By Dan Merica, CNN
Washington (CNN) – Kevin Kloosterman, a former Mormon bishop, said he “came out” last year – just not in the way that many people associate with coming out.
“I came out and basically made a personal apology to (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) folks for really not understanding their issues, not really taking the time to understand their lives and really not doing my homework,” Kloosterman said in an interview with CNN.
Though not speaking on behalf of the church, the then-bishop stood in front of a crowd of gay and straight Mormons at a November conference on gay and lesbian issues in Salt Lake City, Utah, where the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is headquartered.
Donning a suit and tie, Kloosterman was visibly shaken, struggling to find the right words as tears welled up in his eyes.
“I’m sorry – deeply, deeply sorry,” Kloosterman told the group in a speech that was captured on video. “The only thing I can say to those of you who have been so patient, and have gone through so much, is for you to watch and look for any small changes with your loved ones, with your wards (Mormon congregations), with your leaders. And encourage them in this repentance process.”
Kloosterman’s apology was just one example of what many Mormons and church watchers see as a recent shift in the Mormon community’s posture toward gays and lesbians, including by the official church itself.
Though the church’s doctrine condemning homosexuality has not changed, and the church remains opposed to same-sex marriage, many say the church is subtly but unmistakably growing friendlier toward the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community, including voicing support for some gay rights.
CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories
Students at the church-owned Brigham Young University recently posted an “It Gets Better” video about the gay and lesbian community there, while a gay Mormon in San Francisco was selected last year for a church leadership position.
A new conference series on gay and lesbian Mormons – the same one Kloosterman addressed last year – is seeing an uptick in popularity.
Church spokesman Michael Purdy would not comment on whether church members are changing their stance toward gay and lesbian issues but said in an e-mail message: “In the Church, we strive to follow Jesus Christ who showed immense love and compassion towards all of God’s children.”
Purdy wrote, “If members are becoming more loving and Christ-like toward others then this can only be a positive development.”
‘It is definitely getting better’
The Brigham Young students who taped the pro-gay video this month were contributing to a popular video series meant to inspire hope in young people who are struggling to come to terms with their sexuality identity.
The video featured students telling stories of being gay at Brigham Young, sharing tales of heartache, loss and even suicide.
“It kind of is a very different world to be gay and Mormon because it feels like neither community accepts you completely,” said Bridey Jensen, a fifth-year senior and acting president of Understanding Same Gender Attraction, the group that posted the video.
Explain it to me: What’s Mormonism?
“We put out the message for youth that are going through this, and we want them to know that we were them a few years ago, and it gets better and there is a place for you,” she said.
Though chastity is a requirement at Brigham Young, gay and lesbian students say they are under more scrutiny. The school’s honor code says that “homosexual behavior is inappropriate and violates” the code.
But Jensen said reaction to the video, which has been viewed almost 400,000 times on YouTube, has been “overwhelmingly positive.”
Carri Jenkins, an assistant to Brigham Young's president, told CNN that the production of the video is not a violation of the honor code and that the students will not be punished.
The honor code, Jenkins said, is “based on conduct, not on feeling and if same-gender attraction is only stated, that is not an honor code issue.”
Jensen said that while gay and lesbian Mormons face a tough road, she sees a shift toward greater acceptance. It is definitely getting better within the church, she said. “They are not so quick to judge. They understand that they don’t understand everything. I am glad I can be a little part of it.”
Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter
Some scholars of Mormonism, such as Columbia University’s Richard Bushman, said they see the very existence of such a gay rights group at Brigham Young as a step toward greater acceptance of gays and lesbians.
“The last 10 years have been a huge sea change in terms of willingness to accept homosexuals,” Bushman said. “Gay kids are still going to have a tough time in the church, but this level of acceptance and acknowledgment – that is really that last decade I would say.”
Most gay Mormons point to 2008’s push for Proposition 8 in California, which banned same-sex marriage in the state but has faced legal challenge in the courts, as a low point in the relationship between the church and gay and lesbian community.
Mormons make up 2% of California’s population, but they contributed half of the $40 million war chest used to defend Proposition 8, according to a Time magazine report.
The church’s Proposition 8 activism angered many gay rights groups around the country, with some labeling the church “bigoted,” “homophobic” and “anti-gay.”
But church officials pushed back against the perception that the Proposition 8 backlash has provoked a Mormon softening on gay and lesbian issues.
