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Biden's support for gay marriage matches most Catholics' views
Vice President Joe Biden went further than President Barack Obama has on supporting gay marriage.
May 7th, 2012
07:28 AM ET

Biden's support for gay marriage matches most Catholics' views

By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor

(CNN) - Apparent White House division over gay marriage - with Vice President Joe Biden saying Sunday that he is “absolutely comfortable” with the idea, going further than President Obama has on the issue – mirrors a nation that is evenly divided on the matter. Recent polls show that about half of Americans favor legalized gay marriage, while half oppose it, with support for the idea gaining significant ground over the past 15 years.

Pew’s latest polling on the issue, conducted late last year, found that 46% of Americans support favor allowing gays and lesbians to marry legally, while 44% are opposed. Support for gay civil unions is substantially higher, with a clear majority of Americans supporting such arrangements.

Feelings about gay marriage correlate to various religious traditions and levels of religiosity, with those nonaffiliated with any religion most supportive of gay marriage. It’s worth noting the dramatic recent shifts on the issue among Roman Catholics, whose ranks include Biden.

Despite the Roman Catholic Church’s rigorous opposition to gays getting the right to marry, Pew found that Catholics support gay marriage by a margin of 52% to 37%. That’s a shift from 2010, when just 46% of Catholics favored gay marriage.

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

Among white Catholics, support is even higher at 57%, while Hispanic Catholics are evenly divided.

The religious group most opposed to gay marriage is white evangelical Protestants, among whom 74% oppose it, according to Pew. Sixty-two percent of black Protestants, a key part of President Obama’s political base, also oppose gay marriage.

After Biden voiced support for gay marriage, a senior Obama campaign adviser said there was no difference on the issue between the vice president and the president, who once said he opposed gay marriage but has since said his views on the matter are “evolving.”

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"What the VP said - that all married couples should have the same legal rights - is (precisely) POTUS' position," said David Axelrod, a senior adviser to Obama's re-election campaign, in a Twitter message.

The issue has gotten attention recently as North Carolinians prepare to vote Tuesday on a ballot initiative that would amend the state constitution to ban gay marriage, reinforcing a state law banning such unions. The Rev. Billy Graham has endorsed the measure, while former President Bill Clinton has taped a robo call opposing it.

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: 2012 Election • Gay marriage • Politics

soundoff (921 Responses)
  1. APO

    The lack of intelligence is stifling. Who cares who marries who? It has no affect on anyone aside from the couple being married. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.

    May 7, 2012 at 3:41 pm |
    • God's Oldest Dreamer

      Could it be maybe that you were but an orphan and was raised up in anorphanage? Really?

      May 7, 2012 at 3:59 pm |
    • Huebert

      @dreamer

      You're talking about adoption not marriage. That is a whole different can of worms.

      May 7, 2012 at 4:11 pm |
  2. Hmmm

    If I have anger problems should I work on them? What about if I like to steal, should I work on that too? Afterall, I'm born with those gut impulses so it seems wrong for me to try and change or work on it.

    These are all hypotheticals ofcourse.

    May 7, 2012 at 3:39 pm |
    • God's Oldest Dreamer

      Pin the tail on the jackas.,,, I mean donkey! 🙂 😦 🙂

      May 7, 2012 at 4:02 pm |
    • Huebert

      Anger issues can have a victim, I suggest you work on that. Stealing definately has a victim don't do that either. Two consenting adults having s.ex does not involve a victim or cause harm in any way, plow whatever type of a$$ you like in the privacy of your own home.

      May 7, 2012 at 4:18 pm |
    • God's Oldest Dreamer

      Huebert,,,,,,,,,,,, ,

      E tu brutus? What a Judha you turned out to become! I have emotional and mental issues Huebert! I have an above average IQ but I quit schoold in the 11th grade when I was 16! 2 years later I joined the Army. 3 years later I was honorably discharged! I learned to be a cement finisher after the Army and was one untl I had a nervous breakdonw at the age of 33!. Now 57, I see life in different angles and undulations then the average joe does see things! I love the U.S.A. but not many of her social malignancies that I see eeking thru the windows of my mind and trashing my brainyard with the mindfields of others' puke!

      May 7, 2012 at 4:40 pm |
    • Huebert

      WHOA Dreamer. I don't know what I said in order for you to call me a Judas but I'm sorry I didn't mean to hurt you. I tend to use somewhat graphic imagery sorry if that bothered you.

      May 7, 2012 at 5:24 pm |
  3. Primewonk

    god's oldest dreamer wrote, " Gays are tirellessly promoting their agendas! Every child is their new convert to a way of living beyond the metrodomes of civil mindedness!"

    This, of course, is simply yet another prototypical fundiot lie. Unless, of course, he can provide the citations to the peer-reviewed scientific research supporting his inane contention.

    [hint – He can't. Because the actual research shows the exact opposite.]

    May 7, 2012 at 3:39 pm |
    • Snow

      wow.. that is some serious persecution complex "god's oldest dreamer" is going through.. Quick the entire world is out to get em and the only thing that can save them (and everyone) is by stopping gay marriage!!!!

      May 7, 2012 at 3:53 pm |
    • God's Oldest Dreamer

      Primework,,,,,,,,,,,, ,

      I've read a few articles regarding the GLBT crowd thru wardly gaining a foothold in the "public" school system(s) promoting their imbecilic books of just what it means to be of non-hetero-list! I was somewhat surprised as their allowing such book-trash being allowed in the schools libraries!

      May 7, 2012 at 4:18 pm |
    • God's Oldest Dreamer

      Primework,,,,,,,,,,,, ,

      Sticks and stones will break they do break bones due names once said about us!

      May 7, 2012 at 4:25 pm |
    • God's Oldest Dreamer

      Sorry Pwonka,,,, I missed my meds and am having a bad day so far! Today is a bad day,,,,,,,,,,,,,

      May 7, 2012 at 4:27 pm |
  4. Bradley Kisia

    not aligned to the Catholic Church's view though... which happens to be the 2000 year old saving word of Jesus the Christ.

    May 7, 2012 at 3:31 pm |
    • sam stone

      Ah....Rome's version of NAMBLA

      May 7, 2012 at 3:39 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Bradley – does you Jesus have legal stansing in our laws?

      May 7, 2012 at 3:41 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Here's another 2,000 year old law from Rome:
      " Whatever the people had last ordained should be held as binding by law."
      The zeitgeist is shifting. Religion needs to catch up or go away

      May 7, 2012 at 3:50 pm |
  5. Truth

    Has anyone actually ever gained any knowledge from reading the comments? All I see are a bunch of idiots who think they know everything and have no interest in true knowledge or higher learning.

    Real research or discussion certainly certainly doesn't take place on these boards. Willful ignorance masked as intellectual superiority is readily available however.

    May 7, 2012 at 3:30 pm |
    • .....

      pot meet kettle, kettle meet pot

      May 7, 2012 at 3:31 pm |
    • momoya

      Yes, I have gained knowledge on these boards, and I have been grateful for the opportunity. If nothing else, these boards are an expression of human nature.

      May 7, 2012 at 3:37 pm |
    • Truth

      Ahh the old pot me kettle guy, so good to see you!! Thanks for providing your typical, insightful, and wise post. It's always so refreshing to hear your point of view.

      Btw you're the atheist equivalent of "prayer changes things" guy.........both a complete waste of space and you both prove my point entirely

      May 7, 2012 at 3:42 pm |
    • Truth

      @momoya,

      Thanks for answering however I disagree. Do you really think these boards are a good representation of human nature? Where anyone can post whatever drivel they want with absolutely no accountability since it's all anonymous? I think it's an invitation for people to troll and post garbage because they can. If they required people to use their real names I promise you the dialogue here would change.

      May 7, 2012 at 3:44 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Do you really think these boards are a good representation of human nature? Where anyone can post whatever drivel they want with absolutely no accountability since it's all anonymous? I think it's an invitation for people to troll and post garbage because they can. If they required people to use their real names I promise you the dialogue here would change."

      Which is what you've been doing, what a hypocrite. LOL!

      May 7, 2012 at 3:52 pm |
    • Driftin

      I think one of those "kettle meet pot" posts should go right here. It's amazing how easy it is to become hypocritical when your emotions get the better of you. And of course this applies to me as well.

      May 7, 2012 at 4:16 pm |
  6. 4th party perspective

    1.What’s really ironic is that atheists tend to know much more about religion than the theist involved.

