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My Take: Bible condemns a lot, so why focus on homosexuality?
June 21st, 2011
10:10 AM ET

My Take: Bible condemns a lot, so why focus on homosexuality?

Editor's Note: Jonathan Dudley is the author of Broken Words: The Abuse of Science and Faith in American Politics.

By Jonathan Dudley, Special to CNN

Growing up in the evangelical community, I learned the Bible’s stance on homosexuality is clear-cut. God condemns it, I was taught, and those who disagree just haven’t read their Bibles closely enough.

Having recently graduated from Yale Divinity School, I can say that my childhood community’s approach to gay rights—though well intentioned—is riddled with self-serving double standards.

I don’t doubt that the one New Testament author who wrote on the subject of male-male intercourse thought it a sin. In Romans 1, the only passage in the Bible where a reason is explicitly given for opposing same-sex relations, the Apostle Paul calls them “unnatural.”

Problem is, Paul’s only other moral argument from nature is the following: “Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is degrading to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory?” (1 Corinthians 11:14-15).

Few Christians would answer that question with a “yes.”

In short, Paul objects to two things as unnatural: one is male-male sex and the other is long hair on men and short hair on women. The community opposed to gay marriage takes one condemnation as timeless and universal and the other as culturally relative.

I also don’t doubt that those who advocate gay marriage are advocating a revision of the Christian tradition.

But the community opposed to gay marriage has itself revised the Christian tradition in a host of ways. For the first 1500 years of Christianity, for example, marriage was deemed morally inferior to celibacy. When a theologian named Jovinian challenged that hierarchy in 390 A.D. — merely by suggesting that marriage and celibacy might be equally worthwhile endeavors — he was deemed a heretic and excommunicated from the church.

How does that sit with “family values” activism today?

Yale New Testament professor Dale B. Martin has noted that today’s "pro-family" activism, despite its pretense to be representing traditional Christian values, would have been considered “heresy” for most of the church’s history.

The community opposed to gay marriage has also departed from the Christian tradition on another issue at the heart of its social agenda: abortion.

Unbeknownst to most lay Christians, the vast majority of Christian theologians and saints throughout history have not believed life begins at conception.

Although he admitted some uncertainty on the matter, the hugely influential 4th and 5th century Christian thinker Saint Augustine wrote, “it could not be said that there was a living soul in [a] body” if it is “not yet endowed with senses.”

Thomas Aquinas, a Catholic saint and a giant of mediaeval theology, argued: “before the body has organs in any way whatever, it cannot be receptive of the soul.”

American evangelicals, meanwhile, widely opposed the idea that life begins at conception until the 1970s, with some even advocating looser abortion laws based on their reading of the Bible before then.

It won’t do to oppose gay marriage because it’s not traditional while advocating other positions that are not traditional.

And then there’s the topic of divorce. Although there is only one uncontested reference to same-sex relations in the New Testament, divorce is condemned throughout, both by Jesus and Paul. To quote Jesus from the Gospel of Mark: “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery.”

A possible exception is made only for unfaithfulness.

The community most opposed to gay marriage usually reads these condemnations very leniently. A 2007 issue of Christianity Today, for example, featured a story on its cover about divorce that concluded that Christians should permit divorce for “adultery,” “emotional and physical neglect” and “abandonment and abuse.”

The author emphasizes how impractical it would be to apply a strict interpretation of Jesus on this matter: “It is difficult to believe the Bible can be as impractical as this interpretation implies.”

Indeed it is.

On the other hand, it’s not at all difficult for a community of Christian leaders, who are almost exclusively white, heterosexual men, to advocate interpretations that can be very impractical for a historically oppressed minority to which they do not belong – homosexuals.

Whether the topic is hair length, celibacy, when life begins, or divorce, time and again, the leaders most opposed to gay marriage have demonstrated an incredible willingness to consider nuances and complicating considerations when their own interests are at stake.

Since graduating from seminary, I no longer identify with the evangelical community of my youth. The community gave me many fond memories and sound values but it also taught me to take the very human perspectives of its leaders and attribute them to God.

So let’s stop the charade and be honest.

Opponents of gay marriage aren’t defending the Bible’s values. They’re using the Bible to defend their own.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Jonathan Dudley.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Bible • Christianity • Homosexuality • Opinion

soundoff (6,474 Responses)
  1. Analyzer

    @ Observer

    You quoted Douglas:

    "Try as they might, two men cannot proceate and two women cannot procreate. I rest my case."

    LOL! You have "rested" your "case" on something that is TOTALLY IRRELEVENT. Gays and lesbians can reproduce. Get a basic beginners book on biology. Try to find something SIGNIFICANT to talk about next time.

