By Dave Schechter, CNN
(CNN) - Republican presidential contender Rick Perry recently urged social conservatives to pray for President Barack Obama.
“As I campaign for president, I not only ask you for your vote and your support, I ask for your prayers. I ask you to pray for our country. I ask you to pray for our president to give him wisdom, to open his eyes,” the Texas Governor told an audience in Florida last month.
Doing just that is the stated mission of the Presidential Prayer Team.
Conceived in November 2000 in an adult Sunday school class in Scottsdale, Arizona, the PPT – or “The Prayer Team,” as it calls itself – takes its charge from the words of the Apostle Paul to his disciple Timothy: “First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. (1 Timothy 2:1-2)
“We believe prayer is the most important power in this entire world,” PPT president Jim Bolthouse tells CNN. The idea is simple: prayer moves God and God moves the leaders.
PPT members are charged to pray for their leaders, even if they don’t care for the individual or disagree with their policies. “We don’t necessarily agree with everything our President is doing, but that doesn’t stop us from praying for our President. That is a mandate,” Bolthouse says.
The PPT is a Christian enterprise. Prayers are offered “in Jesus’ name,” but Bolthouse notes that calls to pray for leaders can be found in the Old and New Testaments. Because of the range of beliefs within Christianity, the PPT tries to avoid denominational conflicts.
The original goal was to persuade one percent of the American population (at the time, roughly 2.8 million people) to pray for the president. The campaign was set to launch in November 2001 but the date was pushed up after the September 11 terrorist attacks. In March 2009 the PPT claimed 1.7 million members worldwide.
Today, 3.7 million people “have been served,” according to Bolthouse, a veteran of the computer industry, who played a key role in setting up the PPT’s technical operation at the beginning and became its president (a part-time position) in March 2010.
The $30,000 a month it costs to finance the PPT comes from individual donations. There is no charge to be a member; in fact, fewer than 1 percent of PPT members make a financial contribution, though there are 1,000-2,000 people who donate on average $45-55 monthly, Bolthouse says. These donors, he says, are people who “see the value in what prayer means for our country.” Finances are among the subjects discussed when the small staff gathers for its regular Monday morning prayers.
Most of the communication with members is by e-mail. A daily devotional is sent to some 38,000 members who have signed up for that service. The major weekly e-mail, covering a variety of topics, goes to about 580,000 people. E-mails include suggestions on topics worthy of prayer, “as the Lord moves you,” Bolthouse says.
Since its founding, the PPT has expanded its scope with prayers for Cabinet secretaries, congressional leaders, Supreme Court justices, the U.S. armed forces and even the first lady, Michele Obama. Suggestions are made for prayers on topics in the news, including the economy, relations between Israel and the Palestinians and the health care reform law advocated by the Obama administration.
“We’re taking a much more far-reaching stand in praying for our country, beyond just praying for our President,” Bolthouse says.
The PPT can be timely in its call for prayers. The January shootings in Tucson, Arizona, in which six people were killed and Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords was one of 19 people wounded, happened just eight miles from PPT’s offices. Bolthouse says that the website began offering prayers – not only for those shot, but also for the emergency response and medical personnel involved – within 30 minutes of the incident, even before much of the news media had reported the news.
As for President Obama, Bolthouse says that it has taken effort to convince some PPT members that it is proper to pray for the current president, given their opposition to his policies, some of which he says are “in conflict with biblical principles.” Gay rights and abortion are two such issues, Bolthouse says, explaining, “These are not gray areas in the Scriptures,” he says.
PPT members are “asking God more for his divine intervention in Mr. Obama’s life than in Mr. Bush’s,” Bolthouse says, referring to President George W. Bush.
Bolthouse admits to being personally “cautious” when it comes to the President’s own assertions that he is a Christian, but Scriptures he says, counsel against passing judgment.
President Obama discussed the role of prayer in public policy debates when he spoke at the National Prayer Breakfast in February 2010.
“Surely we can agree to find common ground when possible, parting ways when necessary,” he said. “But in doing so, let us be guided by our faith, and by prayer. For while prayer can buck us up when we are down, keep us calm in a storm; while prayer can stiffen our spines to surmount an obstacle – and I assure you I’m praying a lot these days – prayer can also do something else. It can touch our hearts with humility. It can fill us with a spirit of brotherhood. It can remind us that each of are children of a awesome and loving God.”
Obama has reaffirmed his Christian faith many times, including in a January 2008 interview with Christianity Today.“I am a Christian, and I am a devout Christian,” he said. “I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that that faith gives me a path to be cleansed of sin and have eternal life. But most importantly, I believe in the example that Jesus set by feeding the hungry and healing the sick and always prioritizing the least of these over the powerful.
A poll conducted in July-August 2010 for the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press offered evidence of the public confusion about the President’s religion. In the survey of more than 3,000 adult Americans, 18 percent identified the President as a Muslim, up from 11 percent in March 2009. About one-third (34 percent) said he is a Christian, down from 48 percent the year earlier. Forty-three percent said they did not know.