“Many positive relationships have come from the Church’s experience in supporting traditional marriage in California,” Purdy, the church spokesman, said in an e-mail exchange with CNN.
Purdy draws a distinction between being against same-sex marriage and against equality for gays and lesbians.
He reiterated that the church was “strongly on the record as supporting traditional marriage,” but he said its stance should never be used as justification for violence or unkindness.
“The Church’s doctrine has not changed but we certainly believe you can be Christ-like, loving and civil, while advocating a strongly held moral position such as supporting traditional marriage,” Purdy wrote in an e-mail message.
“We do not believe that strong support of traditional marriage is anti-gay,” he wrote. “We love and cherish our brothers and sisters who experience same gender attraction. They are children of God.”
Church doctrine says that sex outside marriage is a sin and can lead to excommunication. Since gay people cannot be married in the church, any sex for them would be premarital and, therefore, sinful.
“The distinction between feelings or inclinations on the one hand, and behavior on the other hand, is very clear,” the church’s website says. “It’s no sin to have inclinations that if yielded to would produce behavior that would be a transgression. The sin is in yielding to temptation. Temptation is not unique. Even the Savior was tempted.”
Openly gay and a church leader
Mitch Mayne seems to relish his role as a lightning rod.
Mayne, an openly gay Mormon who blogs about homosexuality and the church, received the calling – a term Mormons use for being invited into a church position – in August.
Mayne is now executive secretary in a San Francisco ward of the church.
“I view myself as gay and being completely whole as being gay,” Mayne said.
Many observers of Mormonism say Mayne’s calling marked a unique moment in church history. Purdy said that Mayne’s appointment is “not unique,” but it’s hard to find precedent for an outspokenly gay executive secretary.
Mayne said he sees his job as building bridges with the gay community in San Francisco and showing them “there are pockets in the Mormon Church where you can be yourself.”
The biggest obstacle toward building those bridges is the threat of excommunication, said Mayne, who told CNN that in some wards just being gay can lead to expulsion from the church.
According to church doctrine, a formal disciplinary council can be called at the request of church leader.
While the leaders of the church mandate councils called for murder, incest or apostasy, it has a long list of reasons to call a disciplinary council.
According to the church’s website, the list of reasons includes “abortion, transsexual operation, attempted murder, rape, forcible sexual abuse, intentionally inflicting serious physical injuries on others, adultery, fornication, homosexual relations. …”
Some wards are observing that guidance while others aren’t, Mayne said.
“Here in the Bay Area ... we are no longer seeking out LGBT members of the church and excommunicating them,” Mayne said. “Our role is to bring people closer to the Savior, so if we are routinely excommunicating people, then we are really not doing our job.”
Mayne said he believes the challenge is to convince church leaders that they don’t ever have to excommunicate gay members.
And he said the Proposition 8 campaign was the “least Christ-like thing we have ever done as a church.”
“Not only did we alienate gays and lesbians, but we alienated their parents, their friends, those who support them – the ripple effect went way beyond the gay community, and I don’t think we were prepared for such a negative fallout,” Mayne said. “I think the church deserved the black eye they received.”
He added, “As a result of that really horrible time, I think we are entering a really good time to be a gay Mormon. It is getting better.”
‘Mormonism doesn’t simply wash off’
When the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints speaks, the City Council of Salt Lake City listens. At least the council seemed to in 2009 when it voted on an ordinance to make it illegal to discriminate against gay and transgendered residents in housing and employment.
"The church supports these ordinances because they are fair and reasonable and do not do violence to the institution of marriage,” church spokesman Michael Otterson told the council.
Shortly after the church’s expression, the City Council approved the measure unanimously.
Many gay rights activists said they saw the move as an olive branch after the Proposition 8 debate.
“The tone and the culture is evolving, and the way the LGBT people are being treated is changing. I don’t think the church’s policy has caught up to that change in culture,” said Ross Murray, director of religion, faith and values at the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation. “The Mormon church hasn’t gotten nearly as politically involved as they had since 2009.”
Though Murray sees the church lobbying for anti-discrimination laws as a positive step, he said the church’s shift is more about style than substance.
“It is going to take a lot of intentional effort to actually prove they are different,” Murray said. “That burden, because of the really public nature of their support of Prop 8, falls harder on the Mormon church than others.”
Joanna Brooks, a popular Mormon blogger and president of Mormon Stories, a nonprofit group that facilitates conversations on Mormon issues, echoes Murray’s sentiments.
