By Aaron Cooper, CNN
(CNN) - Passengers on Alaska Airlines will no longer get a free Psalm with their meal.
On Wednesday, the airline announced it is ending its more than 30-year tradition of including printed cards with short Bible verses during meal service.
“I will be glad and rejoice in you; I will sing praise to your name O most high,” was written on one card, over an image of foggy blue mountains. Another card featured these words over a beach at sunset: "Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good; His love endures forever.”
The cards have been distributed on trays with Alaska Airlines meals since the 1970s, according to airline spokeswoman Bobbie Egan. Since 2006, only passengers in First Class on longer Alaska Airlines flights have been served meals, so only a small percent of passengers received a card.
“This difficult decision was not made lightly,” the airline’s top executives said an email to frequent passengers. “We believe it's the right thing to do in order to respect the diverse religious beliefs and cultural attitudes of all our customers and employees.”
“We also know some of you consider the cards to be a tradition that reflects your own spiritual beliefs,” the email said. “At the same time, we've heard from many of you who believe religion is inappropriate on an airplane, and some are offended when we hand out the cards.”
Kathy Hosford, of Dyea, Alaska told CNN Affiliate that ““I take the time to read them. It really tells me the airline cares about the people sitting there.”
Others disagree. “Religious attitudes do vary,” Egan says, and “a large percent of residents in markets that we do serve on the West Coast say religion is not important to them.”
“We have been keeping track over the recent years and we are receiving more complaints than compliments” says Egan. Between 1998 and 2002 they received 242 complaints and 141 compliments about the cards.
The idea to distribute the cards in the first place came from a marketing executive who borrowed the idea from another carrier as a way to differentiate Alaska’s service, according to the airline’s statement.
But that view has now changed. “A business that aspires to be diverse and inclusive shouldn't have a religious agenda. Religious beliefs are deeply personal and vary greatly among our customers” Egan said in an emailed statement.
The decision to eliminate the cards was made last fall, she says, and takes effect on February 1. No decision yet about what to do with the leftovers.
Oh the day when the pledge of allegiance is taken out.... wait never mind... already occurring. Awsome!
Where? Show us you have any idea what you are talking about.
20 years ago, my teacher cried when I wouldn't recite the Pledge.
I stood, faced the flag and placed my hand over my heart, but wouldn't say a word.
When she singled me out, I reminded her that I was Canadian and my family a guest of her government.
But she was sure that I owed her country a debt of allegiance.
The kids around me gave a daily, rote recital – seemingly pronouncing the syllables but not understanding the words.
I think a lot of prayer is like that.
How many "hail mary"s have been recited without conviction? How many bedtime prayers mumbled without feeling? How many condemnations with a fiery, accusing finger uttered without real motivation?
Keep your faith personal. Inspire your children with it, but let other people inspire their children in their own ways.
Don't let obsequious submission and the relative comfort offered in recompense be the driving factor in your life.
actually, that wouldnt be a bad idea. when i was a kid i used to hate pledging my allegiance to ANY flag. i dont have any allegiance to a corporation whos pilfering my ss money as a pyramid scheme and making rich people richer.. yeah, every morning i stand here with my hand over my heart, and pledge my allegiance to the flag.. what a bunch of bs
Hey Bob's friend, I know nothing said here will change your mind about your imaginary supernatural friend, but by quoting a book written by people who didn't even know the subject they were writing about, and which contradicts itself over and over again, AND was written believing the end of the world would occur in their lifetimes is downright frightening. Atheists don't hate god, or bob if that is the name you give your friend, we just think bob, or god could clear this whole thing up if he could show his birth certificate and prove he is here legally.
Why do atheists not believe in entropy and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics?
Interesting, I'm an atheist, and a physics major, and I can say fully well that I 'believe' in the entropy in the sense that I am convinced entropy is a necessary fact if we assume statistics, well, exist. Statistical mechanics gives us a pretty good understanding of the laws of thermodynamics, atheists and theists alike, if they're moderately well educated in physics, accepts the 2nd law as true simply by virtue of it being demonstrated.