    Kindly put that biology book back inside your pocket and take lil time to proof read the statement you quoted from Douglas.

    Let me give you a clue, Douglas said: "Two Men" and "Two Women". Let me repeat to you on his behalf, TWO men and TWO women!

    If you don't get it yet, let me give you a sort of analogy that may guide you back to your senses:

    TWO SWORDS are for fencing while TWO CYMBALS are for producing sounds especially on (rock) concerts in harmony with drums and electric guitars.

    There you go again pal, Have I told you before that try an.alyzing next time rather than mere observing, Haven't I? You should have listened to me.

    November 14, 2011 at 10:35 am |
    • Ummmm

      "Let me give you a clue, Douglas said: "Two Men" and "Two Women". Let me repeat to you on his behalf, TWO men and TWO women!"

      Ummmmm....my lesbians and gay friends have all had their own babies....Huh...it worked just fine for them. LMAO! Come on now...think about it....make that pee brain of yours work for once. LOL!

      November 14, 2011 at 11:04 am |
  2. Douglas

    Castrate Sandusky. He engaged in forbidden acts contrary to biblical instruction.
    Now you see the pain, heartache and suffering caused by the disobedience that I have been
    teaching about in this forum. The scourge of fornication must end now!

    November 11, 2011 at 11:20 pm |
    • Ok'yDok'y

      "He engaged in forbidden acts contrary to biblical instruction."

      Yo moron no where in the bible does your god condemn the saved loving long term partnership of a gay couple. The experts have shown that being gay is a normal part of sexuality, it's not a mental illness, it's not a choice. They deserve the same happiness and intimacy that comes from having loving relationships. Your post does not come from a place of love and understanding – it comes from the darkness of prejudice.

      November 14, 2011 at 8:57 am |
    • TruthPrevails

      "Castrate Sandusky. He engaged in forbidden acts contrary to biblical instruction."

      First of all, the buybull is just that-bull!!! Second, castrate? How very christian of you-NOT!!! This man will be dealt with in a court of law, laws that rule the land not laws set out in a book of fairy tales. I don't have tolerance for what the man did but when you spew christian babble in with it, you defeat the purpose of arresting him. What he did was the equivalent of ra.pe...the child involved had no say in the matter and whether or not Sandusky is gay makes no difference...would you have said the same bs if it was a female he had done this to?
      Btw: being ho.mo.se.xual is not a crime or an act of sin (sin only exists in the buybull and thus has no meaning in the real world).
      This article is not about his se.xuality though, it is bout him harming an innocent child.

      "Now you see the pain, heartache and suffering caused by the disobedience that I have been
      teaching about in this forum"

      You have been teaching nothing you idiot, unless of course you count pseudo knowledge as teaching. You come across bigoted and ignorant of the true facts. Who did he disobey? Your god? You do realize that your god committed a great number of crimes himself. The only disobedience this man has committed is in regards to the laws of the land and for that he will pay.

      On a final note, get your head out of that book of fables before it destroys your sad life further.

      November 14, 2011 at 9:07 am |
    • Facts Reveal

      "This article is not about his se.xuality though, it is bout him harming an innocent child."

      You're not insinuating that Sadusky committed the crime out of being bored, are you?

      November 14, 2011 at 9:46 am |
  3. Christian

    I'm sorry but we all sin (fall short of God's Word). The difference is who feels justified in their sin. I don't go and eat shell fish and say "I deserve this for my happiness". No,it is born out of weakness and imperfection. God has called us to be perfect just as He is perfect and realizing we are not and we shouldn't justify ourselves but ask forgiveness. I agree with everything the bible says when put into proper context. Yes, women are the weaker vessel. Yes, slavery did exist for those who didn't pay their debts and had to work them off. And yes marriage is inferior to singleness because you can do more for God being single than you can with a husband and three kids.

    November 10, 2011 at 1:33 pm |
    • Douglas

      Christian,

      Excellent! Fornication has a deadly consequence. Perhaps some here will hear.
      Best, Douglas

      November 11, 2011 at 9:22 pm |
    • TruthPrevails

      Sorry, non-believers don't sin...we simply make mistakes. Sin a biblical word only used by christards like you!

      November 14, 2011 at 9:22 am |
  4. Douglas

    Gay, abstinent and loving it! A battle cry for hope!
    There is healing power and salvation for our GLBTQ neighbors
    who remain true to their calling to remain abstinent.
    Best, Douglas

    November 10, 2011 at 2:23 am |
    • tallulah13

      Celibacy is your own choice, Doug, but it is an unfair choice placed upon you by a religion that has no proof of any god. There is nothing wrong with being in a relationship with the person you love. The wrong is telling people that their relationships are evil, based on the 2000 year old writings of unknown humans.

