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Church leadership post for an openly gay Mormon
Mitch Mayne, who is openly gay, hopes his newly assumed Mormon leadership position will increase understanding.
September 24th, 2011
10:00 PM ET

Church leadership post for an openly gay Mormon

By Jessica Ravitz, CNN

(CNN) - Early on in life, Mitch Mayne knew exactly who he was.

He would race home from school to watch reruns of “Star Trek” and swoon over his crush, Captain Kirk. At 8, after his parents converted, he was baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a faith he embraced. Even after he drifted away from the LDS Church following his parents’ divorce, he came back to Mormonism on his own in his mid-20s.

It is where he feels spiritually at home, irrespective of the fact that, for the past 10 years, he’s been openly gay.

“I’m a man that lives in two worlds that a lot of people don’t think intersect,” Mayne said. “Both sides of myself exist in me. It’s part of my DNA, part of my makeup.”

Actively Mormon and openly gay: It's the sort of combo that might leave people wondering. After all, the LDS Church teaches that homosexuality, specifically if same-sex attractions are acted upon, is a sin. And the church has actively backed measures to ban same-sex marriages.

Now, Mayne finds himself in the spotlight as he embarks on a journey he says “belongs to all of us.” In mid-August he was selected, or called (as Mormons say) by local church officials to serve in an LDS Church leadership position in San Francisco.

Mayne’s appointment may have generated attention, but he’s not the first gay Mormon to assume a leadership role in the church.

In Seattle, Washington, and Oakland, California, gay men have reportedly served in LDS Church leadership roles, Peggy Fletcher Stack wrote in her piece about Mayne in The Salt Lake Tribune. What makes Mayne unique, Stack said, is that he "may be the first local LDS leader to announce his orientation over the pulpit.”

Late last month, from the pulpit, Mayne revealed - to anyone who didn't already know - who he is:

"I am a gay Latter-day Saint.

"I don't want pity. To pity me is to make me a victim. I want understanding. To understand me is to love me as an equal.

"I don't want tolerance. If I am tolerated, I am disliked in some way. I want respect as a fellow striving child of God - an equal in his eyes.

"I don't want acceptance. To accept me is to graciously grant me the favor of your company. To accept me is to marginalize me with the assumption that I am less than you. I am your peer. I am neither above you nor below you."

Mayne shared these words during a farewell address to the Oakland ward he long attended, amid an announcement that he would be leaving because he had been named the executive secretary to the bishop of the Bay Ward. It is a role in which he'll offer administrative help but also take part in shaping congregational work.

“While that’s not a big accomplishment in and of itself,” Mayne said, “it is a remarkable accomplishment for the simple fact that maybe for the first time, a man was called to a priesthood leadership position not in spite of the fact that he is gay, but partly because he is gay.”

For those unfamiliar with LDS Church vernacular, a ward is essentially a congregation or, to use Catholic terminology, a parish. Various wards fall under the auspices of a stake, the rough equivalent of a diocese. In this case, the Bay Ward is one of three wards that make up the San Francisco Stake.

The LDS Church, which entrusts local leaders to determine local callings, does not pay clergy, nor does it send would-be bishops to seminary. So Mayne, like the bishop who called him to serve, is a volunteer who works for the church on top of his full-time corporate communications job.

Don Fletcher, an ophthalmologist, said that when he was called last month to serve as the bishop and leader of the Bay Ward he wanted to make sure every Latter-day Saint in his ward knew they were welcome, including the vast majority who weren't showing up. Of the 950 members on the books, only 150 were appearing in the pews.

Because the Bay Ward serves a geographic area in San Francisco that includes the famously gay, rainbow-flag-waving Castro neighborhood, it stands to reason that a segment of those not attending church are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender.

Among those who have been absent are members who grew up steeped in Mormonism, faithfully served as missionaries and have families still active in the church. For Fletcher, making members of the LGBT community feel comfortable enough to walk through his congregation's doors is personal.

Fletcher has a gay family member with AIDS and says he has seen firsthand how isolating that can be in the Mormon world.

“I love my church and have a lot of faith, but culturally we haven’t done a good job in dealing with people who are gay when they face life challenges,” whether that be coming out, depression or struggles with suicide or illness, Fletcher said. “I wanted to address it in the ward I live in.”

The response in his ward, and from other Mormons he has heard from, has been nothing but positive, "uniformly, no exception," the bishop said. And, he added with a laugh, in the past month he’s broadened his own knowledge – or, rather, his lingo base - learning about “the ‘Moho community,' Mormons who are homosexual. That was a new one to me.”

The LDS Church's top leadership, and by extension many Mormons sitting in pews, heavily supported the campaign behind Proposition 8, the 2008 California initiative to ban same-sex marriage, which is currently tied up in the state’s high court.

Church doctrine says members should avoid sexual relations until marriage, which only can exist between a man and a woman. But the church’s involvement in the Prop 8 battle, and the Mormons who financially fueled the effort, created rifts in wards, spawned protests outside LDS temples and pushed some members, likely already on the churchgoing fence, out the door.

The Oakland First Ward, which Mayne attended for more than a decade, held a series of meetings to help heal those post-Prop 8 wounds. He said he sees his new church position in San Francisco’s Bay Ward as an extension of such bridge-building and a positive evolution from where he once was. The appointment will allow him to do extensive outreach in the LGBT and Mormon communities.

