 |
|
|
|
Military backs off threat to pull atheist from ceremonyBy Jennifer Rizzo, CNN Washington (CNN) - Fort Jackson officials said Friday that an atheist soldier was asked to lower their head during a prayer portion of a graduation ceremony rehearsal, but then decided it was ok for the soldier to stand at Attention. The 20-year old private first class, a proclaimed atheist, graduated from Advanced Individual Training at Fort Jackson in South Carolina on Thursday. The soldier, who requested that CNN not give a name and gender for fear of repercussions, called the Military Religious Freedom Foundation on Wednesday after taking part in a rehearsal for the graduation. The soldier told the watchdog group that during the rehearsal, officials ordered the soldiers to bow their heads and clasp their hands during the chaplain's benediction. As an atheist, the soldier refused to do so. "I immediately pointed out that not only is a prayer at a public ceremony unconstitutional, but to force someone to give the illusion of religion when the individual does not believe in any religion is blatantly wrong and very illegal," the soldier said in an e-mail to the foundation. The rest of the platoon "groaned" at the soldier's stance, but the soldier wrote that "I stood my ground." "When you stand up like this, you make yourself a tarantula on a wedding cake," said Mikey Weinstein, founder of the foundation. Weinstein said the soldier was "brave" for taking a stand. Officials at Fort Jackson threatened to pull the soldier from the ceremony but then backed down, according to the soldier, after hearing that the soldier had contacted the religious freedom foundation. "This is an absolute perfect example of the separation of church and state, and it takes a 20-year-old to stand up and say no," Weinstein said. Fort Jackson officials told CNN a non-commissioned officer informed the soldier to bow their head for uniformity purposes but says there was never a requirement to pray during the prayer portion of the graduation. When the soldier refused, citing a Supreme Court ruling that states there was no requirement to pray in public ceremonies, the officer then took the matter to the platoon sergeant, who also told the soldier to bow their head for uniformity purposes, according to Patrick Jones, a Ft. Jackson Public Affairs Officer. Upon refusing again, the platoon sergeant contacted the company commander who then told the soldier that there was no requirement to pray or bow ones head, but was required to remain at “attention”, Jones stated. “It is not the command’s policy to force anyone to bow their heads and clasp their hands to pray,” said Jones. “The Army fully recognizes all faiths or lack there of”. The graduation ceremony was conducted without incident, Jones said
Next entry »Kagan on faith, the high court and hunting
« Previous entryPastors hope for a louder, unrestricted voice in 2012 election
|
  About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Dan Gilgoff and Eric Marrapodi, with daily contributions from CNN's worldwide newsgathering team and frequent posts from religion scholar and author Stephen Prothero.  |
|
|
|
© 2010 Cable News Network. Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
| Advertise with us | About us | Contact us | Help | Advertising Practices
Ok, so the soldier requested to not have his/her gender revealed in this article, but as 'professional' journalists, can you PLEASE not use a plural pronoun to refer to a singular subject? I.e. 'the soldier was asker to bow thier head..." How about his/her head? Or the soldier's head? Or b*76's head (referring a failed 90s trend for those who remember it)? Anything, and I mean anything, but not THEIR!!!!!
Unfortunately religion, or rather Christianity, is the prevalent religious persuasion in the military, as would be expected as it's the same in the US. But look at where the majority of military personnel–specifically enlisted personnel (privates, sergeants aka non-commissioned officers, platoon sergeant is a position assigned to an NCO), not commissioned officers (company commander, typically a captain, possibly a major) come from. Then look at the average education levels in these areas. Then the average income levels in these areas. Then look at the levels of religiosity in these areas. I don't like the numbers because they tend to support some stereotypes, but the data are the data.
How many atheists are there in the Military?
If my life depended on it, I would say less than the amount of Christians.
I don't think this is about religion. I think this is about not sticking out like a sore thumb and being a distraction. Even if you don't believe in God, a prayer or benediction is usually about something good desired by the assembly, so to assume the same pose as everyone else sends the message that you desire the same good as everyone else in the assembly. To assume a different pose sends the message that you are not in solidarity with the assembly. For a military assembly in particular, which is more important - individiual expression or group solidarity? I tend to think it's the latter.
