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October 10th, 2011
03:49 PM ET

First openly gay pastor ordained in the PCUSA speaks

By Eric Marrapodi, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

(CNN) - It was nearly three decades in the making, but the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) has ordained its first openly gay pastor. The Rev. Scott Anderson was ordained Saturday at Covenant Presbyterian Church, in Madison, Wisconsin.

"It's an exciting time for me personally to be the first openly gay person ordained in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), and it's a big moment for our church that has has excluded gays and lesbians for so many decades, so it's a new day for us," Anderson told CNN's Suzanne Malveaux.

Anderson had previously been a Presbyterian pastor but left the ministry in 1990 after he was outed by congregants.

At the time, the church required pastors, deacons and elders "to live either in fidelity within the covenant of marriage between a man and a woman, or chastity in singleness," according to its constitution, known as the Book of Order.

Anderson was in a homosexual relationship that violated the church's policy at the time.

"I had been a Presbyterian pastor for eight years, and when I left, I never thought this day would come in my lifetime. God has brought a variety of surprises to my life, and this certainly is the biggest one," Anderson said.

The PCUSA formally changed its ordination policy after a majority of presbyteries, or regional groups of churches, approved the change. The move went into effect in July.

An amendment was passed at the General Assembly, or churchwide governing meeting, last year to remove the marriage language from the church's constitution and insert, "Standards for ordained service reflect the church’s desire to submit joyfully to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in all aspects of life."

A letter from church leaders posted on the church's official website explaining the changes called the matter "a Presbyterian family struggle."

The move led Carmen Fowler LaBerge of the Presbyterian Lay Committee, which opposed changing the ordination standards, to set aside her ordination. She wrote in a commentary posted on the committee's website, "I will joyfully serve as your sister in Christ in the PCUSA without the benefit of institutional ordination credentials and without the burden of a denomination’s corporate guilt. I hereby humbly set aside my ordination as a matter of conscience before the Lord."

"I think what's happening in the Presbyterian church is happening also in the Christian church across our nation right now," Anderson told Malveaux. "Our church is recognizing there are a variety of viewpoints on scripture. There's no longer a right viewpoint and a wrong viewpoint but several faithful viewpoints, one of which includes me in terms of being a minister in the Presbyterian church. So we're honoring a diversity of viewpoints in our church."

Watch CNN Newsroom weekdays 9am to 3pm ET and weekends. For the latest from the CNN Newsroom click here.

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: Belief • Christianity • Church • Content Partner • Homosexuality • TV-CNN Newsroom

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  3. Pastor Bill Nieporte

    If you recieved an odd post from me earlier, I apologize. I was having PC "issues." I am a pastor and my ministerial blog is http://www.nieporte.name – I am a real person, not a machine – and I have been interested in all things theological. Our church is struggling, like most in this pluralistic/post-church era, to make a difference. One area whenre we are seeking to make a connection is on the itnernet via our church site and ministerial blog. We are looking for ways to make a local connection, have global impact, and become sel-sufficient in the process. That is what put me on a search that landed me on your site. have enjoyed reading your posts. My request is for a linkback to my blog; a candid review of my site's strengths and weaknesses, and any pluging/themes/or strategies to enjoy the success you seem to be experiencing. Of course, I will be happy to provide a linkback to your site as well. My best email is billnieporte@pastor.com – I monitor it daily.

    March 8, 2012 at 4:20 pm |
  4. Iluvcats

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    March 1, 2012 at 4:41 am |
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  8. Robert

    Jesus said everyone must repent of (forsake) their sins. The Presbyterian church says that Jesus is a liar and that people don't have to repent of sins, but can keep on willfully sinning and still go to heaven.

    Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

    1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    October 16, 2011 at 4:12 am |
    • Duh

      None of what you posted is against homosexuals as we know it today. What a moron.

      October 17, 2011 at 8:49 am |
  9. George

    There is plenty of gay clergy out there, and the Presbyterians have certainly stepped up in being a "welcoming" church, i.e. being open to LGBT members in their congregations. It is heartening to know that there is not an ordained Presbyterian pastor, one who can help be at the forefront of acceptance in our tenuous society.

    October 15, 2011 at 11:40 pm |
    • Robert

      Jesus welcomes sinners but demands that they turn from their sin. The Old and New Covenant Scriptures both call ga_y se_x sin. Jesus does not say, "Go your way, your sin is ok." He says, "Go and sin no more." Any church that preaches differently is not preaching the Christian message.

      Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
      Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

      October 16, 2011 at 4:16 am |
    • Duh

      "he Old and New Covenant Scriptures both call ga_y se_x sin. "

      No it doesn't, that's the point. It is only read that way by brainwashed morons who don't know anything about homosexuality of today.

      October 17, 2011 at 8:53 am |
    • steveinmo

      @Duh,

      Yes it does matter, that's the point.

      Sodomites today are no different than they were 2,000 years ago, or 5,000 years ago. Nothing has changed, especially God's law. Sin is sin; he welcomes us in to Him if we sacrifice and strive to do away with our sins. But just because public opinion is so misguided and we see the whole cycle of decadence and sin publically displayed as we do today doesn't make it right, nor does it change God's laws of what we're supposed to do.

      October 20, 2011 at 3:19 pm |
    • Duh

      "Sodomites today are no different than they were 2,000 years ago, or 5,000 years ago. "

      LMAO You're pathetic and need to read up on Roman culture and that has nothing to do with the loving partnerships of today. What a moron.

      October 20, 2011 at 3:23 pm |
    • hippypoet

      it does not say anything against g@ys in the bible... all it says is that the city of sodom and its people have committed crimes against god and thats why they are to be punished.... nothing to do with taken one up the demon hole.. infact there are lots of people who believe jesus, whoes real name is joshua was in fact g@y...it could have been a later follower joshua that made such hatiful remarks against what that person dislikes! .

      interesting how a personal dislike of something has turned into a hatred. gotta love religion

      October 20, 2011 at 3:29 pm |
    • jason

      @ duh & hippypoet
      The Bible speaks repeatedly about sodomites in both the old and new testaments, not just in the days of Sodom & Gomorah. Jehosaphat also had to contend with and clear them from his kingdom in order to restore decency and the Lord's favor. Paul & Peter both preached against it, counting it as every other sin and warning to abstain from such.

      As usual, your comments are foolishness hippypoet, just as are your thoughts and cursed life. I'll continue to lean on and wait on my Lord and Savior, and you cannot take my Salvation away, much as you'd like. Not even with your poor misguided comment accusing the Lord of being a sinner.

      October 20, 2011 at 9:54 pm |
    • steveinmo

      Uh yeah what Jason said he beat me to it. I pity and will pray for both of you.

      October 20, 2011 at 10:05 pm |
    • Duh

      "not just in the days of Sodom & Gomorah"

      Hey moron read ezekiel the sin of sodom was hospitality not gays.

      Oh and now after you do that....

      "Paul & Peter both preached against it, counting it as every other sin and warning to abstain from such."

      Pickup a history book and read about Roman culture.

      Literalists are so stupid.

      October 21, 2011 at 6:25 pm |
  10. amber

    maybe we should just kill them all... maybe then crime would stop, bullying would stop, and geberally everyone would live a happy and fullfilling life...

    October 13, 2011 at 3:41 pm |
    • amber

      and by them i mean the hypoctie "christians"...

      October 13, 2011 at 3:42 pm |
    • J.W

      Oh ok I am a Christian but not a hypocrite so I am safe.

      October 13, 2011 at 5:32 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      she will shoot you first.God bless

      October 13, 2011 at 5:35 pm |
    • amber

      who said anything about shooting? my weapon of choice is a cheese grader 🙂

      October 13, 2011 at 7:01 pm |
    • fumunda

      Is that a cheese grader, so you can tell if the cheese you're sportin fumunda is aged or not. I smell that it is rotten. You're an idi_ot. Go away.

      October 18, 2011 at 12:43 pm |
    • amber

      I'm pretty sure YOU dont' even know what you just said.. i was trying to be funny. obviously, it wasn't to you...i'm sorry. but unfortunately i wasn't trying to amuse you. if you don't like what i have to say, don't read it 🙂 thanks!!

      October 19, 2011 at 1:06 pm |
  11. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

    Jesus, please do something about herbert. He's an abomination.

    October 12, 2011 at 9:28 pm |
    • Rick

      Sure. But, he is an amusing abomination

      October 13, 2011 at 3:26 am |
    • amber

      and wants SO badly for everyone to believe a book wriiten by people who were high in sulfer caevs... true story. how else would all this "great man in the clouds" story come about?? but seriously, look it up, they were in sulfer caves which makes you high.

