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My Take: Why the abortion issue won’t go away
The 2011 Right to Life march in Washington.
January 23rd, 2012
10:01 AM ET

My Take: Why the abortion issue won’t go away

Editor's Note: R. Albert Mohler Jr. is president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, the flagship school of the Southern Baptist Convention and one of the largest seminaries in the world.

By R. Albert Mohler Jr., Special to CNN

After recently addressing a large secular assembly on issues of moral controversy, I turned and faced a woman who urgently wanted to ask me a question: “Why won’t the abortion issue just go away?”

I knew exactly what she was asking. I often meet abortion rights advocates who honestly thought that the national controversy over abortion would simply melt away within a few years of the Roe v. Wade decision legalizing abortion, handed down by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1973.

That was clearly the hope of the Supreme Court majority that signed onto the opinion written by Associate Justice Harry Blackmun. In a note he wrote to himself as he drafted the final opinion and looked to its aftermath, Blackmun revealed a rather optimistic assumption: “It will be an unsettled period for a while.”

Surely, he didn’t mean for that “while” to extend four decades.

Sunday marked the 39th anniversary of the decision, and the abortion question is anything but settled. Just look at the crowds gathering in Washington on Monday for the annual March for Life.

In fact, America has been unsettled ever since Roe. Abortion has become a central issue of political conflict, debate and division. If the court had hoped to calm the waters, it failed spectacularly.

As Guido Calabresi, then dean of the Yale Law School, observed, the aftermath of Roe v. Wade produced a “sense of desperate embattlement.” As Calabresi noted, the court’s decision failed to produce a national consensus. Rather, Roe “made it impossible for the opposing views to live with each other.”

Those who thought that the decision of the Supreme Court would settle the issue had reason for that hope. On other controversial questions, the court’s rulings had produced initial furor and outrage, but the nation rather quickly accommodated itself to those decisions. Take integration in public schools.

Not so with abortion.

Why? Professor Lawrence H. Tribe of the Harvard Law School, an ardent defender of abortion rights, at least recognized that the abortion question presents nothing less than a “clash of absolutes.”

Tribe attempted to propose a means of avoiding “pitting these absolutes against one another.” All such efforts have failed, precisely because the competing claims are indeed absolutes.

When abortion-rights advocates and their allies ask why the abortion issue will not just go away, they really mean to ask why, given the stark reality of Roe, the pro-life movement has not dissipated and retreated into the history books.

Here are five reasons why:

First, the radical character of Roe – overthrowing abortion laws in 49 states – galvanized pro-life forces. The judicial imposition of abortion on demand, virtually without restriction until the third trimester, produced both shock and outrage among those who believe that the unborn child has an inalienable right to life.

Within months of Roe, an organized pro-life movement came into shape, looking for any means of limiting and eventually ending the termination of unborn life.

Second, Roe also had the effect, surely unforeseen by the Supreme Court, of bringing millions of evangelical Christians into the fight on behalf of unborn life. Prior to Roe, even many evangelicals believed that abortion was a Roman Catholic issue.

Roe was a legal earthquake that awakened a massive number of evangelicals to the deadly reality of abortion. With remarkable speed, evangelicals soon educated themselves on the issue and then mobilized themselves both politically and culturally.

Third, the death spiral of abortion simply defies adequate calculation. Over a million abortions are performed in America each year. Reports last year indicated that over 40% of all pregnancies in New York end in abortion, a rate that increases to almost 60% of pregnancies among African-American women.

The sheer scale of the death toll sears the pro-life conscience. Young people can now see that millions are missing from their own generation.

Fourth, abortion has proved to be exactly what pro-life activists warned it would be: a deadly threat to human dignity that would target specific populations. Prenatal testing has produced a deadly reality for unborn babies considered less than acceptable by their parents.

The vast majority (90%) of unborn children diagnosed with Down syndrome are now aborted. Sex-selection abortions are legal in the wide-open “right” to abortion declared by the court. Prenatal testing of other characteristics means that parents can now abort a baby that does not meet their specifications and try again.

Fifth, powerful imaging technologies now allow a look inside the womb, a privilege unknown to previous generations. That window has transformed the equation, as millions of parents have seen their unborn children and witnessed the miracle of life.

They have seen the little human form and the actions of the unborn child, sucking its thumb as it nestles within its mother. Millions of siblings have seen the images of their unborn brothers and sisters taped to the refrigerator door.

Those of us who believe that every single unborn child has a right to be born cannot resign from the effort to protect those lives.

The greatest advances made by the pro-life movement have been made among the young, the generation that has known the death toll from Roe v. Wade all their lives. More evidence that the abortion issue will not simply go away.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of R. Albert Mohler Jr.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Abortion • Opinion • Politics

soundoff (1,716 Responses)
  1. momoya

    Within the next two decades, the general public may be DEMANDING that their government limit who can and cannot have a child. There's simply no way that spaceship earth can support the current trend in population growth. We need to downsize and abortion is one way to accomplish this. Since the environment has such limited resources, why not make the decision to abort an easy one–and especially easy if the person makes the choice very early on in the process?

    January 23, 2012 at 3:35 pm |
    • William Demuth

      While you are right, you are wrong.

      Religions need peons. They flourish amongst the poor and uneducated.

      Not only will they not ever encourage birth control, they will actively resist.

      They have already begun passively endorsing those who blow up clinics and kill doctors.

      It will only get worse.

      January 23, 2012 at 3:57 pm |
    • catholic engineer

      @William Demuth Sounds like eugenics is what you're looking for. But before eugenics is enforced, be prepared. Make sure you are among the elite with massive intelligence. And that may not be enough. You'll have to show an actual willingness to work for human betterment. After that, it's easy. Somebody will simply have to decide whether you're qualified to survive.

      January 23, 2012 at 4:07 pm |
    • jimtanker

      As long as I don’t believe in religion I have no worries about not being part of the intellectual elite.

      January 23, 2012 at 4:13 pm |
    • William Demuth

      catholic engineer

      Eugenics is a usefull tool to encourage intracult violence.

      The momentum of the downward spiral of Cult dogma here at home is promising, but they zealots are going abroad to recruit.

      So I have made it my mission to encourage men of faith to wage war in the name of their God,as long as they only kill other believers.

      The Christians kill the Jews, the Jews kill the Muslims, and the Muslims kill EVERYBODY.

      January 23, 2012 at 4:15 pm |
    • catholic engineer

      @Jimtanker "As long as I don’t believe in religion I have no worries about not being part of the intellectual elite." Good for you ! You may be the guy who gets to decide about William Damuth. Better keep an eye on each other.

      January 23, 2012 at 4:20 pm |
    • William Demuth

      Catholic

      At the end of the day only one survives.

      If we purge Christianity some other belief shall come into play, but non belief is spontaneous.

      There shall ALWAYS be one like me to reject your dogma, so try and kill us if you can.

      It wont be the first time!

      January 23, 2012 at 4:25 pm |
    • catholic engineer

      Mr. William. I would have you know that this Catholic has never so much as slapped anyone. You may let down your guard.
      BTW, how many times have you been killed by anyone before today?
      Meantime, I enjoy the banter. I'll happily play idiot because its fun.
      Enjoy the day.

      January 23, 2012 at 4:40 pm |
    • liz

      Hear Hear Catholic Engineer! Love it. And Momoya- bunch of bull! In a couple of decades there will probably be incentives within each nation to have children, lots of children. Europe is not producing enough babies at replacement.

      February 7, 2012 at 1:08 am |
  2. Staring Horse with Tongue Sticking Out

    In the case of r.a.p.e or incest, forcing a woman made pregnant by this violent act would cause further psychological harm to the victim. Often a woman is too afraid to speak up or is unaware she is pregnant, thus the morning after pill is ineffective in these situations.