As for those who would like to succeed President Obama in the Oval Office, when the PPT website posted a column about the Republicans seeking the presidential nomination, the comments that followed included discussion – and warnings – about the degree to which individual candidates are worthy of being called Christian. That Republican presidential hopefuls Mitt Romney and Jon Huntsman are Mormons is just one aspect of that debate.
The PPT website features a prayer wall on which participants offer prayers on a variety of subjects, sometimes on topics known to spark arguments and debate, such as same-sex marriage and the military’s recently-rescinded “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” regulations. There also is a page dedicated to “Morality in America.”
And coming in November from the PPT, one year before the 2012 elections, will be “Pray the Vote,” a project to provide to prayers for candidates at all levels, from the office of President to state legislators. The site will analyze where candidates stand on 10 “value points” identified by PPT members as being of particular interest.
I think these prayers are all a bunch of false prophets and should be put to the biblical test of Elijah to determine if they and their god are real. If they pass they should immediately be formed into a 4th branch of government. But if they fail they should suffer the same biblical fate. And don’t give me that worn out old religious chorus of “Thou shalt not tempt god”. Elijah tempted the other gods to prove themselves so it’s fair game.
22 Then Elijah said to them, “I am the only one of the LORD’s prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. 23 Get two bulls for us. Let Baal’s prophets choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. 24 Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the LORD. The god who answers by fire—he is God.”
Then all the people said, “What you say is good.”
25 Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire.” 26 So they took the bull given them and prepared it.
Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. “Baal, answer us!” they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.
27 At noon Elijah began to taunt them. “Shout louder!” he said. “Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened.” 28 So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. 29 Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.
30 Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come here to me.” They came to him, and he repaired the altar of the LORD, which had been torn down. 31 Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD had come, saying, “Your name shall be Israel.” 32 With the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD, and he dug a trench around it large enough to hold two seahs[a] of seed. 33 He arranged the wood, cut the bull into pieces and laid it on the wood. Then he said to them, “Fill four large jars with water and pour it on the offering and on the wood.”
34 “Do it again,” he said, and they did it again.
“Do it a third time,” he ordered, and they did it the third time. 35 The water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench.
36 At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: “LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37 Answer me, LORD, answer me, so these people will know that you, LORD, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again.”
38 Then the fire of the LORD fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.
39 When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The LORD—he is God! The LORD—he is God!”
40 Then Elijah commanded them, “Seize the prophets of Baal. Don’t let anyone get away!” They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there. 1 Kings 18 18-40
Why don't you grow up and stop believing fairy tales?
@ jim: Did you read the whole thing? I don’t believe in these fairy tales; but, since Christians do I think they should be put to their own biblical test and suffer the same biblical consequences when they fail
A note to help or destroy all evangelists:
1) Explain to a five year old child how and what his shadow is.
2) Can you tell the difference between a man posing as a living god to the actual appearance of the real God?
Seek your answer in the shadows.
You see i like putting stress into any man's mind and to destroy it. It is the most pleasurable thing to do. It is the highest order in helping others to see reality. So here's a tip for all of you die hard fans of Jesus (if you're waiting for him) to return, look at Jesus's feet. Okay.
This one simple thing will prove to you that it is not a man but a real God in reality. The explanation is really simple if you care to think. Thanks.
Remember the scene in Shawshank Redemption? Where 'Andy' has his change of clothes walking back to his cell the night before his escape and how he accomplished his escape?
Yes – nobody bothered to look at his feet. At the polished shoes.
For years I prayed to god and very few of my prayers were answered.
A couple years ago, I started praying to my d ick. Oddly enough, more of my prayers were answered.
What does this prove?
My di ck is more powerful than god.
I guess that's what it means!
Oh so his poll numbers go down and suddenly it's important to start praying. Hmmmm. Sounds like someone is using religion to gain the conservative vote. Why don't you run on policy and ideas then maybe you won't need prayers? Just a thought.
I think that is his policy.
Ok, I have a proposal for all of you religiots.
On election day, you stay home and pray for your candidate to win, and we atheists will all go and vote for ours.
Want to bet who wins?
And then we'll all be screwed
Then you obviously didn't pray hard enough.
How about when they get sick they stay home and pray
Whenever a conservative mentions God, u libs go berserk. However, not it's o.k. to mention the words "prayer" and "president" in one sentence.
Yah, I second that – – huh????
I third it. I think his bible was unavailable to consult, so he winged it, and it didn't work too well.
OBVIOUSLY YOU ALL VOTED FOR THE IDIOT
you still have your stupid lock on.
No you did because we got into a war we didn't belong in, that president also allowed wall street to run us into the ground. Oh and created the housing bubble that everyone knew was going to burst. LOL LOL LOL
and you voted for bush right? so your one of the reasons we have all these issues you twit!
THE ONLY PRAYER I HAVE FOR THIS PRESIDENT IS THAT HE DOES NOT GET RE-ELECTED. ALL HIS PROMISES AND HIS
"YES WE CAN" HAVE GOTTEN US TO WHERE WE ARE NOW! WAKE UP PEOPLE
No, he's trying to clean up the mess from the last president.
