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London cleric resigns amid Occupy cathedral protest
Protestors camped near St. Paul's Cathedral have prompted the church to close for the first time since World War II.
October 27th, 2011
11:50 AM ET

London cleric resigns amid Occupy cathedral protest

By Erin McLaughlin and Laura Smith-Spark, CNN

LONDON (CNN) - A senior figure at London's landmark St. Paul's Cathedral stepped down Thursday, apparently over concerns that it planned to evict anti-capitalist protesters camped outside.

Canon Chancellor Giles Fraser had been supportive of the Occupy London Stock Exchange protest camp, the presence of which led the cathedral to close its doors last week for the first time in decades.

"It is with great regret and sadness that I have handed in my notice at St. Paul's Cathedral," Fraser said on Twitter Thursday, but did not give a reason why.

However, he told the London Evening Standard newspaper he was stepping down from a post he had held since 2009 because he believed the cathedral was set on a course of action that "may lead to violence."

The Dean of St. Paul's, the Right Rev. Graeme Knowles, said the cathedral would be "very sorry to see him go" but did not elaborate on his decision.

A statement on the Occupy London website said the protesters were "deeply moved" by Fraser's resignation.

"From the moment Occupy London arrived at St. Paul's Churchyard he respected our right to protest and defended it," it said.

"For that we are very grateful, as he ensured that St. Paul's could be a sanctuary for us and that no violence could take place against peaceful protesters with a legitimate cause - challenging and tackling social and economic injustice in London, the UK and beyond."

Cathedral leaders are expected to make a decision later on whether St. Paul's, a major tourist attraction and historic center of worship in the heart of London's financial district, will reopen Friday.

Knowles said Wednesday he was optimistic the cathedral might be able to reopen after changes to the way the tent city, which sprang up outside 12 days ago, was laid out.

"The staff team here have been working flat out with the police, fire brigade and health and safety officers to try to ensure that we have confidence in the safety of our worshippers, visitors and staff which will allow us to reopen," he said in a statement.

Knowles said St. Paul's believed in the right to peaceful protest but had asked the protesters to move on peacefully. It was consulting lawyers on measures it could take, including court action, he said.

Last Friday, the dean said the cathedral, which normally welcomes thousands of visitors each day, would be closed until further notice because of "practical and safety issues," including a fire risk from stoves used by those camping out.

The Evening Standard quoted London Mayor Boris Johnson Thursday as calling for new laws to prevent tent cities "erupting like boils" across London, and telling the activists: "In the name of God and Mammon, go."

A separate piece written by the Bishop of London, Dr. Richard Chartres, for the newspaper said the reopening of St. Paul's would be a victory for common sense.

He urged the protesters to disband, saying their original message had been all but lost amid media reports on other aspects of the protest. St. Paul's would organize a debate on the issue if they left peacefully, he offered.

St. Paul's Cathedral, designed by architect Sir Christopher Wren, was built between 1675 and 1710. A church has stood on the site near the banks of the River Thames for more than 1,400 years.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Christianity • Church • Leaders • United Kingdom

soundoff (207 Responses)
  1. John

    [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dz59JANSdg&w=640&h=360]
    ,.

    November 1, 2011 at 5:38 pm |
    • .....

      GARBAGE ALERT – click the report abuse link to get rid of this sick TROLL!

      November 1, 2011 at 5:39 pm |
  2. clay

    Hey, Reality. I've probably already said this but... You're never going to disprove religions like this.
    "SAVING 1.5 BILLION LOST MUSLIMS:
    THERE NEVER WERE AND NEVER WILL BE ANY ANGELS I.E. NO GABRIEL, NO ISLAM AND THEREFORE NO MORE KORANIC-DRIVEN ACTS OF HORROR AND TERROR LIKE 9/11.
    SAVING 2 BILLION LOST CHRISTIANS:
    THERE WERE NEVER ANY BODILY RESURRECTIONS AND THERE WILL NEVER BE ANY BODILY RESURRECTIONS I.E. NO EASTER, NO CHRISTIANITY.
    SAVING 15.5 MILLION FOLLOWERS OF JUDAISM:
    ABRAHAM AND MOSES PROBABLY NEVER EXISTED."
    So you're point is "Don't listen to all of these people because I claim they don't exist, yet can't prove it."
    Why should I listen to you? I have no idea who you are, the only thing I know about you is that you like typing in all caps and have a vendetta against all religions. Talk about a bias... So basically, nothing you're saying is coming across as reliable to people who believe the things you're denouncing.