“It’s been hard to be a gay Mormon,” Mayne said. In the course of his life, he said he came out "no less than three times to bishops and stake presidents, and each time I was pushed back into the closet. … This is an opportunity to take my own pain and challenges and make it an opportunity to help. How can I not do that?”

He and Fletcher have already seen dividends from Mayne's calling. On a recent Sunday, Fletcher said he looked out to see seven formerly absent members take their seats in the pews because Mayne is there.

“I talked to a couple that hadn’t been to church in 20 years,” Fletcher said. “I’m not reinventing doctrine. I’m just trying to put in place what Jesus Christ would have us doing. … Even if you’re in a gay relationship and have no interest in living all the commandments, you’re still welcome in church, by all means.”

The development has stirred up discussion far beyond California. In one week, Mayne said, his personal website, which links to a blog in which he writes openly about who he is, received 30,000 views from 67 countries.

“I’m not a lone wolf on this,” he said. “I just happen to be a face of it. … There is a place for everyone at our savior’s table.”

But not everyone is as confident that Mayne’s calling will make a difference.

“I’m conflicted about this,” said Eric Ethington of Salt Lake City, the founder of the LGBT blog PRIDEinUtah.

“On the one hand, I view this as a positive step forward for the church, a church that has a history of extreme persecutions against the LGBT community,” he said. “But on the other hand,  I worry about LGBT people … because the church teaches you that you cannot reach your full potential and have full acceptance in the church unless you marry someone of the opposite sex.”

Ethington was raised in the LDS Church and says he was kicked out of the house when he came out at 17. He later closeted himself and married a woman in an LDS temple, only to divorce a couple of years later after realizing he was kidding himself.

“I can’t share (Mitch’s) optimism, but I share his hope,” he said. “Whether the church is ever going to change its policies, that’s a question for (LDS Church President) Thomas Monson. But one thing I hope the church will do, and maybe Mitch can help with this, is educate local leadership. Some kids are gay. … And that’s OK.”

Ethington pointed out, though, that Mayne, who was in a longtime monogamous relationship until a year ago, was only able to get his church calling because he’s not currently with someone.

“If he falls in love again and wants to be with that man, he won’t be allowed to serve,” he said.

Matt Mosman, a high councilor with the San Francisco Stake, said that if Mayne were to find himself in another romantic relationship, there would be an expectation that he would step down.

But the expectation that Mayne will abstain from premarital sex while in a leadership role, Mosman added, is no different from what would be expected of a single man who is not gay.

“The idea that a gay man who is not currently active in a gay relationship could serve actively in a high-ranking calling – that is a policy in the Mormon church that you could argue has been around since the church’s inception,” said Mosman, who works in corporate development.

For now, Mayne looks forward to his service and to promoting conversations and understanding. He will not, however, commit to a life of celibacy and hopes, “for all my gay brothers and sisters,” that same-sex marriage will someday be an option.

“I’m not saying I have an intent to go out and sin,” he said. “Here’s where I am; I am able and willing to serve. But I don’t have a crystal ball and don’t know what the future holds.”

- CNN Writer/Producer

Filed under: Homosexuality • Mormonism • Same-sex marriage

soundoff (1,700 Responses)
  1. BX

    ABOMINATION! God did not make men to somize each other then blab it out and lets be HONEST..some do children!SICK

    September 26, 2011 at 1:42 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Richard? Is that you?

      September 26, 2011 at 1:50 pm |
    • Duh

      "some do children!SICK"

      uh duh....that's a pedophile moron not a gay person.

      September 26, 2011 at 2:01 pm |
    • kurtinco

      Hey, BX...if God didn't "make men to sodomize each other", then why do the parts fit together so well? God doesn't make accidents. Just a little something for you to chew on.

      September 26, 2011 at 2:02 pm |
    • phoodphite

      Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son wrote "Richard? Is that you?" omg–lol. it might be. But I guess I might talk to Richard on say, maybe the day I am passing away, with some appropriate music of course; but I certainly would not invite him to happy hour.

      September 26, 2011 at 2:16 pm |
    • srsly

      Methinks you doth protest too much.

      September 26, 2011 at 2:21 pm |
    • JustPlainJe

      Perhaps you should not have gone off your psychiatric medications after all.

      September 26, 2011 at 2:35 pm |
  2. Atheism believes in nothing

    Atheism is a contradiction.

    September 26, 2011 at 1:41 pm |
    • VonDoom

      Exactly how is Atheism "a contradiction"? As an Atheist, please explain my beliefs to me.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:45 pm |
    • Rob

      Hardly. I don't see any contradictions in atheism. Organized religion, on the other hand, is full of them. When one interpretation of the Bible doesn't suit YOUR beliefs, chose another. Make it up as you go along. Hate the gays for being an "abomination", but devour those delicious crabs and shrimp and lobster at the Red Lobster all you can eat buffet while wearing your blend of wool and cotton. No problem with those abominations, right?

      Atheists simply refuse to believe an unprovable shared delusion that divides society and our species and makes us judge and hate each other.

