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My Take: Bible condemns a lot, so why focus on homosexuality?
June 21st, 2011
10:10 AM ET

My Take: Bible condemns a lot, so why focus on homosexuality?

Editor's Note: Jonathan Dudley is the author of Broken Words: The Abuse of Science and Faith in American Politics.

By Jonathan Dudley, Special to CNN

Growing up in the evangelical community, I learned the Bible’s stance on homosexuality is clear-cut. God condemns it, I was taught, and those who disagree just haven’t read their Bibles closely enough.

Having recently graduated from Yale Divinity School, I can say that my childhood community’s approach to gay rights—though well intentioned—is riddled with self-serving double standards.

I don’t doubt that the one New Testament author who wrote on the subject of male-male intercourse thought it a sin. In Romans 1, the only passage in the Bible where a reason is explicitly given for opposing same-sex relations, the Apostle Paul calls them “unnatural.”

Problem is, Paul’s only other moral argument from nature is the following: “Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is degrading to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory?” (1 Corinthians 11:14-15).

Few Christians would answer that question with a “yes.”

In short, Paul objects to two things as unnatural: one is male-male sex and the other is long hair on men and short hair on women. The community opposed to gay marriage takes one condemnation as timeless and universal and the other as culturally relative.

I also don’t doubt that those who advocate gay marriage are advocating a revision of the Christian tradition.

But the community opposed to gay marriage has itself revised the Christian tradition in a host of ways. For the first 1500 years of Christianity, for example, marriage was deemed morally inferior to celibacy. When a theologian named Jovinian challenged that hierarchy in 390 A.D. — merely by suggesting that marriage and celibacy might be equally worthwhile endeavors — he was deemed a heretic and excommunicated from the church.

How does that sit with “family values” activism today?

Yale New Testament professor Dale B. Martin has noted that today’s "pro-family" activism, despite its pretense to be representing traditional Christian values, would have been considered “heresy” for most of the church’s history.

The community opposed to gay marriage has also departed from the Christian tradition on another issue at the heart of its social agenda: abortion.

Unbeknownst to most lay Christians, the vast majority of Christian theologians and saints throughout history have not believed life begins at conception.

Although he admitted some uncertainty on the matter, the hugely influential 4th and 5th century Christian thinker Saint Augustine wrote, “it could not be said that there was a living soul in [a] body” if it is “not yet endowed with senses.”

Thomas Aquinas, a Catholic saint and a giant of mediaeval theology, argued: “before the body has organs in any way whatever, it cannot be receptive of the soul.”

American evangelicals, meanwhile, widely opposed the idea that life begins at conception until the 1970s, with some even advocating looser abortion laws based on their reading of the Bible before then.

It won’t do to oppose gay marriage because it’s not traditional while advocating other positions that are not traditional.

And then there’s the topic of divorce. Although there is only one uncontested reference to same-sex relations in the New Testament, divorce is condemned throughout, both by Jesus and Paul. To quote Jesus from the Gospel of Mark: “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery.”

A possible exception is made only for unfaithfulness.

The community most opposed to gay marriage usually reads these condemnations very leniently. A 2007 issue of Christianity Today, for example, featured a story on its cover about divorce that concluded that Christians should permit divorce for “adultery,” “emotional and physical neglect” and “abandonment and abuse.”

The author emphasizes how impractical it would be to apply a strict interpretation of Jesus on this matter: “It is difficult to believe the Bible can be as impractical as this interpretation implies.”

Indeed it is.

On the other hand, it’s not at all difficult for a community of Christian leaders, who are almost exclusively white, heterosexual men, to advocate interpretations that can be very impractical for a historically oppressed minority to which they do not belong – homosexuals.

Whether the topic is hair length, celibacy, when life begins, or divorce, time and again, the leaders most opposed to gay marriage have demonstrated an incredible willingness to consider nuances and complicating considerations when their own interests are at stake.

Since graduating from seminary, I no longer identify with the evangelical community of my youth. The community gave me many fond memories and sound values but it also taught me to take the very human perspectives of its leaders and attribute them to God.

So let’s stop the charade and be honest.

Opponents of gay marriage aren’t defending the Bible’s values. They’re using the Bible to defend their own.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Jonathan Dudley.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Bible • Christianity • Homosexuality • Opinion

soundoff (6,474 Responses)
  1. Tock

    I've seen this article written over fifty times.

    Nothing new is presented; former opinions and fallacious arguments are just regurgitated. The more "conservative" paradigm is falsely represented as ignorant of their faith.... again. *Yawn* As a pro-choice, pro-equality, African-American, bible-believing theology major, I feel that there are better arguments that are not be considered because some guy with a Yale degree seems more qualified. There was no reason to write or publish this article.

    August 9, 2011 at 9:46 am |
    • Juggling Squirrel-Jesus

      I've seen this post written over a hundred times. An article is discredit as being unoriginal and poorly reasoned without even an attempt to back up such claims. yawn. There was no reason to submit such a meaningless post.

      August 9, 2011 at 9:52 am |
    • LOL

      "There was no reason to write or publish this article."

      LMAO – it' is published and that's why it's on CNN.

      "Nothing new is presented; former opinions and fallacious arguments are just regurgitated."

      That's why the laws are slowly changing and gays are getting the right to marry and those trying to block are being found unconstitutional. The truth about gays is coming out and showing that what people thought about it in the past were nothing more than prejudice bigtots.

      August 9, 2011 at 10:27 am |
    • Kinship

      And what better arguments are those?

      August 9, 2011 at 12:45 pm |
  2. Bella

    I find and always found myself to be attracted to married men...must be in my DNA or the development of my brain. So it's okay if I sleep with other women's husband even though the bible explicitedly says adultery is wrong. Hmmmm.

    August 8, 2011 at 5:59 pm |
    • LOL

      Do you have the scientific research to back that up comprised of 154,000 scientist and psychologist with 35 years of well documented research. Nice try on distorting the facts you must take every thing literally and not backed up with real facts..

      August 8, 2011 at 6:20 pm |
    • Rick

      Since you take things so literally Bella you can have sex with a married man since polygamy is part of the bible. Plus if that doesn't work out and you get raped you'll have to marry your rapist but if that doesn't satisfy you're sexual needs you could always have sex with your brother since that's how Adam and Eve's family created humanity.