    November 1, 2011 at 12:43 pm |
    • Reality

      Caps were used to prepare a PowerPoint slide for posting on church, mosque and synagogue doors.

      Added details as noted on the last line of the PowerPoint slide:

      Part 1 ( for Clay's benefit)

      Saving Christians from the Infamous Resurrection/Easter Con/Disease:

      From that famous passage: In 1 Corinthians 15 St. Paul reasoned, "If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

      Even now Catholic/Christian professors of theology are questioning the bodily resurrection of the simple, preacher man aka Jesus.

      To wit;

      From a major Catholic university's theology professor’s grad school white-board notes:

      "Heaven is a Spirit state or spiritual reality of union with God in love, without earthly – earth bound distractions.
      Jesus and Mary's bodies are therefore not in Heaven.

      Most believe that it to mean that the personal spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while living on earth as an embodied person.

      Again, the physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus' crucified corpse), and Assumption (Mary's corpse) into heaven did not take place.

      The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of the Church.

      Only Luke's Gospel records it. The Assumption ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers The Assumption has multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female bodies." "

      "In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him."
      http://eternal-word.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

      With respect to rising from the dead, we also have this account:

      An added note: As per R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,

      p.4

      "Reimarus (1774-1778) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."

      p.168. by Ted Peters:

      Even so, asking historical questions is our responsibility. Did Jesus really rise from the tomb? Is it necessary to have been raised from the tomb and to appear to his disciples in order to explain the rise of early church and the transcription of the bible? Crossan answers no, Wright answers, yes. "

      So where are the bones"? As per Professor Crossan's analyses in his many books, the body of Jesus would have ended up in the mass graves of the crucified, eaten by wild dogs, covered with lime in a shallow grave, or under a pile of stones.

      November 1, 2011 at 3:51 pm |
  3. Muneef

    To Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. Whether you show what is within yourselves or conceal it, Allah will bring you to account for it. Then He will forgive whom He wills and punish whom He wills, and Allah is over all things competent. 2:284

    The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination." 2:285

    Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. It will have [the consequence of] what [good] it has gained, and it will bear [the consequence of] what [evil] it has earned. "Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred. Our Lord, and lay not upon us a burden like that which You laid upon those before us. Our Lord, and burden us not with that which we have no ability to bear. And pardon us; and forgive us; and have mercy upon us. You are our protector, so give us victory over the disbelieving people." 2:286

    October 30, 2011 at 8:05 am |
    • Reality

      A 21st century view:

      Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

      This agenda continues as shown by the ma-ssacre in Mumbai, the as-sas-sinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, the Ft. Hood follower of the koran, and the Filipino “koranics”.

      And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

      Current crises:

      The global Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

      October 31, 2011 at 12:06 am |
    • Muneef

      21century appears to being more sav-age than any other time.... So it is not some thing to be proud with...

      October 31, 2011 at 6:42 am |
    • Reality

      The Twenty (or so) Worst Things People Have Done to Each Other by Numbers Killed and By Century:

      M. White, http://necrometrics.com/warstatz.htm#u (required reading)

      The Muslim Conquest of India

      "The likely death toll is somewhere between 2 million and 80 million. The geometric mean of those two limits is 12.7 million. "

      Rank …..Death Toll ..Cause …..Centuries……..Religions/Groups involved*

      1. 63 million Second World War 20C (Christians et al and Communists/atheists vs. Christians et al, Nazi-Pagan and "Shintoists")

      2. 40 million Mao Zedong (mostly famine) 20C (Communism)

      3. 40 million Genghis Khan 13C (Shamanism or Tengriism)

      4. 27 million British India (mostly famine) 19C (Anglican)

      5. 25 million Fall of the Ming Dynasty 17C (Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Chinese folk religion)

      6. 20 million Taiping Rebellion 19C ( Confucianism, Buddhism and Chinese folk religion vs. a form of Christianity)

      7. 20 million Joseph Stalin 20C (Communism)

      8. 19 million Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C (Islam)

      9. 17 million Timur Lenk 14C-15C

      10. 16 million Atlantic Slave Trade 15C-19C (Christianity)

      11. 15 million First World War 20C (Christians vs. Christians)

      12. 15 million Conquest of the Americas 15C-19C (Christians vs. Pagans)

      13. 13 million Muslim Conquest of India 11C-18C

      14. 10 million An Lushan Revolt 8C

      15. 10 million Xin Dynasty 1C

      16. 9 million Russian Civil War 20C (Christians vs Communists)

      17. 8 million Fall of Rome 5C (Pagans vs. Pagans)

      18. 8 million Congo Free State 19C-20C (Christians)

      19. 7½ million Thirty Years War 17C (Christians vs Christians)

      20. 7½ million Fall of the Yuan Dynasty 14C

      October 31, 2011 at 8:20 am |
  4. Avser Bastian

    NEW & RELOADED !! NOT ANTI WALL-STREET PROTESTS, BUT INSTEAD ANTI WHITES !!