    January 23, 2012 at 3:27 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      Not to mention women who carry the baby of a ra.pe to term has all kinds of crap to deal with when it comes to the child. It's much more humane to give her the choice. Women who have been ra.ped already feel powerless and that they had choices taken from them, and people want to add another onto that?!! Probably one of the most sadistic things to do to someone who was ra.ped.

      January 23, 2012 at 3:39 pm |
    • Milton

      If I remember correctly...very very few pregnancies ever come from ra_pe

      January 23, 2012 at 3:41 pm |
    • BRC

      @Milton,
      The statistics pertaining to ra-pe are rarely reliable, as it is massively underreported (one can immagine that women looking to admit their child was a product of ra-pe are even less common)

      January 23, 2012 at 3:48 pm |
    • Milton

      @BRC- True and that makes the argument for abortions due to ra_pe even less of a point. Without good data, there is no way to know how many abortions result from ra_pe.

      January 23, 2012 at 9:10 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Such baloney being babbled on this site. Women listen to the lies of the glass ceiling explosion. Hence, don't have children to spoil your chances of success ... but, don't pay attention that to climb the corporate ladder, you need to sell your soul and body. After that, we've gotcha.

      Amen.

      January 23, 2012 at 11:08 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      So, you are sure you know exactly why every woman who's ended a pregnancy has done so? For her career? Hmm. How 'bout the 15-year-old who got pregnant the first time she had s3x? How about the 43-year-old who learned that the fetus had a terrible genetic defect that would allow it to live only a few painful minutes after birth? How about the 12-year-old living in a rat-infested apartment whose uncle 'did' her?

      You are such an idiot it's hard to believe you exist.

      January 24, 2012 at 7:47 am |
    • Greg s

      You have a point Tom but what about all those middle class Americans who Just didn't want the inconvenience of a Child. So they killed it!

      January 27, 2012 at 4:55 pm |
    • nothing new here

      What is even more shocking is that the male perps don't pay child support.
      Not that a woman deserves to be forced to acknowledge a hardened criminal in her life:(

      February 5, 2012 at 2:11 pm |
  3. William Demuth

    If you are Christian, and you are not willing to provide for your rug rat, please abort.

    Disregard the men with the collars

    They just push adoption so they will have little tiny bundles of joy to bugger,

    January 23, 2012 at 3:14 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      William, what if your parents had thought this way when carrying you?

      Amen.

      January 23, 2012 at 11:10 pm |
    • Creepycoolpriest

      Then he simply would not have been born and wouldn't know the difference. Do you remember the womb? I sure don't.

      January 27, 2012 at 3:00 pm |
    • nothing new here

      Christians should be adopting all these unwanted kids.
      Their churches should also be paying taxes...but that is for another topic debate.

      February 5, 2012 at 2:12 pm |
  4. Reality

    Why the abortion issue won't go away? The stupidity of Pill and/or condom users and uneducuated political leaders!!!

    Added details:

    Obama rode to the Blood-Red House on the backs of 35+million aborted womb-babies!!!

    What BO can do to at least lift part of the Immoral Majority leader label? (see below for a definition of the Immoral Majority)

    He says abortions should be "safe, legal and rare" but says nothing about the basic tenet of proper human conduct i.e. Thou Shalt Not Kill. And where is BO's sense of indignation that abortions are not rare and that these acts of horror demean the Golden Rule considering that he says he is a Christian. And where is his sense of indignation that women who use the Pill do not use it properly resulting in an failure rate of 8.7% as per the Guttmacher Inst-itute statistics. Using these and other Guttmacher Inst-itute data, this failure of women to use the Pill properly results in ~1,000,000 unplanned pregnancies every year. And the annual abortion rate in the USA is?? ~1,000,000 as per the CDC.

    And do males use condoms properly? No, as said failure rate for this birth "control" method is 17.4%!! Again using Guttmacher data, said failure rate results in another ~1,000,000 unplanned pregnancies every year.

    Bottom line: BO is still not aware of the basics of birth control and still remains the leader of the Immoral Majority and will remain so until he becomes a true Christian and one who respects and protects human life in all its forms and who at least emphasizes the proper use of birth control methods!!!

    The "Immoral Majority" you ask?

    The fastest growing USA voting bloc: In 2008, the 70+ million "Roe vs. Wade mothers and fathers" of aborted womb-babies" whose ranks grow by two million per year i.e. 78+ million "IM" voters in 2012.

    2008 Presidential popular vote results:

    69,456,897 for pro-abortion/choice BO, 59,934,814 for "pro-life" JM.

    January 23, 2012 at 2:58 pm |
    • William Demuth

      Reality my freind, you are the BEST argument in favor of abortion I have ever run into!

      January 23, 2012 at 3:15 pm |
    • Primewonk

      You fundiots are being played. From 2000 to 2006 you owned the White House, the Senate, the House, and the Supreme Court. A perfect storm. Why wasn't Roe overturned then? You ouppetmasters use this to string you folks along. It's how they maintain their power base. They can't and won't do anything with Roe. They'd lose all you one issue fundiots.

      January 23, 2012 at 4:20 pm |
    • nothing new here

      Where exactly are you getting these statistics – the BIBLE????
      BWAAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAA
      Thanks for the laugh.

      February 5, 2012 at 2:15 pm |
  5. Colin

    I have sat on a lot of planes with crying children. Abortion ought to be legal until the third.....grade.

    January 23, 2012 at 2:57 pm |
    • Donald Shimoda

      You are free to abort or not abort, just as I am. Abort yourself and you are no longer part of the fiction.

      January 23, 2012 at 3:19 pm |
    • Staring Horse with Tongue Sticking Out

      LOL

      January 23, 2012 at 3:29 pm |
    • LAugh

      BEST COMMENT I"VE SEEN ALL DAY. LOL

      January 30, 2012 at 5:40 pm |
  6. periwinkle

    This is a biased, poorly researched article. The author's intention was never to answer the question, but only to support his pro-life stance.

    Author states: "....the death spiral of abortion simply defies adequate calculation. Over a million abortions are performed in America each year. Reports last year indicated that over 40% of all pregnancies in New York end in abortion, a rate that increases to almost 60% of pregnancies among African-American women." ------– "defies adequate calculation"??? Meaning, please? Looks like you calculated it just fine. Do you mean to say that the numbers shock you because you are pro-life? Decreased birthrates are a good thing. Our world population is exploding, and people aren't taking good care of the kids they DO have. Do African American women REALLY need more fatherless children? Sorry, but it's a sad statistical fact....

    Author states: "Young people can now see that millions are missing from their own generation." "The greatest advances made by the pro-life movement have been made among the young, the generation that has known the death toll from Roe v. Wade all their lives."------- This is a ridiculous assumption. Really, have you polled all the 'young people'? More accurately, have you spoken to one lately? They aren't even remotely cognizant of anything 'missing' other than their iPhones or their favorite jeans.

    Author states: "Abortion has proved to be exactly what pro-life activists warned it would be: a deadly threat to human dignity that would target specific populations." ------ Since when was it 'dignified' to be born a crack baby with below average intelligence, living off welfare, likely getting no education, becoming a criminal, or never contributing anything back to society? I think the Christian right is delusional about who these mysterious aborted babies are....It isn't the educated population going out becoming repeatedly pregnant. It is the socioeconomic segment of society which we would all be better off if they would NOT procreate, so let them abort! abort! abort!

    Author states: "Prenatal testing has produced a deadly reality for unborn babies considered less than acceptable by their parents. The vast majority (90%) of unborn children diagnosed with Down syndrome are now aborted."------- Ummm this is one of the best things that has happened in modern medicine. Are the fundamentals prepared to take care of a disabled child for the next 40+ years, AND pay higher taxes for the government to do so for a large disabled population? A population which does NOT contribute to the betterment of society.

