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Tebow’s success has commentators, fans discussing God's role in football
December 12th, 2011
06:51 AM ET

Tebow’s success has commentators, fans discussing God's role in football

By Dan Merica, CNN

Washington (CNN) – Tim Tebow led his team to another come-from-behind victory Sunday, this time against the Chicago Bears. He has now won seven out of eight games as the Denver Broncos’ starting quarterback, all the while unabashedly preaching his devout faith in God.

"If you were not a believer coming into this game,” said Fox's Daryl Johnston after the Broncos win, “you have to be now.”

While Tebow’s unexpected success on the field has perplexed football commentators and fans alike, his faith and on-field success have led people to talk about belief, miracles and their impact on the sports world.

Tebow has even convinced some nonbelievers that more is going on than just football. Les Carpenter of Yahoo Sports, after assuring readers that he believes in evolution, dinosaurs and the big bang, writes this:

"But I also believe in Tim Tebow because there is no scientific explanation for what is happening to the Denver Broncos. There is no other plausible way to make sense of these games and the amazing, miraculous way with which they win week after week. … It just happened."

The question is this: Does Tim Tebow’s unexpected success, with his awkward scrambling style and his shotput-esque throwing motion, have something to do with a higher power?

Does Tebow really have God on his side?

The answers to that question run the gamut, and while the general consensus is that something special is happening in Denver, there are just as many who believe Tebow is benefiting from a good team as those who believe God sports the blue and orange on Sunday.

Bronco fans are not shy about discussing faith and their team.

In an article titled “Tim Tebow has the Broncos believing they can’t lose,” Mark Kiszla exhibits an overt belief that Tebow is getting help from upstairs. He writes:

“The magic of Tim Tebow is bigger than football and grows larger with each late-game miracle by the Broncos. Logic fails to explain this no-way-in-heaven, overtime victory against Chicago, unless you consider: Denver played as if victory were preordained.”

Looking for religion in that paragraph (between the uses of miracle, heaven and preordained) doesn’t take reading between the lines. And that wasn’t even as blatant as when Rick Telander of the Chicago (the town Tebow just defeated) Sun-Times appealed to God directly.

“And God, if you’re reading, doing some Monday-morning quarterbacking, would you mind telling the rest of us what’s up with this proselytizing young minister who did nearly a full minute of his famed “Tebow-ing” on the goal line, balancing motionless on one knee, chin on fist like Rodin’s “The Thinker,” while the rest of his team lined up for the opening kickoff?”

Telander even offered to speak in tongues, which surprisingly enough wasn’t the first time that idea came up on Sunday.

Former New York Giant Michael Strahan, when asked about Tebow after the game, jokingly spoke in tongues after the game to show his astonishment at the win.

But not everyone is a believer.

In post-game interviews, Bears players told the Chicago Sun-Times that “It’s not really what he is doing” and that no one was panicked because it was “Tebow Time.”

People online were equally skeptical.

If deciding whether Tebow is God’s quarterback were a football game, Twitter would be the field. Believers and skeptics have used the platform to make their case between a mixture of hash tags and fake accounts.

People tweeted about Chicago’s bad defense and Tebow’s rough three quarters. They also asked why God favors Tebow’s belief, while players on other teams believe in God, too. What makes him special, people questioned?

A fake Jesus Christ account, @Jesus_M_Christ, tweeted: "I think Dad loves @TimTebow more than me."

With all of this talk on Twitter, including from the Tebow doubters, four topics relating to Tebow, including #tebow and #themilehighmessiah, were trending worldwide on Twitter.

But not all football fans are ready to ordain Tebow. The New York Times’ Frank Bruni, who did acknowledge that he was a believer in Tebow, writes about this disbelief:

“Tebow performs a sort of self-righteous bait-and-switch — you come for scrimmages and he subjects you to scriptures — and the displeasure with that is also writ colorfully on the Web, in Tebow-ridiculing Twitter feeds and Facebook pages, one devoted entirely to snapshots through time of Tebow in tears.”

“We’re a team that keeps the faith,” Tebow told Fox sideline reporter Tony Siragusa after Sunday’s game. “We just kept believing.”

Whether it is belief in God, good play or a mixture of both, the quarterback whom the Wall Street Journal has anointed “God’s Quarterback” will continue to start for the Broncos - and fans will certainly be watching.

And maybe that is Tebow’s biggest accomplishment. In a year when the sports world has been rocked by scandals both on and off the field, Tebow has people interested in a positive sports story.

So whether they are watching because they believe in miracles or because they just like football, does it really matter?

- Dan Merica

Filed under: Christianity • Sports

soundoff (2,257 Responses)
  1. Barb Brennan

    Talluhah13, you are correct about the time and place for prayer, here now, there now, everywhere now, whenever you want to pray and wherever you want to pray, that is the time and place, In Jesus' name I pray, Amen!!!!

    December 14, 2011 at 3:51 pm |
    • Sid

      Barb: You do your praying for us, and we'll do your thinking for you.

      No prayer has ever been answered, ever. Now get back to your dead end job and your boring life.

      December 14, 2011 at 3:56 pm |
    • Bob

      Sid, I think you have to not just pray, but also burn a few goats, threaten to do the same to your son, and give up your daughter to prost-itution. Then god will maybe listen up. He's pretty deaf, ya know.

      At least, that's what the nasty book of horrors known as the bible says.

      December 14, 2011 at 4:02 pm |
    • Barb Brennan

      I have job I love, a family that loves me, a church family I wouldn't want to live without, and peace and happiness, and if God took it all away today, I would do exactly what I've been doing, praising Him, because whatever happens in your life it is for the good, even if you can't see it at the time, I praise Him for what He has taken and what He has given, they are both the same thing, for his glory..He doesn't have to save us, He does it because we believe...I know neoither of can understand this because you don't know God, but if you did, you would be talking differently....

      December 14, 2011 at 4:25 pm |
    • Barb Brennan

      God's not deaf Bob, your just blind, my life is far from boring...............

      December 14, 2011 at 4:27 pm |
    • Bob

      Barb, the mere fact that you and I interpret the bible differently is yet more evidence that it isn't a divine work.

      I'll ask you the same question I've asked others of your ilk, always with no valid response thus far: Why were those obviously horrid, very explicit instructions for animal sacrifice ever put in the bible by your god?

      Furthermore, I have a challenge for you. Show that you actually understand the opposing case to your own and are informed about it, since you haven't done so thus far. Read Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris. It's a short book that you can buy cheaply e.g. on Amazon. Pick any one of Sam's arguments, quote it with chapter and page references, and explain why you think it is wrong.

      It's really time that you took the blinders off and read outside your bible. Do you have the courage and forti-tude to take that challenge? Prove it.

      December 15, 2011 at 12:48 pm |
  2. Barb Brennan

    TR6, you can't understand if you don't know who God is, it's truly that simple, and to find out you have to read His word...just like everyone else that found out and believes...

    December 14, 2011 at 12:22 am |
    • Fallacy Spotting 101

      Post by Barb Brennan is the fallacy of circular reasoning.

      http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/

      December 14, 2011 at 1:06 am |
    • fred

      Fallacy
      Let me help you out. I read the Bible and did exactly what Jesus said. I was saved and Jesus gave me a new chance at life. Is that circular?

      December 14, 2011 at 1:10 am |
    • fred

      fallacy 101
      I picked up a manual, I read the manual and did exactly what it said, now my car started running again. Circular reasoning?

      December 14, 2011 at 1:13 am |
    • Ted

      Fred, you ain't saved. You're still here bothering the rest of us. Take a big dose of reality medicine, you moron.

      December 14, 2011 at 1:14 am |
    • fred

      Ted
      Simple question is it circular reasoning?

      December 14, 2011 at 1:15 am |
    • Ted

      fred, I don't answer questions from lowlife like you.

      December 14, 2011 at 1:16 am |
    • fred

      Ted
      Be honest that would be an "I don't know" or "I am afraid this Christian will trap me" if I take a guess.................best just start calling names.

      December 14, 2011 at 1:19 am |
    • HellBent

      fred – not circular reasoning because the effect on your car is measurable. Thus, you are using evidence outside of the manual to show that the manual is correct.

      December 14, 2011 at 1:20 am |
    • fred

      HellBent
      fred the atheist reads Bible, fred follows the exact words of Jesus, fred repents cries for a while, fred is not the same person he was, fred believes in Jesus, years latter fred still a bible thumper and praying for others to have the new same joy he has found. Circular reasoning?

      December 14, 2011 at 1:23 am |
    • HellBent

      yes. How do you plan to measure that fred was divinely impacted? fred may be changed, but you have no evidence that god or the bible changed him. it's an as.sumption on your part – not evidence. big difference.

      December 14, 2011 at 1:31 am |
    • fred

      HellBent
      Does it prove the Bible correct as to steps to change a broken person into a complete (unbroken) person, ignoring the Divine aspect. The same process repeated consistently and varifiable with a 80% success ratio says the Bible method for transforming certain defects in character/personality has a higher rate of success than other methods for the same defect. We can conclude the method is advantageous in changing lives.
      Initially the AA program was based on biblical steps for transforming lives through redemption by Jesus. The Catholic church had issues with non priests converting people with the Bible. The AA program was changed to remove Jesus as God and replaced with a "higher power". Twelve steps were used and even though the church objected to the symbolism of the number 12 removing Jesus made them happy and they allowed the program to continue. Success ratio fell slightly but not as much when the program was forced on offenders by state rather than voluntary.

      December 14, 2011 at 1:50 am |
    • HellBent

      "Does it prove the Bible correct as to steps to change a broken person into a complete (unbroken) person, "

      No. Too many external variables at play. Plus, unlike a car manual that has specific steps for specific issues, the bible has multiple, often contradi.ctory, often unclear, obivously dated, and in nearly all cases translated steps for any range of different problems.

      About the only thing that you can 'prove', though that's probably the wrong word, is that the bible can be a helpful tool to some people when the appropriate parts followed. That hardly makes the bible itself true.

      December 14, 2011 at 2:01 am |
    • Joey

      Once again the religous zelots of the nation have to try to put their "god" into play.

      No god who created this universe cares about what you and me think or cares how Tim Tebow does playing a childs game. Just because TIm Tebow is setting up to make millions of dollars doesn't make a decident of god and allowed to talk to god, to know what god is thinking or to have god do him a favor. Tim Tebow is a human nothing more nothing less, he can't stand the idea of losing so he forgets how terrible he plays in the first three quarters and sets up his kickers to win the game.
      Any god who cares what I think about, or cares about the decision I make and cares about TIm Tebow "winning" is something I dont want to have anything to do with and if you want to exerise your right giving to you by the noble men who created this country you should do it privatly and leave people who are trying to progress this country.

      We should be taxing the church and punishing these child molesters who come out of the church arena

      December 14, 2011 at 2:06 am |
    • fred

      HellBent
      Thanks, I was struggling with why no one would accept the observations of conversions as evidence of some truth or power from the Bible. The many conversions I observered had a common pattern of broken lives being transformed. The more radical the transformation the greater the resulting faith.
      Well, back to the drawing board, there must be some proof out there.

      December 14, 2011 at 2:15 am |
    • fred

      Joey
      Since you brought up child molesters and the church I think that is an argument for why God in the Bible states Hell is reserved for satan and his demons. That kind of demonic act requires some form of justice. If God knows all things then everyone gets what they have coming to them. Regarding Tebow I agree with you that God is not a football fan. I disagree in that God cares about the smallest of matters. I have nothing else to go on but the Bible when it comes to who is God and what does God want. If the Bible is true then we know that the entire Tebow event is allowed so as to reveal the true hearts of men. Win or lose matters not but, does Tebow hold onto his faith when tested by victory / fame /pride or on the flip side loss/failure/rejection/humiliation. All this will now happen since Tebow stepped out in faith. Tebow put his faith out there to be tested and it will. Even the hearts of those on off the field are now being tested, refined, revealed as to true character. That is why we live to reveal our true character. There will be little doubt and no excuse before God what we were and what we did with what we were given.

      December 14, 2011 at 2:31 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Joey, are you sure what Tebow is praying for? For many outside of Faith they might think that victory might be the only thing he is praying for. He could be praying for no one on either side to be injured or killed during the game. There are a host of things that would cause a player to pray on the field.