    ANTI WALL-STREET PROTESTS ARE ALSO KNOWN UNDER ZIONIST "TRANSFER OF OWNERSHIP" IN AMERICA !! TRANSFER OF OWNERSHIP FROM HANDS OF WHITE AMERICANS TO SO CALLED "MINORITIES"(COMMUNISM)

    ANTI WALL-STREET PROTEST MOVEMENT IS LED BY SO CALLED "ANONYMOUS" !!

    HAHA...TELL ME WHO IS ANONYMOUS IN A POLICE STATE AND WHERE PEOPLE ARE SURVEILLANCED 24/7 !!? WHO !!? NOBODY !!! ABSOLUTELY NOBODY IS ANONYMOUS IN A POLICE STATE AND NOR ARE THOSE WHO MADE YOU PROTEST FOR THEIR SAKE OR WHAT MULTICULTURALISM IS !!! Wall street protesters are Obama's raise of the planet Apes army which spread from London per Zionist Washington DC and communist Moscow where new Stalin is in place – PUTIN !!!

    VISIT http://multiculturalismisterrorism.blogspot.com

    THEY WERE MURDERING YOU WITH AND INSIDE OF THEIR CORPORATIONS FOR OVER 66 YEARS !!! THEY HAVE CLOSED DOWN ALMOST EVERY SMALL COMPANY(FARMS) IN UNITES STATES OF AMERICA AND NOW, THEY WANT YOU TO GO OUT THERE AND PROTEST FOR THEM AGAINST WALL STREET(corporations = Wall-street) !!!

    THEY CRIME CONTEMPLATED AGAINST US PER EQUAL EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITY COMMISSION FOR OVER 66 YEARS AND NOW, THEY WANT YOU TO RAISE COMMUNIST FLAG UNDER AMERICAN SKY !!! ONE RACE; RAT RACE(COMMUNISM) !!!

    IF YOU PROTEST(YOU SHOULD), MAKE SURE TO RAISE SIGN WHERE DISPLAYED I CITE "66 YEARS OF GENOCIDE AGAINST WHITES IS NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE" OR GET LOST HOME IF NOT ALREADY HOMELESS(I despise people who starve to death out there and are afraid to say out loud what is truth even while protesting...I despise people who only see themselves and do NOT care even about children of their own...children who will be turned one day in white refugees as seen on above video thanks to their parents who are awaiting...awaiting in fear to become homeless and what is inevitable at any given moment) !!!

    THIS NEWS IS RELATED TO

    WHITES AREN’T WELCOME IN AMERICA ANY LONGER !!! OUT OF AMERICA WITH WHITES NOW !!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xGfYOAydjw OR http://www.youtube.com/user/BostjanAvsec <== OBAMA'S HEALTH CARE RECORDED LIVE IN 2009 (EXILING WHITES AND IMPORTING NON WHITES). THIS IS THE MAIN REASONS PER WHY WALL-STREET PROTESTERS APPEARED(to cover up government crime/genocide against white population because Obama = Osama) BESIDE ALREADY MENTIONED "TRANSFER OF OWNERSHIP"(COMMUNISM).

    October 29, 2011 at 12:58 pm |
    • OFFENSIVE IGNORANCE

      ...but seriously folks.

      October 30, 2011 at 2:53 pm |
    • clay

      You know what. I've decided not to read this because it's in all caps.

      November 1, 2011 at 12:44 pm |
  5. Islander

    Sorry A TRUE........ you may be sincere but you are patently wrong; 180 degrees from discerning what the truth is...... you're just incorrect. In fact, the opposite of what you say is ' real true long term dedicated patriotism.

    October 28, 2011 at 8:10 pm |
    • Oppositional Mislogic

      There is a long difference between blind allegiance and patriotism in the American sense. Perhaps that is the misunderstanding. There were plenty of soldiers of various nationalities who all thought of themselves as patriots, because they saw theirself as fulfilling the will of their current leader as standing up for their country. American Patriotism must put the values of the Const-i-tution, including the Bill of Rights before the desires of any such leaders, and all take a solemn oath to do so.