I think you left your stupi-I mean caps lock on.
so it had nothing to do with Bush then? because he didn't just take the national dept and make it 3 times greater.....!!!
Obama had 2 years in office where democrates had the majority in congress and the house. He didn't do anything then, and now he's trying to blame it all on the republicans even though he waited for them to get in before trying to pass half the stuff he wanted. He's just trying to make the republicans look bad.
I say he needs to leave office, but the only problem is the republican party keeps picking the stupidest people they can find to run. Bush may have caused some problems, but Obama has done nothing to fix them.
"Bush may have caused some problems, but Obama has done nothing to fix them."
Possibly but he did do some things.
• Obama has overhauled the food safety system
• Advanced women’s rights in the work place
• Ended Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell (DADT) in our military
• Stopped defending DOMA in court.
• Passed the Hate Crimes bill.
• Appointed two pro-choice women to the Supreme Court.
• Expanded access to medical care and provided subsidies for people who can’t afford it.
• Expanded the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP)
• Fixed the preexisting conditions travesty [and rescissions] in health insurance.
• Invested in clean energy.
• Overhauled the credit card industry, making it much more consumer-friendly.
• While Dodd-Frank bill was weak in many respects, it was still an extremely worthwhile start at re-regulating the financial sector.
• He created a Elizabeth Warren’s dream agency: The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.
• He’s done a lot for veterans
• He got help for people whose health was injured during the clean-up after the 9/11 attacks.
@I'm The Best
You have to realize a couple of things, Firstly he passed "obamacare" while he held majority, thats doing more something than nothing, secondly in terms of politics there isn't a lot you can do in 2 years and there was still opposition from both sides on the some of the stuff he wanted to do. There's also things that come along with the job that no one knows about until you actually get there and realize some of the stuff you said you would do is actually not possible (See pulling out of Iraq until he probably got a full report on everything and realized there's a lot more at play then just leaving the country we tore down and not help rebuild it).
I'm not saying that he's done a great job or that he's the best president this countries ever had, I just don't understand why people really believe that Obama was going to do a complete 180 with this country in only 2 years, you need at least 8 years (see Bushes presidency) to actually take a country earning a surplus and turn that into a trillion dollar debt.
so by your math a massive fuk up by bush which took 8 years to fully see thru could have been fixed in 2 years...interesting.. or he tried to strengthen the foundation of what was stripped by mr. common man bush with his nose knee deep in coke and failed jobs.
Maybe it's all the shouting of "No, We Can't!" that's the problem, eh?
Wow.... chill out a bit... I'm not saying he's the worst or anything. And caring for poor people is nice and all, but he's starting up these things without a real way to pay for them. And yes, the is partly the republicans fault. Everyone in politics is just out to make the other guy look bad.
Now I'm pretty Republican, but the republicans in office are way over the top for the way I think. But I do think that at least they are pointed in a better direction than the democrates. That is... unless they keep trying to put an idiot religious nutjob in office... And the Republicans have a lot of things wrong too, but I just personally think they have more right than democrates.
Maybe Obama should go, but replace him with who? Have you seen the Republican cadidates? Holy f balls!!!
And you are enti.tled to your opinion, however I think it's unfair to say that Obama has just playing a political game of one-upmanship this entire time instead of actually trying to incorporate real change. I agree that what the republicans are throwing out as candidates are jokes (except huntsman, but he has no chance). I can also see and even sympathize with the republican stance however, its tough to generally do so whenever I try to reach out to the otherside and get slapped in the face and told that I'm completely off base (as a dem that is)
That's kinda my point, I may not like Obama much, and think that the republicans have policy ideas on some things. But the guys they have lined up to be president are ... just terrible Haha.
I may not like Obama or what he's doing with some of his policies, but at least he doesn't seem to be 'completely off his rocker' so to speak.
@ "I'm the Best". Where were you when Obama and the dems were trying to get the republicans to vote on ANYTHING. They weren't coined the name "party of no" just for laughs.
"Obama had 2 years in office where democrates had the majority in congress and the house"
Who is this "democrates" you speak of?
The Greek god of voting rights?
I was at home, appreciating what they were doing but hating the way they were doing it. Like I said, I like their policies better, but a lot of the time, they just act like children that want to only get their way. There's a time and a place to make a stance on something, but that was neither. And you do have to make sacrifices if you're going to go into politics.
... ... ....yes.
Marie, if more people like you prayed instead of voted,we'd be living pretty well.
I'm going to go stick pins in my Perry voodoo doll! That will be just as effective as praying.
And more fun
Mat 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."
In searching have you found yet, “The Kingdom of God or even where such a domain is located?”
Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
The Lord Christ Jesus has stated himself that this world is NOT of His Kingdom and perhaps never will be,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
1Cr 3:9 “For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.”
Being God’s husbandry, we are all laborers together with God and are given the chance to procreate and thru procreation God places His Hopes that one day soon someone will have an eye to see and in seeing know without a doubt that we are outrightly but Buildings, the structures of the Gods’ grand designs!
