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Why young Christians aren't waiting anymore
A young Christian at an purity rally spreads the word.
September 27th, 2011
08:39 AM ET

Why young Christians aren't waiting anymore

By John Blake,  CNN

(CNN) –True love doesn’t wait after all.

That’s the implication in the upcoming October issue of an evangelical magazine that claims that young, unmarried Christians are having premarital sex almost as much as their non-Christian peers.

The article in Relevant magazine, entitled “(Almost) Everyone’s Doing It,” cited several studies examining the sexual activity of single Christians. One of the biggest surprises was a December 2009 study, conducted by the National Campaign to Prevent Teen and Unplanned Pregnancy, which included information on sexual activity.

While the study’s primary report did not explore religion, some additional analysis focusing on sexual activity and religious identification yielded this result: 80 percent of unmarried evangelical young adults (18 to 29) said that they have had sex - slightly less than 88 percent of unmarried adults, according to the teen pregnancy prevention organization.

The article highlights what challenges abstinence movements face. Movements such as “True Love Waits,” encourage teens to wear purity rings, sign virginity pledges and pledge chastity during public ceremonies.

Yet many of these Christian youths eventually abandon their purity pledges, Relevant’s Tyler Charles concludes in the article. Tyler talked to people like “Maria,” an evangelical woman who said she wanted to wait until marriage to have sex.

CNN's Belief Blog – all the faith angles to the day's top stories

But she said she started having sex with her college boyfriend when she turned 20 because nearly everyone, even most of  her Christian friends, were having sex.

Maria:

It seemed everyone in my life, older and younger, had “done it.” In fact, I waited longer than most people I knew and longer than both of my sisters, even though we were all Christians and came from a good home.

Relevant theorizes about why it’s so hard for so many young Christians to wait, including the saturation of sex in popular culture, the prevalence of pornography and a popular “do what feels good philosophy.”

Yet the article also asks a question that rarely comes up in discussions about abstinence movement. Relevant notes that in biblical times, people married earlier. The average age for marriage has been increasing in the U.S for the last 40 years.

Today, it’s not unusual to meet a Christian who is single at 30 - or 40 or 50, for that matter. So what do you tell them? Keep waiting?

Scot McKnight, author of “The Jesus Creed,” and "One.Faith: Jesus Calls, We Follow," acknowledges that young, single Christians face temptations that their counterparts in the biblical age didn’t face.

He  tells Relevant:

Sociologically speaking, the one big difference – and it’s monstrous – between the biblical teaching and our culture is the arranged marriages of very young people. If you get married when you’re 13, you don’t have 15 years of temptation.

So what should a Christian parent or youth pastor do? How do they convince more young Christians to wait until marriage, or should they stop even trying?

- CNN Writer

Filed under: Belief • Christianity • Church • Culture & Science • Culture wars

soundoff (5,768 Responses)
  1. mjschumaker

    All of these arguments appear to be mostly about religion, not a relationship with God. Most of the comments reveal a considerable amount of deep seated anger, which is only understandable. I read a psychological principle once that "rules without relationship breed rebellion." This applies to families and society, in general, and churches and religions, in particular. If one takes the time to read scripture, it is clear that Jesus invites us into a loving relationship, both with Him, His Father, and those around us, through the Holy Spirit. It's only natural that I'd be angry and rebellious if I was forced to attend a church, follow a religion, live in a family or go through life forced to follow endless rules without experiencing loving relationships within those circles. I encourage everyone who is looking for love and intimacy to approach God with an open mind and without preconceptions. Christmas is a time when we remember that God entered the world through Jesus and dwelt among us, both loving us and teaching us how to love others. You can experience an eternal love beyond your wildest imagination and your greatest hope.

    December 24, 2011 at 3:50 pm |
    • EricCt

      Beautifully written, and this is from a skeptic.

      December 25, 2011 at 1:52 am |
  2. nonbeliever

    Done for the day folks, off to celebrate my originally pagan holiday, despite what christians might think.

    December 24, 2011 at 3:33 pm |
  3. Moe Smith

    "Why young Christians aren't waiting anymore"

    because there's no reason to. plain. simple. period.

    December 24, 2011 at 2:46 pm |
  4. Joel

    Thank you Kyley and non-believer for showing these others how to have a healthy discussion. Nothing drives me more crazy than seeing a follower of Christ drive a non believer further away with so many hollow and mean-spirited comments. Much respect to the two of you and I look forward to more contributions from you both.

    December 24, 2011 at 10:06 am |
    • nonbeliever

      Of course! I don't care if people believe in christianity or any religion for that matter, but I would hope that they would have the ability to rationally defend their beliefs, which is apparent in my experiences, that most of them do not.

      December 24, 2011 at 1:12 pm |
  5. RASCAL

    everyone like to stretch da flesh of the inner female genitalia!!!

    December 24, 2011 at 9:44 am |
  6. RASCAL

    A hard penis has no conscience and does not read the bible before going taking action!!!

    December 24, 2011 at 9:35 am |
    • RASCAL

      even though it has ONE good eye!!!

      December 24, 2011 at 9:37 am |
  7. Rob

    I thought God told us not to judge others?

    December 24, 2011 at 9:22 am |
    • Bob

      That is a typical misuse of scripture used by people who do not want to be held to any type of standard. That is fine if you don't, but please don't try to hide behind scripture as a way to avoid being corrected.

      December 24, 2011 at 11:01 am |
    • Rick

      Bob: Perhaps it is you that needs correction.

      December 24, 2011 at 12:11 pm |
    • Bob

      I probably do need correction in many areas, but I can still point out such an ignorantly common misuse of scripture.

      December 24, 2011 at 12:13 pm |
    • Rick

      Bob: Fair enough. Have a Merry Christmas

      December 24, 2011 at 1:32 pm |
    • Not Quite

      "That is a typical misuse of scripture used by people who do not want to be held to any type of standard."

      If you say so. I could just the same interpret your statement as a typical deflection from someone who doesn't take the time to ask what others think in the event it might disrupt your worldview. How do you know Rob or anyone who says that doesn't want to be held to a standard?

      "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

      I don't know... since your beliefs say we are all with sin, that kind of sounds like 'don't judge others' to me.

      December 24, 2011 at 2:18 pm |
  8. Realist

    Dear earth, intimacy is normal, natural and meant to be. The reason everyone reading this is here at this day and time is because people stopped waiting…

    I only believe in abstinence for people whom don’t know what they are doing, haven’t thought about the consequence, are reckless with their body, or don’t understand the social implications of intimacy. Other that that, enjoy yourself, pick a partner wisely and celebrate this great gift from whomever you choose to give credit.

    Intimacy, passion, and love is a gift – don’t miss out on what life has to offer.

    December 24, 2011 at 9:20 am |
  9. Geoscientist

    They aren't waiting anymore cuz it feeells sooooo good!

    December 23, 2011 at 9:42 pm |
    • RASCAL

      99% of those poled would rather have a good orgazm than read genesis or exodus, mathew, martin, luke, or johnny, etc!

