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Survey: U.S. Protestant pastors reject evolution, split on Earth's age
January 10th, 2012
04:18 PM ET

Survey: U.S. Protestant pastors reject evolution, split on Earth's age

By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor

America’s Protestant pastors overwhelmingly reject the theory of evolution and are evenly split on whether the earth is 6,000 years old, according to a survey released Monday by the Southern Baptist Convention.

When asked if “God used evolution to create people," 73% of pastors disagreed - 64% said they strongly disagreed - compared to 12% who said they agree.

Asked whether the earth is approximately 6,000 years old, 46% agreed, compared to 43% who disagreed.

A movement called Young Earth creationism promotes the 6,000-year-old figure, arguing that it is rooted in the Bible. Scientists say the earth is about 4.5 billion years old.

The Southern Baptist Convention survey, which queried 1,000 American Protestant pastors, also found that 74% believe the biblical Adam and Eve were literal people.

“Recently discussions have pointed to doubts about a literal Adam and Eve, the age of the earth and other origin issues," said Ed Stetzer, president of LifeWay Research, a division of the Southern Baptist Convention, in a report on LifeWay’s site. “But Protestant pastors are overwhelmingly Creationists and believe in a literal Adam and Eve.”

The phone survey was conducted in May 2011, sampling ministers from randomly selected Protestant churches. The survey had a margin of error of plus or minus 3.2 percent, LifeWay said.

A 2010 Gallup poll found that 40% of Americans believe God created humans in their present form, versus 54% who said humans developed over millions of years.

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: Christianity • Science

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soundoff (6,504 Responses)
  1. Rog the inquirer

    Since belief in God requires no proof, and there is no proof for any religious belief system, then either:
    (a) God / Gods do not exist or
    (b) All religions are correct.
    So therefore if God exists, then Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hinduism etc. are all correct, since no religion can prove it is more correct than the others.
    So believe in all of them or none at all. Except Intelligent Design, which is an insult to both science and religion.

    January 19, 2012 at 12:57 pm |
    • Undertoad

      Suppose God exists. Also suppose there is no proof that God exists. You cannot conclude that God exists. You may believe (correctly) that God exists.

      Suppose you believe in a particular religion and only one religion is true. Suppose that there is no proof that any one religion is true. You cannot conclude that your religion is the true religion. You may believe in the true religion.

      January 19, 2012 at 10:00 pm |
  2. Bumper

    Let me correct something I said above. There is evidence of creative design element and God in mathematics and science, but not definitive proof. When you hear about the love of God and deny Him, you are in bad shape. The Gospels are actually designed to harden the hearts of the non-believers and interlopers. This is why Jesus spoke in parables. The parables sounded like gibberish to an interlopers, but revealed an important Spiritual message to followers and future generations who listened with spiritual eyes and ears.
    Based on your responses (not knowing what you would do if God revealed himself to you!?!, seriously, are you nuts!!?!?), you are obviously in a state of spiritual blindness and my words will only push you further into the abyss of uncertainty because you continue to harden your heart and not cling to Christ. You look to the world for a sign of God's existence, but no sign shall be given unto you. For an evil generation seeks a sign, but (in paraphrasing Jesus), NO sign shall be given unto you except the sign of Jonah. If you don't know what that means, look it up. It is the most important event in the history of all of humanity!!!!!!

    January 19, 2012 at 11:22 am |
    • *facepalm*

      " The Gospels are actually designed to harden the hearts of the non-believers and interlopers."

      So your god actually designed his game so that he could more easily punish those that didn't already worship him? Wow, where do I sign up. Your selected deity makes Vlad the Impaler look very tame by comparison.

      January 19, 2012 at 11:25 am |
    • The Return of Bippy, the Lesser Squirrel God of Rapped Polka

      There is NO evidence of God at all. None. Not a shed, not a scrap, nothing, nowhere. Everything operates according to regular rules. There is absolutely no evidence for miracles or other supernatiral phenomenon.

      Don't be a nincompoop and pretend that there is. If there is evidence, provide it. Now. Let's see your "evidence."

      This should be good for a laugh.

      January 19, 2012 at 11:29 am |
    • momoya

      Bumper, let's take a look at your last post.

      1. You're in "bad shape" if you don't agree with the unprovable things that I believe in.
      2. God's word was DESIGNED to be unintelligible to those who don't already believe (Huh?!?)
      3. God's word is gibberish to those who don't know god because they haven't stuck with the gibberish long enough while lying to themselves that it makes some sort of sense with faith that they don't have because they don't yet understand the gibberish. (Really?!)
      4. You don't have magic glasses like me and my buddies; we understand this gibberish even though we know it doesn't make any sense to you because you're spiritually blind– and then we act surprised that it doesn't make sense to you.
      5. You keep hardening your heart because you don't see any sense in the stuff god said specifically designed to not make sense.
      6. Yes, the bible shows all of god you need to know, but it's gibberish to you, but in it there's a sign you should look up and figure out.
      7. Exclamation points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      January 19, 2012 at 11:57 am |
    • Primewonk

      " There is evidence of creative design element and God in mathematics and science, "

      Then by all means post the citations to peer-reviewed math and science journals that describe this.

      January 19, 2012 at 12:29 pm |
    • fred

      facepalm

      God designed a plan so all could make a free choice. That is a perfect plan and based on the responses from the godless on this site they confirm the perfection of that design. You may not like the design but you are not the designer which seems to be a real problem for the godless – they want to be the designer or have a better plan than the designer. How much sense does that really make? Common, if there is a God you actually think you have some helpful advice for him!

      Consider if the earth is the only shot we have to expose our real nature "soul / heart" yours has been exposed as have been many who claim to be Christian yet fail to love others. Tell me how you cannot see the excellency of this design. Tell how better to evolve a people into the Kingdom. You have chosen something other than God to love and express your true inner self. At a minimum you should be thankful God (if he exists or not) has given you this choice. Instead you accuse God and spit in his face. FacePalm have you not read the last momments of Chirst when the one criminal was mocking and taunting God while even the other criminal could see the godless nature of that man. It is not that hard to note something is seriously wrong with your soul what exactly is your excuse?

      January 19, 2012 at 1:12 pm |
    • Beth

      Fred, those are evidence of the present world NOT having been designed. You are really grasping there.

      January 19, 2012 at 7:13 pm |
    • Ummm

      "Fred, those are evidence of the present world NOT having been designed. You are really grasping there."

      That's what so funny about his posts, he grasps all the time, it's hysterical.

      January 19, 2012 at 7:16 pm |
    • fred

      Beth
      UMMM
      Can either of you think of any other way into the Kingdom of God other than the design you are living in? You can't sneek in, reason your way in or have science astroproject you into the kingdom. One way and one way only is that you must have the heart of Christ about your being. Back to the criminal on the cross who only said Jesus you are innocent we deserve this, please remember me. Notice it was not big old baptism or life of purity just a simply request and recognition who Jesus was. Jesus said "today you will be with me in paradise"

      January 19, 2012 at 7:53 pm |
  3. Bumper

    Momoya:

    Are you a woman? Please read the Bible. These are the words of Christ and not my words. God does not do any of the things you describe in your email, but satan does do them. When you live a life that does not glorify God, you are vulnerable to satan. If you live a life as an atheist, God will deny knowing you because you have denied God. This does not mean that God will torture you, but you will be delivered to satan.
    Further, you will never find evidence of God through mathematics or science. Belief in God is a matter of faith by design, not sight. Darwin's theory is false because it fails at the sub microscopic level. The Big Bang more or less proves that the universe was created less than 22 billion years ago. Belief in a creative design is a purely binary decision with true non-Bayesian inputs. Therefore, there is at least 50% that a creative design element exists. This is based on pure science and statistics and has nothing to do with theology. So, even ignoring theological inputs that could increase the probability beyond 50%, you are playing an unfair game of Russian roulette with your lot of eternal life. If you were to die today, you would certainly go to Hell. This is not a threat, it is reality. God is trying to win you over with love, but if you deny His affection, you will go to Hell. It is just that simple. God is a loving God, but does not grade on a curve when you don't honor Him

    January 19, 2012 at 11:06 am |
    • HellBent

      "If you were to die today, you would certainly go to Hell."

      If that's true, your god is not a loving god. Or your god is not all powerful. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

      The rest of your 'logic' is so flawed I don't even know where to begin. Wow.

      January 19, 2012 at 11:13 am |
    • *facepalm*

      "if you deny His affection, you will go to Hell. "

      This makes your god an abusive narcissist. If your god was a human father, he would be behind bars in any civilized society. Pathetic that you would willingly worship such an evil monster.

