By Kim Hutcherson and Dan Gilgoff, CNN
(CNN) – Harold Camping is sticking to his apocalyptic guns.
In his first radio broadcast since his doomsday prediction failed to pan out in a spectacularly public fashion, the California preacher insisted his was an error of interpretation, not fact.
What's more, he has another calculation for the day the world will end - October 21, 2011.
Camping had kept a low-profile since Saturday, the day he had forecast for the return of Jesus Christ to Earth. He and his devoted followers have been warning for months that on May 21, a select 2% to 3% of the world's population would be taken to heaven. Those left behind would face months of tribulation before perishing in the Earth's destruction, which Camping said would happen on October 21.
This is the basis for his new prediction, which Camping claims is not new at all. He told listeners on his Family Radio broadcast Monday that God is "loving and merciful," and had decided not to punish the humanity with five months of destruction.
But he maintains that the end of the world is still coming.
"We've always said October 21 was the day," Camping said during his show. "The only thing we didn't understand was the spirituality of May 21. We're seeing this as a spiritual thing happening rather than a physical thing happening. The timing, the structure, the proofs, none of that has changed at all."
However, Camping said his group would not be mounting another advertising push. In the months leading up to May 21, Family Radio billboards popped up across the country, warning that the end was near.
"We're not going to be passing out tracts," Camping said. "We're not going to put up any more billboards. We're not going to be advertising in any way. The world has been warned. We did our little share and the media picked it up. But now the world has been told, it's under judgment."
Fred Store, who led one of four RV caravans that toured the country in recent months to spread the word about judgment day, said he and other followers heard Camping's broadcast "and we were quite happy - it will be interesting to see what the next couple of months will bring."
"It appears as though this whole [rapture] thing happened in a spiritual, rather than a physical way," said Store, 66. The retired electrician said that he and the other nine members of his five-RV caravan were still at an RV park where they waited for the rapture to arrive on Saturday.
He said the park was within 100 miles of Boston, Massachusetts, but didn't want to disclose the specific location. He said the caravan was waiting for word from Camping's ministry, Family Radio, about arranging the return of the vehicles to the broadcaster's Oakland, California, headquarters.
Store said he and the others in his caravan were not disappointed that the dramatic events associated with the rapture had not come to pass.
"We think that judgment day did happen," he said. "It didn’t result in an earthquake, and there were a number of things that weren't exactly the way we said they would be, but we were only reading from the Bible. We’ve been humbled by the whole experience."
Camping founded Family Radio, a nonprofit Christian radio network with about 65 stations across the country, in 1958. It received $80 million in contributions between 2005 and 2009.
He first inaccurately predicted the world would end in 1994. Despite his poor track record, he has gathered many followers. Some gave up their homes, entire life savings and jobs because they believed the world was ending.
Reporters who were allowed to ask questions during the broadcast Monday pressed Camping on this issue, but he would not admit that he bore any blame for his followers' predicaments.
"I don't have any responsibility," Camping said. "I'm only teaching the Bible. I'm telling ... this is what the Bible says. I don't have spiritual rule over anybody ... except my wife as the head of the household."
Experts in apocalyptic movements said that reinterpretations like Camping's are not uncommon in the wake of failed doomsday predictions.
“Historically, failed prophecies tend to result in disillusionment, with members deserting the group, or, more typically, a faith-saving (and face-saving) statement to the effect that while divine revelation remains infallible, human calculation is not,” said Lorenzo DiTommaso, author of the forthcoming book “The Architecture of Apocalypticism” and an associate professor of religion at Concordia University in Montréal, Canada.
“In short: The math was off, and it’s back to the drawing board,” he said. “If the logic seems a bit self-serving, recall that in the apocalyptic mindset, faith precedes theory, and theory informs the evidence."
–CNN's Jessica Ravitz contributed to this report.
"A select 2 – 3%"...How many young children are in the world? I have very serious doubts that any adults have lived their lives in grace. You can lie to us, maybe even to yourself (doubtful), but not to God.
this is how religion becomes dangerous, this bozo is out there making predictions that are based on NOTHING and a group of idiots think he is right. This is why i never want to see a guy like huckaby anywhere near the white house!
He's misguided, but God can still use Camping's misguidings to propel conversations about the time in which we are living, right? The converations about God are happening all over the place.
No, Kingdomwork, hi is doing harm to Christianity. No where in the Scriptures is found that the false doctrines spread about by false teachers is doing good for anyone! In fact it is found right the contrary. And the Holy Spirit testifies to this.... Because of such is the Name of God being blasphemed!
And we know that ALL things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
As a Christian, I can use Camping's false predictions to talk about the Kingdom of God...
Sure you can use this as a starting the conversation, but I would not be so comfortable to apply the Scripture you used so loosely. God sees things differently! Read writings of Paul, Peter, Jude and others, and see what they had to say about the false teachers!They DID NOT define them as "poor misguided souls". That's the fallacy of today's watered down Christianity. It is getting to the point that they are accepting all kinds of false teachings, and sinful behavior, fearing to stand firm against them, but not fearing God to compromise His Word! I'll give you my own a prediction, of which you can be sure of, and which is already evident in some groups, but will be more as the time goes on....:
The Church, especialy here in America, will in near future do these following things:
* deny existence of Hell and eternal judgment
* accept hom-ose-xual behavior, and embrace those who practice it WITHOUT them repenting of it
* accept practices of other religions, and those who practice them, as the token of "acceptance of diver-sity", calling it a good thing, and despising those believers who don't.
* The church will begin to deny the writings of Paul more and more. If they can do that, then they can make the rest of the Scriptures say what THEY WANT hem to say.