      December 24, 2011 at 9:42 am |
  10. George

    A question that has to be asked is why do people do that which they know to be wrong? The answer lies in our secular society that says that fo.rnication is ok or even desireable. We have to change our secular society back to basic family values. This is what I mean when I say that we have to get America back to God.

    December 23, 2011 at 9:16 pm |
    • Cerebral1

      Seriously, George? How's the weather on Planet Delusional?

      December 24, 2011 at 8:21 am |
    • Not Quite

      "A question that has to be asked is why do people do that which they know to be wrong?"

      The real question George is how do those that know it to be wrong arrive at that conclusion? Perhaps you arrived at that conclusion, but I have not. Yours seems to be based on a religious construct that was indoctrinated into Christianity somewhere around the 2nd or 3rd century A.D. We would do well in our society to acknowledge and analyze how we formed our beliefs, and if those beliefs are commonly shared throughout society, before developing public policy.

      In short, don't infringe on my pursuit of happiness, thank you.

      December 24, 2011 at 11:46 am |
    • Rick

      Georgie: Face the fact that society does not accept the biblical version or right and wrong. And your empty proxy threats are laughable

      December 24, 2011 at 11:49 am |
  11. Osarenren Ihaza

    No matter what you do, always do the right thing and always d it well.

    December 23, 2011 at 11:04 am |
  12. eamon

    @Josh "So go ahead and eat your "candy", there may not be instantaneous consequences but they will come."

    Hey,man,don´t go around scaring the s**t out of people like that.I´ve just had to throw away my last bar of candy,you spoilsport. What the hell´s got into ypu?

    December 23, 2011 at 10:37 am |
  13. chefdugan

    Greed can only happen when people stop asking intelligent questions and let politicians do their thinking for them. You can't take any of my money unless I let you do so, greedy or not.

    December 23, 2011 at 7:13 am |
    • Tom

      Most irrelevant comment i've seen yet.

      December 23, 2011 at 10:57 am |
  14. Josh

    Who would have thought a religious blog would create so much hostile argument? Probably everyone. But to criticize what you don't and are unwilling to understand is pure ignorance. God has warned us all of what will happen when we sin without repentence, but still people want to compare that notion to Hitler because of the consequences that come from sinful actions. Kind of reminds me of a kid with a bagful are candy after halloween and his parents tell him not to eat it all because it will make him sick. Then, leaving the child in his room with the bag of candy and leaving it up to him to make the decision whether to eat it all or not (just like we all have the freedom to choose to do what we wish), he eats all the candy because his parents are TYRANTS, and what do you know? He's throwing up all night and has an awful stomach ache and can not go to bed, and of course wishes he didn't eat the candy. So go ahead and eat your "candy", there may not be instantaneous consequences but they will come. Just like they came to the people who harrassed Noah for building the arc. And for those of you who do not know the reason behind the flood may want to look that up. But that stuff happened YEARS ago, so why care about it now? Just a little food for thought.

    December 22, 2011 at 5:36 pm |
    • Jonathan

      Amen, Josh. Amen. Could not have put it better myself. God did not make these rules so that we will blindly obey him. He, above all else, knows the consequences of your actions and these rules were put in place to save you from the unwanted effects.

      Your candy analogy was spot on. I applaud you for it.

      December 22, 2011 at 5:53 pm |
    • George

      Right you are. People think that fo.rnication cannot be immoral because to them they aren't hurting anyone. The problem is that they are hurting themselves. It's a cancer on the soul. And how many broken hearts are made much worse because of the involvement of s.e.x? Also there are STD's and unwanted pregnancies. God gives us these laws for our own good, not to be a tyrant.

      December 22, 2011 at 5:54 pm |
    • DUH!

      “Just like they came to the people who harrassed Noah for building the arc”

      Remember idiot your god MURDERED those people. DUH!

      “Then, leaving the child in his room with the bag of candy and leaving it up to him to make the decision whether to eat it all or not”

      Ok idiot let’s take your scenario one step further shall we. Then the parent left the child in his room with the loaded handgun and leaving it up to him to make the decision whether to fir it or not, DUH! If the parents were really doing their JOBS they wouldn’t have left the candy in the first place because they knew the chance the child would eat the candy and get sick! DUH…. The comparison to Hitler is to show you that if you didn’t worship and support Hitler you were sent to the furnishes just like you’re spewing about your god. We all know how immoral, cruel Hitler was and so is your god!

      December 22, 2011 at 6:24 pm |
    • Patrick

      "Kind of reminds me of a kid with a bagful are candy after halloween and his parents tell him not to eat it all because it will make him sick. Then, leaving the child in his room with the bag of candy and leaving it up to him to make the decision whether to eat it all or not (just like we all have the freedom to choose to do what we wish), he eats all the candy because his parents are TYRANTS, and what do you know? He's throwing up all night and has an awful stomach ache and can not go to bed, and of course wishes he didn't eat the candy. "

      I never leave the candy in my child's room so that I know he won't get sick. I even go so far as to bring most of it to the food bank because I know my child doesn't need all that candy. Only a bad parent who doesn't know what they are doing would be so stupid as to leave the candy in the room. If you leave a big bag of dog food open and on the floor a dog will also eat it all till it gets sick. So any good person would know to take the candy out of the room so the temptation wouldn't be there.

      December 22, 2011 at 6:38 pm |
    • Rick

      "God has warned us all of what will happen when we sin without repentence......blah, blah, blah"

      Sorry, Josh. It was man who issued those "warnings". And they are as empty as the proxy threats from believers

      December 23, 2011 at 7:36 am |
    • mlf7777

      This reply is for DUH, didn't I just see you replying on the Salvation Army article, saying that you worked for the S.A. for 25 years? You're just a fake poster. Yeah, you worked for the Salvation Army for the same amount of time that Hitler did. It's obvious that you just hate God and Christians-you even pose as one so you can argue with them. Tell me, do you pose as a Muslim to argue with them? Fake, fake, man-you're faking that too.

      December 23, 2011 at 8:15 am |
    • nonbeliever

      @Josh-

      What is it exactly that I, as a nonbeliever, 'don't or are unwilling to understand'?

      You want us to believe in a god that christians themselves cannot prove is real. You want me to accept the idea, that a virgin was impregnated by the seed of the holy spirit (or an angel depending who you ask) and then later gave birth to a son who was fully god and fully man, all at once, and then died on a cross for my sins, a little too 'fantastic' if you ask me. You want me to believe in a book that was hand picked and put together by man, only allowing letters and writings that were 'like' each other in, while discrediting anything that didn't agree even if it came from the same time frame and the same area. And on top of that, putting in those letters and writings that were historically written no less than 500 years after the death of christ. You want me to believe that your god is right and that every other religion is wrong, when you all have a book that you follow, you all have a relationship with your own god, and you all believe that you are right and everyone else is wrong. You want me to believe in christianity, that has over 30 differing denominations, that follow numerous different translations of their bible. You want me to follow a religion, that has slaughtered millions of people in the crusades in the expanse of a 'loving god.' You want me to believe a religion that oppressed women, African Americans, and now ho.mo.se.xuals. You want me to believe in a religion that covered up for years the mole.station of children. You want me to believe in a religion that has led groups in mass suicide and that protests the funerals of fallen soliders. You want me to belive in a religion that hates and condems anyone and anything that does not fall in line with your beliefs.