      November 10, 2011 at 2:34 am |
    • Ok'yDok'y

      Wow – keep showing your stupidity over, over and over again....now you're just a moron.

      The experts have shown that being gay is a normal part of sexuality, it's not a mental illness, it's not a choice. The bible does not condemn the saved loving partnership of gay people; there is NO reason for them to be celibate. They deserve the same happiness and intimacy that comes from having loving relationships. Your post does not come from a place of love and understanding – it comes from the darkness of prejudice.

      November 10, 2011 at 8:37 am |
  5. Jon F

    Even in the old testament it uses the word abomination to describe a male-male relationship. The same word used to describe when ones eats of any of the unclean animals. I'm sure every one of those so called Christians have done that. Its all hypocrisy. The bible will say anything they want it too. Its all about there own emotions and prejudices. Sad world we live in having to share it with people that run their sense of discourse using faith.

    November 9, 2011 at 5:38 pm |
    • cindy

      Even in the old testament it uses the word abomination to describe a male-male relationship. The same word used to describe when ones eats of any of the unclean animals. I'm sure every one of those so called Christians have done that. Its all hypocrisy. The bible will say anything they want it too. Its all about there own emotions and prejudices. Sad world we live in having to share it with people that run their sense of discourse using faith. -Your being too broad, I as a Christian always open myself to science and the bible But I only follow what's in the bible. Not everyone picks and chooses parts of the bible to live by it's a process. You may not know everything one day you learn it little by little. The only difference is that some don't acknowledge that because either they're too ignorant or they just don't take the time to notice. Yes there are some who just down right are Hippocrates but you shouldn't involve the rest of the word based on only your view and your experiences. 🙂

      November 10, 2011 at 7:33 pm |
  6. John S

    It has always come down to the 3? lines of the good faith clause, which holds true regardless of religion

    November 6, 2011 at 10:21 am |
  7. Douglas

    Celib@cy for GLBTQ youth is helping them to enjoy long, healthy life spans.
    Saying no to fornication is helping young Christians to remain obedient to Biblical instruction.
    Start a support group for celib@te GLBTQ youth and abstinent straight youth at your place of worship.
    Movie nights, bowling outings, community volunter projects and career mentoring can build partnerships that last a lifetime with our
    GLBTQ and straight youth.
    Best, Douglas

    November 4, 2011 at 8:52 pm |
    • Ok'yDok'y

      Wow – keep showing your stupidity over and over again.

      The experts have shown that being gay is a normal part of sexuality, it's not a mental illness, it's not a choice. The bible does not condemn the saved loving partnership of gay people; there is NO reason for them to be celibate. They deserve the same happiness and intimacy that comes from having loving relationships. Your post does not come from a place of love and understanding – it comes from the darkness of prejudice.

      November 7, 2011 at 10:08 am |
  8. Erin

    Oh the hypocrisy! Lets hate on gays because they are different, oh lets hate on christians because they are different. There is a very important change between old testiment and new testiment. Even though there is validity to the rules in the old testiment, which God gave to protect us, rather than to hinder us. Stop trying to vilify each other when the truth is, everyone deserves to go to hell for the sins they have commited but Jesus died for ALL men and women whether or not they choose to accept his free gift of salvation.

    Remember, at the time when the bible was writen slavery wasn't shackling people and whipping them, the bible clearly states that slave "owners" should never beat their slaves and at the time and after six years of service could choose to leave, or stay and become a bond servant.
    Also at the time the bible was writen it was actually quite controversial because of how many rights it seemed to give women, because in old testiment times women were treated like cattle, they were stoned for adultery and if rapped should be married to that man because they were ruined and the man must pay her father.

    Obviously times have changed since biblical times and you are all intellegent enough to understand that difference.

    Stop twisting the text to prove your own thoughts OR to try and discredit it.

    November 2, 2011 at 6:30 pm |
    • Douglas

      There is power and salvation for gays and lesbians who can commit to celib@te lives. There is hope
      rising from the depths of sin. Fornication and filth have a toll taker. Satan is gleeful at the prospect of
      consuming unsuspecting gays and lesbians who fornicate and straights who fornicate and should know better.
      Support celib@te gays and lesbians and abstinent until marriage straights. Drive out fear and yours will be the
      victory over Satan and his minions!
      Best, Douglas

      November 3, 2011 at 7:16 am |
    • Observer

      Douglas,

      All you do is spread HYPOCRISY. When you tell heteros about the sins of fornication and advocate celibacy for them, ONLY THEN will you have credibility.