But all those things are only the evidence that we are at the times of great falling away which Paul, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit spoke about, that would preceed the comming of that Man of sin, which is the AntiChrist, at the end of the age, before the comming of the Lord.
There is no excuse for this man who led people by his false teachings. He knew the Scriptures. But as so many are today, they, on their own, make up God and His Word out of their own immaginations. And this is nothing to be watered down, by calling it a mistake! God doesn't!
P.S. There is one more thing that marks the great falling away of the Church today tha I did not include:
* They will DENY the literal comming of Jesus Christ, as the Word of God declares it, by spiritualizing it!
There is a every kind of deception of satan , of every shade and color (spiritually speaking). To the Evangelicals he has sold a lie of "early exit" by a "secret Rapture"... To the mainstream protestants, he has sold the lie of watered down meanings of the Scriptures.... To Catholics , the lie of supreme authority of pope, idolatry of worshiping statues, saints, and replacing the Holy Spirit by "Mary" , teachin g taht she is the one who will lead us to Christ, also teaaching tha she was born without sin........ And to the "Kingdom" people he sold the lie telling them that THEY are the ones who will usher the Kingdom of God...
There is a great danger lurking in all those teachings, and only the Lord by His Spirit can reveal the depth of error, and severity of danger of those teachings............ But we have to be conditioned to hear His voice, and that's by HUMBlLING ourselves before Him, and seeking Him with PURE hearts!
Any impurity brings potential deception, because satan is more then willing to attach himself through them, and he can do that if he finds something in us to attach himself too!
This is the warning God gives to all of His people!
@KingdomWork and @Prism1234
Personally, I agree with both of you on some points. I think that Harold Camping has done a lot to harm Christianity. Many will look at him and think that this is what most Christians believe, and when he was proven as a false teacher, it sheds a bad light on Christians. This could cause some to avoid Christianity, and others to lose their faith. For this, I have no doubt that Camping will be held responsible. Teachers and pastors are held to a higher standard.
At the same time, I do believe also that God can take what has been bad, and manage to use it for good. The events certainly have gotten many people talking, and I wouldn't be surprised if there have been some that have searched for the truth, spurred on by Camping's predictions, who have found God.
Also, I would like to mention that I believe in both the rapture of the church AND the second coming of Christ, as I believe these are two seperate, but both Biblical events. I outlined my reason for my belief that there will be a rapture prior to the tribulation in another post on this page.
There is no doubt that there WILL BE Rapture or catching up of the people of God....
Anyone who denies it does not believe the Scriptures. But it is on the end of the age, and it is not a separate event from the Second comming of Christ.
There are many Scriptures , when taken in the context that spell this out clearly. But here are two of them....One of them is found in 2 Thessalonians 2 when Paul speaks to the CHURCH, saying that those things ( the resurection of the dead and our catching away) will not happen until certain things happen..
Also, it is NOT the Spirit of God "through believers" that restrains the Man of lawlessness from comming, as many teachers are accustomed to teach.. If this was so, why is such lawlessness in the earth now?
But it is the Spirit of God who restrains him from coming BEFORE HIS APPOINTED TIME, and He was restraining him through times of history, as we understand that Satan attempted to come embodied as "That Man" many times, even in our recent history through man named Hitler, who was his bond-servant...
And then when the Scriptures say in 1 Corinthians 15 "Behold, I tell you the mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET... for the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed ..." The mystery is NOT what many teach, referring the mystery of secret rapture, but the mystery itself is the transformation of corruptible into incorruptible, which no man has ever experienced and human mind can not grasp...
We must not fall into speculations, but rightly divide the word of truth, with the Lord interpreting His Word by His Spirit. But so many are inclined to do this, by their own spiritualizing of the Word, which is by the fleshly wisdom, and not of God. But it looks that so much of the Church is going that way, giving the oportunity to satan to decieve those who follow their leaders.
"There is a every kind of deception of satan , of every shade and color (spiritually speaking). To the Evangelicals he has sold a lie of "early exit" by a "secret Rapture"... To the mainstream protestants, he has sold the lie of watered down meanings of the Scriptures.... To Catholics , the lie of supreme authority of pope, idolatry of worshiping statues, saints, and replacing the Holy Spirit by "Mary" , teachin g taht she is the one who will lead us to Christ, also teaaching tha she was born without sin........ And to the "Kingdom" people he sold the lie telling them that THEY are the ones who will usher the Kingdom of God..."
So, everyone is "of Satan", except you, right? You insufferable twit.
Let me first say that I believe that the belief in the timing of the rapture does not have an effect on one's salvation. My faith in God does not rest on belief that God will rapture me away from the earth prior to the tribulation. My faith in God rests on my belief and trust that Jesus died on the cross for my sins, and that if I ask his forgiveness, repenting of my sins, and follow him, that I am saved. My belief that the rapture occurs prior to the tribulation is secondary. The Bible does not clearly state the rapture will indeed take place before the tribulation or after. And I believe that there is a chance that I could be incorrect in my line of thinking. If that is the case, and I am still alive at the time of tribulation, I have faith that God will provide for me in whatever way he sees fit, and that if I should perish during the tribulation, that I will be in heaven with Him awaiting for the time He does return to earth. That said, I don't believe there is anything wrong with having a discussion about some of the other doctrines in the Bible.
One thing you mentioned is the last trumpet. I am assuming you are refferring to the last trumpet judgement? If I am incorrect in that assumption, please clarify. Operating for the time being on that asumption, the last trumpet judgement does not occur at the end of the age. There are seven more judgements in revelation, the bowl judgements. So the rapture could not take place at both the end of the age and at the last trumpet judgement, as they are not at the same time.