      October 13, 2011 at 4:42 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      I can feel the love.God bless

      October 13, 2011 at 5:37 pm |
    • amber

      why should we not judge you when you judge those you don't understand?? your "holy book" tells you that god is the final judgement and you're doing nothing but judgeing people. you should let god do his own job and not be a back seat driver. let's be honest and rational here.. you really should just people be. whether they are "sinning" or not. just let them take it up with god. you're not being a very good christian.

      October 13, 2011 at 6:56 pm |
    • Rick

      amber: and deny the pious the voy_eur_is_tic thrill of looking in other's bedrooms and muttering tsk-tsk?

      October 14, 2011 at 7:40 am |
    • amber

      Rick: LOL!!!

      October 14, 2011 at 11:14 am |
    • Youwouldntunderstand

      Amber, quit judging Christians of whom you clearly do not understand. It's easy to say that until you tolerate someone, you don't understand them, but I disagree. I understand gay people. I understand that what they are doing is wrong. It doesn't mean I hate them or want them to go underground.
      I think the thing forgotten, here, is that we now have someone in a position of leadership who is clearly in opposition to the Word of God- from which Christians get their standard. It doesn't matter, Amber, if you believe it's make believe or they were high– The point is that this fudge_packer now has a position of authority. That's a problem.

      October 18, 2011 at 12:51 pm |
  12. Over It

    @herbert juarez, For a hom-os-exual person to force themselves to be physically attracted to the opposite s-ex is unnatural for them. You have a perverted, dirty mind if you think that they consciously choose to be that way.

    October 12, 2011 at 2:29 pm |
    • MarkinFL

      And he expects that a gay person should pretend to be someone they are not at the expense of their hetero partner. Great basis for a relationship.

      October 12, 2011 at 2:32 pm |
    • Rick

      Well, Herbie does seem to be an angry petty person. Apparently, he found justification for his bigotry in the writiings of bronze age sheep buggerers. Birds of a feather, I suppose

      October 12, 2011 at 2:35 pm |
    • Elroy

      Homosexuality is a sin" True. Well, at least according to certain verses in the Bible. Three passages to be exact. However, this does not let the Fundamentalist off the hook. In each occasion where we read of God's displeasure with homosexual behavior, we also read of other displeasing behaviors that either God says he doesn't like but Fundamentalists ignore, or that Fundamentalists dislike and yet God seems to think is okay. Confused? You should be.

      The most common reference against homosexuality comes from a story in Genesis. In Chapter 18 of the book, we see God about to destroy the evil twin cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. God sends two angels to warn the one godly family of the imminent demise of these cities, only to have the locals demand that these two angels, who appeared like men, come out so they could have sex with them. Of course this didn't please God very much. However, Lot, the father of this one so-called godly family, does an interesting thing. In chapter 19, verse 8, the Bible tells how Lot offered to give his virgin daughters to these men so that they might rape them instead. Is this how God wants us to protect ourselves from the "homosexual agenda," by offering to let them rape our virgin daughters? Ask that to the Fundamentalist and see how much they squirm.

      Likewise, in the Old Testament Book of Leviticus, we're told it is wrong for a man to be with another man. However, within the same book we are also told that it is wrong to eat pork. If Fundamentalists use the Leviticus verses, simply ask them when was the last time they had bacon. According to the same Old Testament book that condemns the practice of homosexuality, they would also be condemned to hell for eating a BLT sandwich. However, they would not be committing sin if they still owned slaves, since Leviticus tells us such activity is okay. Think the Fundamentalists will agree with that?

      Forced out of the Old Testament in their crusade against homosexuality, the Fundamentalist will quote from Romans, or more specifically from 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, both written by the Apostle Paul. He offers a list of sins that will keep a person out of Heaven. Among them is homosexual behavior. However, also listed among these is adultery. Such a revelation won't phase the Fundamentalists until you remind them that in Luke 16:18 Christ defined a man or woman who has divorced and remarried as also being an adulterer. Ask these Fundamentalists how many of their church's members have been divorced and remarried. Then ask them if their church performs the weddings for these adulterous members. If homosexuality is to be condemned, should not these fellow church goers also be condemned? Challenge these Fundamentalists to go back to their churches and apply the same rules to their adulterous remarried members as they apply to homosexuals. What? They won't do it? Why on earth, then, are they picking on homosexuals? Are they selecting one sin as being worse than another? Of course they are – and you've just called them to the carpet for it. Why are they allowed to commit some sins yet feel free to condemn someone else's?

      October 12, 2011 at 3:31 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @over it:At issue is the sin mentioned in the story, not asking perverts to marry, or force anything on anyone.Simple notation the practice is unnatural and a sin, so are all the other sins that keep being brought up.Sin separates from God,why deny that what is being done is wrong?No amount of debate will make sin right before God.Recognize sin for what it is and deal with it accordingly.God bless

      October 12, 2011 at 4:47 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @elroy
      You really don't know what you are talking about.This story doesn't deal with adultery or eating pork.Do you recognize the difference between local ,state and federal law?Do you even know what the "law"in the Bible was given for?All sin separates from God,the law defines sin, it gives an overview of the sin nature of mankind.The only reason this particular perversion is being discussed is because that is what the article is about.All sin needs to be dealt with before a Holy God, but we cannot pick and chose what sin is ,it is already written.sin was sin then it is sin now and will be sin in the future.The real question is what are you going to do about it?God bless

      October 12, 2011 at 4:57 pm |
    • What IF

      IF there is a "God", herbert juarez, I am SO glad that it is not YOU.

      October 12, 2011 at 5:02 pm |
    • Elroy

      "All sin needs to be dealt with before a Holy God, but we cannot pick and chose what sin is ,it is already written.sin was sin then it is sin now and will be sin in the future.The real question is what are you going to do about it?"

      LOL! It's not a sin, only in the mind of warped fundamentalist is it a sin. I have voted for gay rights, will continue to vote for gay rights because that is the way I would want to be treated and loved. Hmmm I wonder where I've heard that before. LMAO!

      October 12, 2011 at 6:35 pm |
    • Ok'yDok'y

      "IF there is a "God", herbert juarez, I am SO glad that it is not YOU."

      Herbert makes a great devil instead and just in time for Halloween!

      October 12, 2011 at 6:37 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      There is a God, I am not Him,but i know Him.Perversion is still sin,perversion is not love,and all your rants will not change perversion to good no matter how you approach it. God bless

      October 13, 2011 at 5:40 pm |
    • J.W

      Herbert what if that found an original writing in the Bible that said marriage should be between two men or two women. Would you be able to be with a man? Or would you live your life as an abomination?

      October 13, 2011 at 5:45 pm |
    • Ok'yDok'y

      "Perversion is still sin,perversion is not love"

      The experts in psychology disagree with you.

      October 13, 2011 at 7:18 pm |
    • Rick

      Herbie: And your claiming to know what "god" thinks is a verbal manifestation of your mental diarrhea, no matter how YOU approach it

      October 14, 2011 at 5:26 am |
  13. Kinsey

    9 Reasons Why We Got It SO Wrong

    1. The average Christian is uneducated about sexual orientation. The average Christian is uninformed about the mounting research that demonstrates sexual orientation is pre-wired and complex, involving a combination of pre-natal hormonal and genetic factors. Once pre-wired in the womb, same-sex orientation begins to play out in people’s physical appearance, natural abilities, brain functioning, socialization and emotional attachment. To them it is innate and natural as is a person’s heterosexual orientation.

    2. The church has seen science as a threat to faith. For centuries science and religion have been enemies. The Catholic Church declared that Galileo was a heretic in 1616. For centuries it refused to acknowledge that Galileo was not a heretic and that the world did in fact revolve around the sun. It wasn’t till 1989, that Pope John Paul II apologized for the Church’s handling of the case. The debate over evolution vs creationism continues to rage in some Christian circles as they feel that to accept evolution means rejection of their God who created the world and universe according to the Genesis record.

    3. Christians who are anti-gay are locked in a time warp of a culture that existed in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s. There was a time when the majority of western culture viewed homosexuality as an illness and perversion. Mental health professionals changed their view in the early 70’s. After that, the legislation in most countries progressively caught up with the new understanding. The only places where homosexuality is still a criminal offence are parts of Africa and the Middle East; still punishable by death in only a few.

    4. The church is always behind the times and slow to change. This has and in most cases will continue to be the way it is as the Christian church, by nature, is conservative.

    5. The Christian sub-culture is closed and not exposed to outside stimulus. Once again the church, by nature, has been a closed institution which breeds a particular culture. Like all cultures it maintains certain beliefs, attitudes and behaviors. To maintain identity, those beliefs, attitudes and behaviors must not be threatened. This has often created a siege mentality and separation from the very people they are called to reach. Push a culture too far and it becomes cultish. Hence the development of Christian cults.