      January 19, 2012 at 11:16 am |
    • Sue

      Bumper, re "Further, you will never find evidence of God through mathematics or science" -indeed, and nor will you find such evidence anywhere else. The evidence is against the existence of the Christian god that the bible claims, and the bible contradicts itself and is open to wildly differing interpretations. The differing interpretations alone should tell you something about your "omnipotent" creature of your wishful thinking and its galactic marcomm department.

      As for your idiotic request to read the bible, hardly anyone in western society hasn't had that sick book forced on them from early childhood. Most of us have read it and rejected it for good reasons. Stuff your bible, sideways.

      Get over your silly delusions, already.

      January 19, 2012 at 11:19 am |
    • Bumper

      Let me correct something I said above. There is evidence of creative design element and God in mathematics and science, but not definitive proof. When you hear about the love of God and deny Him, you are in bad shape. The Gospels are actually designed to harden the hearts of the non-believers and interlopers. This is why Jesus spoke in parables. The parables sounded like gibberish to an interlopers, but revealed an important Spiritual message to followers and future generations who listened with spiritual eyes and ears.
      Based on your responses (not knowing what you would do if God revealed himself to you!?!, seriously, are you nuts!!?!?), you are obviously in a state of spiritual blindness and my words will only push you further into the abyss of uncertainty because you continue to harden your heart and not cling to Christ. You look to the world for a sign of God's existence, but no sign shall be given unto you. For an evil generation seeks a sign, but (in paraphrasing Jesus), NO sign shall be given unto you except the sign of Jonah. If you don't know what that means, look it up. It is the most important event in the history of all of humanity!!!!!!

      January 19, 2012 at 11:24 am |
    • LinCA

      @Bumper

      You said, "Further, you will never find evidence of God through mathematics or science."
      True. The only thing science is likely to show is that there are no gods. There isn't a single, solitary shred of evidence to support the notion of a god, or gods, including yours.

      You said, "Belief in God is a matter of faith by design, not sight."
      You forgot to add that this faith is solely based on what your parents told you when you were an impressionable child.

      You said, "Darwin's theory is false because it fails at the sub microscopic level. The Big Bang more or less proves that the universe was created less than 22 billion years ago. Belief in a creative design is a purely binary decision with true non-Bayesian inputs. Therefore, there is at least 50% that a creative design element exists. This is based on pure science and statistics and has nothing to do with theology."
      Just because you are ignorant of the science doesn't mean it's not true. The odds are based on the merits of the evidence. Every single piece of evidence in the entire evidentiary regarding the origins of the universe and life, are in support of the scientific explainations of it.

      While the odds of "creative design" in some form are not completely zero, claiming that they are 50% is outrageously ignorant.

      You said, "So, even ignoring theological inputs that could increase the probability beyond 50%, you are playing an unfair game of Russian roulette with your lot of eternal life."
      Theological inputs don't change the odds. You asserted the ridiculous 50% based on your "theological inputs". You don't get to double count them. Even if you double count them (or even triple), they amount to nothing.

      You said, "If you were to die today, you would certainly go to Hell. This is not a threat, it is reality."
      You may not consider that a threat, it certainly isn't "reality". It is your delusion.

      You said, "God is trying to win you over with love, but if you deny His affection, you will go to Hell. It is just that simple. God is a loving God, but does not grade on a curve when you don't honor Him"
      Any god that send his creations to a place where they would suffer for eternity for simply not believing in him/her, is a monster and not worthy of worship.

      By condemning billions of people to suffer in hell, your god is a worse monster than all earthly mass murderers combined.

      January 19, 2012 at 11:26 am |
    • LinCA

      @Bumper

      You said, "Based on your responses (not knowing what you would do if God revealed himself to you!?!, seriously, are you nuts!!?!?), you are obviously in a state of spiritual blindness and my words will only push you further into the abyss of uncertainty because you continue to harden your heart and not cling to Christ."
      I accept, without any reservation, that you truly believe that nonsense, but, just because you believe it, doesn't mean it is true.

      You said, "You look to the world for a sign of God's existence, but no sign shall be given unto you."
      No sign will be given because there is nobody to give it. Without evidence to support the existence of your god it is unreasonable to believe he/she/it exists.

      You said, "It is the most important event in the history of all of humanity!!!!!!"
      I looked for it. It isn't in the Kama Sutra. ;)

      January 19, 2012 at 11:32 am |
    • momoya

      Bumper, what does it matter if I am a woman? An all-powerful god could have chosen to not have a place of never-ending torment.Your god could overpower Satan anytime he wanted to and shut down hell. He obviously wanted such a place. Shame on him. He's a jerk for deciding to have hell and not some other alternative. It takes a sick mind to worship a being who tortures people for eternity.

      Evolution is proved thousands and thousands of times every day by the ongoing work of countless scientists all over the planet. It works on the microscopic level just fine, and it works on a much grander scale than Darwin ever imagined. I can't help it that you don't have enough knowledge in that field.

      You keep mixing up your definitions and your lines of reasoning–so much so that you're not even making a valid point to argue with–you just keep spouting non sequiturs that aren't even sensible enough to be wrong to prove wrong. How do you argue with "spaghetti hormones runs coral beach ball hair" type statements? I'll try to help you just a little bit, but really, you need to be the one to take charge of your own reasoning and you need to be the one to recognize when your logic is jumping all over the place.

      1. There is not a "50/50" chance of their being an intelligent designer because statistics does not make guesses as to what ideological values occur in binary form. It'd be like a person saying that because unicorns don't exist on earth, there's a 50/50 chance that they exist on some other planet. Math is meaningless if you just go around assuming unknown values.

      2. Even if "creative design" were proved, that would not assert a particular god, or even a god at all–it would merely prove a designer who was fond a particular design form. It might rule out certain types of gods, but it wouldn't necessitate a specific one.

      3. You can't claim that some action is not a threat and then use it as if it is one. "Hey Cletus, if you don't wash my car I'm going to cut your hand off... but that's not a threat, it's just what's going to happen... make your choice carefully!!"

      Your god is a horrible being, even if he is going to give you and your pals an easy ride while he tortures everybody else who was born at the wrong time or in the wrong place and so never heard of your jesus. If you're happy being eternally ensconced with a deified Kim Jong Il while everybody else burns, then that's the type of person you are, but I'm not going to say that it's good and loving. You're responsible for your own doublespeak.

      January 19, 2012 at 11:42 am |
    • momoya

      Bumper, I guarantee you. No doubt about it. I have read the bible at least triple the number of times you have. Every book, every chapter, every verse-many, many, many times. If you picked out 200 people who you believe to know the bible very well, I would be shocked if more than one of them knew it better than me. You assume too much and place your beliefs on too high a pedestal.

      January 19, 2012 at 12:04 pm |
    • Primewonk

      " Darwin's theory is false because it fails at the sub microscopic level."

      I've seen you post this dozens of times. Yet you refuse to provide the citations to the peer-reviewed scientific research that supports this contention. Why?

      January 19, 2012 at 12:37 pm |
    • fred

      Sue
      Tell me exactly what proof you have that the Bible is not the best personal guide book on how to live a good life? Before you start to cherry pick the parts atheist cling onto in order to justify their denial you must take the Bible as a whole. Also consider that just as you and I have a different take on the reading of Harry Potter we will also have a different take on the reading of the Bible. Also consider the order of the Bible is such that Jesus came and offered final words and clarity as to the things of God. These revelations were also given to the apostles and then Paul who launched the faith based on that revelation.
      Here is the final law; love God and love your neighbor as yourself. If you wish to close your eyes to God then simply love your neighbor as yourself. If you can love your neighbor as yourself then you already have the heart of God and the mind will eventually follow so don’t sweat the details.

      January 19, 2012 at 1:31 pm |
    • fred

      LinCA
      LinCA
      “Every single piece of evidence in the entire evidentiary regarding the origins of the universe and life, are in support of the scientific explainations of it.”
      =>that is because the scientific method yields results that follow the established rabbit trail that chase after the null hypothesis. Hit a blip and you chase down the next rabbit trail.
      “While the odds of "creative design" in some form are not completely zero, claiming that they are 50% is outrageously ignorant.”
      =>The odds of our very existence can only bring a person with intellectual integrity to the conclusion that it is not reasonable, logical or remotely possible from a purely scientific bases that we could exist. Dance around it all you want but at least be honest and recognize that the probability is 99.99999% that there is an error in your reason, logic or science because we can clearly observe that we are here……….I thinks….
      You LinCA are the one hanging on a tread.