So the soldiers should march in lockstep simply because some religious kook wants to create a demonstration of prayer as practiced in his/her particular religion? Mike, would you take the same position of a Muslum Chaplain demanded that the AIT graduates remove their shoes and drop to their knees and face Mecca because that is the manner of Islam prayer?
With all of the taxmoney we pay to train the military, one would think that their NCO's would at least be able to differeintiate
military training from seminary training!
I'm proud of this soldier and fellow Atheist. Good for him. I encourage all who either believe or not to be tolerant of others. If I invite a Christian into my house and he or she wants to pray, I have no problem with it. If I go to a Christian household for dinner, I wouldn't want to be forced to pray or say grace, as it would be extremely uncomfortable for me.
People have to understand that religion or lack thereof is a PERSONAL CHOICE and does not center around anyone but the believer or non believer.
The soldier is absolutely right in this regard. He should not be forced to do something he does not believe in, or that makes him uncomfortable. Nobody should. Period.
"He should not be forced to do something he does not believe in, or that makes him uncomfortable. Nobody should. Period."
I'm with you 100%, HONESTLY!
Exactly, NOBODY WAS FORCING HIM TO DO IT.
Once and for all, nobody forces him to bow his head. The instruction was given generally to give reverence to the most solemn part of the ceremony but aisde from not following instructions the SPOILED BRAT suddenly makes a stance even the NCO was still on the microphone and left the formation afterwards without asking permission to make a phone call.
This nation was founded upon separation of church and state. Many early pilgrims came here from Europe due to persecution there based on their religious practices. It is supremely hypocritical for anyone in the military, AND against the law, to discriminate or force anyone to participate in a religious gesture as part of a government funded and sanctioned activity. Have your religion, at home, at church, temple, mosque. Don't force it on ANYONE. THAT, is un-American.
Really, then how do you explain all the writings of the founding fathers and early presidents who wrote using Scripture and Bible based instruction when running the country? The country was founded on freedom of religion not separation.
I think the million dollar question here is...(drum roll)
Did he/she/it speak it to make his/her/its point? OR, did he/she/it speak just to point-out something?
Absolutely, a honorable Military ceremony is not the best venue for the latter. He/she/it should have done it here in Belief blog where most (if not all) atheists like him/her/it hang-out to voice out there unsololicited opinions just to solicit some attention.
I'm actually pleasantly surprised that this didn't have to go above the company commander level. Good leadership.
Actually, there's nothing so much fuss about it IF ONLY that he/she/it just remained in attention and SHUT his/her/its mouth dry.
But I know that atheists just can't hold themselves and would do anything just to solicit attention, that's why it doesn't bring even a bit of surprise to me.
I think the million dollar question here is...(drum roll)
Did he/she/it speak it to make his/her/its point? OR, did he/she/it speak just to point-out something?
Absolutely, a honorable Military ceremony is not the best venue for the latter. He/she/it should have done it here in Belief Blogs where most (if not all) atheists like him/her/it hang-out to voice out there unsololicited opinions just to solicit some attention.
Furthermore, if the faith of American Christians is so strong, why do they need public officials and authority figures to tell them to pray? If you want to pray, just pray. Why do you feel the need to let EVERYONE know that you're praying, and why do you feel the need to have the government sanction it?
Apparently, it was just a part of the ceremony. NOTHING MORE AND NOTHING LESS!
How many christians would be screaming bloody murder if this had been a muslim prayer interjected into the graduation ceremony?
Why do you need prayer at a secular, military event? Why did the organizers of said event decide to violate the line between church and state? Why did the the commanding officers of this soldier decide that he/she should be punished for not wishing to bow his/her head to something he/she considers false? Had the commanding officer simply said, "fine, stand at attention," we would not be hearing about this, but those in the chain of command above this soldier decided to make this a big deal.
This soldier volunteered to serve this country in a time of war. That's courage. Sitting at your computer telling them to stop whining about the violation of their rights is cowardice.
Wow, ok Soldier in question did not follow chain of command by jumping it. The chain did get involved and solved issue. The Soldier took the situation and made it a bigger issue unnecessarily. The prayer that is said is non religious specific so there was no need for the situation to get so out of proportion.