1Cr 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"
Some of the Gods’ buildings are as Temples and in these Temples of Godliness, does reside the spirit of all Gods’ wealthiness. A piano player, a drummer, a guitarist a singer are all of the Gods’ Temples. I though am but a building for I did spend most of my days, not doing the things that the Gods have set upon me to do in my youth. I nowadays write what the Holy Spirit inside me dictates to me to write.
Luk 17:21 "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is inside/within you."
Alas, The Kingdom of God is truly inside us! Thank you Lord Christ Jesus for saying it in your Word! Science is so staunch with laborious trials and errors to bring together Fractal and Celestial and Cellular Cosmologies intertwining culpabilities. Time though is on the side of the knowing of Truth.
1Cr 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
By adding light and high magnification can the “hidden things of darkness” upon Inner Space be revealed. Even microscopic magnification as yet today, cannot truly see and/or peer into the atomic plains of magnified relativities.
Only thru capturing light by timed telescopic magnification can one see the far away “hidden things of darkness” in Outer Space. Still, one cannot see but a short distance toward the closer Outer Space phenomenon while much of Outer Spaces’ “hidden things of darkness” will never ever be seen by our prying eyes, much less traveled to.
Both darkened places of “hidden things” are of one accordance and revealing sameness, ergo which one is imitating the other? Or, are both things of hidden darkness being Celestial Objects and Sub-Microscopic Objects mimicking each other simultaneously?
Just exactly how big is the Celestial Cosmos of Outward Spaces? Does it contain only one solitary universe as science unrelentingly still yet stands behind, or are there but a few or even perhaps innumerably immeasurable Universes of too many to count much less even see by our telescoping, prying eyes? Could GOD really be this perception we call the Celestial Cosmos? Could this GOD who is possibly the Celestial Cosmos have a Holy Spirit which is this Oceanic Sea of Nothingness?
Right out of a book. How refreshing it would be to converse with someone who can speak and think for themselves.
Can you find someone like that for me?
The same Richard as always. This is his day job. Endlessly quoting the bible to convince only himself that his god exists.
atleast Richard Kaiser has a creative way of writing and is entertaining and has some valid points.
u on the other hand are drab & boring...yawn...
WRONG! Richard has a tenous grasp on the english language and insists he is actually typing formally when in actuality it's just a mask for his horrendous writing skills and a thesaurus.
Fantasy is often exciting and stimulating, and it can even be useful when brainstorming for solutions to problems. If you decide that it is reality and try to live there however, you get lots of jarring awakenings.
RK's rhetoric is a welcome change, unlike some other pseudo intelligent comments.
What RK writes can't even be considered rhetoric. He regularly makes up words and thinks he sounds smart. It's boring and dumb
It can be boring to type in response to evangelists. Religious people are ever so dull and lame. So herein I have made use of the boredom to entertain myself :) With dull comments to offer towards a dull religious lot. It is only fair.
Disagree, it only counts as rhetoric if its intelligable, which his passages are surely not. Richard is the biggest offender of "pseudo-intelligent comments" on this forum and I'm really stretching the term "pseudo-intelligent"
This is an election not a church picnic. Enough with the religion.
Is she related to Sarah Palin, may be 2nd cousin?
so.... anyone really doing any prayer, or are we all just bashing each other?
BASH BASH BASH BASH BASH BASH
Whatever happened to “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."? (Matthew 6:5-6)
LOL, oh your funny kay... i don't want my father seeing what i do in my room! besides he isn't in my house, nevermind the room... i live in a whole different state then him as well. or i am taking your father comment too litieral... sry can't spell!
The point was that self-proclaimed followers of Jesus who babble on in public with suplications to their idol don't seem to be doing what was asked of them.
well i don't believe that prayer does a dam thing. besides make the person who is prayer feel better. But if they were to do something real and meaningful towards the issue that they are prayer for then they would most likely feel better and have a feeling of accomplishment, instead what i imagine is a feeling of aloniness and empty love from a god who never talks nor answer is any form clear enough to know it was an answer to your issue. But those who believe have a warpped view on things around them...all is in god's hands they say, yet when really really bad things happen – it was satan. a nice simple cop out. We atheists explain what happened thru logic and rational thought, what we don't do is blame invisible creatures, thats a childs game!
If all prayer does is make the one praying feel better, then what's the problem?
"If all prayer does is make the one praying feel better, then what's the problem?"
If only it stayed in the home, then there wouldn't be a problem.
Kept in the home? Why? Are you really that threatened by people talking to their invisible friend?
But was Perry's point to actually get people to pray for Obama, or just to point out that Obama's are 'closed' and he is without wisdom in Perry's opinion?
"Kept in the home? Why? Are you really that threatened by people talking to their invisible friend?"
LMAO invisible friends what are you three? I was giving you the same response a christians gives to a gay person. ;-)
i have always said if you believe something and it helps you live a happy peaceful life then fine, do so.... just leave it at home. and most religions breed hatred no matter there original essence, it has long been wiped clean from this world. today's beliefs are really just hate piled on hate that stemed from a great teaching but instead of following the teaching they worship the teacher... thats alil backwards... i enjoy his teachings, and i never argue against his being here once, but his message was an earthly one, as was he...a man!
