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 Some see signs of growing strife within American Jewry over the issue of Israel. American Jews confront internal rancor over IsraelBy Joe Sterling, CNN Atlanta (CNN) - When the editor of a Jewish newspaper here wrote this month that the Jewish state might consider assassinating an American president, his column made national headlines and provoked a Secret Service inquiry. The most striking criticism came from the Jewish community itself, which collectively held its nose and harshly denounced the column by Andrew Adler, who is also the owner of the weekly paper, the Atlanta Jewish Times. Anti-Defamation League national director Abraham Foxman called Adler's words "irresponsible and extremist." Adler apologized and resigned as editor, but some see the episode as the latest example of an increase in divisive, over-the-top rhetoric within American Jewish communal life, revolving largely around the hot-button issue of Israel and its policies toward the Palestinians. The tensions have provoked Jewish groups across the country to launch programs aimed at lowering the political temperature in their own religious communities. Israel is not "one of the great unifying factors" that it once was in the Jewish community, said Samuel Freedman, author of "Jew vs. Jew: the Struggle for the Soul of American Jewry.”
"Since the Lebanon invasion and the First Intifada, it has become a dividing line,” he said, referring to the Palestinian uprising against the Israeli occupation in the late 1980s. “It's probably deeper now than I've ever seen it." Tensions within American Judaism are rising as some Jews detect an "existential threat" to Israel, with Iran's nuclear aspirations and Islamist parties coming to power during the Arab uprisings, he says. Freedman also sees broader trends at work, including the fading line between private and public talk dissolving in the era of blogging and tweeting. The Atlanta Jewish Times incident, he says, is a reminder that words that sound bold in private will "resonate really differently when they are out in public." Ethan Felson, vice president of the Jewish Council for Public Affairs, says emotions have been much more "intense and destructive" lately as ideological camps within the American Jewish community harden their views over the contentious U.S. presidential campaign, tensions between Israel and Iran, and issues from health care to marriage. "This is going to be a brutal year," he says. "We're looking at a scorched earth political environment." Felson’s group spearheads a nationwide civility initiative and held a "civility institute" last year to help Jewish leaders with conflict resolution, listening and "communicating across polarized divides." Leaders from 15 Jewish communities across the country participated. The council recently issued a civility statement signed by a range of prominent Jewish entities, saying the effort has "deep roots in Torah," the Jewish sacred text, and "in our community's traditions." But the statement also spoke to a troubled Jewish landscape. "The expression and exchange of views is often an uncivil, highly unpleasant experience,” it said. “Community events and public discussions are often interrupted by raised voices, personal insults, and outrageous charges." Jane Schiff, a Jewish Council for Public Affairs board member who is also on the group’s civility task force, says she has seen the hostile atmosphere take its toll in her Atlanta community, with rabbis backing off from talking about Israel. "They are afraid it will affect their employment. I'm seeing friends saying to each other, 'I'm not talking to you about that because I want to stay your friend,' " she said of controversial issues such as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Judy Saks, the community relations director for the Jewish Federation of Nashville and editor of the federation-produced community newspaper, can attest to the vituperation. In May, an online video surfaced about Muslims in Nashville that said they were fomenting pro-terrorist ideas. Called “Losing our Community,” the video was produced by a Boston-based group called Americans for Peace and Tolerance. A video on the group’s website says one Nashville Muslim figure it regards as radical has been embraced by “self-described progressive Jewish religious leaders," including a rabbi, and is respected as an interfaith activist in the community. Saks said that the original video blasted three Nashville rabbis but that two were removed after several weeks. Americans for Peace and Tolerance did not respond to a request for comment. "It brought out such divisiveness in this community,” Saks said. “It pointed fingers at our rabbis for doing what rabbis do." The organized Jewish community decided to draw up its own civility statement, which supports "robust and vigorous debate about critical issues – as long as it is civil and tolerant" and disagreement "without threats of reprisal." "This willingness to listen to other points of view honors Nashville's spirit as an open, welcoming and friendly city, our nation's history and our Jewish heritage," it said. "We will not engage with those who threaten the safety and security of our community." In California's San Francisco Bay Area, controversy erupted over a film about Rachel Corrie shown at a 2009 San Francisco Jewish film festival. Corrie, an American member of the International Solidarity Movement who was killed in Gaza nine years ago by an Israel Defense Forces bulldozer, symbolizes for many the battle on the left against Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories. Corrie's mother spoke at the event, angering some Jews, who said her appearance politicized what was supposed to be an artistic moment. The reaction to the film reflected the political fissures in the Bay Area Jewish community. In response, two community leaders, Abby Michelson Porth and Rachel Eryn Kalish, co-founded Project Reconnections, which included an initiative called the Year of Civil Discourse. The well-funded effort throughout 2011 worked to bring Jews of different political stripes together for dialogue and deliberation, study and workshops. It also focused on reconciliation in four synagogues beset by political enmity and engaged community leaders over issues such as the Middle East. Porth, also associate director at the Bay Area Jewish Community Relations Council, says the project helped infuse the community "with the skills and the opportunity to have a rich, meaningful and civil discourse." She says it got people on opposite ends of the spectrum to stay at the table to understand the other person's point of view and to to deliberate thoughtfully over disagreements. Kalish, the Year of Civil Discourse project facilitator, saw people’s "fight or flight" instincts shift as they learned to communicate thoughtfully and gain a deeper understanding of issues such as Jewish settlements and the status of Jerusalem. A healthy conversation, Kalish said, helps people think and understand that "maybe there's a third way" to approach a stubborn issue. She recalls an interaction in one synagogue between an older man who lived through Israel's War of Independence in 1948 and the Six Day War in 1967 and a young woman who sees Israel through the prism of its criticized actions in Lebanon and the Palestinian territories. The two synagogue members came to understand each other and now work side by side as dialogue "facilitators" at their congregation. Kalish cites this as an example of "pretty dramatic change" in learning how to listen and speak honesty and respectfully. Mitch Chanin, executive director of the Jewish Dialogue Group in Philadelphia, offers dialogue programs for Jews in synagogues, colleges and other organizations and trains people as dialogue facilitators. The group formed in 2001 and has done work across North America. Chanin, who says his group refrains from promoting political opinion, says the dialogues have included talking through the tough issues around the Middle East conflict. "People grapple with the questions of what risks are we willing to take and what actions are ethical. Who can we trust and not trust?" Chanin said. "The likely consequences of Israeli policies. What are the intentions of Palestinian actors? “What can we do to be safe? When is it OK to kill? When is it necessary? When is it wrong? When are there alternatives?" |
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Well, lets be frank... either you support your own nation first or you don't and if you don't you run very close to being a traitor... at least when you propose things like this. Israel and those who support it have for a long time held its interests above those of all others including the US. Thats fine for Israel and Israelis, but its not fine for Americans to do.