    6. The average Christian is uneducated about the historical and cultural contexts as well as the original languages of the verses often quoted. Looking deeper at the six passages used to promote the belief that homosexuality is a sin, reveals a new understanding. The Sodom and Gomorrah story was never about homosexuality, Leviticus was not written about loving same-sex relationships, Romans 1 is talking about pagan idolatrous rituals and the word homosexual was not used in I Corinthians 6:9 till 1946. It’s easy to see how these verses, read in English without the education, could be misinterpreted. I did it for years.

    7. Christians have often judged the entire GLBT community by the actions of a portion. The only encounter many churches have with the GLBT community is through activists seeking equality at all levels of society. Rightly or wrongly, this has created the impression that we are all angry, militant and aggressive.

    There is also a strong sexual ethos that exists in some subcultures of the GLBT community. Not knowing any gay or lesbian people personally, many in the church have assumed that all gay and lesbian people have no sense of morality. This simply is not true. Amongst heterosexuals there is also a broad range of morality. Homosexuality does not automatically mean promiscuity or immorality. No matter what our view is of others morality, we should always remind ourselves that Jesus told us not to judge.

    8. Church leaders don’t know any happy gay or lesbian people. The only same-sex- oriented people most pastors/leaders actually have any contact with are those who are tormented by their homosexuality, have a sexual addiction or have been sexually abused. This gives a very warped impression of those of us who are same-sex-attracted. This is not unlike the situation that occurred with psychiatrists and psychologists up until the work of Evelyn Hooker in 1957.

    9. Gay Christians are coming out nearly 4 decades after the birth of the gay rights movement. What we are experiencing in the church now is not unlike what happened after 1969 Stonewall riots. Four decades ago a group of gay and lesbian people said enough is enough and we will no longer allow you to treat us like this. A similar thing happened 14 years earlier when on December 1st 1955 Rosa Parks (a black women), tired and worn out from hours working in the factory was riding home on the bus. When ordered to vacate her seat for a white person………she said NO and was arrested. This was the birth of the civil rights movement. In 1968, one year before Stonewall, the Rev Troy Perry held the first service for gay Christians with 12 people. Although it was a small beginning and progress slow there are now tens of thousands who call themselves gay Christians and 1,000’s of welcoming churches.

    October 12, 2011 at 1:24 pm |
    • Colin

      well said

      October 12, 2011 at 3:09 pm |
  14. herbert juarez

    @jw :Unnatural acts between people of the same gender is perversion.I object to the term " gay " being used for sin.God bless

    October 12, 2011 at 12:09 pm |
    • J.W

      So as long as being gay is natural to them it would not be a sin.

      October 12, 2011 at 12:13 pm |
    • HellBent

      Objection noted. Ignored.

      October 12, 2011 at 12:16 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @ jw:It is always a sin,unnatural cannot be natural.Don't hide behind terms ,accept the sin for what it is.God bless

      October 12, 2011 at 12:17 pm |
    • Rick

      How pompous of you, Herbie, telling others what "sin" is.

      October 12, 2011 at 12:25 pm |
    • John

      "Unnatural acts between people of the same gender is perversion"

      LMAO – Your bigotry and prejudice is noted but not founded in reality of the facts of today.

      October 12, 2011 at 12:30 pm |
    • Rick

      "Unnatural acts between people of the same gender is perversion"

      How about unnatural acts between people of opposite genders? Is that sin, too? Please tell us, oh Prophet

      Don't hide behind God. Accept the sin of bigotry for what it is.

      October 12, 2011 at 12:34 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @rick:At issue here is one particular sin,there are lots of sins,lying ,cheating stealing and some acts between men and women.We are not discussing all the sins that a person can commit,only the perversion that the story is about.If you want to discuss every sin that there is why don't you make an exhaustive list.God bless

      October 12, 2011 at 12:41 pm |
    • Rick

      As it is not a choice, I don't see how it can be a "sin'. Society is much more tolerant of gays, and getting more tolerant by the moment. Those who want to relish in the bigotry of the past will see this as society falling apart. I see it as society becoming stronger. No longer beholding to ancient myths

      October 12, 2011 at 12:47 pm |
    • Ok'yDok'y

      "only the perversion that the story is about"

      I for one am glad that groups like the APA and the World Health Organizations don't agree with your limited view point. It's sad to realize there are still depraved people like you in the world.

      October 12, 2011 at 12:49 pm |
    • Rick

      Yeah, herbert, why don't we discuss bigotry?

      October 12, 2011 at 12:49 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @rick
      All sin is a choice.You cannot argue sin away, you cannot change sin by reason or debate.You accept perversion as normal?that is to your misfortune.Neither you or I set the standard of what sin is and neither can we change it.Even if 99% of the world accepts a sin , it still remain a sin.All creation is accountable to God and He alone has set the standard and also given us the solution in the Lord Jesus Christ.God bless

      October 12, 2011 at 1:00 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @rick
      Bigotry?Why don't we discuss bearing false witness ?If i saw a bank robbery in progress and identified the perpetrator as a thief,Would you call me a bigot for so doing?God bless

      October 12, 2011 at 1:09 pm |
    • Rick

      "All creation is accountable to God and He alone has set the standard and also given us the solution in the Lord Jesus Christ."

      Nice opinion, but an opinion nevertheless.

      Mine is that bronze age man set the standard and there is no accountability to any sort of "God". Do you really expect that "morality" accepted by bronze age man should be the same as that accepted today? Do you see the world as your grandparents did? That is a differences, of, what, 50 years? Imagine how backward we are going to seem to people 2,000 years in the future (if we don't blow ourselves up)? Do you expect that will look to the 21st century for morality? If not, why do you look back 2,000 years to determine yours?

      October 12, 2011 at 1:13 pm |
    • Rick

      If all creation is accountable to God, does that include animals and plants? Should a tree worry about confessing it's sins? How about the neighborhood alley cat?

      October 12, 2011 at 1:16 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @rick
      Define "bronze age".What was perverted and sin from the dawn of creation remains perversion and sin today and should this world continue another 2000 years it will still be perversion and sin.Sin does not somehow become noble,that is why it is sin.Whether you lived then ,now or in the future certain absolutes remain.God bless

      October 12, 2011 at 1:18 pm |
    • HellBent

      "Whether you lived then ,now or in the future certain absolutes remain"

      So you don't wear cotton blends, right?

      And let's not forget that god does change his mind on what is and isn't an sin. See: shellfish

      October 12, 2011 at 1:20 pm |
    • fred

      J.W

      Sin is an offense to a Holy God. It is important to keep that separate from secular human offenses. On a secular note the Greeks did some nasty stuff to young boys and their culture applauded the old men of perversion. It was called pederasty and parents would offer their children up to receive approval for themselves from society. Had you been a boy in those days you also would have felt honored with what we today consider abuse. Secular society is driven by different master running after their collective desires.

      Times and culture change but God does not. Sin is an offense to a Holy God. Truth is not relative and what is truth never changes. The idea being put in front of us is that there is a new kind of ho-mo$exual behavior that brings glory to a Holy God. The church should marry ho-mo$exuals and God is pleased because they no longer live in sin. This is like the Catholic Church that began to annual marriages to avoid the sin of divorce. Desire, lust and $ex are main topics in the Bible and man has not changed in 4,000 years. God set up guide lines in this area because this is where we easily fall away. Forget the ho-mo$exual verses straight argument that is a political distraction and hot button. Jesus did not differentiate because that is not the threat to your soul. The threat to your soul is the desires of your heart not your $exual orientation. Seek ye first the Kingdom of God was His advice.
      Jesus did not discriminate based on orientation and we should not either. Jesus did make it clear that man cannot have two masters for you will cling to one and hate the other. This is why we see such bias on this site where we cling to that which our life revolves around. Many Christian ears are closed as are many Atheists. Some are even like the Sanhedrin that ran yelling with their ears covered at Stephen when he preached the Gospel.

      October 12, 2011 at 1:22 pm |
    • Rick

      You are not just pointing out that this person is gay. You are purporting to tell us how "God" disapproves. That is bigotry. But, I suppose that angry, petty people find comfort in an angry, petty god.

      October 12, 2011 at 1:23 pm |
    • HellBent

      "Times and culture change but God does not"

      Except when he does. your god did rescind previous issued commandments.

      October 12, 2011 at 1:23 pm |
    • Rick

      Moral absolutes may exist, but it doesn't mean that they are accurately reflected in man's writing.