      January 19, 2012 at 1:56 pm |
    • LinCA

      @fred

      You said, "that is because the scientific method yields results that follow the established rabbit trail that chase after the null hypothesis. Hit a blip and you chase down the next rabbit trail."
      But it is evidence that guides the scientific endeavor. It is a fairy tale that guides the theological version.

      You said, "The odds of our very existence can only bring a person with intellectual integrity to the conclusion that it is not reasonable, logical or remotely possible from a purely scientific bases that we could exist. Dance around it all you want but at least be honest and recognize that the probability is 99.99999% that there is an error in your reason, logic or science because we can clearly observe that we are here……….I thinks…."
      The odds of our existence, in the reality as we experience it, are 1. That doesn't mean that if the experiment is repeated, the exact same outcome is guaranteed, but it means that we exist, however unlikely this is to occur. It may have taken billions of iterations to get to the condition that we're in, but the fact that we are here means it happened. We have, as of yet, no way to examine the results of any of the other iterations, or even whether they occurred. We just don't know if the conditions required for a universe that can sustain life are fundamental, merely a result of chance, or even a creator, but that is in no way evidence for one.

      Even the odds that we inhabit the only planet in our universe that can sustain life seems pretty small. A recent study suggest that there is, on average, at least one planet for each star in our galaxy. If that holds true for this and other galaxies, we can expect there to be trillions of planets. Some will inevitably end up having the right set of circumstances to support life.

      But in any case, for the hypothesis of a creator to have any merit, you'll have to provide some evidence that there is such a creature. We've had this discussion before. Your god is equally likely to exist as the Tooth Fairy. Even the childish belief in Santa Claus is far more reasonable than a belief in your god.

      There is no reason to assume any gods exist. It is even irrational to assume yours does (we've had that discussion before, too).

      January 19, 2012 at 3:19 pm |
    • fred

      LinCA
      “But it is evidence that guides the scientific endeavor. It is a fairy tale that guides the theological version”
      =>Yes evidence guides scientific endeavor, however faith guides theological versions. We cannot deny the evidence of science anymore that we can deny the faith of theological versions. You may very well have many reasons or even evidence that the theological versions are wrong yet you cannot deny the existence of faith. Since you like the tooth fiery and Santa over God you will agree that children believe in varying degrees as to their reality. Although not scientific it seems natural to assume that we abandon these beliefs as the result of new experiences that yield a new understanding. Based on this you assume believers will abandon belief in God as new experiences yield a new understanding. Given that the majority of the world’s population believe in the existence of God faith certainly continues beyond childhood and simply matures to recognize childhood fantasy and beliefs separate from residual belief in God. Adults that believe in Santa and the Tooth Fiery is limited to known mental cause.

      “We just don't know if the conditions required for a universe that can sustain life are fundamental, merely a result of chance, or even a creator “
      =>Agreed, we just don’t know and it is by faith that one accepts the creator. The faith of a child.

      January 19, 2012 at 5:17 pm |
    • Really?

      “Given that the majority of the world’s population believe in the existence of God faith certainly continues beyond childhood and simply matures to recognize childhood fantasy and beliefs separate from residual belief in God”
      The thing to remember is that only 30% of the world believes in the Christian God. The other 50% believe in other types of Gods or religions and the other 20% don’t believe there’s a god. The problem with Christianity is if you don’t believe in their God you go to hell. So, basically the other 70% will burn for eternity. LMAO!

      January 19, 2012 at 5:30 pm |
    • fred

      Imposter fred, you change your handle now. I was here long before you were.

      Evolution is obviously true. Bible has so obviously many errors and not even agreement within it. Now advances in healthcare rely on what is found from evolution science. If we rely so same on bible for curing disease and for control virus, you already be dead. So maybe you stick to bible for all healthcare next, no modern medical science, and soon I will not be bothered by your imposting.

      January 19, 2012 at 5:34 pm |
    • fred

      Really?
      Where did you hear that? Been talking to Colin again? Hell is reserved for Satan and his demons and the rest are judged by the perfect love and mercy of Jesus. Who is Jesus, he said he was God ; "I AM the way the truth and the life no one comes to the father but through me" Without going overboard recall that I AM is what God referred to himself as to Moses. Nothing in the Bible says all christians go to heaven or non christians go to hell. Those are denominational twists or mans words not Gods.

      January 19, 2012 at 7:42 pm |
    • LinCA

      @fred

      You said, "We cannot deny the evidence of science anymore that we can deny the faith of theological versions. You may very well have many reasons or even evidence that the theological versions are wrong yet you cannot deny the existence of faith."
      I don't deny the faith of the theological versions. There simply is no reason to believe any of those beliefs are true.

      You said, "Since you like the tooth fiery and Santa over God you will agree that children believe in varying degrees as to their reality. Although not scientific it seems natural to assume that we abandon these beliefs as the result of new experiences that yield a new understanding."
      While they may start to question whether the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus can actually do the things they are alleged to do, I doubt that it triggers the disbelief. Children tend to abandon those beliefs when they are told, often by their friends, that they are false and their parents no longer insist that they are true. That these creatures are said to perform impossible acts helps to shed the belief.

      You said, "Based on this you assume believers will abandon belief in God as new experiences yield a new understanding."
      Not really. I expect reasonable adults to apply the same standards to the belief in gods as they do to belief in the Tooth Fairy.

      You said, "Given that the majority of the world’s population believe in the existence of God faith certainly continues beyond childhood and simply matures to recognize childhood fantasy and beliefs separate from residual belief in God."
      No. The difference is that it isn't challenged in the same way. Most religious parents will continue to reinforce the belief in their gods and even shield their children from "undesirable influences".

      There is no intrinsic belief in gods. It is a learned behavior.

      You said, "Adults that believe in Santa and the Tooth Fiery is limited to known mental cause."
      And how is the inability to shed the beliefs in gods different? Equal evidence means equal merit. Just because people have believed it for centuries, doesn't make it true or valid.

      You said, "... we just don’t know and it is by faith that one accepts the creator. The faith of a child." (emphasis mine)
      Need I say more?

      January 19, 2012 at 9:28 pm |
    • Dr. Gary Hurd

      Actually momoya, Mr. Bummer thinks he is Holy and gifited with Divne command. Any one who disagrees with the Holy Bummer is going to be cast in the bowels of fire.

      January 20, 2012 at 12:18 am |
  4. momoya

    Fred, it's stupid to believe your god is good while he maintains an eternal torture chamber for people who don't stroke his ego in just the right way.

    January 19, 2012 at 8:44 am |
    • Getting hold of God

      I think you're a little confused on the theology of hell. Anyone can choose salvation, but God doesn't force them. However, no one can dictate the terms under which they will be saved. That's already been determined. Ego stroking isn't involved. Love is.

      January 19, 2012 at 11:04 am |
    • HellBent

      @getting a hold of god,

      You can try to spin the theology of hell however you want to. But the fact is that your all powerful creator can choose to stop someone's eternal suffering, but doesn't. When presenting someone with a "choice" and not making clear the terms of the agreement, and then punishing them for getting it wrong – only revealing the actual answer after it's too late – is anything BUT loving.

      If a parent allowed a child to be tortured because the child incorrectly guessed what the parent's unclear rules were, would you call that parent loving, or would you, like most of society, want to lock them up?

      January 19, 2012 at 11:08 am |
    • tallulah13

      That's simply semantics, GHOG. Your god has done nothing to make me love him. He hasn't even shown that he exists. A lot of evil has been done in his name, and his bible is full of atrocities that he has allegedly committed. But if I don't "love" this elusive, evil creature, I will suffer eternal torment. Your god is a bully and your religion is a sham.

      January 19, 2012 at 11:10 am |
    • Getting hold of God

      There's no sin in finding the problem of free will confusing. But it is a binary choice; we either have it, or we dont. if we're free to choose evil, but God then uniformly excuses us from the effects of that choice, then we don't really have free will. The idea of hell is not that it's a place God created to punish the bad people. It is a "place" (metaphorically speaking) where people choose to go.
      You're also free to disbelieve; that's another aspect of free will. All the folks demanding proof of God are really disappointed with the consequences of free will. There's plenty of evidence, but the same folks tend to assume certain premises that make this evidence invalid, which is a circular argument.
      Evil in God's name? Certainly. Also, a heck of a lot of good in God's name. We tend to make a muddle of things in this life, but that's not God's fault. He's done a lot to try and keep us on the right track.
      There's also no sin in finding the "terms" unclear, which is why conscience plays such an important role in salvation.
      This is not a matter of semantics or spin. If you make certain choices, then you will involve yourself in certain consequences. This is true in every aspect of life. There are some Christians who believe in universal salvation. As I understand this position, people are offered a choice at the moment of death, and in that same moment they can clearly see the reality of all this afterlife stuff. No one in that situation would reject heaven and choose hell, the argument goes, so everyone is saved. I really don't know if this is how it works, but I don't want to take the chance, personally.