Andrew, if you accept them, then why do you ignore the logical conclusion?
What 'logical conclusion'? Why do I get the feeling you're about to play armchair physicist having NO understanding of the actual subject and will paint a really atrocious strawman of entropy?
Listen, unless you've taken statistical mechanics, you are not equipped to discuss this subject with me. You cannot make claims about physics if you haven't taken the requisite courses in the first place.
Don't you just love it when christians who barely passed a 2nd grade Science class throws around science terms trying to impress others who actually know what science is?
LOL. Yes, when unable to have a sensible discussion, begin absurd accusations. B.S and M.S, with plenty of PH higher level courses.
Please explain organisms (note the same root as organized), life, and the even more critically, conscience in the context of the universe's required march towards randomness.
BS and MS don't qualify you to talk about statistical mechanics. As I said, you need a background in PHYSICS for that. You could, say, have a synthetic chemistry background which could give you a BS and MS and still not give you the remotest knowledge of entropy other than a couple key phrases when learning about how catalysts work.
And, naturally, you ask a question that paints a strawman that indeed would indicate you don't really know any physics in the first place. Global entropy is always increasing, but that doesn't mean local entropy doesn't decrease. The whole point of thermodynamics is to look at heat transfer, where if you pump energy into a system, you can get a decrease in entropy. It's how a refrigerator works.
The earth is not a closed system, it gains energy from the sun. That means that life can organize by taking energy from the sun, and while global or universal entropy will always increase (as the universe undergoes a slow process towards heat death), on earth, you can still get areas of very low entropy and highly organized systems. You're treating the earth as a closed system. I don't understand why. You may claim to have a BS and MS, but you're demonstrating very little knowledge of even basic thermodynamics, let alone statistical mechanics (which is by far the more important subject as it is the fundamental root of thermodynamics)
If atheism was an untenable conclusion based just on thermodynamics, you'd have a hard time explaining why Feynman was an atheist, unless you somehow argue you have a better grasp on statistical mechanics than that man did.
Actually it's you who sounds like you're still in school. And that may be what you mean when referring to yourself as "a physic major," rather than a physics grad. That's not uncommon, where students tend to consider themselves experts in a subject once they've finished a course. A word of advice, which may serve you well – a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Nuclear physics and engineering degrees, among others.
"The earth is not a closed system,..."
Dude, the UNIVERSE is closed. Of course localized and micro-systems can certainly, but temporarily, "defy" entropy. But you have to explain what I've asked you to. Perhaps a Doctoral thesis, if you ever get that far.
I'm not a graduate for another three months, thanks for noticing. Because I'm still a student, I'm actually rather good at knowing what I'm well versed on, versus what I'm poorly versed on.
For example, if you wanted to discuss the merits of quantum loop gravity, I'd be well in over my head because I hardly have an understanding of general relativity. I still don't know how to take a basic covariant derivative, and my understanding of differential geometry is lacking to say the least.
I know exactly the limits of areas I feel comfortable discussing versus the areas I'm not comfortable discussing, because in class we tend to also learn what we don't know yet. I may not know how to take a covariant derivative, but I at least know the importance of them when dealing with transformations in GR rather than SR. However, it is because I know what those concepts are and how they work in more robust frameworks that I'm also aware of how much I can comment on special relativity (which is very easy because comma derivatives are the same as semicolon derivatives and they don't require the Levi-Civita connection)
The great thing about being a student is you are immersed both in what you know, but you also get to find out what you don't know, and what areas are too specified for you to approach.
And that's the beauty of this discussion, that you haven't offered anything even remotely beyond the scope of what I have had an education on. You're saying things that don't require a grad school education to correct, nor do they require a prof to correct. Hell, you're saying things that don't even require a 4th or 3rd year to correct, these are well within second year concepts. I am perfectly willing to admit when I'm no longer able to comment, but you've given me so far nothing that I am not well equipped for.
As to the universe being closed, that's... not really relevant, and a bit more of an open question than you seem to indicate, at least from a cursory view of the cosmological constant, but still, somewhat irrelevant.