I agree with you that the mystery spoken of when talking about being caught up in the twinkling of an eye is the mystery of being made incorruptible. I do believe that it is that change the "mystery" is referring to. That does not nullify the idea of a rapture prior to teh tribulation though. That verse supports neither the argument that the rapture is prior to the tribulation or after it, only that there will be one.
Also, what are you basing your belief on that Hitler was the anti-Christ (it sounds as if that is what you are saying, again, please clarify if I am misunderstanding). There is no doubt that Hitler was an anti-Christ, but he could not have been the anti-Christ spoken of in Revelation. The book of Revelation makes it very clear that the anti-Christ at the end of days will make a peace offering with Israel for seven years, and that halfway through that seven years, he will break the peace agreement by desecrating the Jewish temple. Hitler could not have been this man as he signed no peace treaty with Israel, and there was and still is no Jewish temple.
Also, there is lawlessness in the world not because the anti-christ is here or not here, or that it is his time or not yet his time. There is lawlessness because man is fallen. Apart from God, man ultimately shows his desire for wickedness and lawlessness, even if he believes that he is being righteous and lawful. Satan and his demons still also have dominion over this world. They influence men to be lawless and wicked. There is no need for an anti-christ for that. In case you did not see my other post with my reasoning behind believing that the rapture will take place before the tribulation, please look elsewhere on this page in another comment thread, where I explain why I believe what I believe. I would also like to add to that that there have even been actual raptures of people from earth to heaven, namely, Elisha (or is it Elijah? I'm having trouble remember at the moment).
I would like to briefly state also that I agree with several other points you have made. I think that in many ways, many Christian churches are on the decline, supporting things and ideas that the Bible calls a sin. The Bible calls ho-mo-s-ex-ual-ity a sin, so for churches to embrace it and say it isn't, would be condoning sin. The belief that Mary can get you to God and that we should pray to her and other beliefs to her amounts to idolotry, which is a sin. Denying the existence of he-ll, goes against the very teachings of Christ, and is something that churches should not condone. Being accepting of other religions as merely "other paths" also goes against Jesus' teaching of him being THE way, not a way.
One thing to remember, though, believing that God will save the church from the tribulation by way of rapture before hand is not a sin. There is no command to believe it will be before or after, and has no effect on a person's eternal salvation. It is somethign that the Bible does not clearly, with absolutely certainty, when it will take place. Now, if a person or a church were to begin to place their faith in God based on the timing of the rapture, placing it's importance above that of a saving relatioship with God through Christ, then yes, there is a problem with that, because the focus is no longer on Christ and having a relationship with God for all eternity, but on being saved from temporary tribulation.
@Prism & Joe R.
I wonder how long we have until His return... He is coming back for a "spotless" bride or in other words "church."
As I see things now, the church/Bride is not spotless/pure/holy... Am I misinterpreting what Jesus wants in His People/Bride?
It could be a while until the church is ready, or He could use mass communication or other means to bring His people to true repentance and sanctification... right? what are your thoughts on this subject?
Well, here are my thoughts on the pure/spotless aspect. Remember that the church is comprised of people, the faithful believers in God through Jesus Christ. The bible says that when our sins have been forgiven by God, that we are made pure. He says us spotless, even though we are still sinners. So there is no pre-requisit for the church to get "better".
Saying that, while we are seeing a decline in values and morals of some Christian churches, we are also seeing an explosion of evangilism throughout the world. This is especially true in parts of the middle east. I have heard of reports from missionaries in Iran that there has been an explosion in the Christian population in recent years. I have even heard stories of entire towns coming to faith in Christ because people in the town all had the same dream, of an angel of God coming and telling the twon to repent and turn to God. In the dream to one man, he was told to go wait on a mountain road, and a gift would be given them to tell them everything that they needed to know. Well, this man went to where he was told, and found a man there with car troubles. Turns out that this person had a trunkful of Bibles, which were all given to this town. God provided.
Mass communications have also certainly aided in the spread of the gospel. While not every televangalist is trustworthy, there are many that are. One of the most prominent evangelists of the 20th century, who also would broadcast his crusades on TV, was Billy Graham. I have no doubt that over the decades, thousands, maybe even millions of people have come to know Christ.
Getting back to youru original question, like I said, God sees those he has forgiven as pure and spotless already, thus, he would see his church as pure and spotless.
I agree with what you say about those that are forgiven and seen by Christ as spotless, but I guess in my human perception I think there must be more or something we are missing because the church doesn't look good... from purely my perspective... I'm thinking there will be a coming revival of sorts to purify the church with a baptism of fire/Holy Spirit fire... thus santicifying the bride of Christ for His return... Sounds far fetched, right? Just pondering what COULD happen... theories of possiblities... that's all
Nonimus- I guess the basis would be "faith" and the belief that the Kingdom is being established in His time. Faith is substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things unseen.
you know...if he was really teaching the bible, he must have missed the part in the book of david, where it says NO ONE knows the time or the day it will happen. no ONE.
You don't know when He's coming, true.
However, if the Living God came to you, do you think you would recognize Him?
If anyone is "really" teaching the Bible, they would "sell everything [they] have and give to the poor" (Mark 10:21) and follow Jesus.
End of story.
Figuratively speaking, yes! However God knows our hearts and if we are willing to LOSE ALL for Him. Which I am. :) He deserves that for dying for me!
If that was directed at me, then I didn't read anything about "figuratively." If you truly have faith, then shouldn't you truly have no possessions?
And by extrapolation, shouldn't Christians only listen to the poorest of preachers?
