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July 26th, 2011
04:56 AM ET

Atheist group wants to stop World Trade Center cross

A group of atheists has filed a lawsuit to stop the display of the World Trade Center cross at a memorial of the 9/11 terror attacks.

The "government enshrinement of the cross was an impermissible mingling of church and state," the American Atheists say in a press statement.

The group says it filed the lawsuit this week in state court in New York and posted a copy of the lawsuit on its website.

The lawsuit names many defendants, including the state of New Jersey, the city of New York , New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg and New Jersey Governor Chris Christie.

FULL POST

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: 9/11 • Atheism • New York

soundoff (554 Responses)
  1. Mark from Middle River

    Sarah Bonner : "The memorial is private property. It is not owned by the government."

    If this is true, then I have just wasted my time arguing with these folks and this becomes a serious non-issue. Is this true?

    July 27, 2011 at 9:10 pm |
    • Sarah Bonner

      Yes.

      The memorial will be owned as private museum property. It will apply for tax-exempt status, the same way that every church or religious organization or secular charity applies.

      July 27, 2011 at 9:23 pm |
    • Nonimus

      I think the majority of the WTC site is actually owned by the Port Authority, but I could be wrong. Does anyone have a reference?

      July 29, 2011 at 4:52 pm |
  2. Grimwyrd

    Why can't Christians see that including a religious icon (from their Christian religion)...
    into a memorial honoring the dead (who were not all Christians)....
    after a terrorist attack (that was motivated by religion)....
    paid for by a government that is supposed to represent all people (regardless of their religion)....
    with tax money from a wide variety of people (not all of whom are Christian)...

    ...bothers the non-religious or people who are of religions other than Christian.

    Privileged much? Can't the Cross go into a Christian-specific memorial paid for by Christians?

    I'm an atheist who lost people on 9/11. I am very angry about the role that religion played in their death. The last thing I want to see, if I ever visit this memorial, is a monument to the God of Abraham or his supposed son.

    July 27, 2011 at 8:19 pm |
    • Sarah Bonner

      Using your logic, why can you not have your own specific memorial for atheists only? How about the Buddhists get their own memorial, or the Taoists, or the Pagans? Honestly, I have no problem with having a SINGLE memorial which incorporates all the faiths of those who died, but I think it's crass and a product of hatred to say that someone can't use a cross as part of a memorial.

      The cross at the WTC is not meant to state that all the people who died were Christians. It is not meant to be offensive, it's meant to be a symbol of hope and remembrance. In this context, it does not signify a "religion" of hatred, but rather that so many people were touched by the events of 9-11 and it through the cross that they wish to convey this. When you speak out against the WTC cross, you're speaking out against the religion out of place of your own intolerance - and is that not why 9/11 occured to begin with?

      But I guess if you want to get technical and legal about it...
      The memorial is private property. It is not owned by the government.

      July 27, 2011 at 8:50 pm |
    • DC from NJ

      I totally agree with you Grimwyrd. Thank you for your comments.

      July 27, 2011 at 9:03 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Grimwyrd. Much respect and condolences in your loss.

      You state why can't Christians understand that you have resentment towards them. Dude or Dudette, I can understand but you can't have it both ways by saying that the government is suppose to represent all people and this situation get upset because of a inclusion of a item such as this. It was a place that those of Faith found comfort and prayed for strength in the days after 9/11. You think just because it is offensive to you that alone is a valid reason not to include the Cross Beams?

      >>>“Can't the Cross go into a Christian-specific memorial paid for by Christians?”

      >>>”paid for by a government that is supposed to represent all people (regardless of their religion)....”

      First, the government is not paying for anything, we the tax payers are. Just like the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Libya. Things that I am pretty sure that a good portion of the tax payers are paying for. What you need to understand is something that we all learn as we grow older, there will always be things that government pays for that each of us will at one time or another find issue with.

      I found this political cartoon a few weeks ago.

      So to your first statement.... if you are using Christian American taxes then part of this memorial is being paid for by Christian Americans.

      I understand your anger and hate but another thing we all learned as kids is that you can not take your anger out on another for another's actions. It will be the same as the African Americans that beat Reginald Denny … because the LAPD beat Rodney King.

      At some time you have to let your hate and fear go dude. 9/11 taught us that we all can die for any reason. Folks will kill for any reason.

      >>>”The last thing I want to see, if I ever visit this memorial, is a monument to the God of Abraham or his supposed son.”

      I am pretty sure there is a Native American out there that is saying that the last thing they want to see is another billion dollars worth of construction and building on the lands that once were his people. Last thing the 700 club crowd will want to see is a Gay or Lesbian couple visiting the site. The last thing that some of the poor African American and Hispanic American communities want to see is federal money going to any exibit when so many more in their community are out of work.

      In the end, its all of you people, folks that hate others and will do whatever they can to try to hurt them. One day I hope we shake you folks off. Your like are the ones that wake up one morning and become so enraged that those that you hate still exist at which point you go off the deep end.

      If all you have is hate Grimwyrd, then you will miss out on so much of life.

      July 27, 2011 at 9:08 pm |
    • Grimwyrd

      Sarah... I completely understand what the "WTC Cross" means to you. It doesn't mean that to me.

      If there were a "WTC Star of David" and a "WTC Star and Crescent" and a "WTC Pile of Rubble that Reminds Buddhists of Buddha's Tummy" maybe we could stage them all together at the memorial so that everyone is represented and everyone had their own symbol of hope and remembrance. Don't you see how ludicrous that sounds? The fact that the WTC Cross makes sense to you is only because you are a Christian. The fact that you think it's appropriate to display any religion or life-philosophy at this memorial only makes sense to you because you are religious.

      And where do you get off calling me intolerant? You have every right to worship in any way you see fit, and I would fight and die for you to keep that right.

      But that's not good enough for you. You have to force your religious icon/imagery onto a government memorial paid for with tax dollars. You have to force Jesus into a situation where we should all set aside our religions and philosophies and just celebrate being human and losing humans. Then you have the unmitigated gall to cry intolerance and persecution. Please.

      And Mark? Where in my post did you get the message that I suffer from hate and fear. Where did I say I had an issue with Christians. I don't. Again, I would fight and die for your right to worship. All I ask is that you return the favor and have enough respect not to push your Christianity onto me. Your god is on my money. Your god is in my Pledge. Your god is everywhere I look. I'd prefer not to see it on a memorial that honors those killed by RELIGIOUS violence, paid for by my tax dollars.

      Why do you fear and hate atheists so much that you have to call us names and think we're all out to get you, just for asking you to respect our lack of religion and have the common decency not to turn this monument into a religious one. We should be celebrating the memory of Americans. Not atheists. Not Christians. Not Muslims. Not Hindu. We should be celebrating the memory of Americans. Is that such a horrible concept to you?

      July 27, 2011 at 9:45 pm |
    • Clyde M

      Amen.

      July 27, 2011 at 9:46 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      And Mark? Where in my post did you get the message that I suffer from hate and fear.

      >>>”I am very angry about the role that religion played in their death. The last thing I want to see, if I ever visit this memorial, is a monument to the God of Abraham or his supposed son.”

      >>> “Then you have the unmitigated gall to cry intolerance and persecution. Please.”

      If you do not see the hatred and pure fear.... then that is all on you kid.

      Time to let it all go dude. I was like you once. For me, I did hate every Atheist. Then I came here and I got to talk to non-militant and peace loving Atheist. I found ones that I could talk to. Right now Grim, you are still at the “I will scream at you over and over” stage. It just shows that you are not ready to talk, all you want to do is shout and scream. With that you will not find a way to even arrive at tolerance.

      I have the “gall” to call you intolerant because I have seen a peace that you have not. I have seen that different folks can get along side by side and that on occasions that folks that believe differently than you can often hold better discussions than some that believe the same as you.

      What you prefer is pretty meaningless because just by reading your post you see Christians on the high ground ready to swoop in and destroy you.

      >>>”We should be celebrating the memory of Americans. Not atheists. Not Christians. Not Muslims. Not Hindu. We should be celebrating the memory of Americans. Is that such a horrible concept to you?”

      The horrible concepts that I guess I see is that I see everyone as individuals and what makes them unique is what makes them special. I saw a day when all those that died had faces and names. They each had a story of who they were. You have even gone forth to claim them all as Americans. 🙂

      If we made the memorial to your specs it would just be an empty room with a huge plaque with names of who died. I want to see the Yankee's baseball cap. I want to ejab, I want to see that it was not just names of Americans that died. I want to see more. I want to see Ladder 7's truck. I want to know that the guys climbed on that very rig and for the last time. I want to see this cross to know that it brought peace too so many workers while they went about the rescue that went on for weeks and weeks. I want to see the letter carriers bag.

      Is this too much to ask, to have a memorial that lets us identify with the people that suffered that day? Not just a plaque.

      July 27, 2011 at 10:46 pm |
    • Grimwyrd

      "If you do not see the hatred and pure fear.... then that is all on you kid."

      Please refrain from condescension...kid. Yes, I am angry at religion for its role in 9/11. The fact that theoretically rational, educated adults could be twisted into thinking that flying planes into buildings is justified and holy... points out just how dangerous religion can be in the hands of zealots.

      That does not mean I fear or hate all Muslims. It does not mean I fear or hate Christians. You're attacking a straw man. Let it go dude.

      I have never been and will never be at a "scream and scream" phase. And I do not see "Christians on the high ground, ready to sweep in and destroy me". Again, nice straw man, trying to paint me as irrational and paranoid.

      What I do see is a religious majority in America that thinks they have the right to impose their religion on everyone else. And I see them belittling people (like you are doing), when we calmly and politely ask you to stop. And they they get hysterical when we ask the courts to make you stop.

      I too want to see the Cap and the Ladder. I too want to remember those who were lost. Is it really so much to ask that I can do so without a huge Cross as a reminder of why people died in the first place...religious violence?

      July 28, 2011 at 1:06 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>”Yes, I am angry at religion for its role in 9/11. The fact that theoretically rational, educated adults could be twisted into thinking that flying planes into buildings is justified and holy... points out just how dangerous religion can be in the hands of zealots.”

      Hmm... well, at least you are admitting that you are “angry”. That is a good start. Try this Grimwyrd, I would wager that your anger at the Terrorist using Religion to justify killing, is far less than the peaceful Muslims had towards the terrorist. Once Chris Rock said that the klans hatred of African Americans was far less than the hatred of good and decent African Americans had of the thieving and lazy African Americans. What you saw was the actions of the Terrorist, what good and decent Muslims saw was their desire for acceptance in society take a massive blow. They knew the next day society would see them as no different than the terrorist. Your anger is similar to those of Faith Grim.

      >>>”I have never been and will never be at a "scream and scream" phase.”

      Grim at July 27, 2011 at 8:19 pm you arrived at the “scream” phase and at 9:45 you went into the Fukushima almost meltdown phase. Also the phase was a “I will scream at you over and over” phase. 🙂

      >>>”trying to paint me as irrational and paranoid.”

      Give me another day and I will have you going from accepting that you are “angry” to openly admitting you are irrational and a bit paranoid 😀

      >>>”What I do see is a religious majority in America that thinks they have the right to impose their religion on everyone else. “

      ….hmm …LOL..... Paranoid stage achieved by Grimwyd at 1am !! 🙂

      >>>” I too want to remember those who were lost. Is it really so much to ask that I can do so without a huge Cross as a reminder of why people died in the first place...religious violence?”

      Good grief, a item that marked a place to hang non-believers... tar and feather Gays and Lesbian … umm no …. oh yeah, a marker where a bunch of folks prayed for peace and strength to God.

      ….. Ecch... It's late... that was borderline irrational but I figure you were getting tired or starting to really lose your marbles. If the Cross Beams cause that much discomfort to you then I will tell you the same thing that I tell my African American friends and family about the Confederate flag.

      Its meaning can not be fully defined by us alone. Into the meaning we must factor in those who fly it and their reasoning. We will never know every Confederates reasoning, but we can never discount those whose definition does not match our own.

      July 28, 2011 at 5:55 am |
    • pfeffernusse

      @Sarah, to be fair and equitable to people of ALL faiths, there should be NO representation of any religion on the site. If people of faith want to build specific memorials, on their property with their money, I’m all for it. But this is a public space, funded with public dollars. The Lower Manhattan Development Corp is funded by United States Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD). The Port Authority of NYC is funded by money from New York, New Jersey, and the Federal government. This is very much a memorial being built with government (taxpayer) money.

      What is crass and hateful is to say that one group of people get to have their religion encased in a space where not all people of that faith died. Now, as a Christian, you don’t see anything wrong with a cross. You see it as something good and positive. But take a step back from your priviledge for a moment. Not everyone feels the same way you do. Jews, Pagans, Native Americans, and many other groups see the cross as a symbol of oppression. It is an insult to them to display a cross on public property that their tax dollars helped fund.

