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The Jesus debate: Man vs. myth
Does Easter celebrate a man, a savior, or a myth? Some say Jesus never existed and was a myth created by early Christians.
April 7th, 2012
08:32 PM ET

The Jesus debate: Man vs. myth

By John Blake, CNN

(CNN)– Timothy Freke was flipping through an old academic book when he came across a religious image that some would call obscene.

It was a drawing of a third-century amulet depicting a naked man nailed to a cross. The man was born of a virgin, preached about being “born again” and had risen from the dead after crucifixion, Freke says.

But the name on the amulet wasn’t Jesus. It was a pseudonym for Osiris-Dionysus, a pagan god in ancient Mediterranean culture.  Freke says the amulet was evidence of something that sounds like sacrilege – and some would say it is: that Jesus never existed. He was a myth created by first-century Jews who modeled him after other dying and resurrected pagan gods, says Freke, author of  "The Jesus Mysteries: Was the ‘Original Jesus’ a Pagan God?"

“If I said to you that there was no real Good Samaritan, I don’t think anyone would be outraged,” says Freke, one of a group of mythicists who say Jesus never existed. “It’s a teaching story. What we’re saying is that the Jesus story is an allegory. It’s a parable of the spiritual journey.”

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

On Easter Sunday, millions of Christians worldwide mark the resurrection of Jesus. Though Christians clash over many issues, almost all agree that he existed.

But there is another view of Jesus that’s been emerging, one that strikes at the heart of the Easter story. A number of authors and scholars say Jesus never existed. Such assertions could have been ignored in an earlier age.  But in the age of the Internet and self-publishing, these arguments have gained enough traction that some of the world’s leading New Testament scholars feel compelled to publicly take them on.

Most Jesus deniers are Internet kooks, says Bart D. Ehrman, a New Testament scholar who recently released a book devoted to the question called “Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth.”

Your comments on Jesus deniers

He says Freke and others who deny Jesus’ existence are conspiracy theorists trying to sell books.

“There are people out there who don’t think the Holocaust happened, there wasn’t a lone JFK assassin and Obama wasn’t born in the U.S.,” Ehrman says. “Among them are people who don’t think Jesus existed.”

Does it matter if Jesus existed?

Some Jesus mythicists say many New Testament scholars are intellectual snobs.

“I don’t think I’m some Internet kook or Holocaust denier,” says Robert Price, a former Baptist pastor who argues in “Deconstructing Jesus” that a historical Jesus probably didn’t exist.

“They say I’m a bitter ex-fundamentalist. It’s pathetic to see this character assassination. That’s what people resort to when they don’t have solid arguments.”

 The debate over Jesus’ existence has led to a curious role reversal. Two of the New Testament scholars who are leading the way arguing for Jesus’ existence have a reputation for attacking, not defending, traditional Christianity.

Ehrman, for example, is an agnostic who has written books that argue that virtually half  of the New Testament is forged. Another defender of Jesus’ existence is John Dominic Crossan, a New Testament scholar who has been called a heretic because his books challenge some traditional Christian teachings.

But as to the existence of Jesus, Crossan says, he’s “certain.”

He says some Jesus deniers may be people who have a problem with Christianity.

“It’s a way of responding to something you don’t like,” Crossan says. “We can’t say that Obama doesn’t exist, but we can say that he’s not an American.  If we’re talking about Obama in the future, there are people who might not only say he wasn’t American, but he didn’t even exist.”

Does it even matter if Jesus existed? Can’t people derive inspiration from his teachings whether he actually walked the Earth?

Crossan says Jesus’ existence matters in the same way that the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.’s existence mattered.

If King never existed, people would say his ideas are lovely, but they could never work in the real world, Crossan says.

It’s the same with an historical Jesus, Crossan writes in his latest book, “The Power of Parable: How Fiction by Jesus Became Fiction about Jesus.”

“The power of Jesus’ historical life challenges his followers by proving at least one human being could cooperate fully with God. And if one, why not others? If some, why not all?”

The evidence against Jesus’ existence

Those who argue against Jesus’ existence make some of these points:

-The uncanny parallels between pagan stories in the ancient world and the stories of Jesus.

-No credible sources outside the Bible say Jesus existed.

-The Apostle Paul never referred to a historical Jesus.

Price, author of “Deconstructing Jesus,” says the first-century Western world was full of stories of a martyred hero who is called a son of God.

“There are ancient novels from that period where the hero is condemned to the cross and even crucified, but he escapes and survives it,” Price says. “That looks like Jesus.”

Those who argue for the existence of Jesus often cite two external biblical sources: the Jewish historian Josephus who wrote about Jesus at the end of the first century and the Roman historian Tacitus, who wrote about Jesus at the start of the second century.

But some scholars say Josephus’ passage was tampered with by later Christian authors. And Price says the two historians are not credible on Jesus.

“Josephus and Tacitus – they both thought Hercules was a true figure,” Price says. “Both of them spoke of Hercules as a figure that existed.”

Price concedes that there were plenty of mythical stories that were draped around historical figures like Caesar. But there’s plenty of secular documentation to show Caesar existed.

“Everything we read about Jesus in the gospels conforms to the mythic hero,” Price says. “There’s nothing left over that indicates that he was a real historical figure.”

Those who argue for the existence of Jesus cite another source: the testimony of the Apostle Paul and Jesus’ early disciples. Paul even writes in one New Testament passage about meeting James, the brother of Jesus.

These early disciples not only believed Jesus was real but were willing to die for him. People don’t die for myths, some biblical scholars say.

They will if the experience is powerful enough, says Richard Carrier, author of “Proving History.”

Carrier says it’s probable that Jesus never really existed and that early Christians experienced a mythic Jesus who came to them through visions and revelations.

Two of the most famous stories in the New Testament – the conversion of Paul and the stoning death of Stephen, one of the first Christian martyrs - show that people seized by religious visions are willing to die, Carrier says.

In both the Paul and Stephen stories, the writers say that they didn’t see an actual Jesus but a heavenly vision of Jesus, Carrier says.

People “can have powerful religious experiences that don’t correspond to reality,” Carrier says.

“The perfect model is Paul himself,” Carrier says. “He never met Jesus. Paul only had an encounter with this heavenly Jesus. Paul is completely converted by this religious experience, but no historical Jesus is needed for that to happen.”

As for the passage where Paul says he met James, Jesus’ brother, Carrier says:

“The problem with that is that all baptized Christians were considered brothers of the Lord.”

The evidence for Jesus’ existence

Some scholars who argue for the existence of Jesus says the New Testament mentions actual people and events that are substantiated by historical documents and archaeological discoveries.

Ehrman, author of “Did Jesus Exist?” scoffed at the notion that the ancient world was full of pagan stories about dying deities that rose again.  Where’s the proof? he asks.

Ehrman devoted an entire section of his book to critiquing Freke, the mythicist and author of “The Jesus Mysteries: Was the ‘Original Jesus’ a Pagan God?” who says there was an ancient Osiris-Dionysus figure who shares uncanny parallels to Jesus.

He says Freke can’t offer any proof that an ancient Osiris figure was born on December 25, was crucified and rose again. He says Freke is citing 20th- and 19th-century writers who tossed out the same theories.

Ehrman says that when you read ancient stories about mythological figures like Hercules and Osiris, “there’s nothing about them dying and rising again.”

“He doesn’t know much about ancient history,” Ehrman says of Freke. “He’s not a scholar. All he knows is what he’s read in other conspiracy books.”

Craig A. Evans, the author of “Jesus and His World: The Archaeological Evidence,” says the notion that Paul gave his life for a mythical Jesus is absurd.