      September 26, 2011 at 2:10 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Your screen name is absurd, to start with. "Atheism" isn't a person; therefore, it can't "believe" or "disbelieve" anything. Really, if you're that stupid concerning simple English, why would anyone care what you think about something as complex as others' belief systems or lack thereof?

      Go back to school and learn the rudiments before you start spouting your ignorance publicly.

      September 26, 2011 at 2:41 pm |
    • Theism Believes Nothing... IS Something

      .

      September 26, 2011 at 3:05 pm |
  3. Michael paul

    Richard Kaiser–you must be one of those who pick and chose your Bible passages. Jesus called everyone, but everyone didn't and won't accept. To follow Christ doesn't mean to openly thumb your nose up at Him and sin, openly. Jesus called all, but all did not accept. One who truly followed Christ would not brag about sinning against Him. I have my sins, but I fight them daily, and you have to be very careful who you put in the position of leadership, because a leader is supposed to be the example–read the letters from Paul.

    Just because you call everyone, doesn't mean everyone will accept you. Jesus wanted ALL to come, but also said that few would. There are a lot of pretenders in the faith, and one sure sign is one who claims to follow Christ but openly and unapologetically sins against Him.

    September 26, 2011 at 1:40 pm |
    • Richard S Kaiser

      @ Michael paul,,,,

      What I know regarding the immeasurable amounts of the heavens within this earth's Heaven gives me pause to consider. The Cosmological considerations put asunder each and every known of sciences that declares there to be but one universe. There are undoubtedly more universes so numerable that there is no number big enough to count them. Although, our deeming this universe as ours and ours alone, does keep many as being small minded. The 3 Cosmologies I adhere to are quite easily deemed. We have Fractal Cosmology and such is divided into two which are Celestial Cosmology and Cellular Cosmology. Without these three Cosmologies there would be but Nothingness.

      Fractal Cosmology deals with there being a solitray "grand" and/or "greatest" universe and in scale there is a finitely small universe. These two size variations are the stellar and the atomic.

      Celestial Cosmology deals with things/objects within the framing of Outer Space while the Cellular Cosmology deals with fixed and propogated atomic universes within all things that live and are alive.

      The Sea of Nothingness is what holds together not only the Celestial Universes but is also likened to streams and ponds and creeks that go deeply into the inner Cosmos of very small Universes. This Sea and streams and ponds and creeks are of Onenesss and is thye Holy Spirit of GOD, the CREATION.

      September 26, 2011 at 2:03 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      How appropriate that you know so much about the Sea of Nothingness, Dickwad.

      September 26, 2011 at 10:31 pm |
  4. johngei

    I grew up in the church and miss it very much ,My parnets never stoped suporting me and gave me great guidance untli they died .I have ahappy marriage that has lasted 24 yrs through very tough times and 7 years battling cancer ,my husband and I have both been rejected by the churhes we were brought up in ,It would be great to see this happen The Mormon Church does grreat work all over the world and most of the time people dont know that it is the church doing this giving ,I dont see the church doing this openly and freely sad to say ,

    September 26, 2011 at 1:36 pm |
  5. Richard S Kaiser

    Toni L wrote on Monday, September 26, 2011 at 12:52 pm, stating, "Mr. Kaiser, I'm still not sure what it is you're trying to say. Can you sum it up in a single paragraph of *slightly* fewer and smaller words? I'm not an idiot, but please humor me, because I don't think you're making your point very clear. Are you for or against the reality of a gay Mormon in a leadership role? Are you for or against LGB or T Christians in general?

    For what it's worth, I am a very Christ-centered individual who falls under at least one of those letters, and I have no doubt that Jesus was INclusive, whereas most mainstream churches are highly EXclusive. Jesus didn't say "come to me, all who seek me...oh, except if you're gay. Oh and don't bother showing up if you're transgender. For that matter, let's go ahead and keep out all the people, too." I'm pretty sure the only condition He put on us was "Love".

    As a people Sir Tony, we are declared by Christ Jesus to Love unconditionally our neighbors no matter our perceived thoughts against them. If one has ill-conceived thoughts of the neighborlly, one must contemplate the why's and repent in due course our ill-gotten perceptions. I am not against GLBT folks. I am not however for the overt publicities that surrounds such genderships. As a god built by a God living upon a structure of GOD, I am only trying to have others of godly intentions see my perceptions regarding the Cosmological Orders of Religious Clairvoyance.

    September 26, 2011 at 1:21 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      The "overt publicities that surrounds such genderships".

      Really. Too funny.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:25 pm |
    • BustinJieber

      There is no such thing as a "T"....They are referred to as "confused". "Transgenders" are what they are according to their chromosomal makeups no matter what they think they 'should' be. XX or XY. You can think you're an aardvark and even refer to yourself as one but it doesn't really change the reality.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:27 pm |
    • Mike Hunt

      Many,many Christians and others are Gay or Bi. Many are afraid to come forward.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:30 pm |
    • Richard S Kaiser

      The GOD who is this Earth’s Heavenly Embodiments assures me that within all the Celestial Heavens does lay many other universes too numerable to count, let alone be all seen ever by man. As GOD stretches out HIS Body, He creates other universes to fill the Holy Sea of HIS Spirit which is the Sea of Nothingness and its’ rivers lay way to ponds and streams and creeks inwardly upon the realms of the atomized universes where within live the Gods and Christ Jesus is their King.