"instead of following the teaching they worship the teacher... thats alil backwards... i enjoy his teachings, and i never argue against his being here once, but his message was an earthly one, as was he...a man!"
Amen to that, HippyPoet!
come on in have a cup a tea!
don't go that way...what did you say ... i said don't go that way... thanks.... if she had gone that way she would've gone straigth to that castle!
LOL i think your afew articles late, the labrinth one was abit ago...but good line thou.
At this point, Obama needs more than a prayer.
you're right, he could use a laughably assembled group of opponents, all of which are almost a satire of the political system and repuclianism, except still be completely serious about their own stances and goals.....
Wait.......maybe Perry's prayer worked?
Hey 'Chuckles the clown' ! Your screen name reminded me how hard I laughed when Obama said he visited 57 states.
No wait, I had a bigger chuckle when he said he was going to meet with the president of Canada. What? our neighbor and he thinks Canada has a president? Or the intercontinental railroad. WOW! Won't have to fly over Atlantic, can I get a non-stop train Chgo to Paris- Obama needs some 5th grade geography!
No, I think it was when he said Corpse man, no maybe when he claimed he didn't speak Austrian!
That Obama, he's killing me, can't stop chuckling!!!!
I'm sorry, are you saying that Bachman, Rob Paul, Herman Cain, Romney, Perry, Santorum are any better? You may want to remember our previous president who said such stupid sh.it on such a consistant basis that he had entire books dedicated to his "bush-isms"
I also purposefully left out Huntsmen from that list because i think he's actually a solid candidate that might actually do this country some good and is actually a very reasonable person......which is why the republicans have sidelines and all but killed his chances....because of his rationality.
I guess we're both having a good laugh, but who's laughing at whom?
Also, I meant ron paul, not rob
Yeah, I thought 'universal healthcare' was a good one, too. How does one deliver healthcare to Martians?
I didn't realize there were aliens on mars, how did you find them?
I guess Miss Universe has some competi.tion next year.
When the village idiot prayed to dog to do the right thing in Iraq, dog must have been asleep at the wheel since he told bush to go ahead and kill people.
He's probably praying right now, that he escapes damna tion for his operation FAST and Furious.
Why pray at all ? It's been proven to have no effect. It is a waste of time. It's "self-talk".
Despite me agreeing with what you said, you are using my tag. And that saddens me. Because I am, of course the best.
WORSHIP ME, FOR I AM SUPERIOR TO ALL!
I'd like to do more than worship, LS. <3
oh hail Tom Tom :-)
Rev. Wright prays for Obama every day. Looks like Wright's hatred certainly taken root in the white house.
Good try to all the Christians here, but sadly, the reason it's no use to talk to atheists and non believers is because they DON'T WANT anyone over them, a higher being. They want to live their dirty lives and/or selfish "I rule my own life" way they want, not wanting to own up to anyone.
Like the toddler who pulls away from the parent saying "i can walk my by myself.." THEN gets in trouble and runs back crying. What it all boils down to is are you going to be smart and really consider believing now? Or look like a fool when you're in the face of death asking for God's help? The basic tenants of Christianity are simply that – 1) God made us all and this universe, and is all about love. Anyone have a problem with that? You're crazy if you do. 2) We are all sinners (me too of course) because we have free will and that's what we all choose at least some of the time. 3) God became seriously disappointed in us for choosing evil and not doing good all the time. Most of us have sinned quite a lot. He sent Jesus down, his own son, to show God's love for us and die for us. 4) All we have to do is acknowledge this happened and be appreciative and try to have a relationship with God. Too bad these simple tenants are so hard for people to understand.
Arguing with people who wrote those stupid anti-God poems and other crap shown in this thread really does no good. Because that's where they want to be, they don't want to pay heed to their "Father" who made everything including them. All we can do is pray and hope for miracles but enough of us have to do that. God is not a robot to answer just any prayer. He wants much deeper things from us. Heck i don't know all the answers and it says in the bible "rely not on your own understanding."
All i can say is stop thinking only of your own pleasures and bitterness in life. Give Christianity a try...Other holy religions are great and helpful to mankind, but Christianity is the only one that espouses a Messiah who came directly from God – But don't listen only to sinners like me and other Christians trying to show you the light. Read the Bible for yourself and form a relationship with your Daddy in the Sky – He wants you. Before it's too late.
The atheists will have no response to this.
either this sassysaint is trying to get our goat or maybe (s)he believes this. Either way do you not find it sad that a lot of churches out there are teaching that christianity is the ONLY way you can be happy? Not just the only way to get to heaven, or to feel gods love or anything inherintly theologicial, but it teaches it's congregates that happiness is literally only attained by christians (only their sect too no doubt) and that as an atheist, or any other religious person, I am a bitter self-serving, angry person that has no joy.
You speak about atheists as though you know them all and they all think/act the same way. You're being ignorant in the extreme.
I just read your post and its laughible.... i am very happy at not believing a fairy tales... however i wouldn't mind if the flying horses were real, that would be awesome!
Did your god sanction such bigotry? Thank you for affirming my belief that no good comes from religion.
