.. as second class citizens..I would have thought that you Jesus could have done a little more for their rights while here.. but no..his most significant trick was to get himself killed.. oh dear..
      Don't preach to me about morality..you have a long way to go to reach the level you espouse. You are also correct.. i have little care at all for your god.. .

      February 26, 2011 at 12:53 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Reality, first, you haven't a clue about what Jesus teaches. You're so focused on a mystical God being that by the way, you can never fathom because you don't comprehend what anyone is writing about what they know of His teachings.

      Second, the reason why folks aren't making breakthroughs on their research is because they are sabotaging each others efforts. No one is working with each other just against each other. Therefore, there is no sharing ideas, only stealing them to claim as your own. There is no direction where to go because you can't agree on to take a direction. It's a mishmash because the last few generations is the me, myself and I generations that were never taught Jesus wisdom how to play nice with others in society and share with each other. Simply, said, you have no breaking mechanisms to slow down or stop and look both ways to see what else in front of you.

      February 26, 2011 at 1:27 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Evolved DNA, you can tell me all your other names for His wisdom He owns it and everyone else claims it as their own instructions. Right from wrong is His righteous and unrighteous teachings. As far as knowing everything from right and wrong, again, you know only the basics because you never studied His detailed teachings and the multiple results that will or can occur. Why? Because church discusses them when you attend any/all their services. It's a perpetual learning of His wisdom, week after week, year after year, service after service through a person's life. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh, but, nooooooooooooooooooooo, your so focused on not wanting to believe in God that you miss out in learning any thing His wisdom has to offer to benefit you and your loved ones.

      Hey, if I had to come off as stubborn as you to get you to slow down and pay attention. So be it. Nothing else worked to get you folks into a dialogue. Your perceptions of His teachings are so off the wall, I don't even know where to begin to state how wrong you are. I can just imagine what people 2000 years in the future will think ideas and languages used to describe what was happening in our generation. Death has many concepts in the Bible. Scriptures can be referring to a physical death, a spiritual death, the stopping of or conducting an action (aka died). Same as stoning. It was the slang used back then as well as actions. (e.g. I could kill him or her for saying that does not mean the person physically kills another, they are just expressing anger or frustration). As far as raping or killing some one. Rapist and murderers are not solo to the religious community. There are many rapists and murderers in our prison system and abroad that have never practiced His teachings, lived and worked every where and any where in society. As for women in the Bible. They have the most beautiful, difficult and rewarding role in His teachings. That of loving their parents, grandparents, husbands, not to mention siblings and other family and friends. When the couple has children she loves, cares for them as she continues their teachings of His wisdom throughout their lives as well as ensuring her husband and other males in society continue their focus on Jesus and His teachings.

      February 26, 2011 at 2:06 pm |
    • Something

      HeavenSent,

      "As far as knowing everything from right and wrong, again, you know only the basics because you never studied His detailed teachings and the multiple results that will or can occur. Why? Because church discusses them when you attend any/all their services. It's a perpetual learning of His wisdom, week after week, year after year, service after service through a person's life."

      First of all, you are very presumptuous to claim to know what EvolvedDNA, or anyone else has studied.

      Second, I was a believer for close to 50 years.... week after week, year after year, hearing and studying that stuff. Is that not 'long' to you? I gradually became a non-believer for a lot of reasons... mainly because I discovered that Christianity's teachings of supernatural beings and places has no basis in fact.

      February 26, 2011 at 2:18 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      So something, what you are telling me is ... if you love and respected a professor's teachings ... then applied it to your thought process ... they became beliefs that you hold near and dear to your heart and use them when thinking or acting on situations in life ... but, because the professors dies, you no longer will apply what was taught to you? Therefore, if you no longer use what was taught, future students are also forbidden to learn what the professor taught ... all because the professor died?