      January 19, 2012 at 11:50 am |
    • HellBent

      The idea of hell is not that it's a place God created to punish the bad people. It is a "place" (metaphorically speaking) where people choose to go."

      Except that they 'choose' without necessarily knowing all of the rules. Your god isn't exactly clear. Otherwise there probably wouldn't be several thousand different christian denominations. And god probably wouldn't discriminate based on geography (though he does seem to play favorites quite often, so I wouldn't put it past him).

      So, god doesn't give clear rules, but then punishes people for not following them. He doesn't make the rules clear until it's too late. He has the power to reverse this, or to actually make the rules clear, but opts not to. That's abusive and evil. Calling it a "choice" is disingenuous at best and is only convenient because you're arrogant enough to claim to know the Right answer when so many people get it Wrong.

      There's another problem with an omniscient god and free will. if god creates us and is omniscient, then he knows well before he ever creates us what we're going to choose. So, for those of us that will be tortured forever, he creates us knowing that it will happen. That's just sick.

      January 19, 2012 at 11:56 am |
    • LostNomad

      @ HellBent
      You said, "There's another problem with an omniscient god and free will. if god creates us and is omniscient, then he knows well before he ever creates us what we're going to choose. So, for those of us that will be tortured forever, he creates us knowing that it will happen."

      I've been making this argument for a long time. No one has a made a convincing counter yet. I don't want to believe it's true, I want someone to prove me wrong but I'm losing hope.

      January 19, 2012 at 1:35 pm |
    • Trench Wolfhoun

      I think the point I'm missing is... How is God all powerful, all knowing and yet doesn't know the decisions that his creations will make? Or, if he does know the decisions they will make, then you don't really have free will if your path is already determined. If he is all knowing, then when Adam was created (bear with me, here), he knew whether or not YOU, specifically, were going to Hell or not, because he's all knowing. Or... God isn't all that powerful.

      Or... There is no all powerful deity and I really do have my own free will, and the choices I make are mine alone, without fear of eternal damnation for the choice I made in what is basically a brief moment of my entire existance (100 years compared to eternity?)...

      Y'know, whichever sounds right to you.

      January 19, 2012 at 1:39 pm |
    • Getting hold of God

      The rules for being saved are pretty clear. believe in Jesus, love God with your whole heart and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. I'm not saying those things are easy, and certainly it will take some work to get the details right, but I don't see what's unclear.
      The multiplicity of Christian denominations doesn't prove the rules are unclear; it proves that people can't get along - as if we needed proof of that! But most denominations agree that your salvation doesn't depend on which tradition you follow, and that no one is punished for having been born in a place or time that makes the Gospel inaccessible.
      God's omniscience doesn't cancel our free will, so we're still responsible for our own fate. And you assume God doesn't care if we refuse redemption. On the contrary. Anyhow, this objection really devolves to another complaint about free will; if God refused to create people who wouldn't achieve redemption, then free will would not exist. Peace.

      January 19, 2012 at 1:46 pm |
    • Getting hold of God

      @ trench - the juxtaposition of our free will and God's omniscience has puzzled greater minds than yours and mine. Metaphors and analogies kinda help, sometimes, like the analogy ofthe view of an ant on the sidewalk and the view of a person looking down. God is "outside" time (another metaphor), so he sees all events from the same perspective. He celebrates or mourns the fates of all creatures in his eternal now.
      The solution isn't to give up on the whole God question because it involves paradoxes. Life involves paradoxes. At the risk of self-promotion, read my blog, http://www.gettingholdofgod.wordpress.com. I'm a nonjudgmental Christian who used to be an atheist, trying to make sense of it all. Peace.

      January 19, 2012 at 2:22 pm |
    • Getting hold of God

      @ nomad - I would say that you are taking the issue as seriously as it deserves to be taken. A lot of people are very flippant about it. But it's a really important question. I'd be interested in hearing your reply to my comment @trench. Peace.

      January 19, 2012 at 2:27 pm |
    • LostNomad

      @ GHoG

      The last argument that I heard essentially stated that God could know all outcomes without taking an active role in the choices made. My reply was that, yes, I made a choice but that choice was superficial as there was no real alternative. Omniscience is closely linked to predestination, both of which seem to contradict a truly free will. If free will is to truly exist then it seems that omniscience can only exist from moment to moment, choice to choice. If a person really is free to make a choice then omniscience, in the sense of knowing the details of a person's life from beginning to end, doesn't seem possible.

      January 19, 2012 at 3:57 pm |
    • Getting hold of God

      Well-stated. The compatibility of free will and omniscience depends on the existence of two frames of reference. In one of them, events occur sequentially, and we must experience them in that fashion. The omniscience of God involves a frame of reference in which events aren't experienced sequentially. The paradox is that our acts are indeterminate until we act, but God still knows what will happen in the part of our frame of reference that we call "the future." how can this be?
      Consider the paradoxes that occur in quantum physics- action at a distance, the particle/wave behavior of light, etc. These things seem impossible, even self-contradictory, yet they happen. The problem lies in our ability to visualize or conceptualize things that don't "make sense."
      There are some Christian traditions (not mine) that believe in predestination, so at least some people have made sense of this in light of Scripture. But I'm with you, I think, in thinking that there's something wrong with the idea that our actions are predetermined, but we're still responsible for them. Peace

      January 19, 2012 at 4:26 pm |
  5. Milton

    7 in 10 pastors don't believe evolution is real. What a coincidence since 7 in 10 pastors are also hopelessly scientifically illiterate. If they are so anti-science, why don't they just refuse all advances in medicine (one of the many products of science) and let god take care of them. Let's make a deal. Pastors can stay out of science classrooms and atheists will agree not to preach from the pulpit-–oh wait, atheists have NEVER preached from the pulpit.

    January 19, 2012 at 5:45 am |
  6. TZ

    Consider the word ""universe". Uni means one, and verse means a line of metrical writing. The first verse of the Bible says "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1 ESV). Non-believers should come up with a word of their own because every time they say "universe" they are confirming the biblical account of creation.

    January 19, 2012 at 1:07 am |
    • HellBent

      Yup, and if we utter the phrase 'oh my god' we're stating that we actually believe in him and providing conclusive evidence that he is real.

      I'm hoping that you were being facetious with that "argument" of yours.

      January 19, 2012 at 1:16 am |
    • fred

      Wrong You must use the Latin derogitory : it is actually U niver se...........................Atheists "You Never see" the creator. That is the beginning of the problem

      January 19, 2012 at 1:20 am |
    • HellBent

      We never see ... what? God? Yahweh? Allah? Krishna? Zeus? Jesus? Osiris? Dionysus? The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Mermaids?

      There's a lot that we don't see – agreed. Not sure how that's a problem.

      January 19, 2012 at 1:29 am |
    • fred

      The problem is if you looked real close you would see God Yehweh and Jesus are one. Allah is the God they just twisted a few details. Now you are stuck with a few side show man made gods that the Greeks dropped like a hot potato when Paul revealed to them the living God.
      U niver se the truth if you refuse to accept the possibility that we are all sinners in need of redemption.

      January 19, 2012 at 1:52 am |
    • HellBent

      "A few side show gods"

      Likely how the world will view the christian god with time. And yeah, people didn't drop their pagan gods because Paul 'showed them the light'. They dropped them because Constantine made christianity the state religion and killed those who didn't convert. That continued to be the case (kill the heretic!) until fairly recently. It's a rather persuasive tactic, but hardly makes a good case for your god.

      You ignored my inclusion of a Hindu god as well. Convenient. Do you want to tell the three quarters of a billion people that believe in those gods that their gods are "side show gods" Why do you dismiss those gods and as.sume that you have is right?

      January 19, 2012 at 2:04 am |
    • Primewonk

      Except, of course, that your god got that wrong. This universe began expanding 13.7 billion years ago. The earth; however, didn't come together for 9 billion years. Your god messed that up. He also thinks the earth was formed before any stars.

      January 19, 2012 at 8:28 am |
    • fred

      Primewonk
      That is your guess as of today. Never forgot that modern science less than 100 years ago thought the earth was a few million years old then recently the stars were estimated at 25 billion years old then back to 7 billion and now we have been gradually creeping back upwards to 13.7 billion...............oops make that 13.786.