Honestly, I'm radical in my thinking. Yes, I would do that if I didn't have a spouse who would be opposed to selling everything, and children that needed stability. :)
By the way, I know it doesn't say "figuratively"; however, Jesus spoke in parables... which is considered figurative language. And please look @ the context of that scripture... who was asking that question of Jesus & why the guy was asking that question... :)
Ah, parables... so the Bible isn't to be taken literally. What a relief.
Jesus spoke in parables so that the listeners who didn't have the Spirit of God could try to interpret His teachings... don't give up just yet... Reveal Yourself Lord! :)
Jesus knew the young man who asked Him this question loved money, things & possessions more than Him. Jesus was trying to get the young man to recognize that he wanted the "things" in life, more than he wanted to follow Jesus. Get it?
"Jesus knew the young man who asked Him this question loved money, things & possessions more than Him. Jesus was trying to get the young man to recognize that he wanted the 'things' in life, more than he wanted to follow Jesus. Get it?"
Sure, you could look at it that way, but earlier Jesus had a whole list of things that he should do, mostly the 10 Commandments, and the young man had done them all. Perhaps, the parable here was that faith, in the sense of keeping the commandments, is not enough and the truly faithful need to show their faith in a material way.
Perhaps it is up to us to manifest faith in the physical world, or manifest the Kingdom of heaven here on Earth by giving up material possessions.
If my interpretation of the parable is that God demands totally faith, both physical and spiritual, shown by complete physical poverty and complete faith in Jesus to sustain.
How is that interpretation wrong?
No, no, no.... Jesus' teachings focused on inward obedience, or obedience of the heart, rather than outward, legalistic obedience.... it's not about "doing" things... like selling everything... unless your heart is wrapped up in the love of money rather than God. Jesus' question was a rhetorical question for the young man, who had asked Jesus what else he could do for Jesus. The young man thought he was "good" but Jesus knew the young man's heart was not right....
kinda like this example... I might not be a murder, but the Bible says if I hate someone it is the same as murder... it's what's in my heart that matters to God... not legalism... does this make sense?
"For the Kingdom of God is not a matter of what we eat or drink, but of living a life of goodness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."
The Holy Spirit will establish the Kingdom of God through us. The Spirit will use us to fullfill God's purposes.... we can "do" nothing to please God except have faith... that's what the bible states... faith that He can & will fullfill His purposes through us
Sorry, just had a couple of tornados go by and had to take cover. (God must agree with me, otherwise he'd have sent the tornado directly at me. 0:) My own interpretation, of course.)
Anyway, I don't think you can separate the two inward and outward. Is it okay to kill someone if you don't intend to commit murder, a la Charles Manson, Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc.? Likewise, how can you cleave to worldly possessions and yet have faith that the Lord will provide? Isn't that just as duplicitous as hating without commiting the act of murder? Additionally, if all the focus is on the internal struggle, then why did God command 'Thou shalt not murder' instead of 'Thou shalt not hate'? I would think he means not to murder *and* not to hate, correct?
I agree with you, I don't think you can seperate the two.
"Additionally, if all the focus is on the internal struggle, then why did God command 'Thou shalt not murder' instead of 'Thou shalt not hate'? I would think he means not to murder *and* not to hate, correct?"
Sorry I thought you were referencing that a person should sell all their possessions as an act of faith....
Good question.... I think God did make this commandment all encompassing... Jesus just expanded on the thoughts about "not murdering" by explaining how hate can lead to murder, and it's in the same catergory in God's book.
"Sorry I thought you were referencing that a person should sell all their possessions as an act of faith...."
I was... or more specifically I was asking if Jesus said to give everything to the poor and follow him, then why don't the faithful do that?
I wish more people would get radical with their beliefs... I think that would be a testiment of "putting action" behind their convictions; however, I read something one time about a guy that took great pride in driving around an old beat up car. He felt like he was "good and humble" which in reverse he was actually the opposite... he was filled with pride for looking humble and poor to others. Does that make sense? Again we have to ask the question of why we do the things we do... is it to look good or because we are following Jesus and what He is directing us to do... Solomn was of great wealth, as were ohers in Bible... The three wismen brought Jesus & His parents great gifts of wealth... why wouldn't they be asked to be poor?
Sorry, didn't see this reply until today. You said:
"Again we have to ask the question of why we do the things we do... is it to look good or because we are following Jesus and what He is directing us to do... Solomn was of great wealth, as were ohers in Bible... The three wismen brought Jesus & His parents great gifts of wealth... "
"why wouldn't they be asked to be poor?"
Are you asking me to rationalize my own interpretation? Okay, I'll give it a shot. First, Jesus never said to acc.umulate wealth, that is a trap that "prosperity gospel ministries" fall into. God/Jesus has always asked humans to be first and foremost concerned with God, then others, and finally ourselves, for example, how many Commandments are for our own benefit directly? None, I think. Wasn't it said somewhere in the Bible, "if asked for your shirt, give your cloak, too" and "turn the other cheek" and "how can you eat while others go hungry" (last one may not be Biblical), also weren't the Israelites supported by manna in the dessert because of faith, weren't the ma.sses feed by fishes and loaves because of faith. Oh, Ye of little faith, depend not upon the things of this world but upon the love of your Lord for He sustainth all.
Second, your claim of Jesus speaking in parables seems weak to me since he was responding to a specific question with a specific answer. There was no story, allogory, metaphor, or similie, just a direct question and response. "What can I do?" "Do this." Although, Jesus did speak in parables as you stated earlier, like the parable of the good samaritan or the prodigal son, as far as I can tell no scholar accepts this as one, but I could be wrong about that. "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
However it is not important for me to rationalize my interpretation, my point is that almost any interpretation can be rationalized if given enough time. So the original posting of, "really teaching the Bible," is almost useless because ultimately no one can agree on what the Bible really says.