      October 12, 2011 at 1:26 pm |
    • Ok'yDok'y

      "Jesus did not differentiate because that is not the threat to your soul. The threat to your soul is the desires of your heart not your $exual orientation. Seek ye first the Kingdom of God was His advice."

      Christian married gay couples do not sin.

      October 12, 2011 at 1:28 pm |
    • fred

      Hellbent
      Jesus did not get rid of the old law He fulfilled it. Jesus was the sacrifice all the old ritual pointed to preparing the people and being fulfilled in Christ that was no longer necessary. Jesus actually stepped things up a notch. Murder now includes hate not just physical killing.

      October 12, 2011 at 1:34 pm |
    • Hear This

      @herbert juarez,

      I sure hope that you or your loved ones never need medical intervention to save or improve the quality of your life.... medications to treat, cure or slow the progress of diseases are unnatural; hip transplants are unnatural; organ transplants are unnatural; steel rods and bone screws for fractures are unnatural - I could fill the page with unnatural behaviors that we participate in for the betterment of human life. Cripes, indoor plumbing and air travel are unnatural too.

      But in the first place, ho.mose.xuality is widely found in nature anyway.

      No matter how you look at it, you have no leg to stand on sir, except your creepy fears (and those of primitive Middle Eastern tribesmen).

      Perhaps you have no interest or have an intense aversion to same-s.ex relations - fine - for YOU. Do you realize that hom.ose.xuals have that SAME non-interest and yes, even sick-to-the-stomach reaction to physical relations with the opposite s.ex?

      I remember a scene in "The Birdcage" where the gay man talked about his trying to be straight and sleeping with a woman - he said he ran and threw up afterward!

      October 12, 2011 at 1:34 pm |
    • HellBent

      @fred – God had previously banned shellfish. Then, when peter got hungry one day, god said that he decided to change his mind and not let peter starve.

      October 12, 2011 at 1:39 pm |
    • Hear This

      p.s. To be totally honest, I will share this other fact. I am not gay. I have no interest in my own gender regarding se.xual relations, and am even uncomfortable envisioning others doing it, BUT I don't spend a minute of my time envisioning my hetero friends "in the act" either.

      October 12, 2011 at 1:42 pm |
    • fred

      Ok'yDok'y

      I do not know the heart of the married couples you are referring to. What we do know is based on the divorce rate people put themselves first and their spouse second (or lower). Marriage was about unity, Christ often used analogies of marriage feasts and banquets pointing to the great Joy when we are united with Christ (often referred to as bridegroom). The theme of the Bible is God was really hurt when rejected in the garden and because of His love unity remains the eternal position. Marriage is unity to God. Note in the Bible Jesus says in Heaven there will be no marriage. Perfect unity in Christ exceeds whatever man can accomplish by traditions on earth.

      October 12, 2011 at 1:47 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @hear this
      Dealing only with the sin of the perversion described in the story.Cnn will not allow certain words,Unnatural as written deals with a man man relationship,or woman woman relationship, neither of which I am specifically interested in, other than to say such behavior is a sin.Not dealing with medical,science, etc.,etc.The issue is and remains a sin issue.Had you read before you lept to conclusions you might have caught that.God bless

      October 12, 2011 at 2:00 pm |
    • Brian

      "nnatural as written deals with a man man relationship,or woman woman relationship, neither of which I am specifically interested in, other than to say such behavior is a sin"

      It's a sin only in your mind, not God's.

      October 12, 2011 at 2:12 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      Read the Bible brian,It is God who sets the standard for sin,perversion is sin and even if you and everyone you know say it isn't it doesn't change the basic fact that it is a sin.All sin can be dealt with at the cross through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.A person is not without hope and remedy, unless they chose to be.God bless

      October 12, 2011 at 2:21 pm |
    • HellBent

      That's right, brian, the only way for your evil sin of wearing cotton blends is for your deity to suffer and bleed for you.

      October 12, 2011 at 2:22 pm |
    • Brian

      "doesn't change the basic fact that it is a sin."

      Stop taking the scriptures so literally, it is not a sin in Christ's love.

      October 12, 2011 at 2:23 pm |
    • Rick

      Herbie: Man set the standard, and attributed it to God. You are doing much the same.

      October 12, 2011 at 2:39 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      rick
      You are 180 degrees opposite of what is and that in itself explains your twisted view of the issue. I fear you will carry wrong all the way to final judgement. My sympathy to you, God bless

      October 12, 2011 at 2:50 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      brian
      There is no perversion sin that Christ loves.All sin is a separation between God and man.Sin divides us, sin is never acceptable in Gods sight.The perversion in this story cannot be in Christs love.God bless

      October 12, 2011 at 2:54 pm |
    • Rick

      even if you and everyone you know say it is it doesn't change the basic fact that it isn't

      October 12, 2011 at 2:55 pm |
    • Rick

      "rick
      You are 180 degrees opposite of what is and that in itself explains your twisted view of the issue. I fear you will carry wrong all the way to final judgement. My sympathy to you, God bless"

      herbie: You are 180 degrees opposite of what is. That in itself explains your twisted view of the issue. I fear you will carry wrong for the rest of your life. My sympathy to anyone who has to deal with you in real life. Get off your knees and grow a pair

      October 12, 2011 at 2:59 pm |
    • Colin

      Just so you understand, Herbert is quike liekly mentally retarded. Here is a recent post of his

      "The Passover, appears to represent an image of Gods judgement,reserved for the end of time.The sad truth is that those not covered by the blood of Christ will be subject to judgement.The blood on the doorposts of the "lamb" of God,signified the power of God to deliver His people from the imminent judgement.It was actually Pharoah and the Egyptians who set the standard for judgement.Each of the plagues represented a false god sacred to the Egyptians , and Pharoah himself called for the destruction of the Hebrew children.God is not willing that any should perish and has provide opportunity for all to come under His protection,by accepting the atoning gift of Jesus,Immanuel the living Son of God.
      Next you reference the flood,several possibilities exist as to the why.One suggestion is that angelic beings kept not their first estate.Angels ,the sons of God looked on the daughters of men and cohabited with them creating a race of mutants or giants that would have destroyed the human race as we know it.These creatures were evil incarnate, and left to continue, none of us would exist.Another possibility is that God seeing and knowing all things was grieved at the direction mankind had chosen to go,and that as things stood there would be no future at all unless corrective measures were taken.I favor the Enoch explanation,even though the young were destroyed as well, they were already mutant.If it wasn't for the flood you and I would probably have never existed.
      Finally, judgement isn't murder.We may not like it but there is a death penalty involved.The wages of sin is death.We as a society execute people for specific crimes against humanity.God does no less"

      As you can see, Herbert exhibits, (i) irrational wandering in his thoughts; (ii) a belief (as an adult) in mutant gaints, angels having $ex with woman and other supernatural garbage; and (ii) a ready disposition to call anybody who does not share his delusions "sinners" or liars" or part of a grand conspiracy against him an'/or his sky fairy.

      October 12, 2011 at 3:04 pm |
    • Rick

      Colin: You seem to be ignoring the possibility that the thought of being with Jesus is giving Herbie wood

      October 12, 2011 at 3:07 pm |
    • J.W

      Fred that is an interesting view on gay marriage. I have never thought of it that way. I definitely do think hom.o-se.xuality today is different than it would have been in biblical times, since gay marriage was probably not even introduced back then. I do not see why in today's society gay and straight relationships cannot be the same thing.

      October 12, 2011 at 3:18 pm |
    • fred

      J.W
      In many respects the relationships may well be very similar. Sin is not about your relationship with the guy or gal next to you it is about your relationship with God. Get that part right first and do not pass go until you do. If you believe in Jesus then go and ask Him with a sincere heart. I bet He will point you towards a much bigger sin in your life.
      A word of warning there is a reason why the Bible gave guidelines on $exual desire. There is a reason Jesus went to rescue and forgive the women caught in adultery. He did not condemn her but made it clear now go and sin no more.

      October 12, 2011 at 3:44 pm |
    • Ok'yDok'y

      "A word of warning there is a reason why the Bible gave guidelines on $exual desire. There is a reason Jesus went to rescue and forgive the women caught in adultery. He did not condemn her but made it clear now go and sin no more."

      Do you tell that to all the divorced people in your church, in your neighborhood or are you silent.

      October 12, 2011 at 3:58 pm |
    • fred

      Ok'yDok'y
      Observer got this going again but, that is not the situation with divorce. If the innocent party to the divorce still seeks reconciliation then Observers position is correct in that you must reconcile or continue in adultery. Once the innocent party moves on and is married then both are off the hook. Bunch of mumbo jumbo but Jesus set the bar high for those seeking a divorce and consequence to divorce major and long lasting due to the pain / rejection involved. Scripture must always tie with the overriding principles of God. In the case of divorce the guilty party is a no brainer as he or she remains guilty as long as there is injustice being done as a result of the divorce. The innocent party must be made whole, you cannot just walk away.