      August 8, 2011 at 6:27 pm |
    • fred

      Rick,
      What was that all about? I hope you know the Word of God often referred to as the bible does not say any of that stuff. Please let me know if you need some help on any one topic. Can't do all of them at once so pick the one that you think has the best chance of being true and I am happy to respond

      August 8, 2011 at 6:31 pm |
    • Rick

      Duh Fred I was being sarcastic since my post made about as much sense as Bella's.

      POLYGAMY
      Genesis 4:19
      And Lamech took unto him two wives.
      Genesis 16:1-4
      Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. And Sarai ... gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived.
      Genesis 25:6
      But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had....
      Genesis 26:34
      Esau ... took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite.
      Genesis 31:17
      Then Jacob rose up, and set ... his wives upon camels.
      Exodus 21:10
      If he take him another wife....
      Deuteronomy 21:15
      If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated....
      Judges 8:30
      And Gideon had threescore and ten sons of his body begotten: for he had many wives.
      1 Samuel 1:1-2
      Elkanah ... had two wives; the name of the one was Hannah, and the name of the other Peninnah.
      2 Samuel 12:7-8
      Thus saith the LORD God of Israel ... I gave thee ... thy master's wives....
      1 Kings 11:2-3
      Solomon ... had seven hundred wives ... and three hundred concubines.
      1 Chronicles 4:5
      And Ashur the father of Tekoa had two wives, Helah and Naarah.
      2 Chronicles 11:21
      Rehoboam ... took eighteen wives, and threescore concubines.
      2 Chronicles 13:21
      But Abijah waxed mighty, and married fourteen wives....
      2 Chronicles 24:3
      Jehoiada took for him two wives....
      Mt.25:1
      Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

      INCEST

      Genesis 19:30-36 ESV / 24 helpful votes
      Now Lot went up out of Zoar and lived in the hills with his two daughters, for he was afraid to live in Zoar. So he lived in a cave with his two daughters. And the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of all the earth. Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.” So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father. He did not know when she lay down or when she arose. The next day, the firstborn said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father. Let us make him drink wine tonight also. Then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.” ...

      RAPE
      Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (King James Version)

      28If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

      29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

      -–Now we all know better don’t we but we could take it literally as Bella does.

      August 8, 2011 at 6:52 pm |
    • fred

      Rick
      Thanks I see you have had lots of practice taking words from the bible out of context to fit your needs.

      August 8, 2011 at 7:46 pm |
    • Milton

      @Fred- Ppl do like to apply modern society upon the ppl of the Bible..not to mention they nit pick verses they do not understand.

      August 8, 2011 at 7:48 pm |
    • fred

      Bella
      LOL
      I have an excess amount of Testosterone so it much more difficult for me to remain faithful. Is it still adultry? I was born this way and can prove it. Will God be more or less forgiving?

      August 8, 2011 at 7:54 pm |
    • Rick

      "Thanks I see you have had lots of practice taking words from the bible out of context to fit your needs."

      fred, that's the point of the article people pick and choose to fit the context to justify their personal prejudices. Christians can't admit how prejudice they are because their egos are in control, like yours.

      August 8, 2011 at 10:40 pm |
    • Observer

      Fred,

      EVERYONE picks and chooses from the Bible. When it comes to gays, you have chosen to pick verses to foster hatred rather than the love spoken of by the Golden Rule. It's all hypocrisy to ignor the Golden Rule.

      August 8, 2011 at 11:02 pm |
    • fred

      Observer,
      You got the wrong fred or jyou are ust repeating a tired old line that you know to be a lie

      August 9, 2011 at 12:10 am |
    • Observer

      fred,

      I haven't said anything that's a lie. Don't so ignorantly call me a liar when you don't know any better.

      August 9, 2011 at 12:24 am |
    • Euphony

      I hope you are speaking , not as doing such things, but as if what others are saying is true, then what you are saying would be true, also. So, I agree with your points.

      August 11, 2011 at 12:51 am |
    • Euphony

      Rick, those items that you made about Bella are false! About who Bella could be with because it is in the Bible. Yes, it is recorded, but as sins and as causing a lot of deaths in the family, etc.

      August 11, 2011 at 2:03 am |
  3. Rainy

    What a thoughtful and well written piece. Why in deed do so many people point out that teaching ,but ignore the very specific teachings of Jesus that we humans are not to judge, because we do not see things as God sees things. We are called to love – not agree with, not to like, not to hate – but to love. The Greek word "love" used in the original manuscripts does not have to do with the emotion that we so often think of, but a way of life. In English we love our spouse, our cat, and a blueberry muffin. In Greek we love those who hate us, not with an emotional feeling but with the work of prayer and kindness. Peace to you Jonathan

    August 7, 2011 at 5:08 pm |
  4. Lee Cherry

    Thanks Bro

    August 6, 2011 at 8:25 pm |
  5. Lee Cherry

    How can Christians twist something that is written right there in the Bible, in plain english, in black and white—Oh you say Jesus did away with all those rules and regulations at the cross. Get a life. Eternal life!

    August 6, 2011 at 7:46 pm |
    • J.W

      Try reading some of the other posts on this story. There has been some interesting information regarding translation, culture, scientific studies, etc.

      August 6, 2011 at 7:51 pm |
    • Kinship

      lol, "written in plain English," eh? The Bible wasn't written in English you id.iot

      August 6, 2011 at 8:13 pm |
    • Splovengates

      Thats part of the problem—TOO MANY BIBLE TRANSLATIONS. All tailored to fit a particular point of veiw or opinion.See how the newer translations have changed meanings of many parts of Old and New testaments. I like the KJV. There seems to be a special blessing to be had read it. Besides, many died for that version.

      August 6, 2011 at 8:14 pm |
    • Splovengates

      Go 'ahead Lee speak the truth. The Bible means what is says and says what it means.
      The Bible is truth, one hundred percent

      August 6, 2011 at 8:21 pm |
    • Rick

      There are early versions of the bible that don't have the word homosexual in them. So it's not black and white.

      August 7, 2011 at 10:32 am |
    • whatever

      there are too many translations...so read it in the Hebrew and Greek...it is wonderful!