      When we die one does go before the throne of judgment to be deemed worthy of receivership of a singular heaven of unlimited heavens within Heaven of HEAVEN. Or one may be sent off to lead a life/death and life/death living throughout all eternity until the new earth is completed from the celestial universes which are forever being built and supplanted as GOD sees fit within the new earth’s growing firmaments.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:34 pm |
    • Lamanite

      You don't have many friends do you?

      September 26, 2011 at 1:35 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      No kidding. Can you picture having a real-life conversation with Dickie Bigwords? I'll bet he's the life of any party....

      September 26, 2011 at 1:42 pm |
    • phoodphite

      Richard S Kaiser wrote: "[..] I am only trying to have others of godly intentions see my perceptions regarding the Cosmological Orders of Religious Clairvoyance." So your are trying to COeRCe them? I am glad you say you are not against GLBT folks, but it certainly sounded like you might be related to Carrie's mother.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:59 pm |
    • Richard S Kaiser

      Lamanite wrote on Monday, September 26, 2011 at 1:35 pm, stating, "You don't have many friends do you?"

      The friends I do have are dear to me and I treasure so dearly their friendships.

      September 26, 2011 at 2:15 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      I doubt the feeling is mutual.

      September 26, 2011 at 2:31 pm |
    • Observer

      Richard,
      "The GOD who is this Earth’s Heavenly Embodiments assures me that within all the Celestial Heavens does lay many other universes too numerable to count . ."

      What does his voice sound like? George Burns? Charlton Heston? Peewee Herman? Gilbert Gottfried?

      September 26, 2011 at 4:11 pm |
    • Seriously

      "The GOD who is this Earth’s Heavenly Embodiments assures me that within all the Celestial Heavens does lay many other universes too numerable to count, let alone be all seen ever by man. As GOD stretches out HIS Body, He creates other universes to fill the Holy Sea of HIS Spirit which is the Sea of Nothingness and its’ rivers lay way to ponds and streams and creeks inwardly upon the realms of the atomized universes where within live the Gods and Christ Jesus is their King. "

      Seriously no wonder you fell for christianity, you are just making up shit as you go along. You really should seek professional help. I wouldn't be surprised if you are clinically depressed.

      September 27, 2011 at 11:05 am |
  6. morsecoder

    This is wrong on so many levels.

    September 26, 2011 at 1:20 pm |
    • some jane

      Please state some examples.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:26 pm |
    • chuck

      Jane ???? The book he is teaching out of is against what he is doing ? The Old and New Testament. He is a fake. This is not real. Why would he want to do this ? The only reason I can see is maybe make himself feel better for what he has become? What he is trying to represents forbids his way of life. It just can't happen. It's not true. It's fake.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:51 pm |
  7. kdf

    Hum, this is a very big contradiction to what our (mormons) standards are. At this point then why not call a woman to priesthood positions? Accept me as who I am as a person who social drinks. You can not have standards and commandments but give an exception to 1 person as this will now create a huge snowball effect.

    September 26, 2011 at 1:15 pm |
    • BustinJieber

      You're already getting your exception being a drinker. If you want to be a drinker and a priest then you'll have to go to the catholic church where it is a requirement. Oh sorry but you still ccan't be a woman priest there either.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:23 pm |
    • Jennifer

      Which is precisely why you see the number of your active-church going folks dwindling rapidly, and in my opinion, rightfully so. Jesus took those "as they were" and it worked for him. I fail to understand why, if it was good enough for Jesus, it's not good enough for the Mormons.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:28 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Gosh, a "huge snowball effect". Whatever would we do then? We'd have to just accept EVERYONE as he is and was made by God.

      What a concept.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:29 pm |
    • some way

      Maybe by YOUR Mormon standards but not mine.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:29 pm |
    • chuck

      Jennifer, You are correct in saying that Jesus took them as they were, but he also stated you are forgiven. Go and SIN NO MORE! Becoming a Christian better represent a change in everyones lifestyle or you really don't have anything.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:53 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You don't know what Jesus said, if anything, since the Bible was written by other people-who were, coincidentally, straight men.

      September 26, 2011 at 2:05 pm |
    • jj

      God does accept and love everyone. That doesn't mean he doesn't have rules (commandments) we are required to follow. Just because you don't like the rules it doesn't mean they should not be followed or ignored.

      September 26, 2011 at 3:11 pm |
    • Nonimus

      @jj
      "God does accept and love everyone. That doesn't mean he doesn't have rules (commandments) we are required to follow. Just because you don't like the rules it doesn't mean they should not be followed or ignored."

      Just because they are God's rules (if that is the case) it doesn't mean they *should* be followed. Just because He supposedly created the universe doesn't mean His rules are necessarily better than someone else's.

      September 26, 2011 at 4:19 pm |
  8. Jeff S

    Good luck with that.

    September 26, 2011 at 1:11 pm |
    • BustinJieber

      Does this mean he can have as many husbands as he wants?

