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Jay Bakker: 'I thought God hated me'Jay Bakker, son of televangelists Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, is a pastor who preaches inclusiveness at his church.
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@ evolved, when I worship Him i praise Him for everything He has done for me and my family and for everything He's going to do for us. Its like thanking Him.
God inhabits the praises of His ppl.
Every man, woman and child is God's people, regardless of belief. Why is that hard for so many allegedly Christian people to grasp, when it is what Jesus said?
@Daniel, all God's people trust in the Savior Jesus whom He sent. Other humans face justice at the end for all the wrong doings they have done.
.
All the mizzies on this blog complaining about scriptures that point out their bad behavior (LOL). Notice how believers don’t complain about any of Jesus’ truth.
YOU own it folks and Jesus is going to blot you out if you don’t get a grip, ask Him for forgiveness to repent of your sins and of course, sin no more.
Amen.
You can have faith as long as you dont think...faith is belief in unknown, unprovable things. the problem with faith is that anyone can create the rules around it.
@ Heaven Sent
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. – Matthew 7:5
Amen, HeavenSent. The Matthew passage does not apply to non-believers. Daniel, live up to your name; HeavenSent is right.
============@Frogist=================== I hope you are still there. In your 6:20 post to True, I'm not sure what the previous diaogue was, but it is only reasonable that God created Adam and Eve as adults and He gave them freedom of choice and they fully understood the consequenses for eating the forbiden fruit, but that doesn't mean that they had infinit wisdom. The freedom of choice is a gift God knew and planed for the choice that Adam would make, nonetheless Adam still had the choice to disobey, when Adam disobeyed he knew it immediately. But God had the plan of salvation formulated before the foundations of the earth were laid. We as finite man can not undersand how sinful sin is. That is the reason man can excuse what is to him a small infraction of the law. When man thinks he can out judge God he is trying to bring God down to his level of finite way of thinking. There is too much to explain here.
"God knew and planed for the choice that Adam would make, nonetheless Adam still had the choice to disobey, when Adam disobeyed he knew it immediately. But God had the plan of salvation formulated before the foundations of the earth were laid."
So he knew he was going to flood it and kill all those people, he knew about all the diseases, hurricanes, starving people, etc... he knew that he would have to create Jesus and save everyone. So why didn't he just forgive everyone to begin with instead of playing games with humanity over and over again....or is it that he's not that all knowing and powerful as the people who created God thought because they didn't work the story line out correctly.....
God knew what they would do and made them so that they would do it, then he punishes not only them but every other human to ever exist, just because they did what he set them up to do?
That makes sense to you?
If true, God is a real rotter!
What if God really wanted us to know him? What if he really was ultimate love and truly desired for every person to love him? Then what if he made his perfect holy love totally evident for everyone to see? If we could REALLY see this love and how awesome it really is, we would have no CHOICE but to love back. So in that sense we would be FORCED to love him. But that is not real love! Real love is not forced. Perhaps God is hidden so we seek after him in a more mutual way. IS that what "See and you shall find" is all about?
============@Frogist=================== I hope you are still there. In your 6:20 post to True, I'm not sure what the previous diaogue was, but it is only reasonable that God created Adam and Eve as adults and He gave them freedom of choice and they fully understood the consequenses for eating the forbiden fruit, but that doesn't mean that they had infinit wisdom. The freedom of choice is a gift
If God created Adam and Eve then why did they need belly buttons? Plus if God created them in his image then why does he need a belly button. I actually hate mine it catches lint all the time. I mean seriously put your finger in there and I bet you'll find some too.
I am not religious at all. But when you refer to being created in Gods image its wasnt speaking of physical form. It was referring to spiritual qualities like love etc.
Like father, like son. Both haven’t a clue how to read the Bible. Hence, never preaching Jesus’ truth!
"But there were also false prophets (teachers of His word) among the people even as there will be false teachers among you. . .
2 Peter 2:1
"For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness. . ."
Jude 4
If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord come!