      August 8, 2011 at 4:51 pm |
  6. mookiemu

    Great to read the writings of a reasonable person.

    August 6, 2011 at 3:47 pm |
  7. Progress

    Ministers will publicly unveil a proclamation on Wednesday calling for an end to religious and civil discrimination based on sexual orientation.

    The pastor said the proclamation was created because, “we were just fed up with the popular notion that the Christian point of view is anti-gay.”

    The pastor said more than 100 ordained Christian ministers have signed the proclamation, including leaders from Lutheran, Episcopalian, United Church of Christ, Methodist and Presbyterian churches.

    The ministers will join together to publicly unveil the proclamation and show full acceptance of gay, lesbian, bi-sexual and transgender people.

    “We believe homosexuality is not a sin. It’s not a birth defect or a choice. God created people this way. And if God created them this way, they need to be honored for who they are, and fully included in church life and wider society,” the pastor said, whose words are reflected in the document.

    The pastor said after sharing his point of view, he’s learned that many Christians hold the same beliefs, but have not openly expressed them. That’s the reason the proclamation also includes an apology to the gay community.

    “We felt it was important for us to apologize for the times when we ourselves have been silent. Some of us have not always been on this side of the issue,” the pastor said.

    The pastor said he unveiled a similar proclamation while working with another church three years ago in Arizona. He said nine Catholic priests were ordered to remove their names from the proclamation or be removed from the priesthood.

    The pastor’s efforts are bold. “It really does take one person or a small group of people to make a big impact. In 10, or 20 years, I think people will think, why wasn’t it always this way?”

    The proclamation is, "the Christian thing to do.”

    “The whole point of Christianity is love and compassion.” The pastors aid in ministering to gay, lesbian and transgender people, he’s learned that he must first convince them that God doesn’t hate them before he can share the message that God loves them.

    “It’s very clear and very simple. We want to be open to all people,” said the pastor.

    August 6, 2011 at 10:53 am |
    • frank

      "The pastor said the proclamation was created because, “we were just fed up with the popular notion that the Christian point of view is anti-gay.”"
      Unfortunately it's much more than a "popular notion", it's a crystal clear fact.

      August 6, 2011 at 8:01 pm |
    • Rick

      That's why 100 minsters signed off on it and why there are many churches that have said being gay is not a sin. It's not a crystal clear fact which is why this debate goes on. The ministers understand now that people are born gay and that is not addressed in the bible.

      August 7, 2011 at 10:29 am |
  8. TJ

    Jonathan makes a very salient point, which points out the hypocrisy of too many ultra-religious leaders, and the zealots among the believers. I have a great respect for folks that 'find' religion or are faithful followers, but that respect is not extended nor deserved by those people when they cast aspersions on others, especially when it is undeserved. Remember: "Do Unto Others"

    August 5, 2011 at 1:02 am |
    • CrownRoyal

      Exactly. These zealots twist the fact the bible says Lust is the sin. Basically, intercourse is for means of reproducing, and straight and gay, both, equally, are guilty of lust. They really have no place to declare one more wrong than the other, except that gay intercourse has no possibility of producing offspring. But that's in accordance with the Bible and people are too immature to want to listen to it.

      August 5, 2011 at 5:35 pm |
    • Acutally

      "people are too immature to want to listen to it."

      Yeah it's amazing how immature people are and won't actually look at the scientific facts that people are born gay.

      August 5, 2011 at 5:58 pm |
  9. Michael

    I can't see the truth and I am completely ignorant to the facts, I have to hold to that to justify my pathetic bigotry and prejudices. I realize the author is right and my ego is completely insulted so I felt the need to do this rant because deep down I am insecure in my beliefs so I have to take out on gays and lesbians.

    This is who you are! the lying to self and the running away from truth will get you no sleep!

    August 4, 2011 at 9:56 pm |
    • Michael

      Tylenol PM works really well and I recommend it to any one who suffers from sycophantic tendencies.

      August 4, 2011 at 10:03 pm |
  10. Searching for Answers

    I have found some of this discussion very interesting. I think that Jonathan makes some very good points. I grew up in a Catholic family and have spent a lot of my life trying to convince myself that I was not a lesbian because I knew that it would not be accepted well by my family. We are taught that it is okay to be gay, but you must then lead a chaste single life. For me, this is very bothersome. And the main argument that I get against gay-marriage is not due to the scripture in Romans, but that God created man and woman and that they are meant to fit together for the biological purpose of reproduction. I really have no response to this. I was just wondering what others thought of this argument against gay marriage.

    August 4, 2011 at 7:15 pm |
    • Observer

      In order to reproduce, the ONLY requirement is that an egg and a sperm get together. The orientation of the suppliers is totally irrelevent.

      Be the person you were born to be and forget about what religious hypocrites say. Those considered the most religious people of all (Jesus, nearly every disciple, John the Baptist, the pope, priests, nuns, monks, etc.) were never married and they are praised for it. It's all pick and choose hypocrisy. Paul, in the New Testament, even says that men shouldn't touch women and that the only reason to get married is due to being unable to control lust. That's not much of an endorsement for heteros. You have nothing to be ashamed off and are far less of a hypocrite.

      August 5, 2011 at 11:47 pm |
    • Normon

      @Searching for Answers,
      I think there are some good responses to the reproduction aspect. You could start with the fact that there are multiple species that have individuals with same-se.x tendencies, so it is not unnatural. You might also question the one-and-only goal being reproduction because 1) are they saying that people are no more than baby factories, in which case why worry about morality and spirituality or 2) that would mean that single people are worth less than married couples, or infertile couples? Would God be so cruel as to create ho.mos.exual people and then forbid their ever experiencing any personal romantic relationship because of it.
      And, I'm sure there are more.

      August 8, 2011 at 5:14 pm |
  11. Ugh

    I don't know if I'm more horrified by some of the opinions here, or by the fact that 75% of the people producing said opnions seem to think that plural words call for an apostrophe.

    August 4, 2011 at 4:41 pm |
    • huh...

      At least they're more articulate than you and know how to spell when stating their opinions! Did you notice the spelling in opinions... Duh...

      August 4, 2011 at 5:59 pm |
  12. hippypoet

    oh boy another idiot said that god is inside him.. i asked if there was room for the pope?!?!?!