"How many christians would be screaming bloody murder if this had been a muslim prayer interjected into the graduation ceremony?"
@Talullah13
Honestlty, I'm not sure if There's any atheist in Muslim Military and I don't know if they have graduation ceremony either. What is certain here should they have/do, prayer (to Allah) is a solemn part of it.
Now, should there be a single valiant atheist that have the balls to do such thing in a Muslim ceremony, surely I would throw my tin foil hat on him. But most definitely, it would land over his bloody corpse.
"Uniformity purposes"? What a crock of bull. It is disgusting that people think that those who serve shouldn't be accorded the rights for which they sacrifice simply because they put on a uniform. If anyone deserves to have their First Amendment rights protected, it is a soldier. If anyone needs to have their First Amendment rights protected, it is a soldier with unpopular religious views.
Evangelical Christians have been attempting to dominate the military for some time now. In their sick little neo-con fantasies, the military is the sword of God and must be cleansed on any heretical elements. The greatest threat to freedom of religion right now in America is NOT Islam or Sharia law; it is evangelical Christianity.
I have several friends with tales of military life... while frequently there are secular ceremony that most are expected to pay some lip service to, from what I've been told there's alot more religious freedom that people might expect.
The friend in question was former navy, then army wife. She was a proclaimed athiest as well and about the only problem she had was when she was in the hospital from a major injury and the chaplain visited her... he was not entirely sure what to do and she said "just visit and talk, leave religion out of it" so they just had "social" visits.
One of my favorite stories was her best friend (and friend of her husbands) in the army overseas in the Gulf war... Every time the left the armored personal carrier they would routinely have one person of each religion to a quick (and private)prayer for everyone... and even asked the pagan/wiccian of the unit to "work your magic"
They all came home alive, so I guess the divine does shine upon those who work together, reguardless of faith.
Frankly from all the religions I've seen out there, I'm surpised the army isn't actively recruiting Astru – Americian Viking Warriors lol
I can respect a man for standing up for what he believes.
I love you. Many of my friends are Astru, or at least atheists who follow that way of life. I'm quite surprised as well that any warrior religion/belief isn't actively sought for recruitment.
Usually, as an atheist, when I go some where where someone will pray, I stand respectfully quiet. I don't pray... naturally...But I will respect their need to be silent and pray.
For all we know, the kid was just soliciting attention just like any atheists do.
Your great grandfather probably thought the same about minorities wanting to sit at the front of the bus.
For all we know, you are a fundamentalist christian who believes that all non-believers should be executed.
Damn! I'm atheist. And I want attention form this post. I also misspelled "from" to get the attention of grammar nazis.
"The religions of today will be the fairy tales of tomorrow"
@Charlie
"I heard that before when I was a kid. Now I'm fifty years old."
Actually, basically the same statement was made 2000+ years ago.
And most definitely you it will remain the same 2000+ years from now.
"Actually, basically the same statement was made 2000+ years ago.
And most definitely you it will remain the same 2000+ years from now.
-
Possibly, though perhaps with different religions. After all, the Roman gods of 2000+ years ago have now moved solidly into the myth realm.
~~~~~~
And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
In 2,000 years, assuming the human race survives, there very well could still be people that think Jesus is coming any day, but the numbers will be drastically smaller.
This soldier's actions took a lot of guts and he/she makes me proud to be an American.
Nope, I think it doesn't need much of guts. He knew that the worst thing he/she/it could get by doing so is being pulled-out from the ceremony.
Should it been the other way around, let us say for example, a lone religious soldier making such stance in front of his atheists officials and comrades, definitely he go directly in firing squad.
Fortunately, such example is quite unrealistic and would never happen. Because ahteist was, is and will and always be the minority.
Atheists don't have ceremonies to force into secular events, Come Again, and this was very much a secular event. Stop playing drama queen. You are just whining because someone had the audacity to not to be a hypocrite. This person's rights were ignored by his officers so he/she was forced to fight for them. If those officers had said, "Okay, just stand at attention", I doubt we'd have ever heard this little story.
Come Again:
I think we can both agree that there is within any military unit an immense pressure to adhere to the unspoken code of cohesiveness that is pivotal to the intense level of teamwork that is required to survive in the life or death situations that define warfare. By painting him/herself as an outsider in any way, shape, or form, this soldier was risking far more than the benign consequences to which you paid lip service.