      October 12, 2011 at 4:50 pm |
    • J.W

      Yes fred gay relationships today are just loving relationships between two people. I think that God would definitely understand that. I think adultery is more harmful than ho.mose.xuality ever was. Seems like you do not hear enough about the things like that really tear families apart.

      October 12, 2011 at 4:53 pm |
    • fred

      J.W
      There are also reasons $exual relationships should wait for a long term commitment or marriage. Most important marriage should include God in the center of the marriage. If God is not in the center and so acknowledged by both parties there are problems. Most marriages may have a priest or the like giving the vows but, few have Christ at their center

      October 12, 2011 at 5:05 pm |
  15. Rainer Braendlein

    Reality

    • The moderators of this blog have set up a secret forbidden word filter which unfortunately not only will delete or put your comment in the dreaded “waiting for moderation” category but also will do the same to words having fragments of these words. For example, “t-it” is in the set but the filter will also pick up words like Hitt-ite, t-itle, beati-tude, practi-tioner and const-tution. Then there are words like “an-al” thereby flagging words like an-alysis and “c-um” flagging acc-umulate or doc-ument. And there is also “r-a-pe”, “a-pe” and “gra-pe”, “s-ex”, and “hom-ose-xual”. You would think that the moderators would have corrected this by now considering the number of times this has been commented on but they have not. To be safe, I typically add hyphens in any word that said filter might judge “of-fensive”.

    • Make sure the web address does not have any forbidden word or fragment.

    Sum Dude routinely updates the list of forbidden words/fragments.

    Two of the most filtered words are those containing the fragments “t-it” and “c-um”. To quickly check your comments for these fragments, click on “Edit” on the Tool Bar and then “Find” on the menu. Add a fragment (without hyphens) one at a time in the “Find” slot and the offending fragment will be highlighted in your comments before you hit the Post button. Hyphenate the fragment(s) and then hit Post. And remember more than one full web address will also gain a “Waiting for Moderation”.

    And said moderators still have not solved the chronological placement of comments once the number of comments gets above about 100. They recently have taken to dividing the comments in batches of 50 or so, for some strange reason. Maybe they did this to solve the chronology problem only to make comment reviews beyond the tedious.
    Zeb’s alphabetical listing

    o “bad letter combinations / words to avoid if you want to get past the CNN “awaiting moderation” filter:
    Many, if not most, are buried within other words, so use your imagination.
    You can use dashes, spaces, or other characters to modify the “offending” letter combinations.
    ––
    ar-se…..as in Car-se, etc.
    ba-stard
    co-ck…..as in co-ckatiel, co-ckatrice, co-ckleshell, co-ckles, lubco-ck, etc.
    co-on…..as in rac-oon, coc-oon, etc.
    cu-m……as in doc-ument, accu-mulate, circu-mnavigate, circu-mstances, cu-mbersome, cuc-umber, etc.
    cu-nt…..as in Scu-ntthorpe, a city in the UK famous for having problems with filters…!
    do-uche
    ef-fing…as in ef-fing filter
    ft-w……as in soft-ware, delft-ware, swift-water, etc.
    fu-ck……!
    ho-mo…..as in ho-mo sapiens or ho-mose-xual, ho-mogenous, etc.
    ho-rny….as in tho-rny, etc.
    jacka-ss…yet “ass” is allowed by itself…..
    ja-p……as in j-apanese, ja-pan, j-ape, etc.
    ji-sm
    koo-ch….as in koo-chie koo..!
    nip-ple
    pi-s……as in pi-stol, lapi-s, pi-ssed, therapi-st, etc.
    pr-ick….as in pri-ckling, pri-ckles, etc.
    ra-pe…..as in scra-pe, tra-peze, gr-ape, thera-peutic, sara-pe, etc.
    se-x……as in Ess-ex, s-exual, etc.
    sh-@t…..but shat is okay – don’t use the @ symbol there.
    sh-it
    sl-ut
    sn-atch
    sp-ic…..as in disp-icable, hosp-ice, consp-icuous, susp-icious, sp-icule, sp-ice, etc.
    ti-t……as in const-itution, att-itude, ent-ities, alt-itude, beat-itude, etc.
    tw-at…..as in wristw-atch, nightw-atchman, etc.
    va-g……as in extrava-gant, va-gina, va-grant, va-gue, sava-ge, etc.
    who-re….as in who’re you kidding / don’t forget to put in that apostrophe!
    wt-f….also!!!!!!!

    There are more, some of them considered “racist”, so do not assume that this list is complete.
    -–
    Allowed words / not blocked at all:
    anal
    anus
    ass
    boob
    crap
    damn
    execute
    hell
    kill
    masturbation
    murder
    penis
    pubic
    raping (ra-pe is not ok)
    shat (sh-@t is not ok)
    sphincter
    testes
    testicles

    The CNN / WordPress filter also filters your EMAIL address and NAME as well – so you might want to check those

    October 12, 2011 at 8:20 am |
  16. Rainer Braendlein

    Headline: Gay Pastors???

    Primary note:

    Everybody reading this following comment should be aware that Jesus Christ was baptised by John the Baptist. What does that mean? Answer: Of course Jesus was no sinner, who had needed John’s baptism, but he was holy. Nevertheless he wanted to get baptised by John. By getting baptised, Jesus expressed: I want to join the community of the sinners, and I am not ashamed of the sinners. Jesus accepted to be labeled as sinner. The very meaning of John’s baptism was it to give people the following label: “this man is a sinner needing forgiveness!” Why gots Jesus himself baptized, when he was no sinner??? Jesus didn’t want to be a proud Pharisee with an egoistic Holyness (I am the only holy man on earth), but wanted to equate with the sinners, that means he was ready to get the status: “sinner”. Jesus was the very opposite of a Pharisee, because he considered himself as sinner and not as a righteous one. Jesus got himself baptized, that shows, how much he loves us. By getting baptized, Jesus joins us.

    Like some American churches, the EKD (German Evangelical Church) is so down and out that she allows ho-mose-xuals to be official pastors of the EKD. The EKD ordains gays pastors. That is a calamity. That is apocalyptic!

    Even some little years ago in Germany practiced ho-mose-xuality was punishable: paragraph 175. Nearly for 2000 years there were no offical ho-mose-xual pastors in the Holy Christian Church, and suddenly now it shall be lawful??? This is impossible.

    Even when state and society become more and more tolerant concerning ho-mose-xuality, in the eyes of God it is a heavy crime.

    For the Christian Church it never can be crucial, which opinion state or society have got about a certain subject, but solely the opinion of the Triune God, which we can find in the Holy Bible.

    First, it must be stated that this comment is not about ordinary human beings, having a vice, but about pastors. What is the task of the pastor? The task of the pastor is it to take care of the salvation of the church members soul. The pastor should preach: “Jesus Christ wants and is able to free you from slavery of every sin” (Matthew 1, 21), hear the gospel: “For God so loved the world, that he gave is only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3, 16).

    Please note, God doesn’t want solely to forgive, but to save from sins and give everlasting life. Romans 6, 1-3: Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live anylonger therein?

    As a result of which, we are dead to sin? We are sacramentally baptized in the name of Jesus Christ!

    The true gospel is a gospel of freeing and releasing from sins.

    Assumed, it would actually happen that a gay pastor would pronounce: “Jesus can set you free!”, then at the same time his body would preach: “The gospel is the biggest nonsense of all ages, it has no releasing power!” or “Grace is for free, consequently continue in sin”.

    Because it is out of question (impossible) that someone says yes (gospel sets free) and no (gospel doesn’t set free) at the same time, a ho-mose-xual is never allowed to become pastor, because by his way of life he perverts the gospel. He preaches, so to speak: “God forgives you, even when you continue in sin”, but he should preach with words and body: “Jesus sets you free!”

    It is written repeatedly in the Epistles of St. Paul that an examplary life is absolute basic condition for reaching out for an ecclesiastical office (1.Tim. 3, 1-13). Sinners in the Church are suggested to repent, but they are not called to ecclesiastical offices (Romans 6, 19-23).

    Proof that God particularly hates se-xual sins:

    Very long ago in Palestine lived peoples which experienced such a downfall that even their names have been forgotten and today nobody knows that they have ever existed.