      You want me to believe in a religion that is no better than the other religions that you say are false, while at the same time lacking the ability to offer me any kind of proof that your god is even real.

      You want to tell me that I don't understand or am unwilling to understand, but the reason that most people are atheist or agnostic, is because they have taken the time to study religion and history and they have come to the conclusion that it just isn't real. And until your god comes out and makes itself known to the world, it goes on the list of UFO's and Bigfoot. Just another man made creation used to excite the brain of those who are unable to hold a sincere thought.

      December 23, 2011 at 8:24 am |
  15. George

    I think that the problem is not so much with the young Christians as it is with the churches. Churches need to preach on sin more. Young people need to know that going against God could cause them to burn in hell for eternity. Bring back the old "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" type sermons of Jonathan Edwards. Really preach that fo.rnication will lead to hellfire. Don't feed the congregation feel-good pap. Your job is to save souls, not make the congregation feel good about themselves. The fact is that we are all sinners and deserve hell, but if we don't turn from our sins and embrace Jesus that is exactly where we will be going.

    December 22, 2011 at 3:11 pm |
    • Huh

      Thanks George for showing all the young people why attending churches like yours is for losers. I hope they do what you say it will make more people leave faster. Your God is a tyrant, if you don't love and obey it you will burn in a fire! Well guess what we all knew Hitler was a monster for doing the very thing and so is your god!

      December 22, 2011 at 3:17 pm |
    • rick

      Georgie: Those sermons do not resonate with the people. Perhaps this is why the churches abandoned them. As far as Jonathan Edwards is concerned....."Gonna sit down in the kitchen, make me something good to eat, make myself a little high, make the whole day complete". Maybe you should try it, it might help you pull your head out of your rectum

      December 22, 2011 at 4:08 pm |
    • xenophilius

      Wow! You people blame Christians for being intolerant, and yet you are the ones who are bellowing at us!

      Some corrections–George, you say that committing sin could cause one to burn in Hell–that only happens if they don't have the gift of the Holy Spirit in them. If one is a true Christian who has accepted Jesus's sacrifice, their sins will always be completely forgiven. Of course, if one mindlessly commits sin and counts on being forgiven, they probably don't have the Spirit in them. But you are right, churches do need to do more about sin.

      Although I am reluctant to say it, rick is right–those sermons DON'T resonate with the people. That's the whole problem–people don't want to hear that they are doing something wrong, so they try to drive out those who tell them that they are sinning. Some preachers are intimidated by this, so instead of packing up their bags, they stroke their congregation and coo to them: "It's alright, you're not doing anything wrong." And that is a very sad thing.

      Rick, you're also wrong about something–nobody's head is in anybody's rectum. Both Huh and rick are being extremely JUDGEMENTAL and INTOLERANT, the taboo things nowadays, and exactly that which atheists blame religion for doing.

      December 22, 2011 at 4:38 pm |
    • George

      @xenophilius

      "George, you say that committing sin could cause one to burn in Hell–that only happens if they don't have the gift of the Holy Spirit in them. If one is a true Christian who has accepted Jesus's sacrifice, their sins will always be completely forgiven."

      I must respectfully disagree with the above statement. It is the "once saved always saved" doctrine. I believe that even once we repent and turn to Jesus, we must continue to struggle every day against sin and we must sincerely ask forgiveness for our sins and they will be forgiven (Matthew 18:21). However, remember that Jesus told the adultress to "go and sin no more" (John 8:11).

      December 22, 2011 at 5:46 pm |
    • Rick

      xenophilius: perhaps it is not that people don't want to hear they are doing wrong, perhaps it is they are not beholding to the bible for their definition of right and wrong.

      December 22, 2011 at 7:06 pm |
    • Rick

      Also, Xenophilious, Georgie has blathered on with (empty) proxy threats to atheists. Anyone who expects that people can fear retaliation (judgement for the pious folk) from a being in which do not believe certainly does have their heads inserted snugly

      December 22, 2011 at 7:27 pm |
    • nonbeliever

      And this is a perfect example of why christianity is so faulty. You have two christians, arguing over essential doctrine in their belief, and they can't even agree. One believes "once saved, always saved." And another does not. This is a pretty big issue when it comes to what your christ has done or not done (in atonement of sins) and how your god opperates. Most christians don't take the time to study these things and to learn about their religion in depth and why there are more than 30 differing denominations with many different ideas of what gets you into heaven or not.

      Just look at christianity, the blatant inconsistencies, and tell me how I'm supposed to believe that your religion is correct?

      December 23, 2011 at 7:33 am |
    • George

      @unbeliever

      This is a belief blog. In truth, this should be a place where people of faith come to discuss various issues of faith. I can disagree with xen and still have respect for him as a Christian. You atheists however have no respect for anyone whose opinions aren't in lock-step with your own. You come on a belief blog and reduce everything to atheists vs. believers. It is impossible to have a discussion with another Christian. Why don't you get a nonbelief blog so you can spew your hatred there?

      December 23, 2011 at 2:17 pm |
    • nonbeliever

      @George-

      Obviously you don't take the time to truly read what I write or you would know, as I've stated several times, that I do believe in god, just not the christian one. And this is a BELIEF section, not a christian section. Not believing is christianity, is still a belief, which gives me just as much right to post on here as you do.

      What you fail to grasp, is your lack of knowledge and understanding of your own religion. Most people who are atheist or agnostic are that way because they have taken the time to study and understand why your religion is so fallible. Why is that so hard for you to understand? You never answer my questions or take the time to debate with me on my points. You do this either because you don't have the knowledge base to do so or because you simply are a troll trying your best to create hatred from other people. I have no problem with people who want to follow a religion. But if they are going to spout out nonsense as to why they believe and as to what they believe, then I will use my education and knowledge to explain to them why they are wrong.

      It's really quite that simple. And george, you are always wrong.

      December 24, 2011 at 9:22 am |
    • Rick

      George: Atheists can respect Christians without respecting blowhards. You are in the latter category. Merry Christmas

      December 24, 2011 at 1:34 pm |
  16. Mandy

    It is strange that so-called Christians can allow themselves to relate the permissive culture?
    Or does Satan mis-guide them into thinking that they are in a Christian country?
    Switching to being a practicing muslim it is much easier to be chaste, because other practicing muslims will re-inforce this value. Also, we are very aware that the values around us run counter to our beliefs. We encourage getting married young. I got married when I was 17, whilst I was studying and before I went to University. It also helps whilst studying because I don't feel any need to attend any wild parties.