Just a question to ponder...Could it be that Jesus Christ is returning differently than we expect Him to? Everyone is expecting Him to return with the rapture... The word "rapture" isn't in the bible. Did you know that?
In the New Testament, the religious people of the day crucified Jesus because they didn't recognize who Jesus was; as well as, His new Kingdom teachings. (Era of Grace) The Pharisees couldn't accept Him or His new teachings. They wanted to continue under the old era of Old Testament Law; thus, they had Him killed because they thought He was a false teacher.
Maybe Christ is returning in the form of His Holy Spirit? Living through His believers? Our bodies are His temple, where He can live through us? Jesus was coming to baptize us with fire/or the Spirit, and He said, “Oh how I wish it was already kindled..”- I believe Jesus said that because He wanted us to live righteously, yet without His Spirit within us, it’s impossible to keep growing in grace.
Have you ever looked at what He taught? He taught The Kingdom of God/Heaven. The kingdom is supposed to already be here now! Interesting, right?
Could it be that no one knows the time or hour of His return because we receive His spirit/return at different times? Just a thought?!?!
Sure, it could be that Jesus is returning in any number of undetectable ways: holy spirit, spiritual rapture, spiritual Armageddon, manifestation of his spiritual kingdom on Earth.
But what basis does anyone have for believing any of it?
Nonimus- I guess the basis would be "faith" and the belief that the Kingdom is being established in His time. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things unseen.
Sure, it could be based on faith, but then how do you tell who's faith is correct. Camping's? yours? Jim Jones'? Ossama bin Laden's? Gandhi's? Crowley's? the Mayans'?
God/Jesus/The Spirit reveals Himself to those He chooses. I know this sounds harsh, but He wishes that "none should perish." So, I guess people should ask God to reveal Himself to them. He's faithful & willing.Then look for how He will choose to reveal himself which is different for everyone.
"God/Jesus/The Spirit reveals Himself to those He chooses... He wishes that 'none should perish.'" Then why doesn't he reveal himself to everyone in an honest, straightforward, and obvious manner? I'm sure that would reduce a lot of suffering.
"...He will choose to reveal himself which is different for everyone." Again, how do you tell one person's revelation from another's delusion?
LOL... Delusions & Faith... would you consider them synonyms? I would say that when God speaks it will be to the person's heart and their personal situations... assurance, reliance, trust.... those are synonyms for the word "faith"
Actually I was contrasting faith with delusion, however, you seem to put more substance into faith than perhaps it merits. Merriam-Webster says of faith, "Synonyms: devotion, piety, religion," not assurance or reliance.
Wouldn't you consider faith in that which is contrary to reality a delusion? Belief that the world is flat, for example. Or faith that Zeus is real origin of lightening.
I was looking at "faith" as a verb, an act of something hoped for.... an action word......
I was not looking at the word "faith" to describe or as a noun...such as "peity"
The antonym for "faith" would be "doubt" NOT "delusions" :) Thomas doubted Jesus and still Jesus was gracious towards him. Shows how loving He is with people who don't believe right away.
I posted this with a very similar comment you made at another time, but I thought I would add it to this string. I agree with a lot of what you have said in other posts, but considdering the question you posed to ponder, I must say I don't agree with that idea. The Bible is quite clear in saying that there will be a rapture (the word "rapture" is not used, but the meaning is the same) in which we will meet the Lord in the air. The Bible is also quite clear in that it says that Jesus will one day return physically to earth to reign. His second coming is not his presence as the Holy Spirit in believers. Those are two separate events.
Here also is evidence for the rapture of the church from the bible. The main idea for the rapture comes from 1 Thess 4:13-18.
The Bible may not use the word "rapture", but it does still teach the idea of a rapture. The verses you mention in your post allude to the rapture (being caught up in the air to meet the Lord, immediately after those that have died have been raised). The book of Revelation also speaks of a specific time of tribulation on earth, with a specific time frame, 7 years. It is not until AFTER this that Jesus actually returns to the earth to set up his millenial reign. What would be the point of being caught up in the air to meet Jesus if we are already on the earth when he returns at the end of the tribulation. This suggests a rapture before the tribulation.
The body of believers on earth in the past and today is collectively referred to as "the church". In the book of revelation, "the church" is not refferenced, again suggesting that "the church" is no longer present, i.e. has been raptured, before the 7 year tribulation period.
The Bible also states that God does not change, that his character does not change. The Biblehas other examples of mini "raptures". God "raptured" Noah and his family from the destruction of the flood. God "raptured" Lot and his family out of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God "raptured" the Israelites out of Egypt. God "raptured" Rahab from the destruction of Jericho. In all of these cases, God "raptured" or delivered the faithful few out of or from destruction that was on the wicked. It stands to reason then, that God would also rapture his faithful church from the destruction and punishment of the tribulation in the last days.
We can also give credence to the idea of a rapture before the tribulation if we look at Jewish culture. The Bible is full of symbolism, simile and metaphor. One of the biggest metaphors in the bible, is the comparing of Jesus and the Church as a bride and groom. In ancient Jewish culture, a man would first have to pay a dowry, or a price, or some kind for his bride, and they would then be betroathed. The groom would then build a place for he and his bride to live. This would most often be simply an addition to the house his father built, as multiple generations would usually live together. After the time of betrothal ended, the groom would then, in the middle of the night, sneak into his brides room unexpectedly to the bride, and take her away (rapture her). They would then have a wedding feast that lasted for 7 days. This entire tradition mirrors what the Bible speaks of with Jesus and the Church. Jesus paid a dowry, a price, for the church by sacrificing his life for us on the cross. When he was going to ascend up to heaven, he told his disciples that he was going to go to his father's house to prepare a room for them. The Bible states that we will return when we do not expect, in the twinkling of an eye, to take us away. And teh tribulation lasts for how long? 7 years (in the Bible, it is not uncommon for a day to be used to symbolise a year). So where is the church during the tribulation? At the wedding feast.