I'm sorry though, what kind of answer do you want? If entropy can decrease locally, (as in, say, 'on earth') and life can then organize thanks to the input of energy from a source (as in, say, 'the sun'), then why are we supposed to have a problem with "life, and the even more critically, conscience in the context of the universe's required march towards randomness."
The universe will continue towards heat death, but that will take a very long time... life, consciousness, they won't be around when the universe has too high entropy to support even basic atoms... so what exactly is the problem? There's lower entropy now than there is going to be tomorrow, and on this 'required march towards randomness' it seems perfectly reasonable for there to be some pockets where life could form prior to heat death.
Congratulations on your upcoming graduation. That's quite an accomplishment and best of luck on your next phase of life.
"I know exactly the limits of areas I feel comfortable discussing versus...." Seriously, and without any attempt to be dismissive, anyone who states this, frankly proves their own assertion wrong. In effect, not knowing what you don't know (none of us do), leaves us ill-able to know where that boundary is. You'll appreciate this and hopefully it's easy for you to figure out....say you're measuring a cup of water and it's at a constant temperature and remains so, and you make a natural conclusion that no energy is being applied or removed (or at least they are to an equal degree). Why would one come to that wrong conclusion in this case? Because they don't know what they don't know.
If USA is not Christian, then why does the government favor Christians with Christian holidays (Good Friday in 12 states), Christmas / Easter closing, Sunday Blue Laws, In God We Trust etc. etc. ??!!!
Whoever complained about the wonderful quotes, I HOPE GUD WILL PUNISH THEM SO MUCH THAT THEY WILL FORGET WHEN THEY WERE BORN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Easy on the coffee sport!
Nice. Your god sounds like a real sweatheart.
Good for Alaska Airlines, wasting paper on meaningless phrases is hurting our environment. Promoting a specific religion is bad business Even the posters name shows how bigotted they are. If your "god" only cares about a minority of people on earth simple because they raised as christians and would cast those aside that did not follow christian teachings, he is not a god worth believing in anyway.
Not passing out prayer cards doen't offend the prayers, it offends the non-prayers, the ones who pray and expect. They will always be let down because sometimes the answer to a prayer is NO. :) Peace be with us all. Amen ;)
Haha, our reasons for prayer are usually selfish, we need to accept God's will and not whine that we don't have our way.
If I was the president of the USA I would enforce non-Christians to convert to Christianity, or be kicked out from the country. I'm serious because they are waaaaaaaay to much trying to control and make this nation more secular, which is terrible
The United States IS secular. That is the American way. Seperation of church and state. It is brilliant and we are lucky and we MUST preserve our way of life for future generations. The alternative is unthinkable.
You really don't have a clue in the world what democracy and the Golden Rule are all about, do you?
We're trying to make sure your religious beliefs don't impact the ability of others to hold their own beliefs (or lack thereof). You're just complaining at the loss of Christian privilege.
You, Sir, should be kicked out of the Country.
Glad you'll never be president. Hate to break it to you, we are a secular society, not a theocracy. If you want a theocracy, check out Iran. Frankly christians that want to covert others are offensive to me. Believe whatever you want but trying to force your beliefs on others crosses the line.
Send the cards to: Southern New Hampshire Rescue Mission, 40 Chestnut Street, Nashua, NH 03060
We will pass them out.
Send the cards to Southern New Hampshire Rescue Mission, 40 Chestnut Street, Nashua, NH 03060.
We will pass them out.
The Bible is very true
As opposed to what....just true? It is more true than true? I don't get it.
You need to hit the reply button.
Anyway, how do you know these things are true? You can use the bible to prove that the bible is true.
can't, not can. D*mn fat fingers...
Read the book, AGE OF REASON, written by Thomas Paine. Then get back to us.
did u know that America began as Christians
Do you know you are in the wrong place? Kindergarten is down the hall.
Did you know that critical founders like Thomas Jefferson were NOT CHRISTIANS. Please start doing some research.