Here are the simple facts: (1) religious text is flawed (there are many, many examples that I can list if you would like); (2) god is supposed to be infallible; (3) an infallible being cannot write something that is flawed; therefore, the religious texts upon which modern monotheistic religions are based cannot be the actual words of god as they profess them to be. The Torah, the Quran, the Bible... all were written by men – men who were in power and used the texts to keep and expand their power.
You use an example to compare an atheist to a toddler. I use a similar one: the father who cannot explain how the garage door opener works tells the child that there is a little man that pulls the door up when you push the button. The child is young and gullible, having limited life experience, and believes what his father tells him. And so he grows up believing that there's a little man in the garage door, with no reason to question his father's wisdom. It isn't until he actually wants to know the truth – until he opens up the box – that he finds the man-made machinery in place of the little man he thought was there.
It's the same with religion. Argue against it and the faithful will say "But the Bible says..." or "The Torah states..." I can write many things as well without them necessarily being true. The fact that the words are written and were written a long time ago neither makes them true nor valid. The fact is that they are fairy tales, relics from thousands of years ago that were only altered when it served the people in power.
Questioning these relics does not make me dirty. But reluctance to question them is ignorance in its worst form.
Yes Chuckles I do. That is how these megachurches attract their members. That is why most Christians hate megachurches.
well to be fair, if christians hated megachurches, then they wouldnt exist in the first place, they garner a fair amount of support. I've been to the one in CO Springs, its a very scary place, made even more scarier because the people there are very aware of what it is they're doing and do it anyway and think they are righteous.
It is a matter of heart. There were two criminals on crosses next to Jesus. One mocked Jesus until his last breath as did the majority who passed by. The other protested "dont you fear God, we deserve to die for our evil deeds but this man has done nothing wrong. "Jesus remember me and Jesus assured today you will be with me in paradise"
Nothing exclusive about that Chuckles. Very simple you either have a hart that spits and mocks God or you don't. Did you notice Jesus said nothing to the other dying man. Tell me is Jesus saying anything to you?
We do not require a supervisor or anyone to answer to. We are quite capable of taking responsibility for our own actions in life and feeling good about life without the need for fictional characters to oversee us.
You have made claims that you are unable to back with evidence and therefore, you look like a fool. We're not the ones making claims about a god who can't be shown to exist or have ever existed. We are not the ones turning a blind eye to what science says is true.
You can hold on to your fairy tale (most immature minds do) but do not put it out in public...it has no place in a secular country.
Your your post is asinine at best. First, you've been on this forum long enough to know that quoting the bibles and telling stories to prove a point is completely lost on me and makes me fall asleep at my desk quicker than a glass of warm milk. Secondly, if I understood your point, you're saying that atheists and christians see things differently, which I can agree with, and then you go on to make the point that christians see themselves as the good guys, the apparent criminal on the cross who was nice to jesus, vs. the atheist who for some reason has the wherewithall after being nailed to a cross and hung out in the sun to mock someone else. You do realize how stupid that sounds right? I mean think about it for a moment. If you're getting whipped and tortured and eventually nailed to a cross in the desert sun, the last thing you're going to do is look at the guy who went through the same thing and go "Haha, you look dumb!"
I mean come on man! seriously?!
“What it all boils down to is are you going to be smart and really consider believing now? Or look like a fool when you're in the face of death asking for God's help?”
Here’s a hint we are not afraid of death so there will be no asking a non-existent god for help. Maybe it’s the reason you started believing in a god is you are in fact afraid of dying.
“All i can say is stop thinking only of your own pleasures and bitterness in life”
LOL! Sweetheart there is no bitterness in my life. My life is actually doing really well, better than most. You have to assume that so you can feel more self –righteous than others and can feel better about who you are. You want to look at bitterness, re-read your post.
“Give Christianity a try.”
Ok you need to work on your reading skills, we have already stated many of us have tried it and reject it as work of fiction, just like the tales of Santa Claus. It’s all in your head.
Your as.sumptions about how atheists view the world is wrong, at least for some if not most of us...
You said "They want to live their dirty lives and/or selfish "I rule my own life" way they want, not wanting to own up to anyone."
And you may think that, but you would be wrong. I don't live my life selfishly, my parents taught me to be nice to other people and treat them the way I would like to be treated. If I did believe in a god and jesus then I would be an upstanding christain, but I don't.
And as for me, not sure about all other atheists, but I don't believe there is such thing as free will. So I know I don't rule my own life becuase I'm not the one making decisions. Nature is pulling the strings getting me to do something and act the way I do, not me, and definitely not a god.
With all the information out there and at your finger tips, someone would actually have to be crazy to believe in a god. This is because almost everything in this universe is explainable without the use of a god. The things that can't be explained right now have pretty good theories, that also don't need a god, and will probably be solved difinitively someday. Logic and science says that if something isnt needed for a system to run, then why add it? This can be said for god, the universe doesn't need god to work, so logically, there probably isn't one.
"Tell me is Jesus saying anything to you?"
Dude seriously if you are hearing voices you need to see a shrink asap. It's not normal.
"I mean come on man! seriously?!"
Fred can't think like that if it's not in the box then he's lost.