The idea for a rapture prior to the start of the tribulation also makes more sense when we remember that the bible says that nobody knows when that event will occur, since it will be when nobody expects. The tribulation officially starts with the signing of the peace treaty between Israel and the anti-Christ. If the rapture were to occur either half-way through, as some belive, or at the end, as others believe, we would know when exactly to expect it, because we would have a specific time table.
This is also one reason that I know that Camping and his crew simply did not make a "math mistake" or God simply postponed judgement because of their prayers. The bible specifically says that nobody knows when it will be. The Bible is also very specific that the time of tribulation will last for 7 years, not 5 months as Camping states. Also, while there will be earthquakes, this is not specifically how the earth will end. The Bible also states that if any man claims to speak for God, or makes a prediction or prophecy in the name of God, and that thing does not come to pass, then that person is a false prophet. Camping has proven himself a false prophet on more than one occasion now. God would never allow his prophets, those that speak in his name, to make an error with prophecy. God would be perfectly clear with them. So do not trust Camping.
The Bible does speak of a coming rapture though, and a coming judgement on the world. Of that much, Camping was correct, but don't listen to him when it comes to knowing about it, read the Bible instead.
I need to make a slight edit to my post about the rapture. I stated that "the church" is not mentioned in Revelation. What I meant to say is that "the church" is not mentioned once the judgements of the tribulation have started.
Very intriguing, Joe R.! I have never heard of the wedding analogy used with historical/cultural explanations. I wondered if we would have to suffer through trib since even God's son was not taken out... but fullfilled His purpose through suffering.
That is what is so wonderful about God. Yes, Christ suffered through the "tribulation" of torture and crucifixion, but remember also that Jesus was the sacrifice. He was taking our punishment for us, or in our place, so that we wouldn't have to suffer the consequences. The sacrifice on the cross pertains primarily to taking our punishment in hell, but I believe it can also be applied to the tribulation in the end times. Because Christ suffered for us, we don't have to.
Now, I feel that I must say that I do not believe that this means Christians will go through life without trials and personal mini-tribulations and suffering. The Bible says quite the opposite. But when it comes to judgement from God, Christ paid that price for us on the cross, and I believe that we will escape the judgement of the tribulation, as we will escape the White Throne Jugdement spoken of in Revelation.
I also believe that while the tribulation is a judgement of sorts, that it is also, in a way, a last act of mercy. The judgements and calamities that are described in revelation are truly for one purpose: to bring glory and honor to God by drawing those on the earth to him. I believe that the tribulation will be, in a sense, God giving one last ditch effort to draw people to him. It will be as if he is saying, "I've tried for centuries to get your attention with grace, and that hasn't worked, so now I must resort to more drastic measures." (Please note that this last paragraph is more my own conjecture, and is not as firmly backed by scripture, it is more my feeling, other than knowing that that the acts described in Revelation are meant to bring glory to God, that bit is in the Bible).
Okay, faith vs. doubt, although, I'm not sure how you'd use faith as a verb. Regardless of antonyms or negations, if faith proves unfounded, what is it called?
But that is immaterial to my point; if the intent or meaning of something is faith, then everyone's faith-based interpretation is equal, correct?
" if faith proves unfounded, what is it called?"
I guess my faith is a "belief" of that thing which I cannot see... it's a trust, an assurance...If it proves unfounded... I have no choice but to keep searching for the proof, but the crazy thing about God is that He is pleased when we have child-like faith... and when we choose to believe in Him in this way, He decides to show Himself to us... Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God
Finally, what are people searching for with faith? Are we looking for peace? God? Budda? Muhammad?
For some reason, my posts in response to another line of commenting this page keeps saying that they are awaiting moderation. I'm not sure why. I'm following the line of dialogue, and not using any sort of bad language or anything like that. Hmm...hopefully this post makes it.
Anyway, not everybodies faith-based interpretation are equal, because they logically cannot be. People have faith in what they believe to be truth. Truth, by definiton, has only one meaning. It must be true for all people, in all places, at all times. For example, the simple mathmatical statement of 1+1=2 is true. It is true and always true. 1+1 will never equal 3, or 4, or 5. If an atheist believes that God does not exist, and a theist believs God does exist, one of these faiths must be true. God cannot both exist and not exist at the same time. He must either exist, or not exist. One statement can be true, but both cannot be true, and both cannot be false as they are opposite claims.
People of different faiths believe differnt things about God to be true. Muslims have faith about what they believe to be true about God, while Christians have beliefs about what they think is true about God. Christians believe that Jesus was God incarnate in flesh, Muslims believe he was a prophet, but not God. In this case, both Christians and Muslims could both be wrong, as there are other possibilites of who Jesus could have been, but they cannot both be truth. Jesus could not have been both the son of God, and not the son of God. Truth only ever corresponds to undeniable facts, whether these facts are known or not.
So no, not all faith based interpretations are equal. Even in just Christianity, there are some disagreements about things. One thing that I have mentioned before is the rapture. Some Christians believe that the rapture will take place before the tribulation, other's half-way through, and others that it won't happen at all. Personall, based on what I believe and know of God, I believe that it will happen before. But it cannot happen both before the rapture and not at all. One belief must be true, while the other must be false. Now, in this case, we will not really know for certain until the event happens, so lively discussion is certainly useful.
go to http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/10/how-to-be-a-rock-star-a-little-faith-helps/comment-page-9/#comment-462774
about 11 comments down; one by Reality covers the moderated rules.