Are you threatening the Americans?
Not so. Just because your personal opinion might be that the survival of the State of Israel may not be in the best interests of the nation doesn't mean that many others, and most American Jews disagree and believe that the support of the State of Israel is in keeping with America's interests.
.
wow – interesting question, Norman – I will try to answer as best I can.
1. Unlike others, I do not purport to know what God wants me to do.
2. IF you understood the History of the Jewish ppl, you would KNOW that, each and every time the Jews have lost their homeland, such loss came after a prophecy that they would, indeed, lose the land BECAUSE they (The Jews) turned away from God's commandments. (In fact, this proposition is stated again and again, BEFORE prophecies, i.e., in the Torah itself.
SO – if you're making the argument that GOD, himself, sides with the Jews' at all times, you'd be wrong and, by extension, if you think I would assume that God would want me to choose Israel over the U.S., that would be just as inaccurate. In the modern state of Israel, there are PLENTY of things that the government does that is against Jewish law – THAT is why there is a common misconception that Israel is a "fundamentalist" country, like Iran, Iraq or Saudi Arabia – it is not...and, while certainly there IS a religious overtone in the State, it is by NO means a theocracy.
I'm sorry, but I cant give a better answer than that.
Israel is a theocracy. Jews get special treatment.
Yes, Jews in Israel have many structural advantages while people of other religions face discrimination. No, it is not a theocracy.
@AngryJew- "Israel is a theocracy. Jews get special treatment."
No they aren't and no they don't.
I respect israeli jews a lot more than american jews. american jews sit back and enjoy sending christian blacks, hispanics, and whites to die for israel. at least israeli jews are in the midst of it all. american jews are hypocrites.
Magnus- SO for the record I just want to make sure that you understand that my father served in the United States Air Force both in WWII(at age 18) and again during Korea..You not only call me a RACIST but you call me the bigest racist on this board clearly because I believe that isreal should have a right to exist(making me a zionist?) and My only point that I tried to make here tonight is that I have always seen the US/Israeli alience as a very important one throughout the cold war to stand between the USSR and its ARAB allies and today where Iran and Syria are possible threats...SO, How am I a racist?
I'm not a Jew; never been in Israel, know a few jews but none are good friends, yet I strongly support Israel. I am a 3rd generation American, a senior citizen. I believe that our nation and our leaders should stand behind Israel; they are our only friends in the middle east. Obama is not a supporter of Israel; he's too pro-muslim
Jeff;
If you had to choose between the survival of the US or Israel; which one would you pick?
If you choose Israel... then go live in Israel and go do your time fighting in their conscript army because if you are an American and you value the survival of Israel (or any other nation) over the survival of America, then you are a traitor.
I am a JEW first. An AMERICAN second, and an Israeli third.
Now, of course you, and those like you, would chastise and criticize me; however, before you DO, take a look at the credo of the U.S. Marines – "GOD, country, duty, honor"....but, it's OK for the marines to put GOD first,ahead of country, but not Jews, right ?
And God would have you do what, Jeff?
I am an American. I am not an Israeli. I side with my country.
That said, I'm willing to bet that in 1912 my great great grandfather was saying "I am a German. I side with my country." I can only hope and pray that this country doesn't change and turn on my great grand children the way the German democracy changed and turned on my great grandfather.
Norman – I dont understand the question – please elucidate.
Jeff – If you had to choose between the survival of Israel and the survival of the U.S., what would God, whom you rightly put first, want you to do?
Norman:
Sorry – mis-posted my answer above to the wrong thread – here it is:
wow – interesting question, Norman – I will try to answer as best I can.
1. Unlike others, I do not purport to know what God wants me to do.
2. IF you understood the History of the Jewish ppl, you would KNOW that, each and every time the Jews have lost their homeland, such loss came after a prophecy that they would, indeed, lose the land BECAUSE they (The Jews) turned away from God's commandments. (In fact, this proposition is stated again and again, BEFORE prophecies, i.e., in the Torah itself.
SO – if you're making the argument that GOD, himself, sides with the Jews' at all times, you'd be wrong and, by extension, if you think I would assume that God would want me to choose Israel over the U.S., that would be just as inaccurate. In the modern state of Israel, there are PLENTY of things that the government does that is against Jewish law – THAT is why there is a common misconception that Israel is a "fundamentalist" country, like Iran, Iraq or Saudi Arabia – it is not...and, while certainly there IS a religious overtone in the State, it is by NO means a theocracy.
I'm sorry, but I cant give a better answer than that.
AIPAC and Foxman would choose Israel. They can not be trusted.
why ask this question. of course they would say israel. but american jews do not have to go and fight for israel, that's what blacks, hispanics, and poor white people are for. To die for israel while american jews sit back and manipulate the government.
The credo of the Marines is "First to Fight". Not "God, Honor, Country". What a maroon!
The question is a straw man. If I were to ask you if you prefer the lives of your immediate family or your cousins who are friendly with your family you would choose your immediate family but also ridicule the question. Don't kid yourself into believe that if Israel didn't exist that our problem with radical Islamic fundamentalists would go away- what do the conflicts in India, the Phillipines, Nigeria , Chechnya, western China, Somalia, North/ South Sudan, christian minorities in fundamentalist regimes have to do with Israel? It is not a stretch that the USA, Europe or any secular or nonfundamentalist state would be just as stridently opposed by those forces if Israel did not exist.
stupid, stupid question, Chooch. Do you even have a brain. Both the U.S. and Israel will continue to exist and support one another. If you don't believe this, get the hell out of this country.