    August 4, 2011 at 2:57 pm |
    • Larry

      GodPot- hmmm, interesting "name". Think for one moment what would happen if God made His presence known in physical terms. Everyone would "believe" but not out of choice, but simply by fear. many simply would not believe. According to the Old Testamnet, God did make His presence known before the Israelites. time and again they asked for forgiveness for brushing the Lord aside. God was patient and again came before the Israeli people. My point is, even if God where to "appear" today, people would still not believe! God has revealed Himself and man has truned away. If you have faith in God, scripture says you will be "saved". If not- Hell? Not exactly. We (man) has made a visualization of hell as under ground with a horned satan. No, hell is simply seperation from God. the Lord does not make anyone love and accept Him. It is a choice. unfortunately, many MANY people have claimed to believe in Christ, but really have no idea what it means. Because they have been deceived, they did many things contrary to God's Word. In other words, they did not study God's word and really understand it. What is Satan's goal (by the way, satan is not a red devil, but rather a very beautiful angel), to steer man away from God and God will allow us to make that choice. do not condemn people who believe. scientist will never "see" strings of energy psotulated in String Theory, but they do believe they exist! Is it science then or philosophy? there are many things we cannot "see" but that doesnot mean they are not real! Just as you see the Christian believer as someone who believes in things that cannot be seen, there are many things in science we cannot see, but rather "see" their affects. By the way, I am a scientist.

      August 4, 2011 at 3:48 pm |
  13. Jean-Robert

    The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 2:14

    August 4, 2011 at 2:05 pm |
    • Larry

      So true....so true. What is irronic is that the very people who criticise or condemn Christ ( thus the New testament) do so because of their lack of wisdom. They are blinded from the truth.

      August 4, 2011 at 2:18 pm |
    • GodPot

      The man without the blindfold does not accept the things that come from the magician, for they are foolishness to him, since he can see them and understand them, because they are visually discerned.

      August 4, 2011 at 2:53 pm |
    • Larry

      GodPot- hmmm, interesting "name". Think for one moment what would happen if God made His presence known in physical terms. Everyone would "believe" but not out of choice, but simply by fear. many simply would not believe. According to the Old Testamnet, God did make His presence known before the Israelites. time and again they asked for forgiveness for brushing the Lord aside. God was patient and again came before the Israeli people. My point is, even if God where to "appear" today, people would still not believe! God has revealed Himself and man has truned away. If you have faith in God, scripture says you will be "saved". If not- Hell? Not exactly. We (man) has made a visualization of hell as under ground with a horned satan. No, hell is simply seperation from God. the Lord does not make anyone love and accept Him. It is a choice. unfortunately, many MANY people have claimed to believe in Christ, but really have no idea what it means. Because they have been deceived, they did many things contrary to God's Word. In other words, they did not study God's word and really understand it. What is Satan's goal (by the way, satan is not a red devil, but rather a very beautiful angel), to steer man away from God and God will allow us to make that choice. do not condemn people who believe. scientist will never "see" strings of energy psotulated in String Theory, but they do believe they exist! Is it science then or philosophy? there are many things we cannot "see" but that doesnot mean they are not real! Just as you see the Christian believer as someone who believes in things that cannot be seen, there are many things in science we cannot see, but rather "see" their affects. By the way, I am a scientist.

      August 4, 2011 at 3:31 pm |
    • huh...

      "Think for one moment what would happen if God made His presence known in physical terms. Everyone would "believe" but not out of choice, but simply by fear. many simply would not believe."

      That is what he ll is for to make people believe through fear of eternal da-mnation, so it's pointless your god uses fear regardless. It's fun to read the excuses and reasoning of babbling christians trying to justify their point of views. You should all become pretzel makers with all the twisting you do.

      August 4, 2011 at 3:51 pm |
    • GodPot

      @Larry – My point was not that invisible things do not exist, but that religious "magicians" throughout history get to make up story's to explain the things we cannot see, and in so doing have bilked the masses for untold amount's of hard earned money, all for a magic show. There is NO evidence that God showed proved himself time and again to his people as the bible claims. There are NO other accounts from any other nations in the vicinity about a mass of people wandering the desert with a fiery cloud over their heads. I am not saying God cannot exist, I am saying that i'm never going to put a blindfold on again and give money to people who are trying to tell me that invisible spirits exist and that we must take care to preserve our invisible immortal soul's, please drop a $20 on the plate, abracadabra, your saved, thank you and goodnight.

      August 4, 2011 at 6:19 pm |
  14. Larry

    If you look at what happens to great Republics in tha past, they generally have not fallen because of external threats, but have fallen because of internal threats. Look at Rome as an example; the longest standing Republic in the history of mankind. the roman empire fell because of many reason by three seem to resonate today. First- the decline in moral values and political civility at home– over confidence and over extended military around the world–and fiscal irresponsibility by the central government. Sounds very familiar doesn't it? This is precisely the road we are heading down in America today and the steady rise in immorality in our society (Gay Marraige as a big one) is pushing us over the edge. Unfortunately, the liberals in America as well as some Republicans are behind the wheel. When you party too much and indulge your vises, you will fal and fall hard. The problem in my view- falling away from the Christian principles that allowed for the freedoms we enjoy and of which our government is slowly taking away. Immorality is not a right, but a choice that selfish man has embraced. Just look at Rome.

    August 4, 2011 at 1:47 pm |
    • Seriously?

      The Roman Empire emerged from the Roman Republic when Julius Caesar and Augustus Caesar transformed it from a republic into a monarchy. It has nothing to do with what you are trying to imply and there is no way the US is going to become a monarchy. No wonder you don’t comprehend the scriptures but congratulations you just proved this authors point. You are twisting what you want to justify your prejudice viewpoints.

      August 4, 2011 at 2:25 pm |
    • Larry

      Seriously- No, I do not take your view point seriously. You are completely missing the point. Irregardless of the type of leadership, the society changes and the fall ensues. By the way, i will assume you are a liberal as you mention my lack of understanding of the scriptures of which you have absolutely no basis to make such an assertion. I do understand the scriptures and am well aware of the context in which many misinterpretted passages were written. What bothers me, is liberals and other progressive thinkers that demonize the scriptures out of ignorance by the "wisdom" they say they profess. when you look at the scriptures both old and new testament, you see very clearly God's plan and how satan will blind people to the truth. I'm sure your a young buck who thinks he knows so much, but lacks much wisdom. Before jumping into oblivion, take a moment to stduy God's Word and see it for what it is, not what man has made it to be.