He says the New Testament clearly shows that Paul was an early enemy of the Christian church who sought to stamp out the burgeoning Jesus movement.

“Don’t you think if you were in Paul’s shoes, you would have quickly discovered that there was no Jesus?” Evans asks.  “If there was no Jesus, then how did the movement start?”

Evans also dismissed the notion that early Christians blended or adopted pagan myths to create their own mythical Jesus. He says the first Christians were Jews who despised everything about pagan culture.

“For a lot of Jewish people, the pagan world was disgusting,” Evans says. “I can’t imagine [the Gospel writer] Matthew making up a story where he is drawing parallels between Jesus’ birth and pagan stories about Zeus having sex with some fair maiden.”

The words of Jesus also offer proof that he actually existed, Evans says.  A vivid personality practically bursts from the pages of the New Testament: He speaks in riddles, talks about camels squeezing through the eye of a needle, weeps openly and even loses his temper.

Evans says he is a man who is undeniably Jewish, a genius who understands his culture but also transcends his tradition with gem-like parables.

“Who but Jesus could tell the Parable of the Good Samaritan?” Evans says. “Where does this bolt of lightning come from? You don’t get this out of an Egyptian myth.”

Those who argue against the existence of Jesus say they aren’t trying to destroy people’s faith.

“I don’t have any desire to upset people,” says Freke. “I do have a passion for the truth. … I don’t think rational people in the 20th century can go down a road just on blind faith.”

Yet Easter was never just about rationale.

The Easter stories about the resurrection are strange: Disciples don’t recognize Jesus as they meet him on the road; he tells someone not to touch him; he  eats fish in another.

In the Gospel of Matthew, a resurrected Jesus suddenly appears to a group of disciples and gives them this cryptic message:

“Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”

And what did they see: a person, a pagan myth or a savior?

Albert Schweitzer, a 20th-century theologian and missionary, suggested that there will never be one answer to that question.  He said that looking for Jesus in history is like looking down a well: You see only your own reflection.

The “real” Jesus, Schweitzer says, will remain “a stranger and an enigma,” someone who is always ahead of us.

- CNN Writer

Filed under: Art • Belief • Books • Church • Culture wars • Easter • Easter • Evangelical • Faith • History • Jesus • Uncategorized • Virgin Mary

soundoff (8,771 Responses)
  1. Me

    Man,... Jesus (as a Son) already know (this discussion) more than 2000 years ago, even with much more genius Jews rather than Timothy Freke. But who is this Timothy .. isn't it the names of one of Jesus Desciples at that time?. So, it's ok to discuss everything on your mind but I suggest you have to read much carefull from the Bible again and again rather than you have to find the answer outside. Bin Laden and his followers (as a terorist) proved that the fruit of what he believe in his teacher is wrong. He and his follower along with his teacher will not resurection again but go to hell of fire. So, it is up to you to believe but the result is crystal clear, the Kingdom of Heaven or Hell. Go Bless and see you in Heaven. Bless be The Name of the Lord, Jesus I Love you. Regard.

    April 12, 2012 at 8:47 pm |
    • J.A. ABRAMS

      OUR GOD IS GOD. There is a lot of evidence for the existence of the Christian GOD, Jesus called HIS Father. And for Jesus Christ. It is interesting that this debate starts on Easter because his resurrection and the exact day it and other events happened is part of this proof. The Pasover, Wave Sheaf and Pentecost were all fulfilled on their EXACT DAYS about 1,500 years AFTER they were given to Moses. And the remaining Holy Days are all set to be fulfilled in precise order on their exact days, too.

      April 12, 2012 at 9:32 pm |
    • WASP

      @me: "Bin Laden and his followers (as a terorist) proved that the fruit of what he believe in his teacher is wrong. He and his follower along with his teacher will not resurection again but go to hell of fire. So, it is up to you to believe but the result is crystal clear, the Kingdom of Heaven or Hell."

      i'm pretty certain those that followed bin laden also believed they would be rewarded for attacking us, so what's your point. you think they went to hell they believed they were going to heaven. funny how faith works huh.
      next point, please show proof, not faith, of heaven or hell...... a 8 digit grid coordinate will surfice.

      April 13, 2012 at 7:53 am |
  2. steviep

    The technique used for producing the image is, according to W. McCrone, already described in a book about medieval painting published in 1847 by Charles Lock Eastlake ("Methods and Materials of Painting of the Great Schools and Masters"). Eastlake describes in the chapter "Practice of Painting Generally During the XIVth Century" a special technique of painting on linen using tempera paint, which produces images with unusual transparent features—which McCrone compares to the image on the shroud.[129]

    @waspThis hypothesis was declared to be unsound as the X-ray fluorescence examination, as well as infrared thermography, did not point out any pigment.[130][131][132] It was also found that 25 different solvents, among them water, do not reduce or sponge out the image.[133] The non-paint origin has been further claimed by Fourier transform of the image: common paintings show a directionality that is absent from the Turin Shroud.[134]
    ....."""""""""""""""""""""""""""'the shroud cannot be proven a fake.....its seen as authentic so i think ur wron on that, good points about science seeing at microscopic level though! how about the 10th dimension though and things beyond our range of site?

    April 12, 2012 at 7:16 pm |
    • steviep

      again its personal experience and not necessarily physical evidence.....i d like to hear what u think about what i said concerning someone knowing not to go down a certain road, and later finding out the bridge was closed,,,,,,,science doesnt have all the answers and many scientist do lean towards a creator

      April 12, 2012 at 7:26 pm |
    • Cq

      steviep
      Our ancestors lived much like wild animals do today, so it isn't unreasonable that some to their survival instinct still guides us in ways we don't realize. Picking up on subtle factors that our minds don't register we choose correctly based on instinct, but ask yourself how often do we choose the worse possible way, leading to disaster? For every "miracle" choice in one's favor somebody probably chooses badly, and ends up running into a serial killer or drunk driver, ending their lives. The good outcome stories are inspirational, and get highlighted on Christian TV whereas the bad outcome stories aren't mentioned so much because they're a downer. Same goes for all the "miracles" out there. They're just one end of the bell curve of experience being especially highlighted.

      Which scientists lean towards a creator? Names and credentials, please. I'll bet none of them are experts in the field, or still alive. Hell, not many were alive in the 20th century.

      April 13, 2012 at 12:06 am |
    • WASP

      @steviep: have you ever had or seen an x-ray? ever wonder why all you see is bone and everything else is blurry? because x-rays pass straight through soft tissue and get absorbed by the denser bone. thus you can see bone. if i x-ray my shirt it would show nothing. the gentleman in question took samples from the turin cloth and tested them winning an award for his findings, it was only refuted by religious folks scared their only thing outside the bible to prove jesus to their worshippers was unraveling. the carbon dating doesn't match. thus it's a fake. the pigment is caused by paint, thus it's a fake. it hasn't stood up to testing at all. thus it's a fake.

      April 13, 2012 at 6:36 am |
    • WASP

      @steviep: "how about the 10th dimension though and things beyond our range of site?"
      1) we can see things at the sub-atomic level, not just microscopic level.
      2) nice dodge there on the whole bible being in question section......i almost missed that sly move.
      3) so you're bringing modern quantum physics into a debate over a cloth that is or isn't jesus' death shroud? really? your going to use science to prove your stance? how original, i think the creationists have already tried that and got a nice museum out of it. the theory you are refering to known as the "M theory" would only go to prove no god needed to create the universe due to the fact the theory states our "big bang" was merely one of trillions that have happened and will happen from now until.....as we know it forever. our universe will die and a new one will be born. hopefully the inhabitants of that one aren't as gullible as the inhabitants of this one.