      July 28, 2011 at 12:25 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      @Mark, our government is to represent all people. To do that, our government was founded as a secular government. Displays of a particular faith have no place in an area where public tax dollars are used for the construction and maintainance. Because the tax dollars did not just come from people of that particular faith. The WTC memorial is definitely government funded. The Lower Manhattan Development Corp is funded by United States Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD). The Port Authority of NYC is funded by money from New York, New Jersey, and the Federal government. This is very much a memorial being built with government (taxpayer) money. If this was private property and private money, the lawsuit would have been dismissed. They have a case. Hence, the suit is going forward.

      Our government does represent Christians. But not JUST Christians. I understand that a majority of the people in this country are Christians. It is set as the default. Everywhere you go, everywhere you look, there is something affirming Christianity. Which, yes, since most of the people are Christian, this is bound to happen. But take a step back from your privilege as a Christian. You see this cross as a symbol of peace, love, and hope. Not everyone does. Not Pagans, Jews, or even the Native Americans you mentioned. Not people of other faiths. Not people of no faith. You see it as a positive thing, but not everyone shares your view. In a public space, symbols of ANY faith don’t have a place. That belongs on religious or private property.

      While we live in a representative Republic, we as citizens don’t always have a say about how our tax dollars are spent. I would prefer my tax dollars not be spent on war, torture, or propping up puppet dictators. I have no choice in that. But I DO have a choice and a voice in how my tax dollars are spent in a public space meant for all citizens.

      No one is trying to destroy anyone. No one is trying to take anyone’s rights away. This suit is about protecting EVERYONE’S rights. You take offense because you feel that your faith is being attacked and we are trying to deny it. We take the same offense that you feel that a symbol of your faith should be in a place that is for ALL citizens.

      To use your example…how would you feel if a southern Federal park, marking a site of a Civil War battlefield, flew an enormous Confederate flag? Oh, sure, there might be one US flag (they are required at Federal park), but there is a 50’ by 25’ Confederate flag flying over the visitors center. Smaller confederate flags are featured all over. Some Southerners could claim that the Confederate flag is part of their culture and history. They could say that they see only good and positive things when they look at that flag. But I think you’d be pretty insulted. I think you’d be upset as to how your tax dollars were spent. Same thing here.

      July 28, 2011 at 1:26 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>”To use your example…how would you feel if a southern Federal park, marking a site of a Civil War battlefield, flew an enormous Confederate flag?”

      I need to bounce, I have errands to run but I will quickly burst the heck' out of your bubble.

      You are talking to a African American who did... what I felt was a great paper on African American Confederates 🙂

      Check out the Richmond Defenders or Frederick Douglass speech that acknowledged that free blacks had taken up arms for the South against the North. At a reunion of Gettysburg soldiers the organizers did not factor in that along with the White confederate troopers they would have African American Confederate troopers.

      So, for a Civil War battlefield, there should be just as big of a Confederate flag as a Union Flag.

      >>>”They could say that they see only good and positive things when they look at that flag. But I think you’d be pretty insulted. I think you’d be upset as to how your tax dollars were spent. Same thing here.”

      You have just admitted what I feel, is the weakness of your argument. You admit that what they feel is different than you, then in the end, just like the Cross Beams.... you just fall in line with many in society that are and will always be parts that everyone will not find agreement on.

      July 28, 2011 at 2:53 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      @Mark, I know you are African American. That’s why I used that example. Yes, there were African Americans that fought for the South. However, the Confederate flag is a specific symbol of division and intolerance. A symbol of a time in this country’s history when slavery was legal and desired. Is that the symbol you want featured prominently in a Federally-funded Civil War battlefield?

      “You have just admitted what I feel, is the weakness of your argument. You admit that what they feel is different than you, then in the end, just like the Cross Beams.... you just fall in line with many in society that are and will always be parts that everyone will not find agreement on.”

      I’m fuzzy on what you mean here. Will you clarify?

      July 28, 2011 at 4:41 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>“@Mark, I know you are African American. That’s why I used that example.”

      Ahh.... So you naturally figured that since I am a African American I would feel the same way about the Confederate flag and the Confederacy in general. I guess we all listen to Rap music and danced our way right out of our mothers wombs? Do you know how insulting generalizations such as yours are? To think that you can win a debate with a African American by going such a route? Now you are moving into racist type of thinking pfeffernusse.

      >>> “A symbol of a time in this country’s history when slavery was legal and desired. Is that the symbol you want featured prominently in a Federally-funded Civil War battlefield?”

      Well, since Abraham Lincoln only freed the slaves in the Confederate states and since he was willing to take the debate of slavery off of the table to save the Union.... and to that there were black slave owners in the South.... and also since the treatment of African Americans in the North was not that good either. Strange how they passed laws in the North that a runaway slave can be captured and dragged back to the South.......I think the issue of African Americans at the time of the Civil War is very cloudy. Especially not enough to sway an educated African American free from the Liberal oppression.

      Hmm.. the fuzzy part to you. Pfeff. there a always parts of society who will take what they do or who they are.... love and honor it.... and still have another segment of society that can not stand what they stand for or their symbols. Such as the Confederate flag, Rainbow bumper stickers and many others. Your post have stated that the government represents all. Where do you draw the lines at for who is all and who is not? People of Faith, Atheist, and those in the middle, are all tax paying Americans. If the basis of your argument is “hurt feelings”... then that is a weak argument because there will always be hurt feelings. What I feel you are fuzzy on is that you fail to make that connection that we all are represented.

      Let me give you another example. The schools that have had to go peanut and peanut butter free because one child had a life threatening allergies to peanut products. In that example when we move past the hurt feelings and we sadly venture into life and death. In that instance..... as much as I feel the kid should be pulled out of school … that is the example of Government protecting us. The Government can not protect against bad feelings. My statement is that your arguments are really no different than a lot of folks that object to their taxes being used for some segment or project that the Government puts together. We are talking from foreign wars, to free health-care for illegal immigrants to art shows where there is a Crucifix floating in a jar of urine.

      But, it was funny to see you try to pull on my racial heart strings. Getting desperate, are we? 🙂

      July 28, 2011 at 5:52 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      “Do you know how insulting generalizations such as yours are?” I didn’t make the generalizations. You did. Of all the African American people I’ve known, not a single one has had a positive view of the Confederate flag. Just like I and a lots of other people of different colors don’t like it.

      Quit trying to win your point by jumping to conclusions that aren’t there. You’ll hurt yourself.

      And thank you, professor, but I’m well read on the history and issues of the Civil War. But I do so appreciate being talked down to. That was awesome.

      You seem overly preoccupied with the “hurt feelings” of the people who don’t think the same way you do. You seem to expect those people to just get over it. Of course, your feelings are paramount. You think you’re being asked to “bend and cower” because people are opposed to the cross. I honestly don’t think you’d be this insistent on getting your way if this were a Star of David or a Star and Crescent. But because it’s a cross, something you relate to, something you like, it’s all okay. And if other people aren’t okay with it, too bad for them?

      Do you understand how thoughtless and arrogant that is?

      “Getting desperate, are we?” Hardly. But you go ahead and pat yourself on the back if that gets you through the night. It’s very simple. Nothing is taken from you if the cross is not installed. But many others can be hurt if the cross is installed. And it violates the Establishment Clause. I have empathy for others (who don’t necessarily share my opinion on religion) and the law on my side. What do you have? (Arrogance and condescension don’t count.)

      July 28, 2011 at 6:37 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>> “Quit trying to win your point by jumping to conclusions that aren’t there. You’ll hurt yourself.”
      Of course I might hurt myself, as soon as you said “@Mark, I know you are African American. That’s why I used that example.” ….

      You were so busy jumping to conclusions that since I was an African American I would automatically feel negatively about the Confederacy and the Confederate flag.... when I tripped you up you almost ran into me as you fell flat on your face. 🙂

      >>> “do so appreciate being talked down to. That was awesome.”
      No problem, I am only human, your generalization of assuming how a African American should feel about the Civil War was a bit low.

      >>>”You seem overly preoccupied with the “hurt feelings” of the people who don’t think the same way you do. You seem to expect those people to just get over it. “

      I apologize on that one, Tullulah has been going on and on about how we should not have the Cross Beams because it would be insulting to the victims families. She keeps asking why I do not care for their feelings. I forgot, while I was beating her over the head about feelings you were whinning about tax payer reasons.

      My fault …. whoops I forgot I need to speak like a African American with you …

      .. Yo, no problem my homie, I was straight trippin' … all my bad 😀

      >>>”I honestly don’t think you’d be this insistent on getting your way if this were a Star of David or a Star and Crescent. But because it’s a cross, something you relate to, something you like, it’s all okay. And if other people aren’t okay with it, too bad for them? Do you understand how thoughtless and arrogant that is?”

      You sad person.... this debate is going into a full beat down.... I posted this earlier today:

      MMR>“I will tell you this though, there is a small memorial set up in a building adjacent to the Ground Zero site. In that memorial I remember containing articles of clothing and items of some of the victims of the attacks. There was a ejab, I remember a Yakima was not too far from it. There was a Koran and a Bible. I was told that many of the items from that memorial will be included in the Memorial and I am glad. If someone held a belief in the flying spaghetti monster and they were killed or suffered and they wanted to include it then …. no issue from me. In a post before I said if someone was Neo-Nazi and died and his or her family came forth and said...”this was who my loved one was and here in the Iron cross with a Swastika that he was wearing when he went running into tower one that morning. We would like it included in the memorial”. I would have no problems. ”

      So since you are not reading anyone else's post today, before you open you big mouth and comment..... I guess it is you, who is the thoughtless and arrogant one. I think you need to go and find a towel to throw into the ring.... punches are raining down now. 🙂 If a Star of David was found and bunch of Jewish rescue workers were choosing it as a sitet to pray and find comfort, then I would not have a problem with it being in the memorial. If they had a collection of Muslim prayer rugs that the Muslim rescue workers did their prayers on in the midst of all that tragity... It should be there as well. I know those other items I mentioned will be there. .

      >>>“It’s very simple. Nothing is taken from you if the cross is not installed. But many others can be hurt if the cross is installed. “

      Ohh....you can tell me how I would feel? Interesting powers you have there dude. I think it would hurt the feelings of the men and women who prayed and found comfort there. Your belief that nothing would be taken away from me... but others would be hurt if it were included.... I return to the argument of the families that would feel hurt and emotional pain if any image of any person of Middle Eastern descent were on display or name listed. My belief is that such hurt is something that we can not erase from society. Of course you would feel that we as Christians would lose nothing if the Cross Beams were not included but just as you mentioned about the Confederate flag, can you really know what is going on in someone else's head?

      >>>”And it violates the Establishment Clause. “

      How, the government is not requiring you to pray to it or to even stand before it. Also Congress did not create a religion that you must follow. Heck', Congress did not even have the Cross Beams made. I did say before,... but I know you do not do that well with reading others post.... if the government came up and said … “we will make a cross for this museum. We will contract out to have the purest gold and have it made from scratch …. I would think that was awesome but I would side against it. All the planners are doing is displaying a artifact of that day that a good amount of workers found comfort in. Where is your empathy for them?

      July 28, 2011 at 7:13 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      You know what, Mark? Now you are just being an ass. You didn’t trip me up in anything. I know you were too busy being smug and accusing me of racism, so maybe you missed it. I apologize that I assumed, based on my reading and my personal experience, that African Americans wouldn’t have a positive view of the Confederate flag. I mean, hey, it’s just one of the major symbols used by the KKK. They love to display it at their meetings and lynchings. But what do I know, right?

      I haven’t been whining about anything. I’ve been stating my case clearly and carefully. You, however, have gotten your knickers in a twist and lashed out, being insulting, accusing people of horrible things, and calling people names.

      “Yo, no problem my homie, I was straight trippin' … all my bad.” All the smiley faces in the world don’t take away from the fact that you are being a willfully ignorant dolt.

      I know it’s hard to see when you are so busy congratulating yourself, but you haven’t won the “boxing match”. You have stated, over and over, that you think the cross represents hope and salvation. That you think it should be there. That just because I personally don’t like it doesn’t mean that this wonderful item that means love and peace (to you) shouldn’t be put on the site. Because YOU like it, you want it there. But if I happen to not like it, then I just have to suck it up. Sorry, sport. It doesn’t work that way.

      “I think it would hurt the feelings of the men and women who prayed and found comfort there.” Because their feelings are the most important feelings and the only ones we should consider. Screw the people of other faiths who lost someone that day and would find the cross offensive.

      I’ll try, one more time, to explain this to you. If you can stop chest-bumping your ego long enough. The Establishment Clause is there to prevent the government from endorsing or supporting a particular religion. When the government pays to have a religious symbol installed and maintained on public property, they are seen to endorse or support the religion of that symbol. The government is not requiring anyone to pray before it but the very act of paying to have it put there is seen as a stamp of approval from the government. Which is a violation of the First Amendment and against the law. NOW do you get it?