      February 26, 2011 at 3:17 pm |
    • Evolved DNA

      Heavensent. Right from wrong is basic...you are making things up now to try to add the mystery into your religion.... like "yes but our right from wrong is better!." with your thought pattern.. only people about 80 years old or so will really know the difference.. as those much younger are still going through the indoctrination. Also, what is this slang in the bible then.. again this is made up to allow the more unsavory parts,,, stoning etc to be sanitized into modern thinking. And, for your information.. I have been to church many times and was even confirmed. .Morality is not god dependent.,, any more than saying the make of car you drive allows more payers to be answered. You have stated this your self.. those in jail are a total cross section of society, some Christian, Buddhists , atheists, Muslims, JW, and Mormons...we are all the same, think of your self as a human first.. then what ever you want after that.

      February 26, 2011 at 4:18 pm |
  19. CW

    @ The Rationale,

    Want to call it Karma ehh? I guess is someone came and mur-'dered your whole family you would call that Karma too? The simple fact is that this now pastor was preaching a message where she didn't have all the facts. We are all sinners and all make mistakes but God will forgive us if we will humble ourselves and listen and live by his good book. Its sad that she got this virus to live with but she is now using it for her's and God's good. She is preaching the message of love and support to those around her who have to live with this virus. Notice she didn't say she got it through partying and having s-'ex with everyone. She is being a blessing to others....would you call that good karma?

    February 25, 2011 at 10:57 am |
    • Mangonel

      You didn't notice that she didn't really say WHERE she picked up the virus, did you? Well, open your bible-crusted eyes, CW.
      What she got was poetic justice, which is rare enough.
      She acted like a vicious bltch using her religion as motivation and weapon, and now she is just being stupid for sticking with her religion after seeing how wrong it was – AFTER seeing how wrong it was she returned to her vomit like a dog.
      That's religion for you. Even after being proved wrong she returned to what is wrong as if it were okay.
      For all you know she might be abusing those children and saying it's "god's work".
      Fact is, you are just another two-faced hypocrite who has been brainwashed to ignore every real fact while cleaving to the lies you refuse to test or question.

      February 25, 2011 at 11:08 am |
    • TheRationale

      Look at what happened to her! She was once the preacher of not love, but the very ideas that would later cost her her job and her house. She perpetuated the sickness by telling people they'd get cured by prayer and penance and other such nonsense.

      But now that the tables are turned, she's realized what a piece of filth she was. I'd call that justice, sir. I'd also call it karma and I'd call it Hollywood entertainment because ironic punishment for the villain is the best ending to so many movies.

      Of course now she cares for people. Now she takes on the better role of helping people instead of hurting them. It took a shot of reality to blast at least some of the crazier pieces of Christianity out of her head. Isn't it funny how God always seems to agree with those who believe in him no matter how often they change their minds? I suppose a decade ago he really meant AIDS as a punishment, but now that this sorry individual has seen the light, he's happy she's helping people. What nonsense.

      Oh yeah, and I don't have to cite medical research from Duke or the Mayo clinic – I can cite this article: Prayer doesn't work. Welcome to reality, here's a physics book and a monkey wrench, enjoy your flight.

      February 25, 2011 at 12:08 pm |
    • Colin

      So...you're saying God gave this woman AIDS. Nice guy.

      The woman is a hypocrite, only changing her ways when she became afflicted. Do you doubt that she'd still be spreading her messages of hate if she hadn't gotten the disease? Of course she's preaching love and understanding now, otherwise she'd be alone like all those she ostracized before.

      February 25, 2011 at 12:20 pm |
    • David Johnson

      @CW

      I'm curious. Do you believe god created the HIV virus? If not, who or what did?

      Curious in Arizona

      February 25, 2011 at 12:39 pm |
    • Michael

      Your bible says that you reap what you sow. Some people call that karma.

      February 25, 2011 at 6:22 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Doc Vestibule, are you referring to unrighteous actions of those that hop from one bed to another and then to another while never taking responsibility for one's actions as they spread the AIDS virus to all those they have/had contact with ... viewed as bigoted by Christians towards gay folks? Ghee, I thought Christians knew that unrighteous action belongs to any one that conducts it.

      February 26, 2011 at 3:30 pm |
  20. TheRationale

    Taste Karma

    February 25, 2011 at 10:46 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.