    It were seven peoples: the Hett-ites, the Girgashi-tes, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites (Deuteronomy 7). This peoples lived excessively in most heavy se-xual sins: se-xual intercourse between father and daughter, mother and son, man or woman with animal, men with men, woman with woman etc.. One day God had enough of it, and he mandated his people Isreal to exterminate this peoples. Deuteronomy 20, 16-20: But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: but thou shalt utterly destroy them …

    Leviticus 18, 1-30: God warned his people Israel of living in the sins of the peoples, which he was about to drive out. The peoples had made unclean (defiled) the land, and the land spit them out. Isreal would have the same fate like the peoples, when they would live in the sins of the peoples (Leviticus 20, 22-23).

    By the way, the Chruch is the heavenly Isreal. When God required his earthly people (Israel) not to make unclean themselves, how much more he will require his heavenly people (the Christian Church) not to make unclean themselves.

    Some verses of the Hl. Scripture, where intercourse between man and man is condemned: Leviticus 18, 22 und Leviticus 20, 13: Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

    Romans 1, 26-27: … men with men working that which is unseemly … .

    The statements of the Hl. Scripture are absolutely clear. The Holy Scripture doesn’t solely condemn same-se-x love of pastors, but of everybody.

    About everybody, trying to bend the Hl. Scripture to make it possible for example to justify the blessing of same-se-x couples, Dr. Martin Luther had said: “He is possessed by many devils!”

    At last: Everybody practising same-se-x love, should stop it right now, because it is an offence against God. When he cannot get rid of his longing, despite of his efforts, then he should ask Jesus Christ for help. It is the very office of Jesus Christ to deliver (set free) sinners from their sins. Jesus will set him free.

    By the way, everybody having received sacramental infant baptism, can refer back to his infant baptism and believe that by this infant baptism he has got deliverance and New Life in Christ. Re-baptism is strictly prohibited, because it seperates from the one Holy Christian Church. Infant baptism is valid!

    When someone (who repents his sins) has the possibility, he should confess his sins to a Christian brother, and the brother should forgive and release in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ gave authority to the Church to forgive sins in his name: “Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them, and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained” (John 20, 23).

    Jesus loves us!!!

    Read the book "The Cost of Discipleship" by Dr. Dietrich Bonhoeffer (he was the leading theologian of the last century!)

    October 12, 2011 at 8:15 am |
    • RAZOR

      @Rainer Braendlein

      I agree with your thinking. I believe Pastors must teach the WORD and be a good example to the flock.

      October 12, 2011 at 9:38 am |
    • Scott - 1

      “Even when state and society become more and more tolerant concerning ho-mose-xuality, in the eyes of God it is a heavy crime.” According to your bible so is eating lobster. Both are called abominations

      October 12, 2011 at 11:13 am |
    • Scott - 1

      You need psychiatric attention. Your having depraved $exual fantasies about the bible. I looked at Deuteronomy 7 and there was no mention about the private practices of any one.

      October 12, 2011 at 11:21 am |
    • Rick

      "Even when state and society become more and more tolerant concerning ho-mose-xuality, in the eyes of God it is a heavy crime."

      Pretty presumptuous speaking for God, Rainer.

      October 12, 2011 at 11:35 am |
    • John

      There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.

      Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behavior, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.

      In 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual peverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual peverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.

      Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?

      Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).

      That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex.

      October 12, 2011 at 11:41 am |
    • RAZOR

      @John

      The Scriptures are useful in gaining understanding and wisdom. Wisdom tells me that this Pastor and others like him are a stumbling block.

      October 12, 2011 at 12:39 pm |
    • Ok'yDok'y

      "Wisdom tells me that this Pastor and others like him are a stumbling block."

      No, it is a great example of how the literalistic approach to the bible benefits personal prejudices and that needs to be addressed since christianity is the greatest catalyst of hatred toward gays and lesbians.

      October 12, 2011 at 12:45 pm |
  17. martinipaul

    Sin is not determined by human opinion. There is no such thing as a sinless human act. If all acts are sinful then the conclusion is obvious.

    October 11, 2011 at 8:28 pm |
    • Rick

      "Sin is not determined by human opinion."

      Are you kidding? Sin was created by human opinion

      "There is no such thing as a sinless human act. If all acts are sinful then the conclusion is obvious."

      That the being determining what is sinful is petty and interested more in punishment than forgiveness?

      October 11, 2011 at 9:14 pm |
    • Scott - other

      WOW!!! Your are the most messed up Christian I have ever heard of

      October 11, 2011 at 9:32 pm |
  18. joe

    The problem for me is that gays rarely confess that sin before God. Do I sin? Yes. Do I sin more than this gay minister – probably. Do I confess my sin before God and battle my nature/desires – yes. To me, it's not the sin that's unforgivable... it's that they don't acknowledge it as sin and thus never seek forgiveness.

    October 11, 2011 at 5:19 pm |
    • Rick

      The problem I have with your statement, Joe, is your implication that being gay is a sin. Do you believe orientation is a choice? If so, at what age did you make yours? If not, how can something that is not a choice be a sin?

      What are these natural desires you battle?

      October 11, 2011 at 5:25 pm |
    • steveinmo

      Exactly Joe. As Christ himself taught, and the apostles later reaffirmed, there is only one unforgivable sin, that of not seeking the Lord and repenting of our sins.

      And yes Rick, it is sin, and it IS a choice. To say it isn't you are saying the Bible is wrong, and by doing that you're proclaiming God to be a liar, and trying to put yourself above God.

      October 11, 2011 at 6:00 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      So you battle the desire you have for your spouse?

      October 11, 2011 at 8:03 pm |
    • Rick

      steve: at what age did you make your choice?

      October 11, 2011 at 8:10 pm |
    • Rick

      Please answer my question, Steve.

      October 11, 2011 at 8:21 pm |
    • Rick

      Also, Steve: "To say that the bible is wrong means that God is a liar". It doesn't mean that at all. If you want to frame it that way to diminish my point, go right ahead. Now, go get your shinebox, boy

      October 11, 2011 at 8:29 pm |
    • steveinmo

      Patience Rick, I have another life outside of the internet, along with family commitments. So you don't need 3 replies trying to push me into answering or trying to use those repeated retorts as an excuse to attempt making me look bad. As for when did I choose? The appropriate way to ask that question is when did I not choose, and the answer to that was the day I was Saved. Think what you want, but this might be your last chance. As for a shinebox? Phht...get real sodomite.

      As for Observer, learn to read the Bible with your heart and feel your way through it with your instincts and not your head or thinking it through. You clearly have no idea what it says or means. And as for unicorns? What have you been smoking tonight?

      October 11, 2011 at 9:12 pm |
    • Rick

      Sorry to disturb your little fantasies, Stevie, but I am a straight male in a long term relationship with a woman I love. What you are saying is that until you were "saved", you didn't know to which gender you were attracted?

      October 11, 2011 at 9:19 pm |
    • Rick

      You didn't know what orientation you weren't until you were saved. Sounds like a mighty small closet you got there, Stevie

      October 11, 2011 at 9:23 pm |
    • steveinmo

      Sorry Rick, my apology if I read your statements wrong about your orientation. Or has everything you've been writing here simply to bait, which is as I suspect. As for my other posts, you clearly have no clue what I mean, and apparently wish to go through life the fool, so I will not spend more time here on you.

      October 11, 2011 at 9:30 pm |
    • Scott - other

      @Rick: I had no choice about Eve and the apple; but, according to good Christians everywhere it’s my sin and I’m damned for it. Just another one of the very good reasons to leave the church

      October 11, 2011 at 9:36 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Joe, maybe you should be asked to be forgiven for your ignorance.

      October 12, 2011 at 12:20 am |
    • Reality

      The Apostles' Creed 2011: (updated by yours truly based on the studies of NT historians and theologians of the past 200 years)

      Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
      and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
      human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven?????

      I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
      preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
      named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
      girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

      Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
      the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

      He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
      a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
      Jerusalem.

      Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
      many semi-fiction writers. A bodily resurrection and
      ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
      Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
      grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
      and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
      called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

      Amen

      October 12, 2011 at 12:21 am |
    • Rick

      steve: you are a coward.

      October 12, 2011 at 6:04 am |
    • .........

      plz do not waste time with reality post hit report abuse to avoid repeat nonsense

      October 12, 2011 at 7:37 am |
    • joe

      @Rick... Sorry for the delayed response. I'm saying that the bible claims that ho-mose-xuality is a sin. The article is about a minister so I thought the bible was able to be used in the scope of these comments. As to the choice, that's a hard question. I've had gay friends that have asked me the same thing. From their perspective, it wasn't a conscious choice. That said, their environment and early childhood development lead (in some part) to their orientation. I don't think there bad people because of it, just living in sin as so many of us do. As to my sin... choose one 🙂 Let's pick lust. Yes, as a man it's difficult sometimes to avoid that. Was it a choice of mine to be lustful, no. Do you think that because I was born that way it's ok for me to continue? To push it to the extreme, would you say the same of a serial killer who was born with the desire to murder?