    Author states: "Powerful imaging technologies now allow a look inside the womb, a privilege unknown to previous generations. That window has transformed the equation, as millions of parents have seen their unborn children and witnessed the miracle of life."------– I can only see this technology as having a positive effect, allowing parents to terminate for a gross malformation, or encourage a stronger bond with the a healthy fetus, likely encouraging better prenatal care.

    Roe V. Wade should have made abortion legal only through the first 12 weeks, with exceptions for birth defects. The Catholics and Evangelicals are very quick to judge and force laws upon the population pertaining to their own egotistical beliefs, but are they prepared to adopt all these unwanted children? The answer is no. The only benefit all of these babies will have to the Christian right is providing more ignorant voters who don't even know how to properly advocate and vote for themselves, politically. I think the "day after" pill should be available at 14. Abortion for gender or characteristic selection is ridiculous.

    The answer for the question: "why won't the abortion issue go away" is the same as to why all of these topics always boil down to the same discussion. It is simple: RELIGION

    January 23, 2012 at 2:57 pm |
    • jimtanker

      A very well thought out statement. I agree completely with everything you stated here.

      January 23, 2012 at 4:10 pm |
    • SPA Knight

      It's a good thing your own parents weren't for population control eh? Those who want to control population are centered in selfishness. It's so retarded to think that you can save a planet from over population when you had absolutely no role in the creation of it whatsoever.

      This is similar to a child that receives a gift from his parents which they didn't earn of even deserve but are unwilling to share it with others. Get over yourself.

      January 26, 2012 at 10:28 am |
    • momof2

      I fully agree. As for the troll below, point is the poster's parents were able to provide for him or her, and chose to have him or her. They had a choice. Population control means not having babies that society can't support, not eliminating all babies or forcing mothers-to-be to end wanted pregnancies. Give women the choice, and hopefully most will choose only to have as many children as they can support. Otherwise, instead of dead fetuses, you'll have dead children and dead adults who have lived shortened lives filled with suffering due to an absence of basic resources like food and health care.

      January 27, 2012 at 1:32 am |
    • Creepycoolpriest

      Well said, and this is the reason it will never be overturned, because there are plenty of socioeconimcal, environmental, crime-related, money-related reasons why legalized abortion is a good idea. Every argument against is bible based and flawed in every sense that has to do with reality.

      January 27, 2012 at 3:09 pm |
    • Greg s

      Without religion there would just be anarchy, Because Atheist dont give a da@m about anyone but themselves.

      January 27, 2012 at 4:59 pm |
    • nothing new here

      The Evangelicals are too busy playing the "abortion card" to realize that, in 20 years, IF abortion is completely eradicated, their religious leaders will be forcing them to pay out for all these unwanted kids.
      Evengelicals don't realize that it will be THEM that will be providing for all these poor mothers, anchor babies and so on.

      February 5, 2012 at 2:20 pm |
  7. Staring Horse with Tongue Sticking Out

    Adoption is not an alternative to abortion, because it remains the woman's choice whether or not to give her child up for adoption. Statistics show that very few women who give birth choose to give up their babies – less than 3% of white unmarried women and less than 2% of black unmarried women.

    Abortion is a safe medical procedure. The vast majority of women – 88% – who have an abortion do so in their first trimester. Medical abortions have less than 0.5% risk of serious complications and do not affect a woman's health or future ability to become pregnant or give birth.

    January 23, 2012 at 2:56 pm |
    • Greg s

      I think if it was the responsibility of the Mother to dispose of the aborted fetus. There might be quite a few less abortions.

      January 27, 2012 at 5:01 pm |
  8. Staring Horse with Tongue Sticking Out

    God has pre-planned every abortion that has taken place on our planet.

    "God's plan" is the way that Christians traditionally explain things like amputations, cancer, hurricanes and car accidents. For example, if a Christian dies a painful and tragic death because of cancer, she dies as part of God's plan. Her death has a purpose. God called her home for a reason. Even if something bad happens to a Christian, it is actually good because it is part of God's plan.

    “Because God made you for a reason, he also decided when you would be born and how long you would live. He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death.

    The Bible says, "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breath. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]

    There is also this:
    Regardless of the circ umstances of your birth or who your parents are, God had a plan in creating you.
    Under this view of the universe, God plans everything.

    He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death."

    One simple implication of this statement is that God has pre-planned every abortion that has taken place on our planet, ever.

    January 23, 2012 at 2:48 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Horse: God also planned for his Son to die on the cross – but that does not excuse the evil we did & continue to do.
      You mistake God's sovereignty as an excuse for our responsibility. God is so sovereign that he co-opts evil (like killing his Son) & turns it into our rescue – but it doesn't excuse the evil we do.

      "You intended it for evil; God used it for good." (Gen.50:20)

      January 23, 2012 at 2:58 pm |
    • BRC

      @Russ,
      So, while "God" is planning it, it's good. But while we're doing it, it's bad?

      January 23, 2012 at 3:10 pm |
    • Staring Horse with Tongue Sticking Out

      Russ, God did not give man free will and thus all evil is of his doing. You are not using your head.

      You are quoting Genisis? Children's stories? I could rip Genisis to shreds for days, here a few funny ones:

      God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night,
      on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the
      sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). 1:3-5

      God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day)
      working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls
      heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters.
      This firmament, if it existed, would have been quite an obstacle to our
      space program. 1:6-8

      Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their
      photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:11

      THINK!!

      January 23, 2012 at 3:19 pm |
    • Brother Maynard

      Russ sez: ""You intended it for evil; God used it for good." (Gen.50:20)"
      You ( i.e. Workers / Doctors at Planned Parenthood ) inteded it ( abortions ) for evil; God use(s) it for good
      This is the problem with "holy" bible ...you can use it to support any position

      January 23, 2012 at 3:24 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Staring Horse with Tongue Sticking Out, whew! What happened in the (beginning) garden of Eden (Eve being lied and seduced by satan) is what is happening at end of days (your generation) ... that being lied and seduced by satan.

      Amen.

      January 23, 2012 at 11:15 pm |
    • Creepycoolpriest

      Satan is getting crushed in the God/Satan death toll fyi.

      January 27, 2012 at 3:12 pm |
    • Greg s

      A child is a choice that the Lord has laid at your feet, You have free will The child does not. If you choose to kill the child Gods plan for that child ends as well, But you now have this delima of your decision on your plate. The responsibility of a Mother is Huge, There are consequences, ask any women who has aborted a child, ask her years later and she can tell you how old the child would have been if she had kept it, how much she regrets it, Abortion is murder, we all know it we just like to hide it under lots of little excuses.

      January 27, 2012 at 5:08 pm |
    • SeanNJ

      @Greg s: Maybe god's plan was for the child was to be aborted.

      January 27, 2012 at 5:10 pm |
  9. ResponsibleMe

    Tom, Tom the Piper's Son is most illuminating. Women reserve the right to produce or abort fetuses at will and no one may interfere with that right. That would be fine if women had some innate ability to detect desirable or undesirable traits that might fit into a long term plan for development of the human species, and were uniformly intelligent and responsible enough to adhere to such a plan. As Richard Dawkins has pointed out, we are in a unique position to take charge of ourselves and our development as a species. We can create such a long term plan. Moreover, it is in our best interest to do so. Why? Modern medicine is busily circ*umventing selection pressures that are necessary to keep us viable as a species. Also, no one can deny that we can be much more than we are as rational, creative beings. We can't afford to trust individual women with complete reproductive freedom if we are to implement a rational plan to move the human species forward into the future.

    January 23, 2012 at 2:43 pm |
    • RFBJR

      Hmmm, sounds somewhat like the goal of the Third Reich.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:48 pm |
    • William Demuth

      Darwin would beg to differ.

      Social situations require adaptation.