      From a literary standpoint the word liberal derives from liberty which is another word for freedom. How can any patriot therefore claim to fiight for freedom and be against liberty or liberals.

      The opposite of what True said is real long term slavery, even if it be consentual.

      October 29, 2011 at 12:34 am |
  6. Keith

    Islamic Extremists be-head 17-year-old Christian

    October 28, 2011 at 7:33 pm |
    • Muneef

      It happens to all families what ever their religions were when there are conflicts many do take the advantage to spew their hatred on both sides...

      October 28, 2011 at 8:19 pm |
    • Reality

      And then we have the terror and horror of one-sided, koranic-driven Islam:

      Some examples:

      The Muslim Conquest of India – 11th to 18th century

      ■"The likely death toll is somewhere between 2 million and 80 million. The geometric mean of those two limits is 12.7 million. "

      and the 19 million killed in the Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C by Muslims.

      and more recently

      1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured

      1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

      2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

      3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US troops killed in action, 3,480 and 928 in non combat roles. 102,522 – 112,049 Iraqi civilians killed as of 9/16/2011/, mostly due to suicide bombers, land mines and bombs of various types, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

      4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

      5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

      6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

      7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

      8. UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

      9) The execution of an eloping couple in Afghanistan on 04/15/2009 by the Taliban.

      10) – Afghanistan: US troops 1,385 killed in action, 273 killed in non-combat situations as of 09/15/2011. Over 40,000 Afghan civilians killed due to the dark-age, koranic-driven Taliban acts of horror

      11) The killing of 13 citizen soldiers at Ft. Hood by a follower of the koran.

      12) 38 Russian citizens killed on March 29, 2010 by Muslim women suicide bombers.

      13) The May 28, 2010 attack on a Islamic religious minority in Pakistan, which have left 98 dead,

      14) Lockerbie is known internationally as the site where, on 21 December 1988, the wreckage of Pan Am Flight 103 crashed as a result of a terrorist bomb. In the United Kingdom the event is referred to as the Lockerbie disaster, the Lockerbie bombing, or simply Lockerbie. Eleven townspeople were killed in Sherwood Crescent, where the plane's wings and fuel tanks plummeted in a fiery explosion, destroying several houses and leaving a huge crater, with debris causing damage to a number of buildings nearby. The 270 fatalities (259 on the plane, 11 in Lockerbie) were citizens of 21 nations.

      15 The daily suicide and/or roadside and/or mosque bombings in the terror world of Islam.

      16) Bombs sent from Yemen by followers of the koran which fortunately were discovered before the bombs were detonated.

      17) The killing of 58 Christians in a Catholic church in one of the latest acts of horror and terror in Iraq.

      18) Moscow airport suicide bombing: 35 dead, 130 injured. January 25, 2011.

      19) A Pakistani minister, who had said he was getting death threats because of his stance against the country's controversial blasphemy law, was shot and killed Wednesday, 3/2/2011

      20) two American troops killed in Germany by a recently radicalized Muslim, 3/3/2011

      21) the kidnapping and apparent killing of a follower of Zoraster in the dark world of Islamic Pakistan.

      22) Shariatpur, Bangladesh (CNN 3/30/2011) - Hena Akhter's last words to her mother proclaimed her innocence. But it was too late to save the 14-year-old girl. Her fellow villagers in Bangladesh's Shariatpur district had already passed harsh judgment on her. Guilty, they said, of having an affair with a married man. The imam from the local mosque ordered the fatwa, or religious ruling, and the punishment: 101 lashes delivered swiftly, deliberately in public. Hena dropped after 70 and died a week later.

      23) "October 4, 2011, 100 die as a truck loaded with drums of fuel exploded Tuesday at the gate of compound housing several government ministries on a busy Mogadishu street. It was the deadliest single bombing carried out by the al Qaeda-linked al-Shabab group in Somalia since their insurgency began. "

      October 29, 2011 at 12:32 am |
    • Remove The Blinders Please

      We need to stop focusing on just the opposite side off the picture and look at ourselves and our culture as well. Not all religious violence is fed by only one religion and not all violence is fed by religion. Anyone who thinks otherwise is very limited in their historical knowledge and human perspective.

      It is true that religious fed violence should be ended, but so should non-religious violence. Violence, violation of others, is not always openly physical either. Sometimes it done through long distance button pushing or economic means etc. I believe that was what the article above was about.

      October 29, 2011 at 12:45 am |
    • Muneef

      Remove The Blinders Please.