      October 12, 2011 at 9:05 am |
    • Rick

      Joe: Thanks for the thoughtful response. It was a welcome change from Stevie. If it is not a conscious choice, I don't see how it can be sinful any more than hair color can be.

      October 12, 2011 at 10:38 am |
    • Calvin

      Behavior is always a choice.

      October 12, 2011 at 11:17 am |
    • MarkinFL

      Calvin(ist),
      So your assertion is that god has decided to play a dirty trick on tens of millions of people by making them only attracted to the same se.x. So they must live their lives alone or commit a sin. Of course considering the story of Job, he seems just the sort to do it. What an A$$ your god is.

      October 12, 2011 at 11:35 am |
    • Rick

      Calvin: Behavior is a choice, orientation is not.

      October 12, 2011 at 11:38 am |
    • Wayne

      "And yes Rick, it is sin, and it IS a choice."

      Actually, empirical and scientific evidence strongly suggest that sexual orientation is not a choice and is inborn. The "pray away the gay" industry has tried to make the choice claim and has largely failed.
      For example, Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper, two of the founders of the largest "ex-gay" group Exodus International left their wives and married each other. After appearing on the Phil Donahue show as a "cured" ex-gay, Colin Cook had to leave his ministry after having sex with his male counseling clients. Focus on the Family "ex-gay" poster boy John Paulk was photographed by man in a gay bar in 2000.
      Meanwhile, as the alleged "ex-gays" were proving that that had not actually turned heterosexual, as advertised, a growing body of research has shown potential biological origins of homosexuality:
      • In 1993, the National Institute of Health' Dean Hamer illustrated that homosexuality might be inherited from the mother by her sons through a specific region of the X chromosome (Xq28). Hamer demonstrated this by noting that 33 out of 40 pairs of homosexual brothers whom he studied showed the same variation in the tip of the chromosome.
      • A June 2006 Canadian study published in the journal, "Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences," said that nature, instead of nurture, explains the origins of homosexuality. The study' author, Prof. Anthony F. Bogaert, at Brock University in Ontario, explored the causes behind what is known as the fraternal birth order. The research showed a correlation between the number of biological older brothers a man has and his sexual orientation. Dividing his sample of more than 900 heterosexual and homosexual men into four groups, Bogaert examined the impact of all types of older brothers, including step and adopted siblings, and the amount of time brothers spent together while growing up.His research found that only the number of biological brothers had an impact on sexuality, regardless of whether the boys were raised together.
      • A study released in May 2006 by Swedish scientists demonstrates that biology plays a key role in determining a person' sexuality. The research shows that the portion of the brain that helps regulate sexuality – the hypothalamus – reacted the exact same way in straight women and gay men when exposed to male pheromones, which are chemicals designed to provoke a behavior, such as sexual arousal. The same area of the brain only became stimulated in heterosexual men when introduced to female pheromones.
      • In 2005, Dr. Brian Mustanski of the University of Illinois at Chicago published a study in the esteemed biomedical journal Human Genetics, claiming he identified three chromosomal regions linked to sexual orientation in men: 7q36, 8p12 and 10q26.
      • In 2003, University of Texas psychoacoustics specialist Dennis McFadden found that when measuring the way the brain reacts to sound, lesbians fell in between heterosexual men and straight women, suggesting they might be exposed to higher than normal levels of male hormone in utero.
      • In 2003, University of Liverpool biologist John T. Manning found that the lesbians whom he studied have a hand pattern that resembles a man' more than a straight female'. Manning concluded from his study that this "strongly tells us that female homosexuals have had higher levels of exposure to testosterone before birth."
      • A 1991 study by Dr. Simon LeVay found that a specific region of the hypothalamus is twice as large in heterosexual men as it is in women or gay men. This strongly points the role of biology in sexual orientation.
      • Another 1991 study by scientists Richard Pillard and John M. Baily studied homosexuality among brothers and found that 53 percent of identical twins were both gay. In adoptive brothers, 11 percent were both homosexual. Of non-twin biological siblings, 9 percent were gay. Again, this points to solid evidence that homosexuality is a matter of nature.
      Additionally, the JUN/JUL 2006 issue of Seed Magazine points out that at least 450 vertebrate species engage in homosexual behavior, showing that homosexuality occurs in nature.
      Eli Coleman, professor and director of Human Sexuality at the University of Minnesota Medical School told CNN: "We've been through this over and over. You can get behavioral changes, but that's not orientation change. You can get short-term behavioral change. It's not sustained."
      Coleman's views are echoed in a landmark 2009 American Psychological Association report that claims: "No evidence that sexual orientation change efforts work, says APA." The report also says "Practitioners should avoid telling clients that they can change from gay to straight." And let's not forget that millions of LGBT people can tell you firsthand that they did not choose their sexual orientation.

      October 12, 2011 at 11:45 am |
    • J.W

      When is being gay a sin?

      October 12, 2011 at 11:49 am |
    • herbert juarez

      @jw
      Perversion is not gay, it is always a sin, and always has been.God bless

      October 12, 2011 at 12:02 pm |
    • J.W

      So herbert what you are saying is that perversion is a sin but not hom.ose.xuality?

      October 12, 2011 at 12:05 pm |
    • John

      "Perversion is not gay"

      Prejudice, bigotry and spreading hate is what is the sin, not being gay. Grow up.

      October 12, 2011 at 12:06 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @ John
      Only the immature would try to conceal sin behind a false statement like that.Sin is sin, If you don't like it tough,but there it is.Fact , not bigotry ,not hate .It is what it is.God bless

      October 12, 2011 at 12:14 pm |
    • John

      "in is sin, If you don't like it tough,but there it is.Fact , not bigotry ,not hate .It is what it is"

      The fact that the sin can be debated even within the church and can be shown not to be a sin based on the facts of today, should give you pause on being so definitive of it actually being a sin in gods eye. Your prejudice and bigotry verifies you sir are not a true christian but the work of the devil to spread hate.

      October 12, 2011 at 12:33 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @john
      Sin is sin it has not changed,it cannot be debated away.No matter what argument or insult is put forth,sin remains as it always was and is.For all your words you cannot change the sin one fraction.Sin needs to be dealt with and God has provided a solution in the shed blood of Jesus Christ.All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.Sin cannot be reasoned away.Sin cannot be bullied away and sin cannot evolve into something acceptable.God bless

      October 12, 2011 at 12:48 pm |
    • Mary

      "Jesus Christ.All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.Sin cannot be reasoned away.Sin cannot be bullied away and sin cannot evolve into something acceptable.God bless"

      In your corrupt mind it's a sin but the church that ordained this pastor disagrees with you, that's the point. Your literal interpretation of the bible has been proven to be the wrong interpretation by many. I agree with John – all you are doing is the devil's work to spread hatred. You hate that which you often fear.

      October 12, 2011 at 12:55 pm |
    • herbert juarez

      @mary
      You are trying to bully and intimidate ,to get your point across.That doesn't change the sin one iota,You can scream and accuse hate from the rooftops 24/7 and it still will not change the fact that same gender perversion is sin.God bless

      October 12, 2011 at 1:13 pm |
    • Brian

      "it still will not change the fact that same gender perversion is sin"

      Only in your own mind, not in God's love.

      October 12, 2011 at 2:20 pm |
    • Over It

      @herbert juarez, For a hom-os-exual person to force themselves to be physically attracted to the opposite s-ex is unnatural for them. You have a perverted, dirty mind if you think that they consciously choose to be that way.

      October 12, 2011 at 2:31 pm |
    • fred

      Mary,
      Many churches have gotten many things wrong over the last 2,000 years. I asked the church if they changed all other reference to ho-mo$exual in the Bible in order to line up with thier findings and the answer was no. The church is to represent the body of Christ. The Catholic Church went off in a direction where many of their teachings went against the word of God. This is why Jesus gave the basic warnings to the Churches. One of the warnings was not to promote things that are pleasing to the culture but clearly wrong before God. $exual orientation was not brought up because that is not what will destroy the soul. What destroys the soul is man walking in his own desire / ways that do not glorify a Holy God.
      Simple way to look at it would be look at the cross where one hanging next to Christ looked and saw God the other had a hard heart, mocking onto his last breath. Jesus said today you will be in heaven with me. Why, he recognized Jesus as the Christ, acknowledged his sin and asked Jesus to remember him. This is why the temple is in our heart not 4 walls and many will find Christ if their cross is next to Jesus regardless of church choice.