      July 28, 2011 at 7:50 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>”You know what, Mark? Now you are just being an ass. You didn’t trip me up in anything. “
      I am shocked that you would use such language …. I might faint dead away. 🙂

      >>>”I assumed, based on my reading and my personal experience, that African Americans wouldn’t have a positive view of the Confederate flag.”

      Of course, if it were up to the Liberal systems and media you would never known. Try talking to a person of Faith … excluding the 700 club *example: Bonnie* … learn that the vast majority of us are not your enemies. Sometimes that is all that it takes. Like I said , I was once like you with Atheist, then I learned that there was a time to fight and a time to talk.

      >>>“I haven’t been whining about anything. I’ve been stating my case clearly and carefully. You, however, have gotten your knickers in a twist and lashed out, being insulting, accusing people of horrible things, and calling people names.”

      Umm.... dude, you were the one who lost his cool and called me a Democrat 😀

      >>>”You have stated, over and over, that you think the cross represents hope and salvation. “

      pfeffernusse...I just did another word search … You and you alone used the term “Hope and Salvation”. If you can show me where I said “hope and salvation” I will gladly take that charge. 🙂 ..but on this one I think you have just burned yourself.

      Ok ..”sport”... The cross as in the symbol of crosses is one thing....this cross ...the Cross Beams one is different. If it never happened or was not used to pray and find comfort for some of the rescue and recovery folks, I would not push for one in the memorial other than my basic Christian belief system. This Cross is different it is where a notable amount of rescue workers found as a place of comfort and strength. Even if you had a issue with the religious aspect can you not find your way to the human aspect of people surrounded by tragic scenes and finding in the midst something that they viewed as a sign of comforting?

      “Because their feelings are the most important feelings and the only ones we should consider.”

      “Screw the people of other faiths who lost someone that day and would find the cross offensive.”
      Wow... medication time kid. Reign yourself back in.

      >>>”The Establishment Clause is there to prevent the government from endorsing or supporting a particular religion.”

      You again are interpreting it, I feel incorrectly. I do believe the text says:

      “"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"”

      So, since the government is not requiring you to worship as a Christian or more plainly establishing a religion that you must follow to enter or view the memorial, you argument fails my friend. 😦

      >>>“they are seen to endorse or support the religion of that symbol.”

      Again with the 700club type rant. Sounds like their protest against Gay and Lesbian education in California Public schools or their dislike of school giving our cond'oms and birth control. Sorry “sport”
      … you folks on the extremes need to get a new script. Soon as you said … “they are seen” and “is seen as”...you expressed your own view and opinion which can be countered by anyone who has a different view. Both cancel each other out. All they have to do is say they do not see it your way.

      >>>”Now do you get it”

      Until you work more towards this bumper sticker ….. I do not want what you are sellin'

      Going to the movies ... Peace and l'chaim,

      July 28, 2011 at 8:47 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      Mark, I’ve noticed something. You get upset when people makes assumptions about you but you have no compunction about making assumptions about others. You bandy about condescending nicknames like “kid” but you take umbrage when the same is done to you. You expect people to understand that Christianity is nothing but good yet you refuse to see how others might not feel that way. If you want to discuss the topic, fine. But please leave your double standard at the door.

      It may surprise you to know that I am acquainted with few atheists or agnostics in my personal life. A vast majority of my friends and family are people of faith. I know Pagans, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, Catholics, just about every denomination of Protestantism. I’ve attended religious functions with them. I don’t see them as my enemies. While we differ in matters of faith, I respect and defend their right to believe. Just as they respect and defend my right not to.

      “Umm.... dude, you were the one who lost his cool and called me a Democrat.”

      I think you are mistaking me for someone else. I have no idea what political party you belong to and I’ve never guessed.

      “I just did another word search … You and you alone used the term ‘Hope and Salvation’. If you can show me where I said ‘hope and salvation’ I will gladly take that charge. ..but on this one I think you have just burned yourself.”

      Wow. You really got me on that one. I have a vocabulary. You called me out. What a good catch. What a gotcha. You really nailed me with that one. Whoo. My use of variety in language has invalidated all of my arguments. Wow. /sarcasm

      “Wow... medication time kid. Reign yourself back in.”

      Cracks like this endear you to no one. It just reveals more of your double standard. I also notice you didn’t address the concern I raised.

      “The cross as in the symbol of crosses is one thing....this cross ...the Cross Beams one is different. If it never happened or was not used to pray and find comfort for some of the rescue and recovery folks, I would not push for one in the memorial other than my basic Christian belief system.”

      A quote from the lawsuit; “Defendant (Franciscan friar Brian) Jordan blessed the cross in October 2011, after construction workers at the site told him they saw the cross as ‘a sign that God never abandoned us at Ground Zero.’” At that time, it became a Christian symbol. A 20 foot, 2 ton Christian symbol.

      “This Cross is different it is where a notable amount of rescue workers found as a place of comfort and strength. Even if you had an issue with the religious aspect can you not find your way to the human aspect of people surrounded by tragic scenes and finding in the midst something that they viewed as a sign of comforting?”

      I certainly can. Those brave people that cleaned up after the attack were doing an impossible job under an unbelievable amount of stress. I can’t imagine how tough each day was, slogging through that debris, hoping against hope to find survivors. The fact that they found these cross beams (which they had to cut a little to make look like a true cross) and found comfort in them is not the problem. Even if you don’t have a problem with the religious issue, can you not find your way to the human aspect of people surrounded by a tragic reminder and finding in the midst of this a symbol that they view as a sign of oppression? At the very least, exclusion?

      Another quote from the lawsuit; “On multiple occasions, plaintiff American Atheists publicly offered to provide a memorial for the September 11 Memorial and Museum, at its own cost, to represent the approximately 500 non-religious victims of the attack on the World Trade Center.

      Plaintiff American Atheists never received a response.”

      July 29, 2011 at 2:18 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      @Mark (cont.)

      >>>The Establishment Clause is there to prevent the government from endorsing or supporting a particular religion.<<<

      “You again are interpreting it, I feel incorrectly.”

      There are several interpretations of the Establishment Clause. One is “separationism”, which holds that the Establishment Clause prevents any government endorsement or support of religious establishments.

      July 29, 2011 at 3:15 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      @Mark (cont.)

      For example, the government cannot tell religious organizations what they can or can’t put on their property. Conversely, religious organizations cannot tell the government (and therefore, the people) what to put on their property.

      Another is “accommodationism”, which holds that the government may support or endorse religious establishments as long as it treats all religions equally and does not show preferential treatment.

      No other religious or non-religious group has been permitted a memorial at the site.

      July 29, 2011 at 3:21 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      @Mark (cont.)

      A third is “preferentialism” (aka Christian dominionism), which holds that the Establishment Clause only prevents a literal Church of America from being created and does not prevent the government from explicitly endorsing Christianity. I believe, based on your posts (“So, since the government is not requiring you to worship as a Christian or more plainly establishing a religion that you must follow to enter or view the memorial, you argument fails my friend.”), this is where you stand. I, and many others, do not.

      July 29, 2011 at 3:22 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      @Mark (cont.)

      I am not an extremist. Another assumption on your part. My concern is for the non-Christians who will visit the site and also that the rule of law be observed. I’m a stickler for law and the Consti-tution (and Bill of Rights). I’m not selling you anything. I am telling you that according to the law, both Federal and State laws are being violated.

      From the lawsuit; “The installation of the cross at the September 11 Memorial and Museum is violative of Article 4 Section 40 of New York’s Civil Rights Act, which mandates…’All persons within the jurisdiction of this state shall be enti-tled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any places of public accommodations, resort or amusement, subject only to the conditions and limitations
      established by law and applicable alike to all persons.’

      “In ignoring other faiths’ and non-religious based groups’ attempts to place a similar memorial in the September 11 Memorial and Museum, the defendants have denied non-Christian Americans full and equal privileges within the museum, in violation of Article 4 Section 40 of New York’s Civil Rights Act.”

      On September 11, 2001, in the World Trade Center, a mosque was destroyed and approximately 35 Muslim Americans died. Anywhere from 400-500 Jewish Americans died. 500 non-religious Americans and an unknown number of Americans of other faiths died. I speak for them and their families, religious and non-religious alike.

      July 29, 2011 at 3:23 pm |
    • Nonimus

      Wow. You guys/gals really let this get out of hand. And I'll just feed the fire a bit...
      First, the Establishment Clause has been interpreted by the SCOTUS to mean, essentially, a separation of church and state. So until there is a SCOTUS decision to overturn that, or a Consti.tutional amendment, that is the law.

      Second, I don't know everyone's viewpoint, but personally I can't understand anyone's respect for the Confederate flag. Like it or not, agree or not, It has become a symbol of racism and slavery and should not be used by any public/governmental enti.ty, personal use is covered under Freedom of Expression. (disclosure: If it matters to anyone I'm caucasian.)

      And third, I don't think this cross should be placed at the memorial, primarily because every time I see it, I can't help but **think of all the people it crushed when it fell on top of them**.
      But hey, that's just me.

      July 29, 2011 at 4:12 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      Nicely summed up, Nominus.

      July 29, 2011 at 4:25 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>“Umm.... dude, you were the one who lost his cool and called me a Democrat.”

      I think you are mistaking me for someone else. I have no idea what political party you belong to and I’ve never guessed.”

      Good grief dude. What a wasted play on words. You said: “Now you are just being an ass. “ ...which I replied: “called me a Democrat”.

      Are you wound up so tight that you didn't get that. I am a Republican … our symbol is a Elephant. A Democrats symbol is a donkey or in old terms … an ass. Loosen up kid.

      >>>”Wow. You really got me on that one.”

      Like I said … give me enough time and I will have you carrying the Cross beams into the Memorial 😀

      >>>”Cracks like this endear you to no one.”

      Sorry, I am not playing to the crowd, are you? I don't require such crowd approval to conquer and destroy in a debate or argument.

      >>>”At that time, it became a Christian symbol. A 20 foot, 2 ton Christian symbol.”

      Then how many other things are blessed by religious figures. Sometimes all on their own. Ships, bridges and buildings. What do you want...place guards around things in society in case anyone religious blesses it? If you want to take that angle and run with it, you will have Priest, Rabbis, Pastors, and Imans blessing everything. That's a lot of wrecking balls you will need. 🙂

      >>>”Even if you don’t have a problem with the religious issue, can you not find your way to the human aspect of people surrounded by a tragic reminder and finding in the midst of this a symbol that they view as a sign of oppression? At the very least, exclusion?”

      So let me get this straight... I can either side with those that will already be inside of a memorial with other evidence of the Towers collapse … crushed Police cars, Fire trucks and victims belongings.... pictures and videos of the towers falling ….. basically “tragic”reminders of that day …I need to worry about the segment that is anti religious?? Are you nuts? That's like saying I will side with the ones that are anti-middle eastern. You feel I should side with those that hold hate?
      Or I can side with the side that includes all visions and images of that day.... umm this is a easy one.

      >>>”My concern is for the non-Christians who will visit the site and also that the rule of law be observed.”

      I do believe that since the Government is not requiring you to stand and pray to the Cross Beams the law is ok. Also, check out the Jewish and Muslim items that, if I am correct will be transferred to the site. I think if they are going the route that other faiths are not represented then this will probably be a win for the folks putting up the Cross Beams.

      I guess I can say ..good luck 🙂

      July 30, 2011 at 4:25 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Hi Nonimus.

      We touch on the Establishment clause on page 5 of this thread. Like many laws, it will come down to interpretation of the SCOTUS before it is all over with. The way I believe the defenders of this item will be that the item was a piece of history and that the Government is not requiring visitors to honor or pray to it. Also, since there will be other items from those tragic days there, along side, it will just be viewed as a another display.

      >>>“I can't help but **think of all the people it crushed when it fell on top of them”

      Check out the pictures online, it did not fall … was found upright. It is one of the lower supports.

      ...Now I could go into a church revival about how the Cross did not fail …:)

      >>>“...personally I can't understand anyone's respect for the Confederate flag. Like it or not, agree or not, It has become a symbol of racism and slavery”

      Its hard to explain. The Civil War was, as we are finding out with time, not as cut and dry as the history books told us, in our youth. We were told that Lincolns Emancipation Proclamation freed the slaves. Now, as people have begun to read and understand the act we find out this Nonimus:

      “The Proclamation applied only in ten states that were still in rebellion in 1863, thus it did not cover the nearly 500,000 slaves in the slave-holding border states (Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland or Delaware) which were Union states”

      So, when Lincoln freed the slaves it was in states that were in the Confederacy and not in the states in the Union. My more radical brothers say that it was because the Southerners had so much of their capital (money) tied up in the value of slaves that when Lincoln signed the law it was to put a financial hit on the South.

      We then throw in Free Black Confederates, which Frederick Douglass admitted existed, Black slave owners in the South.... areas of Northern hatred of the blacks …. did you see Gangs of New York? That end riot really happened and the death count of the blacks that were murdered in New York was incredible.