Atheism isn't about hedonism. It isn't about bitterness. It isn't about not "wanting anyone in charge". It is about demanding objective evidence that is sorely lacking and not ceding power to those who say they speak for any god. Anyone paying ANY attention to ANYTHING atheists actually write and say would know this. But people like sassysaint aren't the least bit interested in learning. They want to wallow in preconception and prejudice.
It does not matter how Christians see themselves but rather how God sees you. If there is a God the only thing we have to go on is how He has expressed Himself to us. In you case he is myth and my case He elected to make Himself real through a miracle of a life changing event. That was not my choice. Without that conversion I would not have been either of those two on the cross next to Jesus. How could I fear a God I did not know that chose not to reveal Himself to me.
Gads shoot me, I just read what the scoffing criminal said in Luke 23:39 "So your the Messiah, are you? Prove it" (New Living Translation). Consistent with the Bible throughout He did not prove, rather remained silent to that demand. But, He did reply to the repentant heart. Whether the Bible is true or not to you, one thing is certain, we do not call the final shot.
Keep dig.ging your theol.ogical h.ole. Of course it matters how chr.istians see themselves, both christians and atheists will agree that you don't KNOW how god sees you, so it's up to you to live your life based on how you think you should. In your ca.se, you believe that living as close to gods rul.es and reg.ulations is the right.eous path, even when that path might lead you into are.as that soci.ety has deemed as bad or away from pla.ces that society has deemed as good, beca.use its up to god.
as to your second point. As.king a person cla.iming to be god to prove it is in no way mo.cking that a person, unless the mockery is that the person is lying and being exp.osed as one, that's when you go on the defe.nsive. For instance, tomorrow if you met a person who in all serio.usness claimed to be god/gods son, the jesus in.carn.ate would you be.lieve him? You you ask him to show you, or at least ask what qu.alifies him as such? What if he said, "believe I am, I don't have to prove anything to you"
Really think about it, if Jesus was as ti.ght lipp.ed about his supposed godl.iness in todays world, would he gain ANY followers? And bec.ause of that you'll say, "oh well, we're si.nners and so thats why jesus is .great, because he. di.ed for our sins and forgave us" so I p.ose this ques.tion to you, is it really mans fa.ult for being sus.pici.ous of a person cla.iming to be a GOD and then refuse to prove it?
Whenever I see posts by evangelists offering prayers online for stupid things it's always amuses me.
I see their cowardly displays and laugh because it just their vain and overt attempt to place their version of god unto other people. I see it like this "will you please (the beggar syndrome) let me guide you into my god's life"?
They all want people to accept their useless prayers as something real. That you the one being prayed for has to accept god simply because they already have. The concept sounds so loving and kindhearted but the innuendo is the same.
It goes like this "you see my prayers have helped me to be better". Wherein this is the heart of your supposed belief system. We ask you to do an introspection for us (for the unbeliever) to test it for us then you get into a hissy fit.
I know your inner evangelists' response to being rejected goes like this too:
"Fine then I won't care if you are against me now. You can all burn in hell for not accepting me! You must be angry or something because I care about you." Most people online can not be so stupid but they are. People in close contact and not far away who can see the real you and your real emotions and real care are better than your proclamation of false admission of caring. Realize this fact for what it is. Your words (or prayers) are useless simply because you can not have people accept you based on your words. Tangibility is more important.
Rest is the usual dribble drabble,
'Tangiblity is more important'? huh?
Actually Jesus did not really claim to be God. He claimed to be the Son of God, but he spoke of himself as being less than God.
Then what is it? I mean, he is god, he has to be, that's part of the foundation of christian theology is that he is the son of god and that he is god. There are no such things as demigods or separate gods in the monotheistic christianity so what does it mean that he says he's less than god and yet he is god?
JW-Learning theology from the atheists/non-believers?
JW-your comments about Christian theology are sometime very contradictory to the truth.
Before you post something about the Jesus/Bible, one would suggest you first have a good understanding of the truth of who Jesus said he was, understand trinity. Jesus and God are one and the same.
I always do love the evangelists who keep on doing double takes on their faith. The same lame banter and excuses.
It is always the same crap. "Jesus is said to be the Son" "Jesus claimed he himself was only the Son." Both sentences offer themselves to approve and verify each other. Then the man in you "your reason to believe" is to push this other reasoning into your own mind "Jesus must be the God" "So there. I will now have my God." Proving that there is God."
When you get the two sentences that say other people claim that he is the Son of God and the other verifying factor that Jesus himself claimed... You never see that they are just CLAIMS. But stretching the truth and reaching for the last step – to say Jesus is now the result and the result equates to God. That is your leap of faith. Nowhere did you ever verify the claim. So don't go hissy fitting around when we poke you on your understanding. After all it is only more claims to us.
There are verses in the Bible that support what I said. I dont care if your church doctrine does not.
Ok find me a verse that Jesus said to worship him as God if you all are so smart.
Ya you own line of reasoning is from the book. It's all you ever have had in this life.
Go by the book. I accept my book. The book proves that the book is the truth because that is what the book itself says. So I will claim the book is the truth. So I will also accept the book as truth because the book itself says it is the truth.