      If you sleep with women who will abort your offspring, you are sleeping with the wrong women

      January 23, 2012 at 2:50 pm |
    • ResponsibleMe

      The Third Reich had the wrong premises and, most importantly, the wrong tools for improvement of the human species. We can and must do a better job.

      January 23, 2012 at 3:03 pm |
    • William Demuth

      Responsible.

      Your use of rational and women in the same sentence makes me suspect you have "limited" experience with them at best.

      January 23, 2012 at 3:16 pm |
    • ResponsibleMe

      William, we and they have been just vehicles for selfish genes. As a species we must set our own agenda. We cannot trust individuals, men or women, to make rational choices regarding reproduction. We have to act collectively to assume control of our fate as a species.

      January 23, 2012 at 3:32 pm |
    • Huh?

      "We cannot trust individuals, men or women, to make rational choices regarding reproduction. We have to act collectively to assume control of our fate as a species."

      LOL! OMG that is hysterical.

      January 23, 2012 at 3:36 pm |
    • William Demuth

      ResponsibleMe

      Megalomania run wild.

      Even the assumption that we deserve a future seem egocentric to me.

      Collectivising our destiny? One look at the Republican nomination shows that is a fools errand.

      Its every gene for themselves! Sooner or later we will break from this ball of dust and spread the seeds of humanity through out the stars.

      Being a despised extraterran invasive species seems a fitting destiny for our lot.

      January 23, 2012 at 3:50 pm |
    • ResponsibleMe

      William, I believe we can be more than the cancer that we have become: coupling randomly in alleyways, crack houses and rusted out automobiles, degenerating with every successive generation. It is not megalomania to want more for the human race.

      January 23, 2012 at 3:59 pm |
    • SeanNJ

      I hate that I've missed out on all the "random coupling."

      January 23, 2012 at 4:03 pm |
    • William Demuth

      Megalo

      Well, yes it is. Your Utopia is not mine. Mine is not his.

      Led Zepplin said "If we all call the tune, then the Pipier will lead us to reason".

      The Piper is Darwin, and he knows the best laid plans of mice and men oft times go assunder.

      January 23, 2012 at 4:27 pm |
    • ResponsibleMe

      Let's not appeal to Led Zeppelin, William. And Darwin isn't working out for us, for our genes maybe, but not for us and what we might want for ourselves.

      January 23, 2012 at 5:07 pm |
    • RFBJR

      We already have a plan to improve our "species"...his name is Jesus. Why is being a follower of Jesus and what He teaches so far-fetched? Why not just get on your knees, confess your sin and ask Him to come into your life? It worked for me. He is true, He is a saviour, He is God, He is a healer, He is a Father, a brother a friend. Why not???? I mean seriously....why not? Why? Why? Why?

      January 24, 2012 at 10:21 am |
    • momof2

      Other species kill their undesirable young *after* birth, because they don't have the option of voluntary abortion. Isn't it nice that we have technology that saves both mother and child from suffering?

      January 27, 2012 at 1:36 am |
  10. gupsphoo

    I really don't understand why the religious right are so against abortion. The God of the Bible killed children and ordered the killing of children on multiple occasions. Perhaps Christians don't actually read their religious text.

    January 23, 2012 at 2:32 pm |
    • William Demuth

      Because children are just sheep for the cult.

      If they could convert German Shepard’s and Shiatsu’s, no dog would ever be gassed again.

      Mental Ponzi schemes require a fresh influx of victims to sustain themselves.

      I mean, why else would they insist they be born, but refuse to guarantee them even the basic necessities the day after they come into the world

      January 23, 2012 at 2:37 pm |
    • Anatomically Bombed

      They have no problem killing them as long as they are not Christians, and since they want to give the tiny cell's in my wifes belly a chance to grow up and become a Christian they need to take away my atheist wifes right to have some of her tiny cells removed in order to prevent burdening ourselves or others with 18+ years of responsibility. (Wifes not really pregnant but you get the point).

      January 23, 2012 at 2:41 pm |
    • Greg s

      But God can do that because....HES GOD!! We are just peons we cant do anything really but hump like wild animals and kill our children. In hindsight it might be better that the off spring of people with no compassion are being flushed down the toilet. It could mean some day there wont be any Liberals left!!!

      January 27, 2012 at 5:14 pm |
  11. Nonimus

    It all comes down to an immigration issue. Protect our borders, kept God out!

    God, not being "born," obviously can't be a "naturally born citizen." Additionally, He has no Visa to be in this country, just ask ICE. So get Him out of our country, immediately!
    (remove tongue from cheek : )

    January 23, 2012 at 2:31 pm |
    • William Demuth

      Plus he is a PALESTINIAN.

      He is probably gonna blow himself up on a bus!

      January 23, 2012 at 2:38 pm |
    • Anatomically Bombed

      I have always found it funny how so many Christians will look up at their churches version of Jesus on the cross and pray but would freak out if a brown skinned, bearded, long haired, robed middle eastern man came in and sat down beside them...

      January 23, 2012 at 2:48 pm |
    • Greg s

      Its his planet! He made it!

      January 27, 2012 at 5:16 pm |
    • Greg s

      because the man you just spoke of my have a bomb in his but....But bombs are in now you know! Allah Akabar!!!!

      January 27, 2012 at 5:18 pm |
  12. Doc Vestibule

    God would rather the children be killed after they're born.
    Psalm 137:8-9
    "O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us- he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."

    Samuel 15:3
    "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

    Revelation 2:22
    "I will strike her children dead."

    January 23, 2012 at 2:25 pm |
    • momoya

      Not to mention the number of miscarriages today. God is pretty good at it by now, he's aborted more than man ever has.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:43 pm |
    • SPA Knight

      So you guys believe that God is acting as a puppetmaster, controlling every action of the human race? The God I know gives us free will to choose my actions but it comes with responsibility and accountability for my actions. There cannot be unconditional love without complete free will. As a father, I can love my children, instruct them and encourage them to live a moral life but I cannot live their life. They will make choices that will result in consequences in their life but I will never stop loving them. As selfish children, we want freedom without responsibility and when things go wrong, we blame God for allowing it to happen.

      January 26, 2012 at 12:32 pm |
    • Greg s

      The bible can say anything when you take one sentence out of a scripture and use it as you will. Those who study the bible know what those scriptures are about and you obviously dont have a clue.

      January 27, 2012 at 5:22 pm |
  13. William Demuth

    Our abortion rate is tragicly low.

    Abortion goes up, crime goes down.

    Abortion goes up, welfare goes down.

    What we need both at home and abroad is a greatly INCREASED level of abortions.

    Stop reproducing like rats people! The Duggars and Octomom are the problem, not those who chose to abort.

    I am PRO ABORTION! in the truest sense of the word.

    January 23, 2012 at 2:23 pm |
    • liz

      William Demuth,
      You do not value life... I can't get over you. You make me feel like I am going to vomit. I am sorry but YOU are the problem with the world, not christians. Who's adopting in this world, bringing relief work to the hungry? Not someone who doesn't value life.

      February 7, 2012 at 1:21 am |
  14. SomeDude

    here's how I look at it. I have a child. That child is the delight of my life. If her mother had decided behind my back to have her aborted, that b-i-t-c-h would have suffered her own horrible, painful fate. When it comes right down to it, that child belongs to BOTH parents, not just the mother. Especially since abortion is used as birth control in this day and age so women can run around w-h-o-r-i-n-g around.

    January 23, 2012 at 2:01 pm |
    • Huh?

      "Especially since abortion is used as birth control in this day and age so women can run around w-h-o-r-i-n-g around."

      It takes 2 moron, so count yourself in that statement.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:03 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Do cite proof that abortion is used routinely by a significant number of women instead of contraception.

      Your 'wife' is imaginary and so's your 'child'.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:03 pm |
    • SomeDude

      @ huh: you're too stupid to actually respond to.