1 Corinthians 16:22
Amen.
@ jt your missing the point and that's sad.
"...taint THEIR children forever? "
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned— sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. Yet death exercised dominion from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who was to come.
kind of like being punished for a sin you didnt commit...even we know that is wrong...
What kind of so-called loving Father would throw out his kids out of the home because they ate an apple and then lied about it? And why would eating the apple and engaging in a lie taint THEIR children forever? The Old Testament is a bunch of craziness.
Miriam = the name of Moses' older sister.
Read Genesis chapter 3. What you wrote is an error. Nothing you wrote had happened.
"...throw out his kids out of the home because they ate an apple and then lied about it..."
So the Lord God drove him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he had been taken. he CAST HIM OUT, and to the east of the garden of Eden he stationed the cherbum...
Neither Adam nor Eve lied about eating the fruit (not specifically an apple), but the cast out part sure is scripturally accurate.
"...taint THEIR children forever?
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned— sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. Yet death exercised dominion from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who was to come
Miriam, time to read His truth from folks who know how to research the Bible instead of searching on your rag sites that hate Jesus.
http://biblestudysite.com/realsin.htm
http://www.biblestudysite.com/answers4.htm#2
Amen.
Because the Old Testament, just like the New, is about controlling people.
It is much easier to get your way as a ruler when as unseen God has wrath over what you define. Works like a charm. Still does.
Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immacu-late co-nceptions).
Current problems:
Adulterous preachers, pedophiliac clerics, "propheteering/ profiteering" (e.g. Junior Bakker) evangelicals and atonement theology,
===========@jeff===================== Yes, I know I'm a terriable speller, I sometimes spell words wrong even I do know the right way. It may have something to do with dislectia (which I don't know how to spell) I don't mind the correction, it's OK. Thank you.
For God so LOVED the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
Couldn't "God" just say, you're forgiven? If he wanted to he could even tack on- "Now follow this new smaller set of rules, or else. Seriously, I mean it this time."
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Psalm 137:9
And then, because he was so full of "love" he sentenced everyone who didn't believe in this regurgitated fairy tale to a punishment of unrivaled and eternal torture. Yes, he "loves" the world in the same way an abusive parent "loves" their child.
Are you talking about Zeus and Dionysus?
Yes God could have just said believe, it is a Choice you make, he didn't create a robot in your and make all decisions for you, he has given you a free will, the choice is entirely yours to accept him or deny him.
@True,
Wasn't really the point; I understand free will, I'm one of it's biggest advocates. My point was that he didn't need to either create a physical embodiment of himself, or produce an offspring (not sure which one you prefer), just to have it tortured and killed. He is supposedly "God", according to the book he could have written it in fiery letters across the sky, or said it directly to the minds of every person on earth. Instead, according to the story, he begat and sacrificed a single person, in one part of the world, that didn't even know there were people on the other side of the world. It's overly gruesome for a loving good, and not very effictive for an all powerful god. Doesn't that seem strange?
@BRC
Sin separated Man from God eternally.
The atonement for that sin was a "Supreme sacrifice", God sent his only Son to be that sacrifice as an atonement for that sin so that mankind can be redeemed from that sin.
Sacrifice was the answer for atonement of sins, we no longer need sacrifice , John 3:16 has answered that in the Life and Death and Resurrection of Christ.
...what about the vast majority who do not willfully, volitionally "deny Him", but rather simply make a human, cognitive error at worst. Like (presumeably, by your doctrine) the lifelong Mormon.
They also deserve eternal torment?
This is the conundrum that is never answered by fundamentalists; all you get is the repeated (ad nauseum) boilerplate of "God doesn't send anyone to perdition, we choose it ourselves."
@True,
First, what sin? What was the grievous sin that all of a sudden made "God" decide that a sacrifice was due. I will admit I'm not as versed in the NT as the OT, so I just haven't seen that yet.