      April 13, 2012 at 7:00 am |
    • WASP

      @steviep:"again its personal experience and not necessarily physical evidence.....i d like to hear what u think about what i said concerning someone knowing not to go down a certain road, and later finding out the bridge was closed"

      two points on this one.
      1) what about the person that doesn't know the bridge is out and drives off it? did god ignore that person or were they not worth your god to save? maybe they weren't chirstian enough to be saved?
      2) it's called pre-cognition, better known as a gut feeling or instinct which has been proven to be more powerful in the female gender than in the male. the inner workings of the human mind are a constant mystery to science, but we are making ground in those fields of study.

      April 13, 2012 at 7:46 am |
  3. Muneef

    The Message;

    O Prophet, fear Allah and do not obey the disbelievers and the hypocrites. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise. 33:1

    And follow that which is revealed to you from your Lord. Indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted. 33:2

    And rely upon Allah ; and sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. 33:3
    --

    And [mention, O Muhammad], when We took from the prophets their covenant and from you and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus, the son of Mary; and We took from them a solemn covenant. 33:7

    That He may question the truthful about their truth. And He has prepared for the disbelievers a painful punishment. 33:8
    --
    There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often. 33:21
    -–

    There is not to be upon the Prophet any discomfort concerning that which Allah has imposed upon him. [This is] the established way of Allah with those [prophets] who have passed on before. And ever is the command of Allah a destiny decreed. 33:38

    [ Allah praises] those who convey the messages of Allah and fear Him and do not fear anyone but Allah . And sufficient is Allah as Accountant. 33:39

    Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing. 33:40

    O you who have believed, remember Allah with much remembrance 33:41

    And exalt Him morning and afternoon. 33:42

    It is He who confers blessing upon you, and His angels [ask Him to do so] that He may bring you out from darknesses into the light. And ever is He, to the believers, Merciful. 33:43

    Their greeting the Day they meet Him will be, "Peace." And He has prepared for them a noble reward. 33:44

    O Prophet, indeed We have sent you as a witness and a bringer of good tidings and a warner. 33:45

    And one who invites to Allah , by His permission, and an illuminating lamp.
    33:46

    And give good tidings to the believers that they will have from Allah great bounty. 33:47

    And do not obey the disbelievers and the hypocrites but do not harm them, and rely upon Allah . And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. 33:48
    --–

    Indeed, Allah confers blessing upon the Prophet, and His angels [ask Him to do so]. O you who have believed, ask [ Allah to confer] blessing upon him and ask [ Allah to grant him] peace. 33:56

    Indeed, those who abuse Allah and His Messenger – Allah has cursed them in this world and the Hereafter and prepared for them a humiliating punishment.
    33:57

    And those who harm believing men and believing women for [something] other than what they have earned have certainly born upon themselves a slander and manifest sin.33:58
    ---

    O you who have believed, fear Allah and speak words of appropriate justice.
    33:70
    He will [then] amend for you your deeds and forgive you your sins. And whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly attained a great attainment. 33:71

    April 12, 2012 at 7:09 pm |
    • Cq

      Are the muslims who support terrorism the "hypocrites" mentioned above?

      April 12, 2012 at 11:49 pm |
    • Muneef

      Cq.
      You know you are right there are many of them among Muslims not to mention that they are found among every religion...
      At the time of the Islamic message brought by the Prophet Muhammed (saw) many believed the message and become Muslims but many as well became as Muslims (Submitted)  not because they believed the Message but rather out of fear from believers or because of their greed to enjoy sharing the benefits  with the actual believers or to escape pagans slavery.

      Here are few verses that might explain that;

      The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." 49:14

      The believers are only the ones who have believed in Allah and His Messenger and then doubt not but strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah . It is those who are the truthful. 49:15

      Say, "Would you acquaint Allah with your religion while Allah knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth, and Allah is Knowing of all things?" 49:16

      They consider it a favor to you that they have accepted Islam. Say, "Do not consider your Islam a favor to me. Rather, Allah has conferred favor upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if you should be truthful." 49:17

      Indeed, Allah knows the unseen [aspects] of the heavens and the earth. And Allah is Seeing of what you do. 48:18

      April 13, 2012 at 3:56 pm |
    • Muneef

      And among them, [O Muhammad], are those who listen to you, until when they depart from you, they say to those who were given knowledge, "What has he said just now?" Those are the ones of whom Allah has sealed over their hearts and who have followed their [own] desires. 47:16

      And those who are guided – He increases them in guidance and gives them their righteousness. 47:17

      April 13, 2012 at 4:30 pm |
  4. JM

    “If I discover within myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world”. – C.S. Lewis

    April 12, 2012 at 6:08 pm |
    • Nonimus

      “If I discover within myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world”. – C.S. Lewis

      I thought CS Lewis was an exemplar of Apologetics, but this sounds silly. How does imagination not fill this quandary?

      April 12, 2012 at 6:27 pm |
    • Cq

      So, just because a human being can imagine a better place that place MUST exist? That's funny! I can just imagine Lewis talking like Luke Skywalker doing the Jedi mind trick while saying that. :-)

      April 12, 2012 at 11:47 pm |
    • Commenter

      “If I discover within myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world”.

      Or... you are just a GREEDY bas.tard.

      April 12, 2012 at 11:52 pm |
    • Nonimus

      @Cq,
      Luke? or Yoda?
      "Mmmm.... desire I have... so, another world, must I be made for....mmmm"

      April 13, 2012 at 11:50 am |
    • Cq

      Nonimus
      Apologetics always sound like someone trying to hypnotise you. Kinda like:
      Undecided "I don't see any evidence for Jesus."
      Christian, wiggling fingers "Yes you DO see evidence for Jesus"
      Undecided "Yes, I do see evidence for Jesus."

      Of course, like the movies state, this only works on weak minds. :-)

      April 13, 2012 at 12:04 pm |
    • Nonimus

      @Cq,
      Of course!

      "These are not the evidences you are looking for..."

      "These are not the evidences, move along."

      April 13, 2012 at 1:28 pm |
  5. Paul

    April 12, 2012 at 5:34 pm |
  6. Adam

    It seems obvious that there is uncertainty regarding the historicity of the "facts" presented in the Bible. Logically, many of the claims are as truthful as the hammer of Zeus. The only reasonable conclusion, it seems to me, is to NOT ORGANIZE YOUR ENTIRE LIFE AROUND THE PRESUMPTION THAT THEY ARE ABSOFREAKINLUTELY TRUE.

    That is dumb. That gives you incentive to believe. And that gives you reason to forfeit your intellectual honesty. Don't do that. That is dumb. PREDICATING YOUR LIFE UPON PRETENDING TO KNOW THINGS YOU DO NOT KNOW IS DUMB. Don't do that.

    April 12, 2012 at 4:37 pm |
    • JM

      So one shouldn't search for the truth?

      April 12, 2012 at 6:01 pm |
    • Adam

      One shouldn't lie to themselves and their children about what they know about the universe.

      April 13, 2012 at 11:11 am |
  7. just sayin

    Believing in magical things is the result of a mental illness or disorder. Can anyone dispute this?

    April 12, 2012 at 3:46 pm |
    • just sayin

      Fraud just sayin Tried to sneak away without the God bless. Mommas don't let your babies grow up to be morons. God bless

      April 12, 2012 at 4:03 pm |
    • just sayin

      Speaking of mental illness, disorders and insecurity. lol

      April 12, 2012 at 4:31 pm |
    • just sayin

      Here little ghost

      April 12, 2012 at 4:31 pm |
    • rallycry

      thinking that everything in the world can be explained by logic or reason is a mental disorder. we all know there are many things in the world that cannot be explained by logic or reason.