      September 26, 2011 at 1:19 pm |
    • Nonimus

      No, polygamy was discontinued years ago in the LDS church.
      This is also a convenient way to outlaw same-s.ex marriage. No multiple wives or husbands. In a same-s.ex marriage there are either two wives or two husbands, case closed. 🙂

      September 26, 2011 at 4:22 pm |
  9. trurh

    read your bible

    September 26, 2011 at 1:10 pm |
  10. Johnson

    The Mormon Church sent $23Million to California to support Prop 8. How much will they contribute to the Romney campaign to have the first Mormon President.

    September 26, 2011 at 1:06 pm |
    • jcl

      ummmm...none

      September 26, 2011 at 1:34 pm |
    • justme

      $0. Same as any other candidate.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:44 pm |
    • RLP1509

      Can't argue with the two replies. The Mormon church is very very careful to state its political neutrality for any candidate for any political office including Mr. Romney and Mr. Huntsman.

      September 26, 2011 at 2:26 pm |
  11. Dave

    "Turn it off like a light switch. Just go 'click'. It's a nifty little Mormon trick."

    September 26, 2011 at 12:57 pm |
    • how's that

      Do you know this from experience?

      September 26, 2011 at 1:30 pm |
    • Maximus

      lol, great soundtrack

      September 26, 2011 at 2:08 pm |
  12. NorCalMojo

    He looks like Ricky Gervais in his "if you don't know me by now" video

    September 26, 2011 at 12:50 pm |
  13. rawhide

    I for one am proud of Bud Bundy for coming out and admitting that he was a Ho-Mo.

    September 26, 2011 at 12:48 pm |
    • Rick

      i don't recall reading anything about david faustino coming out.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:14 pm |
  14. omega

    So its a ploy. By Selecting a gay person to a rather meaningless position they are hopeing to bring in more gay people. The problam is most gay people are smarter than that.

    September 26, 2011 at 12:45 pm |
    • YBP

      That's right. And once this Uncle Tom gets through his dry spell and starts dating again, he is yetserday's news.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:20 pm |
    • Jennifer

      Yes we are 🙂

      September 26, 2011 at 1:31 pm |
    • Sunrise

      They only want to get the gay people coming in because they may money. Don't let them fool you, it is all about the almighty dollar!

      September 26, 2011 at 1:53 pm |
  15. Kristin

    The only sin I saw in this article was his crush on William Shatner. That's just creepy. Other than that, he's gay. So what?

    September 26, 2011 at 12:42 pm |
    • .

      LOL!

      September 26, 2011 at 12:49 pm |
    • srsly

      Post of the day.

      September 26, 2011 at 2:27 pm |
  16. Richard S Kaiser

    People are for the worst part total idiots and bigots and fools and wh0res of the Word be it spoken or written or read.

    September 26, 2011 at 12:31 pm |
    • Observer

      Richard,

      Speaking of "fools and wh0res of the Word", do you believe in talking serpents and unicorns?

      September 26, 2011 at 12:34 pm |
    • Richard S Kaiser

      Observer the abutment,

      2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

      Let's "rightly divide the word of truth" shall we? To do such a division one needs to see the truth and the falsehoods, right? Ergo, your constantly bringing up the falsehoods of the "Word" is quite shallow of you,,,,,,,,

      September 26, 2011 at 12:44 pm |
    • Observer

      Richard,

      Ah! Still stumped on a simple "yes or no" question.

      September 26, 2011 at 12:46 pm |
    • Normon

      Just curious, but what are "wh0res of the Word?"

      September 26, 2011 at 12:51 pm |
    • Robert

      “People are for the worst part total idiots and bigots and fools and wh0res of the Word be it spoken or written or read”

      Too bad, you didn’t pay attention to the grammar lesions in school, which is why "huh" is right you're are a pseudo-intellectual.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:00 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Which of the above are you, Dickie Witless?

      September 26, 2011 at 1:00 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      How does a person become an 'abutment'? Does one have to attend a special class or college for that, Dickie?

      September 26, 2011 at 1:01 pm |
    • phoodphite

      I am starting to get the feeling that Richard S Kaiser has been referencing scripts from some of the un-aired episodes of the cable series Carnivale.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:12 pm |
  17. Richard S Kaiser

    I grow somewhat tediously tired whenever the likes of those who gather together their charm and enthusiasm to debase and defrock a simplistic oneness who decides to place upon the civility of socialism an adjective in rightly dividing the word of truth in ways that would otherwise have been overlooked. My so-called Pompous and bigoted and idiotic insinuations by otherly folks tells me that I want little to no part of their abridged fornications of ill-doing and marked lagellation upon others who are not literal enough yet are to be eschewed by the ilk of those who lambaste the weak in word and those who are held in strength by worded discourse.

    September 26, 2011 at 12:01 pm |
    • Huh

      Hey look more pseudo-intellectual babbling!

      September 26, 2011 at 12:04 pm |
    • Richard S Kaiser

      lagellation,,,,,,, I meant flagellation

      September 26, 2011 at 12:05 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      lagellation, flagellation...makes no difference. Your post is meaningless no matter which you use. Most of the nonsense you post is nothing but made-up words anyway.

      Troll.

      September 26, 2011 at 12:13 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      The problem, Robert, is that when you speak this way you alienate anyone who might otherwise choose to engage you in discourse. Communication is a two way street. If you seek to be understood and impart whatever wisdom you may have on a particular subject, you must relay that information in a vernacular approximating that of those to whom you wish to impart said knowledge.