      December 14, 2011 at 3:13 am |
    • LinCA

      @Fred

      Those that believe in an omnipotent, omnipresent being and buy into the stories and rituals surrounding the worship of this being, are very likely predisposed to attribute a change in their fortune to an intervention of said being. Even those that don't see their fortunes improved are told they are merely being tested by this being.

      I contend that is is more likely that a person's predisposition for beliefs in such creatures, and the beliefs of the people in his or her surrounding, more then anything else will govern these effects.

      If there was any truth or power to be found in the bible, it would be evident to all. But the effect, if any, is highly variable. This is witnessed by quite a few atheists on this board that have shed their religion after reading the same book. Following the exact same procedure and steps but ending up at diametrically opposed results, shows that it is not the bible causing the conversions.

      Furthermore, even if there is a correlation, that doesn't establish causation. Without an independently reviewed, double blind study claiming the bible was the cause is unsupportable.

      December 14, 2011 at 3:53 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      LinCA. The sad thing is that many of those Atheist are often the most rabid and militant in their postings. I do admire and respect that you presented your belief though. More often many of the Atheist points come laced in a tirade of insults and swear words.

      The only thing I would counter on, this late in the night, is that you believe that those who state that they are persons of Faith are predetermined to believe that a event happened or did not happen God had his or her hand in it. Would the reverse be true for those that are not of Faith. There are things that scientist and philosophers are still trying to reach a unanimous conclusion on. Just as quick as one person takes a guess another person will offer theirs. Some times the label of unexplained gets slapped on and all that side has are folks shrugging their shoulders.

      The point is that we each are predetermined to follow our own track and bring our preexisting opinions into it. That simple DeCartes. We will do and believe what we have all ready painted our characters with. This goes for those Faithful who believe God's hand in such miracles and for those who are faithful to their view that there is no God.

      Good post though, L'Chaim 🙂

      December 14, 2011 at 4:19 am |
    • LinCA

      @Mark from Middle River

      Hi Mark,

      You said, "The only thing I would counter on, this late in the night, is that you believe that those who state that they are persons of Faith are predetermined to believe that a event happened or did not happen God had his or her hand in it. Would the reverse be true for those that are not of Faith."

      I said predisposed, not predetermined.

      I am saying that there are people that are more easily convinced by the stories behind the various religions, and are therefore predisposed to believe. I think that whether someone "has faith", or a predisposition to it, also depends on ones education, skills and intelligence. Education isn't limited to formal classroom education in this regard. It encompasses everything someone learns.

      Whether the information one learns shapes him or her, probably depends on the value or weight that is assigned to this information. The weight one assigns to the information depends in great part on who provides it. Or how often, by how many and by whom it is repeated. Someone who grows up in an environment where all the important adults in his or her life, repeat the same story over and over again, may assign a high value to this story and is probably far more likely to believe and repeat it.

      Once someone accepts that these stories are valid, I expect them to be more susceptible to believe similar stories. For that reason I expect conversions from one religion to another to be far more common than from atheism to a religion.

      Of course, once someone has faith, it is only logical to attribute events to the object of their faith. Those that lack this faith, on the other hand, will not attribute anything to this being.

      You said, "There are things that scientist and philosophers are still trying to reach a unanimous conclusion on. Just as quick as one person takes a guess another person will offer theirs. Some times the label of unexplained gets slapped on and all that side has are folks shrugging their shoulders."

      But you'll never find an answer by relying on faith. Faith may guide you in what you elect to study, but only through study will you find answers. And the validity of an answer doesn't rely solely on its correctness. How you get to the answer matters.

      You said, "The point is that we each are predetermined to follow our own track and bring our preexisting opinions into it. That simple DeCartes. We will do and believe what we have all ready painted our characters with. This goes for those Faithful who believe God's hand in such miracles and for those who are faithful to their view that there is no God."
      I'll have to disagree with Descartes, I guess. I don't believe in predetermination without proper evidence in support.

      Cheers.

      December 14, 2011 at 5:12 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Hi LinCA. That is an interesting angle but, it also works the other way around. Soon as you declare that folks are predisposed to believe or not believe your view sorta falls short of entire equation. If I had a child predisposed to be more accepting of Faith then it could follow that as a parent or our household influences would guide him or her in similar beliefs. The same would be true in an Atheist home. The child's openness and readiness to accept what his environment and/or parental lead, the predisposed theory would work equally when the parents declare that beliefs are made up. Your theory I feel would have created more of an equilibrium in society between the population of Atheist and Faithful. With offspring of both not being effected by their parents or societal influences.

      >>>”For that reason I expect conversions from one religion to another to be far more common than from atheism to a religion.”

      Also, the conversion rates I do disagree. The movement between Faiths, I feel is not as great as the movements into and out of the Faiths. More folks turn away from God or turn to God all the time as life's trials and victories occur. The crossing the road to another Faith is more rare. Even with some Faiths is grounds for death. For example, a single church might have new members join every Sunday but, most had a background in another “Christian” church denomination not another Faith. I can not think of the time we had a former Buddhist or Hindu or similar join. This is the “conversions from one religion to another “ theory that you offer, to me, to be in question.

      >>>”Those that lack this faith, on the other hand, will not attribute anything to this being.”

      That is well understood and in some ways I can respect it. Dictionary.com third definition of Faith is:

      “belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit,” ...and

      “belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion"

      I am one of those that believe that Atheist hold just as strong of Faith in what they believe as many of what we would call the Faithful or believers. The problem is that some Atheist expect us to see the "burning bush" or the "seas parting" where as to us Faithful, the signs are as simple unexplainable things. I remember a story a parent told me about their child coming home after a night driving with his or her friends and something wrong with the suspension of the car the next day that should have caused the car to flip over in its un-drivabilty. I feel the Atheist would do an NCIS inspection of the car to find out what held that part into place, but when he or she is finished and can not come to a concrete conclusion ...then what?

      See, I like talking to some of you Atheist, because it does offer another voice into the mixture of life. That many of you are safe and happy with "I do not know", is respectfully amazing to me. Probably as amazing as when those of us who do attribute instances to works of God(s) are to Atheist. Sadly or expectantly not enough folks on either side, are not ready for such mutual respect.

      Again, nice post and much respect.

      L'Chaim

      December 14, 2011 at 1:15 pm |
    • Barb Brennan

      Hey guys, this stopped being about Tebow awhile ago, now it's simply about, does God exist or doesn't He, of course He does and all the nasayers can not compete with the people who know God, not one of them will pick up the Bible and read it, so anything they say about the Bible is made up either by them or from whoever they heard it from. Those of us who know God and know that He can and will change your life if you believe are much happier and don't have hate in our hearts like the people here who are opposing us and calling us names, it doesn't really matter, in the end God will finish what He had started and this is what the nasayers don't want to happen, they don't want to believe that God is real because they would have to change their lives and they are not ready to give up everything the devil is telling them is ok, just pray for them, prayer is powerful and it changes things.. God Bless us all..

      December 14, 2011 at 3:28 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>"Hey guys, this stopped being about Tebow awhile ago, now it's simply about, does God exist or doesn't He"

      Barb, you are new here huh 😀 ..... On the CNN Belief Blog almost every article discussion stays on topic for maybe a hour or less from first posting. Think of here, as the Roman Colosseum in Gladiator. The editors throw us a story and expect us to fight over it. Its sorta like folks already who have issues with each other, are just given reasons to fight.

      Were you here a week ago for the ultimate fight article ... "Muslims are more Religious than other Faiths". That was a gem of an article in that it brought so many folks to be at each others throats.

      ,,,but every now and then you can find respectable dialogue between certain members of the groups and those moments are grand and a blessing. Respectfully, your post, does it foster dialogue or are you like a few such as the one named Reality, not really interesting in engaging the others but just posting to post?

      December 14, 2011 at 3:52 pm |
    • Barb Brennan

      Hey fallacy. can you prove what I say is a fallacy, because I can prove it is not.......................But please let me hear your proof...

      December 14, 2011 at 3:53 pm |
    • Barb Brennan

      Middle of the road, it's sad that you guys are only here to fight, that's not why I'm here, I was sent this link from another believer and started reading and commenting hoping that some sense would come to these people, I am posting because this is how God's word gets out. And as far as Mohammad is concerned, he was a child molester, rapist, murderer, and not a nice guy. Maybe I shouldn't bring that up again since that was last weeks fight, like I said, I'm here to tell the truth about God and how He has changed my life, some peopl do listen, not you guys who want to fight, I do have proof that God exists and it shows in my life and how it has changed since I turned my will over to Him and nol onger believe that by my own power I can do anything, because that's untrue, God gives us the power to do what we do, and He can take it away just as easy. That's all I'm saying, God had a reason for all of this to happen and it wasn't about football, that was just a tool for people to start talking about God, and maybe some would be saved because of it.. I'm not stupid, I know I can't help all you, but God is pleased that I am trying, His will not mine.....Have a good night..

      December 14, 2011 at 5:12 pm |
    • Yo!

      "and all the nasayers can not compete with the people who know God, not one of them will pick up the Bible and read it, "

      That is a lie, many posting here are former Christians. Nice try.

      December 14, 2011 at 5:16 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Hi Barb. It is not a thing of fighting for me unless it is to fight intolerance on both sides. Your desire to bring sence is interesting. While I strongly disagree with many Atheist on their views a bunch, such as LinCA here, appear to have as good of a handle on their views as many of the Faithful.

      Hey Barb, I understand, I can not see any sense to the Atheist view but I can respect that they came to their view of non-Faith as I came to mine, of Faith.

      Also, when faced with someone that does not hold that there is a God, do you think the way forward for them is the route you are taking? Barb, you are on the CNN Belief Blog. This is not some backwoods Christian fridges and it is not some hippy liberal Atheist. Folks here are a bit stronger in their arguments because most quickly find that in here that the ones on the other side have heard all of the arguments, heard all of the spin from both sides. I fear you are showing up with your revival tent and expecting Atheist that have never heard of the Christian Faith and are walking the path of the devil. The same as Atheist who come in and expect to find cloistered Christians who watch Touched by an Angel, Little House on the Prairie and go to bed at 7 pm listening to televangelist on our am transistor radios.

      The fight here Barb is in the middle of all the lone posters, ones that just come to fire off an insult just to watch folks go nuts, I believe this place can be a place in the middle of the shouting and anger to listen and hear the other sides. Kristallnacht, as such needs to be on the minds of folks, I fear until the Lord calls us home. The more you get to know other folks the more you will find in common with them, without having to change your beliefs in the least. But, if you find out, like I did on another thread that a Atheist poster is a huge NASCAR fan, as I am.... its stuff like that which brings peace and harmony Barb. If a bunch of Faithful said they wanted to go down and burn down an Atheist store, its my time here that I could make the argument to one of them that outside of their beliefs there was one Atheist I knew that was a NASCAR fan. Will that stop them, I do not know, will such ever happen .. I do not know but if you desire peace, then these are the steps or pathway to peace.

      >>>”and as far as Mohammad is concerned, he was a child molester, rapist, murderer, and not a nice guy”

      Barb, you need to maybe work on your interfaith views before stepping outside trying to reach the Atheist. Then again I see you and Bob are having a good time between each other. I wonder if either of you really feels the other will just crumble and change his or her views.

      Ecch.... Barb and Bob.... well when yall decide to tie the knot will it be in a church or a banquet hall? I guess the first child will be Adam Darwin,.... or Darwin Adams... 🙂

      December 14, 2011 at 9:20 pm |
    • LinCA

      @Mark from Middle River

      Here are some more thoughts on the matter:

      Regarding the predisposition, I don't consider that entirely an inherent trait. Some of it will be caused by biology, but a large part will also be training and conditioning. I expect the predisposition to believe, to be on a sliding scale. On one side you may those that will believe just about anything (without evidence in support), as long it fits their preexisting views. You would expect to find a lot of conspiracy theorists on this side of the scale. On the other side of the scale, you may find people that can't be convinced of anything without ironclad proof.

      And, of course, someone can be an atheist because of being conditioned that way. I do expect the incidence of atheistic children (over the age where they have the ability to form independent thoughts on the matter) to be higher in homes headed by atheists.