      April 12, 2012 at 4:35 pm |
    • Almighty Zebra-Zeus

      @rally – such as?

      April 12, 2012 at 4:36 pm |
    • Magic

      Fantasy can be quite pleasurable, and might even be productive, as in unbridled brainstorming for solutions to problems, but to forget about and/or dismiss reality at the end of the process is not an authentic way to live.

      April 12, 2012 at 4:44 pm |
    • just sayin

      rallycry

      thinking that everything in the world can be explained by logic or reason is a mental disorder. we all know there are many things in the world that cannot be explained by logic or reason.

      >
      To primitive supersti tous minds perhaps. The is a line between perceptions/feelings and reality. Problem is supersti tous (religous) people blurr this line so accepting reality is a littl emore challeging as it would be for cavemen to understand a plane or car for example. Primitive minds are like minds of children.

      April 12, 2012 at 4:49 pm |
    • rallycry

      such as the origins of life, origins of the universe, the perfection of all living things. you do realize everything you believe to explain these things through science are all theories and unproven. whenever science cannot explain such things, guess what becomes more plausible to them than God? answer: aliens. lol. what a joke.

      April 12, 2012 at 5:47 pm |
    • rallycry

      dark matter, mind over matter, speed of light, coldfusion, esp, etc..

      April 12, 2012 at 5:50 pm |
    • rallycry

      the creation story in genesis is the first to propose that sea creatures were created first, then birds, then land animals. facts that modern science has proven to be true. how then, did prehistoric people know these things w/o any scientific knowledge? luck, is what you would call it. lol.

      April 12, 2012 at 5:55 pm |
    • JM

      Do you associate with people who believe in God? Work with/for them? Vote for them? Why would you do that? If someone believes in something that is imaginary, that would make them insane. That describes a lot of people in this country and around the world.

      There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way."
      C. S. Lewis

      C. S. Lewis

      April 12, 2012 at 6:06 pm |
    • Cq

      JM
      But God doesn't let us have it our way, does he? No, like any sore loser he gets back at us anyway.

      April 12, 2012 at 11:41 pm |
    • WASP

      @rally:"such as the origins of life, origins of the universe, the perfection of all living things. you do realize everything you believe to explain these things through science are all theories and unproven. whenever science cannot explain such things, guess what becomes more plausible to them than God? answer: aliens. lol. what a joke."

      no aliens aren't what scienctists of a shread of desency reach for. dark energy, dark matter are aspects of our universe that had to be discovered due to the fact something was pushing the galaxies further and further apart at an accelerated rate. aliens are more believed by theists due to the fact god is an alien, per definition and jesus would be a human/alien hybrid, per definition. science doesn't reach for the easy answer or the quick fix, we challenge ourselves to find the truthful answer and demand it be tested by our peers. ask yourself this question; why is it the vatican will only permit a select few in to view it's library and nothing can be veiwed before 100 years has passed from the author. hmmmm so what are they hiding from all it's devote followers?

      April 13, 2012 at 7:16 am |
  8. What is next for John blake now that Resurrection is a reality?
    April 12, 2012 at 3:12 pm |
    • pappadeaux

      Blakie must be waiting for Christmas!

      April 12, 2012 at 3:17 pm |
  9. dilberth

    This video should be of great interest to all concerned. Enjoy!

    April 12, 2012 at 3:01 pm |
  10. avisibleghost

    The shift of early humans from hunter gathers to farmers/settlers gave them more time to ponder and become self-conscious and self- aware. Having more time to relax (instead of worrying about their survival hourly in a harsh environment), they started to reflect and wonder about the environment around them. In this wonderment and self-reflection, they started to formulate such existential questions as why are we here, what is our purpose in life, why do I suffer, where am I going, etc......Since they were not yet sophisticated and advanced enough to answer those questions at that time, they came up with the concept of "God" to help them better understand the unexplainable and to help them make sense of the existential problems of life. At first they started to worship the “natural” world (painting them in their caves thus giving birth to Art) and then finally evolving into worshiping the “supernatural” world. However, the advancement of science and discovery of new evidence thru technology has caused him to start questioning his "God" concept. Therein now lay the crux of the problem for modern humans and which I think is one of major sources of his disenfranchisement to life, his neurosis and to some extent his violent reaction when challenged about the existence of "God" or "Gods".......The irony of it all though is that the introduction of “God” which evolved into God(vernment) is what made humans cooperate more with each other. And which apparently in turn has produced our current seemingly ordered societies and sophisticated cultures that continue to thrive well into the 21st century (I hope).........PEACE!

    April 12, 2012 at 2:48 pm |
    • Daniel Uzza

      18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

      24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

      April 12, 2012 at 3:15 pm |
    • Magic

      avisibleghost,

      Very good.

      I'll add a bit of my musings:

      People are sometimes sort of insulted by the fact that humans are social mammals. They seek a leader (of the pack, if you will), who has qualities of wisdom, benevolence, and the power to protect them from harm. They range from leader of the tribe, to leader of the nation, or some other group unit. Sometimes these human leaders were considered gods. Since humans are aware that their lives will end, and they are not at all thrilled by this fact, they then seek an imaginary leader who will provide the same wisdom, benevolence and protection in a much hoped-for afterlife. It is not surprising that they envision this leader with human-like characteristics of love, anger, wisdom, benevolence, etc.

      April 12, 2012 at 3:21 pm |
    • Daniel Uzza

      Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

      April 12, 2012 at 3:23 pm |
    • Magic

      Daniel Uzza,

      You quote Paul of Tarsus, a misanthropic, misogynistic, body-hating, ranting, raving zealot from the 1st century. There is not a shred of verified evidence for any substance behind his tirades on the supernatural.

      April 12, 2012 at 3:26 pm |
    • just sayin

      I like how people quote rantings of dead men expressing their perceptions. Like it has any relevence to reality. lol

      April 12, 2012 at 3:28 pm |
    • Daniel Uzza

      11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

      15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,

      16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”[c] 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[d] 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

      Hold Fast Your Confession
      19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

      April 12, 2012 at 3:42 pm |
    • Daniel Uzza

      If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which[a] He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.

      April 12, 2012 at 3:47 pm |
    • I wonder

      I wonder if Paul of Tarsus closed his eyes and fell asleep after those lordgasms of his?!

      April 12, 2012 at 3:48 pm |
    • Daniel Uzza

      I am alive today, and I can say with Job: “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
      But now my eye sees You.
      6 Therefore I abhor myself,
      And repent in dust and ashes.”

      April 12, 2012 at 3:51 pm |
    • Daniel Uzza

      Why do the nations rage,
      And the people plot a vain thing?
      2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
      And the rulers take counsel together,
      Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
      3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
      And cast away Their cords from us.”

      4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
      The Lord shall hold them in derision.
      5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
      And distress them in His deep displeasure:
      6 “Yet I have set My King
      On My holy hill of Zion.”

      April 12, 2012 at 4:06 pm |
    • avisibleghost

      Daniel ~

      I have read the bible from cover to cover but thank you for helping me brush up on my bible verses. I have a theology and philosophy exam tomorrow and that will help me a lot. Oh BTW and correct me me if I'm wrong, did you know that the first written account of the bible was in Greek and not Aramaic which was the language of Jesus’s contemporaries. I don’t really have a problem with that except that there is this one tiny detail I can’t get over with ~ Which is being the Ancient Greeks were the number purveyors of the myth that “Man was made in the image of God thing, and that God from time to time comes down from heaven and impregnates mortal women to produces hybrid God/Man offspring’s”.