    December 22, 2011 at 10:51 am |
  17. Capt. Telnet

    I've just scrolled down through the entirety of the comments on this page, seeing the arguments put forth by both Keith and Rick and everyone else. There are many fallacies with the things Keith has said and I cannot take his side but I can say that by just dismissing his opinions and claiming that he is tyrant rather than trying to explain why he is wrong is just promoting the same kind of intolerance that he feels. Arguing with someone who is convinced they are right is like arguing with a wall, and I seriously think that Keith isn't going to change his opinion based upon what we say here.

    December 22, 2011 at 9:44 am |
    • rick

      how does one argue with someone who spews out scripture as if it had validity to the person receiving it?

      December 22, 2011 at 1:19 pm |
  18. Holly

    Christian leaders should be doing more to encourage marriage, to perhaps marry younger, with shorter engagements. Christians in America are waiting too long to get married, into their 30's or 40's. This is a recipe for disaster if they are attempting to follow the Bible teachings and remain chaste.

    December 21, 2011 at 11:35 am |
    • rick

      Holly: And people that marry young get divorced at twice the rate of those who wait

      December 21, 2011 at 12:29 pm |
    • Kim

      Just because you get married young does not mean you are doomed to get divorced. The divorce rate is higher than 50 percent. That is high. It depends who you are and what you want out of life. I know a lot of people who got married at around 20 years old and 20-30 years later they are going strong. Do not just assume because you get married young you will get divorced.

      December 21, 2011 at 7:11 pm |
    • Rick

      Kim: That very well may be true, but overall, the rate of divorce is higher for people that marry young. Most people are different emotionally at 30 than they were at 20.

      December 22, 2011 at 3:20 am |
  19. Keith

    You know what cnn? I find your photo for this story of a man and woman in bed offensive. Why don't you do a story about qu eer muslims and display a picture of two muslim men in bed? Because your editor would have a fatwa issued on his ass, that's why not. cnn-you suck.

    December 20, 2011 at 6:01 pm |
    • Min.Kenneth Emmanuel Sr

      You are so right my friend. They are only doing their father the devils work. Planting seeds of lies. You know how young folks are very impressionable. Everybody's else is doing it, so I may as well do it too. The Pastor says the Lord will forgive anything. But they have not read their bibles. The book of Hebrews 10:26 says:
      For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
      No Christ is not the fool so many lie & make him out to be!!!

      December 20, 2011 at 11:49 pm |
    • Rick

      Min.Kenneth: Is the Christian magazine planting "Seeds of lies" also? Tell us why you think that the bible, with stories eminating from the bronze and iron ages, is at all relevant to the 21st century.

      December 21, 2011 at 4:43 am |
    • HotAirAce

      Keith, what is offensive about that picture? Why do you always go on about gays and islam? Why aren't you content to live a christiam life without causing hatred?

      December 21, 2011 at 5:23 am |
    • rick

      Keith: Did you even read the article? This is based on the results of a study published in a Christian magazine. And, what is it about a man and woman in bed that bothers you? Not getting any, are ya?

      December 21, 2011 at 7:32 am |
    • Keith

      ace & Rick, perhaps this is why you can't grasp this: Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

      December 21, 2011 at 8:21 am |
    • rick

      Keith: That is a cop-out. What specifically bothers you about a picture of a man and a woman in bed together? None of their naughty bits are showing, so what is it?

      December 21, 2011 at 8:50 am |
    • Keith

      ace, I'm not content for several reasons: 1) both lead to destruction. 2) H0m0's are not content to just live their sinful lifestyle and leave everyone else alone-they are militant and in your face-to the point of indoctrinating children through the public schools here in the United States(of which you are not a citizen) 3) islam is a false knock-off religion of Christianity and Judiasm that Satan created to deceive many and lead them to hell and it is also in your face with its strategy out breeding its enemies and then bringing Sharia Law to them through democracy. What is totally hillarious is that the h0m0's are the useful idiots of islam-and when islam is done using them-they will get a rope strung around their necks. Bottom line is this: both are leading people away from the Savior and to destruction-I cannot stand by and let that happen. Both of these peoplegroups need to be plucked from the fires of hell.

      December 21, 2011 at 8:51 am |
    • Keith

      Rick, The ti-tle of the article combined with that photo would tick off any Christian. I'm sick of cnn using Christianity as a punching bag. They wouldn't dare try this with islam because their offices would be bombed-and they know it. So cnn defends islam and bashes Christianity every chance they get. Their schtick is getting old.

      December 21, 2011 at 9:02 am |
    • rick

      Keith: Isn't that charming? Justifying your bigotry through ancient tales. Congrats, you are a bright one.

      December 21, 2011 at 9:25 am |
    • rick

      Keith: CNN was reporting on a poll published in a Christian magazine. Don't purport to speak for all Christians as to that picture

      December 21, 2011 at 9:27 am |
    • HellBent

      "H0m0's are not content to just live their sinful lifestyle and leave everyone else alone-they are militant and in your face-to the point of indoctrinating children through the public schools here in the United States(of which you are not a citizen)"

      Racists would say the same thing about interracial marriage.

      December 21, 2011 at 9:28 am |
    • rick

      Christians are not content to just live their self-righteous self delusion, and leave everyone else alone-they are militant and in your face-to the point of trying to indoctrinate your children through the public schools here in the United States.

      See how that works, Keith?

      December 21, 2011 at 9:32 am |
    • rick

      HellBent: Well, you got to remember, only select people are authorized to speak for god. These include Keith, Georgie Porgie, Ranier, and a few to be name later, for a prophet

      December 21, 2011 at 9:34 am |
    • rick

      Keith: They are militant? Gee, I suppose being called a sinful ho-mo by bible sod-om-zing inbreds would tend to do that.

      December 21, 2011 at 9:37 am |
    • Keith

      Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

      December 21, 2011 at 9:44 am |
    • Keith

      Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

      December 21, 2011 at 9:46 am |
    • HellBent

      @Keith – Lev 19:19: Do poly-cotton blends also make you nauseous? Or do you cherry-pick the bible to feed your hate?

      December 21, 2011 at 9:48 am |
    • Keith

      Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have co-mmitted an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

      December 21, 2011 at 9:48 am |
    • rick

      Death happens for all. Your Iron Age comic book is not relevant to our time.

      December 21, 2011 at 9:48 am |
    • Keith

      Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

      December 21, 2011 at 9:51 am |
    • Keith

      Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

      December 21, 2011 at 9:52 am |
    • HellBent

      @Keith: Lev 21:17-18. Do you also hate the handicapped?

      December 21, 2011 at 9:52 am |
    • TruthPrevails

      Quoting scripture is like quoting nursery rhymes...no place in a adult world. Your buybull is bigoted and so are you....simply and as always, you're wrong! The APA has stated that being h.omo.se.xual is not a choice and is in fact something people are born to be. Once again, recent scientific data trumps the buybull.

      December 21, 2011 at 9:52 am |
    • Keith

      Hellbent, Apparently not. 2Sa 9:13 So Mephibosheth dwelt in Jerusalem: for he did eat continually at the king's table; and was lame on both his feet.