      There will always be individuals (of all ages) that will not question what the people they consider their authorities tell them. These individuals will, most likely, follow the same religion or belief system as their parents.

      Regarding conversion rates, I left out the conversion from religion to atheism out of the picture on purpose. At the risk of trapping myself in the "True Scotsman fallacy", I expect the conversion from religion to atheism to be the higher than the other way around. I also expect it to be more permanent (Once it is belief you lack, you'll never go back).

      I expect relatively high conversion rates between religions simply based on practical matters, such as interfaith marriages, or relocation.

      We are probably talking about pretty small numbers either way. Without any scientific study, I'm only expressing what I would expect, not what I know to be true.

      Regarding atheists "beliefs", I contend there are two distinct but related forms (weak and strong). The strong form is based on a belief there are no gods, the weak form is based on a disbelief in gods.

      Both forms rely on the fact that there is, as of yet, not a single shred of evidence in support of any god. Without evidence, there is no reason to assume there are any gods. The weak form stops there, while the strong form asserts that because there is no evidence, gods don't exist. You'll find that most atheists on this comment board, including me, will claim a disbelief in gods (weak atheism).

      Atheism itself says nothing about the origins of the universe, the world or any of it's inhabitants. Atheism also says nothing about morality or afterlife.

      Cheers

      December 15, 2011 at 4:27 am |
    • LinCA

      @Mark from Middle River

      Here are some more thoughts on the matter:

      Regarding the predisposition, I don't consider that entirely an inherent trait. Some of it will be caused by biology, but a large part will also be training and conditioning. I expect the predisposition to believe, to be on a sliding scale. On one side you may those that will believe just about anything (without evidence in support), as long it fits their preexisting views. You would expect to find a lot of conspiracy theorists on this side of the scale. On the other side of the scale, you may find people that can't be convinced of anything without ironclad proof.

      And, of course, someone can be an atheist because of being conditioned that way. I do expect the incidence of atheistic children (over the age where they have the ability to form independent thoughts on the matter) to be higher in homes headed by atheists.

      There will always be individuals (of all ages) that will not question what the people they consider their authorities tell them. These individuals will, most likely, follow the same religion or belief system as their parents.

      Regarding conversion rates, I left out the conversion from religion to atheism out of the picture on purpose. At the risk of trapping myself in the "True Scotsman fallacy", I expect the conversion from religion to atheism to be the higher than the other way around. I also expect it to be more permanent (Once it is belief you lack, you'll never go back).

      I expect relatively high conversion rates between religions simply based on practical matters, such as interfaith marriages, or relocation.

      We are probably talking about pretty small numbers either way. Without any scientific study, I'm only expressing what I would expect, not what I know to be true.

      Regarding atheists "beliefs", I contend there are two distinct but related forms (weak and strong). The strong form is based on a belief there are no gods, the weak form is based on a disbelief in gods.

      Both forms rely on the fact that there is, as of yet, not a single shred of evidence in support of any god. Without evidence, there is no reason to assume there are any gods. The weak form stops there, while the strong form asserts that because there is no evidence, gods don't exist. You'll find that most atheists on this comment board, including me, will claim a disbelief in gods (weak atheism).

      Atheism itself says nothing about the origins of the universe, the world or any of it's inhabitants. Atheism also says nothing about morality or afterlife.

      Cheers

      December 15, 2011 at 4:30 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Hi LinCa.

      >>>”I don't consider that entirely an inherent trait. Some of it will be caused by biology, but a large part will also be training and conditioning.”

      The willingness to believe anything, is again running you into a revolving door. As much conditioning to believe is equal to the conditioning to not believe. The Atheist headed household will offer up their reasoning for there not to be a God or Gods. Across the street in the home of the Faithful a similar reasoning process would condition the offspring to follow the lead of the parent or parents.

      The age of “independent thought”, I might question. Society often clones, maybe not views from parent to impressionable kids, but the tendency or strength to remain steadfast in convictions. You have adults that might not see eye to eye with their parents but the same force in their arguments. Interestingly enough we often have the “Cats in the Cradle” outcomes and as adults the kids will often not find themselves that far from the tree that birthed them.

      >>>”I expect the conversion from religion to atheism to be the higher than the other way around. I also expect it to be more permanent (Once it is belief you lack, you'll never go back.”

      Truthfully, I disagree. Folks come back to the church, to the temples, the synagogues and the mosques all the time. They leave because they have doubts but often get into the Atheist community and do not find those answers and often something touches their hearts and through the house of worship doors they return. Another thing that is bringing back certain segments is that some folks, such as the LGBT members of society. When they found their lifestyles to be at odds with their home churches many, felt that it was God they were turning again, so they left their home church believing that to be the totality of what is God. Now with churches that are accepting of Alternative lifestyles and Gay and Lesbian houses of worship, those in society who felt their lifestyles stood between them and God have found God again. That is why the churches continue to grow according to the latest survey that a Atheist posted a few months back.

      >>>”Regarding atheists "beliefs", I contend there are two distinct but related forms (weak and strong). The strong form is based on a belief there are no gods, the weak form is based on a disbelief in gods.”

      Yes it does display in a multiple of different forms. The “robust” belief that there is a God or Gods and the “anemic” belief that holds that there is not a God. The point is that both, no matter how each of us attempts to define the other (weak,robust,strong,anemic) … are systems of belief.

      >>>”Both forms rely on the fact that there is, as of yet, not a single shred of evidence in support of any god.”

      ...And the Atheist that make such of a claim have yet to offer any evidence that there is not 🙂 The assertion and the veracity of such claims that can not be proven on either side are what brings things into severe focus. Just as strongly as either side can “assert” their claim they find themselves at a respectable stalemate with only those of the hostile class who refuse to see it. I could easily say just as you have done, and say that Atheism stops short of their reasoning.

      >>>”Atheism itself says nothing about the origins of the universe, the world or any of it's inhabitants. Atheism also says nothing about morality or afterlife.”
      ...Then who in the argument of the Faithful and those not of Faith then truly “stops there”?

      I am interested that you wrote:

      “while the strong form asserts that because there is no evidence, gods don't exist. “

      Then said:

      “You'll find that most atheists on this comment board, including me, will claim a disbelief in gods (weak atheism).”

      To be truthful most folks that post claiming to be Atheist, here on the blog, just want to shout insults and slurs. There are … and this is just a respectful break down... few real Atheist posting here. Maybe I would better say, few moderate Atheist here. I do not see the majority willing to explain or represent the Atheist segment of society. Many I feel are just folks with the desire to alienate and provoke. Not to provoke thought and dialogue as we are doing now, but to provoke flame war responses. Same could be said on the side of the Faithful so, I would be cautious when you attempt to lump yourself with “most” of the Atheist on this blog.

      December 15, 2011 at 12:33 pm |
    • LinCA

      @Mark

      You appear to be missing the distinction between:
      a) Believing there are no gods, and
      b) Not believing there are any gods.

      Version a is the strong form of atheism and asserts there are no gods. This is a statement of belief, because this assertion is made without evidence that proves there are no gods.
      Version b is the weak form of atheism, and is a statement of disbelief. It asserts that there is no reason to believe there are any gods because there is no evidence to support their existence.

      I can't prove there are no gods. I therefor don't dismiss the possibility, however miniscule, that there are any. The complete and utter lack of any evidence in support of the existence of any gods, leads me to disbelieve they exist. When evidence is produced that shows there are gods, I will amend my position.

      I consider the belief in gods to be, in essence, the same as believing in the Tooth Fairy. There is equal evidence to support their existence. Equal evidence means equal merit. The fact that I can't prove that the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist, does little to invalidate the disbelief in it.

      Claims for the existence of a creature, or a phenomenon, have no merit until, at the very least, a theory is presented that does not conflict with any known fact. Even if this theory is available, that in and of itself doesn't do anything to support the existence of the phenomenon described. For this phenomenon to go from "not impossible" to "probable", evidence is required. The amount and quality of the evidence govern how probable the phenomenon is to exist.

      The most rudimentary theory of gods may be consistent with all of the know facts. This pretty much requires that these gods don't, or no longer, interact with our universe. That means that we can't entirely rule out the possibility that they exist. On the other hand, gods that have mutually exclusive traits are impossible to exist. The christian god fits this second category. Mutually exclusive traits make the christian god, as he is most commonly described, impossible to exist.

      December 16, 2011 at 12:56 am |
    • fred

      Yo
      “ idiot and you have no reference point for heaven in eternity it’s a man made concept. DUH! “
      I suppose you think your nothingness concept is not a man made concept? Now, we are in agreement. Your concept of nothingness is a known and proven to be a totally man made concept. This cannot compare with God who is very different than the man made gods such as Zeus etc. I am not aware of any lives being transformed today by Zeus. Being man made when the Apostle Paul explained to the Greeks the difference between their man made god and the God of Abraham the living God they turned away from Zeus and the real.
      In the worse case should you elect to discount the biblical accounts and what you see in creation then you can only say; I know man made up the nothingness concept and since no one can prove God exists or does not exist to my satisfaction we cannot render an opinion.
      “You’re the one with the ego issues dude which is why you spend so much of your time on these boards, it’s just another addiction for you.”
      =>Yo, just being polite by responding to your posts with truth. Like a breath of fresh air wouldn’t you say? I hope you had grand Christmas and enjoy the coming New Year!
      Oh, consider you expect something rather than nothing to happen looking forward. It is called basic instinct and it screams out against the man made concept of nothingness. Understand that the foundation of the American Atheist Association is based on a manmade foundation of nothingness and goes to great lengths to protect its source of funding. Yes, I know sounds a lot like a church. We worship a living God and give out of love. Atheists give to this “church”of Atheists out of anger or fear. Jesus says love casts out fear so do not fear the atheist and do not give into their brainwashing of the youth.

      December 28, 2011 at 10:47 am |
    • Yo!

      “This cannot compare with God who is very different than the man made gods such as Zeus etc. I am not aware of any lives being transformed today by Zeus. Being man made when the Apostle Paul explained to the Greeks the difference between their man made god and the God of Abraham the living God they turned away from Zeus and the real.”

      Yo idiot you have no proof of your god, its completely made up and in your head.

      “In the worse case should you elect to discount the biblical accounts and what you see in creation then you can only say; I know man made up the nothingness concept and since no one can prove God exists or does not exist to my satisfaction we cannot render an opinion.”

      You can’t prove your god exists that’s right, all it’s doing is allowing your addictive behavior to become addicted to something else. You are not solving your personal behavior problem, you just choose a new addiction that is politically correct. Go get some professional help about your imaginary friends.

      “Yo, just being polite by responding to your posts with truth.”

      NO you’re not your responding by quoting a bogus book that has no proof of a god, that is not truth.

      “Oh, consider you expect something rather than nothing to happen looking forward.”

      No, I don’t I live in the moment. You can plan for the future but it doesn’t mean it’s actually going to happen.

      “We worship a living God and give out of love”

      Your prejudice is showing moron. Look at some of the posts by christians on this blog, telling people they are going to burn for eternity, cutting other religions down, that is NOT love. All your religion does is breed hate and intolerance in our society. Atheists love humanity but your prejudice blinds you to this fact. You are nothing more than a delusional fool who’s found a new addiction because your too weak minded to deal with your real behavioral issues.

      January 5, 2012 at 10:54 am |
  3. Joe

    Let's see.. there are millions of people starving to death every day. Wars, famine, plague, and enough evil in this world to fill up hell and then some, and you think God is concerned about a friggen football game? Sad, pathetic, small-minded thinking at best. God is supposedly god of the ENTIRE world, and a stupid football game is less than a foot note compared to what God cares about.

    December 13, 2011 at 6:50 pm |
    • Barb Brennan

      Joe, God does not care about a football game, what He cares about are that people are talking about Him, and because of it some may be saved......

      December 14, 2011 at 12:27 am |
    • Ted

      God clearly doesn't care about our suffering, nor about anything else. God doesn't exist.

      December 14, 2011 at 1:15 am |
    • Barb Brennan

      Ted do you have proof God doesn't exist, because I have proof he does, but please show me your proof and that it's not just something your saying, because If you had proof you might believe! Is that it? do you want proof so you can believe, are you searching? People who say things that they don't know are true are well informed. Many people can help get informed to know the truth.

      December 14, 2011 at 3:58 pm |
    • Chuckles

      Barb!