      January 19, 2012 at 2:10 pm |
    • LMAO

      "Never forgot that modern science less than 100 years ago thought the earth was a few million years old then recently the stars were estimated at 25 billion years old then back to 7 billion and now we have been gradually creeping back upwards to 13.7 billion...............oops make that 13.786."

      Which is why the bible is full of crap, your God still got it wrong. ;-) LOL!

      January 19, 2012 at 2:14 pm |
    • SeanNJ

      My favorite way of dealing with all the scientific ignorance is to quote Tommy Lee Jones from the first Men In Black movie:

      Fifteen hundred years ago everybody "knew" the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody "knew" the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you "knew" that humans were alone on this planet.

      Imagine what you'll "know"...tomorrow.

      January 19, 2012 at 2:29 pm |
    • Primewonk

      @ fred – and thanks to what we have learned – because of science – inthe fields of cosmology and radiometric dating, we have pretty good evidence for the age of the universe and the age of the earth.

      Not quite sure why you think science should be static instead of dynamic.

      January 19, 2012 at 2:41 pm |
    • fred

      Primewonk
      Not sure why you think the Bible should be static and not dynamic. We serve a living God not the one the Greeks erected a monument too. Have you not noticed in reading the Bible that God reveals more of his attributes as our culture and intellect allows? Talking serpents were a slam dunk 6,000 years ago the people got it. Life is in the blood and sacrifice is necessary if death from sin is to be overcome. People understood ritual, ceremony and walking over it again and again. God was behind the curtain because man was not ready. Jesus came fully God in all His glory and spoke of love and a temple in our hearts not on a hill, Jesus said no more temple worship it is not a physical realm but spiritual one, Jesus is the perfect lamb and sacrifice all that the symbolic history and culture pointed to, Jesus completed the final atonement it is finished, anyone and everyone that wants to be united with God can be united.

      January 19, 2012 at 3:09 pm |
  7. Bumper

    Momoya:

    Eternal life is guaranteed to any person who accepts Christ and lives according to God's word. This requires one to live a life that glorifies God and not man. It does not matter where they were born. Jesus told his followers to go out and preach the Gospel to all nations (not just the Jews, but all of humanity).

    For God so love the world that he gave his only begotten such that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

    For one day when you pass away, you will stand before the Lord. If you lived a life that glorifies God, you will have eternal life with Christ in Heaven. However, if you continue living a life with either Agnostic or Atheist beliefs, you will certainly go to Hell and burn in a fire that will never be quenched by your desire to change.

    For the world and Darwin's theory shall pass away soon, but God's word will live on forever.

    January 19, 2012 at 12:34 am |
    • Bumper

      Atheism, Agnostic beliefs and world religions are all searches for the truth. Jesus came into the world and said, "I am the truth".

      January 19, 2012 at 12:37 am |
    • mandarax

      I am the truth.

      Wow, that was easy. But since I said it, I guess it's true. I must be magic.

      January 19, 2012 at 12:51 am |
    • tallulah13

      Oh, Bumper. Just because you want to believe something doesn't make it so. There is observable evidence that proves that evolution is undeniably real. There is not a single shred of evidence that any god ever existed. Sorry.

      January 19, 2012 at 1:32 am |
    • momoya

      Bumper, you again confuse knowledge with personal belief. If you want to believe in such a disgusting god that's your business. Go preach your hellfire to people who are swayed by such terroristic threats. You believe because you fear that your god might send you to an eternal lake of fire. If you want to call a hell-creator and hell-sustainer "good" then you've got a weird definition of "good" and you might just be the type of person to fly planes into buildings and call that behavior "good" too.

      January 19, 2012 at 8:36 am |
    • rick

      " Jesus came into the world and said, 'I am the truth'".

      "Marge, I have something none of those other prophets had. I have a really good feeling about this" – Honer Simpson

      January 19, 2012 at 10:59 am |
  8. momoya

    Bumper, I reposted this reply from below so you would not miss it.

    No, you do NOT have your ticket. You BELIEVE that you have your ticket. Nobody knows what comes after death. Nobody. It's the arrogance of the believers that ruins them. When you believe you know "THE TRUTH' and that, even though it can't be proven, you know what's best for everybody, well then you've got fundamentalism and fundamentals to crazy stuff like make war and fly planes into buildings. You know, all for the good of those who don't believe exactly like the fundie.

    You should really think about your arrogance in this matter. You should really think about what god belief you would be all fundamental about had you been born a thousand years ago, or in a country with a different dominant religion. Had you been born in Saudi Arabia you'd be a fanatical muslim claiming to have all the answers. Best.

    January 18, 2012 at 11:18 pm |
    • mandarax

      But, momoya, Christians can't be arrogant. They very humbly believe that they are created in the image of a perfect being and that the entire cosmos was created as a home just for them. Further, this being – the most powerful force in the universe – obsessively worries and fusses over their every thought, action, and prayer. Through those prayers they are in turn able to telepathically influence the actions of this most powerful force in the universe.

      Oh yeah, and they just can't believe how arrogant and full of themselves those atheists and agnostics are.

      January 18, 2012 at 11:42 pm |
    • Bumper

      Momoya:

      Eternal life is guaranteed to any person who accepts Christ and lives according to God's word. This requires one to live a life that glorifies God and not man. It does not matter where they were born. Jesus told his followers to go out and preach the Gospel to all nations (not just the Jews, but all of humanity).

      For God so love the world that he gave his only begotten such that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

      For one day when you pass away, you will stand before the Lord. If you lived a life that glorifies God, you will have eternal life with Christ in Heaven. However, if you continue living a life with either Agnostic or Atheist beliefs, you will certainly go to Hell and burn in a fire that will never be quenched.

      For the world and Darwin's theory shall pass away soon, but God's word will live on forever.

      January 19, 2012 at 12:34 am |
    • tallulah13

      Bumper, your "guarantee" isn't worth the paper it's written on. There is not a single shred of evidence that any god EVER existed. There is not a single shred of evidence for life after death. Sorry.

      January 19, 2012 at 1:34 am |
    • rick

      Bumper: Your god is an impotent relic of Bronze Age sheep sod-o-mizers, and your empty proxy threats laughable. Go home and get your shinebox

      January 19, 2012 at 11:05 am |
    • WASP

      @bumper: ok now without using scripture, prove to me god is real, then prove he is the only god that exists. if you use even one word of scripture your point will not be valid......and i am not going to accept the condesending statement of religious folks of either wait and see when i'm dead, or that the burden of proof falls on me because i have all the proof i need that he doesn't exist.

      January 19, 2012 at 12:35 pm |
  9. Kenrick Benjamin

    PureFury
    Why do you think God asked Adam and Eve to be fruitful, multiply, and (replenish0 the earth?

    January 18, 2012 at 10:00 pm |
    • PureFury

      To start redemptive history. Christ came from the offspring of Eve. Thus if they did not multiply and prosper, Jesus would have never been born and thus their sins would not have been forgiven. However this "what if" scenario is trivial, God's will happens, period. (is the Calvinist in me showing?)

      January 18, 2012 at 10:46 pm |
    • redragon

      Because god liked watching p0rn.

      January 19, 2012 at 1:04 pm |
  10. Patrick

    With due respect, "GOD" and the Universe are one, and the same! When the Earthly creation ceases to exist, the Spirit (electrical being within) returns to the womb of life, the Universe. Just my opinion..

    January 18, 2012 at 9:46 pm |
  11. Cooper

    Fake doctors trolling this article.

    Beware!!

    January 18, 2012 at 9:34 pm |
    • Dr. Gary Hurd

      I recall four people using "doctor" or a variant in the current discussion. I know that at least two of us are Ph.D.s, myself, and "Dr.K." There are also a number of people using pseudonyms who have claimed to be preachers. The problem with the internet is that nearly anyone can claim to be nearly anyone.

      January 18, 2012 at 9:54 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      I got an STD from the U of BS.
      That's Sacred Theology Degree from the University of Baptist Scripture.
      My grandfather built foyers, hence the family name.

      Seriously though – There's a reason the handle is "Doc" and not "Dr." or "Doctor Vestibule, Phd"...

      January 19, 2012 at 12:51 pm |
  12. AvdBerg

    The Bible is the authority and discerner of all things (Hebrews 5:12). The Word of God is God and the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending (John 1:1; Rev. 1:8).

    The Mystery of God begins with the fact that mankind in his natural state is not able to receive the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14). They use little snippets of the Bible of which they have no knowledge.

    This includes all that is to know about Creation and the history of mankind. The following is a copy of the article ‘Creation’ listed on our website http://www.aworlddeceived.ca and is according to the Spirit of truth (John 14:17).