      November 3, 2011 at 11:55 am |
    • Ok'yDok'y

      "There is power and salvation for gays and lesbians who can commit to celib@te lives"

      You and your stupidity keep posting this same garbage. The experts have shown that being gay is a normal part of sexuality, it's not a mental illness, it's not a choice. The bible does not condemn the saved loving partnership of gay people; there is NO reason for them to be celibate. They deserve the same happiness and intimacy that comes from having loving relationships. Your post does not come from a place of love and understanding – it comes from the darkness of prejudice.

      November 3, 2011 at 11:58 am |
  9. Jackson Stacey

    I look forward to the day when identifying as an evangelical Christian is a sign of ignorance and moral failure....oh wait, it's already here.

    November 1, 2011 at 6:41 pm |
  10. Douglas

    Celib@te Gay/Lesbian youth are on the move! They are rejecting sin and STDs for salvation along with their straight counterparts who have pledged to not fornicate. It is a new day. A beacon of hope shines brightly. STDs and sin...take a hike!
    Best, Douglas

    October 26, 2011 at 9:44 pm |
    • Jackson Stacey

      No they aren't. Every poll in the country shows the the younger generation favors gay marriage more than the older one.

      October 27, 2011 at 9:00 pm |
    • Mr Chihuahua

      I have a brightly shining beacon of desire for you to walk face-first into a spinning airplane propellor.

      October 27, 2011 at 9:15 pm |
    • Ok'yDok'y

      You and your stupidity keep posting this same garbage. The experts have shown that being gay is a normal part of sexuality, it's not a mental illness, it's not a choice. The bible does not condemn the saved loving partnership of gay people; there is NO reason for them to be celibate. They deserve the same happiness and intimacy that comes from having loving relationships. Your post does not come from a place of love and understanding – it comes from the darkness of prejudice.

      October 28, 2011 at 2:22 pm |
  11. DC

    Jon Dudley, you are an idiot. The penal code in the State of California condemns a lot, so why focus on speeding or smoking or drinking or yelling fire in a crowded theater? That's just my behavior, my choice, right? WRONG! There are consequences not only to you but others, direct and indirect, when you break the law!

    October 26, 2011 at 3:15 am |
    • Jackson Stacey

      You know that any counterargument that's opening salvo is "you're an idiot" can't be very sophisticated. You clearly didn't even understand the author's argument.

      October 27, 2011 at 10:29 pm |
  12. Douglas

    Gay "marriage" is not normal. It is completely at crosspurposes with the physiological creation of man and woman. I challenged
    the pro gay marrriage bloggers here to prove that two men or two women could produce offspring to sustain life on their own and of course none of them can answer affirmatively because they know that is where their agument for gay "marriage" is exposed as a fraud. There is a price to be paid for disobedience. As Paul stated in Romans regarding those given over to a "reprobate mind", a decision has to be made to follow Go'd word or wallow in fornication and forbidden acts. The choice is yours. No one's arm is twisted by God. It is by our own free will that we are born again or condemn ourselves to eternal damnation.
    Best, Douglas

    October 22, 2011 at 5:51 pm |
    • Observer

      "the pro gay marrriage bloggers here to prove that two men or two women could produce offspring to sustain life on their own and of course none of them can answer affirmatively"

      Two gay men and two gay women could populate the earth as well as Adam and Eve did. Get an education. Read a book like "Biology For Dummies". Your ignorance and avoidance of reality should be embarassing for you.

      October 22, 2011 at 11:00 pm |
    • Duh

      "It is completely at crosspurposes with the physiological creation of man and woman."

      LOL! The experts in psychology disagree with you. LOL! Time to educate yourself, your ignorance is classic of christians.

      October 23, 2011 at 1:39 pm |
    • Duh

      "As Paul stated in Romans regarding those given over to a "reprobate mind""

      LOL! Pickup a history book moron and learn about their culture, it is not related to how we now understand gays and lesbians. LOL!

      October 23, 2011 at 1:41 pm |
    • Ok'yDok'y

      Your god is one sick illusion of your mind. So you are saying that a person who is born gay will then be turned around and condemned by the very thing that created them. Now that is one sick god. A person chooses to be gay or lesbian has been discredited by every major professional medical organization, starting with the American Psychological Association and the American Medical Association. An individual’s orientation is no more a choice than the color of his skin or whether he is left-handed, and too many people have been hurt because of failed attempts to change the way they were born.

      October 23, 2011 at 2:38 pm |
  13. Marvin

    @Observer

    Isn't it funny how some people just google " Contradictory Bible text" or go to bible counter arguments and copy and paste and think they can prove they "read" the bible and try to make an argument?

    And isn't it funny how you point out "inferiority" in the bible regarding women yet ignore it in the workplace, your house, places you go and call it "the way it is?" I mean really, where is the woman president? Hmmm i wonder why there hasn't been one.