The theistic so often pride themselves in their "strong beliefs" which they proudly project even when doing so would compromise their standing in any given social element. In fact, you might say that they measure the "strength" of their beliefs by contrasting it to the self-described "opposition" those beliefs receive.
Yet, when this soldier is clearly risking so much more than his/her popularity, he/she is not afforded the same badge of "strength" and "strong beliefs?"
is it ok if i believe in Tlaloc? I like Apollo too, he is sooooo handsome, and what a body!...but Tlaloc is better endowed, a fact that gives me much hope...or are just pale skinny gods with global money-making-machines allowed nowadays?
we are supposed to be getting ready to travel to the stars...is amazing how many idiots still believe on witches and flying invisible INVENTED good for nothing beings...If any, Tlaloc!
I agree with your point.
Religion only serves at holding science back.
When I was a kid we were told that we might be living on the moon one day, Wow! I thought.
But when I got older I found that people still believe in this crazy bible book, its been years, and I'm still saddened by the backward following of religion.
I'd like them (religious people) stopped today. But it seems the new kids these days are the ones that may see advances in space when they're adults, since thankfully children have the Internet and the holy bible, is looking like a holy bag of sh!t.
The religions of today will be the fairy tales of tomorrow – anybody here still worship Isis, Zeus, or Thor? Foolishness, all of it.
@ Charlie – Thor could give a pretty good showing for followers among the men and women of our armed forces, actually. Indeed, the revival of pre-Christian traditions is one of not the largest but the fastest-growing religious movements in America today. It is all about finding the story that inspires one to be a better person – and I can't think of any case I have heard about of a godhi of Odin or Thor molesting children while his superiors covered it up, or of a priestess of Isis (yes – they are still around) bilking a little old lady out of her life savings.
I fully expect believers will one day be able to get their belief fix in crappy little stalls in 'Vegas casinos, just like those who believe in astrology can today. Astrology – religions predecessor on the superstion evolutionary tree.
@HotAirAce
Wow, I agree, I can see it happening too.
Islams, today you will meet someone who is a virgin, better to stay home!
Christians, today you may need scientific medical attention, praying won't help you!
Other religion, today try to learn about the universe, it seems we may not be alone.
Yes, that will work
"The religions of today will be the fairy tales of tomorrow"
@Charlie
I heard that before when I was a kid. Now I'm fifty years old.
If the military had you bow your head in respect on Darwin's birthday, while an atheist talked briefly of evolution via natural selection, we might expect great outrage from religionists. Government, including the military, needs to quit forcing religion on people. We also need to get rid of the chaplain corps, chaplain's assistants, and military base churches funded by government.
@Im the Know First of all Jew's and muslims believe in the same god as Christians..... So of course there going to respectful. Also the moment of silence in school has nothing to do about praying... it's remembering the people who died for the country, which is why it's after the pledge of alliegence.
I agree that there should be a separation between church and state, but taking away religious solice from men and women who are fighting for their country is wrong. There's no reason to go overboard on this issue. As long as soldiers aren't being forced to partake in religious ceremonies, no one's personal freedom's are being unlawfully infringed upon as far as I'm concerned.
Being an atheist is a death sentence in some countries, and without the war-mongering insanity of religion there would be no wars or militaries in the first place. So, it only makes sense that churches and the military would be intertwined anyway.
A proud day to be an american.....i salute you sir.
I wonder what would have happened in another country (long live freedom)
It is simply this, the soldier in question was disrespectful by interrupting practice. Also, left practice to make an obviously premeditated phone call. The soldier did not follow procedure and has made a good AIT BN look bad. I think the soldier should have been punished for the disrespectful behavior.
It looks like several of the soldier's superior officers were completely out of line for ordering anyone to pray. What is the proper procedure for a soldier to refuse an unlawful order? In this instance it seems that the practice was the ideal time, to sort the issue out before there was a problem at the actual ceremony. Government (and that includes the military) needs to get out of the religion business. I don't care what folks believe, as long as they do it on their own time and not on the taxpayers dime.