She said she sees the church’s stance as challenging gay Mormons to choose between the religion they most likely grew up with and their desire for romantic companionship.
“Mormonism doesn’t simply wash off,” she said, adding that the church can’t make it that “either you are gay or you are Mormon, or either you support gay rights or you support the church.”
H0m0's are a cancer on our society. The United States can look forward to God's judgement because we've tolerated this sinful lifestyle as mainstream(among many other things).
Isa 5:18 ¶ Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope:
Like a gay pride parade or the gay pride flag flying over a military base in Afghanistan-it's all in-your-face agianst God's righteousness and holiness. We can expect trouble for allowing this crap to happen.
Your god applies to you and only you. None of the rest of us will suffer other than listening to your bigotry,.
So why hasn't God cancelled the Gay Pride events?
My guess is that God is gay.
"H0m0's are a cancer on our society."
Ironic, you may acquire cancer in your lifetime. What if your surgeon is gay?
"H0m0's are a cancer on our society. "
Prejudice, hate and bigotry like yours is what is a cancer on our society.
"H0m0's are a cancer on our society."
No, bigots are.
One article I read showed 57 earthquakes of 5.0 magnitude or greater in one week. I went to the USGS website and counted 44 myself. Yeah, that's normal-happens every week like that-NOT! You people are about to learn the hard way what God's judgement against unrighteousness is all about. Enjoy.
Talk about a negation of free will.
Yea do whatever you want, but if you don't do what I want you to then I'll kill you. Your god is a complete ass.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
That will include your smart ass, HI guest.
Typical Keith. Can't handle the fact that according to his logic, free will is but an illusion. Keith the god you profess is an ass. If I die and your particular god is real I will gladly tell him that to his face, because that is not a loving being you define.
awful lot of gall purporting to speak for god, keith.
sam stone, If you mean being able to read and comprehend the Scriptures as "gall", so be it. There are numerous examples of God's people wandering, straying, and rebelling against God. God loves his people enough to do whatever it takes bring them back into the fold. We are the problem here, not God. He's merciful to give us many chances to seek Him out in repentance.
The Church in America and the United States as a whole could use a healthy dose of repentance right about now. Without it, you can count on another 911, 2008 stock market crash, natural disasters, etc.
I think it was Billy Graham who once said, "If God doesn't judge America, then He owes Sodom and Gh0m0rra an apology".
They're not "a cancer on our society." That's absolutely intolerant and ridiculous. Yeah, I'm not crazy about calling a gay civil union a marriage, since a marriage to me, as a Catholic, is between a man and a woman. And I do see the concerns Mormons and Christians have wrt gay marriage leading to gay-oriented curricula in schools (it's going to happen here in CA). But, really, I think if we all sit down and take a deep breath, a reasonable, tolerant, accomodation can be found. In other words, I really don't think having secular gay marriage is going to destroy society. I also think gays and lesbians should definitely have the same rights married couples do (the Mormon Church was a proponent for many rights for gay couples prior and after prop 8) and are just as good and loving parents as straight couples.
Oh all the fools and their foolery ways for many are but foolishness ways in that they do foolish things be it wordly or even physically they are of foolings bemoanaments! Idolatries are now more a commonality then in long ago times! Keep Holy the Holiness Way! Donv't give in to one fvcking inch to social blasphemers in rancidness's physical consorts in constructivisms allegories of hindsight's asses! Let Go! Let God alone and for Christ's sakes get the fvck away from the social blindings of pseudo-corrective ailments meant to give false cohesions' for lamentations' fodder!
ONLY FOR THE NEWCOMERS:
"Abrahamics" believe that their god created all of us and of course that includes the g-ay members of the human race. Also, those who have studied ho-mo-se-xuality have determined that there is no choice involved therefore ga-ys are ga-y because god made them that way.
o The Royal College of Psy-chiatrists stated in 2007:
“ Despite almost a century of psy-choanalytic and psy-chological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heteros-exual or hom-ose-xual orientation. It would appear that s-exual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of ge-netic factors and the early ut-erine environment. Se-xual orientation is therefore not a choice. "
"Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab state in the abstract of their 2010 study, "The fe-tal brain develops during the intraut-erine period in the male direction through a direct action of tes-tosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hor-mone surge. In this way, our gender identi-ty (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and s-exual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender ident–ity or s-exual orientation."[8
See also the Philadelphia Inquirer review “Gay Gene, Deconstructed”, 12/12/2011. Said review addresses the following “How do genes associated with ho-mose-xuality avoid being weeded out by Darwinian evolution?”