      You could compare the Confederate flags use by hate groups as what Britain is fighting now because hate groups are using the Union Jack as their symbol. I have met with Confederates supporters and found that the story of who was right and who was wrong is more gray than folks might want to accept.

      July 30, 2011 at 4:46 am |
    • pfeffernusse

      “Good grief dude. What a wasted play on words.”

      Indeed. You aren’t as clever as you think you are.

      “Like I said … give me enough time and I will have you carrying the Cross beams into the Memorial”

      Wow. Ego much?

      “I don't require such crowd approval to conquer and destroy in a debate or argument.”

      I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but you haven’t won anything. Your 2-ton hunk of metal is more important than anyone or anything else. I get it. You carefully avoid salient points so you can claim victory. Well, you enjoy that. I came here for adult discussion. And possibly poking fun at the fundies. If I wanted to be condescended to, I’ll go talk to my teenage niece. If I want temper tantrums and evasion, I’ll go talk to my 5-year-old nephew.

      July 30, 2011 at 6:30 pm |
  3. Jim

    I think they would be better served by putting up one of those nifty COEXIST signs. Everyone's happy. They could make it out of marble, and while being a memorial to the victims of the attacks it could also be a plea for peace.

    July 27, 2011 at 7:55 pm |
    • Nonimus

      Good idea... or the TOLERANCE sign Mark from Middle River mentioned above.

      July 29, 2011 at 4:32 pm |
  4. Sarah Bonner

    I am saddened that the "separation of church and state" has shifted in its meaning - from a rule of government that was meant to protect religions from prosecution, to a rule of government where religions are actively regulated out of public society. We were meant to worship (or not worship) as according to our own beliefs without fault, not go around trying to scrub out every hint and sign of religious belief from the view of those who might be offended.

    What is the actual problem with a memorial cross? WHY is it offensive? Does it hold the same meaning as, say, the Nazi swastika in an equal-rights protest (that is to say, a symbol to express hatred or discontent with the context)? As a Christian, I would have no problem seeing other religious symbols in our country used on memories, especially if the people for which the memorial was for were of that religion. Memorials are not made to TAUNT or incite - they're made to be memorials.

    This is like when a group of atheists demanded that a cross be torn down out of the desert a few years back. It had been up for decades, and began as a personal memorial and then became a landmark - it did not "profess" anything against any other peoples. It was stupid - calling for its removal was nothing more than an act of intolerance, and that is EXACTLY what opposing the WTC cross is.

    "New Atheists" need to take their butt-hurt, fascist, bigoted ideas and stay away from trying to take over government policy, just like Christian fundamentalists should. Preach your message, hold conventions, publish your books, create your art, and express your beliefs - but do so without trying to destroy what you think is the 'opposition'.

    July 27, 2011 at 7:26 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      “to a rule of government where religions are actively regulated out of public society”

      Religion has no place in public places funded by tax dollars. That is not to say that people can’t decorate their stores or private businesses and places as they see fit. But the Establishment Clause gives protection to people of ALL faiths, including people of no faith. The protection works both ways.

      The problem that the atheists have is that a private symbol of faith is being put in a public place, using public dollars to maintain. This how you would feel if the Satanic symbol, an inverted cross, were put on this property. Your primary objections would be religious in nature, but I’m sure you wouldn’t be too happy that your tax dollars put it there. Same situation here.

      To some people, the cross is offensive. To Pagans and Jews, it represents centuries of oppression. To people of other faiths, it’s a reminder of how they have to constantly deal with a society that is predominantly Christian. To atheists, it can represent the bad side of Christianity, which many view as a lot of the problems our country has. You see it as a symbol of love, peace, and salvation. Not everyone else does.

      Atheists aren’t trying to destroy Christians or anyone else. They want people of faith to abide by the principles this country was founded on. Secular principles that take into account all the diversity of our country.

      July 27, 2011 at 7:59 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      pfeffernusse>>>”To some people, the cross is offensive. To Pagans and Jews, it represents centuries of oppression. To people of other faiths, it’s a reminder of how they have to constantly deal with a society that is predominantly Christian. To atheists, it can represent the bad side of Christianity, which many view as a lot of the problems our country has. You see it as a symbol of love, peace, and salvation. Not everyone else does.”

      So, since one group sees it as something of peace and love, and the other side sees it as oppression and hate... why should the peace side bend and cower to those that see it as a symbol of oppression?

      July 27, 2011 at 8:33 pm |
    • Sarah Bonner

      When I used the words "public society", I meant more than just obvious governmental owned buildings, like the White House. This issue of intolerance goes a lot deeper, especially when you get into zoning rights. Cain's attack on mosques is a recent example, but it also includes municipalities deciding that an at-home Bible study is breaking the law as a religious congregation, despite not creating a noise or peace issue.

      What people don't seem to get, though, is that just because something receives public funding OR exemptions, does not make it a government building. In this case, the WTC was never a government building. It was privately owned, and the memorial and museum will also be privately owned.

      July 27, 2011 at 8:43 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Ahh.... a new way of "waiting for moderation"

      ==
      It will always be someone offended at some symbol or another. The point of even the American flag is viewed by a few Americans as something offensive. You speak of the evils done which you feel the Cross represents, how do you then address individual groups of Native Americans (trail of tears), Ja'panese Americans (WW2 interment camps), and African Americans (Port Chicago)..... and those were just off the top of my head.

      People of Faith are part of society or to use your term, a part of the public. A big part. Since the State is not establishing a religion then it is diversity that co-existence that you are fighting.

      July 27, 2011 at 8:44 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      @Mark, you said, “So, since one group sees it as something of peace and love, and the other side sees it as oppression and hate... why should the peace side bend and cower to those that see it as a symbol of oppression?”

      #1, no one is asking anyone to bend or cower. They are asking for mutual respect. You are free to display symbols of your faith on your property and your church’s property. You are free to practice your faith openly. No one is denying you that.

      #2, because the tax dollars of people who see it as a symbol of oppression and hate are being used.

      July 28, 2011 at 1:37 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      @Sarah, I cannot speak to the local issue of whether or not a Bible study group is a congregation. That is something that would be determined by the laws of that municipality. It sounds weird to me, but I don’t know what their rules are.

      The whole issue of people thinking all Muslims are terrorists and opposing the construction of mosques and Muslim Community Centers makes me crazy. If I were a violent person, I’d want to start slapping these bigots.

      The WTC Memorial is a public space, funded by public (tax payer) dollars. It is being handled by the Port Authority of NYC and the Lower Manhattan Development Corp, both of whom receive state and Federal money. If this were private property being paid for with private dollars, the atheists that filed the suit would have had their suit summarily dismissed.

      July 28, 2011 at 1:47 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Hi pfeffernusse-

      Ok on this thread.

      1. To have mutual respect does not mean that we put away who we are or what we do just to save others feelings. In that way it is stopping who you are or what you did just for another. Same as the 700 club crowd will have to suck it up when a Gay or Lesbian comes to the stage to tell about their husbands or wives or life-partners.

      Mutual respect is not what you are speaking of. Yours is a method of ole' fashion censorship. Question, you mentioned practicing your Faith …. do you feel that the Cross Beams would make the memorial a church?

      >>>”#2, because the tax dollars of people who see it as a symbol of oppression and hate are being used.”

      I counter that with the tax dollars of those that see it as a symbol of peace and comfort. Should one tax payer count more than the other? Question, after the Vietnam war some people spit on soldiers as they were coming home. When they called our service men and women terms such as “baby killers” .. and we know the military is paid for with our tax money... would you entertain such anti-military folks today that would feel that a honor guard or any type of military presence be excluded from any public project? Even typing this …. The NYPD killed a young African man a few years ago. Some ridiculous amount of rounds used to kill a unarmed man....

      There are those in the African American, Hispanic, and even poor White community that view NYPD as symbols of oppression and hatred..... How do you think they will feel to see a memorial that included items from the NYPD?

      July 28, 2011 at 8:04 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      “To have mutual respect does not mean that we put away who we are or what we do just to save others feelings.”

      No, it means you compromise. How will this cross not being installed at the WTC Memorial impact your belief? Will it cause you to doubt your faith? Will it cause you to stop being a Christian? Will the absence cause you harm? Because it will cause harm to people who aren’t Christian and don’t appreciate the symbol of the cross. On one hand, no ill effects to you. On the other, ill affects to someone who doesn’t believe the way you do. Which side to err on?

      “Mutual respect is not what you are speaking of. Yours is a method of ole' fashion censorship.”

      No, I’m calling for the observance of the law and the consideration of non-Christians. I am not telling Christians they cannot be Christian. I am not telling them that they cannot pray.

      “…do you feel that the Cross Beams would make the memorial a church?”

      No, I think the cross would indicate that only Christian’s considerations are important at that site when they aren’t.

      “I counter that with the tax dollars of those that see it as a symbol of peace and comfort.”

      This is the part you are not getting. Yes, the tax dollars of people that see the cross as a symbol of peace and comfort. But ALSO the tax dollars of people who do not. Now, if some church would like to come forward, pay for the installation, the lighting, and the upkeep of the area the cross will be in, that’s one thing. So far, no takers.

      “Should one tax payer count more than the other?”

      You are essentially saying that the tax dollars of those that see it as a symbol of peace and comfort do. All of your arguments come back to this. You keep pressing their feelings while ignoring the feelings of others.

      July 29, 2011 at 4:21 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Pfeffernusse – Dude... we need to stick to one thread... this going around reply respond reply respond.. is getting tiresome. Its like we are saying the same thing 4 or 5 different places 😀

      Ok, real quick on this one …

      >>>”No, it means you compromise. “

      If your idea of compromise is that it not be in the memorial and mine is that it be in the memorial … what is your plan to compromise?

      We have both stated our reasons but you desire a compromise. What is your half way point to "in or out? "

      I will wait. I will hint that a plain “out” response is to think folks are stupid and accept compromise as it being done your way only.

      Other than that.... maybe a single thread to keep this going 🙂

      July 30, 2011 at 4:57 am |
    • pfeffernusse

      "what is your plan to compromise?"

      Either find a Christian organization willing to pay for the istallation and upkeep or find a location very close by (St. Paul's Chapel comes to mind) where the cross can still be at ground zero, but in a more appropriate location.

      July 30, 2011 at 6:33 pm |
  5. Jimbob

    I find it funny that ATHEIST .......find christians ammusing. I mean, if you dont believe in a god then fine...but stop being intolerent towards those that do. Its the joke of the century to always see atheist on these forums talking about something that they DONT BELIEVE IN .stop wasting your time..go hug a damn tree or something!!!

    July 27, 2011 at 7:01 pm |
    • Some Young Guy

      Well, not everyone is Christian, I am sure there were Atheists and people who were non christian in the trade centers as well.

      July 27, 2011 at 7:27 pm |
    • Sarah Bonner

      You know, "tree hugging" and Christianity are not exclusive, right? Cuz I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't tell us to go out and defile the Earth because God's going to come along behind and pick up our mess like a mom picks up dirty socks.

      July 27, 2011 at 7:28 pm |
    • Clyde M

      How is it "intolerant" to ask you not to use PUBLIC FUNDS to support your private expressions of religious belief?

      You want to fund your own expressions? Fine. You want to have a church? Fine. You want to put Jesus fish on your car, menorahs in your windows, or wear a star and crescent on your shirt? Fine. But why should you get public funds to do those things?

      It is not intolerant to ask that our secular government be kept secular and not take ANY stand, pro or con, with regards to religion. It should remain entirely separate, and thus entirely neutral, on the subject.

      July 27, 2011 at 9:55 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      @Jimbob, atheists are not being intolerant. They just want to be left alone to not believe. That’s difficult when Christians try to pass laws based on their interpretation of the Bible. It’s difficult when everything in society affirms Christianity (unavoidable but annoying). It’s difficult when Christians want to use my money to represent their faith.

      July 28, 2011 at 1:51 pm |
  6. Reality

    If Romney wins the election, the cross will be replaced by the golden, horn-blowing Moroni!!! Priceless 🙂 🙂 🙂

    July 27, 2011 at 6:22 pm |
  7. Thomas Mc

    America isn't a Christian nation, it's a Capitalist nation. The symbol of that religion is the $, not the cross. The cross signifies self-sacrifice, something very few Americans are willing to even consider.

    July 27, 2011 at 5:33 pm |
    • PRISM 1234

      Thomas , your comment is speaking a profound truth!

      It is truly a tragic reality that the concept of self-sacrifice is something very few Americans are willing to even consider, but it all stems from the fact that America has bowed down to god named Mammon!

      But the consequences are comming, and are already evident....

      July 28, 2011 at 1:52 pm |
    • Jesus Potter, Harry Christ

      "he cross signifies self-sacrifice, something very few Americans are willing to even consider."

      What total BS. Try telling that to all of the people that have and still serving in the military, the volunteer fire fighters, those that volunteer and do good through foundations all across America. Nice judgment moron so you must not be a Christian.