      @tomtom actually, no my child is NOT imaginary. You're one of the biggest idiots on the planet. I hope you get hit by a bus soon, w-h-o-r-e.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:06 pm |
    • SomeDude

      @tomtom: by the way, h-o-e-h-o-e... enjoy the reading. Took less than 5 minutes. One a link I can't read because I'm at work, the other I could.

      http://realchoice.0catch.com/library/weekly/aa062600a.htm

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1238612/Girls-using-abortion-birth-control.html

      January 23, 2012 at 2:08 pm |
    • Huh?

      "@ huh: you're too stupid to actually respond to."

      But you did so that makes you an idiot. LOL!

      January 23, 2012 at 2:11 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Try again, honey, and this time, cite real research, not some rag. Are you 15?

      You're not even an adult.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:11 pm |
    • Onthingisforsure

      Well one thing is for sure SomeDude will be burning in hell with the rest of you for all eternity, love those judgments.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:13 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      I think it's amusing to see a teenage troll threatening to murder the woman he claims he's married to, and that the fetus 'belongs' to both parents.

      Actually, some dummy, it doesn't. If a woman decides to terminate a pregnancy, you have nothing to say about it.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:14 pm |
    • SomeDude

      @huh: f_c-k off, loser.

      @tomtom: w-h-o-r-e.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:14 pm |
    • SomeDude

      I don't remember ever actually saying I was MARRIED to the w-h-o-r-e my daughter is unfortunate enough to have as an egg donor. Nice way to take things out of context for ad hominem attacks. But then again, that's all you air headed, female supremecist w-h-o-r-e-s can do, isn't it?

      January 23, 2012 at 2:17 pm |
    • momoya

      Powerful post, SomeDude. Because of it, I feel immense pity for your child.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:18 pm |
    • go4it

      SomeDude,
      Wow, you are obviously harboring some intense issues. I suggest you get some help, in private rather than venting on this blog.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:22 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You don't have a child. You're a high school dweeb.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:25 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @SomeDude

      You have some major issues with women that you need to work through. I'm actually starting to feel sorry for you daughter for having to be raise by someone that is so hateful toward others. You will most likely call me names or whatnot, just keep in mind that if you do all you will be doing is reinforcing your image as a hateful, idiotic, sad excuse for a human being.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:25 pm |
    • catholic engineer

      I have to agree. In our culture today, people say "where have all the fathers gone? " When a woman wants an abortion, the child's father is allowed no opinion. Now let that idea germinate for a couple of decades. Well, "Roe vs. Wade said that I had no part in it. So I"m outa here." The feminist Gloria Steinham said "a woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle." Considering the tidal wave of struggling single mom's, I wonder how Gloria's words are tasting in her mouth.

      There is an organization called Rachel's Vinyard, active in 22 countries. I believe it is more than just Catholic, but it helps women cope with the aftermath of abortion.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:27 pm |
    • fred

      wow, it is always refreshing to see atheist have normal discussion. Look out your morals are showing..............

      January 23, 2012 at 2:30 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      A recent study, quite a large one, was done on the issue of the "aftermath of abortion." It found that women who'd had an abortion were no more likely to suffer a mental illness like depression than women who hadn't terminated a pregnancy.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:30 pm |
    • I_get_it

      You chose that w-h-o-r-e, Dude... or did she get pregnant by sitting on the seat that you had occupied on the bus?

      Nice if you are supporting your child, though, but there is some concern regarding the ill-will that you might be imparting to her.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:32 pm |
    • Huh?

      "Look out your morals are showing"

      Yeah only a Christian would think atheists don't have morals, what an idiot.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:33 pm |
    • BRC

      @Catholic Engineer,
      You won't find the man making the decision because it's not our body and it's not ours to make. In the end, it's the woman's body/life that has to go through the pregnancy. If she is unwilling or unable to do that, then that is her call, just because a man really wants a child or a family doesn't mean he gets to force her to go through with it. If she won't have a child, adn the mand wants one, then maybe that relationship has met its end, and he should find someone with the same goals and beliefs (though I would say that if he just leaves instead of staying to provide comfort and ensure that she is okay he is a coward, but people's beliefs do affect their actions).

      Men don't own women, and having a child is not a right.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:37 pm |
    • OK

      It's stupid posts like SomeDude that makes me want to make it mandatory that men like him have a vasectomy so they can't reproduce.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:40 pm |
    • fred

      Huh?
      The four letter words were between atheist and atheist that just earlier claimed they were just as moral as Chriatians. I am sure you have met some kind loving atheists. Before God showed me the truth I was a real nice guy so there is the proof you are looking for that atheists have a soul whether they know it or not.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:45 pm |
    • SomeDude

      go4it: we all have issues. If you don't have issues by 35 you haven't lived life right.

      @h-o-e-h-o-e: Why, because I don't kiss your worthless a-s-s? You're just some random w-h-o-r-e who probably race mixes for fun and profit. Go back to your street corner.

      @hawaiiguest: As much as I hate her egg donor, I do not speak ill toward my daughter. My issues and hatred are my problems, not hers. All I do when I see my daughter is raise her with love and be daddy.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:47 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Honey, you have today off from school because it's a professional day for the teachers. Better get off here and finish that report. It's due tomorrow.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:56 pm |
    • SomeDude

      @h-o-e-h-o-e: you have to be the stupidest s-l-u-t on the planet. Don't tell me: you either f_ck n-i-g-g-e-r-s or you are one. That's all I can figure. I'm 35 years old. I haven't been in school in 17 years. I work for a living. I support and care for my daughter, unlike you, who probably murders children because they're not the right gender or black enough.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:58 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Nope. You're a troll.

      January 23, 2012 at 3:02 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @SomeDude

      I'm glad that you care for your daughter, but just keep in mind that children always pick up on everything about their parents. You may not show anything but love to her but your reactions and relationships with others affect her in ways you may never expect.

      January 23, 2012 at 3:05 pm |
    • Huh?

      "God showed me the truth I was a real nice guy so there is the proof you are looking for that atheists have a soul whether they know it or not."

      Just because some believe in a God and a soul doesn't make the person moral either idiot, look at the priests that molest children. Plus when you factor religious people have killed more people on this planet your argument becomes moot.

      January 23, 2012 at 3:08 pm |
    • So

      "That's all I can figure. I'm 35 years old. I haven't been in school in 17 years. I work for a living. I support and care for my daughter, unlike you, who probably murders children because they're not the right gender or black enough."

      The Christian God killed his only son, so should a woman have the right to choose.

      January 23, 2012 at 3:13 pm |
    • fred

      Huh?
      When are you going to stop using the religion kills argument? Men kill yes even atheists like Stalin, Mao, Poll Pot kill millions so your use of that argument is dead as are all the people killed by atheists. Atheists with only 2% of the population at the time of Stalin killed millions. If you want to play numbers then facts show atheists 7 times more likely to demand mass killings than are religeous men. This math is simple given the vast numbers by which believers outnumber non believers (i.e. forget the head count of the dead cause I know your next argument will be communism kills not atheist)

      January 23, 2012 at 3:16 pm |
    • Huh?

      "When are you going to stop using the religion kills argument?"

      Religion is still killing idiot.

      January 23, 2012 at 3:19 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      You name people who were atheists that kill people. But which ones killed in the name of atheism? And please provide links to verified quotes from those people. There have been many that have killed in the name of religion, and that is the basis of the argument.

      January 23, 2012 at 3:20 pm |
    • fred

      So
      Jesus gave his life freely it was not taken from him. Jesus gave his life so all could come to glory of God. Atheists cannot say they did not know. They know because the cross of Jesus is what they deny. They know because of all the excuses they make up and hide behind. If it was not true and did not hit home then just go be an atheist and love life. Let Christians love God and you can go love your godlessness. That is the choice God or godlessness. It is not complecated, it is not confusing.
      Jesus made it clear with the criminal on his left that mocked Jesus as he hung and the other criminal that said "stop it do you not fear God, this man is innocent we deserve this he does not.......looking at Jesus he said remember me" That is all it took for Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise, to the to other Jesus said not a word.
      See, some hearts will never change and clearly reflect their character. So what your a mocker of Christ or perhaps one that knows the truth.