Of course, those gays who belong to Abrahamic religions abide by the rules of no adu-ltery or for-nication allowed.
And because of basic biology differences said monogamous ventures should always be called same-se-x unions not same-se-x marriages.
Do you want to lose some weight? Go godless.
No thanks, nobody wants to be a wild-eyed lunatic like the Bachmann's.
And judging from all those lame ".....and I'm a Mormon" commercials always clogging up your YouTube recommendations, I'd say a good majority of THEIR men are gay to begin with!
Socially constructed Perverts perverse the perversions of perversionisms' perversionistics!
Interesting that this faith changes their docterine based on what the society accepts, they once endorsed polygamy and in fact said it was one of the founding principles of the faith. It became illegal and the church was threatned by uncle sam so the "profit" changed what he said the lord wanted.
Prior to the civil rights movement, blacks could not hold the priesthood, nor serve in the hierarchy of the church...along comes MLK and the good lord once again saw the light.
BTW I was raised Mormon before all you LDS sheep in your Jesus jumpers condem me, I did 4 years of seminary and had almost drunk the cool aid too at one point. Thank God for adulthood and the option of free thinking.
Jared. Agree with everything you say...except it wasn't MLK that changed the good Lord's mind about African Americans. The NCAA threatened BYU football with a post-season bowl ban because they were part of a racist organization. So it wasn't MLK, it was the prospect of losing big-time cash. Oh, and before anyone jumps on me, I went to BYU and on a mission.
Not to discredit your '4 years of seminary' but that hardly makes you an expert. Let me offer a correction. The church doctrine has not changed because of trends nor will it. Polygamy was stopped...it was never said to be evil. That would be a change in doctrine. If the church ever says that gay marriage is 'good' then you can accuse them of changing their doctrine. Don't hold your breath though. Mormons holding out for that moment don't understand LDS doctrine. However, treating people fairly etc... will always be a part of what the church practices so don't be surprised when the church supports protecting rights.
Dave is correct. Mormons have only disallowed plural marriage on the planet Earth. They can still be sealed to multiple wives in heaven.
As to your 'LDS sheep' insult and your 'free thinking' praise hefted onto yourself... Unless you are the source of heretofore never heard of ideas you are also a sheep in that you follow the opinions of those you choose to agree with. Free thinking just means you are deciding who you follow. If you don't follow God it doesn't really matter in the end who/what you chose to follow.
So, to be a free thinker, you have to restrict your thought to what god approves and wants of you.. based on an iron age sheep herders handbook and a polygomous prv's translation of alien language.. That makes total sense dode.. you the dawg!
"Christ died for your sins and suffered a horrible death for you, furthermore he resurrected for you, in order to set you free"
God does not regard homosexuality as a sin any more than heterosexuality. Sin is lack of respect for God; it is a lack of love or respect for other persons. Whether gay or straight, therefore, one may sin against God or others. But God forgives us when we sin and strengthens us in resisting sin. We are led by God's forgiving love to become more respectful and loving toward God and towards others, even those we don't "like".
The Scriptures are very important because they teach us God's love for all, gay or straight. But the Scriptures are old, thousands of years old, written even before the word "homosexual" existed. Same sex acts involving the genitals – we call these "homogenital" – seem in Scripture to be thought of as a result of idol worship. See, for example, Romans 1:18-27. Nor do the Scriptures seem to understand what we mean today by "sexual orientation". Sexual acts which are injurious, disrespectful, or unloving toward the other person are wrong. So I believe that the Scriptures approve of homosexuality and even homogenital acts that are kind, generous, loving, and respectful of the other person, just as in the case of heterosexuality or heterogenital acts.
What a fvcking inspirational downplay! To hell with Godly abominations! God forbid such illuminations of ilk and make them regurgitate and vomit such politically orientated social constructs hell-bent to discombobulate the weaker minds' intellects and lowly ever lonely heart-fallen idiocy's lunacies who themself are too mystified by religions of mystifications' aparted "geoclismatic" impotencies! Let Go! Let God Alone for Christ's sakes!
Cherish ye parents your children and their trying ways! Lean not against the whipping posts your child's strayed ways! Keep your witts as your children do grow theirs!
unless the kid is disobedient.. then kill the sob..