      Provide the evidence! What is it?! I would LOVE to see it.

      Also, what sort of proof do you expect to see that proves god does not exist? I could probably provide it but a lot of the time believers say it isn't good enough.

      December 14, 2011 at 4:01 pm |
    • Bob

      Yep, Barb. Out with that claimed proof. Put it out or stop bothering us.

      But note that if you succeed in offering valid proof of the existence of the Christian god, you'll be the first person to ever do so. Good fukking luck, stupid.

      December 14, 2011 at 4:08 pm |
    • J.W

      Wow. I would really like to see Bob and Sue get married. I really think they would be a great couple. They could insult each other and call each other stupid all day.

      December 14, 2011 at 4:12 pm |
    • fred

      Chuckles
      You have my attention, I thought you guys could not prove that God does not exist? You choke on a piece of Jesus toast then swallow the theory of evolution.(that verse came out of the e-manuel that arrives with the toaster)

      December 14, 2011 at 4:19 pm |
    • Chuckles

      Well if it isn't my sparring partner fred. Like I said to Barb, tell me what sort of proof you are looking for, yes?

      December 14, 2011 at 4:20 pm |
    • Bob

      J. W, no, we'd unite and call you stupid together. Really fukking stupid. And we would be right to do so.

      December 14, 2011 at 4:23 pm |
    • fred

      Bob
      You and Chuckles are a Menorah tea in this Chirstmas season. There are more of us so look out its quanity over quality.

      December 14, 2011 at 4:29 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @fred

      HA! Well, first, you didn't answer my question. Tell me the proof you expect to be provided to show that god does not exist. Second, this season we don't use menorah's, we use hannukia's, and lastly, you would rather have a shi.tload of crappy people with you instead of good quality people? no wonder christianity is going down hill.

      December 14, 2011 at 4:35 pm |
    • fred

      Chuckles
      Faith provides Christians certainity in that which cannot be seen. You often speak of the present as if you are certain it exists yet everything you know is in the past and the future has not materialized. You cannot even jump ahead one second into the future because it does not yet exist. The moment there is no future the past no longer exists for you (i.e. you claim nothingness at death). Claiming that someone else could somehow benefit in the future from your non existence is nonsense.
      You cannot choose both a meaningful existence and a one dimensional limited time line. Even your own rational process tells you that without “God” or “alternate time line” Chuckles existence is meaningless. Why the need to assign fulfilling meaningful stuff to your time line? Why the constant justification of your existence. I notice other atheists are also obsessed with claiming a meaningful existence, after death as if it matters. It is almost as if we are dealing with a mental problem; the future has not happened and upon death there exists no possibility of a future therefore I am meaningful. Please help me understand how you can claim meaning after death when you say there is no life after death.

      December 14, 2011 at 5:16 pm |
    • J.W

      That is fine Bob. At least people like you probably keep others from becoming atheists, so thank you for that.

      December 14, 2011 at 5:19 pm |
    • Yo!

      “Claiming that someone else could somehow benefit in the future from your non existence is nonsense.”

      You’re twisting again. People in the future benefit in the future on things people do today. Haven’t ever heard pay if forward.

      “You cannot choose both a meaningful existence and a one dimensional limited time line.”

      You’re the one making it one dimensional. Success means making the world a bit better simply because you have lived. That is not one-dimensional, people in the future will benefit from what I am doing for generations to come. That is not meaningless.

      December 14, 2011 at 5:27 pm |
    • fred

      Yo!
      “ People in the future benefit in the future on things people do today. Haven’t ever heard pay if forward.”
      =>Note that I said to YOU. You are now attempting to transfer your value of life to someone else. Whatever value you created by your existence has no value to you, past or future. That is the non existence or nothingness of you.
      Let’s say you transfer atheist values to someone that still lives. That value will be completely extinguished at some point in the timeline. Again eventually you have a meaningless existence in the past and future. You never were.
      “You’re the one making it one dimensional.”
      => Sorry, to inform you but I think you and I are in the same dimension of sight and sound.
      “Success means making the world a bit better simply because you have lived.”
      =>Nice thought but without purpose or meaning after you pass and all your atheist affects pass there is nothingness for each and every person that has been touched by your value upon their respective passing into non existence.
      Any atheists here benefit from Jesus? I would say he did much more than you give him credit for. Those same atheists look forward to the day mention of Jesus is no more. Let me give you your wish and 10,000 years. Exactly what was meaningful from Yo!? You help a old lady across the street then you both die in your sleep. Your past and your future no longer exist for either of you. What you do and what you did is meaningless under your own assumptions not mine.

      December 14, 2011 at 6:20 pm |
    • Yo!

      “Let’s say you transfer atheist values to someone that still lives. That value will be completely extinguished at some point in the timeline. Again eventually you have a meaningless existence in the past and future. You never were.”

      I am not transferring atheism moron, it’s more than that and so what if it has no value to me in the future, it will have value for others. I don’t care if my name doesn’t live in infinity that’s not the point of living in the moment, in this life. You’re the one afraid of nothingness, not me. So I say so what.

      “Sorry, to inform you but I think you and I are in the same dimension of sight and sound.”

      You have to make it that way in your mind because it scares you to think outside the box of religion. You already failed as a human being and needed the crutch of a god to love yourself.

      “Nice thought but without purpose or meaning after you pass and all your atheist affects pass there is nothingness for each and every person that has been touched by your value upon their respective passing into non existence.”

      That’s not true you have no idea what you are talking about, nor do you know what it is that I am passing on, it’s not atheism moron. Again, you’re the one afraid of nonexistence not us, you are scared to live life as a real human being because you failed at it already.

      “Your past and your future no longer exist for either of you. What you do and what you did is meaningless under your own assumptions not mine.”

      LOL! So what. What is sad is you will become nothingness too but you are locked in your religion, not living life to its fullest because you are afraid of people like us because you failed and need the crutch of a god to love yourself. We don’t need that crutch. So what that I am not going to exist in the future, the future will never exist, you only have each moment. What’s sad is how many of those moments you are wasting in front of a computer instead of spending time with your family, being a good husband, a devoted father. That’s pitiful.

      December 14, 2011 at 6:33 pm |
    • fred

      Yo!
      “I am not transferring atheism moron,”
      =>I included atheism so that we stay in the atheist mindset. If we interject Gods into the discussion it is a different issue. In other words if you convert me to Christianity and there is a God then you have indeed done something that would have eternal value and be on a eternal time line.
      “so what if it has no value to me in the future,”
      =>That’s the point. It has no value to you in the past either. Remember you never existed by your definition.
      “ it will have value for others.”
      => That is not possible because eventually all will be as you will be by your own definition. There will be no future existence and no existence in the past for you and everyone that follows you one by one.
      “You’re the one afraid of nothingness”
      =>Sorry, but I am no longer an atheist (actually more agnostic). When I converted I found that faith suddenly replaced nothingness. “Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. “ Hebrews 11 fist paragraph.
      “ You already failed as a human being and needed the crutch of a god to love yourself”
      =>and, here comes the personal attack.
      “do you know what it is that I am passing on, it’s not atheism moron”
      =>That would be noble indeed.
      “ you are scared to live life as a real human being because you failed at it already.”
      =>I am very real and I am thankful for past failure because it brought me broken and contrite to the feet of Jesus where I was given the gift of salvation and forgiveness by Grace.
      “What is sad is you will become nothingness too”
      =>No, God said “for I knew you before I knit your bones together in the womb” When you are give the gift of eternal life through Christ you are a new and suddenly your past, present and eternity is wrapped in the things of God. This is what we were created to be, this is our purpose to be united with Christ for all time.
      “ not living life to its fullest because you are afraid of people like us”
      =>I do not fear for myself I fear for anyone that does not know Jesus, and certainly no fear of man. ”for what does it prophet a man to gain the whole world but forfeit his soul”
      “What’s sad is how many of those moments you are wasting in front of a computer”
      => Not a waste of time, remember I am now on an eternal time line. You remain on this fixed one dimensional time line. I am here to tell people to get off that limited time line with no future and onto the line you were designed for, with purpose and meaning.

      December 14, 2011 at 7:25 pm |
    • Bob

      Barb, I call bullsh!t on your claim. Again, out with that claimed proof. Put it out or stop bothering us.

      December 14, 2011 at 7:33 pm |
    • Yo!

      “you have indeed done something that would have eternal value and be on a eternal time line.”

      You have absolutely no proof it exists and to convince people on no proof is assine. Plus it’s a crutch that makes you not live in this moment.

      “Remember you never existed by your definition.”

      You’re an idiot and delusional since you are conversing with me which proves your point moot. I’ve already had an impact on you, only you’re too dumb to recognize it. LOL!

      “That is not possible because eventually all will be as you will be by your own definition. “

      History has proven you wrong moron, there are things in the past that are still impact us today…you’re typing on your computer proves that. What an idiot.

      “When I converted I found that faith suddenly replaced nothingness.”
      Yes, you are afraid of nothingness after you die, you have addictive behavior tendencies so now you are addicted to a imaginary friend and this blog, I don’t need that crutch to live my life. I am not afraid to die, I lived well through out my entire life. I bet you can’t say the same. 😉
      “and, here comes the personal attack.”

      So, I was right.

      “That would be noble indeed.”

      You still don’t get it, thanks for proving my point.

      “feet of Jesus where I was given the gift of salvation and forgiveness by Grace.”

      His feet are dust already so again you prove how delusional you are, you still need something to be addicted too, you just transferred your poor behavior.

      “No, God said “for I knew you before I knit your bones together in the womb” When you are give the gift of eternal life through Christ you are a new and suddenly your past, present and eternity is wrapped in the things of God. This is what we were created to be, this is our purpose to be united with Christ for all time.”

      A god, never said that a man wrote that to give a crutch to people like you that can’t cope in humanity.

      “I fear for anyone that does not know Jesus, and certainly no fear of man. ”for what does it prophet a man to gain the whole world but forfeit his soul”

      You don’t have a soul; it’s the chemistry in your brain, when you die so cease to exist. It’s that reality that people like you can’t handle. You have no proof of a soul and all the excuses you come up with will be counter with proof of the capacities of our brains.

      “Not a waste of time, remember I am now on an eternal time line. You remain on this fixed one dimensional time line. I am here to tell people to get off that limited time line with no future and onto the line you were designed for, with purpose and meaning.”

      I have found my purpose and meaning in my life, it’s delusional people like you that can’t handle that we don’t need the crutch of a false god to do it. You are not on an eternal guideline; you just need that to cope in your life, I don’t.

      December 15, 2011 at 8:27 am |
    • fred

      Yo
      “You have absolutely no proof it exists”
      =>We have tons of observable evidence. Do not confuse the existence of obvious observable evidence with evidence that does not meet the constraining boundaries of “scientific evidence”. Science will always hit a wall of what is knowable within their self established boundaries.
      “to convince people on no proof is assine.”
      =>Sorry, that has been going on since the earliest cave drawings. You are delusional, deceived or in denial when you reject the fact man can sense the existence of something greater than self which requires worship or at the very least reverence. You should really consider which of the 3D’s have blinded you.
      “Remember you never existed by your definition.”You’re an idiot and delusional since you are conversing with me.
      =>I will agree that I may be an idiot for conversing with you, yet hopeful. You took the quote out of context as we were speaking about “Yo” after you are dead and at home in your eternal nothingness.
      “History has proven you wrong moron, there are things in the past that are still impact us today…you’re typing on your computer proves that. What an idiot.”
      =>As you are typing that is but evidence from a past event you believe on faith is happening in the present, you cannot type in the future or the present, but, I suspect you are speaking of something more basic than that. Even Einstein’s affect on you is meaningless to you after death. Now, if you wish to imply that because of that influence “Yo” was just a bit more fat and happy in his life I am ok with that. But, to tell me you will now export that value received back in time 56 years to Einstein thereby attributing meaning to a nonexistent dead person basking in nothingness is nonsense. Did you hear Einstein whisper hey thanks Yo you made my day?

      December 15, 2011 at 11:20 am |
    • Fallacy Spotting 101

      Prior post by fred is the Argumentum ad Ignorantiam fallacy.

      http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=argumentum_ad_ignorantiam.php

      December 15, 2011 at 11:26 am |
    • Chuckles

      Well fred, looks like you've been busy since the last time I checked this thread.