      December 21, 2011 at 9:56 am |
    • Keith

      TruthPrevails, Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

      December 21, 2011 at 9:59 am |
    • Keith

      rick, Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

      December 21, 2011 at 10:04 am |
    • Keith

      rick, Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

      Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

      Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

      Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

      December 21, 2011 at 10:06 am |
    • rick

      "Twinkle, twinkle, little star,
      How I wonder what you are.
      Up above the world so high,
      Like a diamond in the sky."

      See how easy it is, Keith?

      December 21, 2011 at 10:08 am |
    • HellBent

      Keith, a.k.a. Cherry Picker Extraordinaire – that passage from Hebrews simple shows that a king will eat with the handicapped. Lev. clearly shows that god disfavors the handicapped. Try again.

      December 21, 2011 at 10:10 am |
    • Keith

      Psa 53:1 ¶ [[To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, [A Psalm] of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: [there is] none that doeth good.

      December 21, 2011 at 10:10 am |
    • Keith

      Pro 10:8 The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall.

      December 21, 2011 at 10:11 am |
    • Keith

      Hellbent, That would be 2nd Samuel, not Hebrews, mr. expert. And the context was that this young man was the last of King Saul's line. Normally, a remnant of a defeated king would have been put to death-you know so neither they nor their offspring would rise up in the future and try to regain the throne. Instead, King David showed mercy to him and made him welcome and gave him an honorary place. In much the same way God shows us mercy(for those who accept Him as Lord) and welcomes us into his kingdom and treats us better than we deserve. But for those who reject Him-God's wrath abides on them.

      December 21, 2011 at 10:20 am |
    • Keith

      Hellbent, Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

      December 21, 2011 at 10:22 am |
    • HellBent

      @Keith – so you chose to ignore the Lev passage – which is exactly what I thought – you cherry pick only those verses which fit your own morality and justify the hatred in your heart. Thanks for the confirmation.

      December 21, 2011 at 10:22 am |
    • HellBent

      @Keith – I also notice you ignored the fixed textiles passage as well. Typical – dodge, deflect, ignore, and then post some totally random passage about how god will make people suffer. You and Vlad the Impaler would have gotten along swimmingly.

      December 21, 2011 at 10:24 am |
    • rick

      Spouting EMPTY PROXY THREATS make you feel God-like, little fella?

      December 21, 2011 at 10:25 am |
    • Keith

      Hellbent, I ignore nothing. I've never studied that particular passage. No big deal. Just because I don't yet understand something in the Bible, doesn't mean suddenly the entire book becomes false. Just because you encounter something in mathematics that you don't understand-do you totally discredit math? I think not. What I've found by past experience is that by careful study apparent contradictions can be examined and explained. Perhaps someone who has studied this verse would like to render an explanation.

      December 21, 2011 at 10:30 am |
    • HellBent

      " I've never studied that particular passage."

      I didn't really need additional confirmation that you blatantly cherry-pick, but I appreciate the confirmation none-the-less. The passages that I gave were in the same book as the passages you use to spew your hate. You're obviously only studying the passages that fuel your hate for those that you either don't understand or are not like you. Try reading your WHOLE bible sometime. You're giving decent christians a bad name.

      December 21, 2011 at 10:37 am |
    • Keith

      Hellbent, I do not dodge, deflect, or ignore. I point out the fact that you are lost. Not saved. If you die today-you will go to hell. I don't say this to theaten you-I simply point out a fact. I don't want you to go to hell. On the contrary, I want you to avoid it. Jesus spent much time describing hell as a very real place so as to deter people from going there. He is the Way that was made so you wouldn't have to go there. If and when you go to hell, just remember this: you picked the lock and kicked the door in to get there. But once you're in and you realize that you made the biggest mistake ever-there's no 2nd chance to change your mind. Or should I say you will change your mind, but your fate will have been sealed. Permantely.

      December 21, 2011 at 10:44 am |
    • Keith

      Just what is YOUR definition of a decent Christian? Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ

      December 21, 2011 at 10:47 am |
    • So

      "Not saved. If you die today-you will go to hell. I don't say this to theaten you-I simply point out a fact."

      Fact means you have actual proof, what proof do you have that hell is a real place. Plus on a tyrant uses fear as a way to get their subjects to obey and love them. Your god is nothing more than a tyrant and a monster.

      FEAR = Fear: False Evidence Appearing Real

      December 21, 2011 at 10:47 am |
    • rick

      "I don't say this to theaten you-I simply point out a fact"

      You sure play fast and loose with the word "fact", don't you?

      Tell us all how you verify this "fact"

      December 21, 2011 at 10:49 am |
    • Keith

      Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

      December 21, 2011 at 10:50 am |
    • Keith

      Jhn 8:9 And they which heard [it], being convicted by [their own] conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, [even] unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

      December 21, 2011 at 10:53 am |
    • rick

      Tell us all how you verify this "fact"

      December 21, 2011 at 10:57 am |
    • Duh

      DUH Keith quoting from the bible isn't proof moron.

      December 21, 2011 at 10:57 am |
    • Keith

      Pro 14:16 A wise [man] feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.

      December 21, 2011 at 10:57 am |
    • HotAirAce

      Isn't leviticus from the old testament? Didn't the jesus myth relieve believers from the old testament myth? If not, when is Newt's stoning scheduled?

      December 21, 2011 at 10:58 am |
    • HellBent

      Keith isn't quoting – he's just copy-pasting. He clearly has no understanding of what he's spouting.

      December 21, 2011 at 10:59 am |
    • Keith

      Pro 18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

      December 21, 2011 at 11:00 am |
    • rick

      "Keith isn't quoting – he's just copy-pasting. He clearly has no understanding of what he's spouting"

      The structure is what keeps morons quoting the bible

      December 21, 2011 at 11:02 am |
    • Keith

      Pro 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.

      December 21, 2011 at 11:03 am |
    • Keith

      1Cr 13:1 ¶ Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal

      December 21, 2011 at 11:07 am |
    • HotAirAce

      I think Keith is jacking off, looking at the terrible picture above and furiously pulling crap from The Babble. He will explode soon and then we won't hear from him for a while.

      December 21, 2011 at 11:08 am |
    • Pam

      Evil Does Not Exist – Only Stupidity

      Some beliefs hold to a dualistic system of good versus evil. It is the belief that there is only one force of goodness (God) and only one force of badness (Satan). In between are humans who are little more than pawns on a big chessboard for these two equally opposing forces to battle over. Throughout history, this belief system has been held by millions and millions of people. But NDE testimonies are giving us much better insights into whether such theological and philosophical concepts are actually valid. NDE testimonies offer us a much more realistic and logical solution to the classical paradox concerning "the problem of evil." What the religious traditions of the world perceive to be "sins," NDE testimonies reveal to be "mistakes" which God allows humans to make for the purposes of their higher education and spiritual evolution. What these religious traditions perceive to be "evil," NDE testimonies reveal to be "ignorance." What humans perceive as "the devil made me do it," NDE testimony reveals to be "our own ego and negative thought process." The following NDE insights reveal the true nature of human failings.