I can't help but wonder what would happen if armed Mexicans showed up at homes in Texas and told the American residents that their property now belonged to Mexico because the United Nations had decided to re-create the former nation of Mexico.
I'd bet that the Americans would react much the same way the Palestinians have and the conflict would go on for just as long as the Israeli conflicts have.
...
Don't betray ingorance on your knowlege of history.
A better analogy would be what would the Texans do if Mexicans started lobbing rockets into El Paso and cried to the world about how terrible Texans were whenever the Texans tried to stop them from trying to kill Texans.
Not to mention it'd be pretty hard for a group of people that weren't internationally recognized as a race until the late 1970's argue about something that happened to their "race" 3 decades prior.
As I recall Texas WAS part of Mexico before they became part of the US.
They did. It was the start of the Texan War of independence. Mexico lost and lost the land for the war it started. That is how the world worked then and now.
That's already happpened in most ways. Mexico has always claimed it was forced to sign the treaties that gave us Texas to California. Too bad – they got beat on the battlefield by an American Army far beyond its lines of supply peopled by men who later fought each other in our Civil War. That's history. Legal and illegal Latinos in those areas form a loose coalition called "La Raza" (The Race) and are engaged in a not-so-sublte war of reconquest called "La Reconquista". The bombings at the Madrid, Spain train station a while back is the Muslim version of reconquest. They want Spain back. Think any of that is going to happen? It may not be nice for the losers but the victors get the spoils.
couldn't have said it better myself. your are absolutely right. unfortunately some people feel 'scripture' and saving oneself is more important than kindness and working towards a greater human race. it's ridiculous.
And I wonder what the American's response would be if Mexicans were firing rockets into Texas at an average of over three per day. Probably the same as the Israelis. There are two sides to every story.
iT BOBLES MY MIND HOW THIS JEW ARTICLE GOT ON THE FRONT PAGE ON CCN. I AGREE WITH MOST OF INCLUDING FEDFL IF IT WAS MEXICO INVADING AMERICA AND TELLING US WE HAD TO LEAVE BECAUSE THIS LAND BELONGED TO MEXICO BEFORE, AMERICA WOULD NOT BE HAPPY AT ALL!!!! PRO-PALESTINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Palestinians occasionally fire rockets at Israel, which is completely understandable when one considers the inhumane conditions the Israelis force the Palestinians to live under. Then Israeli responds with its state-of-the-art, US-made rockets, killing dozens, and sometimes hundreds, more Palestinian men, women and children then were ever killed by ineffectual Palestinian rockets.
Good point.
Well, bob..when you're outnumbered on the battlefield 40-1, a 1-1 kill ratio doesnt make much sense now, does it ?
Me ? well, let's just say that if they kill one of ours, and we kill 10 of theirs in return, and they kill another of ours, then, I guess 10-2 isnt much of a deterrent...so, I go 20-1.
You keenly forget that Gaza and West Bank were used as staging points for war with Israel in '48, and '56 – EACH time, Israel withdrew after the war. When it happened again in '67, Israel said "enough".
You see...in THIS case...we DO know which came first, the chicken or the egg.
@Bob Smith- "The Palestinians occasionally fire rockets at Israel, which is completely understandable when one considers the inhumane conditions the Israelis force the Palestinians to live under."
You dolt...their is no purpose in their firing of rockets except for terror purposes.
What inhuman conditions? The Palestinians in Israel as Israel citizens have it just as good as any Jew or Druze.
The Gazans have a higher standard of living than all of Africa.
"Then Israeli responds with its state-of-the-art, US-made rockets, killing dozens, and sometimes hundreds, more Palestinian men, women and children then were ever killed by ineffectual Palestinian rockets."
It's not Israel's fault that the terrorists hide behind their women's skirts and children's toys.
Curious, if someone came at you with a knife and you had a choice between a knife just like his and a rifle...which would you choose? Don't hate Israel for having better weapons.
Poor analogy.
Why?
Lets not forget who taught the Palestinians how to use terror. Jewish terrorist were bombing and assassinating the British and Arab’s before WW2.
No they weren't Dave. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe some individual Jews might have done such a thing. But in not way to the level of an organization like Hamas.
Poor analogy because Mexico, Texas, California, etc. do not have any sacred, holy significance. There were no Crusades fought over these lands. The United States (Republic of Texas, Republic of California), mostly English descendants, and Mexico, mostly Spanish descendants, were both foreign armies (not indigenous to the Americas, i.e not Native American) seeking to expand their territory. "Right of return" does not apply to Texas, California, etc. It does apply to Israel.
@FEDFL, you must another evil jew trying to manipulate the truth. The last time we checked; the State of Texas was part of Mexico. This much, every America knows to be the gospel truth. Get your stupid facts straight. You are so blind in deceits and lies that you can't even make conclusive analogy. Idiot, keep playing the "Victims Card". Get off Palestinian lands. The World at large is so sick of your playing the "Victims Card".
We MISSED Hitler so much today!
@ﺶCHEﺶ- Don't know much about Hitler do you?
YES – The Jewish terror gangs in the 30s,40s and 50s were well organized and supported by the Government. Palmach, Irgun, Stern gang, Commando Group 101. Read about it in Benny Morris' book – the birth of the Palestinian refugee problem and the terror and expulsion of the Palestinians. Benny Morris is a Jewish professor.....the book is excellent....if not chilling. And yes – Ben Gurion, Dayan, Meir, Sharon, Rabin...all knew what they were doing....they were all involved....and some (Ben Gurion) knew full well that what they were doing was immoral.
Obama has done absolutely nothing, nothing to help the south border states to keep the illegals from entering the United States from Mexico. So in a way, Obama is allowing Mexico to take over Texas, which will happen in the near future as the new majority in Houston and other large Texas cities is not hispanics, mostly Mexicans, most illegal. So thank Obama for all the cartels and Mexican gangs in our country. He has done nothing to help all the governors who are fighting to prevent the takeover of their states by the mexicans.