No, you're definitely not amusing either. As an 18 yr veteran, AF officer, and atheist I'm appalled that anyone attempted to tell the soldier that he/she had to bow their head. “For uniformity purposes” is not an excuse to make it look like the soldier is praying along with everyone else. And saying “you don’t have to actually pray” doesn’t cut it. There is no official military stance that involves a lowered head; parade rest, attention, present arms, etc. all involve looking straight ahead. I’m in the closet about my beliefs with my fellow service members (as are many of us- especially the older generation), but I won’t bow my head during prayers. Nor has anyone ever asked me to. And frankly, if everyone else in the room is bowing their heads, how is anyone going to notice the soldier didn’t bow his/hers? In no way was the soldier disrespectful. Nor was the soldier the cause of the scene. The NCO, and then the officer, who attempted to force the soldier to bow his/her head were the ones who created the scene. If there had been no inappropriate/illegal order, there would never have been a scene.
AF Officer is correct. There is NO military stance where the head is bowed down. I am a retired Navy E-8 with 21 years service, and I did 3 years as a Company Commander (Drill Sergeant), and prayer itself was NEVER apart of any ceremony that I can recall. This even included change of command ceremonies onboard ship. I'm just wondering why the Army AIT school would even have a prayer at graduation. There was none when I went through recruit training (boot camp) or when I was leading boot camp companies. None at ANY of my Navy schools either.
Must just be the Army that cares about a soldier's soul, then. There is a moment of silence at all of the schools that soldiers attend, from Basic Training to NCO and Officer's schools. Having sat through numerous graduations with varying "religions" represented (including atheism), this is the first issue that has occured regarding prayer. Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, etc. have been respectful during this time. Just curious, though, why did this soldier have the contact information on his cell phone already? Oh, the OTHER athiests at the graduation were embarrassed by this display of disrespect. Don't knock the NCO down for their actions, when the "Chain of Command" (and there is one) was ignored.
The disrespectful action was leaving without permission, and making a statement when an NCO was talking. The article appears one sided without getting the whole story. I bet if the other sides were posted (and some students have) then this whole thing can be resolved. I am an Army veteran of 18 years and never have had any issues with Soldiers of any religion because the prayers at any ceremony are not religious specific.
The disrespect was in requiring the soldier to participate in a religion he didn't believe in.
@ Not Amused, this article does NOT state that the PFC left the formation without permission, or that the PFC interrupted the SGT when he/she was talking, or even when the PFC called the Freedom from Religion Foundation to request support. Based on the available information in this particular article there was NOT any disrespect implied or committed by the PFC. Failure to respond to a question by the NCO or Officer would have been disrespectful. The PFC correctly stated his position regarding an illegal order, specifically the requirement by a superior to bow his head during a prayer. It seems as if you are referring to a different article, than the one here on CNN, or are attributing additional “facts” that are not mentioned in the article.
I am a retired NCO, have been an Equal Opportunity NCO, and also realize that the PFC has the right to stand up for what his beliefs. While you may not have had, or seen, any issues with differing religious beliefs, it does mean that others have not had those experiences. In my over 20 years in the US Army I did see differing religious beliefs, which occasionally did create difficulties in a unit. It can and does happen. This is why it is important for every soldier to know his or her rights (and Army Regulations) and to stand up for himself or herself in an appropriate manner.
The PFC did not make the BN look bad, the NCO/Officer attempting to require the soldier to bow his head did that by violating Army Regulations.
@Retired Soldier-the article may not state what happened (one-sided), but those in attendance know the story. Can you quote the Army reg that states that it is an unlawful order to ask the soldier to show respect-one of the seven Army values? As an EO NCO, you should be able to substantiate your statement as well. Oh, however, I do agree with you that soldiers should know his/her rights and be able to stand up for them, but there are certain chains that must be followed. You, being retired NCO should know all about the Chain of Command, but this soldier did NOT follow it.
Thanks to the officers and NCOs who added to this thread. I'm not surprised that this is happening now and did not happen when you were serving. The evangelical movement has made a concerted push in the last decade to insert their members into the military in general and the chaplaincy in particular. I think that explains events like the head-bowing requirement this soldier faced. I'm glad he recognized it and dealt with it.