      Howard Storm was given the following insights from beings of light after his life review when he was fearful of returning to Earth life and afraid he would make mistakes again: Mistakes are an acceptable part of being human. We are here to make all the mistakes we want because it is through our mistakes that we learn. As long as we try to do what we know to be right, we will be on the right path. If we make a mistake, we should fully recognize it as a mistake, then put it behind us and simply try not to make the same mistake again. The important thing is to try our best, keep our standards of goodness and truth, and not compromise them to win people's approval. God loves us just the way we are, mistakes and all. When we make a mistake, we should ask for forgiveness. After that, it would be an insult if we don't accept that we are forgiven. We shouldn't continue going around with a sense of guilt, and we should try not to repeat our mistakes. We should learn from our mistakes. God wants us to do what we want to do. That means making choices – and there isn't necessarily any right choice. There are a spectrum of possibilities, and we should make the best choice from those possibilities. If we do that, we will receive help from the Other Side. (Rev. Howard Storm)

      December 21, 2011 at 11:12 am |
    • Pam

      There really is no sin as it is known in the world. The only thing that has any meaning in the spirit world is what we think. The very core of our being is perfect love and light. (Jayne Smith)

      There is no evil in any human soul. It is the lack of love that distorts people. We are designed by God to self-correct, just like the rest of the universe. No one is lost because everyone is already saved. (Mellen-Thomas Benedict)

      The more we exercise our individual consciousness and free will for self-interest, self-gratification, self-centeredness, and self-consciousness, the more we heightened our sense of self apart from the Whole. This separation of self from the Whole is what people call "sin". (Edgar Cayce)

      The greatest enemy we can face is ourselves. (George ANDErson)

      Hell refers to levels of negative thought-forms that reside in close proximity to the Earth realm. It is where we go to work out, or remain within, our hang-ups, addictions, fears, guilt, angers, rage, regrets, self-pity, arrogance, or whatever else blocks us from the power of our own light. We stay in hell (and there are many divisions to this vibratory level) for however long best serves our development. There is no coNDEmnation here, only the outworking of our own misjudgments, mistakes, misalignments, and misappropriations – what some people call "sin". (Dr. PMH Atwater)

      Negative thought vibrations out of ignorance. High vibrations indicate love and spiritual development, while low vibrations indicate debasement and evil." (Arthur Yensen)

      Evil and the devil do not exist. What people consider evil is really ignorance. Hitler was not an evil man. He was just so incredibly ignorant that he was practically retarded at a spiritual level. Such people are to be pitied and our unconditional love should exteNDEd even to him because it is hard to hate a retarded person. (Kevin Williams)

      I knew that as part of his plan - as part of our growth - God may allow us to go through trials in a sorting-out period, a cleansing, a purification time when we are often forced to make new decisions based upon our current faith and trust in him. (Betty Eadie)

      If each of us shares our light, soon all dark corners will be reached, and we will begin the healing of the world by chasing out darkness. We, too, will begin the healing of our own souls. (Betty Eadie)

      December 21, 2011 at 11:15 am |
    • Keith

      Pro 13:16 Every prudent [man] dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open [his] folly. Thanks for explaining yourself, Pam.

      December 21, 2011 at 2:40 pm |
    • nonbeliever

      John 14:15- If you love me you will keep my commandments.

      Matthew 5:29-30 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into he.ll. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into he.ll

      Leviticus 3:17- This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live: You must not eat any fat or any blood.

      Exodus 35:2- For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

      Deuteronomy 21:18-21- If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

      Deuteronomy 25:11,12- If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.

      Matthew 27:5- So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

      John 13:15- I have set you an example that you should do as I have shown for you.

      I take a few days off and come back to this madness. But picking and choosing what the bible says, is a lot of fun. I enjoy doing it thoroughly.

      December 22, 2011 at 8:41 am |
    • Brittney

      Keith- don't be deterred by the evidently hateful responses. Keep at it friend.

      December 22, 2011 at 10:44 am |
    • rick

      Brittney: Keith is a blowhard who couldn't provide a rational argument if his life depended on it. You apparently find him convincing. Too bad

      December 22, 2011 at 4:12 pm |
    • Kyley

      In regards to these posts about Bible verses in Leviticus and apparent contradictions and absurdities:

      Not every verse in the Bible is meant to be lifted out, without context, and as-sumed to be a commandment that should be upheld by modern day Christians as written. This doesn't invalidate the Bible or give a green light to cherry picking. (Though many people do cherry pick) Read on...

      If you study the Bible you will notice that the Old Testament has three different categories of laws:

      1. Ceremonial Laws. These are laws that talk about methods of performing sacrifices and different (sometimes absurd sounding) regulations about not mixing materials in clothing (lev 19:19), what foods should and should not be eaten (this is where the Kosher laws stem from), etc. These laws were fulfilled by Jesus' death and resurre-ction – No longer do people need to try to be pure by ceremonial laws, but purity is obtained by Jesus paying the penalty for whatever wrong they've done, knowingly or unknowingly, and whoever accepts that free gift is made pure. So – no more need for ceremonial laws. In regards to the verse mentioned in posts above about handicaps (Lev 21:17-18) – This is in a part of scripture that is talking very specifically about requirements for priests and no one else. This doesn't mean God hates handicaps. To say there can be no handicapped priest does indeed sound bigoted, but the regulations here were basically requiring the priest's to be as "perfect" as possible. The priests were responsible for presenting sacrifices before God to atone for people's sins. For the priest to be as perfect as possible was simply a foreshadow of the greatest presenter of sacrifice that was to come – Jesus. Jesus lived a perfect life without blemish – This regulation for the priests was simply a for-eshadow of that.

      2. Civil laws. One of the things that the Old Testament does very thoroughly is docu-ment the formation of the nation of Israel from the ground up. Israel was formed as a theocracy, and the very law book of the nation was the first 5 books of the Old Testament. So, you'll see there are a lot of crime-and-punishment laws present, particularly ones that talk about certain pena-lties that occur for certain crimes (i.e., committing adultery incurs stoning). These laws were meant for the theocratic nation of Israel as it formed in the Old Testament, they are not intended to be applied by us. There are some principals that can be drawn from them (like, don't commit adultery) but since we are not the theocratic old testament nation of Israel, the crime and punishment laws are not for us.

      3. Moral laws. These laws are timeless and still applicable today. They are summed up in the 10 commandments and further explained in other parts of the old and new testaments.

      When reading the Bible, you must be aware of why things were written and the cultural and societal context in which they were written. Choosing which verses in the Bible are meant to be applied today can be done through understanding this. This doesn't mean we should be picking out stuff we like vs stuff we don't like and it also doesn't undermine the validity of the Bible. It simply means with a little bit of study we can understand why these things were written, what audience they were written to, and how to apply them.

      December 22, 2011 at 5:14 pm |
    • nonbeliever

      @Kyley-

      What's ironic, is that you are the first person to bring this up in the whole time I've been on here. I've been waiting for someone to bring up the contextual idea of scripture, that most christians choose to either look over or not understand, specifically in the idea of the law systems. In all my studying of the old testament (and the bible in general), rationally you had to come to this conclusion. Those who read the old testament and feel the need to implement regulations on women in society and the stoning of children who disobey their parents, are, for lack of better term, ignorant.