Second, why was a sacrifice, ANY sacrifice necessary? "God" made the rules, he is the one who would have demanded a sacrifice. What you're basically saying is that "God" got angry, demanded a sacrifice, and then sacrificed his own son, to himself... I have trouble seeing how that makes sense. It would have made more sense to simply tell the world in unison "I am angry, stop it or else." If he was unable to do that, because "sin" divided men from gods, then he's not as powerful as people say.
@ but true
I have personally chosen to believe that Jesus died for me and I accept his plan of salvation for my life. I have studied other philosophies and did not find the Love that Christ offered for me in those other philosphies. My choice to believe in Christ is solely mine.
*ad nauseam
@BRC
The original sin was the one at the garden of Eden where the disobedience to eat of that fruit to know Good and Evil caused us to fall from that eternal life with God and had to face death.
Yup – the original sin – thinking for ourselves. God would much rather have us dumb.
@True,
I want to start this one by saying that I'm not trying to make you change your mind about anything, I'm all for people having their own personal faith, whatever it is, I'm just trying to understand what some other people think. So if these questions seem offensive they're not meant to be, just pointed and inquisitive.
Okay, so it was a holdover from original sin, that he had been tolerating for a few thousand years. that doesn't make any sense to me. If the original sin bothered god so much, why did he leave Noah alive? he punished Adam and Eve by allowing them to age and eventually die, that's 1. Then the world again became corrupt in Noah's age, so "God" purged it of all life with a great flood, that's 2. Supposedly he took a 3rd step to overcome 1 sin, a step that was to allow his son (or self) to die? Why would it take 3 times for him to move past that. Even more, why after 3 different "punishments" for that one sin are people still held accountable for it? "God" let his son (self) die, and it didn't even work? That's a bit inneffectual wouldn't you say?
@True, don't you see that you must come up with more absurd explanations to make sense of the previous absurd statement. You can go on forever but most Christians eventually just throw in the towel with the final statement "god works in mysterious ways".
Also, what kind of sadistic creator would create humans, put them in a garden, create a tree with fruit that they are told not to touch and when they do touch this tree condems them for all of eternity? This would be akin to me putting my 2 year old child in a playpen with a box of matches or razor blade. Do you not see how crazy and absurd that whole story is? You actually believe these bronze age myths?
" I have personally chosen to believe that Jesus died for me... My choice to believe in Christ is solely mine."
That's fine, but, as usual, it talks right past the issue I raised (and I'm quite used to this).
I'm convinced that this kind of non-sequitur logical avoidance of soteriological issues is far more damaging to Christian faith, especially among the young, than anything written by Harris or Hitchens.
@JT
Great illustration about two year old . Adam and Eve were not two year olds they were adults who were given free choice, to this day we have been given a free choice, he did not make us like Robots and think on our behalf, how fortunate we are to have that power of making decisions for ourselves!
@BRC, the second part of your question on why sacrifice- That is is God justice for redemption, our wisdom is limited and finite we cannot think like him or comprehend like him.Good news, sacrifice no longer needed because of Christ death and resurrrection.
@But true
In Christ people find 'Love', 'Hope', 'Forgiveness', 'Life' and 'Peace', why would that be damaging to any individual?
@True,
Okay, I think I see what you're saying- we are limited beings, so cannot fully understand the ways of a god. I would contend that logic is logic, and your level of inteligence is immaterial (there is only one logic, and a finite number of logical solutions to any question, how smart you are just determines how long it would take you to find them); but that's okay, I completely agree that there is no way the human mind would be able to percieve the workings of a god if it did exist. Which of course makes it extra tough to explain why any religion believes it can say exactly what "God" wants, and how he wants us to behave (or that he's a he for that matter). Any thoughts on that one?
I have to leave work real quick, so unfortunately I might take some time to respond, but that's okay because you're still a few questions behind anyway. If you can, look forward to seeing more thoughts, otherwise, thanks for giving what you did.
It's not damaging to the individual, it's damaging to the faith.
Because, to increasing numbers of young people, it makes no sense; eternal torture for the temporal mistakes of inevitably limited constrained, cognition.