      July 28, 2011 at 1:57 pm |
  8. Mark from Middle River

    Doc –

    The way I believe that folks look at it and maybe it is more difficult for Atheist to understand is that the cross beams represent a place that Christians found comfort in. It is that, and that only.

    Did you see a few days ago they lowered the ladder 7 truck into the museum for display. This was the truck where all eleven firefighters were killed when the towers came down. I know, from a visit to the site a year or so ago, they already had a damaged postal truck and police car in a temporary display. Hopefully these two vehicles will be in the museum as well.

    The point is, would you walk into the museum... view the ladder truck.... see that it was Ladder 7 …. would you consider that the museum was dedicated to the fire personnel of Ladder 7 and those firefighters alone? Would you hold the view, knowing that there were hundreds of dead firemen the museum was choosing to forget the were there and that they did not exist, placing prominence to the men of Ladder 7 only?

    How about this Doc, I do not believe there will be a ambulance or other first responders vehicles. Do you believe that the government is saying that they were not there?

    Tullulah.

    >>>“Why do you think that the loss was greater for Christian families than it was for the families of the other people of faiths who died on 9/11?Why do you think that the greatest place of prominence should be given to the symbol of one faith when people of many faiths have suffered? ”

    Good morning Tutllulah. Can you show me where you felt that I said that the loss was greater for Christian families? I do not wish to think that I am dealing with the nuttier sect of Atheism with you, so please identify where you think I said that and I will gladly respond.

    I will help you out …. or completely torpedo and destroy your argument and post though 🙂

    You said, today : >>>“Why do you think that the greatest place of prominence”

    Yesterday, Tullulah …. at 10:48am … I said :

    “Mark from Middle River It's early. The cross should stand at the memorial. Not in a prominent display, such as front in center when you arrive at the center, but it still does have a place.”
    So, now that I am waking up again I have to take time out of my morning to help un-cloud or help you understand what your hate and fear of those of Faith gets you. As they say, assumption is the Mother of All ..F'ups.

    To both of you. Well not so much Doc because his or her post was more refreshing. I hope once or many times, in each life, folks go to a museum. Doc, Tullulah and any others that have a issue with the cross beams, when you go to a museum, how often is one piece of art or history ever been “prominently” displayed. I am not a huge art person, I have been to the New York Art museum, Guggenheim and other small venues. I also have been to almost all of the Smithsonian in Washington DC. When items are placed in venues such a museum they are not normally placed in prominence with one item being held that much above others. The sheer size of Ladder 7 and the cross beams might be the only factor that could be seen as giving prominence but then the complainer would really be grabbing at straws.

    The WTC museum is a collection of items and scenes from that horrible month. None higher than the other but all something special and unique enough, for people to remember scenes from those days. I will say again...Tullulah... I could see a issue with the cross being placed in the immediate entrance to the museum but since it was there, important and a great deal of comfort to many workers and emergency personnel that considered themselves Christians, it deserves its place in the museum. To excluded the cross beams is to say it was not there and to attempt to write something out of history.

    July 27, 2011 at 2:08 pm |
  9. TC

    Why is this a story? This is part of the atheist agenda and a failed agenda at that. Whenever you have deny or tear down others to justify your beliefs is a worthless and failed agenda. Atheists claim to be so smart but are actually some of the dumbest people I've ever met and is definitely evidenced by most of the comments they leave on CNN forums.

    July 27, 2011 at 1:53 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      So, to “deny or tear down others to justify your beliefs” would be…what? Perhaps insisting that symbols of your particular faith be displayed any and everywhere? Trying to rewrite history to suit your religious bias? Declaring that there is something wrong with people who don’t believe in your version of God? Worthless and failed agendas like that?

      July 27, 2011 at 2:06 pm |
    • Tal

      i lol'd at this post

      July 27, 2011 at 4:54 pm |
  10. Trouble

    But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
    15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

    July 27, 2011 at 1:48 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      There you go. Quoting the Bible is sure to convince non-believers to believe.

      July 27, 2011 at 2:08 pm |
    • Jimbob

      Very well spoken. Atheist and others who deny gods existance will never understand and that is the sad part. Gods wisdom is spiritually understood........and we cant know this unless we dig and really live our lives according to his word and what he said. The REALLY sad part is , so many people will die thinking they are right only to find themselves in hell......and an ETERNITY to think about what *they could of done* :*(

      July 27, 2011 at 6:55 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      @Jimbob, what if the Hindus are right? You will have lived your whole life living according to the Abrahamic God’s word. You will have lived thinking you are right only to find yourself reincarnated as a fish for your transgressions.

      July 28, 2011 at 2:13 pm |
  11. tready

    There is a big difference in being an athiest,with no belief in god. and those that are anti-religious,to have a problem with a memorial for those to come to and pray if they are religious is forcing your views on others, much like athiests love to say religious people do to them. If you dont like it , dont go there, if your an athiest your not going to pray there anyway. If you find a symbol of the love of god offensive thats more than just being an athiest....alot more....

    July 27, 2011 at 12:30 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      I’m having trouble understanding why Christians are having so much trouble understanding the Establishment Clause. You do realize that it works in your favor as well, right? It prevents the government from taxing you and telling you how to run matters in your church. For that protection, you have to understand that you cannot represent your religious agenda in public places where people who don’t share your faith will be. This memorial site is a public place. I have every right to go there because my tax dollars funded it. Putting a cross on the site implies that only Christians died there and only Christians are welcome there. That is wrong.

      July 27, 2011 at 2:18 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Test- Post is not appearing. New way of awaiting moderation?

      July 27, 2011 at 3:17 pm |
  12. Amit-Atlanta-USA

    While not discounting the lack of cohesion between RESTRICTIVE ISLAMIC PRINCIPLES with Norway's TOLERANT PROGRESSIVE CULTURE, it may be time to take an UN-BIASED, REALISTIC LOOK at the benefits of allowing large number of these UNADAPTABLE, WELFARE MIGRANTS into Norway.

    July 27, 2011 at 10:47 am |
    • Amit-Atlanta-USA

      Sorry, this comment did not belong here.....My apologies!

      July 27, 2011 at 10:53 am |
  13. Katmoan

    @ Free – It's convoluted because it is a "me complex" belief policy. If "I" don't believe then "I" will do whatever "I" want to do. It's followers believe in nothing but pleasing self. It is a chaotic and unreliable form of socialism. It's unrealistic. Jesus was nailed to the cross by others of the same convoluted belief ideals. I'm not judging, I'm just joining in on the debate and holding up what I believe in, which is God. There isn't one part of me that thinks that we just happened here out of nothing. The universe, the way our earth provides us with what we need, the way our bodies seemingly work on their own, and the fact that we have the ability to think for ourselves. Logic isn't your right. It's your gift. Enjoy it, but please don't misuse it.

    July 27, 2011 at 10:41 am |
    • Laughing

      So many questions, so little space. I think you're saying the followers of atheism (?) are not interested in anything but pleasing ourselves? If that is the case, my I add that regardless of what religion you are, at the end of the day, isn't most things that you do in the goal of pleasing yourself? You can dress it up and claim you want to please god, but the stuff you do is only to make you feel good and get a ticket into heaven. Furthermore, You think that in a world that a god isn't present would be chaos, but why is that exactly? Is it impossible to police ourselves at all? Heck, we've been doing it for 1000's of years, why do we need some invisible inforcer?
      I have a question for you: Do you believe in adaptation? Really, it relates to your post, I'm just curious though, do you think we can adapt to our surroundings or do you think god made us perfectly and we shouldn't change?

      Lastly, how do you misuse logic?

      July 27, 2011 at 11:07 am |
    • pfeffernusse

      @Katmoan, I answered this the previous time you mentioned it, so I’ll put it here again. Laughing also gave and excellent answer.

      Atheism is about forming one’s own opinions based on their logic and the evidence presented. It’s about knowledge. There is no “me complex”. Atheists understand that they live in a society and that cooperation and mutual respect are the best means of achieving a successful society.

      I am an atheist. I hold myself to a high standard of behavior. I don’t cheat, steal, kill, and I try not to lie. Not because I’m afraid of eternal judgement from an angry sky daddy, but because it’s the right thing to do. I don’t need fear to guide how I act. I was raised well by parents who taught me the value of honesty and respect. I’m a good person because being a good person is an honorable goal. I know that I am not alone among atheists.

      I’ve found that a great many people (mostly Christians) have this idea that atheists are some kind of godless, anarchic, baby-eating terror mob. The reality is far from the myth. I respect your right to believe in God and Jesus. I will defend that right until my end. All I ask is that you, in turn, respect MY right not to believe. Don’t try to pass faith-based laws that impact me personally. And don’t insult me by saying that just because I don’t believe in God I am some kind of amoral monster.

      July 27, 2011 at 12:19 pm |
  14. Amit-Atlanta-USA

    I am a born Hindu, an atheist, but have great faith in the positive influence of all religions (Except one!). I strongly believe America is the greatest nation on earth today, largely b'coz of its tolerant, all inclusive dominant CHRISTIAN ETHOS. I don't for a second believe that we should lose that!

    I PASSIONATELY SUPPORT ERECTING A HOLY CROSS AT THE WTC SITE!

    Amit-Atlanta-USA

    July 27, 2011 at 9:08 am |
    • Amit-Atlanta-USA

      BTW, I am also a recent immigrant to this great nation.

      July 27, 2011 at 9:08 am |
    • Amit-Atlanta-USA

      I am an atheist ONLY in the sense I don't believe in god. Short of that I follow all the good preachings in all major world religions incl. Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, Sikhism, Buddhism, etc. I will do that IF EVER I find something in ISLAM ALSO!!!!!

      July 27, 2011 at 9:20 am |
    • pfeffernusse

      There is nothing wrong with using religious writings to inform your opinion and behavior. The problems arise when people think that THEIR religion is the only one all people should be following. The issue here is that Christianity is being represented at a site were A) not everyone who died there was Christian and B) this site is supported with Federal money.

      July 27, 2011 at 12:28 pm |
  15. Bonnie

    Only those who are bored like hell and have absolutely nothing to do complain against Christianity in USA.

    July 27, 2011 at 3:55 am |
    • i wonder

      Hah! Says the one who makes at least 50 posts a day here, complaining about everything. You goofball.

      July 27, 2011 at 4:10 am |
    • Bonnie

      @Iwonder, do you read my posts? I try to remind my beloved Americans what the world was like before the darkness of godlessness took over the American land... There was once a world the brainwashed Generation Y had no idea about.

      July 27, 2011 at 4:15 am |
    • Bonnie

      Elsewhere, people are dying to get the Christian faith and the pages of one Bible. And these fattened, bored American atheists thoroughly spoiled by the Christian goodness are persecuting Christians in the Christian nation USA. No picture is more ridiculous.

      July 27, 2011 at 4:19 am |
    • i wonder

      Bonnie ... and atheists are trying to enlighten their beloved humankind that there is no-one out there to save us or to fix our mistakes. We must do the best we can to live together in peace and health and happiness.

      July 27, 2011 at 4:25 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Bonnie
      When waxing nostaligic, what era conjures up such rosy images of a shining, god-fearing nation for you?
      The beginning of the 20th century, when disease was rampant, infant mortality high and the most atrocious war in history just on the horizon?
      The Great Depression the followed the war?
      Perhaps the second world war was a more idyllic time.
      Perhaps the 50's and 60's when the threat of nuclear annihilation loomed ever-present, McCarthyism had neighbours ratting each other out, and black people were still second class citizens.
      And wasn't vietnam a fun time for everyone?
      Or do you long for the return of Falwell's Moral Majority from the 80's?

      July 27, 2011 at 8:44 am |
    • Laughing

      @Doc
      No! Don't you know that the world was always like veggietales and then at one point it switched to leave it to beaver, and then the satantic atheists with their ipods and their penicillin came and changed everything to what the world is today, literally hell on earth. You just don't notice it because you have the AC on.

      July 27, 2011 at 9:24 am |
    • J.W

      I am thinking that Bonnie is an atheist trying to stir up anti-Christian remarks.

      July 27, 2011 at 9:29 am |
    • Laughing

      @J.W

      I've been wondering the same thing, she seems to be so vehemetly christian it's a characiture. I'm sort of glad she makes the comments though, not to stir anti-christian remarks, but to at least give a little perspective that there actually legitiment people out there who completely agree with her.

      July 27, 2011 at 9:43 am |
    • J.W

      It makes it hard for people like me. I have to defend myself against atheists and the people like her. LOL

      July 27, 2011 at 9:47 am |
    • Laughing

      @J.W

      We all have our crosses to bear (as it were), you have people to contend with like Bonnie/Beatrice/Zelda ect.... we have Willaim Demuth who insists to prove believers right that atheists have exactly 0 morals. I think it gives these discussions a little zest.