I have read the Bible. I believe in God. That doesn't mean I don't recognize that it is a book written by men every bit as human as we are, not to mention that the book they wrote was then translated no fewer than a couple dozen times, and then again even since if you don't read King James version. There are several different translations still in print today just in the English language alone. It is a book. Neither God or Jesus wrote it. Sorry if I don't believe every word of it as a legitimate basis for living my life in the year 2012.
However, I do like the part about how you should treat all people with respect because we are all God's children. I think that part was pretty clear.
Also – if you have children, and they dishonor or disobey you, do you stone them to death? If so, I trust you are typing this from prison. STOP MAKING PEOPLE THINK ALL CHRISTIANS HAVE NO BRAIN AND ARE HYPOCRITES.
oh, and also, you spelled your name wrong.
lynne,,,,,,,,,,,, ,.wrote, "Also – if you have children, and they dishonor or disobey you, do you stone them to death?"
Let the parent who has not sinned cast therefore the first stone!
Children need to be "scolded" and made reprimanding that which they did of realistic wrongness!
"Let the parent who has not sinned cast therefore the first stone!"
LOL! Everyone knows the story about Jesus and the woman about to be stoned by the mob. This account is only found in John 7:53-8:12. The mob asked Jesus whether they should stone the woman (the punishment required by the Old Testament) or show her mercy. Jesus doesn’t fall for this trap. Jesus allegedly states, let the one who is without sin among you be the first to cast a stone at her. The crowd dissipates out of shame. That story was not originally in the Gospel of John or in any of the Gospels. It was added by later scribes. The story is not found in the oldest and best manuscripts of the Gospel of John. Nor does its writing style comport with the rest of John. Most serious textual critics state that this story should not be considered part of the Bible.
it is the crazy stuff where the reflection of god is most seen in.. Strip out the crazy stuff and book simply reads as a dime paperback self-help book.. How would the god element even come in christianity without the crazy stuff in bible?
"I have read the Bible. I believe in God."
YOU ARE DELUSIONAL
Many "humanists" do today want only to love and be loved! Hate has become a no no within this world! I hate many issues and I hate but a few people I associate with! Hate and being hated is a good thing if understood correctly and with no malice! You can Hate me for bringing to light this no no word of emotionalisms! I hate the gays who did abuse me in my earlier years when I was but a lad and knew little about social constructs and people of immoralisms' decrees! I hate the drug pushers and especially hate these damned filtered cigars I now smoke! I hate my weakness of the flesh! Hate Hate Hate! There! I said it! I feel much better now!
April 17, 2012 at 11:19 pm
Reality,,,,, Do you in all honesty realy think I could give a hoot about what the "Royal College of Psychiatrists" do issue in and ladle out? They are on the take! And they push psychotropic drugs upon the people, these unknowledgable humanists and for what? Money! Pure and simple,,,,, Money! I could care a rat's ass what people get themself into! My Life is all I truly do care about! Except for my brother's Life and his kids and grandkids! I do truly not care what social construct you aspire toward! My God and all God's Sons and Daughters are my spiritual manifestations of my Fiath! No one else need apply!
April 17, 2012 at 11:33 pm
1Cr 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.
My building called a body is soon reaching a time for it being demolished. My God, God's Sons and Daughters and on down their lineages do await my death's "discompensing"! One teeny weenie pebble of God's choosing will be afforded me to be My New Home within the everness of "Micronial Cosmologies' Sublimations" beckonings! Never again will my spent days upon this celestial chasm of great size be afforded me in memories of newness as will be encased me by God's Willing Way! Let Go! Let God alone in His Way! Let Go! Let God have His Day! Let Go! Let God come what May!
April 18, 2012 at 1:09 pm
"Socialistic ingrates" will ever abound upon any word of Truthfulness accordanced as revelations! The bigotted and the harlotted will ever be enmassed! A goodly counselor will ever be mocked by their counseled lots! Keep on writing and do never sway too nephariously from one's roadway! Stay then, ever focued upon Christ Jesus and God the Father of all Creation and living creationisms upon the celestialness's planets that are so capable! Let Go! Let God Alone for Christ's sakes!
April 18, 2012 at 1:40 pm
Voice of Reason,,,, did so declare,,,,,, "Gays are wired differently, they don't have a choice, they have been born into it via genetics"
Then by your ownliness perception one can argue, "The religious folks are wired differently, they don't have a choice, they have been born into it via genetics"
Such Fvcking defamations regarding one's social constructivisms weighs upon the politically serviced!