      October 12, 2011 at 2:37 pm |
    • joe

      @Mary – "In your corrupt mind it's a sin but the church that ordained this pastor disagrees with you..." (you = Herbert)

      Hiring sinners to do ministry IS NOT a new thing. Look at the disciples Jesus chose afterall. Few would argue that according to the Bible ho-mos-exuality isn't a sin. I don't see anything in the article that says the Presby church agrees with you either. I don't get why people try to argue that the Bible doesn't consider it sinful. I get when they say, "In our culture, most don't consider it sinful." and things like that, but not according to the Bible.

      October 13, 2011 at 8:58 am |
    • Riley

      We can always use the lessons of the past to help make a better now, but can we start considering other time periods?

      October 13, 2011 at 9:02 am |
    • Ok'yDoky

      "I don't get why people try to argue that the Bible doesn't consider it sinful. "

      For the same reasons that people don't consider having slaves anymore, women being submissive, stoning their children to death for talking back or requiring women to marry their rapist.....DUH! Now why don't people follows those in this day an age...uh...DUH...

      October 13, 2011 at 10:53 am |
    • fred

      Ok’yDoky
      “For the same reasons that people don't consider having slaves anymore, women being submissive, stoning their children to death for talking back or requiring women to marry their rapist.....DUH!
      Slaves, we are all still slaves. There are two choices in life; you can serve God as your master or mammon as your master, there is no alternative. I know some think or make believe they are their own master but, an honest look in the mirror shows the slave. God is the good master not a hard master.
      Women being submissive or men being submissive. In all relationships today neither party is equal in all things all the time. There is a dominate submissive role play that remains part of any relationship. When God set up submissive vs. dominate relationships it was designed to complement both and bring out best possible combination of gifts each brought into the relationship. Man broke that not God. Man forgot he is to love his wife as Christ loved (gave his life, took on the pain not dish it out) and the women is submissive because of the love she sees from her husband brings her to her knees. It is not a caveman’s club of submission but love.
      Stoning children as far as I know related to rebellious uncontrolled violent young men not children. I have no Idea how they would have controlled the violent psychopaths of that day. Clearly we are not talking about children or those that didn’t make their bed. Either way it does not fit the character of God so there is something else at play here.
      Marry their rapist was a good thing. The women was one of a conquered tribe and would have had a tuff go of things without protection. Life was cruel when men had the mind set of beasts. Ra-pe is wrong period but that was not your issue. Ra-pe is sin then and now, nothing has changed.

      October 13, 2011 at 1:32 pm |
    • Ok'yDok'y

      “Slaves, we are all still slaves. There are two choices in life; you can serve God as your master or mammon as your master, there is no alternative. I know some think or make believe they are their own master but, an honest look in the mirror shows the slave. God is the good master not a hard master.”

      LMAO! Wow I can’t believe you actually wrote that crap and probably actually believe it too. What a lame excuse and total nonsense. Wow! Now say “yes master!” Wow.

      “There is a dominate submissive role play that remains part of any relationship.”

      Seriously what planet are you living on? Maybe in your relationship but definitely NOT mine. We walk side by side as equals. Hey for your information this is the 21st century you can’t go back and live in the past.

      “and the women is submissive because of the love she sees from her husband brings her to her knees. It is not a caveman’s club of submission but love.”

      LMAO! Seriously dude you need psychiatric help what a warp way of viewing a relationship. If you’re married WOW do I feel sorry for your wife. That is NOT the foundation to a loving equal partnership.

      “Marry their rapist was a good thing.”

      Ok this comment takes the cake!!!!!!!!!!!! You’re lack of understanding of the mentally of someone who has been raped is appalling! It’s just shows how cold you’re heart is and why you are so stuck on the gay issues. You are a pathetic excuse for a human being, you’re reply proved that one. Wow!

      October 13, 2011 at 1:42 pm |
    • Peter

      "Women being submissive or men being submissive. In all relationships today neither party is equal in all things all the time. There is a dominate submissive role play that remains part of any relationship. "

      Healthy love has boundaries that are honoured, respected and adhered to by all concerned. There is no ownership in which one tries to dominate the other. It does not require proving yourself to anybody and it leaves you free to remain your true self. Displays of power or jealousy are non-existent. There is mutual respect for each other in which you have consideration for each other's differences. You resist trying to change the other person to emulate you or to become a vision of how you may think they should be. It is only natural that you wish the other person to grow and succeed in all areas of their life and in all ways – mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually, even if it means living apart. Healthy love generates individual space, where each can do what pleases them without harbouring any feelings of guilt, selfishness, remorse, sacrifice or regret.

      October 13, 2011 at 1:53 pm |
    • fred

      Ok'yDoky
      Since you brought the ho-mo$exual issue into the submissive woman I assume you are both women in a relationship. Are you trying to tell me that you are the first ever couple to play lets be equal today?

      October 13, 2011 at 2:24 pm |
    • Ok'yDok'y

      "Since you brought the ho-mo$exual issue into the submissive woman I assume you are both women in a relationship. Are you trying to tell me that you are the first ever couple to play lets be equal today?"

      LMAO No I am happily married man and I don't hold your views on women at ALL!

      October 13, 2011 at 3:04 pm |
    • fred

      Now, your starting to sound a lot like my wife who is always accusing me of being old fashion. When she does that I point to the vacuum cleaner, then I tell her I'am hungry..... what's for dinner babe. Not sure why that always ends the conversation................................

      October 13, 2011 at 4:29 pm |
    • fred

      Now, your starting to sound a lot like my wife who is always accusing me of being old fashion. When she does that I point to the vacu-um cleaner, then I tell her I'am hungry..... what's for dinner babe. Not sure why that always ends the conversation................................

      October 13, 2011 at 4:30 pm |
    • Ok'yDok'y

      "Now, your starting to sound a lot like my wife who is always accusing me of being old fashion. When she does that I point to the vacuum cleaner, then I tell her I'am hungry..... what's for dinner babe. Not sure why that always ends the conversation................................"

      Just make sure that when she is on her knees from your overwhelming love you get a B J with it. That will really make her day.

      October 13, 2011 at 4:33 pm |
    • fred

      Ok'yDoky
      Sorry about that I am just in the habit of repeating myself twice when I point to the vacuum cleaner and say I'm hungry

      October 13, 2011 at 4:33 pm |
    • Ok'yDok'y

      "Sorry about that I am just in the habit of repeating myself twice when I point to the vacuum cleaner and say I'm hungry"

      You make her prepare a vacuum cleaner for dinner man now that's really gross, well at least you can get a B J from the suction device while you wait. Oh and man is your wife lazy she should have the house ready for you already and dinner on the table that's how it really goes.

      October 13, 2011 at 4:39 pm |
    • fred

      Ok'yDoky, based on your results I will try this equal thing and see if works, I am tired of being home alone with my vacuum cleaner anyway.

      October 13, 2011 at 5:23 pm |
    • Ok'yDok'y

      "Ok'yDoky, based on your results I will try this equal thing and see if works"

      Yea I am wearing off on him! LMAO!

      October 13, 2011 at 7:20 pm |
  19. RAZOR

    The path has snaked into a twisted turn.

    October 11, 2011 at 5:17 pm |
  20. amber

    I'm proud of this guy for doing this. esp with all the hateful "christians" that obviously jump too quick to bash him. isn't it odd how these "christians" of today lash out to people with their hate and tell them they are living a life of sin. don't they "practice" respect thy neighbor?? what about that judging rule?? "christians" today are the biggest hyppcrites around today. why is it that people who aren't "christian" are more of a typical christains then the ones claiming to be. it should tell you something that nonreligious people are better people, care more, and have more compassion than those claiming to be living for "god" that is the one thing that pi$$es me off about those people. these reasons are the exact reasons why i don't go to church and why i don't consider myself to be a "christian" i would rather identify myself with a pot smoking group of hippies than be identified with these hypocrites.. I hope the reazlize someday that if this so called "god" that they're dishing out all this hate for is real, then they should remember that he created everyone and loved everyone. if he didn't want gay people, they wouldn't be here. the only reason they are so against it is because it's living proof that science exists and further proves that we can't even begin to imagine how the human brain works... to all hypocrite "christians" god doesn't like it when people judge... just beleive what you want and choose to not be gay, don't belittle what other people believe.

    October 11, 2011 at 4:46 pm |
    • *frank*

      At first I want all the hateful Xtians to die, but then I wonder if I'm just being hateful like them, and I'm confused; then I realize my hate is justified and theirs is not, so I am comfortable again with wanting them to die. 🙂

      October 11, 2011 at 6:29 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.