      April 12, 2012 at 6:00 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Here is an account from Genesis about angels coming down and taking human women for wives.
      Genesis 6
      1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
      2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
      3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
      4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

      April 12, 2012 at 6:07 pm |
    • Al

      @Robert Brown
      What, no women angels? No women angels, no women God parts! My, heaven sounds like a regular paradise for gay men.

      April 12, 2012 at 11:38 pm |
    • Commenter

      Robert Brown: "and they bare children to them,"

      That's what pedophiles groove on - "bare children" - Ugh! and >Shudder<

      April 12, 2012 at 11:46 pm |
    • Daniel Uzza

      Actually started with Hebrew. Nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, 6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

      8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,

      April 13, 2012 at 12:20 pm |
    • avisibleghost

      Robert ~
      You’re missing my point. From a dialectical standpoint translating something will always be inaccurate, biased and prejudiced. This is true in all translated works and not just religious texts…..

      1-Verbal language was invented ahead of written language so that when the ancients tried to write down the bible verses they had to invent written words or symbols to try to approximate what was being said verbally.
      2-Translating something from one language to another let alone one language from another period in time to another period in time of a different language presents another challenge and complication. There are words in one particular language that do not have a corresponding word in the language it is being translated. The sentence structuring also of languages differs from one another and if you literally translate something it will some stupid or funny (i.e. Try singing Star Spangled Banner in Chinese or Aramaic).
      3-Ask one Christian to the another and they will have different opinions on the accuracy of the King James Version of the bible and whether it should be the “official” version. Even now and most recently the Catholic Church revised words from their liturgical rites because in their opinion they felt the old prayers that everybody was praying and putting their faith on for the longest time, did not accurately translate the meaning or spirit of the Bible ooops….
      4-The translator will always imbue in his translated work his/her own cultural, philosophical and political bias and prejudiced on the work he/she translating.

      You don’t even need to read history books and go beyond reading the Bible to know that pedophilia, incest, child labor/slavery were all practiced and allowed at the time of the Bible. Even during the height of the Church’s power in Europe during the Middle Ages thru the Age of Enlightenment, child labor and slavery was the norm……

      April 13, 2012 at 1:04 pm |
    • Daniel Uzza

      Wrong road, mythic starting point. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

      April 13, 2012 at 1:28 pm |
    • Daniel Uzza

      1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
      They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
      There is no one who does good.
      2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
      To see if there are any who understand,
      Who seek after God.
      3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
      There is no one who does good, not even one.

      April 13, 2012 at 1:32 pm |
    • Cq

      Daniel Uzza
      Are you arguing that non-believers must be evil? That's ridiculous, and any book that claims this must also be ridiculous.

      April 13, 2012 at 3:23 pm |
    • Get Real

      Daniel Uzza
      "1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
      They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;"

      A quite old and sometimes effective tactic – declaring that those who do not believe your story are 'fools'. Nobody wants to be considered 'dumb' for not seeing the Emperor's new clothes, or a 'bas.tard' for not seeing the Sultan's new turban, or a 'cuckold' for not being able to see the Miller's gold thumb.

      Even Joseph Smith used it when he gathered his 'witnesses' to his golden plates. He told them that only those with 'true faith' would be able to 'see' them.

      The ancient, primitive Hebrews who originated those Bible stories were quite adept at manipulative mind-games.

      You've been had...

      April 13, 2012 at 3:29 pm |
    • avisibleghost

      Daniel ~
      Since you have been quoting me Judeo/Christian bible scriptures, verses and parable I hope you don’t mind if I tell you a Buddhist parable, you know, to expand your horizon/s a little bit. Here goes:

      One day 2 devote Buddhist monks were walking from one town to another discussing Buddhist scripture and more importantly how we should love and be compassionate with one another. After miles of walking they came upon a river waist deep that did not have any bridges. A beautiful young lady was standing by the shore and called out to both of them saying can you please help me cross the river as I do not know how to swim and I might drown. Monk 1 being devote did not want to touch the lady since it is against their precepts. Monk 2 on the other hand without even thinking took the lady in his arms and carried her across the river with Monk 1 following behind. Once across the other shore the lady thank Monk 2 and went her separate way. Monk 1 & 2 continued on their journey. Somewhere along the way and after several miles and hours of walking, Monk 2 noticed that Monk 1 was now quiet, looked angry, frustrated and aloof. Monk 2 then asked Monk 1 what was bothering him. Monk 1 with all the righteous indignation he could muster, blurted out that it is against their precepts as Buddhist monks to touch, let alone carry a lady. At which point Monk 2 replied, is that all. You mean to say you’ve been carrying that rock in your mind this whole time. It must have been very heavy.

      April 13, 2012 at 3:30 pm |
  11. just sayin

    Wait! there is this one Roman that made an obscure writing that there was a Jesus! He is alive and exists!!!!!!!. God Bless

    April 12, 2012 at 1:04 pm |
    • just sayin

      Oh snap I was wrong. I stand corrected, only writings/recordings are those of Christians. Just ignore the biased of the mythical Jesus...keep walking..you see nothing. God Bless

      April 12, 2012 at 1:08 pm |
    • just sayin

      There are currently about 20 non Biblical references to Jesus in antiquities not counting Gnostic writings. Some are entire books, written in opposition to Christianity.
      It is amusing to see the phony atheist just sayin reduced to having to post God bless on its posts. Nothing but net ! Three pointer for the honest Just sayin ! God bless

      April 12, 2012 at 1:08 pm |
    • just sayin

      Who hoo, bagged a second three pointer over the shoulder mid court toss ! Nothing but Net again ! God bless

      April 12, 2012 at 1:11 pm |
    • just sayin

      Of course I can provide 3rd party confirmation as to the miracles performed by Jesus. I mean I have more than biased writings of Christians and followers. I also have 3rd party confirmation to prove that Jesus was who he said he was and not biased Christians writings. Of course I do.

      April 12, 2012 at 1:12 pm |
    • just sayin

      Points denied, no reference...just words....keep playing

      April 12, 2012 at 1:16 pm |
    • just sayin

      I know I have collaborating 3rd party evidence to all the the claims given or attributed Jesus. I would not just rely on biased writings because that would mean my faith is in men and not a God or Jesus. Gode Bless

      April 12, 2012 at 1:20 pm |
    • just sayin

      The phony just sayin takes the snap, no wait its fumbled back into its own end zone, it misspelled God. Just sayin sweeps in catches the ball before it touches the ground for a touchdown, the crowd goes wild and check out the victory dance followed by the tebow. God bless !

      April 12, 2012 at 1:26 pm |
    • i'm not a referee but i play one on tv

      From where I sit I am going to have to award a lot of points to the honest just sayin. No disputes, independent review on the comments shows clear shots by the God blessing just saying. Anymore outbursts from the phony and we will have to call game.

      April 12, 2012 at 1:32 pm |
    • just sayin

      Well there we have it. We will just have to take the word from the phony. Have faith in what the phony says. God Bless

      April 12, 2012 at 3:30 pm |
    • just sayin

      2nd half. I say there is no 3rd party (otherthan biased Christian rants) to collaborate who Jesus said he was or the miracles he did. Ball back in the phony's court. This is the part that you substantiate your claim. You see my side is established...the "lack of any evidence" part. Touchdown and extra point. Doing Chicken dance in the endzone. God Bless

      April 12, 2012 at 3:36 pm |
    • just sayin

      Some serious errors on the part of the atheist fraud just sayin and still forced to use the God bless. You are pathetic. God bless

      April 12, 2012 at 4:05 pm |
    • just sayin

      You really have no clue as to what is obvious to everybody else. Keep playing. You are a ghost chasing me because of your insecurity. lol I feel bad because you actually might be "special" shall we say. *HINT* I think it is glaring obvious who I am when I post and the rest do as well. lol

      April 12, 2012 at 4:25 pm |
  12. Tom

    You can argue all you want to about this and it makes no difference to us who know. It is not did Jesus exist. We who know his know it as a reality in our lives and not just some obscure thought or abstract idea. He is a reality and we have fellowship with Him every day. Jesus is indeed God.