April 18, 2012 at 1:50 pm
And because of basic biology differences said monogamous ventures should always be called same-se-x unions not same-s-ex marriages.
This is a redneck group, how friendly do the rednecks appear to the gay community
if you are referring to christianity as a whole, you are spot on..
Prayer changes things..
Prayer doesn’t not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.
An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.
The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs!.!.!.
Yes you pray over your sick or injured child, My agnostic family will take our chances at the hospital!
Surely you must mean Religion is not healthy for ANYONE OR ANYTHING.
They don't believe in the one true God and the perfect savior Christ, instead they have put focus on a sinful man Joseph Smith, which is idol worship that God says is sin. When they embrace sin, it leads to eventual fall.
julie: how arrogant must one be to claim they KNOW who the "one true god" is?
Humanists or still, people will never know truly God and God's face until they are really dead to this world! The "next Life" will be lived within one's body, the building of God!
1Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.
Look around where you are sitting julie, do you see that cross with a dude stuck on it? what name do you call it other than idol worship to keep that and pray to that?
The evolution of religion continues. It must in order to stay relevant. According to Pew Research the majority of Americans now accept Evolution is true, and have watered down their creationist fairytale to be another story not to be taken literally.
It is fun to watch religious morality bend to cultural norms of a society starting to rely on reason instead of superstition. Religious morality is totally dependant on each individual's subjective interpretation of their god through scripture, prayer and other experiences. There is no objectivity.
The only path to any sort of objective morality is reason, since only the rules of logic are universal.
That is so true. I've even heard some holy rollers say crap to the effect that, "...even if the theory of evolution is true, and man/woman did evolve over time, it was by the hand and will of God..." Please. That is so childish. It's like the kid who loses and says "I let you win"
Sarah Palin is the only one who can heal and re-unify our country. But in order to do so, she must get back in her bus and resume her cross country tour. She will have to visit cities both large and small, speaking only to "real Americans", dispensing her sage advice and folksy, homespun common sense solutions. We can be a great nation again but we must follow the "Palin Path".
poor Christians, has god been mumbling again? for all the claims of some magical truth from this deity, it's always religion that changes to match more civilized practices and *never* the other way around.
"...um, yeah, so my wife and I just converted to mormonism, bishop, and I was wondering if it's OK for us to keep the 'house of pain' we have set up in the basement..."
Yeah. Great. Good job, Mormons.
Basically, we still think that gay people are horrible abominations, but we're gonna try really hard to be a little less mean about it.
And we really hope that if you're gay, you might still vote for Romney. We're kinda embarrassed that we didn't figure out that we were upsetting a lot of people: gays, lesbians, and anyone who is friends or family with them... And that's just because it's a voting year. otherwise, we really wouldn't care.
Revelation of Jesus Christ, Chapter 22:
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and wh-oremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. Unquote.
Dear gays, how about having a mutual friend, called Jesus Christ? Jesus is THE LIFE, which consumes the death. Jesus is the death of death and the hell's destruction.
I don't hate and judge gays, but offer the gospel towards them. Some brothers on this CNN blog asked me, where the Bible calls gayness a sin. There are several passages in the Bible about gayness. I have chosen only one of Romans, in order to avoid a lengthy text, which would overchallenge habitual TV watchers.
Epistle to the Romans by St. Paul (a book of the New Testament, which is a part of the Bible), Chapter 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
I myself am a Protestant, which tries to keep the genuine doctrine of the Early Church.
I don't hate and judge gays outside the church (even inside the church I don't hate them, but there they need a special treatment). It is only, if they want to join the Christian Church, they have to repent before.
Assumed my workmate, relative, neighbour, etc. would be a gay, I would treat him friendly nevertheless. Only if he would go to church, I would admonish him privatly and tell him he should repent.
Why should a gay church member repent?
Gayness is one of many sins, which is an indicator for our alienation from the Lord, the eternal God, which has made heaven and earth. Inside the Church there should stay only people, which are reconciled with God.
A church, which wants to be connected with the genuine Early Church, has to keep this.
A church, which tolerates gayness in her midst is no Christian Church, but has apostated from her Lord.
I repeat, I don't refer to gays outside the church, but inside the church.
Gays, outside the church, I shall not admonish, but treat kindly (however, if a talk about Jesus develops, I may confess the truth, that God, the Father, delivered his Son for our sins and raised him from the dead for our justification, in oder to set us free form every sin and give us a life of love and righteousness).