If Israel ever lost a war it would be destroyed. Therefore, it cannot behave as though it will win every future war. Israel is doomed without acceptance from the Arab people. As distant and impossible as that seems, it must be strenuously pursued above all else. For that to happen there must be mutual understanding.
Richie – Kumbaya.
Your post presupposes that the Arab world wants peace in the real sense. EVERYONE wants "peace" – but what IS peace ? Peace is NOT the absence of war. When you have Iran, Iraq, Syria, etc., STILL calling for Israel's demise and saying when Israel is wiped off the map, there will be peace, pardon my (and Israel's) refusal to accept "peace" on those terms.
Israel has had a LASTING peace with Jordan and Egypt. Hell, they even have a semblance of "peace" with Abbas in the West Bank.
CAN YOU POINT TO ONE PEACE INITIATIVE BY THE ARABS ?
And Palestine must be freed from Israeli oppression.
true dat. i dont have a problem with israeli jews fighting for their self-preservation. i have a problem with american jews forcing the government to send non-jew american blacks, hispanics and white folks to die to israel while the american jews go about their business. very hypocritical.
Magnus – quite simply, of all the moronic posts on here, yours stands above all.
NO American soldiers fight for Israel. Not one American soldier.
Hundreds of thousands of Americans died for Europe.
Thousands died for Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan.
You'z a FOO to tink dat.
I am one of those conflicted American Jews. I hate watching the brutality of the Israelis on the Palestinians. At the same time I find it so hard to sympathise with a people who appear more than not ready, willing and able and happy to put a knife between the shoulder blades of my little grandaughter just because she is Jewish.
The Arabs appear barbarous to me, and I fear them. I note that there has been more Arab on Arab deaths due to terrorism and other Arab on Arab violence in the past year than have been deaths due to Israelis since the start of Israel.
How does one make peace with those who happily kill themselves as well as you and seem to be true barbarians?
I think you have to help them to acheive democracy. It's scary, but its the only way they can solve the internal problems that make them so vicious to one another. In time they will moderate.
You create peace through respect. The Palestinian people have land that is being settled by Israelis. If someone from one of our bordering countries decided to take land that belonged to Americans and build homes on it and use force to keep that control, would the Americans sit back passively and do nothing? Israel has its country and that country has borders. Out of respect, the Israelis should live within their own borders and allow the Palestinians to have sovereignty within their own country. My guess it that is the road to a peaceful resolution.
For a start, stop evicting the Palestinians out of their homes in order to build more settlements. That could be followed by respecting their humanity instead of treating them as animals. Jews were fully accepted in the Arab world for 600 years according to Karen Armstron, a religious historians. Europe and the Church displayed the extreme discrimination against the Jews, who took refuge in the Arab world. The conflict has nothing to do with jews, it has to do with confiscation of one's centuries old homes.
Scotty: watch the news. Israeli soldiers call Palestinians animals, and shoot and kill them – men, women and children – as they work in their farms, or try to walk to work. There is hate on both sides, but the Palestinians are the ones who have been brutally oppressed by the Israelis for decades.
@Bob Smith- "watch the news. Israeli soldiers call Palestinians animals, and shoot and kill them – men, women and children – as they work in their farms, or try to walk to work."
Evidence? Or are you living in fantasy land again?
origin: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482 NY Times review and important enough to reiterate.
New Torah For Modern Minds
“Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.
Such startling propositions - the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years - have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity - until now.
The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine doc-ument.
The notion that the Bible is not literally true "is more or less settled and understood among most Conservative rabbis," observed David Wolpe, a rabbi at Sinai Temple in Los Angeles and a contributor to "Etz Hayim." But some congregants, he said, "may not like the stark airing of it." Last Passover, in a sermon to 2,200 congregants at his synagogue, Rabbi Wolpe frankly said that "virtually every modern archaeologist" agrees "that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way that it happened, if it happened at all." The rabbi offered what he called a "LITANY OF DISILLUSION”' about the narrative, including contradictions, improbabilities, chronological lapses and the absence of corroborating evidence. In fact, he said, archaeologists digging in the Sinai have "found no trace of the tribes of Israel - not one shard of pottery."
yawn
STFU
I haven't read such a beautifully written commentary for quite sometime. It was delightful to read it. Thanks for taking the time to write it for those who are not well informed about the subject (including me).
And this proves what? In all probability, NONE of the foundations of any of the major religions have their basis in fact.
It doesn't matter.
There are about 10 million Jews in the world who believe and/or are comforted by the story, just as there are about a billion Christians who are believe and/or are comforted by the Gospel, a billion Muslims who are feel the same about the Koran, ditto Hindus and Buddhists with their holy writings.
I happen to be among them.
Just more proof of the disintegration of a once proud Jewish movement into some atheistic/humanistic philosophy that bears no relation to the Jewish religion. 3000 uears of history ignored because some archeologist - who has no knowledge of or connection to his religion - decides that all previous history no longer exists. The fact that even the Muslim and Christian religion recognizes the existence of Abraham, Moses, and David, I guess is more facts he can ignore. We hope that these people call themselves something else because jewish they are not.
thank you for sharing the facts. i cannot believe the world is what it is today because of religion. its disgusting.
I am so divided on this. On the one hand, I am really for a Jewish homeland, but that is always soured by the monstrous behavior of the Israelis agains the Palestinians and the Lebanese. They behave as bad or worse than the terrorists.
Basically, it is pretty hard to like either side. All too often I find myself thinking that the Arabs and the Israelis deserve each other.
Only United Nations recognition of Palestine will level the playing field. Until then, Israel will continue to steal land from the Palestinians, bulldozing their homes and killing them. Remember, 800,000 Palestinians were brutally driven from their homes in 1947 and 1948, with no reparation. And the oppression, expulsion and land theft has continued since then. No wonder they are angry.
@Bob Smith- "Only United Nations recognition of Palestine will level the playing field. Until then, Israel will continue to steal land from the Palestinians"
You dolt...Israel left Gaza.
Hey..how about all the arab nations recognize Israel.