Minasa , revisionist history is not necessary. America at its founding did have a lot of Christians, but they would not be compatible with what we consider Christians today. The country was founded by people whose education included and was in large part inspired by the Holy Bible. The Bible was a studied book in those days. All that said, the founding fathers for the most part believed in God and a good many accepted Jesus as savior, but not all. The founding principles were Judeo Christian influenced by the politics of the day.
How do you come to that miraculous Conclusion, Minasa ? Simply you choose to believe it ? Sheesh !!
How could a 3.000 year old collection of shepards' tales be wrong? All that "science" stuff like "evolution" and "dinosaurs" is just fairy tales meant to through off non-believers right? Religion is all about control, not elightenment. The bible is simply a collection of tales mean to explain a world that our ancestors did not quite understand, nothing more and nothing less.
we dont want to force u to become a christian just wanted to let u know
just wait for the rapture
"...and some are offended when we hand out the cards.”
How small-minded and petty one must be to be offended. Even worse to then whine about it.
I would be offended, or humored. Not sure. Either way, someone would hear about. Why no Athiests cards?
Christianity: One woman's attempt to cover up an affair that got totally fuk'n out of hand.
Christianity: One woman's attempt to cover up an affair that got totally fuk'n out of hand.
"Welcome to the Maury Show. Today we have Mary and Joseph from Nazareth."
"Joseph you are NOT the father."
Al – LOL
"Jeremiah, you ARE the father"
Staring Horse with Tongue Stick Out//"Why no Athiests cards?"
I don't know. If you think that is important and would be good for business, then start your own airline using that as a marketing tactic.
AMERICA IS A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY AND THOSE WHO DON'T ACCEPT IT SHOULD MOVE OUT! I am sick and tired of those nonbelievers who try to take away our Christian rights!!!!!!
No one is trying to take away your rights, you buffoon. But a lot of your fellow Christian conservatives are trying to take away the rights of those who do not share the same beliefs as you by shoving your misguided beliefs down their throats.
Tell me 1 "christian" right that they are taking away?
Prayer from schools, Making more Christian federal holidays, Good Friday taken away in Illinois, some blue laws, trying to get rid of 'In God We Trust', WTC Cross lawsuit and much more!!
FYI on that "Christian oott' to yours....
The Treaty of Tripoli
Signed by John Adams
"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries....
"The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."
- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams (the original language is by Joel Barlow, US Consul)
i think its the other way around.. People dont want Christianity anymore..
I dont care what your belief its your choice, but your singling all out but one, this case Christianity.
Complaints have risen FROM AMERICAN PASSENGERS and they dont want it.
what steven says is true
Oppss how i Turned Christian Namtion into Christan oott, I do not know....
Oh well bad speller UNTIE
Oh Steven. Losing your rights. Pray in school you can still do i by yourself, in fact I used to pray the Rosary during my lunch break. Teaching evolution is not evil but is it the best theory on how life came to its present state. The big bang is fine too God could have caused it have Christains like you ever thought about that. Reading the bible in school I did that about 3 ago, along with various other religous texts.Not having good friday off is solvable, off ask your boss if you can or call in sick. The "Christian" rights you were talking about are still there but are not forced on others.
The rights you are complaining about loosing are all abuses of the rights of others that you have taken advantage of for too long.
Christian rights? Hahahaha christianity is responsible for more repression,death and backwards thinking than almost any other affiliation of individuals on earth. You have the right to practice whatever religion you want, but you do not have the right to force that religion on others. Alaska airlines is removing these cards because people are complaining, I would complain if I got one fo these because I find it absolutely offensive that you assume I share your beliefs . It is offensive you think that your religion is the one and only true religion. Less than 1/2 the world's population is christian, yet your "god" supposedly created them all. If your "god" truly thinks that 1/2 of the worls population should burn for all eternity because they don't believe in some guy that lived and died 2,000 years ago, that is one F^&ked up god.
you should know what its about before you can say that
@ Bill: I would be willing to bet that a lot of folks like yourself would change their 'religious' views if the plane you were in was going down. Just sayin...