      Yes Reality has blinders over his eyes,ears and GOD knows where else...as to Keith he has a GOD of his own no GOD like him and believes that his Jesus is not the Jesus that is in the Quran but rather other ET Version...

      Any way dear I respect your jewel comment which is of the Purest and most deep vision that many other lack just as the blind folded justice.... So can say am 100% with your comment honorable post and GOD Bless.

      October 29, 2011 at 6:57 am |
    • Reality

      One more time, the CURE for Muneef and our sister and brother Muslims:

      The Five Steps To Deprogram 1400 Years of Islamic Myths:
      ( –The Steps take less than two minutes to finish- simply amazing, two minutes to bring peace and rationality to over one billion lost souls- Priceless!!!)

      Are you ready?

      Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

      The First Five of the 77 Branches:

      "1. Belief in Allah"

      aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc. should be added to your cleansing neurons.

      "2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

      Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gi-b G-nab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "crea-tionist".

      "3. To believe in the existence of angels."

      A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/de-vils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hitt-ites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ug-ly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as f–airies and "tin–ker be-lls". Modern de-vils are classified as the de-mons of the de-mented.

      "4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

      Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

      Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the un-educated masses in line. Today we call them for-tune tellers.

      Prophecies are also invali-dated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

      "5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him)
      alone."
      Mohammed spent thirty days "fasting" (the Ramadan legend) in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic vi-olence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallu-cinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

      Walk these Five Steps and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!

      Unfortunately, there are not many Muslim commentators/readers on this blog so the "two-minute" cure is not getting to those who need it. If you have a Muslim friend, send him a copy and help save the world.

      Analogous steps are available at your request for deprogramming the myths of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Paganism..

      October 29, 2011 at 7:57 am |
    • Muneef

      As seems we at the 3world had all the buttons pushed against us to have us kneel to the ground in poverty and ignorance..!

      October 29, 2011 at 6:24 pm |
    • Reality

      Poverty and Ignorance?

      So all Islamic countries are Third World? Hardly!!!!!

      October 29, 2011 at 6:33 pm |
    • Muneef

      Ok just say all republican Islamic countries are 3world...Royalists got all the wealth and developments... While the rest are left to deal with created internal conflicts... Experiencing all the buttons that are being pushed against them to remain back on line...!

      October 29, 2011 at 8:00 pm |
    • REALITY IS A VERY UNSKILLED DEPROGRAMMER

      Deprogramming is the act of correcting an error in programming.

      To be properly done, deprogramming requires that the PROGRAMMER thoroughly understand the reasons for the perceived errors, in the subject being deprogrammed; so a more accurate and relevant programming can be developed to replace it. Often in the process of gaining the necessary understanding first, to determine what truly needs to be deprogrammed; the programmer learns that their first impressions were incorrect or incomplete and must then rethink their solutions.

      To do proper deprogramming requires a certain amount of respect for the subject being reprogrammed, otherwise the understanding necessary to implement the proper corrections can never be attained. Sometimes in the act of showing this respect to the previous programmers, the deprogrammer learns they didn't know as much as they thought they did and must adjust their methods accordingly. Of course this means the deprogrammer is actally deprogramming their inital beliefs in the required process. Deprogramming is more of an interactive, than a dictatorial process, reuqiring the active understanding of both parties involved. Neither side will alter their beliefs unless the new truths provide more benefit to their lives than the old truths. It takes more than just someone saying something different.

      What makes REALITY's writings for humans, better than the other writings of humans for humans? Does the constant dictatorial tone imply feelings that aren't much different than those that REALITY would criticize? Isn't their a bit of empty hubris, self important ignorance, involved in believing that two minutes of reading Reality's writings will "correct" or reprogram thousands of years of understandings? How is it any different than what REALITY attributes to ancient priests?

      Todays prophets are called analysts and they exist in virually every profession. They aren't always right either, but many still seem to value their advice.

      One definition of insanity, is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results. What can we therefore conclude by REALITY posting vitually the same posts over and over again, for months or years now, while expecting that this time the targets will miraculously understand? Perhaps some might think Muneef makes a similar error, but there are those who understand the metaphor, parable and allegory of the ancient poetic mind required to see the truths that exist in all the ancient and sometimes no so ancient texts.

      Perhaps more thorough analysis, including a healthy dose of respect, is required before proposing such overly simplistic solutions for complex issues; whether those solutions come from today's knowledge or age old knowledge. All of our understanding was done through the filter of humans, with all the human short comings at the time, then or now.