    All of the other pages and articles will explain how and by whom this world has been deceived as confirmed by the Word of God in Revelation 12:9 and they will also explain what mankind must do to be reunited with God and to be able to understand the Bible.

    Creation

    Since mankind is unable to understand the Bible (1 Cor. 2:14) and is separated from God through the power of sin and the spirit of this world, there has been much speculation and misconception about the origin of man as part of God’s Creation.

    We have explained much of the mysteries and the early days of Adam & Eve and where and when they lived, in the article ‘Who is God and who is Satan?’ posted on this website.

    It is well known that Adam & Eve lived approximately 4,000 BC in the area presently called Baghdad and Adam lived to be 930 years of age.

    Most people still believe today that Adam & Eve were the first man and woman that God created, which has proven to be impossible, as mankind in its present form has existed for millions of years.

    Adam was the first Son of God as explained in the article ‘The Mystery of God Revealed’ listed on this website, but Adam and Eve were not the first man and woman as claimed by so many.

    The purpose of this article is to show mankind what took place before the days of Adam & Eve, and how God’s Creation has developed (evolved) for billions of years.

    We are not speaking about evolution as a form of creation, but as a form of development, growth and advancement. This article will also serve as another piece to the puzzle of the Mystery of God (Mark 4:11; 1 Cor. 4:1; 4:1; Eph. 1:9; 3:3; 6:19; 1 Tim. 3:16).

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth (Genesis 1:1). Without giving any recognition of God’s infinite power, mankind started to gain information about two hundred years ago, how this world was created through a theory of natural selection as presented by Charles Darwin.

    Charles Robert Darwin (1809-1882) was an English naturalist who realized and presented compelling evidence that all species of life have evolved over time from common ancestors, through the process he called natural selection.

    The fact that evolution occurs, became accepted by the scientific community and much of the general public in his lifetime, while his theory of natural selection came to be widely seen as the primary explanation of the process of evolution in the 1930s, and now forms the basis of modern evolutionary theory.

    In modified form, Darwin’s scientific discovery is the unifying theory of the life sciences, providing logical explanation for the diversity of life.

    Darwin’s theory was met with derision by the religious communities, especially the Roman Church. They had placed the Bible in the index of forbidden books by the Council of Toledo in 1229 AD and were totally void of any wisdom and knowledge of God as orchestrated by and while under the powers and principalities of this world (Eph. 6:12).

    The primary objective of the Vatican in those days, was to convince every man, woman and child that Adam and Eve were the first man and woman.

    Due to mounting pressures by undisputed scientific evidence, even the Vatican has now changed its stand about the Theory of Evolution advanced by Charles Darwin. Archbishop Gianfranco Ravasi, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said Darwin’s theory, which the Church was against, is compatible with Christianity.

    The acknowledgment of Darwin’s theory, coincides with the holding of a papal-backed conference at the Pontifical Gregorian University to observe the 150th anniversary of Darwin’s 'On the Origin of Species'.

    Now Darwin’s Theory of Evolution has still been in crisis, in light of the tremendous advances science has made in molecular biology, biochemistry and genetics over the past fifty years.

    While Darwin’s evidence brought his Theory of Evolution back to only a certain timeframe of God’s Creation, it is only recently that mankind has been able to unlock the mystery of molecular mechanism.

    A biochemistry professor and a student at the University of Montreal have proposed a new theory how life on earth may have started and found the answer in the ribosome, a relatively large mechanism within the cell that takes RNA (Ribonucleic Acid) instruction and builds proteins.

    Scientists have long wondered how chemicals spontaneously came together to create proteins before life began itself.

    According to the professor, life got started approximately four billion years ago and his theory fills in a critical step in understanding how God’s Creation developed and advanced.

    The following statement by the professor is critical in being able to understand God’s Creation:

    "In the absence of such explanations, some people could imagine unseen forces at work when such complex structures emerge in nature."

    The unseen forces (1 Peter 1:8; 1 John 4:20) refer to God who is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24) in order to be able to come to the acknowledging of the truth and of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ (Col. 2:2).

    The above is what the believers refer to as Creation while many refer to it as evolution as they do not understand and accept God as the creator of all things. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end and the first and the end of all things (Isaiah 40:28; 41:4: 44:6; 48:12; Revelation 1:8,11,17; 21:6; 22:13).

    Now the spirit of this world (Satan) knows that his kingdom will not stand and that it eventually will come to an end (Matthew 12:25,26).

    He also knows that Christ some day will return to set up God’s everlasting Kingdom. Satan’s desire has always been to be equal with God (Isaiah 14:13), and his attempt to know through science (biology, biochemistry and genetics) how life was formed, has been a futile attempt to be equal with God, by trying to disapprove that God created the heaven and the earth (Genesis 1:1).

    In the last decade, the spirit of this world (Satan) has even tried to copy the creation of life by means of what mankind has called ‘cloning’, which is the production of a genetic twin of another organism. But this will prove to be a futile exercise as well.

    Cloning is man’s work and man trying to be god. It is similar to Genetic Engineering or the modifying of biological organisms or genes outside the natural realm of a body, plant or tree.

    Personalized Regenerative Medicine (generating stem cells) falls into the same category. It is all an abomination in God’s eyes.

    The history of mankind and how life was formed and advanced, prior to the days of Adam and Eve (4,000 – 3,070 BC) is irrelevant, as mankind without union with God, was not a living soul (Genesis 2:5).

    All of the other mysteries concerning God’s separation from Adam and Eve and how mankind came to live under the power of sin and the spirit of this world, we have explained in the book 'A World Deceived' and the pages and articles listed on this website.

    Much has happened in the last six thousand years and the days Adam & Eve were called and formed by God (Genesis 2:7) to teach mankind about the wisdom and knowledge of God. However, Adam and Eve failed in their mission and as a result, God separated Himself from them and their offspring (Genesis 6:7).

    In order to keep God’s word alive and to keep the way of the tree of life (Genesis 3:24), God sent others, but mankind has always refused to listen to the prophets, Christ (God in the flesh) whom they crucified, the disciples and all those that followed thereafter as mankind continues to prefer darkness over light (John 3:9).

    It is our hope that through our testimony you will come to understand Christ’s message of repentance and while you may be searching, please remember that there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repents (Luke 15:10).

    And our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that is simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward (2 Cor. 1:12).

    We encourage you to direct any questions to us, and have provided you with a contact page for this purpose.

    Footnote:

    Our Ministry, which is in Christ and according to the Spirit of truth (John 14:17), has reached out to CNN and key contacts for more than two years but they continue to sensationalize news, involving religious doctrines of which they have no knowledge, rather than convey a message of truth. Recently they even arranged to have all of our e-mails blocked to ensure we are no longer able to contact the writers in order to explain their deceptive articles.

    The article about Tim Tebow is a good example how CNN sensationalizes topics of which they have no knowledge and deceive all the people. Tim Tebow is not a Christian and follower of Christ but rather a false Christ (Matthew 24:24).

    The purpose of our postings is to keep straight the way of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

    For a better understanding of the history of Adam & Eve, the story of Noah and what it means to be a Christian, we invite you to read the articles ‘Who is God and who is Satan?’ and ‘Can Christianity or any Other Religion Save You’ listed on our website http://www.aworlddeceived.ca

    To give people a better understanding of the principalities and destructive forces (Eph. 6:12) that control the Media, US Politics and the issues that divide this world, we invite you to read the articles ‘CNN Belief Blog ~ Sign of the Times’ and ‘Influence of the Media’.

    The following is an excerpt from the article.

    “On the CNN Belief Blog some people speak of the interpretation of the Word of God but as long as mankind remains separated from God, they will not be able to understand the Bible as it is spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14). The Bible specifically teaches in 2 Peter 1:20 that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.”

    All of the other pages and articles will explain how and by whom this world has been deceived as confirmed by the Word of God in Revelation 12:9 and they will also explain what mankind must do to be reunited with God and to be able to understand the Bible.

    He that is spiritual judgeth (discerneth) all things, yet he himself is judged of no man (1 Cor. 2:15; 14:37; Proverbs 28:5; Gal. 6:1; Col. 1:9; John 3:8; 5:30; 8:15; 16:8-11).

    Seek, and ye will find (Matthew 7:7).

    http://WWW.AWORLDDECEIVED.CA

    January 18, 2012 at 9:09 pm |
    • Nine changes things. The Frequency is Nine!

      The frequency is nine.
      The frequency is nine.
      The frequency is nine.