The International Community should unilaterally draw a boundary line between Israel and a free Palistinian State and make Jerusalem an open international city.
If either side refuses to accept each other and the boundary then we cut off aid and impose sanctions on either, or both offenders.
With regard to American Jews and Palestinians, if asked directly the question "To which country is your first allegiance?", my guess is that most would not pick the U.S.
If Israel attacks Iran, it should be on its' own!
"The International Community should unilaterally draw a boundary line between Israel and a free Palistinian State and make Jerusalem an open international city."
That's basically what they tried to do in the late 1940's. The Arab nations didn't like it and attacked Israel. The Palestinians were the ones that lost out though. It was only when Egypt, Leb and Jordan started to lose their own territories in the 50's-70's did they clamor for treaties with Israel.
Chooch
You are close to the root of the issue.
Neither side is loyal to anything other than their imaginary sky freinds.
Just like some ghetto hoodlums, they will kill members of the other gang over a piece of land.
Their cults do us all shame, and drag us all closer to the end.
Coochie-
You show a VAST amount of ignorance in your post.
1. With VERY few exceptions, Hews were never allowed to practice their faith when someone else was in charge of the Jerusalem.
2. Israel has RIGHTFULLY had enough of "international" protection. First, after the '56 war, the U.N. put "peacekeepers" at the Sinai – in '67. Nassar told the U.N. that they had 24 hours to clear out or die – the U.N. bugged out. The U.N. also had "peacekeepers" at the Lebanon border in the 80's – and yet, for all those years, they didnt stop ONE missile attack...nor did they try.
Israel would be a FOOL to allow non-Isareli control of Jerusalem.
And by what authority do you have the audacity to speak for the American Jewish Community? were you appointed as our spokesperson...and no one else knows about this appointment?
American Jews love both America and Israel and as an American Jew, I cannot even conceive of an instance that would put America and Israel on opposite sides of a war...so it's a useless point on your part. Israel has only one ally in this world and that is America...America has only one true ally in this world and that is Israel. Unfortunately, American Jews have a serious problem at the moment with obama, our enemy and Israel's enemy, in the White House. He has already thrown both the American Jewish Community and Israel under the bus...that is...until he needs our money to get reelected. This will be corrected in NOvember 2012 when this administration will be shown the door.
Over the centuries other great cities have been proposed to be "open cities" but alas the current residents nixed that. Can't blame them. Under the Arabs Jews were not allowed open access to the Western Wall. The owner makes the rules. In the case of nations, such things are usually decided on the battlefield. Mix in the fact that the Muslim Grand Mufti of Jerusalem sided with and spent the war with Hitler in Berlin and rigidity sets in. Say the words "Never Again" and you can write books about what it means. Israel has passed thru the settler phase and is figuring out not only what it means to be an Israeli but what it means to be a Jew. The Arabs have tried fighting the Israeli Army and been soundly beaten so now they do what the Taliban do, roadside bombs, snipers, volleys of rockets. But I think a great upheaval is coming and alot will be decided.
They tried that in 1948. Jerusalem was suppose to be an international city, with free access to all, under the supervision of Jordan.
The Jordanians promptly closed the city to the Jews and destroyed Jewish synagogues and cemeteries in Jerusalem.
The Israelis offer the best access to Jerusalem and the most respect EVERY religion's holy sites of anyone in history.
The old city of Jerusalem should remain under Israeli control if for no other reason than the stewardship that the Israelis have provided.
@William Demuth- "Neither side is loyal to anything other than their imaginary sky freinds."
You are sooo off the rails.
Your guess is incorrect.
Regarding Iran: Israel is not the only one with an interest in this issue. The Arab nations in the ME do not want Iran to have nuclear weapons because they consider Iran a threat to their independence. The USA and Europe are afraid of the nightmare scenario or Iran supplying terrorists with these weapons and of Iran dominance of ME energy supplies. Unfortunately the rhetoric from Iran has been anything but reassuring, and these parties do not trust them.
blah blah blah blah again? blah blah blah.
An absolutely fascinating read.
I would surmise that many gentiles don't realize the diversity of opinion within the American Jewish community (and to think that people within a group are "all the same" is the root of stupidity).
By the way, who is the woman in the photo in the yellow/white striped shirt? What a cutie!!!
No, Steve. – She is, at best...."attractive", no more. You're just fixated on the rack.
Steve
Sorry dude, but she is a TROLL.
Why as a nation are we so concerned with Israel? What does Israel really have to do with the USA?
AIPAC for starters.
No Norman..not for starters. How about that Israel was the only real democracy in the Middle East. The American Israel Public Affairs Committee wasn't even started till 1963.
Just the top of the list, Uncouth. But democracy? In a Jewish State? How is that working out?
Not sure I've been given a reason to give a d**mn
Because they are about to start a war they can not finish without using nuclear weapons.
Zionisim, or any other belief that leads some to lay claim to a piece of land based on an imaginary God is the DEFINITION of bigotry, and we are watching that elitest system drag the US into a religious conflict.
Israel has ZERO shot in a conventional war with IRAQ, so if it starts, either we intervene or it goes to the brink within hours.
Neither side of the conflict is worth a single dollar or drop of American blood.
It has NOTHING to do with us. Christians support Israel no matter how much Israel messes with everyone else. The always will because their 2 thousand year old dusty book says too. And we all know that Christians choose conflict over common sense every time.
Why so concerned with Israel ? Simple. Because first, most ppl believe that, were it not for our support of Israel, the Arab world would love us and we would no longer need the TSA; second, because the world loves an underdog and hates the "overdog" – Israel is the "overdog" when it comes to the PALs. Third, there is a lot of jealousy over the Jewish ppl's inordinate success vis-a-vis their percentage of the population, as compared with other minorities.
AIPAC used to stand for American Israeli *POLITICAL ACTION* Committee. After reading the original article, I recall thinkiing to myself, "And what might this suggest about the role or purpose that some Jews think that the U.S. plays w.r.t. Israel in this world??"
"But democracy? In a Jewish State? How is that working out?"
Working out pretty dang well for the citizens of Israel. Really high standard of living. Open elections. Citizens treated as equals whether they are Druze, Jewish or Palestinian. Religious freedom and a free press.