      August 4, 2011 at 3:16 pm |
    • Dude

      Roman fell because of Christianity evil curse on anything it touches.

      August 4, 2011 at 3:31 pm |
  15. flyingfish

    In honesty, one who believes, has met God through His Son, and God's Holy Spirit now resides within them making new the man, or woman; who is fulfilled by this and God's Word; and therefore stands in the midst of the whole truth with the Creator. Those who neither ask for salvation, nor accept Jesus stand outside this truth and create for themselves a palatable reality which universally explains while simultaneously relinquishing responsibility for all. In this case, behind the haze of not-yet-defined science in genetics. What if h•omo•s•exuality were purely decadence, deviance, and extreme hubris? This would mean our families, our churches, our cultures are failing...We would be the charade; so deceived and full of pretense as to be a travesty, i.e. perversion... yes, back to the point; We are fallen. (and loved and made whole through God's grace) Ask, Seek, Knock!

    August 3, 2011 at 11:53 pm |
    • kiki

      You're an idiot. Try reading more.

      August 3, 2011 at 11:58 pm |
    • asa

      hey one needs to read the Bible,draw himself close to God!And then talk.The world's going far from God,even the christians.so let not christianity perish,dear friends...

      August 4, 2011 at 4:27 am |
    • Rob from Minnesota

      1 Corinthians 1:18-31 (NIV)
      18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
      19 For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
      20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
      21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

      August 4, 2011 at 1:32 pm |
    • GodPot

      "behind the haze of not-yet-defined science in genetics. What if h•omo•s•exuality were purely decadence, deviance, and extreme hubris?"

      The only "haze" is the cloud of verbal gas moronic religionists spew from their orafices with phrases like "not-yet-defined" when refering to the constant evolution of science. Science does not make a claim and then say "Regardless of any future evidence, this is how it is, for sure, no question, and if you question us as to the validity of our claim, you are a heretic and should be stripped of your right to question anything, and maybe killed just so you can't question us in the future." That is what religion has done and continues to do. Science says "Based on repeatable experiments we believe this to be true, but are always open to the possibility that better tests and experiments may either add to our understanding or prove our original understanding to be wrong, and were fine with that, because all we care about is coming to a better understanding of the world around us."

      All available scientific evidence points in one direction and one direction only, that people are born gay. That does not mean that your Christian theory of gay's choosing to be deviant might not apply in some cases. Maybe there are people out there who are attracted to the oposite gender but say to themselves "Hey, I think i'd like to do it with someone i'm not attracted to just cause I like getting my jolly's off" but you know as well as I do that is by far the exception, not the rule.

      August 4, 2011 at 1:34 pm |
    • flyingfish

      Kiki – your abusive voice shows a closed mind, The leap of faith is about as open-minded as anyone can be. You limit yourself and others by dissin while missin the point. Get on your knees and ask with all your heart for Christ to come into your life...I dare you

      GodPot – post here the scientific proof (reputable site, doc, whatever) that says people are born gay! better yet The Gene. When you cant find it ask yourself why common opinion says so -then ask if having it so makes it easy for everyone, As you claim – no one is responsible especially the h•omos•exual.

      August 4, 2011 at 8:18 pm |
    • Answer

      Dr Qazi Rahman, study co-author and a leading scientist on human sexual orientation, explains: "This study puts cold water on any concerns that we are looking for a single 'gay gene' or a single environmental variable which could be used to 'select out' homosexuality – the factors which influence sexual orientation are complex. And we are not simply talking about homosexuality here – heterosexual behavior is also influenced by a mixture of genetic and environmental factors.

      Scientists at the Karolinska Institute studied brain scans of 90 gay and straight men and women, and found that the size of the two symmetrical halves of the brains of gay men more closely resembled those of straight women than they did straight men. In heterosexual women, the two halves of the brain are more or less the same size. In heterosexual men, the right hemisphere is slightly larger. Scans of the brains of gay men in the study, however, showed that their hemispheres were relatively symmetrical, like those of straight women, while the brains of homosexual women were asymmetrical like those of straight men. The number of nerves connecting the two sides of the brains of gay men were also more like the number in heterosexual women than in straight men.

      Ivanka Savic and Per Lindström, of the Department of Clinical Neuroscience at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden, now report that the brains of heterosexual men and homosexual women are slightly asymmetric—the right hemisphere is larger than the left—and the brains of gay men and straight women are not.

      When homosexual men smelled the odor of male sweat—more specifically, a chemical in the male hormone testosterone—their brains responded similarly to those of women. The findings suggest that brain activity and sexual orientation are linked. It also supports an opinion held by most scientists, that people are born—not bred—gay. "This is one more line of evidence that there's a biological substring for sexual orientation," said Dean Hamer, a geneticist at the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland.

      August 5, 2011 at 10:56 am |
    • LinCA

      @flyingfish

      You appear to be of the opinion that sexuality is a choice. Can you please answer a few questions for me:
      1) When did you pick yours? Just ballpark it. Was it elementary school age? Middle school? High school? Later?
      2) What caused you to make the choice that you did?
      3) Is this a choice you ever see yourself doubting? In other words, how certain are you that you made the correct choice, and why?
      4) Is there any possibility, however remote, that would you make you change your mind (this is assuming you answered "No" on #3)? If so, what could you envision that would be?
      5) What is your favorite color, and why did you choose that particular one?
      6) If someone has a different favorite color, would you try to convince him/her that he/she was wrong? If yes, why? If no, why not?
      7) Even if you still think sexuality is a choice, what makes you feel you have the right to question anybody's choices? Why?

      You demand evidence from GodPot, yet provide none of your own. Please look at the post by Answer, or, if you are still unconvinced, run a 5 minute Google search.

      If you are still not convinced, please provide scientific evidence to support your position (otherwise I have little choice but to assume it is just your biased opinion).