That, and the refusal to confront the issue directly.
@But true
Believing in God and having faith should not be damaging in fact it should enrich one's life.
For example when I am at a signal and see a green light I know it is ok for me to go, when I see red light I stop, why would I focus my life on the red light, when I know that Green light means it is okay for me to go? There are rules in life and there are rules set by God, why do I need to focus on breaking those rules instead of looking at the all the positive messages it carries when I am obedient?
@BRC, I think the scriptures give us guidelines on every single aspect of life, there is answer for every challenge one faces in life.
My take no one can be perfect, but we learn every day from reading his word and asking him for his help to live a life filled with love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control .
You ARE determined to illustrate my initial observation (and frustration) of non-sequitur replies, so I'll just have to leave it at that.
And let the other readers or posters judge my argument
The rules of traffic signals make perfect sense; the point I have been raising, and you (again) talk right past, is the sense (or justice) of "...eternal torture for the temporal mistakes of inevitably limited constrained, cognition."
If you are determined to ignore my concern, no further reply is required.
@But, True: I see your frustration with True. Really there is no way to reason with someone who wasn't reasoned into the myth thing to begin with. The best one can do is find humor in pointed commets. For instance...
@True: don't you know it was the the Flying Spaghetti who created the universe? Or, if you would read the Koran you would know that Jesus was a prophet and the crucifixion was staged. Submit to the one true god and his uncorrupted word. Over 1 billion people can't be wrong, right?
@But True
As I wrote earlier, why focus on disobedience and its consequence when there is promise of life eternal for Obedience? Akin to me asking myself why is it wrong to cross the red light, why should the penalty sometimes include a horredous crash/death for simply running a red light by mistake?
@True, I'm not trying to be mean here but you are delusional. You must continually make one absurd claim to bolster your previous equally absurd claim. You say you choose to believe in these absurdities so you are making a conscious effort to be delusional. As long as you realize you are choosing these beliefs and are not claiming that your beliefs aren't based in fact then you should survive without much harm.
@True: I don't mean to jump in on this but I am confused as well about something you said:
If you contend that Adam and Eve were adults and given free choice then they would have to have the understanding of God's instructions and consequences, but then you turn around and say our wisdom is limited and finite so we cannot know the full extent of God's actions.
Well doesn't it have to be one or the other?
Either Adam and Eve had free will and could understand their choices as God intended them to therefore we can absolutely understand God's actions and motivations OR God is infinitely unknowable and Adam and Eve were just two year olds with a cruel, irresponsible parent who put them in a playpen with a razorblade.
@JT
I can tell you that my relationship with God is personal and I will have it NO other way other way because in him I find Hope and Faith. I cannot make you have that Faith .I believe it is by Grace/Choice that one accepts God.
@Frogist- As I said before God gave us a free choice and yes there are consequences for disobedience , we all live by rules in society without questioning those, we also have to abide by God given rules which we cannot question because our wisdom/comprehension is limited when compared to his, our only choice is to Obey not question his authority.
True..If god so loved the world i think he could have done much better... like allowing evidence for this existence to start with so we could all at least be on the same page.. Almost every religious blogger here has a different interpretation of the bible. This is extremely divisive and solves nothing. Until we come together as one human race and value each other as human rather than what we believe in supernaturally we will never find any peace.
'Jesus Loves You' -:)
Truth
Your words as a true Christian are as sweet as pollen. Look at atheists storming you like bees. They will surely make lots of honey.
I understand what a wonderful FEELING that "coming to Jesus" can be, but would it not have been better to have never felt the pain of a disapproving god in the first place? Especially when there is no proof that this god exists in the first place. If Jay truly want to spread the word of inclusion, he would not be spreading an exclusive religion that says point blank that there is only one path to heaven. People need hope and support, but they do not need to be fooled into believing that support (or condemnation) comes from any supernatural means. This includes magic, ghosts, spirits, fairies, gods, or prophets.