      Perhaps if more time was spent trying to understand the totality of human religious understandings and the benefits they provide; it would become obvious that the harmful things done in the name of religion, are the result of human misinterreptation, intentional or not, be it written in the text by humans or translated incorrectly. The same will be done as well with any replacement, since those fallible humans will still be involved. That doesn't mean its time for another Noah though.

      You don't through a baby out with dirty bath water. You through the dirty water away and hold on to the cherished potential of a better life.

      October 30, 2011 at 4:28 pm |
    • REALITY IS A VERY UNSKILLED DEPROGRAMMER

      "Don't throw the baby" not "Through the baby". Perhaps a problem with not being too much of a literalist.

      October 30, 2011 at 4:35 pm |
    • Muneef

      Waw I like that it sounds right to me... Just hope this post will "Remove The Blinders" from the reading eyes... Thank you friend you saved my skin from Reality posts and would wish if it would be posted on every blog that Reality is at...Thanks again...

      October 30, 2011 at 8:03 pm |
    • Reality

      Deprogram – definition

      (dē-prō'grăm', -grəm)

      tr.v., -grammed, or -gramed, -gram·ming, or -gram·ing, -grams, or -grams.
      To counteract or try to counteract the effect of an indoctrination, especially a religious or cult indoctrination.

      Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/deprogramming#ixzz1cKSso37W

      October 31, 2011 at 12:09 am |
    • Muneef

      Too much deprograming has deprogramed our Reality till he became not knowing which side he is with...!

      October 31, 2011 at 6:45 am |
    • Reality

      Deprogramming 3.5 Billion Lost Souls with One PowerPoint Slide:

      SAVING 1.5 BILLION LOST MUSLIMS:
      THERE NEVER WERE AND NEVER WILL BE ANY ANGELS I.E. NO GABRIEL, NO ISLAM AND THEREFORE NO MORE KORANIC-DRIVEN ACTS OF HORROR AND TERROR LIKE 9/11.

      SAVING 2 BILLION LOST CHRISTIANS:
      THERE WERE NEVER ANY BODILY RESURRECTIONS AND THERE WILL NEVER BE ANY BODILY RESURRECTIONS I.E. NO EASTER, NO CHRISTIANITY.

      SAVING 15.5 MILLION FOLLOWERS OF JUDAISM:
      ABRAHAM AND MOSES PROBABLY NEVER EXISTED.

      Added details upon request.

      October 31, 2011 at 8:30 am |
    • Closed Minds

      Closed minds are by their nature unattractive... regardless of what religious or non-religious doctrine they are closed by. That means they will not bring people or understandings together in understanding of the totality of the truth. Rules of exclusion will always drive the truth away, since by their nature they are intended to divide rather than acknowledge the interacting unity of all. ah. which is understood incompletely and differently by humans based entirely on the regions and cultures they grew up in....and is also known by many names, even those that attempt to do away with the older or other names. Until that is realized no one will be successfully re programmed; Humans will just keep worshiping the products of their own egos or the ego of their culture, which is often more comforting than adopting the other incomplete misunderstandings of foreign cultures. The jet plane has made it important that we find better ways to understand and acknowledge these things. Respect, not fear, is the most important rule in all of this. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, or in more precise language do not do to others what they do not want done to them.

      October 31, 2011 at 11:02 am |
    • IT de Programming

      In the Information Technology world it is recognized that you almost never throw out the whole program when it doesn't work, but rather identify the errors within the program and correct the erros alone; allowing the rest of the program to function properly as it was originally intended. This correction effort can also be seen in the sometimes conflicting verses of religious texts and other non-religiuos philosophies as well, as their supporting cultures evolve and change, based on the situations the encounter.

      This is where the lieralists fail in their understandings as they believe all the word is always correct, though it really only shows they don't know enough about the texts to see the conflicting verses. Once they do it forces them to ask why and either make corrections or throw the entire program out.

      Unfortunately those that throw the entire program out and start over, introduce their own misunderstandings, though their ego seldom allows them to admit that, until life forces them to make their own adjustments. It's a never ending process so each mans understanding is always at a different level than everyone elses based on their own life experience.

      October 31, 2011 at 11:50 am |
    • Muneef

      Reality.
      Check those two beautiful realistic posts above which will only come from one mind although with two different screen names... Not as your Chainsaw which you keep chasing us with....!

      October 31, 2011 at 8:49 pm |
    • Kraken

      Mohammed's brother slept with 5 thugs and now we see the result. Nothing.

      October 31, 2011 at 8:56 pm |
    • Oh Yeah!