      January 18, 2012 at 9:17 pm |
    • momoya

      A rude post of pure drivel, AvdBerg. What would jesus do, eh?

      January 18, 2012 at 9:50 pm |
    • AvdBerg

      momoya

      Christ would say (as we do): ye must repent and turn from darkness to lgiht and from the power of Satan (whose spirit you are of) unto God (Acts 26:18).

      http://WWW.AWORLDDECEIVED.CA

      January 18, 2012 at 11:53 pm |
    • WASP

      aveburg: so off key; you just hacked up the bible and interrpted it how you saw fit for your goals. i usually start on page one of a book and read until the last page.......so start from genesis and read to revelations,it's the word of god so you have to read it how god wrote it. page by page, otherwise your stating either you know better then god, or god is confused and can't keep a single train of thought. plus you put words in gods' mouth, there is no passage that said he made any other humans before adam and eve. so fail on that point.

      1:26 And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

      now remember the division of the god, into the holy ghost, jesus and god hasn't happened yet due to adam and eve hasn't sinned yet. so where is this plural coming from? hmmmmmm

      January 19, 2012 at 7:21 am |
    • momoya

      AvdBerg, your post was rude because of its length and impersonal nature. Regardless of whether what you say is true, your post was spam. Your post was drivel because it makes nonsequitur assertions that any other christian could deny with a different interpretation of scripture. If you had any words with real power and consequence you would keep it short and effective.

      January 19, 2012 at 8:40 am |
    • AvdBerg

      momoya

      The "so-called" Christians you refer to serve an image of a fasle god and a false Christ (Matthew 24:24). If you wonder how this whole world has been deceived please read 2 Cor. 11:13-15.

      http://WWW.AWORLDDECEIVED.CA

      January 19, 2012 at 9:54 am |
    • ......

      CULT ALERT – AvdBerg is a LIAR and a Troll on this site click the report abuse link to get rid of this TROLL!

      January 19, 2012 at 3:18 pm |
    • Avdberg

      Make sure to visit this site for God's real truth. http://www.gaychristian101.com

      January 19, 2012 at 3:19 pm |
    • ......

      “Our Ministry, which is in Christ and according to the Spirit of truth (John 14:17), has reached out to CNN and key contacts for more than two years but they continue to sensationalize news, involving religious doctrines of which they have no knowledge, rather than convey a message of truth. Recently they even arranged to have all of our e-mails blocked to ensure we are no longer able to contact the writers in order to explain their deceptive articles. “

      Because you are a LIAR!

      “Tim Tebow is not a Christian and follower of Christ but rather a false Christ”
      LIE

      “ ‘CNN Belief Blog ~ Sign of the Times’ and ‘Influence of the Media’.”
      Don’t bother it’s full of LIES!

      January 19, 2012 at 3:23 pm |
    • J.W

      Why is Tim Tebow a false Christ? What if Tim Tebow is reading this right now and sees you calling him a false Christ? What reasons would you give him for saying that?

      January 19, 2012 at 3:26 pm |
    • Bizarre

      AdvBerg – "Recently they even arranged to have all of our e-mails blocked"

      It's called: "Add address to spam list". I have done it to many former Nigerian princes and other raving maniacs too :)

      January 19, 2012 at 3:29 pm |
  13. fred

    No way to take Genesis as literal account of creation. Sequence and end product are wrong, sections not consistent one for next, and no intermediate steps that match what science have evidence of. So what then if not literal. So what? Nothing.

    Yes, so if not literal nothing can claim with so many interpretings. Seems evolution is best answer based on what we can know for now. Religists lie to ignore science.

    January 18, 2012 at 7:24 pm |
    • Tomcat

      Wrong. God created the Heavens and the Universe. Evolution was created by the devil to deceive men.

      January 18, 2012 at 8:50 pm |
    • momoya

      Typing is easy, isn't it Tomcat?

      January 18, 2012 at 8:55 pm |
    • fred

      What you fail to understand is that you seem to have the mind of a materialist so can I assume you are an atheist? The Bible is not a science book yet you continue to use it in an attempt to explain that which requires at a minimum the scientific method. Use math books to help solve math problems, physics books to solve physics but do not use the Bible to solve or explain the Pythagorean Theorem or quantum physics.
      Evolution theory has no more affect on the Word of God than a talking serpent has on Speciation. Although it is fun to kick around science and the Bible focus on totally different parts of our existence. As materialist you are frustrated that you cannot see what believers see as a result of faith so you lash out against the Bible and attempt to turn science into a weapon against it. Believers on the other hand then think they need to rationalize belief of what cannot be seen which just ends up with strange sounding excuses for God. God does not need justification we do because of the way we often act.
      Science and Jesus need to meet at Camp David and bring about peace.

      January 18, 2012 at 9:00 pm |
    • Sue

      Certainly, the bible is not a science book, although Christian wingnuts try to use it that way. List of the valid uses for the bible:

      1. paperweight
      2. firewood
      3. source of paper pulp for recycling
      4. doorstop

      January 19, 2012 at 11:26 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Sue
      Don't forget that rice paper is great for rolling tobacco – or other smokeables, should one lean that way.

      January 19, 2012 at 12:52 pm |
    • Bizarre

      Sue,

      Until recently the Bible was also useful in the treatment of ganglion cysts of the wrist and hand (one would heartily thump the cyst with the 'good book'), but even that has gone out of fashion.

      January 19, 2012 at 12:57 pm |
  14. Bumper

    Momoya:

    I'm flattered that you think I'm a nice person and fun to hangout with. How did you know?
    Let's keep this hypothetical, but, say for example, God showed up at your door and shook your hand.
    What would you do? How would this change your thinking? Provide a definitive answer without dependent clauses.

    January 18, 2012 at 6:55 pm |
    • momoya

      If god showed up at my door and shook my hands I would ask her/it/him/whatever what is the plan was in regards to humanity and the universe. If that being explained that it was the god of the bible, I would ask it why it choose to present itself in so many untenable and contradictory ways–ways so paradoxical that logic precluded belief in it. Obviously, I would have a lot of questions and ask a lot of favors.

      Bumper, I have been where you are, and I do NOT necessarily recommend agnosticism and atheism for you. It's a tough switch, and plenty of believers can't handle it. Many believers cannot psychologically deal with the loss of their belief, and a premature move can be detrimental. Considering atheistic arguments fairly takes courage, and being more decided takes even more courage. It really all depends on your level of indoctrination. Best of luck to you.

      January 18, 2012 at 8:53 pm |
    • Bumper

      No worries. I would never consider Agnostic or Atheism. My flesh rests in hope and my hope is in Christ. I've already got my ticket and I know where I'm headed. Do you ?

      January 18, 2012 at 10:35 pm |
    • momoya

      No, you do NOT have your ticket. You BELIEVE that you have your ticket. Nobody knows what comes after death. Nobody. It's the arrogance of the believers that ruins them. When you believe you know "THE TRUTH' and that, even though it can't be proven, you know what's best for everybody, well then you've got fundamentalism and fundamentals to crazy stuff like make war and fly planes into buildings. You know, all for the good of those who don't believe exactly like the fundie.

      You should really think about your arrogance in this matter. You should really think about what god belief you would be all fundamental about had you been born a thousand years ago, or in a country with a different dominant religion. Had you been born in Saudi Arabia you'd be a fanatical muslim claiming to have all the answers. Best.

      January 18, 2012 at 11:16 pm |
  15. JFritz

    Southern Baptist Convention. Stop. Go no further. Thinking not required. What did CNN think the results of such a survey would be? Duh.

    January 18, 2012 at 6:49 pm |
  16. Bumper

    Once again, allow me to ask a simple hypothetical question to all of the Atheist and Agnostic bloggers:

    If there were a mathematical or scientific proof (purely hypothetical) that definitively showed the existence of Spirituality or God revealed Himself to you in an overt way that proved His existence, what would YOU do? What would be YOUR reaction to this event? How would YOUR life change?

    January 18, 2012 at 6:33 pm |
    • momoya

      Obviously it would depend on the sort of proof and what that evidence demanded of me. I was a believer, and after many, many years of careful study I realized that the bible made much more sense as a collection of myths–each one tuned to the influences of geography, social codes, and other surrounding and competing mythos. I bank on the explanation that makes the most sense in consideration of as much evidence as possible. The god of the bible is very inconsistent from page to page and era to era, so I'm not sure how a self-refuting idea could be proved. I would gladly investigate the evidence, though, and go with what makes the most sense. Does that help you?

      January 18, 2012 at 6:45 pm |
    • Tom

      It wouldn't. It is a bit of an silly question because it wouldn't be your "God." A creator does not = an abrahamic God.