      However, in all my time of seminary, and my studying of theology, this is something that truly bothers me. The context of scripture in general. Most people don't understand the history of scripture and where it truly comes from. In all my time in church and in the ministry, never once did I hear a preacher go over the contextual differences in the translation and historical references between the old and new testament. Or that there are numerous different translations of the greek passages, that can truly influence the idea of scripture in the context of it in general. Christians want to pick and choose scripture to point out the wrong in peoples lives, they don't want to take the time to read the passage in context. I don't really have the time to point out in full on here the different number of contextual issues from old to new testament, or even from gospel of mark (the first recorded gospel) to the others and the rest of the new testament letters. What I can say, is that when you do study the idea of christianity as a whole, the history of the bible and the balance of scriptures from old to new, you can find contextual differences that negatively impact the validity of the bible.

      Context is the key. Studying the history and what the passages were really saying makes a huge difference in the understanding of the bible. These are issues not talked about, because the fear of the backlash. It is easier to point out the speck in your brothers eye than your own. It leads more people to the alter and away from the he.ll they are taught to believe in.

      December 23, 2011 at 9:40 am |
    • Kyley

      nonbeliever:

      Churches are like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get.

      OK, that was pretty corny. But there exists good churches, bad churches, and everything in between. I too have seen a fair share of churches that preach very selectively from the bible, pulling verses out of context in order to advance a specific agenda. Sometimes it's a good agenda, sometimes it's neutral, and sometimes it's severely questionable. But in all cases, it is never a good thing to preach out of context. But I have also seen churches that do a great job of explaining the cultural and historical background of whatever they are preaching on, and even diving into the original greek/hebrew/aramaic that the verse was written in. The Calvary Chapel group of churches does a particularly good job at this – they literally preach through the entire Bible, Sunday by Sunday. I don't attend a Calvary Chapel church (I go to one that does though do a good job at dilligently studying the Bible) but enjoy listening to the podcasts of a guy out of a church in new jersey at ccob.org. He's the only person I've heard preach through the entire books of Exodus, Deuteronomy, and Leviticus and I couldn't believe that it was actually completely fascinating.

      Anyways, I'm sorry your experiences with churches have been mainly bad, even if I had nothing to do with it. :) I myself have not yet come across a compelling contextual problem with the Bible. I have to say though, the validity of the bible is a vital part of my faith, but there are other aspects that form the foundation of my faith. One is how God has completely transformed my character from what I used to be. Personally, I know this wasn't because I willed myself into it. I know myself and I know it was a change of my heart that would not have happened otherwise. As an outsider, though, you might argue that I would've had the same thing happen if I had read and applied one of Oprah Winfrey's latest self-help books. I don't agree – but fine. Let's say that's possible. I've also experienced and seen more tangible things happen that could not be explained away... Healings, for example. In church one day, completely randomly, this neck and back pain I had struggled with for years as a result of sitting a desk 8 – 10 hours a day using bad posture was instantly healed. Strangest thing ever. From the pulpit the preacher said, "Someone here has a lump in there neck"... I thought to myself hmmmm I do (I had one particularly large, painful muscle knot in my neck I had been complaining about for years)... So I reached back, and bam, it was gone. And so was all of the pain in my neck and up and down my spine. I've also seen a bunch of other things like this happen to others.... Legally blind people see, golf-ball sized kidney stones disappear...

      December 23, 2011 at 3:05 pm |
    • nonbeliever

      @Kyley-

      Thank you for taking the time to write a response. I want to make sure you understand thay my experiences in church, seminary, really anything christian related were not bad. I had some amazing time and experiences in those moments. My best friend who was my best man in my wedding after I left christianity went on to get his doctorate in theology. So please know that I didn't leave because of some negative experience. I think that can be confused within christians who turned atheist or agnostic, that something bad happened to them and that's why they left and now hate the church. I don't hate the church or christianity at all. However, what I do hate, is that I don't feel as if people are taught the whole truth. I feel they are taught a veiled truth or idea of truth that isn't exactly real.

      Before I left, I too went to a church that practiced in expository preaching. Going through whole books, chapter by chapter or chunk by chunk instead of picking and choosing out of context many different passages to make a point. Most churches avoid expository, because the pastor doesn't want to run into a situation where he or she might not be able to explain what is being read or they are afraid that the sunday morning lesson wont be entertaining enough to keep people interested. The fact of the matter is, most christians wont take the time to really read through the bible, they will either stay close to the chapters or the verses that mean the most to them, or they will only take what they learn on Sunday mornings to be truth. Most christians I know, don't take the time to educate themselves on what their bible really says. I avoid listing specifics on here or giving my examples because it would take up more room than I am probably allowed, but I have written several articles for atheist blogs and so forth on the contextual errors within the bible. One day I'll figure out how to start my own website and start listing my writings on there. If you would like some examples, I can possibly break down a few of my favorite examples on here, if you are interested. I will say this, my best friend and others that I were in seminary with (along with my professor) talked a lot about how having a belief that christianity was real was very hard for them from a standpoint that a lot of things just did not make sense. This was spurned by the idea of learning the deep history of scripture, how the bible was put together, studying greek and hebrew in depth, and taking the time to really read and study the bible. They came to the crossroads where they had to go with their brain that was telling them it wasn't real, or just continue to have faith that it was and focus their life completely on that. I went with my brain.

      And to your last point about healing. This is one thing that gets brought up very often when it comes to god and christ and his ability to 'prove' himself. However, healing to me is a real issue when it comes to proving there is a god. What about the people that devote their lives to christ that aren't healed? What about those who die or the parents who struggle for years to get pregnant, finally do, only for god to take their baby shortly after even though they prayed so hard for it? Or how about the person redeemed from alcohol abuse through christ, only a few years later to fall into it again? For every story of redemption within christianity, whether it be healing or the 'changing' of ones life as you have talked about, there is a story where god took away or killed or destroyed the same people who prayed and loved the same god. That to me just doesn't make sense. Or what about the people healed from tumors and cancer and terminal diseases that don't believe in god? Or aren't christians, maybe another religion? There have always been medical miracles in and out of the church. There are also studies of people being able to influence the mind to heal their body. Almost like positive reinforcement (positive energy), but allowing them to be healed from pains that they had for years. Some of those healings that happen in churches can be equated to the mind believing so hard that they can be healed, that they are.

      The problem is, for every christ healing, I can give you a simple medical mystery. And as quickly as people want to use the healing as proof that god exists, fail to acknowledge that when god 'does not heal' or god 'allows' terrible things to happen should be equal proof to the denying of god. On top of that, I have been more at peace and happier with my life since I left christianity than I ever was while I was in it. I spend my time and effort taking care of me and my life instead of relying on god to do it. It's amazing how much better life is when people seek to make themselves happy over some mystical force.

      Look forward to your thoughts.