      And Zeus and his siblings killed their father after he ate them all but Zeus, before Zeus fed him something that made him throw them back up. The moral of the story is never swallow a rock in swadling clothes after you've eaten the rest of your children. Its allegoric but a Kracken should know the meaning.

      November 1, 2011 at 12:27 am |
  7. GodIsALie

    "Screw God! We're supporting the banks. Get all of these scurvy dogs away from the cathedral before we have them gassed!"

    So sayeth the Church of the Almighty British Pound.

    October 28, 2011 at 5:04 pm |
    • grace

      You have sold your soul to the devil. I pray that you will soon come to the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ becos you

      are lost without God. May God forgive you.

      October 28, 2011 at 8:23 pm |
    • AGuest9

      You have sold your [non-existent organ] to the [non-existent evil spirit]. I [perform a worthless ceremony] that you will soon come to the knowledge of the [non-existent good spirit]...

      October 28, 2011 at 8:30 pm |
  8. Keith

    Did anyone see the school kids who were forced to pray in a mosque on a field trip in Britian?

    October 28, 2011 at 4:28 pm |
    • Muneef

      OMG....any one of them got haunted,cursed or died....? Am sure GOD is most forgiving and accepts from all at any worship house or by any means of worship...!

      And who would be averse to the religion of Abraham except one who makes a fool of himself. And We had chosen him in this world, and indeed he, in the Hereafter, will be among the righteous. 2:130

      When his Lord said to him, "Submit", he said "I have submitted [in Islam] to the Lord of the worlds." 2:131

      And Abraham instructed his sons [to do the same] and [so did] Jacob, [saying], "O my sons, indeed Allah has chosen for you this religion, so do not die except while you are Muslims." 2:132

      Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We will worship your God and the God of your fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac – one God. And we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."
      2:133

      That was a nation which has passed on. It will have [the consequence of] what it earned, and you will have what you have earned. And you will not be asked about what they used to do. 2:134

      They say, "Be Jews or Christians [so] you will be guided." Say, "Rather, [we follow] the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth, and he was not of the polytheists." 2:135

      Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." 2:136

      So if they believe in the same as you believe in, then they have been [rightly] guided; but if they turn away, they are only in dissension, and Allah will be sufficient for you against them. And He is the Hearing, the Knowing. 2:137

      [And say, "Ours is] the religion of Allah . And who is better than Allah in [ordaining] religion? And we are worshippers of Him." 2:138

      Say, [O Muhammad], "Do you argue with us about Allah while He is our Lord and your Lord? For us are our deeds, and for you are your deeds. And we are sincere [in deed and intention] to Him." 2:39

      Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants were Jews or Christians? Say, "Are you more knowing or is Allah ?" And who is more unjust than one who conceals a testimony he has from Allah ? And Allah is not unaware of what you do. 2:140

      That is a nation which has passed on. It will have [the consequence of] what it earned, and you will have what you have earned. And you will not be asked about what they used to do. 2:141

      http://quran.com/2

      October 28, 2011 at 7:07 pm |
    • Muneef

      Indeed, We sent down to you the Book for the people in truth. So whoever is guided – it is for [the benefit of] his soul; and whoever goes astray only goes astray to its detriment. And you are not a manager over them. 39:41

      Allah takes the souls at the time of their death, and those that do not die [He takes] during their sleep. Then He keeps those for which He has decreed death and releases the others for a specified term. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought. 39:42

      Or have they taken other than Allah as intercessors? Say, "Even though they do not possess [power over] anything, nor do they reason?" 39:43

      Say, "To Allah belongs [the right to allow] intercession entirely. To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. Then to Him you will be returned." 39:44

      October 28, 2011 at 7:18 pm |
    • Muneef

      And it was already revealed to you and to those before you that if you should associate [anything] with Allah , your work would surely become worthless, and you would surely be among the losers." 39:65

      Rather, worship [only] Allah and be among the grateful. 39:66

      October 28, 2011 at 7:23 pm |
    • AGuest9

      Disgusting! Isn't British society subjected to enough of that nonsense?

      October 28, 2011 at 8:31 pm |
    • Bearer Of Bad News

      Forced to pray. Sounds like the norm. That's how religion continues to thrive. The only reason people continue believing into adulthood is due to fear. They've been indoctrinated and made to believe there's a majestic sky king floating above the clouds watching their every move. They're afraid to break away, afraid to see their religion for what it is. Religion is fear.

      People that turn to religion in adulthood do so because they are afraid. Afraid of being alone, afraid that no one can help them through tough times. For some, stress relief comes in the form of a god. For others it's a cigarette and a beer. At least the cigarette and beer exist.