    October 16, 2011 at 2:12 am |
    • Observer

      Marvin,

      Isn't it funny how many Christians commit the "abomination" of eating shellfish but trash gays for their "abomination"?

      Isn't it funny how many Christains commit the Ten Commandment sin of adultery while trashing an "abomination"?

      Isn't it funny how FEW Christians actually believe in: – Matthew 7:12 “Treat others as you want them to treat you. This is what the Law and the Prophets are all about.”?

      Isn't it funny?

      October 17, 2011 at 12:40 am |
    • Duh

      "go to bible counter arguments and copy and paste and think they can prove they "read" the bible and try to make an argument?"

      LMAO! You do know there are christians posting on this blog that are copying and pasting scriptures from bible study sites that they have looked up. Yes, christians on here have admitted to it, doesn't prove they actually know their bible. Hey more hypocrisy who knew. LOL!

      October 17, 2011 at 8:44 am |
    • Douglas

      Gay, celib@te and loving it! This is a cry of hope from GLBTQ Christians eager to shun forbidden acts and
      take their place with the saints.The fruits of fornication offered by Satan are tempting, but today's modern
      GLBTQ Christians know better. They know of the pain, heartache and suffering associated with behaviors
      inconsistent with biblical instruction. Like their straight counterparts who battle against fornication, GLBTQ Christians
      have a unique calling. They have the opportunity to lead by example and reject Satan and his minions working tirelessly to destroy
      straight and gay souls. Together we can succeed!
      Best, Douglas

      October 18, 2011 at 2:03 am |
    • tallulah13

      I feel very sorry for you Douglas. Honestly. It's not about the physical act at all. It's because you have rejected your own nature for the sake of a promise that has no proof to back it up. There is nothing wrong with falling in love and being in a relationship with that person. There is nothing evil about it, as long as both parties are consenting adults. There is more proof that hom.o.se.xuality is innate than there is proof for any god, yet you would rather believe that your orientation is a curse, and worse, try to tell others that their love is a sin. That is a deeply sad thing.

      October 18, 2011 at 2:22 am |
    • Duh

      "They have the opportunity to lead by example and reject Satan and his minions working tirelessly to destroy
      straight and gay souls."

      LMAO! Being gay isn't evil moron, it's a normal part of human sexuality. What is a great example of satan is prejudiced bigoted people like you spreading unnecessary hate. Loving someone, having a consensual committed relationship is not evil.

      October 18, 2011 at 1:31 pm |
    • Marvin

      Isn't it funny all that you got from a blog.

      @Duh There is a difference between copying a scripture vs copying an argument.

      Old Testament = Jews
      New Testament = Christians

      Learn the difference.

      Somehow those websites you posted about Observer always seem to go back to the old testament and refuse to look at the new one at all, yet use the new testament, LIKE YOU DID ERRONEOUSLY regarding faith being the only thing needed for salvation, to "support" your argument. If you don't believe in the bible then don't even try using it as a defense because you will find yourself embarrassed

      and yes it is VERY funny that you don't deny anything i said.

      October 20, 2011 at 4:02 pm |
    • Observer

      Marvin,
      "LIKE YOU DID ERRONEOUSLY regarding faith being the only thing needed for salvation, to "support" your argument." WRONG.

      So "whosoever believeth in him will have eternal life" doesn't mean that? Where are the asterisks that say "except for all the other reasons".

      The inferiority of women is from the New Testament. Read it. Read what Paul said.
      So the Old Testament only applies to Jews? So Christians shouldn't waste their time talking about Adam and Eve and the Ten Comandments? Yes or no?

      Do you really read the Bible at all? Are the Ten Commandments irrelevent except to Jews?

      October 20, 2011 at 9:04 pm |
  14. Marvin

    @Observer

    John 3: 20,21:

    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    Would you like to try again?

    October 16, 2011 at 2:05 am |
    • Observer

      Marvin,
      "Would you like to try again?"

      Try what again? You offered zero rebuttal to my statements. Are you trying to pretend that not having a woman president justifies the Bible's support of the inferiority of women?

      Everyone picks and chooses what they want from the Bible and ignor the rest. That's why so many hypocritical Christians dig out "abominations" for gays and ignor Christians who commit adultery by remarring. Why doesn't the Golden Rule apply to treatments of gays? Answer: hypocrisy.

      October 16, 2011 at 11:27 pm |
    • Marvin

      How funny of you not to answer the post. You provided a scripture regarding faith being the only thing needed for salvation and you go off topic/off post and go to the other post (which you didn't answer ) and instead post an answer on this post.