      July 27, 2011 at 10:52 am |
    • J.W

      Yeah I try to avoid talking to the atheists that are just like "What is wrong with you Christians? Are you so stupid you cant see your beliefs are fake?" I get annoyed to when I make a perfectly valid point about the Bible, and someone says "well maybe you should read the Bible more and you wouldnt come up with such nonsense." Then I say well show me a verse that proves me wrong and then I never get another response.

      July 27, 2011 at 11:00 am |
    • Laughing

      @J.W

      I hear that, I can't stand when I make a good point and then just have a verse tossed at me that has no bearing on the converation whatsoever, or my personal favorite is when a debate gets mired in particular wording of a statement and not the content of the statement at all.

      July 27, 2011 at 11:10 am |
    • J.W

      I think alot of Bible verses can be taken out of context and often dont relate to the topics. When having moral discussions, I never look at anything in the Old Testament, because I think that is just basically all history and Jewish tradition. Even in the New Testament there are issues of translation, plus some things may just be difference in the culture of the time. That why I say I concentrate more on things that Jesus said and did. He taught to help the poor, feed the hungry, not to judge others, etc.

      July 27, 2011 at 11:23 am |
    • Laughing

      If only that were true for everyone. It seems to me that jesus really did mean for people to take away those morals and be like that, but it's hard to believe that most people actually think that's the jesus they follow. Can you, along with others that agree wtih out, make a revised bible that only teach those morals and separate the old testment from it? It would help a lot of people could stop giving so much power to the old testement and still call themselves christians, because that right there has and still does baffle me. If jesus really nulled the old testment then why is it even included in the bible, why isn't it sold separately? And why can believers still take verses from it and use it if jesus told them that it's all nulled once he came?

      July 27, 2011 at 11:32 am |
    • J.W

      I know there are Old Testaments and New Testaments that are sold separately. Unfortunately, there are probably alot of people who disagree with my view of the Old Testament. I still read the OT I am just more concerned about modeling my behavior after Jesus, although the Old Testament did have the 10 commandments, which Jesus said should be followed, but he simplified it to love God above all things and love your neighbor as yourself. I suppose for some the Old Testament goes along with their person views of things such as the death penalty and war and other things. I think alot of Christians even believe that the Bible should be taken completely literally, to the point that the earth is 10000 years old or that everything happened in exactly 7 days, etc.

      July 27, 2011 at 11:44 am |
    • Laughing

      Oh Yeah, we've seen enough people on this comment section to prove that there are people out there who firmly believe the bible is literal in all aspects. But still, I mean for people who follow the teachings of jesus, apart from the 10 commandments, why was the OT even added in the first place? Or at the very least give a notification at the beginning of the OT and say "FOR HISTORICAL PURPOSES ONLY", I know that you are the exception to the rule, but why? It sounds like you follow jesus's teachings more closely than other so-called christians and yet your a radical in a sense, I don't understand

      July 27, 2011 at 11:48 am |
    • pfeffernusse

      @Bonnie, what “darkness of godlessness took over the American land”? Do you mean before Europeans came, drove the native peoples off their land, killed them, and lied to them? Is that the time you are referring to? I will remind you that the Dark Ages weren’t called such because there was no electricity. It was because the Catholic Church had an iron grip on Europe, torturing and killing everyone who did toe the party line.

      So, atheists are persecuting Christians, hm? Are they rounding them up and putting them into death camps? Are they burning down their churches? Are they dragging them from their homes in the middle of the night and “disappearing” them? No? Then I hardly think Christians are being oppressed. Get down off the cross. We need the wood.

      July 27, 2011 at 12:38 pm |
    • AGuest9

      The phrases "darkness of godlessness took over the American land" and "thoroughly spoiled by the Christian goodness" leave me nauseated.

      We must look no further than the radical right and their evangelical backers to see "Christian goodness", as proposals to slash social programs which provide a safety-net to young and old wait to be unleashed on the helpless of the nation. We watch what some Muslims call "Crusades" continue in Afghanistan, Iraq and now Libya. Are they 100% wrong? Was foreign policy in the early 2000s based upon religious dogma, not to mention corporate greed? It would seem so. These crises weren't brought about because of "godlessness", but quite the contrary. They were brought about as greed disguised as christian and patriotic "values".

      July 27, 2011 at 1:43 pm |
  16. Bonnie

    NASA could not set up a base on the moon because these atheists wasted American energy...

    July 27, 2011 at 3:54 am |
    • i wonder

      Doh! I thought it was because "God" didn't want NASA setting up shop on his moon... or was it Satan that kept them away? Your imaginary characters are so odd and fickle.

      July 27, 2011 at 4:05 am |
    • Bonnie

      @Iwonder: Repent your blasphemy, you stupid atheist.

      July 27, 2011 at 4:20 am |
    • pfeffernusse

      Now, now, Bonnie. You are called by Christ to love your enemies and to not judge.

      July 27, 2011 at 12:45 pm |
  17. Bonnie

    America is Christian. If anyne doesn't like the cross on American soil, let him move out of the country.

    July 27, 2011 at 3:34 am |
    • Atheist b/c Truth is Better Than Fiction

      Wow, suffering a severe case of delusions??? America is NOT a Christian Nation. It is a secular nation as it should be (separation of church and state plays heavily here). Studies have proven that those who are Atheists tend to be more intelligent; more open-minded; better educated in general (noted in Atheism, Secularity, and Well-Being: How the Findingsof Social Science Counter Negative Stereotypes andAssumptions by Phil Zuckerman*). Educate yourself and stop reading fairy tales...they only stand to corrupt the dumb. You claim to be a good Christian but yet you use threats that obviously do not apply to non-believers when we do not believe in a hell. Nice God you have there...he tells the men to control their women; beat their children and orders mass killings. You're the one with the issue not the Atheists!

      July 27, 2011 at 11:04 am |
  18. MoreUrgent

    According to the Bible, cross worshippers (= idol worshippers) are stupid.
    More serious is though, that they will NOT have everlasting life; idol worship is something disgusting to God.

    Therefore, the cross has NO place in public life – not anywhere, it should not even be seen on churches, not from the outside at least, it's an eyesore. Inside, those 'disgusting dungy idol' worshippers (that's what the Bible calls them) can do what they want, but in public: NO CROSS !

    July 27, 2011 at 2:31 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Wow dude....

      July 27, 2011 at 3:15 am |
  19. MoreUrgent

    fred:
    contrary to wide belief THE CROSS IS NOT A CHRISTIAN SYMBOL AT ALL, it is purely pagan, and the original word in the text you quoted is beam, or piece of wood. Jesus did not die on a c r o s s but on a torture stake, an upright pole, a piece for paling.
    The cross is a pre-Christian religious symbold, stands for the false god of Tammuz (T-shape) of as a phallus representation which still can be found today in Egyptian tombs.
    The cross was introduced to the Roman Catholic Religion by its founder, Constatine the Great, a massmurderer and worshiper of Zeus. The Roman Catholic Religion is NOT a Christian religion, not according to the Bible, anyways ... not matter what it calls itself.

    July 27, 2011 at 1:07 am |
    • fred

      I have no problem with seeing the physical cross as a pole or tree as it is only symbolic. "Cross" where Christ was raised up upon, "cross" where the sin of the world is removed, "cross" a burden Christ and followers take upon their shoulders, "cross" the defining point for man and his relationship with God, "cross" the fullfillment of scripture, "cross" where God revealed his love for the lost, "cross" forgiveness , the "cross" where the full uglyness of mans heart was revealed in suffering they put on Him. Christ was resurected from the "cross" a hope in his promise.

      July 27, 2011 at 1:42 am |
    • MoreUrgent

      fred
      Let's be honest about this: the CROSS has become an IDOL (you call it a symbol) and that, again, is completely against the Bible: Exodus chapter 20 (commonly known as the 10 Commandments), verse 4 and 5
      "Do not make idols that look like anything in the sky or on earth (and that would include a cross, of course) or in the ocean under the earth. Don't bow down before them and worship idols. I am the LORD your God, and I demand jealously your exclusive devotion. "
      The Bible clearly states that all idol worshipers cannot have everlasting life.

      July 27, 2011 at 2:07 am |
    • fred

      Agreed, it has often taken on attributes of a man made Idol. I like the old testament where God said not to make an alter out of man cut stone so that man would not pride himself in what he has done or lose himself in his work verses the things of God.

      July 27, 2011 at 2:34 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      I heard that a people found comfort at this artifact left over from the rubble after the attack. Not sure about Pagans and all, but if that is what you see in it then more power to yah 🙂

      July 27, 2011 at 3:21 am |
    • tready

      You views are very twisted,of course the cross is a symbol,if your view is what "logical" thinking gets you,Im glad I want no part of it. I'LL pray for you......

      July 27, 2011 at 12:42 pm |
  20. fred

    The more atheists try and destroy Christ the more their actions actually prove the Bible correct. In 1 Corinthians we have "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."
    It is a simple steel beam that took on a powerful presence because it reminded Christians of what Christ has done in their lives yet the response of those who filled this suit is reminiscent of the Sanhedrin 2,000 years ago that also tried to remove Christ from their city. What is it about Christ and that power which still inflames passions today? If Christ died or never existed as some claim why does he command the same power and attention He did 2,000 years ago? A look around tells you that everything Christ said has happened so there is no reason to think His predictions of tomorrow will not also come true. To the scientist we have a series of indisputable observations from Christ that remain true, is this not called a law. You do not oppose the law of gravity so why not at least give the spiritual law a fair shake and see if it holds up.

    July 27, 2011 at 12:55 am |
    • tallulah13

      Putting a blatantly christian symbol in a place of prominence where people of many beliefs were murdered is disgusting and immoral, especially because the murderers were radicals who acted in the name of religion. Respect and remember the dead, but please, for once, leave religion out of this. It's not appropriate.

      July 27, 2011 at 1:06 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Tallulah, the argument goes to how we view Faith and religion. Your view is not held by everyone. Many see Faith and Religion as while having its negative history to many good acts, they just can not escape. Should we allow someone outside of the Faith define who we are? Is it right when the 700 club does the same to Atheist?

      You respect those that found comfort in this artifact and stop trying to paint the world and society with you defining who is immoral and who is not. Part of being in a diverse society is to accept that there are those who may not look or believe the same as you do. Its time to expand and find your way to co-existence.

      l'chaim

      July 27, 2011 at 1:21 am |
    • fred

      tallulah13,
      Terrorists called out to their pagan God and killed 3,000 in a Christian nation. What better sign can you imagine? Twisted religions and twisted minds calling upon their man made Gods to bring evil upon others. Read what Christ said and see the truth. The cross showed just how far man and twisted religion are from the true God. That cross needs to be in our face as a daily reminder that we need to turn our lives and nation around and reflect the goodness, kindness and mercy of God to all we encounter.

      July 27, 2011 at 1:26 am |
    • tallulah13

      If all are not equally represented, none should be represented. I am not picking on any single religion, or even religion itself, It's the fact that this is a place where religion was abused. Why compound the abuse by elevating a single religion over all others? People of many faiths, and even some atheists died here. Can you put down your religion for just a minute and act like a decent human being?

      July 27, 2011 at 1:31 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      “If all are not equally represented, none should be represented. ”

      The problem with that is that the item, the cross beams, were where a bunch of workers and victims found comfort. That the other Faiths did not do the same should not mean that this piece of the WTC history should be excluded?

      July 27, 2011 at 1:53 am |
    • Tallulah13

      By the way, Mark– I actually don't care what people believe, as long as they are respectful about it. I have a catholic sister and a jewish sister and we get along great. Most of my family members are very religious. I have friend of many different religions. I judge people by their actions, not by their faith. I became an atheist after a great deal of contemplation, not as an act of rebellion.

      And yes, I think it is immoral to elevate one faith over all others in a place where people of many faiths died, and where the family members of those people will go to seek comfort. Those are my morals: Respect for all who were lost, not just the chosen few.

      July 27, 2011 at 2:00 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Tallulah- Then it comes down to what you see when you view this artifact. I and many see it just as a place that Christians and possibly others of Faith gathered to find strength in their faith. If you see it as elevating then all you are attempting to do is exclude a aspect of Faith from its place in American history. Part of respecting all who were lost means even those who you have a issue with.

      July 27, 2011 at 2:17 am |
    • MoreUrgent

      The LAW OF GOD = THE LAW OF THE BIBLE clearly states, that all idols (including the cross) and all idol worshippers (to identify just look in their churches where they pray in front of the crosses) are something D-I-S-G-U-S-T-I-N-G in God's eyes and people who worship (wooden crosses) are called 'stupid'.
      Isaiah chapter 44, verse 14 to 20
      Either cedar, cypress, oak, or any tree from the forest
      may be chosen.
      Or even a pine tree planted by the woodcarver
      and watered by the rain.

      15Some of the wood is used to make a fire for heating or for cooking.

      One piece is made into an idol,

      then the woodcarver bows down and worships it.

      16He enjoys the warm fire and the meat that was roasted over the burning coals.

      17Afterwards, he bows down to worship the wooden idol.