    2.christians are extremely hypocritical, often contradicting themselves in the same post.

    3.atheists are also hypocritical, but the majority of hypocritical posts are from Christians.

    4.if you consider the truth to be angry and hateful then so be it.

    5.the belief blog is full of complete morons. People who call atheism a religion and also claim vast intellect at the same time do not deserve a response. These people have their mind already made up and are only looking for fights which helps stroke their ego.

    6.All humans are hypocritical and wrong at certain times in their life, almost all christians like to refuse that they're responsible for any wrongdoing. Some atheists also do this but not nearly like the christians.

    May 7, 2012 at 3:28 pm |
    • 3th Party Perspective

      Wow that other post really got to you huh? The truth normally does make others mad.

      May 7, 2012 at 3:32 pm |
  7. Name*DJ

    Dan, you write this article as if gay marriage is ok with what you say "most catholics" as if that gives it Vatican approval. You mean catholics that don't practice their faith?
    Anyone can claim to be catholic, it is another matter to believe in and faithfully practice their faith and the teachings of Christ. To believe otherwise is being a hypocrite. Popular opinion or what the self proclaimed catholic VP believes means nothing to the true followers of Christ.

    May 7, 2012 at 3:21 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Anyone can claim to be catholic, it is another matter to believe in and faithfully practice their faith and the teachings of Christ. To believe otherwise is being a hypocrite. Popular opinion or what the self proclaimed catholic VP believes means nothing to the true followers of Christ."

      From a Catholic website.
      The story of Sodom in Genesis 19 is about offense against the sacred duty of hospitality. That is how Ezekiel 16:48-49, Wisdom 9:13-14, and Ecclesiasticus 16:8 unequivocally interpret this text. The attempted male rape only heightens the atrocity of this offense against charity, the paradigmatic biblical sin.

      Leviticus 18:22 does forbid male-male sex as an “abomina¬tion.” But the word simply means an impurity or a religious taboo—like eating pork—and it only applies to penetrative anal sex, not other male or female same-sex acts. Such religious requirements were to maintain and strengthen Jewish identity. As in the case of Catholics who used to be forbidden under pain of mortal sin to eat meat on Friday, the offense was not in the act itself but in the betrayal of one’s religion.

      Romans 1:27 mentions men having sex with men. But the terms used to describe it are “dishonorable” and “shameless.” These refer deliberately to social disapproval, not to ethical condemnation. Moreover, according to Paul’s popular usage, different from the technical Stoic philosophy of the day, para physin (“unnatural”) should be translated “atypical” or “beyond the ordinary.” It bears no reference to natural law. And it can imply no ethical condemnation because in 11:24 God is said to act para physin. Paul sees gay sex as an impurity (1:24), just like uncircumcision or eating forbidden foods. He mentions it to make a main point of his letter, that the purity requirements of the Jewish Law are not relevant in Christ Jesus (14:14). See L. William Countryman, Dirt, Greed, and Sex.

      1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and 1 Timothy 1:8-10 list arsenokoitai among those who will be excluded from the Reign of God. This obscure term has been translated “homosexuals,” but its exact meaning is unknown. It certainly does not include women but refers to some kind of male sexual offense, probably involving money. If it does mean men having sex with men—which is dubious—it presumes the abuse and licentiousness commonly associated with male-male sex in the Roman Empire.

      Finally, Genesis 1-3 shows Adam and Eve created for mutual companionship and procreation. These accounts use the most standard of human relationships to teach a religious lesson. The point is the love and wisdom of God, who made all things good and wills us no evil. Nothing suggests the biblical authors intended a lesson on sexual orientation.

      Neither Scripture nor Tradition nor natural law theory nor human science nor personal experience convincingly supports official Catholic teaching about the immorality of homogenital acts. Accordingly, and after much soul-searching, many gay and lesbian Catholics have formed consciences that differ from official Church teaching and have entered into homosexual relationships. In this respect they are exactly like heterosexual married Catholic couples who cannot accept Vatican teaching on contraception.

      May 7, 2012 at 3:27 pm |
    • Primewonk

      98% of adult Catholics in the US use or have used birth control. Thus, only 2% are "real" Catholics. This means there are more "real" atheists than there are "real" Catholics.

      So wwhy does the Catholic church need to own so much property for so few people?

      May 7, 2012 at 3:56 pm |
    • Driftin

      So Cheddar is now DJ? Howdy DJ. Did away with your own personal cheezus? Got tired of being plugged up? Heh.

      May 7, 2012 at 4:19 pm |
  8. just sayin

    Catholics do the work of the Devil...moot point to discuss anything further about Catholics.

    May 7, 2012 at 3:17 pm |
    • The REAL Truth...

      No that was a real intelligent response. How long did it take you to come up with that ??

      May 7, 2012 at 3:39 pm |
    • just sayin

      "No that was a real intelligent response. How long did it take you to come up with that ??"
      .
      2 hours

      May 7, 2012 at 4:20 pm |
  9. Name*DJ

    Anyone can jump over a broom and call it a marriage. Any JOP can affirm an I do. Any state can too, on paper, on plastic, or write it in the mud. It means nothing unless is in the eyes of God. Sorry to the gay population, it will never be accepted by God unless it is between 1 man and 1 woman. Call it a cult, ritual, a gay gathering, or union. It means nothing to anyone else, but don't say it is acceptable to God, because it is not!

    May 7, 2012 at 3:06 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "It means nothing unless is in the eyes of God. Sorry to the gay population, it will never be accepted by God unless it is between 1 man and 1 woman"

      That's why there are Christian churches marrying gay couples, Pastors, priests, rabbi's and nuns are going on record stating that gays do not sin when they are married to their partners. Some priests have even written apology letters to the gay community. It's stupid people like you that continue to fuel the hatred and bigotry towards this minority group and that is NOTHING like your Christ. You will not be going to your heaven but burning in hell for your judgments against them especially since you have been shown the TRUTH about this issue.

      May 7, 2012 at 3:11 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      How do you know what's acceptable to God? What a 2000 year old tome says?

      You don't have any idea what God thinks.

      May 7, 2012 at 3:15 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Just another case of wolves wearing sheep's clothing. What else is new!

      May 7, 2012 at 3:21 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Someone is babbling again.

      May 7, 2012 at 3:22 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      My last post was directed to the big mouth Tommie Tom.

      May 7, 2012 at 3:23 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Yes, I hear NameDJ and you.

      May 7, 2012 at 3:24 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Since I am a lesbian I do appreciate this story.
      Amen.

      May 7, 2012 at 4:30 pm |
  10. Name*DJ

    No matter what the liberal press says. Most Americans oppose gay marriage and civil unions, as do the overwhelming majority of practicing Catholics. Biden is a hypocrite and a liar if he recites the Appositles Creed at Mass (if he even attends). If any Catholic recites the Creed, they are swearing before God their belief in One holy, Catholic and Appostolic Church, which means you believe in all of the the teachings of the Church concerning faith and morals. To believe only this, or that, but not that is denying Christ and His teachings. He gave Peter and the Church the authority that what the Church holds bound on earth is also bound in heaven. This is stated in scriptures. Sorry, the Church is not a democracy, based on popular opinions, or what is polical correctness. It is based on natual, morrality, and Christ teachings. Just because it is legal in some states does not make it good in the eyes of God. God made marriage between 1 man and 1 woman, Christ affirmed that, evil men and women believe otherwise. If you receive Holy Communion with this belief you are committing grave sin, it is as simple as that.

    May 7, 2012 at 2:42 pm |
    • sam

      Logic fail. You must be fun at parties...oh wait. Partying is a grave sin, and evil.

      May 7, 2012 at 2:55 pm |
    • YeahRight

      The problem with your rant is even the pope has stated being gay is not a sin. The other problem with your rant is nowhere in your bible does your god condemn the saved loving respectful relationship of a gay couple as we know and understand it today. Part of reading comprehension 101 is you have to put the scriptures into historical context.

      May 7, 2012 at 3:07 pm |
    • God's Oldest Dreamer

      Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

      Did not the anointed one abolish in His flesh the commandments and ordinances?

      Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is inside you.

      If the Kindom of God is inside our bodies than why are all mankind's churches belaying to their populace "Our Church is of the Kindom of God?" Are not man-made churches based upon secularisms of unrighteousness sakes?

      1Cr 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.

      If our bodies are God's buildings then one can understand that the Godly do inhabit such buildings, but upon such a small and finite way!