      October 29, 2011 at 12:01 am |
    • Muneef

      Satan threatens you with poverty and orders you to immorality, while Allah promises you forgiveness from Him and bounty. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing. 2:268

      He gives wisdom to whom He wills, and whoever has been given wisdom has certainly been given much good. And none will remember except those of understanding. 2:269
      ---–

      Indeed, Allah orders justice and good conduct and giving to relatives and forbids immorality and bad conduct and oppression. He admonishes you that perhaps you will be reminded. 16:90
      -----

      Recite, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you of the Book and establish prayer. Indeed, prayer prohibits immorality and wrongdoing, and the remembrance of Allah is greater. And Allah knows that which you do. 29:45
      -----

      O mankind, eat from whatever is on earth [that is] lawful and good and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy. 2:168

      He only orders you to evil and immorality and to say about Allah what you do not know. 2:169
      ----

      O children of Adam, We have bestowed upon you clothing to conceal your private parts and as adornment. But the clothing of righteousness – that is best. That is from the signs of Allah that perhaps they will remember.7:26

      O children of Adam, let not Satan tempt you as he removed your parents from Paradise, stripping them of their clothing to show them their private parts. Indeed, he sees you, he and his tribe, from where you do not see them. Indeed, We have made the devils allies to those who do not believe. 7:27

      And when they commit an immorality, they say, "We found our fathers doing it, and Allah has ordered us to do it." Say, "Indeed, Allah does not order immorality. Do you say about Allah that which you do not know?" 7:28

      Say, [O Muhammad], "My Lord has ordered justice and that you maintain yourselves [in worship of Him] at every place [or time] of prostration, and invoke Him, sincere to Him in religion." Just as He originated you, you will return [to life] – 7:29

      A group [of you] He guided, and a group deserved [to be in] error. Indeed, they had taken the devils as allies instead of Allah while they thought that they were guided. 7:30
      ---

      October 29, 2011 at 6:28 pm |
  9. Jerry

    The followers of King Henry 8th and his butchery and promiscuity, are still trying to shed his legacy. This church has lost it's way and is now being run by the liberals who are shearing the sheep. So sorry to see what they have become.

    October 28, 2011 at 10:58 am |
    • A TRUE Patriot Said

      Give me Liberty (liberals) or give me death. In the light of such patriotism, it would seem those who rail against liberals are nothing more than than those incapable of governing them selves and therefore desire a return to the devine right of Kings. As such, they should deserve to be, the serfs they will become. The rest of us don't fancy such, though at present we seem on the verge of being such; if we don't liberaly stand up for the liberty our forefathers and so many soldiers over history have fought to preserve. Who are the Patriots now?

      October 28, 2011 at 3:48 pm |
    • Bearer Of Bad News

      Liberals aren't exactly the most patriotic bunch.

      http://www.gallup.com/poll/118684/military-veterans-ages-tend-republican.aspx

      For the record, I don't care for either side of the line. But from the outside looking in, it sure does look like democrats tend to be far less interested in supporting the country. Military people historically lean republican. Those are the soldiers who have fought to preserve liberty. All the while, democrats tend to cut military budgets as much as possible.

      October 29, 2011 at 12:12 am |
    • Bear of Bad New

      Supporting the country should never be limited to supporting the military, unless of course you live in a military dictatorship. I hope we aren't there yet.

      Not sure how you are using republican. With a little "r" we are talking about supporting the American and pre-Caeser Roman form of government. If the capital "R", again I would make the point that the military is not the country and wrecking the economy of the country you live in can in no way be seen as patriotic. In fact it used to be a traitorous offense. I'm not sure why it still isn't.

      Liberty and liberal comes from the same root. Note carefully that "liber" is the start of each word. Put "ty" on the end of it and you have a state of being. Put an "al" on it and your have a person living in that state of being. Therefore anyone dying to preserve liberty is also dying to preserve liberals, whether they are intelligent enough to understand that or not.

      No recent poll changes that, though political double speak has done a very good job at convincing a lot of people its different.

      Concerning military budgets, the purpose of any budget is to cut it, in your words "as much as possible", eliminating things like profiteering and fraud. Not more than possible as some seem to have done with the economy causing the mess its in.

      All that being said "God Bless" the troops who as usual are doing their honorable best to protect our liberty, no matter what bad situations we have put them in. May they also find their way home safely to a better land that honors the sacrifices they have made.

      October 30, 2011 at 4:59 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.