      "Protect me!" he says.

      "You are my god."

      18Those who worship idols are stupid and blind! 19They don't have enough sense to say to themselves, "I made a fire with half of the wood and cooked my bread and meat on it. Then I made something worthless with the other half. Why worship a block of wood?"

      20How can anyone be stupid enough to trust something that can be burned to ashes? [a] No one can save themselves like that. Don't they realize that the idols they hold in their hands are not really gods?

      July 27, 2011 at 2:27 am |
    • fred

      MoreUrgent,
      That is not what is happening here but, over time it is possible some people may forget the purpose of the memorial was a reminder and a comfort not a God.

      July 27, 2011 at 2:43 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @mark
      "I and many see it just as a place that Christians and possibly others of Faith gathered to find strength in their faith"

      Mark, review your statment above.
      To others reading it, it indicates a myopic view, concerned only with your fellow christians.
      A lot of New Yorkers of all races, creeds, and colours gathered together to find comfort at the bottom of a bottle. Should there be a giant shot glass monument at ground zero?
      Some would say that getting drunk isn't a positive coping mechanism – and some might feel the same way about talking to the gods.

      July 27, 2011 at 8:55 am |
    • tallulah13

      Mark, how do you not understand? Why do you think that the loss was greater for christian families than it was for the families of the other people of faiths who died on 9/11? Why do you think that the greatest place of prominence should be given to the symbol of one faith when people of many faiths have suffered? Is it impossible for you to be fair? Is it impossible for you to be compassionate? If christians find this cross to be comforting, they can view it at a nearby church. The memorial should be for all who lost their lives, not just the christians. Is that so very hard to understand?

      July 27, 2011 at 10:53 am |
    • pfeffernusse

      @fred, no atheists are trying to destroy Christ. The problem arises when Christians try to make their personal religious beliefs law. That has NO place in the United States because we are NOT a Christian country. We are a secular nation that is supposed to stand for all people. Not just the ones you believe like you.

      Also, the terrorists that struck on 9/11 were not pagans. They worship the same God you do. “Allah” is Arabic for “God”. They believe in Abraham, Moses, the Exodus, and everything else spelled out in the Old Testament. I know you want to think you have nothing in common with them, but you do.

      Oh, and the cross shouldn’t be in our face in public places. The US is a secular country. We have something called the Establishment Clause. It prevents the state from imposing an official religion on the country, which protects all citizens as well as all the places of worship. You’re welcome.

      July 27, 2011 at 1:44 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      @Mark From Middle River, you said, “Part of being in a diverse society is to accept that there are those who may not look or believe the same as you do.” You are exactly correct. This is why no religious symbols should stand at this memorial place. To respect all the people of different faiths (and lack of faith), no religious symbols should stand.

      July 27, 2011 at 1:45 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>“You are exactly correct. This is why no religious symbols should stand at this memorial place.”

      So you want folks of “Faith” to accept that the only way to be fair to all groups of “Faith” is that no example that those of “Faith” died or suffered during the attacks?

      Interesting. Stupid to think that any group or culture would accept such a argument and allow themselves to be written out of history. Tell me do you take people of Faith as ones that would accept such?

      Tell me, is it your plan that the memorial site just be shown as a place where Faith and Religion... the acts of the hijackers... be shown as the only symbol and instance of Faith those days? I think I get what some of your rabid Atheist are thinking.

      July 27, 2011 at 2:15 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      Mark, I’ve been patient with you. I’ve taken you at face value and assumed your heart is in the right place. No need to get snippy.

      I would hope that people of differing faiths would have enough respect for the tragedy and loss of life that they would not insist that their particular symbol be represented. There does not need to be a religious representation at this site for the precise reason that all the people that died were truly reflective of America—a diverse melting pot of race, ethnicities, and faiths.

      No one is trying to write anyone out of history. As I have told you repeatedly, an enormous steel cross on the site implies that only Christians died there and that it is a Christian site. More people than atheists would take offense to that. This was a tragedy for the ENTIRE nation, not just Christians. As such, this site should represent the ENTIRE nation, not just Christians.

      July 27, 2011 at 2:30 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>"As I have told you repeatedly, an enormous steel cross on the site implies that only Christians died there and that it is a Christian site. "

      pfeffernusse- Be honest, we have seen snipe type of postings, if you can't handle what I threw at you then I suggest you head over to the iCarly or whatever blog is on the Nickelodeon website.

      Your argument is that since the Cross Beams imply to "YOU" that the site is a Christian site, then "YOU" feel that it implies that only Christians died and suffered at Ground Zero.

      Tell, me pfeffernusse,... there is a huge Fire Truck representing Ladder company 7, in the memorial.... do "you" also imply in your head that the memorial is dedicated only to the squad of Ladder 7 New York? What about the ambo companies, whose members died, I have not heard of a full ambolance being placed in the memorial.

      Again, be honest with yourself, your saying that since all Faiths were not represented then none of them should. In the debating arena, you have argued well but it is a bit flat.

      Tell me this. The statue they were going to put up of the three white firefighters. Some one objected because it was three white males and did not represent a image of America. Is that right? I am a African American and I thought it was extremely wrong and political correctness fully gone amuck. It requires that from this point on if we are to honor any group of people that did anything speical we had better have a diverse group or what ever good act will never be honored or memorialized.... or remembered.

      Opposition of this cross is just that, as if it never happened. That is the definition of "writing" someone out of history.

      July 27, 2011 at 2:48 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      @ Mark from Middle River, so, I see that I was wrong to assume that you were genuinely curious and asking with good intentions. All righty. Good to know.

      My argument is that the cross is a very specific, very Christian symbol. First of all, it is in a public place, so by the standards of this country, it does not belong there. Second of all, what about the Jewish families that go there to remember their loved ones? What about the Hindus? What about the Muslims? The Buddhists? For devout people of other faiths, they would likely find their loved ones being memorialized by a symbol they do not follow to be insulting.

      Fire trucks represent fire trucks. They don’t represent a specific firehouse (nor did I say they did) like a cross represents Christianity. A cross is very specific. A fire truck is not. The vehicles placed at the memorial represent all the public servants who work in those fields. Not just the house they dispatched from.

      I don’t know how much clearer I can get. In a public space, supported by public dollars, religious symbols have no place.

      I don’t agree with the decision about the statue. I think it should have been put up. If some PC whiners really had their panties in a wad, the sculptor could have easily crafted faces to represent more than one ethnic group. I would not have agreed with it, but whatever. Now, if one of those figures erecting the flag had been Jesus, I would have had a problem.

      “Opposition of this cross is just that, as if it never happened. That is the definition of ‘writing’ someone out of history.”

      As if what never happened? I’m still not clear on your point. I don’t see anyone being written out of history. If you can respond politely, I would be interested in clarification.

      July 27, 2011 at 3:09 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Pfeffernusse.

      Let us drop the “good intentions” part, we are just countering and re-countering each other. Its fine but let us continue if you want.

      I have pointed out to you many times that what you feel it implies to you is just that.

      Maybe this will get you to the bridge easier. If they created a cross... sorta, they contracted a outside company to make a golden cross. I mean go with a full Vatican/ cathedral type of cross. Something you can show a invoice that says that the government signed with such and such company in Paris or Vienna and the cross would be shipped to the site and displayed..... while as a Christian I would think that was totally cool.... I would probably side with your argument, that is the government having a cross made for the site.

      I have been trying to understand your argument dude, but pretty much everyone knows that this thing was found and placed by the workers. It was not an act of Congress that said “And we will have a Christian Cross made for the memorial” Most know that many workers of Christian Faith came and prayed and found comfort in it. We are talking about something that was there throughout this crisis.

      Your response to the firetruck. I never said you did say it, but I did use your reasoning to form a similarity between the cross and Ladder 7.

      The answer is that Ladder 7 represents the entire Ladder 7 crew. It shows us that Firemen and women died there, but all know that there will be other displays of emergency personnel who died. What Ladder 7 represents is the men of that truck. It does not place them higher other than all of of the men on that truck died. The Cross Beams does not place Christians who died any higher than others.

      It was just where many of them prayed as they went through their painful work of clean up. Since they are a part of society, since they died and suffered, why not honor ...not a cross....but the Cross Beams they choose as their place of comfort in this tragedy.

      July 27, 2011 at 3:37 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      @ Mark from Middle River, I don’t know what happened to so raise your ire, but there is probably nothing I can do to amend it.

      Okay, yes. I get what you’re saying better. The cross was a found object (hardly surprising, given the way the WTC was constructed). It wasn’t commissioned or paid for. The workers who found it instantly assigned a religious connotation to is (and no, I don’t think they were being mean or anything like this…it’s an emotional place). However, it was blessed by a priest. It is on public property as a symbol of Christianity. That is what I take issue with.

      I’ve read some items, posted in other places, where two Jewish families were affronted by the cross. They felt that their loss was given less consideration. I don’t think the solution is to erect symbols of all faiths. It’s public property.

      I’m not saying that the suffering of Christians that died and did recovery there are less. But neither are they more. A cross implies that they are. And not just by me personally. By a lot of people. Hence the lawsuit. Hence the argument. My feelings on the subject aren’t the most important. Neither are they isolated to me.

      July 27, 2011 at 4:52 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Pfeffernusse.

      >>>“I’m having trouble understanding”

      >>>“I don’t know what happened to so raise your ire,”

      >>>“Okay, yes. I get what you’re saying better.”

      Sigh... pfeffernusse. Well, we can call that progress.

      >>>“However, it was blessed by a priest. ”

      That it was blessed by a priest, maybe you can talk to the Catholics about that. Personally if it gave them comfort during those dark days then it is cool, I feel with a lot of folks. That they did not add a image of Christ nailed to it and just blessed it, shows another example of folks just getting along and working together in that time.

      Your reporting of the Jewish family, if I met them I would say the exact same thing I am saying to you. Until you can bring your self to understand what your protesting to is a small piece of sanuary that many Christians found comfort and not a government erected or created piece of art.

      >>>”I’m not saying that the suffering of Christians that died and did recovery there are less. But neither are they more. “

      I have had a two post get lost in cyberspace, the service says that they are there but I do not see them. Pfeffernusse this answer to this statement of yours is from that big post at the top of the page.

      MMR> “when you go to a museum, how often is one piece of art or history ever been “prominently” displayed. I am not a huge art person, I have been to the New York Art museum, Guggenheim and other small venues. I also have been to almost all of the Smithsonian in Washington DC. When items are placed in venues such a museum they are not normally placed in prominence with one item being held that much above others. The sheer size of Ladder 7 and the cross beams might be the only factor that could be seen as giving prominence but then the complainer would really be grabbing at straws. “

      In such a memorial, no piece is really displayed more prominent than others. Chances are the WTC flag might be a notable exception. When I went to the Smithsonian I saw Dorothy's ruby red shoes on display next to a pair of Prince's purple boots. In the grand scheme of Hollywood history with Prince's movie Purple Rain and the Wizard of OZ, ..I admit it looked odd to see both on display side by side. One was the focus of a movie that many of the country's kids and many kids around the world know of. The other was a worn by a man in a 80s movie that really did not have close the reach of audience. You go around to other museums and you see the same thing. You enter the air and space museum in Washington DC, …. is it the Wright Bros plane the first thing you see...how about The Spirit of St Louis? They are there but if I am correct Glens capsule is the first thing you see. Does that diminish the other two...no. They are there because they are a part of American life. A part of history. When we go around and start to define what is and what is not we are attempting to re-write history. Its wrong.

      >>>”A cross implies that they are. And not just by me personally. By a lot of people. Hence the lawsuit.”

      Yep, a lawsuit, one of the best signs that a person or a group might not have the numbers in support that they think they have. Should be interesting. I think the principals that the Government did not commission the creation of this item and the facts that the workers found it, saved it and it was reported that it gave comfort to the workers, will be the track they will go. Like I said, if the government created it, I would be more on your side.

      I guess my “ire” is that you and a few other Atheist know that the subject of the Faith in a negative aspect of the 9/11 terrorist will be on display and that any symbols of Faith in a positive, the same folks do not want displayed.

      In other words, to some Atheist it is ok to show two planes being flown into a building in the name of God, but it is not ok to show people praying in the name of God for peace and strength.

      l'chaim

      July 27, 2011 at 5:30 pm |
    • Awkward Situations

      The outrage that Christians express when they can't have the symbols of their religion permeate every public venue possible is akin to the outrage Muslims express when drawings of their prophet are displayed.

      Christians are quick to cry foul and claim "religious oppression" when they get called out for trying to sneak past the Establishment Clause. They get really irate when they can't prop up their "eye in the sky" cross in prime real estate where millions of emotionally vulnerable people will be circulating through.

      July 27, 2011 at 6:48 pm |
    • pfeffernusse

      “Sigh... pfeffernusse. Well, we can call that progress.”

      Okay. Good. I honestly have no idea what happened, but I’m willing to play nice if you are.