Uncouth -
Yes, "working out well for Israelis" – but, let's go farther....it's also working out well for the 7 Arab political Parties in Knesset; also working out well for Arabs who have more civil rights in Israel than they do in Arab countries.
@William Demuth- I think you meant Iran instead of Iraq right?
After all the wars with the Arab nations around them, I would not count out Israel if a war broke out between them and Iran. Also, let's be frank here and basically say their will not be any war between Israel and Iran in the near future. Unlike past wars, Iran has to cross Jordan and Iraq to get to Israel. That is not going to happen unless Iran wants a full out world war on their doorstep. The leaders of Iran like living too much to let that happen.
Also, Iran in at war with Israel in a form of a proxy war. They have their puppets Hezbollah attacking Israel.
Also..there has been a historical presence of the Jewish ppl in Israel for thosands of years. That is historical fact. You don't even need anything religious to go with that. Do not forget that the land in question belonged to Britain after WWI and they could do whatever they wanted to do with it. If you are really wanting to be fair, give the land back to the Turks. That should go over big.
Jeff and Swain
Democracy + Religion is Theocracy.
Israel by its own admonation is a JEWISH state.
Do you REALLY believe if the people decided to vote to make it a Muslim state it would happen?
The "Non Special" peoples would simply be killed or put into camps as the Palestinians have been.
@Jeff- "Yes, "working out well for Israelis" – but, let's go farther....it's also working out well for the 7 Arab political Parties in Knesset; also working out well for Arabs who have more civil rights in Israel than they do in Arab countries."
Very very true.
William:
You seem to have a problem with Israel being a "Jewish" state, yet no problem at all with the 16 "Islamic" states in the region.
now...why IS that ?
Did you hear about the $5 millions plus another $5 millions given to Newt G. campaign by a billionaire Jew? One example of many. What do you think the policy towards Israel will be if Newt G. becomes president?
@William Demuth- Normally I can admire much of your wiritng, but you are way off your game. Israel is in no way a Theocracy. If it was, there would be no Islamic waqf in charge of the Temple Mount area.
You do realize that Jewish can also be considered an ethnic group because of heritage.
"be killed or put into camps as the Palestinians have been."
Oh my gosh...how dumb can you be on this? I won't say that Israel has doen everything right...they have done things I dislike a lot in the past. But, Israel has never taken a "kill all Palestinians" perspective in their history. EVER. As far as the camps are concerned, if the arabs had not brought about the 1948 war, they might very well still be living in Israel. For your crazy notion to work...Israel wouldn't have a single Palestinian within their borders.
Israel is not a democracy but a theocracy. Jews get special treatment and non-Jews do not. Jews get to steal Palestinian land and non-Jews get to languish in poverty. Screw Israel.
Angry Jew:
Perhaps a little less anger, and a little more substance would give you "some" credit as "believable" in this thread.
"better to keep your mouth shut and have ppl think you a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt".
We cannot,nor should we think that we can "FIX" a problem that has been going on since the beginning of civilization.
@AngryJew- "Israel is not a democracy but a theocracy. Jews get special treatment and non-Jews do not."
You ever heard of the Druze? Did you know that they did not have to serve in the Israeli Military because of their religion...which is NOT Jewish? Sounds like special treatment to me..gasp..guess that means you are wrong again.
Palestinian or Jew, they are all terrorists, all discrimanatory, and need to come out of the dark ages.
You John are an idiot. Plz reference ht tp://w w w.jewishvirtuallibrary.o r g/jsource/Judaism/nobels.h t m l
I don't think it is wise to tell the Jews to come out of the dark ages, nor that of the Palestinians.
They are both Semite fighting over land and resources. It has nothing to do with religion and all to do with politics and economics.
And there is no internal conflict in the Arab community? After 9/11, there should have been. Why no article on that? Oh, I know, I forgot, this is CNN.
Just read a great article about an American just back from Iran. Travelled everywhere. Said they were the nicest people he had ever met, and in every city he went everyone citizen he met LOVED America, Americans. He said they love Obama, and incredibly, he said they even liked George Bush.
People are people everywhere, and this 'Us-Them' stuff pretty much is causing lots of problems everywhere – especially here in America.
I love how CNN makes up all this BS..
Try reporting on current events instead of something from the 1980s and about a single person who published a stupid paper.........
AND CNN PLEASE ANSWER THIS!!
HOW COME EVERY TIME SOMEONE JEWISH SAYS OR DOES SOMETHING CNN MAKES SURE TO NOTE THAT HE IS "JEWISH" AND ONLY FOCUSES ON THE RELIGION AND NOT THAT PERSON??
AND HOW COME THEY NEVER PUT ANYONE ELSES RELIGION IN ANY OTHER STORY THEY REPORT.
This is the belief section of CNN. It might make sense to put the person's faith down.
CNN does it too with other stories they have in the faith section.
Tony, there are many folks of Jewish heritage that are not religious both here and abroad. There are many people of Jewish heritage that don't necessarily follow the hard line of the Israeli State. You really should not jump to conclusions like your posting does. CNN is not making anything up here, read the news yourself and you'll see. There is an excellent book called Pity the Nation that you may want to read to further educate yourself about these issues. Just a suggestion.
Did you actually READ the article before responding with that?
QUOTE: "The most striking criticism came from the Jewish community itself, which collectively held its nose and harshly denounced the column by Andrew Adler, who is also the owner of the weekly paper, the Atlanta Jewish Times. Anti-Defamation League national director Abraham Foxman called Adler's words "irresponsible and extremist."
Yes, despite your accusation that CNN was putting "Jewish" on this story irresponsibly, the fact is the controversy stems from an editorial opinion published by a Jewish editor in a Jewish newspaper.
"Ancient texts" is obviously a reference to some other issue that you have in your head. You know, the problem with belief is a strong belief is like an obsession disorder. If you are obsessing over some discussion you heard elsewhere, and have a message like "Israel is ruled by ancient texts and this is bad" in your head, I can see where you might interject your belief into anything you subsequently read or hear. This is akin to brainwashing.