      January 18, 2012 at 6:46 pm |
    • fred

      God is pleased by faith and faithfullness so the reliance on scientific proof would actually make what God has said for 6,000 years a big lie. That would be devistating to the true Christians. It may cause an atheist to scratch his or her head but would never bring about faith or open that door which only faith could open. I am attacked by atheists all the time which is what the Bible says should happen. If atheists ebrace me it would mean I have accepted some form of materialism.
      Jesus came and died at the perfect time and will return again when the evil in this world has reached its fullness. God does this so as to demonstrate his attribute of long suffering. God is patient so that none will perish but all come to the glory of God. So far everything God as expressed in his word has come to pass and there is no reason to believe any different.

      January 18, 2012 at 9:21 pm |
    • momoya

      @ Fred: Your god made a lake of fire to torture forever any person who doesn't figure out the precise magic code he prescribes. He doesn't love his enemies, he fries them. He isn't patient, he's petulant. He's the worst terrorist imaginable because he terrorizes more ferociously and longer than any other figure we can think of. If you're proud to worship such a sick freak then go for it, but don't claim everything's all lovey-dovey. By any standard, it's absolutely disgusting.

      January 18, 2012 at 11:28 pm |
    • mandarax

      I agree with what AtheistSteve said when you posted this exact same thing earlier: If that happened, then I would believe.

      The fact that this never, ever happens (except in archaic Middle Eastern folk tales) is exactly why freethinking people do not believe.

      January 19, 2012 at 12:02 am |
    • fred

      momoya
      Wrong God momoya. I can understand if you do not know God . Jesus is not a killer and actually gave a clear example of Gods love.

      January 19, 2012 at 1:42 am |
    • HellBent

      But fred, Jesus is god. And there's lots and lots and lots of examples of god killing people in the OT. I mean, he kills babies just to try and teach some egyptian dude a lesson (because an all-powerful deity needs to slaughter infants to get his point across, apparently). So, yeah, Jesus does kill. A LOT (see: flood, global). Unless, of course, you're not a monotheist.

      January 19, 2012 at 1:48 am |
    • Primewonk

      Any god worth his/her/its salt claims supernatural powers. Science only deals with the natural. Thus science couldn't care less about your version of god, or any other god.

      Not sure why you fundiots are unable to comprehend this.

      January 19, 2012 at 8:37 am |
  17. ashrakay

    In the midst of arguing whether there is a god or not, I still find the simple fact that if there IS a god, why anyone would choose to worship him. He's egomaniacal, jealous, petty and had more than once ordered the murder of women and children. He claims to have given free will, but it's a gift given at the end of a gun. "Obey and worship me, or suffer eternal damnation." This god, if he did exist should be rejected by any decent, moral person.

    January 18, 2012 at 6:32 pm |
    • momoya

      A simple idea that Christians don't seem to grasp. Many seem to be offended by the formula when placed so starkly before them. Worshiping a hell-creator as perfect and good seems absolutely revolting to me, but christians insist I shouldn't be offended that they believe the perfect place for me is an eternal lake of fire.

      January 18, 2012 at 6:49 pm |
  18. momoya

    Beldar, science has proven many instances in the bible false. For instance, the bat is a mammal, not a bird, and rabbits don't chew the cud. Those are two instances out of thousands. Shifting the goalposts is not a mature debate tactic.

    January 18, 2012 at 6:20 pm |
  19. BOBBY

    Whatever I believe or don't beleve in terms of The Bible and what it says is moot, what I do believe is that I always have a strange fear of what happens after death, and that is itself part of my motivation in life to try and do the right thing.....if thats God,....He's awsome.

    January 18, 2012 at 6:20 pm |
    • Really?

      So you find no earthly reason to do the right thing; you instead are trying to "buy" your way into heaven? I don't think a real god would be very impressed with that – it's pretty selfish.

      God is awesome because you fear what he might do to you when you die? Awesome is not the right word for that. Your god is more of a terrorist, inflicting norrible violence if you don't do what he wants.

      January 18, 2012 at 6:27 pm |
  20. Beldar

    I respect the beliefs of others. I do not want to push my beliefs on anyone else. I am thankful we live in a country where we can all believe as we see fit. I will fight to protect your right to believ what you want to believe.

    January 18, 2012 at 6:19 pm |
    • shut up, herbie.

      herbie, shut up.

      January 18, 2012 at 6:24 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Beldar-
      So, if I believe that my holy books and god tell me to fly planes into buildings, are you going to fight to protect my right to believe that?

      January 18, 2012 at 6:26 pm |
    • Dr. Gary Hurd

      Well said Beldar. What "Really-O?" fials to understand is that flying planes into buildings is already illegal. It is the act, and not the thought that is illegal. If we ever abandon that, the American nation will be gone.

      January 18, 2012 at 10:02 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Dr. Gary Hurd
      Really? After reading some of your other posts, this one surprises me. Beliefs don't have consequences? All belief should be held in equal esteem simply for the sake of equity? All beliefs, regardless of how abhorrent they may be should be accepted and defended? With all due respect, I think you may want to consider that position. Whether an act is licit or illicit really isn't relevant. Of course it's not desirable to "outlaw" thought – it's not even possible without an omniscient tyrant; but to insist that we should defend one's "right" to hold any belief, no matter how pernicious or destructive it may be is indefensible. Actions are born of belief. Belief has consequences.

      "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

      January 18, 2012 at 10:38 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Beldar ( and Dr. Hurd )-
      Would it make a difference if I changed my phrasing to the following?

      ...So, if I believe that my holy books and god tell me to fly planes into buildings, do you RESPECT that belief?

      Doesn't that simple change make your position indefensible?

      January 18, 2012 at 10:53 pm |
    • J.W

      I could believe that everyone except for me should die, but we have laws in place to protect that from happening. Our laws protect one belief from harming another person.

      January 19, 2012 at 3:42 pm |
    • Dr. Gary Hurd

      Really-O,

      If you try to outlaw people's thoughts you will bring on a tyranny, and terror worse than any that have ever existed yet on earth. Outlawing religious books puts you directly in-line with the folks that you supposedly oppose.

      January 20, 2012 at 12:28 am |
    • Really-O?

      @Dr Gary Hurd –
      Please read my post again – I did not suggest, and do not support, "outlawing" thought or "religious books" (in fact my original post did not make any reference to law – you introduced that red herring). My point is, once again, that it is absurd to "respect" any and all belief, no matter how pernicious, out of some kind of misguided relativistic equity. Should we respect the beliefs of those who support Nazi eugenics, racism, pedophilia? Should we defend (remember, this is a verb) the rights of Nazi eugenicists, racists, pedophiles? Should we defend (again, the verb) those groups right to instill their beliefs in their children? I will say it again – Action is born of belief. Belief has consequences.

      @J.W-
      Naivete. Have you ever read crime statistics or, perhaps, a newspaper?

      January 20, 2012 at 11:00 am |
    • Really-O?

      Semantics are important. I got off-track a bit in my last two posts by using "defend" in place of Beldar's "fight to protect". Please subst itute as needed.
      For example, "Should we fight to protect the rights of Nazi eugenicists, racists, and pedophiles to instill their beliefs in their children?"

      January 20, 2012 at 11:17 am |
    • Really-O?

      I've done a poor job of articulating the crux of this issue...so I'll give it one more try.

      The introduction of "rights" (power or privilege granted by law) into a discussion of belief really is a red herring. It is impossible – without, again, an omniscient tyrant – to enforce any law proscribing a personally held belief or thought and I'm unaware of any U.S. legislation explicitly granting a legal right to think or believe as one sees fit, as it is not only unnecessary, but rather absurd (the First Amendment to the U.S. Const itution grants "free expression" and "free exercise", not "free belief") . It is, however, possible to have proscriptions on what one does with a belief or thought, even including their expression with regard to free speech (as an example, please refer to laws prohibiting hate speech). So "fighting to protect the right" of one to believe whatever the wish is meaningless.

      Beldar's and Dr. Gary Hurd's assertion that we should "respect" all beliefs is another issue. It should be apparent to anyone that there are innumerable beliefs that not only do not deserve respect, but deserve active disrespect, condemnation, and opposition (Nazi eugenics, racism, pedophilia, for example). Now Gary, what fault do you find with this assertion?

      January 20, 2012 at 12:03 pm |
    • J.W

      Anyone could commit crime regardless of their religious beliefs. We all have a right to believe what we want. We just cant always act on it

      January 20, 2012 at 1:03 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @J.W –

      Did you even read my post?

      January 20, 2012 at 1:38 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.