      January 23, 2012 at 3:25 pm |
    • So

      “Jesus gave his life freely it was not taken from him. Jesus gave his life so all could come to glory of God.”

      No, your God planned to kill his son so it would have an excuse to allow people into heaven since his other methods weren’t working.

      If it was not true and did not hit home then just go be an atheist and love life”

      No, it’ doesn’t work that way, since delusional people like you try to make laws that infringe on our lives. Like making abortion illegal.

      “See, some hearts will never change and clearly reflect their character. So what your a mocker of Christ or perhaps one that knows the truth.”

      The mockers of Christ are the Christians themselves, they are nothing like their Christ the proof is the state of the world. Christians are just as greedy, selfish and godless as those you pass judgment on, that’s the point. I am sure fred if we were to really look at your life it’s full of greed, selfishness, godlessness as the next.

      January 23, 2012 at 3:34 pm |
    • fred

      So
      “your God planned to kill his son so it would have an excuse to allow people into heaven since his other methods weren’t working.”
      =>not actually, Gods view is a perspective where time is viewed from different point as God is outside of our time limitations. I was not plan B. The Bible written in our sequential time periods is simply the playing out of what already is. God does not need an excuse to all So and So into the Kingdom. The plan has always been to bring about a group of people that do not reject God rather love God with their own free will. The unity with God cannot be forced yet the simple product of a heart that is like Christ.
      “delusional people like you try to make laws that infringe on our lives. Like making abortion illegal.”
      =>at some point there would need to be a law that says ok this is a good age to stop tossing life in the trash. You want to make that decision without reference to soul as it keeps things nice and clean. Man will always justify the taking of life. Hitler’s doctors as well as Stalin’s used men for their cruel experiments and justified their behavior.
      “The mockers of Christ are the Christians themselves, they are nothing like their Christ the proof is the state of the world.”
      =>no, the Bible is clear reflection that few people since the time of Adam have not had a heart inclined towards God.
      “look at your life it’s full of greed, selfishness, godlessness as the next.”
      =>no, there is a clear difference in who I was before and after God came into my life. I make mistakes but, throughout the day I focus on helping others.
      Yes, there are probably many atheists that because of who they are do everything Christ asked with the exception they reject God / Jesus.

      January 23, 2012 at 3:56 pm |
    • So

      “ The unity with God cannot be forced yet the simple product of a heart that is like Christ.”

      It doesn’t matter the excuses you make, your God still killed it’s son.

      “at some point there would need to be a law that says ok this is a good age to stop tossing life in the trash. You want to make that decision without reference to soul as it keeps things nice and clean. Man will always justify the taking of life. Hitler’s doctors as well as Stalin’s used men for their cruel experiments and justified their behavior.”

      Till there is actual proof of a soul then that would alter the decision. But since there is no such thing as a soul, the decision will be nice and neat.

      “no, the Bible is clear reflection that few people since the time of Adam have not had a heart inclined towards God.”

      LOL! You’re going back to Adam and I was talking about your Christ. You are so full of excuses it’s hilarious.

      “. I make mistakes but, throughout the day I focus on helping others.”

      That’s why you waste so much time on here instead of actually doing it. More excuses, you ‘ve had so much practice at it you don’t recognize it. LOL!

      January 23, 2012 at 4:10 pm |
    • fred

      So
      It was mans sin with Adam and the sin in man at the time of Jesus that not only killed but, mocked, humiliated, tortured Christ. Given that Jesus sits at the right hand of God and still offers you hope eternal says much about the heart of God and the heart of man.
      Why do you hate Christ that you would heap more insults ? How are you different from those that passed by the Cross?

      January 23, 2012 at 4:41 pm |
    • So

      “It was mans sin with Adam and the sin in man at the time of Jesus that not only killed but, mocked, humiliated, tortured Christ.”

      So your religion is your God got all pissed off at Adam for eating an apple. LOL! Oh…wait didn’t your God murder everyone off then start again with Noah. LOL! So it's Noah's fault too, more excuses coming our way folks, wait for it.

      “Why do you hate Christ that you would heap more insults ? How are you different from those that passed by the Cross?”

      The cross doesn’t exists in this time period, plus I am not a murderer or a thief. LOL!

      January 23, 2012 at 5:23 pm |
    • Greg s

      I bet if a study was done on the mothers of Aborted babies they would find the mothers were Liberals. I say we need to push this abortion issue because that might mean my conservative friends that there are now 43,000,000. less liberals in this country then there would have been if Abortion woulld not have passed the supreme court, In fact Conservatives might have had the forsight to see this very thing back in 1973. Hmmm

      January 27, 2012 at 5:29 pm |
  15. Doc Vestibule

    If abortion should be illegal, what punshiments should be meted out for Onanism?
    After all, God condemns that as sin becuase it is denying potential life...

    January 23, 2012 at 1:58 pm |
    • I_get_it

      Yes, and since "God", in his benevolence and wisdom, has "given" us the capability to pinpoint ovulation, every egg should be collected and utilized to produce another worshipper for "Him"...!?

      January 23, 2012 at 2:08 pm |
    • Pastor Jason

      I think your interpretation of the Onan story in Genesis is very flawed. Onan was not cursed by God b/c he spilled his semen but b/c he denied his brother an heir and denied Tamar a son and protector. The issue was injustice and not birth control. I am a pro-life pastor. The key difference: An unborn child is a living human being, with its own unique DNA signature. It is a living, growing life with a mind of its own and a body of its own. Semen is simply a body cell produced by a man that has the potential, only when united with an egg, to produce human life. Also, while I am a pastor and I believe in God's Word, I do not advocate for legislation based solely on God's Word but also on principles of science, human rights, etc.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:19 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @pastor jason
      The Catholics would disagree with your interpretation of the Onan myth.
      Is that story not the primary reason why they are against any form of contraception and why they believe every sperm is sacred (to quote Monty Python)?

      January 24, 2012 at 8:02 am |
  16. The Central Scrutinizer

    Women don't deserve the right to choose whether they should murder a baby or not.

    January 23, 2012 at 1:49 pm |
    • Amratilia

      Then you don't deserve a choice either, you scm-suking idiot.

      January 23, 2012 at 1:57 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Baby = born. That is why infanticide is illegal.
      Embryo = NOT BABY
      If we are to deny women the right to purge a cluster of cells that holds the potential to be a fully formed human from their body, then men should be incarcerated for mast/urbation.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:00 pm |
    • J.W

      That would only be true if birth control was illegal I think Doc. They are just talking about when the sperm has already fertilized the egg. Only the crazy people want that to happen though.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:05 pm |
    • Staring Horse with Tongue Sticking Out

      CS, you don't seem like yourself today! Perhaps you should talk to Donald.

      January 23, 2012 at 4:08 pm |
  17. Staring Horse with Tongue Sticking Out

    Nearly all abortions take place in the first trimester, when a fetus cannot exist independent of the mother. As it is attached by the placenta and umbilical cord, its health is dependent on her health, and cannot be regarded as a separate ent.i.ty as it cannot exist outside her womb.

    The concept of personhood is different from the concept of human life. Human life occurs at conception, but fertilized eggs used for in vitro fertilization are also human lives and those not implanted are routinely thrown away. Is this murder, and if not, then how is abortion murder?

    January 23, 2012 at 1:47 pm |
    • Amratilia

      Life does not begin at conception you fcking fool.