      August 5, 2011 at 12:10 pm |
    • GodPot

      Hmmm, no more posts on this one from flyingfish i guess. Debate settled. Well done LinCA & Answer. He likely did not change his mind on the position, since you can not reason with the unreasonable, but hopefully others can see him for what he is, just a plain old bigot.

      August 5, 2011 at 1:25 pm |
    • LinCA

      kiki was right

      August 5, 2011 at 5:25 pm |
    • flyingfish

      to "LinCA"
      Your assumption is wrong; "You appear to be of the opinion that s*exuality is a choice..." S*exuality is not a choice. It is a given. Deviance is a choice. Orientation is a choice. False assumptions like yours are a choice. Lets leave God out of the equation for a moment and stick to a more biological approach...g*enitalia are organs for reproduction (how we procreate, evolve). This is my 'evidence', which is as plain as the nose on your face, or other organs.

      God did not create Adam and Steve

      August 12, 2011 at 6:31 pm |
    • flyingfish

      2 Godpot
      A Bigot is a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion. Jesus said Love God with all your heart and secondly , your neighbor as yourself. This means you ol buddy...even if you hurl insults and degrading judgement.

      and Answers "proof" is nothing but further evidence and confirmation of Ivan Pavlov findings.

      August 12, 2011 at 6:37 pm |
    • LinCA

      @flyingfish

      You said "Your assumption is wrong; "You appear to be of the opinion that s*exuality is a choice..." S*exuality is not a choice. It is a given. Deviance is a choice. Orientation is a choice."
      Are you saying that you don't think someone chooses to be hetero or homosexual? When you say "It is a given", are you suggesting this is something some divine being caused? Are you saying that your god made everyone the way they are?

      If that is the case, then one of three things must be true:
      1) Your god is a good being who loves all of his creation and you are wrong in condemning some of them, or
      2) Your god is evil when he caused some of his creation to be hated so much by some of his followers, or
      3) You are wrong altogether and there is no god.

      You said "False assumptions like yours are a choice.".
      Since I was merely stating an observation, I wasn't assuming anything.

      You said "Lets leave God out of the equation for a moment...".
      Can we? Pretty please?

      You said "...and stick to a more biological approach...g*enitalia are organs for reproduction (how we procreate, evolve). This is my 'evidence', which is as plain as the nose on your face, or other organs.".
      Which, whether true or not, is entirely besides the point.

      You only get to decide what you do with your organs. You don't get to decide what anyone else does with theirs.

      You said "God did not create Adam and Steve"
      Correct. Odds are, there are no gods. The christian god, most certainly can't exists, so your imaginary friend didn't create anything. Adam and Steve are the product of natural evolution, just like everyone else.

      You also said (to GodPot), "A Bigot is a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.".
      It appears (and again this is my observation, not an assuption) that you are intolerant of what others do, based on your religion.

      What you do with your life is entirely your choice. What others do with theirs is entirely their choice. You don't get a vote. That includes who they love, or how they express that love. Denying anyone equal rights because of your beliefs is the textbook definition of bigotry.

      August 25, 2011 at 7:23 pm |
  16. Douglas

    In Matthew 19 Jesus defines marriage as the union of one man and one woman. There is nothing else to say.
    The argument is settled. HIV is on the rise again because of the permissiveness of a "I want it any way I can
    get it" loss of morals. We cannot permit marriage to follow this trend. There is power in the practice
    of celibacy for our gay citizens. Honor their right to live their lies in celibate bliss, free from the fear of the
    menace of HIV. Drive out fear...and end the hate. We are one human family with clear roles to play.
    Cheers, Douglas

    August 3, 2011 at 10:05 pm |
    • LOL

      “HIV is on the rise again because of the permissiveness of a "I want it any way I can”

      You just showed you’re clueless about this subject. HIV is common myth. In reality, the risk of exposure to HIV is related to a person's behavior, not their s-exual orientation. What's important to remember about HIV/AIDS is that contracting the disease can be prevented by using safe s-ex practices and by not using drugs. Douglas if you really knew what you were talking about you would know they’ve developed a cure for aids in monkeys and in three years it won’t be an issue for humans.

      .”Honor their right to live their lies in celibate bliss, free from the fear of the
      menace of HIV.”

      You first Douglas become celebate but you if we bet on you we would loose since you don’t actually know your facts.

      August 3, 2011 at 11:22 pm |
    • LinCA

      @Douglas

      You said "In Matthew 19 Jesus defines marriage as the union of one man and one woman. There is nothing else to say. The argument is settled."

      It isn't and won't be settled until there is equality for all. It won't be settled until the hate and bigotry stops.

      I couldn't fucking care less what you think your Jesus said. He has no vote in my life, and he should have no vote in the life of any rational person.

      You said "HIV is on the rise again because of the permissiveness of a "I want it any way I can
      get it" loss of morals.
      "

      I call bullshit. You should educate yourself. HIV and AIDS do not only affect gays. They are actually more common among heterosexuals than gays. It spreads just as easily among heterosexuals as it does among gays. Just because it was first identified in the gay community, doesn't make it a gay disease.

      You said "We cannot permit marriage to follow this trend."

      Wrong. We cannot permit the religious bigotry to continue to be used to discriminate against our fellow citizens.

      You said "There is power in the practice of celibacy for our gay citizens. Honor their right to live their lies in celibate bliss, free from the fear of the menace of HIV."

      Again, bullshit. If you wish to live your life in celibacy, more power to you. You don't get to tell anyone how to live their life.

      You said "Drive out fear...and end the hate. We are one human family with clear roles to play."

      You are doing nothing but fear-mongering and spreading hate. Practice what you preach and live and let live.

      August 3, 2011 at 11:26 pm |
    • J.W

      In biblical times the idea of gay marriage had probably never been introduced. That is probably why Jesus doesnt say anything about it. Because of the culture it was just assumed that marriage was between a man and a woman.