      May 7, 2012 at 3:37 pm |
    • sam stone

      oooh....the liberal press.

      Well, BJ, people are not allowed to vote on other's civil rights

      May 7, 2012 at 3:41 pm |
  11. n8263

    1. Christians express dismay and are "offended" when people are critical of their religion, often going so far as to say that nobody has the right to question their views because by doing so you are being disrespectful.

    2. But then they have no problem imposing their subjective and irrational religious "morality" on others through politics.

    It is like they are completely ignorant about how these two things are related.

    May 7, 2012 at 2:06 pm |
    • God's Oldest Dreamer

      Same chit can be said about atheists, so what else is news?

      May 7, 2012 at 2:33 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      No, it can't. Atheists and agnostics aren't attempting to force YOU to do anything.

      May 7, 2012 at 2:35 pm |
    • God's Oldest Dreamer

      Tommie two tones,,,,,,,,,,,, ,

      Atheists are not agnostics and vice versa! Why are you making vain claims to mix the two? They are two very different frequencies! Does christianity truly force one to beliee in their Faiths? C'mon now, be honest about this,,,,, 🙂 🙂 🙂

      May 7, 2012 at 2:45 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      I didn't say they were, you drunken old coot.

      Stop pretending to be the Piddler. What are unbelievers forcing you to do?

      May 7, 2012 at 2:47 pm |
    • God's Oldest Dreamer

      Tommiegirlie,,,,,,,,,,,, ,

      I quit drinking of the vinyard close to 3 years now! My urges to drink alcohol seems to have been erased as if by magic! Guess there is a Holy Spirit afterall! I sure as hell didn't release myself of my urges to want to drink/imbibe on my own merits!

      May 7, 2012 at 3:48 pm |
    • Driftin

      I think someone has dementia and is in the last stages of senility before being led back to bed by the nurse with big bazoombas. Just follow the bouncing bazoombas, Dreamer. They will lead to more meds and a better buzz. Go.

      May 7, 2012 at 4:21 pm |
  12. Howard

    The self-serving pigs and celebrities, who are the ultimate one percenters, are trying their hardest to buy a second term for their liar and thief leader. Save America ... Dump Obama !!!

    May 7, 2012 at 1:53 pm |
    • God's Oldest Dreamer

      Dump Him? Who then? A Mormonite who has a religious belief regarding space gods and having eternal s.e.x.u.a.l relations with hundreds perhaps thousands of women? God Damn it for Christ's sake I believe in everlasting s.e.x.! What a friigan choice we have!

      May 7, 2012 at 2:40 pm |
    • The REAL Truth...

      You just gotta love rantings and ravings like Howards.. no facts or figures or justification. Just spoutrage!
      So what would Mittens do to fix things Howie? Sends more jobs to China? Go to war with Iran? Adopt the Ryan budget plan?
      That all makes perfect sense if you are white, uneducated and looking for someone to tell you how to live your life. There's plenty of Independent thinkers out there who disagree with your viewpoint.

      May 7, 2012 at 3:44 pm |
  13. CanadaONE

    Most Catholics have it right – HUMAN EQUALITY COMES FIRST – WE ARE GREATED EQUAL BY GOD – ANY GOD WHO WOULD TURNS HIS BACK ON WHAT HE CREATED IS NOT THE REAL GOD...PICK YOUR FAITH WISELY MOST ARE FOOLED AND DETRACTED by what some call "faith"
    but the faith of TRUE equality is the only true religion all the others are imposters created by man – misguied men...

    Biden has it RIGHT

    May 7, 2012 at 1:40 pm |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      You mean Catholics in Canada because the ones we hear from the USA are not so open. My sister is Catholic, my neighbor's are and not one of them holds a different view than you do, they all agree on equal rights.

      May 7, 2012 at 2:03 pm |
    • danielwalldammit

      Yes, he does.

      May 7, 2012 at 2:03 pm |
  14. Lizzie

    I don't know why everyone is getting so upset, this is just another way of the government to control population growth in a round about way.
    I would like to know, did they poll the same Catholics that are for and using birthcontrol, study after study showed only about 14% use birthcontrol, but this administration told us over 90%.

    May 7, 2012 at 1:35 pm |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      It is not the churches business what happens in anyone's bedroom. Population control is needed...in case you missed the basics here, our earth is holding 7 billion people and it is projected to increase to 9 billion within the next 8 years. Birth control is not only used to prevent pregnancy...it has a great many other uses and once again it is up to the individual as to what they wish to do with their body-the church does not pay their bills or raise those children, so the church needs to stay out of it!

      May 7, 2012 at 2:01 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Lizzie
      If only 14% of US Catholics used birth control, there'd be a lot more families with 6 kids or more.
      The study cited by the gov't is an April 2011 study written by Rachel K. Jones and Joerg Dreweke of the Guttmacher Insti.tute.
      The data listed in the reoirt referred to current contraceptive use among “se.xually active women who are not pregnant, post-partum or trying to get pregnant."
      68 percent of Catholic women used what are termed “highly effective methods:” 32 percent sterilization; 31 percent pill; five percent IUD. Four percent were placed in an “other” category, which mainly consisted of “withdrawal". 11 percent used nothing and only two percent currently used natural family planning
      So add it up and you get 13% adhering to Catholic tenets.

      May 7, 2012 at 2:02 pm |
    • danielwalldammit

      That is utterly ridiculous.

      May 7, 2012 at 2:04 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Yout Bishops are lying to you.

      The study is a Guttmacher Instîtute study released in April of last year. It's a study that has been replicated over the years.

      If you have valid peer-reviewed scientific research that refutes this study, by all means post it.

      May 7, 2012 at 4:10 pm |
  15. Barry In Las Vegas

    I don't know what Catholics Pew poled, but I don't know but a handful of Catholics who support gay marraige. This is just another slanted pole aimed at getting support for gay marrage by trying to make the public believe there is wide support for it. If there was, why do states keep gettiing laws passed that says do not recognize gay marraige?

    May 7, 2012 at 1:19 pm |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      Ignorance is bliss!! Not all states allow gay marriage because the religitards are part of the Bubble Squadron and think they have the correct answers within their bubble about what is right and what isn't...most religitards only believe in equal rights when it pertains to what they believe...no amount of evidence gets through to them, they just turn their heads and cry foul like the bigots they are.

      May 7, 2012 at 1:23 pm |
    • NOBOZO

      99.9% of anyone who believes in God knows that Gay marriage is wrong...next question..

      May 7, 2012 at 1:26 pm |
    • Huebert

      @NOBOZO

      About 75% of the population of this country claims to be Christian and 50% of the population of this country believe gay marriage should be allowed. I'll leave the math to you.

      May 7, 2012 at 1:29 pm |
    • fred

      Truth Prevails
      Good Gosh Truth, do you just hate anything God was involved with? A strong family which begins with a strong marriage was part of Gods order. Your new world order of anything goes founded upon tearing down what has worked for perhaps tens of thousands of years is a great experiment. Your great grand children will certainly be thanking you. I understand that decline of morality and increase in hom-o$exuality is the pattern of the fall of nations but, hey Truth your grandkids will not know the difference. The family Lassie had verses the new desire driven family is a stark contrast not simply a small tweak.
      TruthPrevails you will most likely not be around to witness the long term effect of your new society. News flash; without god the godless prevail not truth.

      May 7, 2012 at 1:39 pm |
    • no god

      The godless are the ones speaking the truth, not ass backwards religious fanatics like your self. The bibles 2000 year old jibberish does not apply to us and our current world and that is the truth.

      May 7, 2012 at 1:46 pm |
    • God's Oldest Dreamer

      TruthPrevails,,,,,,,,,,,, ,

      You'll post almost anything to "sock it to the religious" as bastions ever do mull over the bigotted complexities of atheistic contrivances won't you? Grab onto me and my beliefs and I will pull you down among us is your mantra TP! Toilet paper only gets used once and is disposed of rather quickly! Careful though when one wipes to not get stained yet always wash one's hands off after one uses the TP!

      May 7, 2012 at 1:47 pm |
    • YeahRight

      “ Your new world order of anything goes founded upon tearing down what has worked for perhaps tens of thousands of years is a great experiment.”