      January 23, 2012 at 1:57 pm |
    • catholic engineer

      I took care of both my parents as they lived out their last days in a state of dimentia. At what point did they pass from being persons to merely "human life"? There's also the concept of a fetus being a "potential" person. Staring Horse, you turn a good sentence so I assume you are less potential and more real. Using the "potential" argument, would it be less of a crime to end your life than the lives of my parents?

      January 23, 2012 at 2:02 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Your parents had rights under the law as people who were born. Developmentally challenged people have rights under the same laws.

      Fetuses do not. Even Scalia, the most conservative of the Justices on the SCOTUS, acknowledges that fact.

      You don't get to dictate what someone else does with her body or its contents unless she is infringing on others' rights.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:10 pm |
    • Lycidas

      "Fetuses do not. Even Scalia, the most conservative of the Justices on the SCOTUS, acknowledges that fact."

      And if the SCOTUS all of a sudden changed their position and said that fetuses did have rights...would you change your mind?

      January 23, 2012 at 2:12 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      No. When do you imagine that's going to occur, Lyce?

      I suppose now Lice will cite slavery as proof of his point.

      Unfortunately for you Lice, a woman's rights cannot be abrogated in favor of a fetus. When you figure out how to maintain her rights and still force her to continue a pregnancy, do let Russ know. He'll be in touch with me.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:17 pm |
    • Lycidas

      @Tommisa, Tommisa, the Piper's Daughter

      "No. When do you imagine that's going to occur, Lyce?"

      No? As in no your opinion would not be changed by a SCOTUS rendering? Then why do you think anyone cares when you cite the SCOTUS against them?
      When will it occur? No idea...it was a theoretical question. Could just as easy be a never.

      "I suppose now Lice will cite slavery as proof of his point."

      Nope...hadn't planned on it.

      "Unfortunately for you Lice, a woman's rights cannot be abrogated in favor of a fetus."

      Not yet. If certain changes within our society would happen...would you really want to bet that it "cannot" happen?

      "When you figure out how to maintain her rights and still force her to continue a pregnancy, do let Russ know. He'll be in touch with me."

      Don't rightly care about Russ but I am curious...if a woman takes a blade to her throat or downs a few dozens sleeping pills, is it legal to stop her or try to save her? Isn't she the boss of her own body, life and when she would want to end it?

      January 23, 2012 at 2:25 pm |
    • OK

      ".if a woman takes a blade to her throat or downs a few dozens sleeping pills, is it legal to stop her or try to save her? Isn't she the boss of her own body, life and when she would want to end it?"

      So you are equating mental illness of suicide to abortion, what a stretch.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:29 pm |
    • Lycidas

      OK- "So you are equating mental illness of suicide to abortion, what a stretch."

      You do not think that a person can rationally commit suicide? I think you might want to rethink that a bit.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:31 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Lice, do cite any laws which make suicide illegal. Are there any that require someone to stop a person from committing suicide?

      January 23, 2012 at 2:32 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Lice, did I say it cannot happen? I asked you when it would, since you seem to believe it will.

      I repeat, unless you can figure out how to make women continue a pregnancy without infringing on their rights, abortion will continue to be legal. If you can figure out how to carry her fetus yourself, have at it.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:34 pm |
    • Lycidas

      "Lice, do cite any laws which make suicide illegal. Are there any that require someone to stop a person from committing suicide?"

      Ok Tommisa...Wackwitz v. Roy where suicide was considered a common law crime.
      And Section 5150 is a section of the California Welfare and Insti_tutions Code has it where one has to stop a person from committing suicide. But that is mostly for medical ppl.

      Getting back on the point...their are laws and cultural norms that does indeed says that a woman cannot do anything she wants with her body. Even if she is in her rational mind. So to imply that a fetus's rights (in theory) cannot take precident over that of the mother would be folly.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:41 pm |
    • Lycidas

      "unless you can figure out how to make women continue a pregnancy without infringing on their rights, abortion will continue to be legal. If you can figure out how to carry her fetus yourself, have at it."

      All I could think of is to have it that to damage yourself would be considered a mental illness and takes the medical power away from her. I would not agree with this type of thinking but could see some try it.

      Another could be that if the biological father's rights be considered in conjunction with a fetus having rights bestowed upon it by the govt. Combined, they could over ride the mother's right to abortion.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:45 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Under what conditions do you think you can force someone to continue a pregnancy against her will without abrogating her rights under the law? You're daft if you think that's going to happen in this country.

      Suppose we have the laws you want and a fetus has equal rights what happens if a woman is carrying a fetus and it's determined by her doctor that the fetus needs surgery before viability, but the woman does not want such surgery to be performed. Under your scenario, she could be forced to have this surgery against her will. Under what circa m stances are citizens of this country forced to give up their rights in that way? No one can be forced to donate a kidney, even in a matter of life and death, yet you think that somehow women be forced to remain pregnant against their will?

      January 23, 2012 at 2:49 pm |
    • OK

      "You do not think that a person can rationally commit suicide? "

      Committing suicide is not a rational act by most standards especially since suicide in and of itself is considered an irrational act.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:50 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Since males do not bear the risks to their health that pregnancy entails and are not the ones carrying the fetus, it is unlikely they're going to be granted rights to a fetus. Nor is it likely that a fetus will be shown to have equal rights with the woman, for the reasons I've already stated.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:54 pm |
    • Staring Horse with Tongue Sticking Out

      catholic engineer
      You seem to have missed my point. Naturally your parents are people and I guess it is up to you if you want to me die versus someone else. Kind of a dumb question.

      January 23, 2012 at 3:25 pm |
    • Lycidas

      Tomissa- "You're daft if you think that's going to happen in this country."

      I never said it was going to happen you dolt. You asked for an example...I provided.

      January 23, 2012 at 3:38 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Have you provided any evidence that you understood the argument that would prevent it from occurring?

      January 23, 2012 at 4:16 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      U mad, Lice?

      January 23, 2012 at 4:21 pm |
    • Lycidas

      Nope..not mad at all. Sorry that I'm not on here all the time to fuel your need to be noticed.

      January 23, 2012 at 4:25 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh, but you are.

      Glad to see you're okay. I know it hurts when you lose an argument.

      January 23, 2012 at 4:29 pm |
    • Lycidas

      Tomissa....hun....what was their to win? Just because I provided a different pov does not mean I was out to win (whatever you thought could be won) anything or that you had anything to lose.

      And I am no more mad than you are arrogent. Care to prove that statement wrong? ;)
      Now if you are done with the childish games....

      I provided the info you asked for about suicide you didn't know existed but ignirantly asked for...you are welcome.

      Your mind would not change if the SCOTUS ever changed it's opinion on the topic of abortion. If that is the case, it is rather pointless to put out the SCOTUS rulings to justify your position on abortion beyond anything in a legal sense. Obviously the SCOTUS rulings would not be very convincing to a pro-life person.

      "Suppose we have the laws you want and a fetus has equal rights..."
      I have yet to say what I want..you are guessing. You want me to take the opposite side of the debate to satisfy some odd little yearning to be proven right about something. Hun...chill.

      January 23, 2012 at 4:38 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Your creative spellings crack me up.

      January 23, 2012 at 5:10 pm |
    • Lycidas

      Oh oh...I meant "ignorantly" instead of "ignirantly". I don't want to anger Tomissa with a quickie spelling error.

      January 23, 2012 at 5:11 pm |
    • Lycidas

      If the only counters you have are pointing out spelling errors...you got a long way to go hun. Lol.

      January 23, 2012 at 5:12 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh, did you think spelling and grammatical error are the only errors I found?

      January 23, 2012 at 5:14 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Edit: errors.

      Lice, you hardly need to state your opinion on this issue. It's fairly easy to guess what view you'd take.

      January 23, 2012 at 5:16 pm |
    • Ummm

      "Your creative spellings crack me up."