My point is: many people have felt that they were hated by god. The reason is that Christianity preaches that people are sinners and evil-doers and all of these bad things. These are terrible things for some people who are tricked into believing religious myths to have to deal with.
But that's what Christianity is all about. You're a worthless sinning piece of garbage that this loving god supposedly created in his own image. As the song goes "that saved a wretch like me". Once you have been convinced that you are destined for an eternity in flames you are then shown a way out that you gladly accept and get a euphoric relief. It's the classic scam and I can't believe anyone with a brain falls for it.
... and one most believers never stop to think through, or consider the deeper implications of.
It's supposed to be Good News, and yet, if I am saved and my daughter is damned (by, say, becoming a Jehovah's Witness in good conscience) how joyful will be my eternal salvation? Knowing my daughter is suffering for eternity simply because she made a mistake?
If I believed I would suffer forever in the lake of fire, I would indeed prostrate myself before Jesus in abject obeisance and groveling.
But, the love, compassion and agape that is supposed to be part of the Good News; these would have nothing to do with it.
Go figure! He's an evangelist, too!
============@Frogist=================== If I'm not getting the whole article, I think you can understand that, that really puts me at a disadvantage. But, I'm confussed about his question. Is he being put in a position that he must make a choice of excuding and alienateing certain people from his ministry? Because that makes no sence.
* sense
*confused
*alienating
*excluding
LOL@Jeff the Grammar Nazi! Lighten up, it's ok. I know what he means.
@Bo: I believe Jay is saying in the video that he was excluded himself by his parents view of God and religion. He finds that to be something he doesn't want perpetuated. So he would make the choice to be less cliquey and more inclusive by focusing on the concept of love and acceptance. I like the idea but I wonder, as others do, how much of it is real, or plausible.
Seeg Heel!
uh,wait, ...Seig Hell!
er, Sige Hall! ...no, wait, Siege Hull!
Darn, some Normative Nazi I am!
===========@Frogist=================== I'm sorry, I only have a cell phone and I don't have the option of a reply button, sure wish I did, it would make things so much simpler for me. Perhaps I don't get the same message as you, because all I got was "I thought God hated me." and then an explination of who he was. That was not much of an article, it was just one sentence.
* explanation
Hi Bo: I did not know your situation. Yes, there is more to the article. There is video attached where Jay explains that he believes religion should be about acceptance and being inclusive to those who are different instead of being exclusive and elitist. I do NOT like the mobile version of this blog. It leaves out links and the videos do not show up. I understand your confusion considering the circu-mstances.
===========@Frogist==================== I have a definition for love. "Love is when you put the needs and wants of others before your own wants and needs. The measure of love is the willingness of how much we are to put the needs of another before our own. Anything other than this is passion" If there is some 'greedy' wise guy out there that says "I need all you have, give it to me." Remember the "measure of love" and where you just might fit in? I don't have too much reguard for greed. Greed is not the same as need.
* regard
"You believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards, witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, food falling from the sky, people walking on water, and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive stories, and you say that we are the ones that need help?"
– Dan Barker
@ shrike, that is your opion. I worship out of love and view my God as someone I should mold myself after.
"Choose who's side your on but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord."
"and view my God as someone I should mold myself after."
Please don't drown your children like he did. Please don't take them outside and burn them if they disappoint you, like he promises he will do to us.
"If there is a God, he is a malign thug." Samuel Clemens
Person of the name..What do you think that your god gets out of you worshiping him or her? What possible use is it to the supreme being other than a giant ego trip? I think most people do it out of fear as since they were very young and impressionable they were told stories of the afterlife and were made to believe and fear. Why does god need to be reminded you are thinking of him ... shouldn't he/she be in Africa stopping humanity from starving again?
Person of the name . Hi .I think you mean mould.... "mold" would indicate that, like me, you believe we evolved from that simple cellular form and I some how suspect that you do not.
=======@jejj======================== Oops! I meant "hate", just replace the word "angery" with "hate" and it's still the same.
* angry