      It hasn’t worked for thousands of years that is a complete lie. Women were forced to marry men they didn’t love. Women in abusive relationships were forced to stay and take the abuse as well as the children before divorce became legal. Plus even today there is a 50% divorce rate among straights and it goes higher the more they remarry. Giving people their civil rights has always be the more honorable thing to do. Human beings learn from their mistakes and the experts around the world have shown that be gay is NORMAL, it’s not a mental illness and it can’t be “cured.” They also showed that everything in the past that was written about gays were done by bias and prejudice people, that includes the writers of the bible!

      “I understand that decline of morality and increase in hom-o$exuality is the pattern of the fall of nations but, hey Truth your grandkids will not know the difference.”

      That is a lie. Cite your source on that one. LOL!

      “News flash; without god the godless prevail not truth.”

      That’s why so many of those that believe in a god totally disregard the truth of the hundred of experts around the world about gays while continuing to fuel unnecessary hatred and bigotry toward this minority group. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured.”

      May 7, 2012 at 1:48 pm |
    • fred

      Huebert
      Problem is that most Christians do not live the marriage God set out. If we had honored marriage and each other as God commanded there would never be a gay issue. We have a gay issue because the Church has been torn down one stone at a time. The gay community has vested personal and very emotionally charged reason to attack God, the Bible and Marriage. The atheist community has a significantly higher percentage of gay than the normal population so it is difficult to tell if it is the desire of the flesh or hate of God or simply being godless that drives their push against anything with the cross of Christ attached. Democrats (now simply socialists in the U.S.) couldn’t care less and simply use the emotional vulnerability of the gay community and hate of the atheist to drive a nail into the Republican Party tie with evangelicals. The goal of democrats is power for George Soros who is behind the scene. George Soros has a lot of deep seated hate simply because he can’t shake the Jewish heritage and directs this hate towards Christians.
      The pattern I see is one of hate and it is not coming from those who actually follow Christ. The source is evil itself. At the heart of this attack against God is not the Atheist, the gay, the democrat or even Soros. The heart of the attack is from the anti-Christ. There are two forms one is the spirit of the anti-Christ and the other is the Antichrist which may or may not already be here.
      When you chose it is not about gay marriage rather you make a choice against God. That is the mark of the Beast.

      May 7, 2012 at 1:54 pm |
    • YeahRight

      “The gay community has vested personal and very emotionally charged reason to attack God, the Bible and Marriage.”

      They are fighting for their civil rights. The experts around the world have proven that it is not a mental illness, it’s not a choice and it can’t be voluntarily changed. Many in the Christians community are ignoring the REAL facts about this issue.

      “The atheist community has a significantly higher percentage of gay than the normal population so it is difficult to tell if it is the desire of the flesh or hate of God or simply being godless that drives their push against anything with the cross of Christ attached.”

      That is a complete lie all the gays and lesbians I know are Christians and attend Church!
      Cite your source on this statement.

      “Democrats (now simply socialists in the U.S.) couldn’t care less and simply use the emotional vulnerability of the gay community and hate of the atheist to drive a nail into the Republican Party tie with evangelicals. “

      LOL! The lies just keep on coming.

      “The pattern I see is one of hate and it is not coming from those who actually follow Christ. The source is evil itself. At the heart of this attack against God is not the Atheist, the gay, the democrat or even Soros. The heart of the attack is from the anti-Christ. There are two forms one is the spirit of the anti-Christ and the other is the Antichrist which may or may not already be here.”

      That’s not true either. Obviously you’re not a real Christian with all the lies you are telling.

      “When you chose it is not about gay marriage rather you make a choice against God. That is the mark of the Beast.”

      What a load of crap since there are thousands of churches that have gone on record stating gays are not sinners. Some have gone as far as writing apology letters to the gay community. They are by no means the mark of the beast. Wow the lies you have told in this post is appalling.

      May 7, 2012 at 2:01 pm |
    • fred

      YeahRight
      Orientation is not a choice but, what you do with your orientation is. Oh, I was born that way is not an excuse for anything including what an adult does with his or her $exual organ. There is a reason male gym teachers are not allowed to supervise the girls shower room.
      The issue is if we really want to toss thousands of years of what is known for what is unknown and driven by what is in fact not normal behavior. The marriage of a man and a man is not normal in any sense of the word marriage. Tell me YeahRight what percentage of gay man man marriages have a dominate female male relationship in bed?
      The issue is a change from a God centered world view to self centered world view.

      May 7, 2012 at 2:05 pm |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      @God's Oldest Dreamer: You're an ignorant ass! I am only pointing out some basic facts and you're too blinded by your own bigotry to see them. Careful there, people who suffer from delusions of grandeur such as the ones you are suffering from are usually considered to be mentally ill and are placed in asylums!

      @Fred: I don't have an issue with religion until it steps on equal rights and that is what we've been hearing here.

      May 7, 2012 at 2:08 pm |
    • sam stone

      fred: what two adults do in their bedroom (or living room, or kitchen, or laundry room, etc) is not the business of the government

      May 7, 2012 at 2:09 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      The only basis you have that it is not normal behavior is your bible, which is not an acceptable authority on anything to do with science or psychology.

      May 7, 2012 at 2:10 pm |
    • Huebert

      @fred

      No, you have a "gay issue" because you're a bigot. You hate hom.ose.xuality because it's different and you don't understand it. Your hate is wrong and more people are seeing that, just like more people are now seeing that god is simply not real, don't worry neither is the devil or the Antichrist. You think we are in the last days because the world is changing. These aren't the last days they are the first, the first days of people discarding the trinkets and bobbles of a now defunct philosophy. Welcome to the new world, to borrow an expression from the old, god help you.

      May 7, 2012 at 2:12 pm |
    • YeahRight

      “Orientation is not a choice but, what you do with your orientation is.”

      Yeah, it’s called having a loving respectful relationship with your partner, just like straights do. Gays are just as entitled to live loving happy lives as straights!

      “Oh, I was born that way is not an excuse for anything including what an adult does with his or her $exual organ.”

      Yo idiot, straights have the same kind of sex! Duh!

      “The issue is if we really want to toss thousands of years of what is known for what is unknown and driven by what is in fact not normal behavior”

      The hundreds of thousands of experts have proven it’s NORMAL behavior.

      “The marriage of a man and a man is not normal in any sense of the word marriage.”

      Yes it is, which is why it’s slowing becoming legal.

      “Tell me YeahRight what percentage of gay man man marriages have a dominate female male relationship in bed?”

      How many straight couples do you know that It’s the woman that is dominate in the relationship and the men are staying home to take care of the kids. It’s a growing trend in our society today. Your stereotyping of gays speaks volumes about your prejudice and bigotry.

      “The issue is a change from a God centered world view to self centered world view.”

      That’s why there are so may gay churches and gay Christians. LOL! Your continued lying shows you can’t even follow your own rule book. LMAO!

      May 7, 2012 at 2:12 pm |
    • fred

      YeahRight
      “That is a complete lie all the gays and lesbians I know are Christians and attend Church!”
      Gays and lesbians I know could never follow Christ until they become straight with God. Orientation is a different issue as the first cornerstone with Christ is to ask Christ into your life. This is the first step and Christ will help you through it. There is no sense talking about sin if you do not have a thirst for God.

      May 7, 2012 at 2:14 pm |
    • fred

      HawaiiGuest
      Ok, everything is normal with that perspective. Yes, it is normal for one percent of people to exhibit Antisocial Personality Disorder. I guess you would say that is normal?
      When does being politically correct become a lie?
      I do not hate people with antisocial personality disorder yet none are my friends (to my knowledge). I have many gay friends and most do not want to get married.

      May 7, 2012 at 2:28 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Gays and lesbians I know could never follow Christ until they become straight with God. Orientation is a different issue as the first cornerstone with Christ is to ask Christ into your life. This is the first step and Christ will help you through it. There is no sense talking about sin if you do not have a thirst for God."

      They are straight with your god because they don't have a choice in being gay, which is why many pastors, rabbis, nuns etc.. are telling people that gays we we know and understand about them today do not sin when they are married before your god to their partners. Yes, I have attended these ceremonies. Your bible does not condemn the saved loving relationship of gay partnership. What your bible does condemn is male prostitution, idolatry and using sex to worship a pagan god.

      May 7, 2012 at 2:36 pm |
    • fred

      Huebert
      I do not hate hom-o$exuals that would go against everything Christ stood for. I am pointing out that evil is behind the abuse of the gay community, the Christian community and basically everything that is of God.
      Everyone has a dog in the match what’s yours?
      My dog is not gays but the power players using the gay issue to split the church and drive another nail into Christ. The real abuse is not Christ verses the gay but, bullies in the power structure manipulating the community.