      Forgive me for going back to your original reply, but there were so many issues there, I need a place to start so why not the post directed at me right?

      "Faith provides Christians certainity in that which cannot be seen" – Just because faith provides the certainty, does not mean it's true at any moment. It just gives you a false sense of security of knowing something without doing the work to actually figure it out. That shouldn't be celebrated, rewarded or even recognized as a good thing.

      "You cannot choose both a meaningful existence and a one dimensional limited time line." freddy boy, why do you have to restrict so many things and tell me what I can and can not think or choose? "The moment there is no future the past no longer exists for you (i.e. you claim nothingness at death)." This is a nonesense claim fred. First of all, there will always be a future because time, as far as we know, does not stop for any reason. It does some crazy things around really really incredibly large objects in space, but on earth time is a constant and always has been. By claiming nothingness after death does nothing to effect overall time, but you are right the past technically no longer exists in the present because it's the past. It doesn't lose its importance just because something existED. These are higher concepts your are clearly having truoble understanding, but I reccomend you don't try to use it to bolster your point. I wouldn't expect you to start in a major league baseball game once you learn the stance on how to bat.

      You also still don't understand that atheists don't try to assign meaning to what happens after they die. That's incidental of the meaning we find during our life. I don't need an outside force to recognize and dictate what is and isn't meaningful and thus can make my life as meaningful as I see fit. Here's a little mental senario for you. I pass along my genes and create a child, or many children, that has it's own meaning right there for me because not only was I able to pass along my genetics, but when someone is born and gains awareness, they also recognize the meaning I had in their creation. They go on, have children of their own who also recognize my importance for their lives. I die, but those children go on to have children of their own, and in turn they have children of their own and so on. My genes, for better or worse, get passed down for generations and soon you can even imagine that if your genetic line survives darwinism and doesn't get cut short, that at one point your genes could be present in someway in a majority of the population. Is that meaningful? Well that depends. I find that kind of cool and there's a fundemental meaning there that doesn't necessarily effect or change anything, but is a fact nonetheless.

      I'm sure most of this was way over you head, but I hope at least a little rubbed off.

      December 15, 2011 at 11:42 am |
    • fred

      Chuckles
      Let us blast the earth with a solar flare and extinguish all matter on earth. You had no past, no present and have no future. You never existed yet you want to claim somehow that you did exist. Unless there is something previously unknown to you outside of your known world that was or becomes aware of life on earth you did not exist. This is what you want me to believe yes?

      December 15, 2011 at 12:27 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Fred

      First and foremost. Blasting the earth with a solar flare would only create a gigantic EMP, it would not kill anyone, other than maybe people in airplanes who would die due to crashing. Just to clear that up, but I think what you are driving at is basically if tomorrow the earth was completely obliterated and all traces of humans were wiped out of the universe, no one and nothng was around to even indicate we existed. If that is the question the answer is, so? What you're basically saying is, your evolutionary need to continue your existance would be cut short if such an event happened and thats a problem and as a human, and part of the human species that has lived because we fight to survive, this would obviously be a bad thing. But if we're all gone, should I really care if on some far off planet an alien named gleepglorp saw earth and knew Chuckles?

      December 15, 2011 at 12:36 pm |
    • fred

      Chuckles
      Was that a yes? Yes, if tomorrow the earth was completely obliterated and all traces of humans were wiped out of the universe Chuckles never existed.

      December 15, 2011 at 1:44 pm |
    • Yo!

      "Yes, if tomorrow the earth was completely obliterated and all traces of humans were wiped out of the universe Chuckles never existed."

      So What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You too will then have never existed, because your belief about a god is all in your head and that too will cease to exist. There are numerous animals that have walked this earth that are completely extinct, what happened to them, did they really cease to exist, many yes, some no, and why is that because it had nothing to do with a god. LMAO! There are other living organism on other planets, are they ceasing to exist? Come on fred...time to use that delusional brain of yours. Where you ever addicted to crack?

      December 15, 2011 at 1:53 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @fred

      Yes, so basically what you're telling me is that you find it very distasteful to live one day and not the next and since other people find this distasteful and have built into all relgiions that you can live after death that it must be true, because the alternative is that one day you'll die for reals.... fred, everyone has a fear of death, a lot of people also have a fear of the boogeyman. Do you think the boogeyman exists because millions of children believe him to?

      December 15, 2011 at 1:56 pm |
    • Yo!

      “We have tons of observable evidence. Do not confuse the existence of obvious observable evidence with evidence that does not meet the constraining boundaries of “scientific evidence”. “

      LMAO! Then your evidience is nonexistent and you are trying to come up with excuses why you can’t prove your god exists. LMAO!

      “You are delusional, deceived or in denial when you reject the fact man can sense the existence of something greater than self which requires worship or at the very least reverence. You should really consider which of the 3D’s have blinded you.”

      LMAO – excuses…excuses…excuses… it’s a chemical reaction in your brain, nothing more.

      “You took the quote out of context as we were speaking about “Yo” after you are dead and at home in your eternal nothingness.”

      Again you’re the one who is afraid of nothingness, but guess what when you’re dead you won’t care. LOL! You need the crutch of a god because you have this great need to feel special but the reality is you’re not. You failed in this life so you need a god to boost your self esteem, but many of us don’t need that crutch.

      “Even Einstein’s affect on you is meaningless to you after death. “

      So what.

      December 15, 2011 at 2:03 pm |
    • fred

      Chuckles
      “Yes,” Yes, if tomorrow the earth was completely obliterated and all traces of humans were wiped out of the universe Chuckles never existed.
      =>Ok, now that is the point where I get lost every time. How can you say you never existed when you know you existed. You must go outside yourself and look back at Chuckles to say “Yes” because that state of nothingness never existed. Your reality after death is the illusion or better yet the deception or blind spot.
      “ people find this distasteful and have built into all relgiions that you can live after death “
      =>Possible but, that is not the issue. You cannot exist and not exist.

      December 15, 2011 at 3:02 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @fred

      You have to really break the habit of claiming something to be fact when it's just your opinion. Other than that you are having a profound misunderstanding here. Schrodinger actually proved that it is actually possible to exist and not exist at the same time, but thats besides the point because my point is that it is possible to not exist in the present and to have exisTED in the past. Remember tenses freddy, tenses like past tense help explain what you apparently are having trouble with. Just because there would be 0 record of me or anything else existing if the earth was obliterated doesn't change the fact, I know I exist and that's all that matters to me.

      If you're still getting tripped up, think of it like this, where were you before you were born? You maintain there was a fred spirit floating around in the ether until god nailed you into a fetus, but do you remember that, do you remember distinctly having a self before being born, or rather even before age 4? What makes you think you can retain your memories or anything else after death? because a book told you, because you heard a voice in your head? Freddy boy, if you get to large and start asking about the universe and my individual effect on it and expect me to come up with some big epiphany of why I am important in the grand scheme of the things, then I'm going to have to disappoint you. The universe is just way too mind bogglingly large to even start to comprehend and work out how a singular person could have any noticeable effect on it whatsoever. I can think about the universe, it's size, it's mysteries and be reverent of that, be in awe at the magnitude and the beauty that my mind can find patterns in seeming chaos, but only a fool would try to model his life based on his role in the general universe. I try to think in the now and I try to think what my effect will be on my family, my friends and my current surroundings. I don't expect that after my death I will have a noticeable effect on anyone around the world, I just hope that after I pass, the legacy I leave behind for the people who care about me is a bit of wisdom or even just a laugh or a fond memory. If you don't think that's worth living for and you would rather believe that you are going to live forever in a magical happy land with the other billions upon billions of people who have ever lived with a god who loves you so much he inflicted "life" on you, be my guest, enjoy living under the tyranny of god.
      You should be aware, surfs back in the days of Feudalism were postively thrilled to be ruled over their leigelord and king. This same king would impose ridiculous laws, taxes, make them live in squalor and mud. Their only source of revenue was being allowed to live in delapidated huts on the kings land in exchange for protection from other lords, though a lot of the times he would never follow through. Now, would you like to live like that?

      December 15, 2011 at 3:16 pm |
    • fred

      Yo!
      “excuses… it’s a chemical reaction in your brain, nothing more.”
      =>wow that is almost as good as the devil made me do it!
      “ You need the crutch of a god because you have this great need to feel special”
      =>No, the Bible is very clear there is nothing in me that could stand before the glory of God. Knowing we are as Paul put it “filthy rags” makes it clear we are only here by the grace of God, nothing in us.
      “You failed in this life so you need a god”
      =>Yes
      “Even Einstein’s affect on you is meaningless to you after death. “ So what.
      =>Yep, “so what” nothing matters. Your choice, be sure to shrug your shoulders when you say so what.

      December 15, 2011 at 3:26 pm |
    • fred

      Chuckles
      Now, that was a helpful example referring to age 0-4. As you look at infant, chuckles, where is your position in time and space? Relationally, where is your position (up looking down, bigger (all encompassing) looking at much smaller)? I sense an all presence looking at little Freddie from a position above. Now, that may be the religion taking its toll on my rationality so just checking where yours is.
      If I understand your viewpoint Chuckles is a glob of cells taking in stimuli. Upon death what happens in glob stays in glob that no longer has awareness of stimuli or the capacity to be aware. Freddie suffers the same fate and both are blown away as dust in the wind.

      December 15, 2011 at 4:29 pm |
    • Yo!

      “wow that is almost as good as the devil made me do it!”

      The devil doesn’t exist it’s just another excuse Christians use to condemn those that disagree with them or use as an excuse for their own personal bad behavior.

      “No, the Bible is very clear there is nothing in me that could stand before the glory of God. Knowing we are as Paul put it “filthy rags” makes it clear we are only here by the grace of God, nothing in us.”

      No you’re not, you are here as just another animal on this planet, gods are created by people who need an explanation for things in this world we don’t yet understand. By believing a deity loves you makes you feel special because you failed as a human being to grasp the understanding of the true meaning of love.
      “Yep, “so what” nothing matters. Your choice, be sure to shrug your shoulders when you say so what.”

      Ok, now you’re being an idiot again, I am saying so what to your stupid analogies of nothingness, there are things in life that matter but it doesn’t take a god for it. You’re the one stuck on the nothingness, so what.

      December 15, 2011 at 6:50 pm |
    • fred

      Yo!
      My sense that life continues and is constantly renewed is reflected in everything I see. The sun comes up every day, a single flower falls to the ground and 100 spring up, life screams out purpose and 80% of mankind anticipates renewal of some nature. I sense no boundaries in my awareness of self (i.e. it is not just between my ears). I am sure there is more to our existence than meets the eye. Giving up this shell my soul resides in will be complete freedom from pain and physical suffering. Beauty, love, peace, wonder, unity and eternal joy await. That is why I cannot grasp nothingness and as we concluded that means your non existence by your own definition.
      I have not heard any reason as to what you base your belief in nothingness upon. You have provided no proof that soul does not exist. Death not life resonates in your objection to Christ and the picture of your end. Let me see if I can summarize; man is nothing more than chemical reactions and organic matter, death is an empty nothingness in a linear time line of non existence. I am confused, is it dark in that place, if it is not warm or cold what is it, without soul, without reverence for anything, down low in a bottomless pit perhaps, forever unable to get out of what am I.

      December 15, 2011 at 8:47 pm |
    • Yo!

      “That is why I cannot grasp nothingness and as we concluded that means your non existence by your own definition.”

      That is why you live in the moment enjoying what life brings; life is actually more profound when you know you will not exist in a short period of time. It makes you appreciate everything around you and those that share it with you. The meaning of the life you live makes you more aware of the love you feel in your brain, being intimate with a partner, smelling the scents of the vegetation around you. Believing you will still experience these things after you are dead is delusional. There is no proof of a soul, no proof of your heaven, no proof of your god. When you step back and understand that your life is a creation of your own brain allows you to understand you control your life all in your head, you are responsible for your choices. Religion allows for excuses, living in the reality of life takes those excuses away, the devil didn’t make you do it, YOU choose to do it. They are slowly proving that the power of our brains could actually heal ourselves if we allow ourselves to tap into it.

      “Death not life resonates in your objection to Christ and the picture of your end.”