"If it proves unfounded... I have no choice but to keep searching for the proof, but the crazy thing about God is that He is pleased when we have child-like faith..."
How is this different than what Camping is doing?
I believe I have found the Truth... I pressed in hard with prayer and followed what Jesus said to do... seek ye first the kingdom, seek God's face... I searched the Bible... and God was faithful to show Himself... I was seeking and knocking... He answered... Camping is on a journey too... I'm not sure if he is seeking God first... Camping is trying to figure something that God has chosen to hide from everyone... including Jesus...
The whole episode demonstrates yet again that:
"Religion is for the ignorant, the gullible, the stupid, and the cowardly, and for those who would profit from them."
-Camping being in at least the final category, having apparently made millions off the sheeple who fell for this scam.
I heard that people checking into his financials found that most of it went into the warnings.
Religion is for those who don't recognize they can have a relationship with the Living God/Jesus instead of boring rules & regulations, right?
Religion is for those who don't recognize they can have a relationship with the Living God/Jesus instead of boring rules & regulations, right?
Interesting. Can you describe the exact nature of your relationship with the Living God?
Can YOU describe a close relationship that you have with one that you love & care deeply for?
We could be here awhile, I suspect... ;)
The nature of the relationship I have with the Living God began before the world was created. He knew me before He placed me in my mother's womb, so I guess it would take a while to describe... lol
The nature of the relationship I have with the Living God began before the world was created. He knew me before He placed me in my mother's womb, so I guess it would take a while to describe... lol
I'm not trying to be at all critical, simply looking for understanding. "Relationship" implies some different things, and we could be here awhile and I'm not looking for that. But, in the way of relationships with other humans, for instance, there's implied back-and-forth, communication. Are you suggesting you have that with God, in such a way that would imply a relationship? Sounds like what you're describing is "admiration", for the ideal you hold of God? And, how do you know your relationship began before you came to be in the womb?
It is my guess that you would mock me if I described having a back & forth relationship with God... but in reality I do... I don't expect you to understand a very real, personal relationship that is nutured through "faith" in which pleased God greatly. My prayer is that all people could have an intimate relationship with Him... then we see legalistic religion gone and the true hope for why Jesus died fullfilled... which is the original relationship with God that began in the garden restored.... I pray God will open your eyes to a real relationship if you haven't discovered it... it will change your life
It is my guess that you would mock me if I described having a back & forth relationship with God...
Well, that's too bad. I likely wouldn't mock you. Just trying to understand some people. I believe in God/Higher Power, just not all the tenants of human created organized religions.
Sorry if I came acrossed as cynical... I believe God reveals Himself to people when He's ready & for me it was during a time of great searching and prayer. I had been a Christian since a child, baptized at 11, sent to a Christian college etc. but I didn't truly have a back & forth relationship until I begged God to reveal His Spirit to me. It took about a week of praying for this... but He did reveal Himself and speak... that's what I meant when I stated earlier..."no one know the time of His coming" I believe He comes when He wills/purposes for it to occur... we can't make it happen... the relationship... we can ask for it and hope for it
I know I'm going to come off as mean and critical so I first want to state that though it is not my intention to be I still have a really hard time wrapping my head around your absolute assurance in your creator. I'm interested to know, did this god talk to you via burning bush? angel? in your head? How much of a relationship to you hold with him vs. say....the pope? and are you sure this god is the one of jesus rather than the jews, or muhammed or even hindus? This all just sounds so fishy to me, I just can't watch you make these claims and feel you actually 100% believe in them.
Laughing- I can only tell you the truth of what I have experienced with the Jewish Jesus of the Bible. I was raised to believe in Him from a young age and I've never had a need to look into the other religions because the relationship I have with Him has been the fullfillment of my live and my purpose for living.
If I told you my experience with God speaking to me was similiar to the burning bush, you might have to pick yourself up off the floor from laughing so hard. Yet, I did have an experience that I would catergorize as supernatural... are you jealous, yet?
That supernatural experience happened only once....He speaks in MANY different ways and through various vehicles if you have spiritual ears to hear Him, and if He is gracious enough to speak.
"...I've never had a need to look into the other religions because the relationship I have with Him has been the fullfillment of my live and my purpose for living."
And, this is exactly what followers of other religions will say about their own practices. So, in the end, religious "truth" is relative to the individual? I'd say that's just fine, as long as it stays within the individual. It's when the individual states that non-adherents to their way of thinking are fated to some silly eternal damnation, that we get into trouble.
@Madtown, you took the words right out of my mouth, however I urge Kingdom to do a little digging into other religions. They're pretty interesting, and I say that as a scholar not as adhering to a religion of any sort. You might find that you have a lot in common with a person who believes in Hinduism or even Taoism.
Can you describe this supernatural experience? Was it akin to talking with an angel or did you just infer that it was something weird going on?
After praying & fasting, I had a dream... not your normal, "I ate too much pizza dream" if you know what I mean... I had been seeking & knocking for His Spirit I guess... In my dream, my entire body began to burn as if on fire from the center of my being and the heat radiated to my outward limbs... When this happened, I heard God say, "Speak My Words" .... It felt as if I would die when He spoke. Then I awoke from my dream, and as I sat up, the heat from the fire was still running down my arm. I believe this is what happened...
(Luke 3:16-17 NIV) John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
"For our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
So here I am today, speaking God's word through a blog... :)
or maybe in 10 months, or 10 years or, most likely, in 5 billion years.
Just a question to ponder...Could it be that Christ is returning differently than we expect Him to? Everyone is expecting Him return with the rapture...