      May 7, 2012 at 2:36 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "I have many gay friends and most do not want to get married."

      That is still not a valid reason to block gay civil rights.

      May 7, 2012 at 2:41 pm |
    • fred

      Yeah Right
      My Bible condems the rejection of God and living your life for your own pleasures rather than give your life to Christ. Jesus never had to bring up the gay issue as it was secondary to what was most important and the beginning of a personal relationship with God. The gay issue is a political one that brings people to the polls and allows one side to attempt to show they are somehow more compassionate than right wing Christian fundamentalists (typed as Republicans).

      May 7, 2012 at 2:43 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      If a person with an antisocial disorder were like that for no chemical or psychological reason, then yes they would be considered normal, but still a minority. I have a slight form of this, mostly from psychological reasons having to do with my past, which would technically put me into an abnormal category. Yet abnoral does not equate to immoral, and that is the connection that many fail to see. Even if hom.ose.xuality is abnormal (which it isn't and has been shown many many times) that does not mean it is immoral.

      May 7, 2012 at 2:45 pm |
    • fred

      Yeah Right
      You have age limits, family relationship limits (marry you brother), number limits (how many wives), mental capacity limits, species limits and I imagine many I never dreamed of. Civil Rights will always be limited.

      May 7, 2012 at 2:47 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "I am pointing out that evil is behind the abuse of the gay community, the Christian community and basically everything that is of God."

      It's not abuse. It is finally showing what your cult is really about hate and intolerance for anyone who doesn't believe as you do. Most of you don't really follow your own rule book, you've been doing it with all the lies you've been telling. If Christians were actually more like their Christ that would speak volumes but most of you are not, full of hate, greed and judgements.

      "My dog is not gays but the power players using the gay issue to split the church and drive another nail into Christ. The real abuse is not Christ verses the gay but, bullies in the power structure manipulating the community"

      LMAO! The Christians church has been split long before the gay issue which is why there are so many denominations. Again more lies on your part.

      May 7, 2012 at 2:49 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "My Bible condems the rejection of God and living your life for your own pleasures rather than give your life to Christ. Jesus never had to bring up the gay issue as it was secondary to what was most important and the beginning of a personal relationship with God."

      Your Christ actually states that you should get married if you want to be with someone. Which is why saved Christian gays get married before their god in church.

      "The gay issue is a political one that brings people to the polls and allows one side to attempt to show they are somehow more compassionate than right wing Christian fundamentalists (typed as Republicans)."

      It's called civil rights it has nothing to do with compassion – it's about equal rights for EVERYONE!

      May 7, 2012 at 2:53 pm |
    • fred

      HawaiiGuest
      Ten fingers and ten toes is normal whereas any other number is abnormal. Hom-o$exuality is moral or immoral based on some standard. Being born gay is abnormal although not politically correct to state in that fashion.

      May 7, 2012 at 2:55 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      Saying that being born gay is abnormal flies in the face of scientific and pschological research from people who understand the biology and genetics behind human beings much better than you or I. Just because you say it doesn't make it true fred. My stance is supported by the scientific community. Whether you view it as immoral is irrelevant, it is whether it is immoral from an objective view (which it isn't) would determine the validity of that stance.

      What basis do you have for taking the stance that it is:
      1) Unnatural
      2) Immoral

      May 7, 2012 at 3:00 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Civil Rights will always be limited."

      Not to gays it won't since hundred's of thousands of experts have proven it's NORMAL. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      May 7, 2012 at 3:01 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Being born gay is abnormal although not politically correct to state in that fashion."

      No it's not and only prejudice and bigoted people try to make that claim since the experts around the world have proven you WRONG! Your ego just can't handle that.

      May 7, 2012 at 3:02 pm |
    • dewschelord3000

      fred...

      “without god the godless prevail not truth.” What the fuck are you trying to say here you halfwit?

      May 7, 2012 at 3:06 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Fred
      Number Limits – dates back to anti-mormon sentiment in the 1700s. Check out the Morrill laws.
      Age Limits – children cannot give informed consent
      Incest Limits – because we know for a fact that incest vastly increases the chances of siring genetically deficient offspring.
      Mental Capacity Limits – the mentally handicapped cannot give informed consent
      Species limits – animals cannot give informed consent.

      Paul was of the firm belief that a good Christian is celibate – but if you can't control your "urges", then get married.
      Straight people can chose not to act on their natural urges and live the kind of pious, Christian life that teh Bible's prime author suggested – but the overwhelming majority of people cannot live a celibate life.
      If straight people can marry to satisfy their lusts, why not gay people as well?

      May 7, 2012 at 3:15 pm |
    • fred

      Doc
      Ok, Jesus agrees with you in Matt 19:11 that only those who can accept celibacy should. It would have been nice if Jesus head on addressed an issue that Jesus knew would divide the church (or a wedge driven by evil). The question then is why did Jesus leave it out? Certainly no one in that culture would have needed to know about gay marriage and it would have been one big distraction from the main message if Jesus suggested gay marriage. Adultery does not keep you out of the Kingdom it is rejecting Chris that blocks entry. A unmarried gay or straight couple are in the same boat as are a married gay or straight couple when it comes to getting in the Kingdom. It is not about satisfying lusts so marriage has nothing to do with it. How do you honor God in the way live and in the deepest thoughts of your heart is a better standard than binding lust with a certificate.

      May 7, 2012 at 4:02 pm |
    • Huebert

      @fred

      If you don't hate h.omose.xuals, as you claim, would you kindly cease you opposition to their quest for equal rights? Rights that you enjoy and, I assume, take full advantage of. What right, you ask. Why, the right to get married to the person of your choice, provided of course that that person gives informed consent.

      May 7, 2012 at 4:25 pm |
    • fred

      dewschelord3000

      We have existed under a world view that there is a god. Just about everyone alive today preceives the world through the lens of that hertiage. The atheist movement and the gay movement seeks to undermine the core foundation of our world view that is based on the Hebrew Bible. That is the only record of God that we have. Undercut the Bible the Word of God and you have nothing left base the standard of morality upon. Your new standard becomes whatever man desires not a standard based on the Holy God. Without the Glory of God and the Holy nature of God you are left with the desire of man which always ends in godlessness and destruction.

      May 7, 2012 at 4:27 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      NOBOZO

      99.9% of anyone who believes in God knows that Gay marriage is wrong...next question..

      WRONG

      May 7, 2012 at 4:36 pm |
    • fred

      Huebert
      I venture to guess that most marriages today are outside the relationship God established for husband and wife. God is not at all impressed with what we have done to marriage or our silly secular laws. Marriage in the eyes of the State is simply that marriage in the eyes of the State. On a federal level we have a much bigger problem as marriage laws were enacted to provide for a wife that fit a model from 100 years ago where the wife stayed home to care for the kids and husband under a biblical marriage relationship. Pension and Social Security law is based on the old model. We need to trash all existing laws and regulations regarding marriage and start over. We need to determine what the wife is now enti-tled to under a new godless society. We need to decide if 14million AIDS infected non U.S. citizens that wish to marry are suddenly ent.itled to $658,500 average care cost or $9,212,000,000,000 total liability to the U.S.. Cost is cheaper outside the U.S. but everyone is under the impression that we have unlimited great healthcare. That is just the beginning.
      All I say is good luck getting our politicians to make these hard decisions. They will not. They will pass gay marriage to get votes but refuse to touch the real issue.

      May 7, 2012 at 5:01 pm |
    • Really-O?

      ...and believers wonder why non-believers won't "just leave them alone", after all, "their beliefs don't hurt anyone". 'Nuff said.

      May 7, 2012 at 5:14 pm |
    • fred

      HawiiGuest
      I used the term normal and abnormal. Gay orientation is abnormal or if you prefer outside the acceptable standard deviation from the norm.
      As to immorality the Greeks had their strange views as did the Puritans. God set a standard which people argue about to this day. Without a standard we cannot measure morality or immorality. My objection is to those that think it is good to throw out Gods standard which has been known since the beginning of written history and replace it with the new godless standard.

      May 7, 2012 at 5:17 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "99.9% of anyone who believes in God knows that Gay marriage is wrong"

      No they don't because there are only 80% of the people in the US that claim to be Christians and 50% of the people in the US support gay marriage. What's hysterical is you can't even follow one of the basic Ten Commandments liar.