      Kinda of reminds you of freds posts doesn't it. ;-)

      January 23, 2012 at 5:17 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      It's actually rather disappointing.

      Guess Lice's irritation is showing.

      He finally had to shoot his wad–see the next page.

      January 23, 2012 at 5:23 pm |
    • fred

      Ummmm
      If you see one of freds posts you better hook your horse up that one unless you want a theist to take you for a ride

      January 23, 2012 at 5:24 pm |
    • Ummm

      "If you see one of freds posts you better hook your horse up that one unless you want a theist to take you for a ride"

      Are you drinking again, you sure sound drunk.

      January 23, 2012 at 5:26 pm |
    • So

      "If you see one of freds posts you better hook your horse up that one unless you want a theist to take you for a ride"

      Fred's already made an ass out of himself on here with his delusional rants that have proven wrong by atheists , so he's talking from experience.

      January 23, 2012 at 5:31 pm |
    • fred

      Ummmm
      Their are one Fred and two freds posting on this site. Da one with gamma and speling pobrems are not me. thnak your four noticing.

      January 23, 2012 at 5:35 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      And Lice is following in his footsteps.

      January 23, 2012 at 5:37 pm |
    • fred

      So
      You have read your Bible well and know that both an ass and serpent are capable of speech. One you should have listened to the other you probably did.

      January 23, 2012 at 5:47 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Which one are you, herbie?

      January 23, 2012 at 5:52 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Here I am!

      January 23, 2012 at 5:55 pm |
    • fred

      Tom Tom
      I have not heard from herbie in while but neither of the freds sound like herbie. I am the smart one because I did not believe in evolution long before the other freds figured out man made it all up. Perhaps it is time for a name change worthy of my knowledge and expert tease. I will ask the Serpent what he thinks.

      January 23, 2012 at 6:00 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”

      January 23, 2012 at 6:02 pm |
    • Hiss Hiss the serpents son

      Tom Tom
      Take a bite of that apple it will make you wise like fred.

      January 23, 2012 at 6:05 pm |
    • Lycidas

      Good grief. ok...to the real Tommisa...

      1. You have found no errors in my argument. In that, except for relying on a fallicious attempt to condemn my arguments on errors in spelling. Heck, you have screwed up spelling on here many times so what's your point?
      2. You really have no idea what my views on abortion are. It's cute that you think you do

      January 23, 2012 at 6:10 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Ok Lycidas – I'll be Tom, Tom, the Piper's son one last time (today). What are your views on abortion?

      January 23, 2012 at 6:14 pm |
    • Lycidas

      To whoever you think you are right now....to each their own.
      I don't care for abortion but under the laws of the land....women can have them. It's on them.

      January 23, 2012 at 6:17 pm |
    • fred

      Lycidas
      Tommisa has eaten of the apple so I must warn you that any thing he says does not represent the management or its staff here in paradise gardens.

      January 23, 2012 at 6:17 pm |
    • Milton

      you got her gender wrong

      January 23, 2012 at 6:18 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Lycidas, that's a well-considered position on abortion and I commend you for it. I may disagree with your opinion but I will defend to the death your right to hold it.

      January 23, 2012 at 6:24 pm |
    • Hiss Hiss the serpents son

      Gender? heck I hardly know her

      January 23, 2012 at 6:24 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      To the real Lice, you did misunderstand the argument I made, and you continue to do so. I asked you to restate it; if you cannot and continue to infer that I compared a drop of blood with a fetus, then, yes, you have made a mistake.

      January 23, 2012 at 6:26 pm |
  18. momoya

    Why not Zoidberg... I mean.. birth control? The population on this planet is unsustainable as it is; the Levitt Freakonomics theory shows just how beneficial it has been for America that it has allowed abortion. I don't know if Mohler is correct when he states that, "young people can now see millions that are missing from their own generation," but it sure rings false. Women need to have the legal ability to choose whether or not to carry and deliver their own fetus; men need to have the legal ability to declare their wish for an abortion, and be absolved of any responsibility toward the fetus or subsequent child.

    January 23, 2012 at 1:30 pm |
  19. Bo

    Since Roe vs. Wade this has been a very, very touchy issue. But I will give you a personal experience. We, my wife and I, did best we could to prevent having another child, using the latest and most effective methods. We felt we could not afford another child. After going to a womens clinic to learn why wife wasn’t feeling so well, we learned that the methods we used had failed, she was going to have another baby. Isn’t this a very good reason to terminate it? We don’t want a baby we can’t afford! As a matter of fact, the doctor tried to talk us into terminating. She, the doctor, used all the reasons she could think of to persuade us that it would be a good thing and that would be safe, she didn’t seem to want to accept our simple “No!” Later, my wife and I wondered, How many women had this doctor, with no compunctions , persuaded to terminate? Where and what had happened to the hypocritical creed that she had taken when becoming a doctor? “To do no harm.” We now call our beautiful and wonderful daughter our “miracle baby”, we love her dearly. As for affording another child, we’re OK, things worked out. There needs to be a better reason than, “I (we) don’t want this baby.” Oh! BTW, what has happened to the perversions of both men and women, young and old due to this obscene law. “Oh well,” she says, “if anything happens, I can terminate.” Never mind the rights of the unborn who has no choice! This, to me, The Right To Life" is not about the “rights” of a woman, but the “rights” of a baby.

    January 23, 2012 at 1:20 pm |
    • Thornbill

      Well, here's my personal experience. My mom didn't want kids, but is Catholic, and decided she had no choice. Some people shouldn't be parents. To all of you who say 'I'll bet you are glad your mom decided to give birth'..... I am not glad. It would have been far better for her to use birth control or abort. We never would have known the difference. Instead, we got a childhood of hell. We were poor, hungry, and resented.
      I'm so sick of the pro-life people who made it seem like every baby lives in sunshine and happiness. You want to be pro life? Great! Start by paying attention to the kids who are already on this earth. Some of them could really use your help.

      January 23, 2012 at 1:43 pm |
    • catholic engineer

      @ Thornbill I know exactly what you are saying. After a terrifying childhood, I often wished that my mother had aborted. But I know quite a few people raised by monsters who themselves lived very valuable lives. And in a funny twist, if you live out a good life, you've kind of redeemed the live of the abuser. That's my purely subjective view, but there it is.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:08 pm |
    • Thornbill

      Catholic Engineer, Thank you for your very kind response. I agree with you, and have moved on with my life. Unfortunately, several siblings have not been so fortunate. I simply don't think we should be forcing people to bring more children into this world unless and until we have a better safety net for children once they are born. It just seems callous and myopic.

      January 23, 2012 at 4:20 pm |
  20. Men who support abortions are Francesco Schettino's

    booooooo

    January 23, 2012 at 1:09 pm |
    • Costa Concordia

      Cowards!

      January 23, 2012 at 1:11 pm |
    • BRC

      Or it could be that the men don't necessarily support abortion, they support an individual's right to control their own lives and bodies, and they support the woman in their lives who make these difficult decisions. But right, that sounds cowardly.

      January 23, 2012 at 1:13 pm |
    • we mourn

      ~51 Million deaths and counting since Roe Vs Wade....

      January 23, 2012 at 1:22 pm |
    • The Bobinator

      > ~51 Million deaths and counting since Roe Vs Wade....

      Versus the billions that have died because of God's poor design of our female's reproductive organs and process.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:03 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      And suppose all 51 million of those had been born? What do you imagine would have happened to them?

      Did you know that since the legalization of abortion crime rates have steadily dropped? Did you know that quite a number of researchers believe that there is a connection?

      Are you willing to adopt even one of the children now languishing in foster care?

      Are you willing to pay more in taxes to support an additional 51 million children's education? Housing?

      Because many of those pregnancies were to young girls and women who had no means of supporting a child and no desire to do so.

      January 23, 2012 at 2:07 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.