When some organization has an agenda and an obvious fact is blocking them from getting everyone's agreement, they will propagandize by repeating lies in every contect they can. This immediately is effective on believers and the ignorant who may not know the true facts.
The world is full of examples. A group of people have some traditional hatred of their neighbors. Maybe it goes back a thousand years, but the people hear from their ancestors that their neighbors committed some wrong, but it later becomes political ammunition to further the cause of some later scheme, such as 'lets kick those people out of the slum we placed them in twenty years ago, we can claim they are formenting revolt, or committing crimes, or in worst cases, committing murders or other atrocities'.
I recall many Christian communities claiming that Jews ate Christian children, which we know is stupid and wrong, but people died because of that lie, and many like it.
So look, if you look at a news story and can only think how that meshes with your hatred, you are the problem. You are what is wrong with the world.
Promote knowledge and respect wisdom and reject divisive lies. Your kids will live in a better world if you do.
CNN likes to stir up controversy. still the bottom line is the world is what it is because of the horrors of religion. the imaginary god gave israel land is very elitist and illogical. and now, america has to die for the jews while none of the american jews go to war. let the blacks, hispanics, and christian americans die in the name of israel while the american jews go about their business. nice.
Both of you are wrong, way wrong, and way ignorant. Israelis are not 'killing' based on ancient texts. They are killing to protect their nation and their homes. Perhaps you have msised the thousands of missiles falling on them?
Rained death on the Israelis did they? No doubt thousands were killed. Where can I read about this?
You are insinuating that Palestinians are committing the most horrendous acts of terror. You should be careful with this argument, you may be asked to provide Proof of what you say. That will lead you down the road of which people are the "Real" Terrorist", Palestinian or Israeli.
Kool Ice Kold Soda Sorry too late, please provide your proof or apologize for attempting to Mislead us.
First of all....KIKS is right in that Israel is not defending themselves because of ancient texts. They're a nation and like the US has the right to protect it's citizens against dangers.
He is also right about the rockets that have been shot from Palestinian controlled areas. Luckily, these rockets are not very sophisticated and usually miss hurting anyone. However, the very fact that they are unreliable shows that the terrorists involved are not trying to miss civilians.
Let's be extremely clear on one thing...terrorist does not equal Palestinian.
Uncouth Swain, I agree with your first point but, they are occupying the land and spreading out based on an ancient text. I would argue that by Any definition of "Terrorism or State Sponsored Terrorism" Israel would be a better fit than Palestine.
Anyone care to argue that point?
nice name anti semitic at all?
@johnquest the uneducated.. YOU WILL SHOW PROOF THAT ISREALIS' ARE TORTURING THE PALESTINIANS. YOU CANT USE ONE OF THE FAILING NEWSPAPERS AS YOUR PROOF SINCE THEY SHOW A BIAS TOWARDS THE PALESTINIANS. Show us Mr. Liberal your proof. You can't can you? Because my friend the facts do not support your claim. The facts are to the opposite. you have not heard of Palestinians firing off hundreds of the Qusam rockets daily towards isreal? You have not heard of the cowardess Palestinians strapping bomb belts and walking across certain parts of the border and blowing themselves up in public? i guess not you only get the news when the media reports aggression from retaliation from the IDF. You are the typical microsyphalic of the Obama administration.
JohnQuest- "...they are occupying the land and spreading out based on an ancient text. I would argue that by Any definition of "Terrorism or State Sponsored Terrorism" Israel would be a better fit than Palestine. "
By land..what do you mean? The land parti_tioned to Israel in 1948 by the UN via Britain? The same manner that helped bring Jordan and Lebannon into being? Do you mean the land that they had to defend because the arabs decided to attack in that very year on them?
I have to agree with you on the aspect of "state". Israel is a state and there is no state of Palestine. I always found it odd that the Palestinians were not running to the UN and yelling out against Egypt occupying Gaza and Jordan occupying the West Bank prior to 1967.
As for ancient texts...I have never seen a mandate of Israel's that called for attacking their neighbors and referenced any ancient text.
What people seem to miss is that the Israeli nation was only established decades ago, and it was established by forcing the people who were already there to get out. The actions of the Palestinians since then are completely reprehensible, but the Israeli government has never put any real effort into making peace with the people they're trying to force out of the land.
As for the idiots who think this has nothing to do with ancient texts: try to remember why people are even fighting over that strip of land.
Look more closely, Uncouth. What exactly is Eretz Yisrael? Found in no ancient text? Never referenced in the foundation of Israel?
Dan to date by "Most" accounts Israel has killed, wounded 5 -10 times more Palestinians than the reverse, (that includes women and children). Israel removes that homes of "suspected" Bombers leave the occupants (usually women and children) homeless. Israel controls all movement in and out of the all Palestine Territory including meds, food, and other humanitarian aid.
The Only Justification for Occupying the land we have been told is "God gave the Land to the Jews" I think that can be read that they are occupying the land based on an ancient text.
Seems to be by those standards Israel is the Terrorist.
@iamdeadlyserious- "What people seem to miss is that the Israeli nation was only established decades ago, and it was established by forcing the people who were already there to get out."
~Wrong. If that was the case..can you explain the 1.4 million Arab citizens of Israel?
Leb. 1941
Jordan 1946
Egypt (Republic) 1953
Decades ago...so what?
"The actions of the Palestinians since then are completely reprehensible, but the Israeli government has never put any real effort into making peace with the people they're trying to force out of the land."
~Wrong. Killing civilians (either side) is NOT justifiable. Pulling out of Gaza wasn't a "real" effort?
Honestly, I wish the Palestinians could get some leadership that realizes the stark reality of their situation and work with what they have and build on that.
"As for the idiots who think this has nothing to do with ancient texts: try to remember why people are even fighting over that strip of land."
Well idiot, I doubt that the Palestinians are fighting over it because of any ancient text. I also doubt any typical liberal Israeli is fighting over it for any ancient text. You have heard of Manifest Destiny right? That was religious based. If you had to defend this country and someone said it was because of religion you would probably call them nuts. You would not defend your nation over some religous concept that helped form it over a century ago. You would be defending it because it's your nation.