      May 7, 2012 at 5:18 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Gay orientation is abnormal or if you prefer outside the acceptable standard deviation from the norm."

      "Both heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Both have been documented in many different cultures and historical eras. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience."

      Obviously you have not clue about this issue.

      May 7, 2012 at 5:21 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "God set a standard which people argue about to this day. Without a standard we cannot measure morality or immorality. My objection is to those that think it is good to throw out Gods standard which has been known since the beginning of written history and replace it with the new godless standard."

      The problem is through out history Christians have been proven wrong over and over again, this is just one more time you are WRONG!

      May 7, 2012 at 5:22 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      Without knowing the mechanism of se.xual orientation, it is impossible to say whether it is abnormal or not. All we know is that it is not a choice, and once the mechanism is found, then it would be prudent to make a judgement call on whether it is "abnormal" depending on your definition. As for it being immoral, you are not applying any type of objective thought into it. The bible says so, therefore to you it is. Not everyone is that narrowminded. There is no objective reason that hom.ose.xuality would be considered immoral. You cannot assert as much in any type of convincing way. You can constantly say that your gods morality has been known for all of written history, but there have always been those who have rejected those notions, and there always will be. You seem to reject the very notion of objective morality, and you could not be more wrong in that regard.

      May 7, 2012 at 5:25 pm |
    • fred

      HawiiGuest
      It was assumed there is but one God and in the beginning God created. One Holy God who created all things and does not change sets the objective moral standard. Our interpretation of that standard could never be Holy or objective. In short I agree morality from our side of the fence is subjective. Now, we argue about our interpretation of that standard or the accuracy of those who recorded the God standard.
      We have an estimated 27 million $ex slave today some think it is immoral others do not. What would the godless standard be? I suspect the consensus would be that it is immoral and the standard would be ………………gut feeling or popular vote in the Vatican. The problem with popular vote is some countries and economies have different interpretations of what is a slave and Bill Clinton would argue what is $ex.

      May 7, 2012 at 5:50 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "The problem with popular vote is some countries and economies have different interpretations of what is a slave and Bill Clinton would argue what is $ex."

      Most of the world organizations have gone on record stating being gay is not a mental illness, it's not a choice and it can't be cured. The problem is religion is the thing that is continuing to fuel the hatred, bigotry and violence against this minority group.and all of it is completely founded in lies about them as you and others continue to demonstrate by your posts.

      May 7, 2012 at 5:55 pm |
    • fred

      YeahRight
      I did not say you were disturbed. If I put ten of you in a line up and all but one faced the front what would you like to call the one facing the opposite direction?

      May 7, 2012 at 5:57 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      You must first define what a "godless" standard would include? Do you believe people have natural rights or given rights? From a naturalistic viewpoint, se.x slaves are wrong, since it infringes on the choice of what a person wants to do with their own body. Putting the standard of preserving as many freedoms to choose without negatively impacting the other party would be a base for morality. There are other secular bases of morality that could be used, but I think a naturalistic base is the most fair and objective standard that we could aspire to.

      May 7, 2012 at 5:57 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      Also, just because something is assumed, and just because it has been around for a long time, doesn't make it true. If that were the case, than the earth physically changed from flat to spherical in the past. So just because it was assumed in the past that there is one true god, doesn't make it so.

      May 7, 2012 at 5:59 pm |
    • fred

      HawiiGuest
      If evil is defined as that which does or can hurt another then removing all evil is your optimum desired objective state of morality?
      Looks like God beat you to that new Heaven and Earth. We end with pure goodness which last I heard was unity in Christ.

      May 7, 2012 at 6:04 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "I did not say you were disturbed. If I put ten of you in a line up and all but one faced the front what would you like to call the one facing the opposite direction?"

      I am not gay. If you lined up 9 white people and put in one black person what would you call the one black person? Or better yet how about we line up 9 Roman Soldiers and 1 Jesus and what you call your Christ? Your prejudice runs deep.

      May 7, 2012 at 6:04 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Looks like God beat you to that new Heaven and Earth. We end with pure goodness which last I heard was unity in Christ."

      Nope science has proven goodness is in our DNA. Religious people find it very annoying that people don't need God to be good, as science has now incontestably proved.

      For millennia, we've been brainwashed into believing that we needed the Almighty to redeem us from an essentially corrupt nature. Left to our own devices, people would quickly devolve into beasts, more violent, tactless, aggressive, and selfish, than we already are.

      Today, we know that this isn't true. With the discovery of mirror neurons by Italian neuroscientist Giaccomo Rizzolatti in the 1990s, we now have physiological proof of why - and how - our species became hard-wired for goodness. Mirror neurons are miraculous cells in the brain whose sole purpose is to harmonize us with our environments. By reflecting the outside world inward, we actually become each other - a little bit; neurologically changed by what is happening around us. Mirror neurons are the reason that we have empathy and can feel each other's pain. It is because of mirror neurons that you blush when you see someone else humiliated, flinch when someone else is struck, and can't resist the urge to laugh when seeing a group struck with the giggles. (Indeed, people who test for "contagious yawning" tend to be more empathic.) These tiny mirrors are the key to most things noble and good inside us.

      It is through mirror neurons - not God - that we redeem ourselves, achieve salvation, and are "reborn" in virtuous ways once co-opted by religions. Evolution knew what she was doing. A group of successful cooperators has a much higher chance of thriving than a population of selfish liars. In spite of what we read in the headlines, the ratio of bad to good deeds done on any given day across our planet holds at close to zero any day of the year. Although we are ethical works-in-progress, the vast majority of us are naturally positive creatures - meaning not harmful to our environments - most of the time in most of the ways that matter. And God has nothing to do with it.

      Spirituality does but God doesn't. Evolutionary psychologists tell us that our brains are hard-wired with a five-toned moral organ that focuses on a quintet of ethical values - one of which is purity, or sacredness. In a world that can sometimes be disgusting, we evolved an upper tier of emotional longing - the aspiration for purity - to keep us balanced in this satyricon of carnal delights (where animality beckons and frequently wins). Our need for sacredness is part of our ancient survival apparatus, and manifests in what we call faith, the need to connect with that sacred dimension. This has been the primary purpose of religion, of course - to congregate people for the Greater Good - but God has been, in fact, the divine carrot. The important part was communion, a context in which to transcend ourselves, if only for an hour on Sundays. Without this ability "to turn off the Me and turn on the We," moral psychologist Jonathan Haidt tells us, our species would still be wandering around as groups of nomads, unable to create a civilization.

      Aside from mirror neurons, there's oxytocin, the molecule of connection (also known as the molecule of love). It's fascinating to learn that the vagus nerve produces more oxytocin when we witness virtuous behavior in others that makes us want to be better people ourselves. That is why people like Oprah Winfrey and Barack Obama are known in neurological circles as "vagal superstars." We are wired by nature to be elevated at the sight of other people's goodness, mirror neurons and oxytocin conspiring to improve the species. Miraculous though it is, this natural human phenomenon has nothing to do with theology.

      May 7, 2012 at 6:07 pm |
    • fred

      YeahRight
      You appear to be the prejudiced bigot. Why would you assume I was straight and the one facing the opposite direction was gay? That said, using your example there is something that stands out about Jesus. He was not your normal Jew.

      May 7, 2012 at 6:16 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "You appear to be the prejudiced bigot. Why would you assume I was straight and the one facing the opposite direction was gay? That said, using your example there is something that stands out about Jesus. He was not your normal Jew."

      Thanks for proving you have reading comprehension problems. Where did I assume that? That is a lie on your part. You can try to twist this issue any way you want but you're still just twisting it to fit your prejudice mind, nothing more. The experts around the world have proven you wrong and your ego can't handle the fact you're wrong.

      May 7, 2012 at 6:19 pm |
    • fred

      YeahRight
      Perhaps I do have a comprehension problem. I do not have a problem with straights if that is what you are suggesting. Orientation has never been an issue with me or Jesus for that matter. I think we are off track somehow in this thread. I meant no offense in my suggestion that your comment about the lineup was any less bigoted than mine. I will choose better words next time.