      “Your reporting of the Jewish family, if I met them I would say the exact same thing I am saying to you. Until you can bring your self to understand what your protesting to is a small piece of sanuary that many Christians found comfort and not a government erected or created piece of art.”

      The government did not commission this cross to be built. But it has been installed in a public place, being maintained with government dollars. In short, the cross itself is a found object but taxpayer money was used to install it in a public location. The space is for all faiths (or no faith) to find a place of comfort. It’s a place for reflection and remembering. That is my, and many peoples, problem with it.

      The cross itself is 20’ tall. It’s to be mounted onto a pedestal, similar to how it is now.
      Fire trucks are very big, but they do not evoke a specific religion. A piece of debris in the shape of a cross, that has been prayed before, blessed, and held up as some kind of representation of the people that lost their lives is inappropriate in a public location. It’s not about the cross size or placement. It’s that it would be there at all.

      I think an excellent solution would be to install it at St. Paul’s Chapel. It is right across the street and, amazingly, survived the destruction of that day. What a more fitting location for what has become widely held as a symbol of Christ? Perhaps in a small garden, with benches so that people can sit, gaze at the cross, and offer whatever prayers they would like. It would still be at Ground Zero. It would be available to anyone who wanted to see it. But people would go there because they were seeking it out. They wouldn’t be going to a public location only to be confronted by it.

      “Yep, a lawsuit, one of the best signs that a person or a group might not have the numbers in support that they think they have.”

      This lawsuit also has the backing of the Coalition for Jewish Concerns, among other groups. For Jewish people, the cross is especially problematic. For centuries, they were persecuted under the banner of the cross. They don’t want what they consider a sign of oppression at the memorial place where their loved ones died.

      “I guess my ‘ire’ is that you and a few other Atheist know that the subject of the Faith in a negative aspect of the 9/11 terrorist will be on display and that any symbols of Faith in a positive, the same folks do not want displayed.”

      I’m treading carefully here, because I don’t know what happened before. I have no objection to positive symbols of faith. I object to symbols of faith in a public space, installed and maintained with public dollars. I don’t know as there are any plans to have any kind of displays about the terrorists’ faith. I hope there aren’t. A mention of who they were and their twisted rationalization is fine. Its history and it’s important not to forget.

      “In other words, to some Atheist it is ok to show two planes being flown into a building in the name of God, but it is not ok to show people praying in the name of God for peace and strength.”

      I have those images seared into my brain. Whenever I see a video clip come on television, I turn away. I have no objections to anyone going to this public space to pray for peace and strength. As members of the public, they are free to use their space as they see fit. But the space itself should be religiously neutral so that ANYone who wants to pray there can feel comfortable.

      I think (and please correct me if I’m wrong) that your issue lies with the idea that you feel that the positive aspects of faith are not being permitted to be displayed in a location where the ugly side of faith killed so many. However, you must understand that not everyone shares your faith or your brand of faith. Their feelings must be considered as well. What you see as a positive symbol of hope and faith, some people see as a violation of our country’s principles or as another negative symbol of faith.

      July 27, 2011 at 6:57 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>"Christians are quick to cry foul and claim "religious oppression"

      Since the story is about how a small sect Atheist wants to stop the WTC Cross ..... It seems that some Atheist have no problem crying foul and crying about oppression.

      July 27, 2011 at 7:03 pm |
    • fred

      We are slipping from a country that once was a Chriastian Nation that accepted all faiths to a secular nation that dispises all faiths in public. A once unified proud strong growing country now a bankrupt divided country. Put up the cross that was there by the workers for inspiration at their expense not the publics. Leave the cross where it is a reminder to a once inspired God fearing nation. Leave the cross as a reminder to the last time this country pulled together and returned to church in droves looking for meaning in life. Leave up the cross as a reminder of what happens when religion is misused by nuts. Leave it up to remind us how far we have moved away from the cross, from mercy, from grace, from love, hope and understanding. Everytime we look at it ask how we can be a better people a better nation.

      July 27, 2011 at 8:36 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Mark, you may not realize this, but there are non-christian people out there who had friends and family murdered by religious fanatics on 9/11. There are people who would go to this memorial to find solace, but would only find that yet more religious fanatics have stolen the spotlight, taking it from those whose lives were lost and putting on their own religion. Can you not see how selfish that is? This should be about bringing Americans together, not alienating them. This should be about comforting all, not just one religious group.

      Putting this cross on this memorial takes the memorial away from the victims and gives it to religion. Hasn't religion done enough to these people?

      July 27, 2011 at 10:50 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>”Mark, you may not realize this, but there are non-christian people out there who had friends and family murdered by religious fanatics on 9/11. “

      Umm, … do tell.... never heard that fact. I thought only Christians died that day. You have touched my heart...

      Come on Tullulah try keep up to speed with the rest of us.

      >>>”There are people who would go to this memorial to find solace, but would only find that yet more religious fanatics have stolen the spotlight, taking it from those whose lives were lost and putting on their own religion. “

      So now folks are religious fanatics? Amazing the broad brush you paint. Is that sorta like when the 700 clubs on our side call Atheist spawns of satan? 🙂

      Sigh … ok Tallulah. Have you ever been to a museum or a memorial similar to the one planed for the WIC memorial? How about a setting such as the Smithsonian, in Washington DC?

      Let me help or back your fears into a corner. In such memorials and pretty much every museum on the planet it is rare for any one item to take the “spotlight”. They just lowered a twelve ton fire truck into the memorial the other day. Are you saying that the Cross Beams is really going to steal the spotlight from something such as that? If anything I would guess that the memorial would be set up like the Smithsonian and to use your line of reasoning, I bet you would feel that the Spirit of Saint Louis could steal the spotlight from the Wright Bros glider or the other way around. Tullulah, the only people who would say such would be those who are such rabid fans of either Limburgh's plane or the Wright Bros to the point that they would feel that the other is just stealing the spotlight.

      I even commented that I would object if the Cross Beams were placed at the doorway but, to say that it does not deserve a place in the memorial is just folks allowing their hatred of those of Faith, to run themselves amuck.

      I will ask you this, since we know that each of the 9/11 terrorist were of Middle Eastern decent, should the memorial be absent of any images of people... Americans and foreigners of Middle Eastern decent, that were effected by the 9/11 attacks?

      Using your reasoning, would the image of one of the known Middle Eastern males that died that day or were a part of the rescue and recovery, cause the families of those who visit the memorial discomfort?

      I am pretty sure, out there somewhere, there are people who feel the way you do about the Cross Beams as others feel about any displays of anyone that might look or speak with the same accents of the terrorist. One of the things most of us learned in grade school Tallulah is that you can't blame an entire group for the actions of a few. You are asking Christians to take a step back because someone might get offended if the Cross Beams might offend. When does it stop Tallulah? How many different groups would love to step up, point their fingers at another group and say... “they should not be included because it offends me” and all will use the reasoning of that it takes away from the memorial.

      The memorial is of images and items that were witnessed those fateful days in September. The Cross Beams brought some folks comfort and peace. Some will see Faith as not being able to do that.

      You asked, hasn't Religion done enough to these people. My answer is that Faith and Religion was at play those days. In a negative way by urging the terrorist to fly the planes into the towers. At the same time, Faith and Religion helped and comforted many more of the peaceful Faithful. Since the horrors of Faith are to be put on display, what is the objection to the joyful peace and comfort that Faith brought to the workers those horrible days?

      July 28, 2011 at 5:25 am |
    • tallulah13

      Okay, Mark. I get it. This piece of metal is more important to you than the feelings of the people who who lost loved ones that day. I bet you wouldn't be fighting for this if by some reason this surviving piece of building structure had been reshaped into a star of david or a crescent moon, or heaven forbid, the flying spaghetti monster. I would be making the exact same arguments as I am now. This memorial doesn't belong to religion. It belongs to the dead, and to those who survived. No one should feel uncomfortable or excluded there.

      July 28, 2011 at 11:07 am |
    • Awkward Situations

      What if instead of a cross they found a scrap piece of metal with what appears to be the outline of a face resembling Jesus? Throw that in the museum too, right?

      July 28, 2011 at 2:01 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>”Okay, Mark. I get it. This piece of metal is more important to you than the feelings of the people who who lost loved ones that day. “

      Tallulah- What you desire is for folks to slight and not represent when Faith and Religion was in action as a positive comforting force in a memorial that represents when Faith played a negative angle. It would be the same as excluding any white person from the funeral of James Byrd in Jasper Texas.

      I see that you could not answer my challenge question about the inclusion of any images of males of Middle Eastern decent. I am pretty sure that there are families out there that suffered their loss on 9/11 who are of such a mindset and would prefer to not too see any picture or items of people if Middle Eastern decent. Are you willing to go to the American Middle Eastern community and say …

      ”we have to worry about the FEELINGS of the people who lost love ones. So the picture and names that would hint to a Middle Eastern origin will not be permitted in the WTC Memorial.”

      See the understanding of what you are trying to propose is simple, the hatred in yah' is pretty well established. The memorial is for all of society and in normal human bigotry...all society normally has a hatred, distrust and fear of another part. With that fear, they will grasp at any straw to try to exclude or act upon that segment they hate. With you, the fear and distrust is of those of Faith. If I listened to your argument without knowledge you are stating that because a small segment of society is not of Faith we should bow down and submit to the even smaller sect of rabid Atheist that want all of Faith to disappear.

      Sorry Tallulah, I think you need to drop your fear and hate and move on with your life. I said, a bit ago, I was like you once but towards Atheist. Then I came here and found rational Atheist that were able to discuss and listen. In turn, in the dropping of my hate.. I had to do the same thing. I had to listen and discuss my views as a person of Faith. There was found that there can be co-existence and peace. Just like Grimwyrd who is posting on another thread, you are not at the stage yet. You still see the bogeymen of the inquisition. One day I hope you take off your blinders Tallulah.

      >>>”I bet you wouldn't be fighting for this if by some reason this surviving piece of building structure had been reshaped into a star of david or a crescent moon, or heaven forbid, the flying spaghetti monster.”

      hmmm.... Star of David or Cresent Moon.... hold on let me put on my Nazi uniform to answer you. 🙂

      Tallulah, the item was not reshaped, it was found as a cross when the collapsing structure sheered off parts. Check wikopedia, they have a decent picture of it. “Reshaping” is what the government did to bits of the steel from the World Trade Center to make parts of the USS New York warship.

      I will tell you this though, there is a small memorial set up in a building adjacent to the Ground Zero site. In that memorial I remember containing articles of clothing and items of some of the victims of the attacks. There was a ejab, I remember a Yamika was not too far from it. There was a Koran and a Bible. I was told that many of the items from that memorial will be included in the Memorial and I am glad. If someone held a belief in the flying spagetti monster and they were killed or suffered and they wanted to include it then …. no issue from me. In a post before I said if someone was Neo-Nazi and died and his or her family came forth and said...”this was who my loved one was and here in the Iron cross with a Swastika that he was wearing when he went running into tower one that morning. We would like it included in the memorial”. I would have no problems.

      We stand all together … all segments of society, maybe hating each other but that day we were taught that we can certainly die together.

      You believe that including one item or another will convert such a general memorial into something devoted to it. That is ubber-silly. Saying that the inclusion of this item into the memorial makes it no more a Religious site as because they lowered the Ladder 7 truck into the memorial made it a Fire Department or Emergency site.

      >>>”No one should feel uncomfortable ...”

      It is society Tallulah, someone will always feel uncomfortable due to some reason or another.

      >>>“....or excluded there.”

      By opposing the Cross Bars you are doing just that. It was as was reported, a place that the workers found comforting and prayed for Strength in their task of rescue and recovery.

      July 28, 2011 at 2:34 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>”What if instead of a cross they found a scrap piece of metal with what appears to be the outline of a face resembling Jesus? Throw that in the museum too, right?”

      LOL...Which Jesus …. Black Jesus, White Jesus or Hispanic Jesus? 😀

      Seriously, if the story was that workers found such and it was widely reported that they gathered there to pray for strength and comforting during their crisis, I would.

      Thanks for the question.

      l'chaim

      July 28, 2011 at 2:40 pm |
    • Jesus Potter, Harry Christ

      “With that fear, they will grasp at any straw to try to exclude or act upon that segment they hate. With you, the fear and distrust is of those of Faith.”

      It’s funny but that is a great line to use against blocking lesbians and gays having the right to marry. With that fear, they will grasp at any straw to try to exclude or act upon that segment they hate. With you, the fear and distrust is of those that are gay or lesbian. Sorry Christians, I think you need to drop your fear and hate and move on with your life

      July 28, 2011 at 2:42 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>> “With you, the fear and distrust is of those that are gay or lesbian. Sorry Christians, I think you need to drop your fear and hate and move on with your life”

      Can't generalize all Christians or all folks of Faith. It is general knowledge that there are openly Gay and Lesbian Christians, Muslims and Jews.

      July 28, 2011 at 6:01 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.