    April 12, 2012 at 11:38 am |
    • Cq

      But for those of us who do not "know" this, Jesus is not God, and those who wish to dictate what is good and right based on this belief can be ignored, or even challenged.

      April 12, 2012 at 11:47 am |
    • just sayin REAL ONE

      He is real? Where is he? Do you see and hear him?

      April 12, 2012 at 11:50 am |
    • just sayin

      Yes He is real. Until His return He is seated at the right hand of the Father in glory. He makes Himself known to mankind as He always has. God bless

      April 12, 2012 at 11:55 am |
    • Cq

      just sayin
      Psalm 110:1 states ..
      Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."

      Here David (Lord) is placed at God's (LORD) right hand, right? Therefore, being at the right hand of God is just symbolic of being exalted, a place where a human messiah like David or Jesus could be placed by God. Not that they became God in doing this, right?

      April 12, 2012 at 2:24 pm |
    • Sinister

      The Psalm is blatant superst'itious discrimination and prejudice against left-handedness. They could have just said, "by my side", you know!

      April 12, 2012 at 2:33 pm |
    • just sayin

      To the phony, I am guess you have actually seen him sitting at his right side. Or could it be that you are having faith in what a man wrote regarding his personal perceptions? God Bless

      April 12, 2012 at 3:32 pm |
    • just sayin

      Just sayin does not question he states facts busted again atheist phony. You must really be choking on all the God bless posts you are forced to write. God bless

      April 12, 2012 at 4:07 pm |
  13. Voice of Reason

    Final Answer?

    There was no god, there is no god and there will never be a god.

    Yes, that's my final answer.

    April 12, 2012 at 11:09 am |
    • just sayin

      You are going to hell, enjoy it. God Bless

      April 12, 2012 at 3:47 pm |
    • just sayin

      Phony post above. God bless

      April 12, 2012 at 4:08 pm |
  14. steviep

    the shroud was not proven false it was woven in the patterns used at that time,and so much more like the pollen from jerusalem,and even more but how was it proven false? if ur talkin about the carbon dating then i have to tell u that they scientist who did the sampling admitted to taking the samole from the patches!.....and how could european paintins play into this ...they cant but it does show at those times of the paintings that the nails were driving into the hands but the sroud on the other hand has them going threw the wrist just like the romans did their cruccifixtions.

    April 12, 2012 at 10:21 am | Report abuse | Reply

    steviep

    andi dont believe or should i say think that a hell fromaloving god could b possible..i dont even know the meaning of life half the time.....do u?

    April 12, 2012 at 10:25 am | Report abuse |

    steviep

    and u cant just throw out scripueres as evidence,well if u must but thats like getting rid of oj simpsons glove at scene of crime an,or the 911 calls that nicole made,,,,ur dismissing key evidence,,,arent u?

    April 12, 2012 at 10:32 am | Report abuse |

    steviep

    i gots to go to sleep sorrry, just wqanted to let u know im noty hiding in a corner...............and maybe heaven and hell are states of conciousness afterv death, who knows but if u dismiss the bible or god then so be it, thanks for sharing and i hope that we both get something out of this,,,,yeah like more questions...like y did the dinosaurs roam the earth first? and if u only have science to prove god then what if science cant even prove god or isnt the way to prove god?....can science prove that wwhich is unseen beyond our seeing capacity ? and do not many scientist believe in god? and would scientist know ggod if it or he was already here?....is god found in quantum pohysics? is einsteins"gods equation"...a clue into how god or the universal spirit works?.........is dna a part of the language of higher power? if not,then from evolution,well how and why and if we are from stardust then is that where we originated and the big bang just happened because and do trust science with their evidence dating back longer , mucherr longer than 2012 years?.........and will u "denialers" ever see the light ....maybe when ur getting sucked up the tunnel after u pass.....and is that tunnel a worm hole into another universe, just asking!..........u

    April 12, 2012 at 11:02 am |
    • WASP

      @steviep: shroud of turin was tested 3 seperate times. once by McCrone's his theory is that "a male model was daubed with paint and wrapped in the sheet to create the shadowy figure of Jesus." The model was covered in red ochre, "a pigment found in earth and widely used in Italy during the Middle Ages, and pressed his forehead, cheekbones and other parts of his head and body on to the linen to create the image that exists today. Vermilion paint, made from mercuric sulphide, was then splashed onto the image's wrists, feet and body to represent blood."

      McCrone analyzed the shroud and found traces of chemicals that were used in "two common artist's pigments of the 14th century, red ochre and vermilion, with a collagen (gelatin) tempera binder" (McCrone 1998). He makes his complete case that the shroud is a medieval painting in Judgment Day for the Shroud of Turin (March 1999). For his work, McCrone was awarded the American Chemical Society's Award in Analytical Chemistry in 2000."

      as far as the bible being used a proof, it is the articule in question. it like saying hmmmm you don't believe in the power of the necronomicon but i do so i'm going to use it's passages to prove it is real. if something is being questioned as to being real, you can't use circular reasoning to state that it is real.
      the depictions of a anglo-saxon jesus aren't true to middle-eastern born native. that is what modern paintings and depictions of jesus on the cross are wrong.

      "can science prove that which is unseen beyond our seeing capacity?" can you see bacteria? how about the various light spectrums? can you see oxygen? well science has made it possible to see all these things, and more. we can see with computers what happens when you take two protons speed them to near light speed then crash then into each other. so yes science has made it possible to see what can't be seen by our eyes.

      as far as hell, it's where all sinners and those that have done god wrong go, correct? i grew up southern baptist, i know the first book and the last book by heart......it's all my preacher yelled about. god made the angels, lucifer turned on god, god threw him out of heaven, god made hell to throw lucifer into along with all us oh so evil atheists. lmfao

      April 12, 2012 at 11:55 am |
  15. Joshua

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
    that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    April 12, 2012 at 10:41 am |
    • just sayin REAL ONE

      Joshua,

      Thats nice that you quote an opinion of a man that has no relevence in reality

      April 12, 2012 at 11:14 am |
    • just sayin

      Fraud alert. The real just sayin is not in need of adding the real one to be identified. Demand the 100% pure version of a God loving just sayin. I am just sayin and I endorse this message. God bless

      April 12, 2012 at 11:18 am |
    • just sayin REAL ONE

      Sorry but I own the above name, you do not. You are but a ghost.

      April 12, 2012 at 11:20 am |
    • just sayin

      No you are wrong bubba there are about 3 people who own this name now.

      April 12, 2012 at 11:43 am |
    • just sayin

      As there is one God and many idols or false gods, there is but one 100 % pure just sayin and as noted two frauds. Ask for the God honoring just sayin at every opportunity. I am just sayin and I endorse this message. God bless

      April 12, 2012 at 11:49 am |
    • jim86

      How did he give his son? Did God not know he would be resurrected and come back in a few days? When my kid goes to play at the neighbor for the day is that considered giving him as well?