      May 7, 2012 at 6:38 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      I'm going to wonder when your actually going to understand that many people don't believe as you do, and that your assertions cannot be shown to be true. I make no illusions about abolishing all evil, because I know that from a naturalistic standpoint it is impossible. Human nature is dualistic in that everyone has the capacity for good and evil. Abolishing evil is a pipe-dream that will never happen. You can assert things about god all you want, and when show a duality in your notion of god, it suddenly becomes all fine and dandy. That, more than anything, is what shows dogmatic belief to be something that can be poisonous as well as helpful (whether or not it's true).

      May 7, 2012 at 7:17 pm |
    • fred

      HawiiGuest
      Actually, I was initially shocked that people on this site were not excited to hear about the wonders of God. Then I was shocked they could not grasp all my proof as to the existence of God and great things God has done. Now, it appears I am in the final Christian fall back position that if only they would ask Jesus to give them the faith needed they would see the wonder and hear the truth. I suspect once I stop caring if anyone else ever sees the wonder it would mean that the shine of dogma has reached its end. Then I might understand why others do not believe.

      May 7, 2012 at 7:34 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      First off, you haven't offered proofs, you have offered personal experience that cannot be replicated to any kind of reliable degree. Second, there have been those, like me, who were raised christian or catholic, and have left the religion after a lot of contemplation. I went through it, I left religion kicking and screaming, praying as hard as I could for the faith to keep going, wondering why god supposedly gave me the analytical and skeptical personality that I have to not be able to take things on faith. There was nothing. And I can gaurantee you I was sincere in my prayers to find the faith I needed, and there was nothing. My mind does not allow for leaps of faith like others do. If you turn out to be right fred, and if I end up going to any kind of hell, your god is the one responsible for that, as would be the case for many atheists. After analyzing what I believe and what reality could be shown, there was absolutely no way for me to be intellectually honest and continue to be a believer.

      May 7, 2012 at 7:41 pm |
    • fred

      HawaiiGuest
      Personally I recognize I am not the brightest bulb on the tree which can be a blessing since I have been told if I really understood science I would not believe in this Bible. On the other hand I seem to give extra weight to the scientists at our church that believe assuming that If these really smart guys believe it cannot be as I hear on this web site.
      Time will tell, I hope my ears are actually open. One thing I know for sure and this is you don’t know what you don’t know. At this point I don’t know how someone cannot believe yet it was not that long ago I did not believe.
      I am struggling more these days to reassure myself the Bible is 100% true as written. I plan to go over the evidence of God again to see if there is anything I missed. Yes, if I find it I can’t help but share my discovery.

      May 7, 2012 at 8:11 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      Share all you want. Just make sure you don't get stubborn if something you find is refuted, and also keep in mind that evidence for A god and evidence for YOUR god are two completely different things, and as of yet I have heard of no evidence for either.

      May 7, 2012 at 8:22 pm |
    • fred

      HawaiiGuest
      “After analyzing what I believe and what reality could be shown, there was absolutely no way for me to be intellectually honest and continue to be a believer.”
      =>Even if you discount the personal experience observations that are consistent as to sudden belief or “conversion experience” at best you have no acceptable evidence for or against God. What is the reason for your default position being there is no God verses I don’t know as I have no information.

      May 8, 2012 at 12:53 am |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      Because the default position on whether something exists or not (logically) is that it doesn't until it can be shown to exist. I'm what's classified as an agnostic atheist. Someone who would accept verifiable evidence of anything supernatural as long as the evidence is solid and supports it. Until that time the default position should always be a rejection of the claim. Its simple logic. Someone else's experience (no matter how many) as the sole basis will never be able to convince me of anything.

      May 8, 2012 at 4:09 pm |
    • fred

      HawiiGuest
      One of the hooks that keep me teahtered to the truth of the Bible is that I had a sudden conversion experience that went by the book (Jesus words on how to be saved). Saul of Tarsus had a similar conversion experience and so I rely on his writings (those 7 books of Paul accepted by historic scholars as real extant writings of 50-55AD). People discount Paul’s conversion and discount my own and the millions like it. We do not see a lot of heroes of the Bible that fly only simple people doing great things when God acts through them. That is the power of God to change lives through the spirit not a snap of the wand. The witness and the changed lives are the evidence which is what the Bible basically says in the New Testament. In the old we have a lot of symbolism which was the language of the day. Nicodemus and the Sanhedrin had the same problem when they wanted Jesus do use a wand instead of Gods way to reveal truth.
      The witnesses and the testimonies are almost endless and Jesus said that is the way to tell people about God. You say that is not enough even though you could spend the rest of your life speaking with these personal witnesses and never exhaust this empirical evidence. Like Abraham said to the rich man in luke 16 “‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

      May 8, 2012 at 4:50 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      A personal conversion and the changing of a life is not evidence, and this is why. Have you ever heard of psychosomatic problems with a person? It shows how much power what we think has over our own persons. Something that is psychosomatic is a physical symptom (like pain, or itchiness, to even worse things) that have absolutely no reason for it physically, and is merely in the mind of the person. You see it a lot in hypocondriacs. A really good example is if your watching a show with a lot of scratching or lice or something like that, most people will begin to feel itchy, not because of lice or anything like that, but because of what they are watching and thinking about, a psychosomatic effect takes place. People have even been known to die through those kinds of things. So a "personal conversion", unless it can be shown otherwise, can be attributed quite easily to a shift in the persons mindset. So a psychosomatic effect is much more likely than an all powerful "thing".

      May 8, 2012 at 5:56 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      I also got a little itchy while I was writing the part about itchiness.

      May 8, 2012 at 5:57 pm |
    • fred

      HawaiiGuest
      You are just starting to scratch the surface of belief. Saul of Tarsus said it is the att-itude of the mind that must be adjusted.
      Romans 15:5” May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you the same att-itude of mind toward each other that Christ Jesus had,”
      Ephesians 4:22-24 “You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the att-itude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.”
      I always found that word att-itude is very important somehow. When one approaches the Bible or anything else it is the att-itude or disposition of the mind that is about to encounter an event that is key to the perception of the event. Before my conversion my att-itude changed in that I was now broken instead of self assured / self absorbed and unable to find my own way out (pull myself up by my own bootstraps). This allowed me to look with hope instead of a closed mind at my initial glance on some words in that Bible. Saul was knocked off his horse and blinded then his att-itude changed towards the possibility of another point of view. After hearing your position that God is an Evil Killer I became aware that one could draw that conclusion when I was looking for that position while reading the Bible. Psychosomatic or simply a new att-itude change is observable and the cause was the Word of God. Does that not point to truth when the Bible says there is power in the world of God to change lives? Do we not have cause and effect?
      One great difficulty that has haunted man from the earliest of days is that we are poor example of a chosen people or Christ like people. Our witness through our lives and testimony was to be the proof Christ was who He claimed to be. Based on our example as Christians over the past 2,000 years it is our witness and testimony people see yet the proof is we are no different by example than any other non believer. We destroyed the evidence in our very actions as very little Christ likeness abounds. If Christians were to begin living as Christ commanded do you think that evidence would be any more acceptable? If we actually showed love to our enemies and became servants in their best interests would anyone notice that Christ in our lives actually has a beneficial effect?
      Perhaps then people may actually think something good could come out of Nazerath.

      May 8, 2012 at 7:12 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      I should point out, that what you have is a belief based on faith. I know what belief is, and I know what faith is, and I cannot have faith (it is the acceptance of a belief or idea devoid of evidence). Att.itude is only relevant when it comes to interpretation, not the actual truth of something. Saying that you need a specific att.itude to understand something as you do merely makes your understanding of it a subjective stance, which does not give any indication to its truthfulness. Looking at something like the bible with a veil of needing a specific att.itude leads to nothing. As to the cause, this is not exclusive to the "word of god", and att.itude changes, behaviour changes, or any other kind of changes in a person can come about just as frequently and dramatically (and has) from sources that have nothing to do with any religion. Your simply looking at this in a way that would validate your own preconceptions.
      For your second paragraph, if christians were to act more "christ-like" it would not give any more credence to their claims. This is because the way you act is irrelevant to the actual claim, and the actions would merely show that they are not hypocritical in their own beliefs. Religion has positive effect for some, but not all. In fact, it has a marked negative effect on some people, and gives some people justification for terrible actions. This can be said of any belief religious or not, and has absolutely no bearing on the validity of the claim at all.
      You're beginning to attempt to appeal to emotions fred, but the appeal does not give validity when it comes to the truth of the claims.