      You, however, choose to speak in your overly flowery prose, inserting words with little or now bearing on the actual topic, including words that are not actually words, and then get frustrated when it is pointed out to you that you are speaking past the bulk of the people in the room. The problem then, is not with those on the receiving side of your attempt at communication, but on yours.

      Chose to speak clearly and concisely and without the grandiose posturing and you might find yourself engaged in a conversation that actually speaks to the topic at hand, rather than being a dismissal of your attempt to communicate.

      September 26, 2011 at 12:15 pm |
    • Richard S Kaiser

      @ Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      At least I don't hide behind a false name,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

      September 26, 2011 at 12:16 pm |
    • Richard S Kaiser

      @ myweightinwords

      I take it when you wrote "Robert" you meant me?

      September 26, 2011 at 12:19 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Sure, you do, you bozo. You're not really Richard S Kaiser, you troll.

      September 26, 2011 at 12:26 pm |
    • Observer

      Richard,
      "At least I don't hide behind a false name,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"

      So what is it that you do try to hide behind when you pretentiously hide from answering questions?

      September 26, 2011 at 12:27 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Dick the Babbler: to debase and defrock a simplistic oneness who decides to place upon the civility of socialism an adjective in rightly dividing the word of truth
      -------–

      Are you the "simplistic oneness"? How does one "place upon the civility of socialism an adjective"?

      Really, dickie, you're ridiculous.

      September 26, 2011 at 12:35 pm |
    • Cole Gilbert

      "I grow somewhat tediously tired whenever the likes of those who gather together their charm and enthusiasm to debase and defrock a simplistic oneness who decides to place upon the civility of socialism an adjective in rightly dividing the word of truth in ways that would otherwise have been overlooked" Not only is your post pretentious and illegible. This run on sentence is repulsive. Also this whole article is one big media stunt by the LDS church to appear unbiased.

      September 26, 2011 at 12:36 pm |
    • Richard S Kaiser

      @ Observer

      I have naswered your questions you bigoted and fallacious tyrant who wants only to socialize with other bigoted fools and tenure together their stupid and mindless dribble forsaking all else,,,,,,,,,,,,

      September 26, 2011 at 12:37 pm |
    • Observer

      Richard,

      How does one go about "rightly dividing the word of truth"? That's a classic. MOST people know that truth is an absolute.

      September 26, 2011 at 12:38 pm |
    • Calvin

      Bug off! (can you understand my choice of words?)

      September 26, 2011 at 12:39 pm |
    • Observer

      Richard S Kaiser,

      Don't worry about it. I knew you wouldn't answer the questions. All you apparently have left is juvenile insults and pretentiousness.

      September 26, 2011 at 12:40 pm |
    • haha

      Richard S Kaiser, internet pedant.

      September 26, 2011 at 12:40 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      I am sorry, Richard. Yes, I meant you. I just happened to be also conversing with a gentlemen I work with as I typed my response. His name is Robert, thus the mix up.

      I apologize.

      September 26, 2011 at 12:42 pm |
    • omega

      Perhaps if you used puncuation properly your post would be legible. Probably not, thats why im not going to attempt to understand your ramblings.

      September 26, 2011 at 12:50 pm |
    • Richard S Kaiser

      myweightinwords wrote on Monday, September 26, 2011 at 12:42 pm, stating, "I am sorry, Richard. Yes, I meant you. I just happened to be also conversing with a gentlemen I work with as I typed my response. His name is Robert, thus the mix up. I apologize."

      No problem myweightinwords. Sometimes when I post here I do so because I get caught up in the streamimg animosities or hostilities. I am a tolerant individual for the most part yet sometimes I just want to ring people's necks till they are dead! Many of my posts are written to aspire those who are somewhat religious and have acute senses about such things as Fractal Cosmology and Celestial Cosmology and Cellular Cosmology. I do at times of posting here intermingle scriptures with the Cosmologies of sciences founding ways. As you are quite possibly aware of, my writings are for the most part without much denigrations except when I am being frowned upon and called names by the illiterate who know only about small words.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:04 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      They're legible, being typed, they're just nonsensical. And I believe that's exactly what Dickie intends. He is just some little troll who likes hanging out here because he has no real friends and enjoys pretending to have a life by bloviating here.

      His manufactured language may be a sign of Asperger's.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:06 pm |
    • Danilo

      Your writing reminded me of a teacher's comment in one of my graduate classes, ". . . write to communicate, not to impress."

      September 26, 2011 at 1:06 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Dickie says: "Many of my posts are written to aspire those who are somewhat religious".

      Yeah, honey, we can see you know really BIG words, like "aspire". Unfortunately, you don't know what they mean or how to use them. In this case, you mean "inspire", not "aspire". If you don't want to be "frowned upon", Dickie, stop pretending to be something you aren't: smart and well-educated.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:09 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      What's laughable is that someone like Dickie, who can't write clearly and makes up words that are meaningless, strung together in the most convoluted manner possible, is attempting to interpret the Bible for others. Really, it's comedy gold.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:12 pm |
    • JohnR

      This stuff isn't pseudo-intellectual. It's street-babbleresque.

      September 26, 2011 at 2:32 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You're quite right. I think that's his intent.