      Total crap you have to tell yourself that so you can justify in your brain that a god really exists when it doesn’t and you have NO proof of the existence of a soul I can tell you that the feeling you have are the exact same feeling anyone can have regardless of religious views or not. You don’t need a god to have those feelings.

      “Let me see if I can summarize; man is nothing more than chemical reactions and organic matter, death is an empty nothingness in a linear time line of non existence. “

      Take your silly argument and now apply it to a cow, dog, cat, elephant, since they are made up of all the same things we are. Once you put that piece of dead cow in your mouth and eat it does that cow then become non-existent or something else. LMAO!

      December 16, 2011 at 2:19 pm |
    • fred

      Yo
      So, you see yourself no more than a dog or other animal. This is a key to belief that when you die you end up just like road kill. A complete different mindset from an evolved self awareness that knows something else exists. This you cannot deny something else exists and you feel it. This is why man drew on cave walls too something greater than he. It is the core of worship and reverence. You say life is short, it is, why close off the entire relhm that even cave man reverenced.

      December 17, 2011 at 2:19 pm |
    • Yo!

      “So, you see yourself no more than a dog or other animal. “

      It’s been proven so but yet there is still no proof of your god. Unless of course you have some which you don’t or the world would know about it. LOL!

      “A complete different mindset from an evolved self awareness that knows something else exists. “

      That is a lie. You can have self-awareness without believing in a deity. DUH! Only a delusional mind would believe in something that is not there.

      “This you cannot deny something else exists and you feel it.”

      Again, another lie, what you are feeling is a specific part of your brain, there is no god and anyone who puts themselves in a meditative state can feel the same thing.

      “This is why man drew on cave walls too something greater than he. It is the core of worship and reverence. You say life is short, it is, why close off the entire relhm that even cave man reverenced.”

      DUH! Man’s brain was evolving, learning about its environment, nothing more it had nothing to do with a god.

      December 19, 2011 at 11:02 am |
    • fred

      Yo
      “there is still no proof of your god.”
      => There is proof throughout all recorded history beginning with cave drawings that man can sense God and further worships God. Even today people find God has been there all along. On the flip side there continues a small minority of people that for various reason reject God. No amount of evidence would ever convince such a person. This is why this small minority continues to throw all kinds of objections at God and Christians.
      “ You can have self-awareness without believing in a deity. DUH! Only a delusional mind would believe in something that is not there.”
      =>Deity exists and your belief or non belief has no affect. All of mankind, since recorded history, that worships God is delusional? Tell me what you see at your point of self-awareness as you look at your relative position in time and space. That is real? Self-awareness is not part of the world we can see and touch. It is more like dark matter, is it there or isn’t it?
      “you are feeling is a specific part of your brain, there is no god and anyone who puts themselves in a meditative state can feel the same thing.”
      => Ok, all dark matter is the same throughout the universe? What level of dark are you self-aware of? Doubt your boundaries in awareness equal anyone else.
      “ Man’s brain was evolving, learning about its environment, nothing more it had nothing to do with a god.”
      =>Oh, I see, the more god like we become the less we need God. You have bought the tree of knowledge a deception that was played out thousands of years ago. “eat of it and you will be wise like God”. You may know more about an atom than Adam yet you cannot see the grand design because you are lost in the smallest distraction.

      December 19, 2011 at 12:02 pm |
    • Yo!

      “There is proof throughout all recorded history beginning with cave drawings that man can sense God and further worships God. Even today people find God has been there all along. “

      That is total B S it’s has to do with our brains and understanding we can think, be creative and have an imagination, it doesn’t prove there is a god unless you’re delusional.

      “No amount of evidence would ever convince such a person. This is why this small minority continues to throw all kinds of objections at God and Christians.”

      There is no evidence otherwise you would be shouting it from the rooftops, but you don’t have any and just keep making more and more delusional comments.

      “Deity exists and your belief or non belief has no affect. All of mankind, since recorded history, that worships God is delusional?”

      Yes, they are delusional, especially since throughout history those gods have been proven false, just like yours.

      “Tell me what you see at your point of self-awareness as you look at your relative position in time and space. That is real? Self-awareness is not part of the world we can see and touch. It is more like dark matter, is it there or isn’t it?”

      Wow are your really this stupid in real life, the state or condition of being aware; having knowledge, is self awareness, it has nothing to do with a god, and yes other animals have it too.

      “Ok, all dark matter is the same throughout the universe? What level of dark are you self-aware of? Doubt your boundaries in awareness equal anyone else.”

      More delusional nonsense with no proof of what you are talking about.

      “Oh, I see, the more god like we become the less we need God. You have bought the tree of knowledge a deception that was played out thousands of years ago. “eat of it and you will be wise like God”. You may know more about an atom than Adam yet you cannot see the grand design because you are lost in the smallest distraction.”

      Your delusions continue as you make assumptions about what I write so you call feel justified in your delusional state. Everything is in your head, your brain it has nothing to do with a god. The fact that it can be replicated by those that don’t believe proves it’s all in your head. I can mentally meditate and relax myself and stimulate the same part of my brain that you use to believe in a god. There is no proof of your god but there is proof about the brain.

      December 19, 2011 at 12:14 pm |
    • fred

      Yo!
      “There is proof throughout all recorded history beginning with cave drawings that man can sense God and further worships God. Even today people find God has been there all along. “
      That is total B S it’s has to do with our brains and understanding…
      =>Sorry, if you have proof I will be glad to hear it. Nonsense to say because we are now evolved and smarter god is not worshiped. Look around billions still worship as did cave man.
      “No amount of evidence would ever convince such a person. This is why this small minority continues to throw all kinds of objections at God and Christians.”
      There is no evidence otherwise you would be shouting it from the rooftops
      =>Church bells continue to ring even with all atheists and ACLU lawsuits. The Cross of Christ cannot be missed wherever you go. Your very life is on a thin thread on a planet that hangs in a cold dark universe against all odds. Yet, you and a small minority cannot hear or see. How loud does the shouting need to be?
      “throughout history those gods have been proven false, just like yours.”
      =>It is not so much an image of god worshiped but a heart of worship which is what God looks at. We are talking about mans inclination to worship and fear (hold in awe and fear combined) that is perhaps even in the DNA
      “There is no proof of your god but there is proof about the brain.”
      =>There is evidence of God and proof that your brain demands will not be given. Evidence of God is only made known to those whose hearts are inclined towards God and or drawn towards God. If you want to see God or experience a touch of Deity take a close look at why you really reject God. A good place to start is ask yourself “if this God did exist and the Bible is true what does the condition of my heart reveal”. Take a close note and write it down. They do not necessarily need to be a list of sins just list what comes to mind. Given you said we are born with our own morality this should come easy.

      December 19, 2011 at 1:51 pm |
    • Yo!

      “Sorry, if you have proof I will be glad to hear it. Nonsense to say because we are now evolved and smarter god is not worshiped. Look around billions still worship as did cave man.”

      Does not mean it’s true, more delusion on your part. There are many examples of millions of people being coned into believing things doesn’t make it a fact that it is true. It merely shows how gullible other human beings are, still doesn’t prove it’s true. It’s nothing more than a money making machine.

      “Church bells continue to ring even with all atheists and ACLU lawsuits. The Cross of Christ cannot be missed wherever you go. Your very life is on a thin thread on a planet that hangs in a cold dark universe against all odds. Yet, you and a small minority cannot hear or see. How loud does the shouting need to be?”

      DUH! There are billions of galaxy and planets hanging on “thin threads” doesn’t mean it’s proof of a god. LOL!

      “It is not so much an image of god worshiped but a heart of worship which is what God looks at. We are talking about mans inclination to worship and fear (hold in awe and fear combined) that is perhaps even in the DNA”

      Other animals have these exact inclinations they worship and fear the dominant animal in the group, that is in our DNA but believing in a god is not.

      “There is evidence of God and proof that your brain demands will not be given. Evidence of God is only made known to those whose hearts are inclined towards God and or drawn towards God. If you want to see God or experience a touch of Deity take a close look at why you really reject God. A good place to start is ask yourself “if this God did exist and the Bible is true what does the condition of my heart reveal”. Take a close note and write it down. They do not necessarily need to be a list of sins just list what comes to mind. Given you said we are born with our own morality this should come easy.”

      There is no evidence of your god but there is evidence of your brain causing a release of a chemical to cause the reaction you feel. You don’t even need to believe in a deity to get that sensation. You have to tell yourself that crap so you can feel justified in your need to believe in something that does not exist. It’s people like you that are weak and bringing down our species. You have to keep telling this crap over and over because you have NO proof of the existence of a god.

      December 19, 2011 at 4:23 pm |
    • Yo!

      Got to love the fact that many atheists said go Patriots and they won, your god didn't answer Tebows prayers or any of the other christians posting on this blog. LOL! Go Pats! LOL! 😉

      December 19, 2011 at 4:27 pm |
    • fred

      Yo
      The heart of an atheist was revealed in a shallow victory over Tim Tebow.

      December 19, 2011 at 9:23 pm |
    • Yo!

      "The heart of an atheist was revealed in a shallow victory over Tim Tebow."

      Loser!

      December 20, 2011 at 3:32 pm |
    • fred

      Yo yo yo Merry Cristmass ! Look out, if God is not watching then Santa knows whos naughty or nice.

      December 20, 2011 at 5:47 pm |
    • Yo!

      "Yo yo yo Merry Cristmass ! Look out, if God is not watching then Santa knows whos naughty or nice."

      Loser again, I am just proving to the world you have an ego complex cause of your need to reply.

      You're such a loser.

      December 21, 2011 at 11:26 am |
    • fred

      Yo
      Sorry Yo but you originally replied to my reply thus if your statement is true you are the one with an ego complex. You are in denial on this fact as you are in the assumption that your death is no different than any other organic blob when chemical and electrical functions end. You do not know nothingness since you have no reference point yet, this is where you say you will be. That is like saying upon death we become dark matter. Instinctively you know that something other than dark matter is the residual of your essence yet, nothingness sounds pleasent to you.

      December 21, 2011 at 5:00 pm |
    • Yo!

      “You do not know nothingness since you have no reference point yet, this is where you say you will be.”

      Yo idiot and you have no reference point for heaven in eternity it’s a man made concept. DUH!

      “Instinctively you know that something other than dark matter is the residual of your essence yet, nothingness sounds pleasent to you.”

      It’s called reality moron, something you’re incapable of comprehending so you have to make crap up.

      You’re the one with the ego issues dude which is why you spend so much of your time on these boards, it’s just another addiction for you.

      December 27, 2011 at 6:52 pm |
  4. chiarrai

    Oh My God, please forgive us for being total nut-cases…amen.

    December 13, 2011 at 5:39 pm |
  5. Joshua Hammerman

    See my own comments re. Tebow and Jews – http://www.thejewishweek.com/editorial_opinion/opinion/my_tim_tebow_problem

    December 13, 2011 at 3:23 pm |
  6. dudley0415

    Faith and proof are mutually exclusive. Those who look for the Grand Unified Theory of God and Science will never find it. Science will never Prove God and the faithful will never disprove Science by their faith because the two subjects are inconsistent with each other.

    What kind of foolish person asks science to provide evidence of religion? The same that asks Philosophy to explain Quantum Theory and vice versa. You cannot put up sheet rock with a shovel or dig a hole with a screwdriver, and those who would try just make a mess of it.

    December 13, 2011 at 2:24 pm |
    • Freethinksman

      If religion didn't constantly step into science's boundaries, no one would care. As soon as someone claims that Jesus' dead corpse was reanimated, they're making a scientific claim. As soon as someone argues that evolution can't be true because the Bible contradicts it, the lines between science and religion are blurred. Either science can explain the worrld we live in, or religion can explain it. One fills in knowledge gaps with truth, one manufactures truth to fill knowledge gaps. They may be different in their approach, but only one seeks real truth. The other pays lip service. And if God really had a favorite, wouldn't it obviously be the Packers? 🙂

      December 13, 2011 at 2:47 pm |
  7. M. Meyers

    Shame on athletes that divert God's attention away from children dying of cancer. Does anyone really think that football is that important. Come on folks, get real.

    December 13, 2011 at 2:21 pm |
    • dudley0415

      It's not a contest.