Nope. Got nothing to fear. The mysterious dude in the sky, and the horned dude in the toasty place making smores ain't got nothing on me. I'm ready to go, anytime dude.
Even if you are a believer, it's plain that prayer is useless. Here's why: Let's say you are praying for something. Is what you want part of "God's Great Plan"? If it is, then your prayer is redundant, not needed. What you want will happen anyway, on "God's" own timetable. Is what you want NOT part of "God's Great Plan"? If so, your prayer is futile, useless. In reality, when you pray, you are just talking to yourself, expressing your HOPE that something specific will happen. So why not just recognize it as such and ditch the whole bearded superman in the sky idiocy? Then, if what you want is something good, WORK toward making that happen. Grow up, folks! Ditch religion, think for yourselves, and work to benefit yourselves and your fellow human beings. That's the ONLY way that anything good will ever happen.
You obviously don't know too much about Christianity, do you? There is a God, and he does have a plan. When you pray, you don't ask for Him to do whatever you want, you ask him to show what His will is. Also, about the "bearded man in the sky" is what the media portrays God as. This world needs more faith, because we are all sinners, including you my friend.
"We are all sinners, even you my friend"
What a great thing to say to someone, really makes me think your religion is full of good positive messages. I really love the 'worship me or I will give you eternal punishment' clause of that, because 'it's not good enough to be good, we're all sinners, so you need faith for redemption'.
Yeah, the 'if you don't offer sycophantic praise, I cast you to everlasting torment' model of the Christian god. See, as far as I'm concerned, it's a god like that who doesn't only deserve no worship, but utter complete scorn. I'd rather suffer in hell than be a peon to an egotistical monster who says 'all of you people are imperfect, and unless you worship me, I'll let you suffer forever'. Who the hell would want to be surrounded by sycophants praising a malevolent deity?
Fortunately, just saying 'god is real' doesn't make it any more true than saying 'voldemort is real'. I just find that the picture portrayed of both characters make them both seem pretty damn evil.
@ Andrew. Brother, we DESERVE Hell. We are terrible people, even I am a sinful person. But I do understand what you are saying, I had the same beliefs too. God doesn't want to punish us, he sent his only Son so that we may believe in Him, and be cleansed of our sins. Its that simple. Honestly. We pretty much slap HIM in the face when WE sin. He made us so that we could bring glory to Him. We are being disobedient, so He has done nothing wrong. Thank you for replying to my comment though, I do appreciate your thoughts.
Believer, god can do anything, if god doesn't want to punish us, he doesn't need to send his 'son' to die a horrible bitter painful death, he could decide 'well, murder is worse than non-belief, so I'm going to judge the two differently', hell, god could eliminate hell entirely. The idea of eternal torture for transient crimes is absurd, and makes your god seem nothing more than a colossal bully.
I don't care what you say I've done in life, the notion that ANYTHING I've done deserves eternal torture just because I am not convinced of the veracity of your beliefs is absurd and sickening. I'd rather suffer in hell than be in a heaven surrounded by people like you who think a god that malevolent is anything but evil. I wouldn't even wish eternal torture on Hitler, as grave as his crimes were, simply because 'everlasting eternal punishment' is a punishment well out of disproportion with any crime we can commit on earth.
So yeah, feel free to tell me I 'deserve' hell all you like, if you feel humans all deserve hell just by virtue of being human, heaven must be a pretty scary place if populated by sycophants like you.
Religion is about control, everyone has to be a sinner because if you weren't born with original sin, why would you need a church to help you be saved from eternal hell? You wouldn't and therefore one of the levers to control you would not be available. The more you learn about christian beliefs, the less appealing they are.....
Are you mad at me because I believe in a God, or are you just like the people on the plain, who couldn't handle being given a card. I have done nothing to you brother, so when you reply, at least do it with respect.
Why do atheists think that Christians will get upset if things said 'Allah' rather than 'God' in America? First of all, if you were educated you would have knowns that 'Allah' means God in Arabic. Allah u akbar means God is great (big). So we Christians are for it, but it would be wierd since we speak English in America, not Arabic. GET EDUCATED!