      September 26, 2011 at 2:44 pm |
  18. tallulah13

    And finally in the right place....

    tallulah13

    False Tallulah, this has been my name for as long as I have been posting on the internet. Not on just these boards. I will not let a coward like you take it. You are too cowardly use a name of your own, even protected by the anonymity of the internet. You must steal mine and use it to try to destroy what I say. But you will grow weary of the game and move on to something else and I will continue to speak as I see fit. You are nothing but an hollow little troll with nothing of your own to offer.

    Also, thanks Tom. I appreciate it.

    September 26, 2011 at 11:40 am |
    • tallulah13

      Sheesh. I'm going to get it right this time!

      September 26, 2011 at 11:40 am |
    • J.W

      You must be really angry. The fake tallulah has you all flustered now. lol

      September 26, 2011 at 11:44 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Funny that you seem to be following right along, JW. Why is that?

      September 26, 2011 at 11:49 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You're welcome, genuine tallulah. Addled just has a stick up her azz and not much else to call her own.

      September 26, 2011 at 11:50 am |
    • J.W

      Dude what is it that you have against me?

      September 26, 2011 at 12:15 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Not a thing. Just wondering how it is you're following this conversation so closely.

      September 26, 2011 at 12:29 pm |
    • J.W

      Well I saw the post and then was curious who she was talking to so I went back like two pages. Why would I type under tallulah's name when I have always gotten along with her and even agree with her on some things. That wouldn't make sense.

      September 26, 2011 at 12:38 pm |
    • Tallulah13

      Not flustered, just on a hurry because it was time to get ready for work. Time to go now, so I'll talk to you all later.

      September 26, 2011 at 12:45 pm |
  19. tallulah13

    False Tallulah, this has been my name for as long as I have been posting on the internet. Not on just these boards. I will not let a coward like you take it. You are too cowardly use a name of your own, even protected by the anonymity of the internet. You must steal mine and use it to try to destroy what I say. But you will grow weary of the game and move on to something else and I will continue to speak as I see fit. You are nothing but an hollow little troll with nothing of your own to offer.

    September 26, 2011 at 11:38 am |
    • tallulah13

      Argh! Wrong Place!

      September 26, 2011 at 11:38 am |
  20. Richard S Kaiser

    Mat 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

    In searching have you found yet, “The Kingdom of God?”

    Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

    The Lord Christ Jesus has stated himself that this world is NOT of His Kingdom and perhaps never will be,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    1Cr 3:9 “For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.”

    Being God’s husbandry, we are all given the chance to procreate and thru procreation God places His Hopes that one day soon someone will have an eye to see and in seeing know without a doubt that we are outrightly but Buildings of God’s grand design!

    1Cr 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

    Some of God’s buildings are as Temples and in these Temples of Godliness, does reside the spirit of God’s wealthiness. I though am but a building for I did spend most of my days, not doing the things that God has set upon me to do. I nowadays write what the Holy Spirit inside my dictates to me to write.

    Luk 17:21 "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is inside/within you."

    Alas, The Kingdom of God is truly inside us! Thank you Lord Christ Jesus for saying it in your Word!

    1Cr 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

    Only with added light and high magnification can the “hidden things of darkness” upon inner space be revealed. Only by capturing light by time and telescopic magnification can one see the far away outer space “hidden things of darkness” and still; one cannot see but a short distance upon the closer outer space phenomenon while much of outer space “hidden things of darkness” will never be seen by our prying eyes. Both places of “hidden things” are of one accordance and revealing sameness, ergo which one is imitating the other or are both things of the hidden darkness mimicking each other simultaneously?

    The GOD who is this Earth’s Heavenly Embodiments assures me that within all the Celestial Heavens does lay many other universes too numerable to count, let alone be seen ever by man. As GOD stretches out HIS Body, He creates other universes to fill the Holy Sea of HIS Spirit which is the Sea of Nothingness and its’ rivers lay way to ponds and streams and creeks inwardly upon the realms of the atomized universes where within live the Gods and Christ Jesus is their King.

    When we die one goes before the throne of judgment to be deemed worthy of receivership of a heaven or to be sent off to lead a life/death and life/death living throughout all eternity until the new earth is completed from the celestial universes which are forever being built and supplanted as GOD sees fit within the new earth’s growing firmaments.

    September 26, 2011 at 11:38 am |
    • Reality

      JC's family and friends had it right 2000 years ago ( Mark 3: 21 "And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.")

      Said passage is one of the few judged to be authentic by most contemporary NT scholars. e.g. See Professor Ludemann's conclusion in his book, Jesus After 2000 Years, p. 24 and p. 694

      Actually, Jesus was a bit "touched". After all he thought he spoke to Satan, thought he changed water into wine, thought he raised Lazarus from the dead etc. In today's world, said Jesus would be declared legally insane.

      Or did P, M, M, L and J simply make him into a first century magic-man via their epistles and gospels of semi-fiction? Most contemporary NT experts after thorough analyses of all the scriptures go with the latter magic-man conclusion with J's gospels being mostly fiction.

      Obviously, today's followers of Paul et al's "magic-man" are also a bit on the odd side believing in all the Christian mumbo jumbo about bodies resurrecting, and exorcisms, and miracles, and "magic-man atonement, and infallible, old, European, white men, and 24/7 body/blood sacrifices followed by consumption of said sacrifices. Yummy!!!!