@Norman- "What exactly is Eretz Yisrael? Found in no ancient text? Never referenced in the foundation of Israel?"
Gasp...oh my...Jerusalem is also in ancient texts. What is your point Norman?
The State of Israel goes by Medīnat Yisrā'el.
@JohnQuest- "to date by "Most" accounts Israel has killed, wounded 5 -10 times more Palestinians than the reverse, (that includes women and children)."
~Could it be because their is a vast difference in a well trained military and a terrorist group? Could it be that the Palestinian terrorists tend to launch rockets from civilian areas? Areas where Israel has to go to take them out and shockingly civilians get hurt or killed. How about the terrorists stop hiding behind their women and children.
"Israel removes that homes of "suspected" Bombers leave the occupants (usually women and children) homeless. Israel controls all movement in and out of the all Palestine Territory including meds, food, and other humanitarian aid."
Now this is one thing that Israel has done in the past that I do not agree with. Let's keep in mind that Israel has also destroyed the homes of Jewish ppl too.
No, Israel does NOT control all movement in the Palestinian Territories. Are we forgetting the border with Gaza/Egypt? Or perhaps the vast border of the West Bank/Jordan?
"The Only Justification for Occupying the land we have been told is "God gave the Land to the Jews" I think that can be read that they are occupying the land based on an ancient text."
~Wrong. Are you denying that there has been an ancient Jewish presence within what is now called Israel? Forget the religious angle....have their been Jews living on the land even when their was no Temple? The focal point of Jewish worship? An ethnic group known as Jews have always had a presence there.
"Seems to be by those standards Israel is the Terrorist."
Your standards are garbage.
israeli jews i have no problem. but why do american jews force the government to send non-jew americans to die in the middle east so american jews can continue banking and media careers. i respect isreali jews, but american jews are so hypocritical its pathetic. send the poor white, blacks and hispanics to die for israel while american jews provide no sacrifice. nice.
Israel-We pray for your peace!
How can an American identify with a country where the haredi are allowed to sponge off the state and humiliate women in the streets? Or one that enforces the world's largest ghetto – Gaza?
Perhaps you should identify yourself with Iran.
And why should Americans identify with either? Iran and Israel – let them both go hang.
@Norman- Gaza has a higher standard of living than just about the entire continent of Africa. And don't forget that little border with Egypt. You would make it seem like ppl are dying in the streets from starvation.
When you can't come and go as you please and all outside aid and access is controlled it's a ghetto, Uncouth. If you believe the standard of living is admirable to anyone you're strange.
Norman....where is your rage against Egypt? They have a border with Gaza yes? You do know this right?
As for the standard of living, plz reference this: ht tp://w w w.examiner.c o m/israel-conflict-in-new-york/gaza-living-standard-exceeds-egypt-s
You must mean Egypt. pre 1967Gaza was part of Egypt. When they got the Sinai peninsula back in the peace treaty they did not want the Gaza strip back.
So what is going to happen to Andrew Adler??? Is this incident going to be swept under the carpet? He should be tried for treason!!! If this were anyone else, this story would be making front page news and the aftermath would be on all channels. I had to google this to find out anything.
Treason as defined in the U.S: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. Hmmm...Israel is our friend, right?
With Israel as our "friend" who needs enemies?
Israel is the real enemy.
No they aren't.
No. It's like America has a friend. A frightened old man holed up in a run-down apartment in a really bad neighborhood. He's delusional and he has a gun – several. Somehow we have to talk him out of there before someone gets hurt.
You are a riot Norman. If you ever get a chance to go...plz go and visit Israel with an open mind. You will see a nation that is not in any way a sick old delusional man. Israel is the most liberal nation in the Middle East and does not rely on the US to exist. Unless you can a few israeli wars that had the US fighting along side of them. Can you?
Does not rely on the U.S. to exist? Well, you should cut them loose and see how that goes. Most liberal nation in the Middle East? How impressive.
Nope... you are.
BTW – the next time you are sick and need a new antibiotic thank your local israelli. Their pharma research is second to none.
Screw Israel. We need jobs and schools and factories in the USA. Keep our taxes here. No more welfare for Israel.
May be when one considers that America alienates the whole region for a small country instead of considering the whole region as a market to expand its exports.
@Norman- "Does not rely on the U.S. to exist? Well, you should cut them loose and see how that goes. Most liberal nation in the Middle East? How impressive."
Can you plz point out how they ever needed us to exist after their founding?
Their GDP is about $235.446 billion and they rank in the top 25 of competi_tive economies.
They have a well trained army consisting of 2.4-2.9 million ppl.
When I point out that they are liberal...I mean that they are not a religious tyrant society that kills gays or keep their women locked up like their neighbors do.
@AngryJew- Have you ever wrote to your congressperson before on the topic of our taxes going to Israel?
@wittynotes- We gave over 9 billion to Jordan since the 1950's.
We give the Palestinians over 1 billion in aid a year.
We supported many of the arab nations when they wanted to get rid of their govts this past year.
israel has a right for self-preservation. the problem is that american jews coerce the government to send non-jew blacks, hispanics and whites to die for israel while american jews go about their business. very nasty strategy.
This whole situation is grotesque.
Two groups of people killing each other and morally justifying it by quoting from a bunch of ancient texts. And that doesn't even begin to get into the disgusting involvement of the Christian right in this mess.
Absolutely no one is in the right here, and the world would be better off if the whole area in question was underwater. No land, no ridiculous argument.
I doubt you are going to find too many israeli Govt officials that ever used any "ancient texts" to justify protecting their citizens.
Lol..for your suggestion to work....we would also have to say goodbye to Florida. Israel has some high up regions.
Actually the right for Israel to exist is based on 'ancient texts' like the bible,Torah, etc. It is 'the promised land'. It is what the creation of this state was based on. And, like the same ancient texts say, they will exterminate the Palestinians (of the land formerly known as Canaan). Nothing's changed.
Quinn-Which history book have you been reading? probably you can shed some light on this?
@Lise Quinn- I see a lot of guesswork and no facts from you.