      April 12, 2012 at 2:13 pm |
    • Nonimus

      "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,"
      Just a thought, but technically God wouldn't be able to have a "son," would he? God is a supernatural being of spirit, so anything He creates would be a creation not a "son" in any sense.

      Must be the poetry of the Bible everyone talks about.

      April 12, 2012 at 2:40 pm |
    • sam stone

      Who would want to spend eternity with the god of the bible?

      April 12, 2012 at 3:09 pm |
    • Robert Missoni

      Eternity with God of the Bible or eternity with satan.

      It is all about choices!

      April 12, 2012 at 3:26 pm |
    • Magic

      Robert Missoni,
      "Eternity with God of the Bible or eternity with satan."

      There is not a single shred of verified evidence that either of those fantasy beings exists.

      April 12, 2012 at 3:31 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      It would depend on what you call evidence. Would you accept the testimonies of witnesses as evidence?

      April 12, 2012 at 3:34 pm |
    • Magic

      Robert Brown,
      "Would you accept the testimonies of witnesses as evidence?"

      Not as sole, otherwise uncorroborated, evidence, no.

      April 12, 2012 at 3:43 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Would you accept the testimonies of witnesses as evidence?"

      You can't believe what was written so long as true fact. Look at our own stories of George Washington much of the common stories we know are myth. He never cut down a cherry tree! Look at how the myths of Santa evolved.

      April 12, 2012 at 3:46 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      So, if you had 12 reliable individuals who stated the same facts, you would still require physical evidence.

      April 12, 2012 at 3:51 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "So, if you had 12 reliable individuals who stated the same facts, you would still require physical evidence."

      They didn't state the same facts and that is proven by the book of John being bogus. Now also factor in these so called witnesses wrote about 30 – 50 years after Jesus was dead.

      April 12, 2012 at 3:53 pm |
    • Magic

      Robert Brown,
      "if you had 12 reliable individuals who stated the same facts,"

      1. Nope
      2. Besides that, you do not have 12 reliable individuals, if you are referring to the Apostles. Their ident'ities and their eventual fates are largely unknown and the legends which abound regarding them are unverified.

      April 12, 2012 at 3:56 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      If not 12, then is there an acceptable number? 100, 1000, 1,000,000?

      April 12, 2012 at 4:00 pm |
    • just sayin

      God r a p e d Mary when you look at it or Mary was a w h o re.

      April 12, 2012 at 4:15 pm |
    • Magic

      Robert Brown,

      Without corroborating evidence, eyewitness testimonies are very weak. Do you know how many thousands, millions, billions of eyewitness would have sworn that the Sun orbits the Earth?

      If 100 people swore that they saw Lee Harvey Oswald shoot President Kennedy from the window of the School Book Depository, without any other evidence their words are not reliable. It could have been a look-alike, a disguised person, or even a twin who they saw. Verification from perhaps his unique fingerprints on the gun, and the bullets recovered matching that gun... now, we're starting to get somewhere.

      If 100 people swore that they saw Lee Harvey Oswald flare an evil light ray out of his eyes that magically felled President Kennedy - what would you think?

      April 12, 2012 at 4:17 pm |
    • just sayin

      Robert Brown

      So, if you had 12 reliable individuals who stated the same facts, you would still require physical evidence.

      >
      Issue 1: reliable....how so????
      Issue 2: What facts? Is there independent 3rd parties to collaborate the alleged facts?
      Issue3: More physical evidence? You havent provided any for starters

      April 12, 2012 at 4:18 pm |
    • just sayin

      The fraud is back ! I win ! God bless

      April 12, 2012 at 4:19 pm |
    • just sayin

      The origins of Christianity have about as much credibility as the origins of fairies and elves. Believers of each are required to have faith out of the absence of credible evidence. That is why they call it "faith".

      April 12, 2012 at 4:21 pm |
    • just sayin

      It does not take long until the fraud atheist shows the type of rat filth it really is. Let its own mother be accursed.

      April 12, 2012 at 4:21 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Ok, the witnesses are out. Do you know Jesus does not exist, or just don't believe in him?

      April 12, 2012 at 4:22 pm |
    • just sayin

      I win everytime I post and you chase me. You are blinded by your own insecurity. lol

      April 12, 2012 at 4:27 pm |
    • Magic

      Robert Brown,

      A Hebrew preacher by that name may have existed a couple of thousand years ago. I have no evidence of the existence of a supernatural continuation of his life today.

      April 12, 2012 at 4:33 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Do you believe in God?

      April 12, 2012 at 5:23 pm |
    • Magic

      Robert Brown,

      I surely don't believe in any god which humans have conjured up thus far.

      April 12, 2012 at 5:31 pm |
    • Magic

      p.s. I will admit that there a few on this (incomplete) list which I have not thoroughly investigated :), but the more popular ones I have given a fairly even going-over.

      Agdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alerich, Allah, Amaterasu, An , Anasi, Anat, Andvari, Ansshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis, Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, Balder, Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brigit, Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun, Chemosh, Cheng Huang, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina, Davlin, Dawn, Demeter, Diana, Di Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Eos, Epona, Ereskigal, Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Gaia, Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Geong Si, Guanyin, Hades, Hathor, Hecate, Helios, Heng-O, Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Hestia, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei, Huitzilopochtli, Hsi-Wang-My, Hygeia, Inanna, Into, Iris, Ishtar, Isis, Ixtab, Izanaki, Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jupiter, Juturna, Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya, Khepri, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna, Kuan-Yin, Kukulcan, Lakshmi, Leto, Liza, Loki, Lugh, Luna, Magna Mater, Maia, Marduk, Mars, Mazu, Medb, Mercury, Mimir, Min, Minerva, Mithras, Morrigan, Mot, Mummu, Muses, Nammu, Nanna, Nanse, Neith, Nemesis, Nephthys, Neptune, Nerhal, Ninazu, Ninhurzah, Nintu, Ninurta, Njord, Nugua, Nut, Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir, Osiris, Ostara, Pan, Parvati, Phaethon, Phoebe, Phoebus Apollo, Pilumnus, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Rama, Re, Rhea, Sabazius, Sarasvati, Selene, Shiva, Seshat, Set, Shamash, Shapsu, Shen Yi, Shiva, Shu, Si-Wang-Mu, Sin, Sirona, Sol, Surya, Susanoh, Tawaret, Tefnut, Tezcatlipoca, Thanatos, Thor, Thoth, Tiamat, Tianhou, Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-Bime, Tyche, Tyr, Utu, Uzume, Bevus, Vesta, Vishnu, Volturus, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi-Wang-Mu, Xochipilli, Xochiquestzal, Yam, Yarikh, Yhwh, Ymir, Yu-Huang, Yum Kimil, Zeus.

      April 12, 2012 at 5:36 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Would you be interested in finding God, or have you determined there is no such thing?

      April 12, 2012 at 5:37 pm |
    • Magic

      Robert,

      I was a believer (and a fairly devout one) for many, many years. I see (nor feel, nor think) that there is any being up/out/over/around/under there which relates to us and to our existence in any kind of personal manner. There is a *possibility* that there is a natural "first cause" of some type, but that it is a sentient being, with human-like emotions and desires and purposeful actions - no, I do not believe that.

      April 12, 2012 at 6:08 pm |
  16. Ugh

    This article lost me when it cited Ehrman as a credible source.

    April 12, 2012 at 10:40 am |
    • Jim

      April 12, 2012 at 10:44 am |
    • momoya

      I agree that Craig is one of the "all-stars" for the christian perspective, but he's just not that good–except by comparison to his believing peers..