      So why do we really care what a first century CE, illiterate, long-dead, preacher man would do or say?

      September 26, 2011 at 11:50 am |
    • Richard S Kaiser

      @ Reality,,,,,"So why do we really care what a first century CE, illiterate, long-dead, preacher man would do or say?"

      1. Of Fractal Cosmology does lay the fruits of complexity’s understanding and binds together many untaught verses of Gospel Scripture that many people plainly overlook due their inadvertency to consider them worthy to understand in forthrightedness. In GOD, are all things created and made manifest and held with an affirmation beyond many a person’s abilities for comprehensive attenuations. GOD’s Body is the material Cosmos of the Celestial and GOD’s Holy Spirit is the vastness of the Sea of Nothingness whereupon floats all mannerisms of immeasurable amounts of celestially made universes. Our universe is but one of perchance trillions or even much greater amounts. The Celestial Universes are GOD’s material Body and HIS Holy Spirit is the Sea of Nothingness.

      2. Not only is GOD ever building HIS Body and stretching HIS material Being outwardly upon HIS Cosmology’s Spiritual Sea of Nothingness, GOD allows and has given His Sons (Gods in their own righteousness sakes) their needs to build things accordingly with miniature universes we know of as being “cellular” in our nature of understanding Life‘s compositions. We, our bodies, are as cellular encapsulations wherein each cell of the body is but a miniature universe and our bodies are as but a singularized and miniaturized Cosmos but, as such, we are unlike the grander scale or shape of the ever being built, Celestial Cosmos, the Body of GOD that floats aimlessly yet in due purposefulness upon the Heavenly Sea of Celestial Nothingness, GOD‘s Holy Spirit.

      3. Fractal Cosmology declares that inwardly things are as a sameness upon outwardly things and are only differentiated by their size. The Prime example is that a single atomic-sized “nebula” is equal to, in shapeliness, upon that of an individual celestialized stellar nebula. There are two rather distinct branches of Fractal Cosmology. One branch is Celestial Cosmology. The other distinct branch is Cellular Cosmology. Fractal Cosmology is the Mother of these two branches of Cosmological variances for, without Fractal Cosmology, there could be nothing of materialization and there would be only a Sea of Nothingness.

      4. Therefore These three threads of Material Cosmological Variations are the needed sprouts for things of material values to be and become spawned from the Sea of Nothingness which not only stretches itself outwardly around the Cosmos of Celestial Relativity but also inwardly does this Sea of Nothingness stretch itself around the Cosmos of Atomic Relativity. These voids of Nothingness are the Oceans and Seas and Rivers and Ponds and Streams and Creeks of the Holy Spirit and cannot be separated.

      5. Cellular Cosmology is a clustered and congruent makeup of atomized seismographic nebulas into being manifested as Celled Life Formations. From the most simplest of Life being a single celled organism to the most complex cellularized formations of Life such as mankind are all containing a diversity of, and as, Atomically Established Cellular Organisms living for the most part in harmony together. Each cell is a differentiating complexity of uniformed divisionings amid and due the Inner Made Cosmos of Atomic Nebulas by which all Celestial-Based Life is so made and construed and in conglomerations thereof. Without the complexities of Celestial Opulence, Cellular Aggregates of Atomized Emulations of Life would never occur or be manifested. GOD’s Embodiments of Celestial Universes gives rise to Celestial-Based Cellular Life-Creations wherever possible upon Celestially Opulent places likened our Earthly Heaven‘s manifested Life Formations.

      September 26, 2011 at 12:09 pm |
    • Observer

      Richard,

      If you are incapable of answering questions, at least quit cutting and pasting the same babble.

      September 26, 2011 at 12:29 pm |
    • Toni L

      Mr. Kaiser, I'm still not sure what it is you're trying to say. Can you sum it up in a single paragraph of *slightly* fewer and smaller words? I'm not an idiot, but please humor me, because I don't think you're making your point very clear. Are you for or against the reality of a gay Mormon in a leadership role? Are you for or against LGB or T Christians in general?

      For what it's worth, I am a very Christ-centered individual who falls under at least one of those letters, and I have no doubt that Jesus was INclusive, whereas most mainstream churches are highly EXclusive. Jesus didn't say "come to me, all who seek me...oh, except if you're gay. Oh and don't bother showing up if you're transgender. For that matter, let's go ahead and keep out all the people, too." I'm pretty sure the only condition He put on us was "Love".

      September 26, 2011 at 12:52 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      He's trying to say absolutely nothing, Tony. He's just a troll, wasting time here.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:44 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Dickie must be employing his maw masticating a midday repast of nimobulous proportionate divines, smotherations of mayonnaisical spreadations. And a Diet Coke.

      September 26, 2011 at 1:52 pm |
    • Reality

      And we come to set Richard SK free:

      The Apostles' Creed 2011: (updated by yours truly based on the studies of NT historians and theologians during the past 200 years)

      Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
      and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
      human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven?????

      I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
      preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
      named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
      girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

      Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
      the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

      He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
      a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
      Jerusalem.

      Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
      many semi-fiction writers. A bodily resurrection and
      ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
      Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
      grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
      and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
      called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

      Amen

      September 26, 2011 at 2:30 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.