      December 13, 2011 at 2:21 pm |
    • Barb Brennan

      No-one can divert God's attention away from anything, He is God, the ruler of all, He knows all, I know this is hard to comprehend, it was for me too, but God knows Everything that is happening, wether it is good or bad, and many bad things happen, that was the hardest to understand why bad things happen, I am only saying this about MY life so please don't everyone get hysterical, bad things happened in my life to show me better things, how to truly love, how to truly forgive, you don't forget but you can forgive, when I was molested I didn't think I would ever forgive, when I was beat up and knocked to the ground and kicked in the head, I didn't think I would ever be able to forgive, but understanding why these things happened to me brought me to God and to a relationship and understanding I never in my wildest dreams thought I could have. Truly can not trust a human but you can trust God...and the people that talk about all the bad things that happen in life and all that stuff, I know is bad as well, but when you believe your view changes, and if some of these people would at least take a look at themselves as I did and the bad I did the good I did, God was bringing me closer to Him, there's truly noway to explain it, until you have experienced it, and the only way to experience it, is to find out what God wants from each one of us and that is our love and total devotion. Human beings will let you down, but if you have that relationship with God, He will never let you down.. God Bless you...

      December 13, 2011 at 10:57 pm |
    • Ted

      Barb, how can you have a relationship with a guy in the sky that never even answers when you talk to him, and seems to not exist, from all indications.

      Maybe you're used to frigid relationships, but that one with your "god" sure seems pretty darn cold.

      December 14, 2011 at 1:09 am |
    • Barb Brennan

      Ted, you are so lost and I'm taking it that you are young, because your comments show immaturity, but the relationship I'm talking about is a spitual one obviously, and since you were not taught about God, I suggest that if you really want to be able to sound intelligent when you make a comment, read about Him first and then say what you know not what you've heard, there is a difference, and I know you haven't tried to find out for yourself yet! Go to Bible.com and a good Bible study, then you will learn what it means to have a relationship with God, the same way I had to learn it. It takes more than a day to understand who God is and what He wants from us. It will take more likes a yr. God Bless you on your journey..

      December 14, 2011 at 3:35 pm |
    • Bob

      Barb, Ted was on the right track about you and your core temperature. Look, it's absurd and rather insulting that you are telling other people to read the bible, or that we don't understand it. Try me; I probably understand your sick book of horrors bible better than you do. Your sick, sick bible is way overstudied in the west; we get it shoved at us incessantly from not long after birth. Generally, atheists know the bible better than religious folk.

      In turn, you should take off the blinders and do some reading outside of your demented holy book. Try Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris or God is not Great by Christopher Hitchens, to get you off on the right foot.

      December 14, 2011 at 4:16 pm |
  8. dudley0415

    Who was saying that God had deserted Tim (and etc.) when he was considered hopeless as a QB and losing?

    Tim is a Christian and is currently successful in an astounding way. It's noteworthy that commentators rush to say that, effectively, 'Only God can make Tebow play well, since they certainly would have been beaten if not for a miracle.'

    Is Tim blessed by his faith? Certainly. Is God using him as an example? Maybe. Will this last-minute winning style continue forever? Doubtful. Tim probably sees these wins as a gift but surely is not thinking that he is more blessed than others. That kind of thinking is counter to his faith, and he knows that blessings disappear as quickly as they appear.

    December 13, 2011 at 2:15 pm |
  9. charlie

    If Christian A plays for team A, and Christian B plays for team B, and both pray to win the big game,how does God decide who wins?Either way he,s screwing over someone who had faith in him.

    December 13, 2011 at 1:08 pm |
    • Barb Brennan

      It's not about who God will choose to win, that's just silly, don't you guys realize the whole purpose of this entire thing is that people are talking about God more now than in a very long time. It's not about God helping Tebow win, it's about Tebow's faith in God and the now everyone is talking, and some not because God is helping Tebow, but because there are people who want to believe and this is one way for God to bring it out of us..The only way to get to know God is to talk about Him, and the people that are truly searching will listen to the people that make the most sense, the ones that aren't just making angry comments, or tearing other people down, it will be the people God has chosen to help the others find Him. True Faith in God is an awesome thing, Thank you Lord for helping me speak about you with love and not anger and not hatred in my voice, thank you for your mercy on me a sinner, In Jesus' name Amen...

      December 13, 2011 at 11:07 pm |
    • Ted

      Barb, reasoned discussion about god will lead to the conclusion that he doesn't exist, so indeed, that would be a good thing.

      Break the old chains. Be free of religion and dogma.

      December 14, 2011 at 1:12 am |
    • Barb Brennan

      Bob, that was the Old Testmanent, the giving of animal sacrifices, since Jesus came and died for our sins, we no longer have to kill an animal to worship, and obviously if you knew the Bible you would know that. Jesus brought a new covenant between us and God, but I challange you to read the New Testament and then speak on what you know is fact, somehow I don't think you will do it, but I will pray you do.. Your life can't help but change if you truly believe in what God can do for you....Faith without works is dead. You guys are funny, it's just like saying I don't like corn, but you've never tried it..know what your talking about, then if you want to argue with someone instead of just saying silly things, you will be able too...

      December 14, 2011 at 3:44 pm |
  10. sonotso

    Actually God can throw a football further than anyone else. He also prefers organized sports over education and gets really excited about those cheerleaders and throws a heck of a tailgate party. Go God Go,

    December 13, 2011 at 1:05 pm |
    • Barb Brennan

      Hey Sonotso, just wondering where you learned what you said about God, I know the Bible doesn't say that about Him, so can you tell me who taught you those things about God, I'm so sorry you had a bad teacher, but if you would really like to know who God is, you can read His word for yourself to find out the real truth...If you don't own a Bible you can always google it, Bible .com, the New Living Translation is the easiest to understand, King James is a little rough if your just starting out.. God Bless you...

      December 14, 2011 at 12:38 am |
  11. John Richardson

    And how about the Chicago White Sox "winning ugly" in the 1980s? Was God on their side?

    December 13, 2011 at 3:29 am |
    • Nawt Gettingrich

      The fundies say god is on Newt's side and he is a cheater. Par for the of course.

      December 13, 2011 at 7:24 am |
    • Barb Brennan

      It's not about God being in the side of one football team or the other...He's not, He's on the believers side thats all, true believers will be Blessed by God..The media has thrown everythiing way out of proportion as usual, but that's their job. At least my Eagles might get a first round pick next year, lol...

      December 13, 2011 at 11:12 pm |
    • Barb Brennan

      I would say God is on the side of the believer, not a football team..

      December 14, 2011 at 12:39 am |
    • Barb Brennan

      Or any team, baseball, hockey, doesn't matter, God is on the side of the believer, doesn't matter what sport you play....

      December 14, 2011 at 12:41 am |
    • Bob

      God will be on your side if you burn a goat for him At least, that's what the bible says. That god seems to be a pretty nasty dude. Good thing he's total fiction. You'd have to be a total moron to believe the cr@p in the bible.

      December 14, 2011 at 1:43 am |
    • fred

      Bob
      Count me in !

      December 14, 2011 at 1:55 am |
  12. John Richardson

    People should look into the Cardiac Cardinals, ie the the St Louis Cardinals of the early to mid 70s under Don Coryell and their propensity to win close, come from behind games. We've seen this all before, minus the ludicrous religious trappings.

    December 13, 2011 at 3:26 am |
  13. Jimtanker

    OK, then I want all of you fools who believe this carp to take out a second mortgate and bet every cent that you have on Denver winnign the Super Bowl. Right now, place your bets. If you dont then you dont have enough faith in your god and should renounce your religion.

    December 13, 2011 at 3:21 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      What if your from one of the 10-3 team cities, or the 13-0 Packers? Our church on different Sundays the certain choir members have been wearing the local teams jerseys over their choir robes.

      Jim are you expecting all Christians to drop their local teams because of Tebow? Hey, I admire his Faith but he is not the only one praying on the sideline, before the games, after the games. Are all Christians following Notre Dame?

      Question is this... what is he praying for? I am a NASCAR fan and they begin with a prayer just that everyone has a good race and no one gets hurt. For all you know Tebow could just be praying that no one gets their necks snapped during the game.

      December 13, 2011 at 6:21 am |
    • Jimtanker

      I guess that your prayer for NASCAR doesnt work either. Guess Dale didnt have enough faith did he?

      December 13, 2011 at 6:48 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Earnhardt Sr, Jr. or Dale Jarrett? 🙂

      Jim, do you think that us who are the Faithful ....are indestructible? Have you seen the accidents in car racing? Have you seen the accidents Sr had been involved in throughout his career? Heck ... did you see that accident?

      I remember one guy said something that I don't know how I would take it. Dale Sr. was in third place, died blocking Sterling Marlin, who was driving a much faster car than the two lead cars. One of which was his son Dale Jr and the other his personal friend Michael Waltrip. I lost my father back in the 90s and I am sure Dale Jr would rather have his dad back. That his father risked and lost his life so that two people he felt very close to in that race could experience a victory at the 500, something that it took him almost his entire career to win once....I just do not know. I do know that I do hold that there is something after this life and that when you talk about Earnhardt Sr.... how many of us will die on a hospital bed hooked up to multiple machines. How many will die in a ally alone and without a person on the planet to morn them? But, how many of us will die doing something we love and helping love ones in the same process?

      Sigh...sun is coming up. L'Chaim Jim.

      December 13, 2011 at 7:09 am |
    • Jimtanker

      OK, then what good does it do to pray if you can pray your knees bloody and still get blown up?

      Prayer doesn't work and faith is belief without evidence (delusion).

      December 13, 2011 at 7:19 am |
    • Nawt Gettingrich

      I pray that any fundies who ever post here again have to eat soiled undies.

      December 13, 2011 at 7:21 am |
    • Nawt Gettingrich

      The faithful aren't indestructible. They're stupid.

      December 13, 2011 at 7:22 am |
    • Nawt Gettingrich

      Mark re your choir boys all the priests are just expecting them to drop their pants.

      December 13, 2011 at 7:25 am |
    • TruthPrevails

      "Mark from Middle River
      Earnhardt Sr, Jr. or Dale Jarrett?"

      I'm going to safely as.sume he meant Sr, considering Sr is the only dead! We are also huge NASCAR fans and never miss a race. The prayer at the beginning is nothing more than spoken words and we tend to tune it out.

      December 13, 2011 at 7:51 am |
    • Tom Leykis

      Jim, I like you already.

      December 13, 2011 at 9:40 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>”OK, then what good does it do to pray if you can pray your knees bloody and still get blown up? “

      Jim, the race starts with 43 cars. All traveling at almost 200 mph, with the majority of the cars within 10 seconds from first to last. Cars have crashes, bad crashes. In my lifetime I have seen accidents where parts of cars go flying into the fan stands.

      Jim, you are attempting to argue that we who are the Faithful, should expect invulnerability from God or Gods for our worship. Sorta thinking that us Christian NASCAR fans should look only at the Death of one driver.... in a enclosed super speedway with 42 some vehicles speeding past some vehicles crashing into the accident....

      ...that we Faithful should turn our backs on God ..when one driver dies and 42 ..yep 42 make it home?

      Yeah, my Atheist friend...we will ...with much sarcasm... get on that. 🙂

      >>>”I'm going to safely as.sume he meant Sr, considering Sr is the only dead! We are also huge NASCAR fans and never miss a race.”

      🙂 … Well when they say something that is negative or sad and Dale in the same instance …. we could be talking about Dale Sr's death …. or the long agonizing death of Dale Jr's NASCAR career. Its almost like watching Kyle Petty's slow and agonizing end.

      My other Atheist friend … with all these years of Jimmie Johnson's boring robot type driving …. I am sure even you said Thank God for Tony Stewart who is more #3 than the son of #3.

      Nice to meet another NASCAR fan Truth..... rats I thought I was the only one. 🙂

      December 13, 2011 at 12:56 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      Nawt Gettingrich..... Umm... so am I suppose to flame war with you?

      Sorry, there are other Atheist here that I can have decent if not excellent dialogue with. So, whats the point of going back and forth with you?

      L'Chaim

      December 13, 2011 at 1:00 pm |
    • Barb Brennan

      That was good, ...and if people truly believe that God is going to have them win because that's God's goal, that's hysterical...