Everybody, who hates and judges gays, should ask himself, if he is sinless and consider that even the sinless Jesus did not judge the sinners, but offered the gospel of deliverance, in oder to set them free:
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Dear gays, Christ died for your sins and suffered a horrible death for you, furthermore he resurrected for you, in order to set you free. Can you remain gay regarding Christ's atonement for you?
Amen my brother. Amen. Well done.
rainy: you are a self-loathing closet queen.
How many times are you going to post this crap over and over again, what are you a moron.
How many times are you going to posts this crap.
"23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: "
It always amazes me that Christians like Rainer skip over this part of that scriptures...they were worshiping a pagan god using sex that was part of Roman culture, it has NOTHING to do with the Christian gay partnership as we know and understand it today. The people doing it were straight former Christians who switched over to that religion. Now you have to ask yourself is your judgment against gays using this scripture telling them their sinners still a just reason NOT to give them their civil rights. NO it is NOT! ! There are worse sinners in the Christian communities but you're not blocking their civil rights now are you! What a hypocrite!
"How many times are you going to post this" Does not this apply to you as well? If you feel the need to defend or voice your lack of faith, then those with faith will do the same.
What a crock of crap.
""How many times are you going to post this" Does not this apply to you as well? If you feel the need to defend or voice your lack of faith, then those with faith will do the same."
Ah....poor baby had to use another handle again. What a troll.
Is it sinful for a married, straight couple to engage in sod.omy and/or fella.tio?
"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural" Rom 1:26
It's up to the reader to decide what "unnatural" means I suppose, some translations make the claim this scripture is talking about girl on girl action, but others would claim that s.odomy and fella.tio would be considered "unnatural". Whats really unnatual is listening to 2000 year old s.ex advice from unmarried religious zealots.
lol that would be an uncomfortable conversation with the bishop....
Anything goes, Ephesians 13:4, Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled:
The bible is clear in that sodomy is a sin. Hence the name of Sodom and Gahmora. It does not address felatio so one should make a conscious decesion if it is propet. However the bible does say marriage bed shall be without defilement and we shall not use our body in an unnatural way. We should draw a conclusion from that.
"However the bible does say marriage bed shall be without defilement and we shall not use our body in an unnatural way."
So, eating "unnatural" food and drink is a sin? Had a soda lately? How about a visit to mcdonalds?
"The bible is clear in that sodomy is a sin."
Well, bully for the bible. Why do you think that what was appropriate for an Iron Age, Middle Eastern, agrarian society is at all valid for ours?
Self stimulation is also a sin:
1 Corinthians 7:4
4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
Sam there are many lessons and laws that modern society can benefit from as far as the bible is concerned. Thall shall not kill, shall not kill, shall not bear false witness, obey thy father and thy mother. Many more like this are refletive of many laws that contribute to an orderly society even today. Ad far as sodomy, isnt it true that when practiced it cause actual physical damage as in tearing and other painfull and longterm effects. I dont want to get explict here. Also yes I drink a coke now and then and burgers, not mcdonalds but fast food at times. But to avoid all food in these day and times that does not have some pesticides, grease, hormones ect...is all but impossible. These subjects as I have stated are not adressed as sin in of themseves in the bible. God view sin as one knowingly commiting it. I use.my conscious and have mo ill intent when doing so. I am confident in my choices that they do not deliberately break Gods law. If you do not like religion or believe in God thats your choice, why do you feel the need to belittle us who do? Also if religion is not for you then do not practice it. Then we both are living a life of freedom of choice and are happier for it.
mema: much of what you mentioned is not exclusive to christianity.
"I use.my conscious and have mo ill intent when doing"
And you feel that gays have this "ill intent"?
As far as belittling people, it seems that denial of civil rights of a group of people fits that mold.
"Ad far as sodomy, isnt it true that when practiced it cause actual physical damage as in tearing and other painfull and longterm effects?"
Don't know. I am a straight male, and the only thing I have done that could be called "sodomy" is either giving to or recieving from my (female) partner
"The bible is clear in that sodomy is a sin. Hence the name of Sodom and Gahmora."
Can't even spell Gomorrah right. LOL! Hey idiot, now be a good Christian and stop being so brainwashed go read Ezekiel. So now all those straight married people who have annal sex have to have their civil rights removed away too. LOL!
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.