Ya perfect reasoning. I understand your faith.
Answer your post made no sense and you clearly have no idea what I believe.
JW-Read John 14.
Mark 10:18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus asked. "Only God is truly good.
Jesus still does not say that him and God are the same person. They are still separate people.
So you just read verses, do you read the whole passage? Do you know what Jesus was addressing here in Mark 10? to who he was talking to?
Here is an excerpt that might help you to understand the context
Thus, Jesus' fundamental lesson is that "goodness" flows not from men's deeds, or even their sincere attempt to keep the Law, but rather must have another source – God Himself. In this context, Jesus' request to "follow Me" is the equivalent of doing good by God's standard. Jesus encourages the young ruler to give up his wealth and put God first by following God's Son.
When we consider that Jesus is drawing a distinction between human standards of "good" and God's standard, it becomes clear that following Jesus is good according to God's standard. And, even if Scripture did elsewhere abundantly declare Jesus' goodness and righteousness (see, for example, John 10:11, 14; Romans 3:25; Heb 4:15; 9:14; 1 Peter 1:19, etc.), the command to follow Him would proclaim it. Thus, by the very standard Jesus is exhorting the young ruler to measure himself by – God's standard – Jesus is good. And, if Jesus is good by this standard, Jesus is implicitly declaring His Deity.
"Ok find me a verse that Jesus said to worship him as God if you all are so smart."
Look in the book of John. "The Father and I are one." "No one can come to the Father except through me. " "Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying."
I think you misunderstood what I said. I did not say he was not the Son of God. But there is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus is a completely different person from the Father. Jesus the person is not who we are really worshiping.
"But there is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. "
There are all part of the same deity, your god transformed into your christ and holy spirit.
JW-Just read the Gospels again, read John 10, 14. Jesus is the son of the God, he is God. Jesus is God. That is the foundation of Christian belief.
They did not transform. They are clearly separate people. There are instances where Jesus talks to God. There is also the Transfiguration, where God says This is my some with whom I am well pleased.
That is not true Observer. Jesus himself refers to the Father as a separate person.
JW-Aside from the book of John, there are plenty of passages throughout the Bible that establishes the divinity of Jesus Christ as God.
Go to a good Bible based church , above all pray that God will open your heart to seek the truth about who Jesus said he was. Jesus is God, because of his death and resurrection mankind is saved, he is the risen savior.
JW-Do you understand trinity? Did you read John 14? He clearly says he and the father are one.
"That is not true Observer. Jesus himself refers to the Father as a separate person."
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty"
According to the teaching of the Bible concerning the Trinity might be summarized:. God is a Tri-unity, with each Person of the Godhead equally and fully and eternally God. Each is necessary, and each is distinct, and yet all are one.
And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. (John 14:13-14 NAB)
Sassy, I just wanted to tell you something that I found remarkably hilarious. You wasted your time writing an opinionated rant that simply isn't true. We don't need morality from a book that isn't true to begin with. Reality strikes again. This is what it boils down to. Not much more than that. Sorry to disappoint.
Ok Observer so when he is praying to God who is he talking to if him and the Father are actually the same person? Read about the Transfiguration. I am sure there are other examples. The Trinity means they are 3 separate people in one.
Also if Jesus is the same as God the Father, who are the other two persons of the Trinity? I assume you believe the Holy Spirit would be one of the others, but that would leave one more
Take a piece of cardboard cut 3 equal size holes in it. One for the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Hold the cardboard up and look at it. That is God.
That is what I am saying fred. If there would be 3 separate holes, that means there are 3 separate parts. Jesus would not even mention the Father if he actually was the Father. The Triune God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However, notice that Jesus is not looking for glory for Himself. He always tells his followers to glorify God. Jesus' human body was no different than any other human body. It was the fact that he was the Son of God is what made him more powerful.
You said: “We don't need morality from a book that isn't true to begin with”
Where exactly should we get our morality from ? If we go with what the culture likes we end up with what the Greeks had Pederasty. Mothers would offer up their boys to be abused by older men and all would praise each other for the great noble thing they have done. The Germans jumped on the blue eye supremacy. The Quran would kill all infidels. Stalin…..enough said.
What suddenly Gods moral laws are not true? They worked fine for 3,400 years right up to today. Granted thou shall not Kill goes back to the bronze age but, what Moses codified gives the foundation of civil and criminal law today.
Love God with all your heart- 92% of the people in this country try and do that. The penalty is separation from God. Not hard to confirm this law in full operation today. If you are an atheist or agnostic you know you are separated from God. The rest are separated from God by the degree to which they Love.
Do not misuse the name of the Lord- Disrespect / profanity against the creator or anyone of authority diminishes both the divine and the person. There is no argument against this. If you doubt then hang around someone who spits and curses at those around or above him or her. What is the state of their mind and relationships.
Honor your father and mother, do not; murder, commit adultery, steal, give false testimony, covet.
Sounds like the foundation is strong even today
We had a dog named Sassy when I was a kid. She had a greater grasp of reality than this person who calls him/her-self a saint.
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.