      You are wrong regarding faith being the only thing needed, because only a few scriptures down says otherwise. Maybe just maybe if you READ what you are posting you would see the rebuttal instead of posting answers all over the place.

      October 20, 2011 at 4:05 pm |
    • Duh

      "You are wrong regarding faith being the only thing needed, because only a few scriptures down says otherwise. Maybe just maybe if you READ what you are posting you would see the rebuttal instead of posting answers all over the place."

      The point is you will use snippets of scriptures to justify your beliefs and prejudices. Do you condemn others in your community for all the other sins they do that you are aware of? If not then you are a hypocrite, that's the point.

      October 20, 2011 at 4:11 pm |
    • Observer

      Marvin,
      All of this must be missing from your copy of the Bible:

      – John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him
      should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
      – John 3:18 “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,
      because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
      – John 3:36 “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not
      see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
      – John 5:24 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath
      everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
      – John 6:40 “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on
      him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
      – John 6:47 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.”
      – Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

      So WHERE are all the asterisks saying "this is just ONE OF MANY REQUIREMENTS for eternal life"?

      Why not read the ENTIRE Bible? It claims that the Old Testament is about GOD, just like the New Testament.

      October 20, 2011 at 9:12 pm |
  15. Douglas

    Duh,
    Insulting me doesn't change the material facts of the discussion. God created man and woman to come together
    and raise families. The APA research is flawed and is skewed by bum's rush attacks on psychiatrists who have presented research that nullfies the claims of gay s*x as normative. Try as they might, two men cannot proceate and two women cannot procreate. I rest my case.
    Best, Douglas

    October 13, 2011 at 1:36 am |
    • tallulah13

      There is more proof that being gay is innate than there is proof that any god ever existed.

      October 13, 2011 at 1:38 am |
    • fred

      Tallulah13
      Although orientation is in the DNA what you chose to do with you orientation is not. That is a matter of choice. God is well aware of the impact orientation has on your decision making skills and does not this against you. What you are held to account on is accepting or rejecting God. That is a choice. Even in that case God understands why your reject Him. Some reject God because of a trama in their life, others simple pride, and I am sure there are many more reasons. I rejected God myse.lf because of poor information and because I was very wrapped up in myself and my desires. God's love broke through all of that and restored my life. I only know God exists because of what He did for me and I wish everyone the same wonderful blessings.

      October 13, 2011 at 1:46 am |
    • tallulah13

      Fred, there is no proof of god. None. I don't believe in fairy tales. I believe in fact, and the fact is, there is more evidence that being gay is innate than their is evidence of any god.

      October 13, 2011 at 1:55 am |
    • Duh

      "The APA research is flawed and is skewed by bum's rush attacks on psychiatrists who have presented research that nullfies the claims of gay s*x as normative. "

      LMAO! Thanks for proving you're a moron. The APA is one of the world's largest organizations made up of 154,000 experts. LOL! You're WRONG, but you will continue to spew your nonsense because you don't want to look in the mirror to recognize your a bigoted prejudice person. Keep making excuses for your pathetic views but stop contributing to the hate and lies about gays and lesbian. Wow what a moron.

      October 13, 2011 at 1:32 pm |
    • Observer

      Douglas,

      The APA is composed of tens of thousands of professional in their area.

      Please list all of your educational background in psychiatry and years of experience as a professional to show that you know ANYTHING at all compared to them. LOL!

      October 15, 2011 at 10:06 pm |
    • Observer

      Douglas,
      "Try as they might, two men cannot proceate and two women cannot procreate. I rest my case."

      LOL! You have "rested" your "case" on something that is TOTALLY IRRELEVENT. Gays and lesbians can reproduce. Get a basic beginners book on biology. Try to find something SIGNIFICANT to talk about next time.

      October 15, 2011 at 10:26 pm |
    • Analyzer

      @Observer

      Kindly put that biology book back inside your pocket and take lil time to proof read the statement you quoted from Douglas.

      Let me give you a clue, Douglas said: "Two Men" and "Two Women". Let me repeat to you on his behalf, TWO men and TWO women!

      If you don't get it yet, let me give you a sort of analogy that may guide you back to your senses:

      TWO SWORDS are for fencing while TWO CYMBALS are for producing sounds especially on (rock) concerts in harmony with drums and electric guitars.

      There you go again pal, Have I told you before that try an.alyzing next time rather than mere observing, Haven't I? You should have listened to me.

      November 14, 2011 at 10:28 am |
  16. Douglas

    GLBTQ&Q abstinence is pivotal to redemption from sin. Twisting the Bible to justify sin keeps Satan content and souls adrift.
    If you need help, find a support group that is equipped to fight the fight with you every step of the way.
    Best, Douglas

    October 10, 2011 at 11:08 pm |
    • Jason

      Yes, those darn Christians twisting the Bible to allow long hair, slavery, and anything other that female subordination.