      December 24, 2011 at 9:01 am |
    • Keith

      Brittney, Thanks for your support. I was away for a day-abusing my children at an indoor waterpark. Tom, Tom the Piper's son will no doubt add this horrific event to her case against me to child protective services. All kidding aside, though I may grow weary, the Holy Spirit will recharge my batteries. Kyley appears to have done a decent job in my stead. You see, I do expositional commentary studies as nonbeliever does. I have no idea how he could possibly watch a 24 hour study on Genesis by Dr. Chuck Missler and not have to re-evaluate his current beliefs? He accuses me of using scripture out ot context-which is a pre-text. I do not. nonbeliever reminds me of my brother- a ton of head knowledge and zero heart knowledge. A Pharisee. There never was the breath of the Holy Spirit in him, too bad really. Their minds and actions are reprobate to the ninth. But I am me. I'm a construction worker. I'm a hard-headed brawler when I have to be. I would probably be more of a Simon-Peter being reprimanded to put away my sword. But it's who I am. I just pray that God would continue to use me when and where He sees fit. And that I obey His promptings, whether to speak or be silent. In this case, He sent Kyley to take over. One plants. Another waters. But God gets the increase. It's all about Him.

      December 24, 2011 at 10:17 am |
    • Keith

      nonbeliever, I will borrow this from Chuck Missler: God changed Abram and Sarai to Abraham and Sarah. Added was the "ah" the breath of God, or in other words-His Holy Spirit. You apparently were never saved and as such do not have the Holy Spirit in you. If this is indeed the case, you are going to be judged more strictly because you know more and yet willingly choose to necglect so great a salvation. If I were in your shoes, I would definetly be concerned. You are walking on 1 inch of ice over the fires of hell right now. I certainly hope that the scales would be removed from your eyes before it is too late. And I would warn you against causing others to follow you. Because at the rate your going, you will find yourself at the Great White Throne judgement for un-believers. And the books will be opened and you will be held accountable for every single soul that you led astray to damnation. I don't think I need to expound on this, because if you are who you claim to be-no further explanation is needed.

      December 24, 2011 at 10:37 am |
    • Keith

      Wow, just looking over Pam's posts, again. Talk about doctrines of demons. Woof. Don't believe a word of it.

      December 24, 2011 at 10:54 am |
    • nonbeliever

      @Keith-

      What is ironic about your praise of Kyley is that in her first post, she was bashing your flippant attempts to drop scripture out of context. Which is exactly what I did as well.

      Where it gets better than that is your use of Chuck Missler as a source of knowledge and teaching. A "doctorate" that he received from an unaccredited online university by simply writing a single research paper. A man who has been accused (and admitted to) multiple times of blatant plagiarism, a man who swindled people out of thousands of dollars in profiteering off of the "supposed" Y2K event, who preached that he believed that the face of Mars proved that there was life on it and that Martians were hiding on the moon and going to attack us from there (this was of course to lead to the beginning of the tribulation), and who has been rejected or discredited by every sensible christian organization in the country. These are just a few facts about Mr. Missler and why he is crazy and as he was clearly declared in my time in seminary as a "false teacher." I have watched his video over Daniel, and it was clear enough, the man is truly clueless.

      You are right about one thing, I have plenty of head knowledge, but my heart is just fine. You have been bottled into a world that you believe to be true because you have yet discovered the ability to think for yourself. My scales have been removed, because I can now discern between fact and fallisy. I urge you to stop drinking the kool-aid. To take some time to research and learn on your own. You have been instilled with this fear of he.ll so deeply, that you can't take the time to educate yourself on the history of your religion, the Greek and Hebrew context of your scripture as well as the context of the time frame it was meant for.

      The god you serve is one of love, and you have spouted nothing but hatred and evil in your words. It is not your place to judge me or anyone else on this earth, your god made it clear that was his responsibility. So take some time to examine your own heart, speak to your imaginiary holy spirit, and maybe you'll be able to find some idea of truth in your life.

      December 24, 2011 at 11:31 am |
    • Keith

      nonbeliever, I did not know that about Chuck Missler. I'm sure everything you've said about him is true. I guess that's why he was a general in the Air Force and in charge of guided missiles for North America. A real kook, huh? They certainly have no psychological screenings for that positioin. Or an executive for Ford?

      December 24, 2011 at 12:42 pm |
    • nonbeliever

      @Keith-

      Did you really just say that someone must not have psychological issues because they were in the military or because they were an executive? As if those two things, as if ANYTHING in this world keeps that from happening to you? I think you just proved my point about you and your brain washed mind 100%.

      December 24, 2011 at 1:05 pm |
    • Keith

      unbeliever, The Bible has much to say about your sort:Rom 1:18 ¶ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

      Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

      Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

      Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

      Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

      Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

      December 24, 2011 at 2:23 pm |
    • Keith

      I say it a little differently: You're so smart that you're stupid.

      December 24, 2011 at 2:24 pm |
    • Keith

      nonbeliever and kyley, perhaps kyley could tell me if she was "bashing" my "flippant" attempts at quoting scripture. Futhermore, I fail to see where I used any of the verses out of context. I've seen your kind before. You may have started out okay, but Satan has definetyly effectively placed a stumbling block in your path. Like an IED that has blown off one of your legs and given you a concussion-you spin in a circle thinking you're fine while you bleed to death. You need to wake up before it's too late.

      December 24, 2011 at 2:55 pm |
  20. Religion

    Why do you have to see God to belive there is a God. Does it matter if he is a physical item? Does he or she have to be called God, budda, or whatever the muslums call him. or can he just be a the supreme being over everyone and everything. Something or someone created evolution.

    December 20, 2011 at 4:00 pm |
    • Yoni

      "Something or someone created evolution." - what created God?

      December 20, 2011 at 4:13 pm |
    • Rick

      Religion: God should be entirely personal. No churches, no texts (except personal diaries). Top down belief is a perversion

      December 20, 2011 at 5:52 pm |
    • Joshua

      The only thing that depresses me more than people that say they don't believe in God because they can't see Him are those people that worship the Pope as though he is God. However, if you think about it, they are the same in that both need something tangible in order to believe in Him.

      December 20, 2011 at 6:03 pm |
    • Sean

      "Something or someone created evolution."

      You don't get how evolution works, do you?

      December 20, 2011 at 7:13 pm |
    • Huh?

      "Something or someone created evolution."

      Then something also created created your god.

      December 20, 2011 at 7:16 pm |
    • Rick

      Joshua: I can see that you are serious about your faith. That is fine. Faith can be a great thing. Can you differentiate between a creator and a God (as in a being that judges "sin")? The way I see it, perhaps the wonder of the universe is the work of a creator, perhaps it is not, i do not know. But the idea of a "God" varies among cultures (and within cultures), so largely what people see as their Supreme Being depends to a large extent on where people are born and into what culture. If you dismiss their god(s), don't feel depressed when they dismiss yours.

      December 21, 2011 at 4:58 am |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke and Eric Marrapodi with daily contributions from CNN's worldwide newsgathering team.