      August 3, 2011 at 11:32 pm |
  17. hippypoet

    Right, this is the truth... and it can't be argued! the catholic church has done things to people...male priests have touched and had "relations" with the people they were suppose to be there for, as in protect and teach...most of those touched were kids, male kids... have any of these priests for the religion that so many believe in, have they been put in prison? not many at all have served any time! And the pope just says he is sorry and then pays people off...this is the religious head, the dude between you and your god. So far all i see is hypocrisy hard at work...THOU SHALL NOT LIE , THOU SHALL NOT STEAL... they lie to everyone for your money, bam, two broken right there. plus while they do these things they touch YOUR kids... if the priest who is not suppose to do these things gets to and gets away with it AND still gets to go to your non-existent heaven, then why not the dude who has a real relationship with love as its center? oh thats right, cause its two guys and they are open about how they feel, and we the modern man fear openness, we fear emotions, we fear the truth...sry i said we, thats not true, i love the truth... so i guess i should say ALL RELIGIOUS MORONS FEAR everything but what there tarded "holy" books tell them! keep in mind that these are the same people that completely believe a 2000 thousand yr ago story but won't buy into the "IDEA" of global warming! completely retarded, they are all complete retards!

    LOVE WHO THE "HELL" YOU WANT! TELL YOUR NEIGHBORS TO GET OVER IT, THEN GET LOUD!

    August 3, 2011 at 8:52 pm |
  18. JUST SAYIN'

    JESUS SPENT ALL HIS TIME WITH TWELVE OTHER MEN. HE NEVER GOT MARRIED. HE HAD A SPECIAL MALE DISCIPLE WHO HE ESPECIALLY LOVED. HE STRIPPED DOWN AND WASHED HIS DISCIPLES "FEET" (WHICH IN THE ORIGINAL GREEK, MEANS GENI.TALS)

    JUST SAYIN'

    August 3, 2011 at 7:50 pm |
  19. Rob from Minnesota

    Godpot, Sorry my speeling does not meet your standard. I can not speak for the other so called Christians and their history. I only know what the Holy spirit tells me. Marriage the word is not important. But it is part of our belief. That we stand before God and make a covenant between us that only death can not break. I am sorry if this is offensive to you. You can do what ever you want in this country( aside from breaking the law). But I don't understand why marriage in a church is something you feel you have to have. Is that discrimination. If that is case then why can't I go to an all girls school? Why can't I be a professional football player? Isn't that discrimination? Sorry about the spelling since you really have a problem with that. I will try to improve on that i am not very good in that area. Thanks for pointing it out. Seriously

    August 3, 2011 at 2:44 pm |
    • LOL

      "That we stand before God and make a covenant between us that only death can not break. "

      Gay Christians deserve that same right and yes there are gay Christians attending churches all across this country.

      August 3, 2011 at 3:03 pm |
    • Rob from Minnesota

      LOL, I must apologize to you. You are right about the benefits. this is terribly wrong and I see your point. If you want your civil unions for the benefits. And that is truly what this is about? Than so be it. The only thing that matters to me is the public testimony before God. I believe in my heart( I am not speaking for anyone else). That marriage is between a man and a woman. If we lived in a different country, we would both probably be killed for both our beliefs. God bless America. I hope that they get their benefits. I believe the Lord is in control and will sort this mess out later. I hope that you ALL seek the Lord and find savation in Christ.

      August 3, 2011 at 3:23 pm |
    • LOL

      "If you want your civil unions for the benefits. And that is truly what this is about? Than so be it."

      I am not gay but my fellow Christians are and they do deserve the same rights. It's funny how when you are fighting for someone's civil rights people automatically as-sume you must be gay.

      August 3, 2011 at 3:29 pm |
    • Rob from Minnesota

      I am sorry about that I was conscientiously trying not to do that but, I made an error. I know that you are not offended but I hope you can accept my apology.
      "You are because what the bible states is wrong is male prosti-tution, ra-pe and idolatry not what we now know about gays. Time to pick up a history book so you understand the culture the time the bible was written." I also believe you are right here.
      Those are all sins. But any intamacy outside of Marriage before God is a sin. Same gender or not. And Marriage is accrding to the bible between a man and a woman. I believe that this is clear.

      August 3, 2011 at 4:19 pm |
    • LOL

      “But any intamacy outside of Marriage before God is a sin. Same gender or not. And Marriage is accrding to the bible between a man and a woman. I believe that this is clear.”

      This is where we are going to disagree. I believe God gave us science to show us that gays are born this way, ultimately his creation. Which is why when two gay men or two lesbian women want to have intimacy then they do need to become married before God, committed to a long-term relationship. The men that wrote the bible were viewing the world through straight eyes not knowing the truths we know today. Jesus also said we are to do what is right that we know in our hearts. I believe gays deserve the same rights as straights; they deserve to grow in their souls and learn the life lessons that come from having an intimate long term loving relationship. I also know in acknowledging that they are a creation from God they will feel more welcome and loved in our Church communities. To do otherwise I believe is wrong in the heart and against the teachings of love that Christ taught and died for all of us, including gay people.

      August 3, 2011 at 4:33 pm |
    • GodPot

      @Rob & LOL

      I do not care which religion accept's or doesn't accept gay's, I just want all of your religion's to get their hands out of our politics, policies and law making. We do need equality based on being a human rather than being a Catholic or Protestant, Jew or Mormon, male or female, gay or straight. Hold onto all the religious traditions and interpretations you like, just keep it at home and at church and not in our schools, our government or our workplaces. In those places, equality should be paramount. If marriage is sanctioned by government and given special status, that should be available to every adult who is able to enter into any other type of contract with a partner. LOL , I get that you are defending gay right's, but you are also putting it again in religious context which is unnecessary. Yes, it's here on the belief blog and the article is about gay's in the bible, but the discussion of marriage is a legal battle happening right now all over the states, and I feel religion should not play any part in deciding who can have the same right's as themselves.

      August 3, 2011 at 5:01 pm |
    • Carl

      There are gay Christians. None of them are living a gay lifestyle. Marriage within a Christian context is one man + one woman. Marriage can be defined many ways. It is an affront to God to define it any way other than one man + one woman. What people believe that differs from this is their problem. If people want to hate Christians and Christianity, that is their problem. We should be careful to not be hypocritical or in any other way be false and tarnish the name Christ.

      August 3, 2011 at 5:29 pm |
    • LOL

      "There are gay Christians. None of them are living a gay lifestyle."

      Yes they are living a gay lifestyle, married before God in their churches. What you don't want to hear is there are churches and Christians that support gay civil rights. It's not a sin before God.