      December 13, 2011 at 11:15 pm |
    • TruthPrevails

      @Mark: I was happy to see Tony win and not another year of JJ. 73 days to Daytona 🙂

      December 14, 2011 at 4:38 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      For the first time in my life I, a born and bred Blue Oval fan .... was pulling and shouting major'ly in the closing laps for a Chevy driver to win a race/challenge over a Ford driver.

      Somewhere up there Davey Allison is crying. 🙂

      .... 73 days ...what about the Shootout? Geez... We NASCAR fans don't have that much of a off season do we?

      December 14, 2011 at 12:09 pm |
  14. Barb Brennan

    Hey Jimtanker, what exactly should mykids be committed for? Everything he has said is true....prove it's not! and God Bless you 🙂

    December 13, 2011 at 2:33 am |
    • Jimtanker

      I don’t have to prove anything. I'm not the one making an obviously ridiculous claim that has absolutely no evidence in support of it.

      December 13, 2011 at 3:18 am |
    • dudley0415

      Faith and proof are mutually exclusive. Those who look for the Grand Unified Theory of God and Science will never find it. Science will never Prove God and the faithful will never disprove Science with their faith because the two subjects are inconsistent with each other.

      What kind of foolish person asks science to provide evidence of religion? The same that asks Philosophy to explain Quantum Theory and vice versa.

      December 13, 2011 at 2:21 pm |
    • Barb Brennan

      Jimtanker, seriously, if it is so obvious! would that be only obvious to you??? please explain if you can..

      December 14, 2011 at 12:50 am |
  15. Barb Brennan

    Praying for you too tallulah13... 🙂

    December 13, 2011 at 2:16 am |
    • John Richardson

      Why do you enjoy being a sanctimonious jerk so much? You are too unaware of your own motives, I'm sure, to understand that these little "I'm praying for you" lines complete with smiley are anything BUT friendly gestures. So what exactly is it that you feel when you engage in these petty acts of passive aggression that makes you keep coming back for more?

      Clean up your own devils before you worry about Whitney Houston and her voice problems.

      December 13, 2011 at 3:18 am |
    • Tom Leykis

      Barb, take your lips off the crackpipe.

      December 13, 2011 at 9:42 am |
    • Bar Brennan

      Hey John Richardson, every smiley and I'm praying for you is genuine, angry much? I deal with the devil just like you do, I just don't listen to him, you can't hurt my feelings or have people think you who I am, because you don't 🙂 I am a believer in Christ and I know that I will be in heaven in the end! Where will you be? God Bless you John and I AM praying for you, believe it or not!! 🙂

      December 13, 2011 at 9:55 pm |
    • Barb Brennan

      Tom Leykis, that's exactly what brought me to Jesus and what destroyed Whitney's voice, sounds like your angry about something, has someone touched a nerve in you that makes you question what the truth really is, because everyone that is angry and lashing out at the sane people on this blog, are the ones that truly don't understand faith.. I only got my faith through doing drugs (smoking crack) drinking, meth, pot, and then these situations were just to much to bare anylonger and I prayed that God would help me and He did, and the only way that happens is when WE are ready to truly give our will to Him and live by His will, God puts people and situations into our lives to wake us up to show us a better way, after I had lost everything, I gave up trying to do things my way and the world's way and did things God's way, and that is what changed my life, life's experiences and that is the only way I could truthfully say the things I am saying, because I've experienced them for myself, if your not willing to try life another way and to be at peace and completely happy about your love for God and not be afraid to tell anyone that will listen, how you found that faith then life will continue the way it is and you won't find peace and true love in your life. This my friend is how it works, I don't see any of you as my enemy, you can not hurt my feelings, you can call me whatever you like, if that makes you feel better about yourself, but I am secure in where I am in my faith and because of what I have been through, I will never follow the world again, the only one I will follow is Jesus.. Thank you Lord for your ever loving mercy and kindness to this sinner, Amen.... 🙂 God Bless Us All

      December 13, 2011 at 10:26 pm |
    • Barb Brennan

      Hey John, you really shouldn't claim to know who I am, because it's obvious you don't know me, you just don't believe that people can actually have genuine feelings for people they don't know or who try to be there enemy, God says "Love thine enemy", I try to follow Jesus and do things that He would be proud of me for, because He is the only one that matters, everything else will fall into place, if you just believe with everything that your made of, I use to say I believed in God when I was younger, I always believed in God. I just didn't know Him and what His will was for me, now I do and I live and act according to the way God would want me too. I am a sinner just as everyone else is, but I have been forgiven because I asked for forgiveness, to have a relationship with God and to know that there is One, are two totally different things, I am praying for you, no smiley this time, just prayer...God Bless you....

      December 13, 2011 at 10:41 pm |
    • Bob

      Barb, take your sick, cruel religion and your awful bible, and shove them sideways into your aft end.

      December 14, 2011 at 4:24 pm |
  16. Joe Black

    A team in the NFL winning games is not evidence that an invisible imaginary god figment does anything. The simple scientific explanation is that people who can actually be shown to exist perform actions on a football field. Men hold a ball and run w/ it, throw it and catch it. Passes are completed and tackles are made. These actions have been occurring for nearly a century. Nothing unusual or difficult to comprehend.

    Many time before have players made bone head plays to lose games like Barber running out of bounds. Many late game fumbles have lost games. It's nothing new. Or to quote the book of self contradiction, "there is no new thing under the sun". And certainly no rational reason to state this is proof of delusional unsupportable belief in man made god concoctions.

    December 13, 2011 at 1:34 am |
    • Barb Brennan

      Joe Black you are in my prayers and when you get a clue, I will praise God...in the meantime, God Bless you... 🙂

      December 13, 2011 at 2:18 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>"A team in the NFL winning games is not evidence that an invisible imaginary god figment does anything. "

      Question. If Tebow was the quarterback for the Colts (0-13), and he was still praying in the same manner he is.... would that prompt you to alter your thoughts on him? Also, what is he praying for? Are you 100% certain he is praying for a win? For all we know he could be praying for the troops. Heck could be praying for God to watch over his family because he could get injured or killed on the next play.

      For some of the the Faithful, when we pray it is not for personal advancement. I pray for the patients where I work at. Sometimes my Berkley Liberal side sneaks out and I go all "praying for world peace". That is the thing, if you do not know what Tebow is praying for it is just assumption.

      December 13, 2011 at 6:43 am |
  17. Barb Brennan

    That Amen was a good Amen to mykids, and I appreciate it, Thankyou.... 🙂

    December 13, 2011 at 12:59 am |
    • Tom Piper'Sr.

      Thanks to you Barb, may God Bless us ALL.

      December 13, 2011 at 6:19 pm |
  18. Nick

    I am not a Broncos fan, but a recent Tebow fan. Tim is a great young man that I want my nephews to look up to. He is not afraid to speak about his belief in God no matter what the all the critics say about him and try to put him down.

    December 13, 2011 at 12:29 am |
    • tallulah13

      When I think of a football player I would want young people to admire, I think of Pat Tillman. Here was a man who gave up a multi-million dollar football career to defend the country of his birth. That sort of integrity is infinitely more admirable than making a hollow display of personal piety on a football field.

      December 13, 2011 at 12:40 am |
    • Alex

      @tallulah13 You don't know much about Tim beyond the field, do you? Whether you agree with his faith or not, Tim lives a life that is giving to others when he is off the field. I would suggest you look it up. I am not a Christian. But my experience with Tim peripherally while I lived in Gainesville didn't leave me thinking that he was hollow and insincere. I don't understand his piety and maybe you don't either since you term it hollow but it's real and that's who he is off the field. Moreover, he backs up his faith by his actions and his behavior. That's admirable IMO. There's nothing worse than a fake.

      December 13, 2011 at 12:55 am |
    • tallulah13

      Tebow could be the nicest guy in the world, but football is a team sport. His displays disgust me as much as end-zone dances do. The game is about team work, not personal displays. I find it hypocritical and not worth admiring.

      My respect goes to Pat Tillman because when faced with the choice of hard service or material gain and fame, he chose service outside of the spotlight. Should Tebow do that, I would respect him as well.

      December 13, 2011 at 1:07 am |
    • Barb Brennan

      You are so correct Nick, Tebow is a good roll model, unlike nicki minaj and liittle wayne, I would much rather my kids look up to Tebow than them, and they are just the nasty ones that popped into my head to make a point, because of the words they use, I would not want my daughter to speak as nasty as nicki minaj, or my son to refer to women or speak about women the way little wayne does, your actions are what define you...... 🙂

      December 13, 2011 at 2:24 am |
    • John Richardson

      @Barb Of course, you can always dredge up worse role models than Tebow. But there are surely better.

      December 13, 2011 at 3:14 am |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>"the game is about team work, not personal displays."

      It is not? I am all for the as a team philosophy. Thing is that with Peyton Manning out this season and the Colts are 0-13, the "team" argument is showing cracks that I never thought I would see.

      When you go to the Football Hall of fame in Canton, Ohio... are they known that they honor teams or individuals?

      Question....what if the entire team prayed after each touch down? Sorta prayed as a team.... would you still look down at it seeing how it would no longer be one person?

      December 13, 2011 at 6:30 am |
    • TR6

      @Barb Brennan:”a woman with the voice of an angel and she chose to follow the devil with the drugs and God took her voice, what a lesson that was.”

      Explain please why is it that this god of yours who give talent to Tebow and takes it away from Whittney giving the each what “they deserve” also takes away the lives of so many children each day with malaria; but, gives millions of dollars to televangelists

      December 13, 2011 at 2:21 pm |
    • Barb Brennan

      Whatever you say guys, because you know more than God, say what you will, but it's because you don't know what faith is in anything other than yourselves... God Bless you weather you want Him to or not.. 🙂

      December 13, 2011 at 10:01 pm |
    • tallulah13

      @Mark
      If an entire team prayed after touchdowns, I hope they would be penalized for delay of game. There is a time and a place.

      I guess it's a matter of why you watch sports. I enjoy individual efforts, but I enjoy teamwork more. As far as I'm concerned, the Red Wings' Steve Yzerman was the greatest team sport leader of all time, because he led by quiet example. When his coach asked, he changed from offensive phenom to solid all-around player - even if it meant that others got the glory - because it made his team better. That is the sort of athlete I admire, not someone who makes personal displays for team achievements.

      And yeah, Stevie Y was a first ballot Hall of Famer. You don't need to be showy to be valuable to your team and to your sport.

      My question to you Mark, and to everyone who admires Tebow so much for his faith: Would you have the same admiration for an islamic player who made a religious display after every touchdown?

      December 14, 2011 at 2:18 am |
    • LinCA

      tallulah13 said, "When I think of a football player I would want young people to admire, I think of Pat Tillman. Here was a man who gave up a multi-million dollar football career to defend the country of his birth."

      Not only did Pat Tillman give up a multimillion dollar football career to defend his country, he made the ultimate sacrifice doing it.

      December 14, 2011 at 2:57 am |
  19. Jimtanker

    I guess that talent has nothing at all to do with who wins a sporting event. It is the team that prays the hardest and is the most pious that wins the game. Hmmm, who’d a thunk it.

    December 13, 2011 at 12:10 am |
    • Barb Brennan

      Thats a rediculous thing to say, talent IS what wins football games, but that talent is given to you by God and can be taken away from you by God, ergo Whitney Houston, a woman with the voice of an angel and she chose to follow the devil with the drugs and God took her voice, what a lesson that was. I have had lessons like this as well, which is why I believe with everything that I am and that God made me that He is the only right choice, choose well my friends and God Bless you... 🙂

      December 13, 2011 at 2:30 am |
    • Britney Spears

      To name afew.

      December 13, 2011 at 6:03 pm |
  20. myklds

    God has a role for everyone. It takes faith not only to know it but most of all to appreciate it.

    December 12, 2011 at 11:55 pm |
    • Jimtanker

      You should be committed.

      December 13, 2011 at 12:11 am |
    • tallulah13

      No... Religion has a role for all believers, and that role is "Sucka!"

      December 13, 2011 at 12:30 am |
    • Barb Brennan

      Amen! Amen!

      December 13, 2011 at 12:57 am |
    • myklds

      I know and appreciates it coz I have faith.

      December 13, 2011 at 5:57 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.