Martina, if you saw one or two posts that suggested that one or two atheists are unaware that Allah and Yahweh are the same imaginary person, that does not indicated that ALL atheists are uninformed.
probably because of the hate we see on TV every time some muslim tries anything in this country.
But you are right. Not all christians behave that way.
Fact is AMERICAN Christians do get mad.
2nd dont pass as being educated in Islam by watching fox news, if your going to translate, translate it correctly...
its Allahu akbar = God is the Greatest... i dont know where came up with "(big)" or where it came from.
so please go back to sheik google, get yourself educated and read more than just wikipedia.
Time to dump all religion, not just the cards!
if you realized what religion actually was youd feel stupid. religion is manmade and will always exist. even without the concept of god, man will resort to praying to other men or idols. its within our nature. you will never get rid of religion.. the problem isnt god.
Ok we can start with atheism how bout that?
what minasa says is right
If Christians have so totally failed to indoctrinate children into Christianity in their homes and churches that they require schools and airlines to do the job, then don't made them cover your abysmal faiilures.
If Atheists have so totally failed to indoctrinate children into Atheism in their homes and offices that they require schools and airlines to do the job, then don't made them cover your abysmal failures.
Schools don't preach atheism or have any signs preaching atheism or allow atheistic readings at sports events, etc. Didn't think that through too well, did you?
very stupid thread. NOT putting a Christian prayer card in front of me when I have paid for a seat on an airline, is not in any way an atheistic gesture. It is just not a Christian gesture. I've never understood the "one religion" thing. Can we have a playoff between the religions to see who wins and we can end all this. Oh, I forgot – we did that with the Crusades.
Crom, I never prayed to you, I have no tongue for it! But Crom, grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, then to hell with you!
Good evening, all you Saints and sinners!!
This is my prayer for all you God and Christian hating "Liberals" out there.
"Lord, you have said: 'No one can come to me lest the Father first call him'. I pray that You call them, and that you reveal yourself to them as you have to millions of other people for thousands of years, and to me personally. I would be just like them had you no revealed yourself to me:
Jn 14:22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”
23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me."
Oh no!! I think CNN has made a seriously bad business decision. I have posted a prayer on their website and it will surely irritate all the hate mongers! Don't we have separation of Church and business in this country???!!!
You gotta believe in god before you can hate him (or her. How do we know it is a male? Does he have a female god spouse?)
Bob, I don't believe in your god OR your bible. So what your bible says about god, persuades me not.
It's not offensive, I just think it shows how feableminded most christians are.... so just because you believe in jesus, everything else doesn't really matter? Someone who think's jesus is a coverup to an affair 2,000 years ago but devotes their life to helping others goes to hell but the priest who touches little boys goes to heaven because he believes in jesus? What an unfair, backwards and frankly rediculous set of beliefs... Thats what I think when I read that prayer...
It's about time. The world is beginning to see the light.... That the Kristian church is no better than the Taliban
1 Jn 3:11 This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. 13Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
that is not true
God is real
minasa, tell us how you know god is real.
There we go A great name for these idiots who pervert my religion to do evil in God's Name Kristians.
Really Now As the accuser it is up to YOU to provide proof. Can you provide proof there is not a more scientifically advanced being who in a lab created a universe using scientific principals WE have yet to discover & understand? Things such as using a 3D hologram to make a bush look as if it's on fire?
where do you think christmas began
do you know what good friday is (the holiday)
same goes fir easter etc
@minasa low christmas began as a way to covert pagans to christianity. Jesus was not born in december, the date of the 25th was chosen because of it's proximity to the winter solstice, a pagan time of celebration. Because the dates were close it made it easier for pagans to be converted by hi-jacking an existing holiday for them. You probably should brush up on the history of your own religion before you blindly believe in it and support it.
I'm sure jesus full support the inqusition too since really it was only about torturing non-believers and try to save them right? It was just starting what they deserve in hell anyway a little early, in an effort to help them right?
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