      April 12, 2012 at 11:11 am |
    • Cq

      momoya
      The Christian "side", especially the inst.itution of training ministers, has a tradition and emphasis on oration with the purpose of convincing people of their arguments whereas the scientific community is content to let the evidence speak for itself. That's why scientists tend not to come off as well in debate. You don't need to be convinced in the science if it is sound. Apologetics, however, is the art of making the unsound appear reasonable through clever us of words.

      April 12, 2012 at 12:04 pm |
    • just sayin

      Ugh

      This article lost me when it cited Ehrman as a credible source.

      >
      It lost me at the mention of Jesus. Why would I want to read about my landscaper?????

      April 12, 2012 at 4:28 pm |
  17. steviep

    the shroud was not proven false it was woven in the patterns used at that time,and so much more like the pollen from jerusalem,and even more but how was it proven false? if ur talkin about the carbon dating then i have to tell u that they scientist who did the sampling admitted to taking the samole from the patches!.....and how could european paintins play into this ...they cant but it does show at those times of the paintings that the nails were driving into the hands but the sroud on the other hand has them going threw the wrist just like the romans did their cruccifixtions.

    April 12, 2012 at 10:21 am |
    • steviep

      andi dont believe or should i say think that a hell fromaloving god could b possible..i dont even know the meaning of life half the time.....do u?

      April 12, 2012 at 10:25 am |
    • steviep

      and u cant just throw out scripueres as evidence,well if u must but thats like getting rid of oj simpsons glove at scene of crime an,or the 911 calls that nicole made,,,,ur dismissing key evidence,,,arent u?

      April 12, 2012 at 10:32 am |
    • steviep

      i gots to go to sleep sorrry, just wqanted to let u know im noty hiding in a corner...............and maybe heaven and hell are states of conciousness afterv death, who knows but if u dismiss the bible or god then so be it, thanks for sharing and i hope that we both get something out of this,,,,yeah like more questions...like y did the dinosaurs roam the earth first? and if u only have science to prove god then what if science cant even prove god or isnt the way to prove god?....can science prove that wwhich is unseen beyond our seeing capacity ? and do not many scientist believe in god? and would scientist know ggod if it or he was already here?....is god found in quantum pohysics? is einsteins"gods equation"...a clue into how god or the universal spirit works?.........is dna a part of the language of higher power? if not,then from evolution,well how and why and if we are from stardust then is that where we originated and the big bang just happened because and do trust science with their evidence dating back longer , mucherr longer than 2012 years?.........and will u "denialers" ever see the light ....maybe when ur getting sucked up the tunnel after u pass.....and is that tunnel a worm hole into another universe, just asking!..........u dont have to answer...lol....godnight

      April 12, 2012 at 10:59 am |
  18. Peteyroo

    Instead of calling us by the pejorative "Atheist," let's be called non-believers.

    April 12, 2012 at 5:38 am |
    • Cq

      Yeah, the Romans use to call Christians "atheists" too, because they wouldn't believe in their gods. Unless you believe in all gods everyone is an atheist to some degree.

      April 12, 2012 at 9:46 am |
    • steviep

      how about we call u guys "the denials".....yeah that works! your not stupid or idiots or anything like that. just in denial....i mean come on guys ,i was raised catholic and now dont go to church much at all!....but not to believe in a universal spirit or god of some sort seems idk...different because cultures have worshipped something or someone throughout time...its built into our genes, dna...so maybe denial or not enough facts for yourcritical thinking but you have to admit theres so many things pointing to a god throughout nature and our universe. our very existance seems set up! i too have questioned the bible and god throughout my life ,thats normal....i learned though the bible seems a little wierd but humans arent perfect in their translations and some books werent even included cause man said no. so the mysteries may always be there.....i believe its not about physical proof but physical experience one has concerning god! how does a mother feel her child is in danger and finds out moments later they were seriously injured?we are all connected to a source ,i cant deny that.......but the shroud of turin would be possibly the best evidence of jesus for any phsicxal evidence and NDE'S proof of an afterlife...and i know the jury is still out with some people, but to believe can not really hurt you so for me why not .....and y couldnt evolution be the way of creation....its not like we know of any ways to create a universe or possile multiple universes...i dont think we can comprehend a god with our brain power,but we can just know by bexperiences and feelings of knowing like driving down the road at night and something tells u to slow down or pull over that something doesnt seem right and then u find out that the bridge was out!....we are all miracles and life and death are just part of this crazy ride....sorry to offend anyone also, we all can be too defensive in our personal beliefs....god luck on ur journeys .

      April 12, 2012 at 9:52 am |
    • WASP

      @steviep: shoud of turin has been proven not to be the cloth wrapped around jesus. second we still have no clue what the man looked like, but seeing he was from a middle-eastern country i doubt he had european features that all the crosses and pictures of today depict. can't offend someone that doesn't buy into your dogma, but we are good at hurting your feelings. proof look at responces from christians when backed into a corner. without using scripture prove god, or jesus. you can't do it because they only exist in that book and the scrolls that lead to that book. your own belief system is fragmented over who is "the way" and whom is going to hell. atheists only have science and our acceptance of this one life to make things better. no glorious after life that allows us to waste our time on earth.

      April 12, 2012 at 10:10 am |
    • Cq

      steviep
      "..and y couldnt evolution be the way of creation..."
      Evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life on this planet, that's abiogenesis. Regardless, neither requires a god to make it work as far as we know.

      April 12, 2012 at 11:26 pm |
  19. David Lawrence

    As far as I know, there exists no hard historical evidence to confirm the existence of Jesus. That changes nothing, for believers and nonbelievers alike. The question remains precisely what it has always been: a matter of faith.

    I see no reason for this discussion to be upsetting to those on either side of the question.

    April 12, 2012 at 4:25 am |
    • Cq

      Then you can just as easily have faith in Zeus, Thor, Baal, Hera, or any of the thousands of other gods that also don't have any evidence going for them, right?

      April 12, 2012 at 8:21 am |
    • rallycry

      for all we know, 200 years from now there will be no evidence that you existed.

      April 12, 2012 at 4:32 pm |
    • Cq

      rallycry
      Considering how religions evolve to match the times, how much do you want to bet that fundamentalists won't be around in 200 years? Fundamentalism is just a shade over 100 years old now, and it's already showing signs of waning. Thank goodness! :-)

      April 12, 2012 at 11:31 pm |
  20. mickey1313

    Contrary to the lies of most thiests, absense of evidence is evidence of absence.

    April 12, 2012 at 12:49 am |
    • Peteyroo

      theists

      April 12, 2012 at 5:36 am |
    • WASP

      @mickey: i love that circular logic of theirs. any person knows if a parent is absent from your life, their absence is proof they aren't there.

      April 12, 2012 at 6:19 am |
    • JM

      You must be right. Before they discovered the world wasn't flat, it must have been flat. Before they discovered DNA, DNA must not have existed. Because, of course, we know all there is to know...now...and what we don't know, doesn't exist.

      April 12, 2012 at 1:01 pm |
    • WASP

      @jm: sure DNA always existed; the world was always spherical. etc etc etc.......when you can produce "god" then we can talk. DNA and the planet weren't ever absent; they just weren't verified. god can't be verified through testing and only exists in scripture.

      April 12, 2012 at 2:10 pm |
    • Really the Real Just Saying

      @CQ I've seen lightning so I know Thor is real.

      April 12, 2012 at 2:19 pm |
    • Cq

      Really the Real Just Saying
      Could be Zeus, Lei Gong, Set, or maybe any of 20 or so other lightening gods, but I'm an X-Man fan, so I'm hoping for Storm.

      April 12, 2012 at 11:21 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke and Eric Marrapodi with daily contributions from CNN's worldwide newsgathering team.