      October 11, 2011 at 1:09 am |
    • DUH

      "If you need help, find a support group that is equipped to fight the fight with you every step of the way."

      Hey moron it's the APA has stated that trying to change a person's orientation is dangerous to their well being and all the reports of successful attempts are bogus. It might help if you actually knew what you were talking about before trying to give such destructive advice. What an idiot.

      October 12, 2011 at 4:50 pm |
  17. tonelok

    @Jim
    You said that American's are "wealthy, educated, and respected"? Educated? Not so much. Respected? Not at all. Lol.
    @Jim again...
    I believe the whole point of the article, as referenced in the last line, is that the Bible has been around and intererrupted for millenia and because of these distortions it is easy for those in power to distort the words of the bible for self-serving purposes.
    .
    For example, the bible uses the term "abomination" to describe many things. Things like ho mo se xu ality, wearing wool and other furs at the same time, planting different crops in the same row. But the actual definition is different today than it was then. Does our modern term of "extreme disgust and loathing toward" really fit for someone who sows 2 crops in the same row? The definition at the time the bible was presided over was "Not customary". Ho mo se xu ality was not customary in that time.
    .
    And if you really want to break down why it was even mentioned in the bible, two reasons. It was to differentiate the religion from Greek mythology and pagan's where, Greek in particular, man on man was common. Also, in a time when life was never guarenteed and was a struggle, it was seen as bad for any man to waste his 'seed' for anything but procreation. Same reason the church sees mast ur bation as a sin.
    .
    Anyway, people use the malleability of the bible to bend to their needs. Knowledge is Power :]

    October 10, 2011 at 11:13 am |
  18. Douglas

    There is redemptive power in Celib*cy. It is the only logical solution to the question of GLBTQ&Q marriage.
    BEst, Douglas

    October 7, 2011 at 1:05 am |
    • Jason

      There is also redemptive power in ignoring the pr/ejudiced nonsense spewed by conservative Christians.

      October 7, 2011 at 7:22 am |
    • Jim

      @Jason,
      Clearly you are incapable of taking your own advice.

      October 7, 2011 at 9:26 am |
    • Observer

      The only logical solution to gay marriage is gay marriage.

      John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
      John 3:18 “He that believeth on him is not condemned"

      As those and other passages state, all you really need is to believe and you will have everlasting life. The gay issue has no more significance than Christians who commit adultery by remarrying. If Christians can ignor their Ten Commandment "sin", then gays can ignor their "abomination" (like eating shellfish and using incense, etc.) .

      October 7, 2011 at 12:35 pm |
    • Really

      "then gays can ignor their "abomination""

      Actually adultery is also an abomination but many christians got around that sin but will still not support gay rights. I believe that is such a great example of hypocrisy. 😉

      October 7, 2011 at 4:50 pm |
  19. Jim

    That statement is at its very core false. It is easy to look at our world and say, they are focusing on this or on that, and in many cases that would be right. The danger lies in applying that to all Christians. Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites. They were wealthy, educated, and respected, much like many Americans are today. That's why Jesus spoke of the difficulties (and indeed impossibility) of these type of people getting into heaven (but what is impossible for man is possible for God). Turns out, we have a lot in common with the Pharisees and there is a real danger, especially for American Christians to fall into that trap. In truth though, the issue of ho mo se xu ality runs far deeper than prejudice. It raises the question of the family and of defending scripture. I don't know about the Christians you know, but defending Christlike values is of the utmost importance to me and many Christians I know, and not just this issue, but the issue of greed, hate, injustice, overall selfishness, etc. Again, with regard to slavery and equality, take a look at my previous post.

    October 6, 2011 at 10:28 am |
    • Observer

      The Bible is full of commands that show that women are considered inferior to men. For instance, when any man wanted to marry a virgin woman, all had to do was to r-pe her and she would have to marry him. There can't be any question about women being less important in the Bible.

      Slavery is another clear issue. The Bible says such things as that you can beat your slaves as long as they don't die. No one can interpret statements like that as anything other than approving slavery as long as you don't kill them.

      The big issue here is hypocrisy. Jesus NEVER condemned h0mos-xuality, but he had plenty to say about hetero s-x and much of it was bad. He stated that remarrying was adultery unless the prior spouse had already commited adultery. Funny, but you can hear plenty of Christians trash gays, but you never hear them trash their fellow Christians for ongoing adultery. You also never hear them say that couples in an abusive marriage must stay together as long as they both are faithful.