In the New Testament, the religious people of the day crucified Jesus because they didn't recognize His new Kingdom that He came to establish & teach. (Era of Grace) The Pharisees couldn't except His new teachings. They wanted to continue under the old era of Old Testament Law; thus, they had Him killed.
Maybe Christ is returning in the form of His Holy Spirit? Living through His believers? Have you ever looked at what He taught? He taught The Kingdom of God/Heaven. The kingdom is supposed to already be here now! Interesting, right?
you are crazy
That's what they said about Jesus! Thank you! :)
I agree with a lot of what you have said in other posts, but considdering the question you posed to ponder, I must say I don't agree with that idea. The Bible is quite clear in saying that there will be a rapture (the word "rapture" is not used, but the meaning is the same) in which we will meet the Lord in the air. The Bible is also quite clear in that it says that Jesus will one day return physically to earth to reign. His second coming is not his presence as the Holy Spirit in believers. Those are two separate events.
Joe R. – Do you believe we will be raptured before trib., during or after?
My personal belief is that we will be raptured before. You have two similar comments on this page. I just posted why I believe the church is raptured before the tribulation under one of your other comments on this page, so I won't repost it here.
Harold Camping needs to recant, retire, and go into obscurity. How many people quit their jobs, put pets to sleep, spend large chunks of their life savings, or after it didn't happen, jump of a bridge and drown like what happened in the Detroit area.
If people blew money or whatever over this, all I can do is laugh at the morons. The world is full of morons, and anyone who offed themselves the next day because this prediction didn't happen, well, it's good for the gene pool.
Camping is insane as was JC. JC's family and friends had it right 2000 years ago ( Mark 3: 21 "And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself."
Said passage is one of the few judged to be authentic by most contemporary NT scholars. e.g. See Professor Ludemann's conclusion in his book, Jesus After 2000 Years, p. 24 and p. 694.
Or did P, M, M, L and J simply make him into a first century magic-man via their epistles and gospels of semi-fiction? Most contemporary NT experts after thorough analyses of all the scriptures go with the latter magic-man conclusion with J's gospels being mostly fiction.
Obviously, today's followers of Paul et al's "magic-man" are also a bit on the odd side believing in all the Christian mumbo jumbo about bodies resurrecting, and exorcisms, and miracles, and "magic-man atonement, and infallible, old, European, white men, and 24/7 body/blood sacrifices followed by consumption of said sacrifices.
An analysis of the writing of the Gospels and Roman history indicates that Roman Emperors essentially controlled what was made into the New Testament for political purposes. They wanted to use Christianity to beef up the Roman Armies as a recruiting tool. Look at our Armies today and you can see the same effect.
5 months seems like juuuuust enough time to milk donations out of people who follow a man instead of Jesus, and who obviously don't read Scripture.
doesnt matter...either way people are going to be "milked" out of their money either by this man or by the church.
You're assuming we need to "follow" anything or anyone. Following a man whos been dead for 2000 years is just as bad as following any other nut claiming the end is near.
It's amazing the array of conclusions available to you when critical thinking is abandoned. None of the idiots that follow this idiot deserve their money back. They are the only ones dumber than Camping.
"Who is more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"
– Obi-wan Kenobi
I do not believe in Camping. However, you are referencing foolish people....
"‘Hear this now, O foolish people, without understanding,
Who have eyes and see not, and who have ears and hear not:
Do you not fear Me?’ says the Lord. ‘Will you not tremble at My presence?" Jeremiah 5:21-22
I think we shall (at the very least) tremble in His presence.
Why are news agencies giving this guy anymore time! This is one of the few reasons he is able to thrive. He has been wrong how many times before and yet agencies such as CNN are wasting our time with this drivel inside of real news.
I agree, however the answer to your question is in the number of comments on this story. Currently, almost 5000! That's a lot of comments. Many comments to a story means many visits to CNN.com, which makes advertisers happy, which means more money for CNN. So, again, while I agree with you that the attention this buffoon is getting, it won't stop as long as people react to it.
PLEASE, CNN. Ignore these idiots. Would it be news if I said I was going to turn into a turnip at midnight? No, and neither is this foolishness. in fact, one could easily make a case for this being irresponsible journalism. You DO maaintain a high standard of professionalism most of the time. Don't besmirch it with this crap.
Im stuck on "I don't have spiritual rule over anybody ... except my wife as the head of the household".. Anyone knows he nuts if he is claiming to have rule over his wife... what is wrong with people..
According to the bible a wife is to be submissive to her husband.
just another reason why the bible is bunk, maggie.
The bible says a lot of things Maggie. Even devout Christians these days eat shrimp and wear mixed fibers. Which shows how foolish the entire thing is.
The Bible tells wives to be submissive to their husbands yes. But submiseviness is NOT subserviance. Submisiveness is following the other's lead. The Bible goes on to say that husbands are to love their wives as themselves, just as Christ loved the Church. The Bible says husbands are to love and respect their wives. And they are to use Christ's example of leadership. WHen one looks at Jesus' example, the way he was a leader was by SERVING others. So the Bible basically says that husbands should serve their wives out of love and respect. And because of that love and respect that a husband shows, the wife should follow his lead.
Ephesians 5:25-28–25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
Carny. People love to spend their money on games that are in the house's favor.
You can't fix crazy, but you CAN send Seal Team Six after it and shoot it in the head.
The world is going to end sometime in the future. Send me as much money as you can because you wont be needing it much longer. (Just kidding) It's not amazing that this guys continues to make silly predictions, it's amazing that people follow and believe in him.
Don't return that RV to California, take it someplace nice like the Keys or Disney and relax. If the the world is going to end in October why would Camping need it back? To sell? Keep the RV. On
October 22, leave the RV wherever it is, drop the keys in the sewer and go back to work.
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