      August 3, 2011 at 5:33 pm |
    • J.W

      It doesnt actually say in the Bible that marriage has to be between a man and a woman. It was probably referred to at that time that way because the idea of gay marriage had never even been introduced. Also, it is likely that Adam and Eve werent married but they had kids together. The Bible never said that Cain and Abel were born out of a sinful relationship.

      August 3, 2011 at 5:35 pm |
    • LOL

      Rob thank you for a respectful exchange of opinions. I respect your view point. I just don't' think blocking someone's civil rights now is up to us when we are being shown what we thought was the truth is not correct. Life is a learning experience and I think God has given us this challenge to see if we understand the true meaning of Christ's love. Christ showed he was always for the underdog and the misunderstood. My opinion comes from love and respect knowing we are still being shown truths today. I think you come from the same place. Respect tolerance, accept what you don't know and understand, accept that sometimes we get it wrong and need to realize God is not done....he has put a lesson in front of us, trust your heart. I prayed came home to a conformation that I am okay and on the right path....I hope the same for you. Peace be with you.

      August 3, 2011 at 11:05 pm |
  20. Rob from Minnesota

    LinCa, I detect some hostility in your writing. I understand your arguement. I just simply disagree. you can sit there and call me all the names you want, but I still wont comprimise my position. Tell me why is marrage so important to you. You can have all the intamacy that you want and no one will say a word to you. But Marriage is a part of our belief( that you said yourself ) you don't care about. So have you civil union. i just don't believe in my heart or in scripture that the Lord will recognize it. But, if that doesn't bother you than that is your choice. Your free will.

    August 3, 2011 at 1:22 pm |
    • GodPot

      "Tell me why is marrage so important to you. You can have all the intamacy that you want and no one will say a word to you. But Marriage is a part of our belief"

      1. Why do YOU care so much about the word "marrage"? You can't even spell it.
      2. If marriage is part of your belief and religion, why are people of other religion's allowed to get "married"? Shouldn't you be protesting that Muslim's and Hindu's are getting "married"? They aren't Christian, but you have no problem sharing "your" word with them.
      3. Christian's do not own marriage. They do not own "good" or "righteous" or "moral" or "decent".
      4. Christians do own the crusades, the inquisition, the witch burnings, the "conversion" of the native american's and long lists of pedophile priests along with many more violent and inhumane period's of so called "righteous" wars in their history.
      5. Christians almost never own up to any of the things they do own, and often use the "bad apple" defense.

      August 3, 2011 at 2:13 pm |
    • LOL

      Tell me why is marrage so important to you. You can have all the intamacy that you want and no one will say a word to you. But Marriage is a part of our belief( that you said yourself ) you don't care about.”

      That is where you are WRONG – marriage is part of our society, laws, plus it comes with benefits to the married couple. Gays deserve those same civil rights.

      August 3, 2011 at 2:34 pm |
    • LOL

      In case you don't know these are the benefits you get when you're legally married.

      Tax Benefits
      -–Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.
      -–Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.

      Estate Planning Benefits
      -–Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.
      -–Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
      -–Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
      -–Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse - that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.

      Government Benefits
      -–Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
      -–Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
      -–Receiving public as-sistance benefits.
      -–Employment Benefits
      -–Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
      -–Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
      -–Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
      -–Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.

      Medical Benefits
      -–Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
      -–Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.

      Death Benefits
      -–Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
      -–Making burial or other final arrangements.

      Family Benefits
      -–Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
      -–Applying for joint foster care rights.
      -–Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
      -–Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.

      Housing Benefits
      -–Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."
      -–Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.

      Consumer Benefits
      -–Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.
      -–Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
      -–Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.
      -–Other Legal Benefits and Protections
      -–Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
      -–Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
      -–Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
      -–Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
      -–Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
      -–Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.

      August 3, 2011 at 2:41 pm |
    • LinCA

      @Rob from Minnesota

      You said "LinCa, I detect some hostility in your writing. I understand your arguement. I just simply disagree. you can sit there and call me all the names you want, but I still wont comprimise my position."

      I'm guessing that you are replying to my post on August 3, 2011 at 10:54 am, in reply to yours. In that post I said "Anyone who tries to restrict same sex marriage based on their religion, is a bigot.". So, I'm guessing that you object to me calling those that are intolerant based on their religion "bigots".

      Let's take a look the term "bigot".

      From The Free Dictionary
      "big·ot (bgt)
      n.
      One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
      "
      See: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bigot

      Your position seems to fit the description to a T. If you are intolerant based on your religion, you are a bigot.

      I'm not asking you to change your mind or your position on homosexuality. You are free to hate whomever you wish. You are free to hate gays just as much as you are free to hate blacks or whites or mexicans or muslims or any other group. When you act on that hate, is when we've got issues.

      You said "Tell me why is marrage so important to you."

      It's a civil right. It should be available to everyone. For some details, see LOL's post above.

      You said "You can have all the intamacy that you want and no one will say a word to you."

      If that were true, that would be a start. But I sincerely doubt that even you really believe that statement, though. The intolerance shown towards gays in general, paints a different picture.

      You said "But Marriage is a part of our belief( that you said yourself ) you don't care about."

      It isn't exclusively part of your religion. The marriage at issue here is a contract between two consenting adults, sometimes performed in and by a religious organization. Christianity doesn't own the term.

      You said "So have you civil union."

      How about we call your marriage a "religious union" from now on? It won't provide any of the State and Federal benefits. It won't apply from state to state, or from country to country.

      Every church is still free to exclude anyone they don't like from their form of marriage. Your right to discriminate within your religious organization isn't restricted in any way.

      You said "i just don't believe in my heart or in scripture that the Lord will recognize it."

      I couldn't fucking care less if your imaginary friend approves of anything. It's your friend, not mine. If you value its opinion, you should act accordingly. Keep it out of my life.

      You said "But, if that doesn't bother you than that is your choice. Your free will."

      Whatever you think your imaginary friend thinks doesn't bother me in the least. What bothers me is that you seem to feel justified in imposing those delusions on everyone else.

      So yes, I am hostile to the religious intrusion into my life. If you keep your nonsense out of my and everyone else's life, there won't be any hostility.

      August 3, 2011 at 5:51 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.