      There are FAR FAR MORE Christians adulterers than there are total number of gays, but the fact that you never hear Christians trash their fellow Christians for that just indicates the depth of the hypocrisy. Just pick and choose the sins you agree with and ignor the rest.

      October 6, 2011 at 11:17 am |
    • Duh

      "raises the question of the family and of defending scripture. I don't know about the Christians you know, but defending Christlike values "

      So how many obese people do you have in your church, since gluttony is a sin. How many divorced adulterers are living in sin. How many walk past the homeless who are holding a sign asking for help but they do nothing. The hypocrisy is in the fact Christians are nothing like their Christ. The World Organizations have state that being gay is normal, that the children raised by them are just as happy and well balanced as children raised by straight couples, they have also said trying to change a gay person is dangerous and can't be done. The bible was written 2000 years ago, they knew nothing about being gay as we know it and understand it today. The few scriptures Christians use to condemn gays can be disputed in those interpretations.

      October 6, 2011 at 11:29 am |
  20. Jim

    @Observer
    Exactly! Paul also argued against the necessity of circu mci sion as a symbol of being a Christian (he said Christians themselves are the new circ umci sion) because it wasn't a common practice with gentiles. Does that mean circ umci sion is wrong? No. Does it mean being un circu mcised is wrong. No. Slavery is a non-issue, however, because it was not condemned as a sin. Mistreatment was a sin. Failure to offer freedom to slaves who had served out a term of slavery was a sin, but slavery was not a sin, and often slaves would return to their masters because they trusted them and were provided for by them. It's easy to argue in the case of a class society that slavery is not really dead. Equality of women is also a non-issue because Paul was not for unequal treatment. Paul, on numerous occasions affirms the ministry of women. He does, on one occasion, with regard to the Corinthians, instruct the women to hold their questions for their husbands because, all Jewish and most non-Jewish women were without formal education (no they weren't stupid) but all Jewish boys and most non-Jewish boys were given the opportunity to study and learn to read. For Jews it was reading the Law. The idea, from Paul, was that the women would ask their husbands to explain portions of the law that they didn't understand, so as not to disrupt times of teaching. My argument in all of this is that, the author is claiming some level of expertise on Scripture when he discounts the very authority of the Scripture he is drawing his article from. It is completely unreasonable to argue against something in Scripture simply because you disagree with the author while at the same crediting the same scripture with some amount of truth. When it comes to reading Joe Shmo's 10 Best Secrets to Great Tasting Quiche, it's reasonable to say, "who is he to have authority to say he's got the 10 best secrets?" But to say of Scripture, "who is he to say this is truth," well, either you accept or you don't. This author clearly doesn't.

    October 6, 2011 at 2:48 am |
    • Observer

      Jim,

      The author was completely correct when he said "Opponents of gay marriage aren’t defending the Bible’s values. They’re using the Bible to defend their own.". You won't find many Christians who will defend slavery, the inferiority of women, and put marriage down, but you will find plenty using their Bible as an excuse for their prejudices. It's all pick and choose hypocrisy.

      October 6, 2011 at 3:12 am |
    • Jon F

      Exodus 21: 20 "And if a man beats his servant or his maidservant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished." 21 "Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his property."

      You would be a ignorant fool to think the bible doesn't condone slavery. "for he is his property."

      November 9, 2011 at 5:41 pm |
    • Carin

      When Energy 92.7 first started out in 2004 it had a a great cnualh (its rating were pretty good) with a great tag line; "The Beat of the Bay"While the station did work with its "gay audience" it also made a effort to reach out to others as well. This is why its raiting in the beginig were so good as there was alot of cross over audience. Then everything changed...A new program director came in and "The Beat Of The Bay" tag line was changed to "Pure Dance" (the minunite dance purists come in you know your in trouble). Lets not forget a atenna switch that did little to improve the signal quality. Lets also point out that the "pure dance" meant good dance remixes of popular songs were replaced with repittious "club anthems" sprinkled with too many Madonna songs. Also the station ditched its corss over appeal to narrowcast on the residents of castro distrct only. This narrowcasting reached its peak when they hired the vastly overrated "Karel" to do a talkshow 5 nights a week. I ask you this: What is a boring talkshow host doing on a dance station that bills its self as "pure dance"?I'm a dance music fan and I gave up on them in 2009. The music was bad, I'll listen to KFI for a crappy talk shows and it doesnt help that the signal sucked. Could a narrowcasting that Energy 92.7 did work? Yes, as long as you did not pay $30 million for a station that has trouble covering the makret your supposed to serve. I do belive a dance station could work. Energy in its early years proved that it could. It was fun while it lasted.

      March 4, 2012 at 2:34 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.