      May 8, 2012 at 7:41 pm |
    • fred

      “As to the cause, this is not exclusive to the "word of god", and att.itude changes, behaviour changes, or any other kind of changes in a person can come about just as frequently and dramatically (and has) from sources that have nothing to do with any religion”
      =>If you take a Yoga class to get in shape and lose weight the cause of the weight loss could be the yoga class or perhaps you caught the flu, have an undiagnosed case of stomach cancer, the MacDonald’s down the street was closed, etc. We just cannot say the cause was the Yoga class.

      May 9, 2012 at 7:58 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      Not really sure what you're getting at in your response. But the analogy you're using is vastly different to religious claims. For one, religious claims are based in supernatural explanations, which would naturally have no true evidence for beyond "personal experiences". Your analogy is a physical not a metaphysical question, in which it is measurable and testable. Also don't forget about the rest of my post.

      May 9, 2012 at 8:39 pm |
    • fred

      HawiiGuest
      Much of the rest of your post has me thinking so I put that aside for the moment.
      Christians are to be on the look out for supernatural activities in the last days which is more of a sign of the antichrist rather than proof of God.
      Back to cause I doubt we can measure the metaphysical side but we can come up with a body of evidence that says if X then Y. I hear or read the Word of God and change can be observed. A Hindu hears or reads something then meditates and a change can be observed. The cause is the hearing of the word. Jesus said that is all believers can do is get the word out and live as Christ. Like anything else spend enough time emersed in any given area and we are impacted by it. Christians must remain emersed and constantly encouraged to stay on track. A hang over from the traditions and ceremony of the past the kept minds focused but, effective. I assume you are really saying I just cannot prove God is behind the cause or is the cause of the Word with regard to the Bible which has changed the world we live in and is the foundation of Western culture for 2,000 years.

      May 9, 2012 at 9:36 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      I'm not sure why you'd bring up the impact, as it would once again not have any bearing on the validity or truthfullness.. As for modern western culture, the bible is not so much a foundation, as part of a mix of different thoughts and traditions coming together. Take our current setup of government, and the very idea of democracy, which was used in rome to generally good effect before christianity came about. Philosophy, and poetry also originated outside of the christian influence. Many scientific discoveries came about only after religious influence began to wane as well.

      May 9, 2012 at 9:51 pm |
    • fred

      HawaiiGuest
      The U.S. still remains a superpower and on its money you see reference to God as well as in the pledge and the const-itutions of most states. Declaration of independence “all men are created equal …..endowed by their creator”. No man can be elected President unless they are or pretend to be Christian. The sound bite dividing the two main ideologies in the U.S. are Christian right intollerance. Israel and the Arab world remain locked in conflict since the first two sons of Abraham fighting over the Holy Land and the temple ground. Communism when after God and the believers of God because of the power just the “illusion” of God has over people. Etc Etc.
      Tell me how we are not under the influence of God real or imagined.

      May 10, 2012 at 2:11 am |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      U.S. currency had no reference of god until the late 1950's, and it's the same with the pledge. I'm not sure when the state consti.tutions first had god references, or even if they do, so I would need to look at that, but if they do have references to "god" specifically, it would be a violation of the federal consti.tution. Creator doesn't show anything, and it especially doesnt give any indication as to the religious affiliation of the authors of the declaration, so the point is fairly moot. The sound bite is really not the main one, it is more like left=social programs and right=warmongering. Israel's issues are middle eastern, not western. I'm not sure what you were trying to say about communism.

      May 10, 2012 at 9:50 pm |
    • I call BS

      When you figure out what fred is trying to "say" (and I use the word 'say' advisedly), please let the rest of us know.

      Thanks ever so.

      May 10, 2012 at 9:53 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @I call BS

      fred is pointing out some of the religiously influenced decisions is the past and present to show the impact of religion. I was talking about the error he made in saying that the foundation of western culture is based in christianity, and I think that I made a fairly good case against that. But either way, it once again has no bearing on the validity of the claim whatsoever, and that is at the heart of discussion.

      May 10, 2012 at 9:58 pm |
  16. Nancy

    All of you "traditional" married folks out there - guess what? The government only sees you as a civil union. When you registered your marriage with the local government, that is what it became. Civil only means recognized by the government. If you were married by a priest, rabbi or minister and did not file your paperwork with the government, your marriage is not recognzied by the government, but may be recognized by your religious group. There are polygamous sects that do multiple marriages and recognize them as legitimate. But they don't file paperwork with the government because it is not legal – so nothing the government can do. Recognizing and giving rights to gay unions should be a no-brainer for governments. Think of all the additional license fees they could collect. Because of the separation of church and state, the government cannot force a religious organization to perform or recognize any marriage that doesn't follow the church's tenets. Remember when the Catholic Church still saw you as married even though the state granted a divorce? You couldn't get subsequent marriages recognized by the Catholic Church unless your ex-spouse died or you could get an annullment. So get over it. Your religion fanaticism is safe if the government gives the same rights to gay couples as traditional couples have enjoyed for centuries.

    May 7, 2012 at 1:17 pm |
  17. Illiterate Dude

    Can atheists be conservative or are they requried to be liberal?

    May 7, 2012 at 1:14 pm |
    • I'm The Best!

      I'm a financially conservative atheist. Obama and his ideas on how to spend my money can suck it.
      On the other hand, socially I'm very liberal. Denying gays the right to marry is just wrong and shows how some people don't care who they hurt as long as they get their way.

      – a strait atheist.

      May 7, 2012 at 1:21 pm |
    • NOBOZO

      Sorry but conservatives beleive in something......You...not so much. You fall in the Liberal line....thats too bad.

      May 7, 2012 at 1:29 pm |
    • sam stone

      i am a conservative atheist

      May 7, 2012 at 1:31 pm |
    • I'm The Best!

      So I'm not a conservative because I'm an atheist? How does that make sense? They aren't even really related.

      May 7, 2012 at 1:33 pm |
    • Huebert

      I am an atheist who is a classic conservative. I'm for limiting the government in general. Which, to me, means that the government doesn't get to regulate marriage in any way, beyond insisting upon informed consent for all parties involved.

      May 7, 2012 at 1:38 pm |
    • danielwalldammit

      A lot of atheists are conservative. They tend to be in the Ayn Rand/Libertarian camp, which is to say that they belong to a cult that worships pathology. Exceptions exist of course.

      May 7, 2012 at 2:06 pm |
    • Driftin

      @danielwalldammit
      Oh, you've done a survey? Since Libertariantards are clearly batsh*** crazy, you would only see a bell curve away from libertarianism. If you are a Paultard, just run out into traffic for the rest of us, okay? We don't need your idiocy here.

      May 7, 2012 at 4:25 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      "Sorry but conservatives beleive in something......You...not so much. You fall in the Liberal line....thats too bad."

      Are conservatives defined by religion or government views?

      May 7, 2012 at 4:38 pm |
    • Eric G

      I do not agree with your options. I am not a conservative or liberal. I am always right. Atheism is a byproduct of this fact.

      May 7, 2012 at 6:14 pm |
    • Northington

      @Eric G
      Always right? You mean like when you said the word "fifty" was a number and not a word? LOL

      May 7, 2012 at 10:06 pm |
  18. P3407

    What a bunch of crap. This administration has ignored the LGBT community for 3 1/2 years, until the election rolls around. I'm not gay, but anyone who is, if you think this administration is a friend of your, you are a grade A sucker.

    May 7, 2012 at 1:09 pm |
    • KWC

      Ignored the LGBT community until now? What about the getting rid of DODT?

      May 7, 2012 at 1:46 pm |
  19. 3rd Party Perspective

    After reading these comments for quite a while a couple things are ABUNDANTLY clear;

    1) atheists sure do have a lot of religious fervor, which is quite ironic. If you don't understand the irony then there's no hope for you.
    2) atheists are extremely hypocritical, often contradicting themselves in the same post.
    3) Christians are also hypocritical, but the majority of hypocritical posts are from atheists
    4) atheists comprises of about 95% of the angry, hateful posts.....while at the same time claiming that Christianity is so hateful and everything wrong with this world (see point 2 above).
    5) the belief blog is full of complete morons. People who sum up God by saying "magical sky fairy" and also claiming vast intellect at the same time do not deserve a response. These people have their mind already made up and are only looking for fights which helps stroke their ego.
    6) All humans are hypocritical and wrong at certains times in their life, amost all atheists like to refuse that they're responsible for any wrongdoing. Some Christians also do this but not nearly like the atheists.

    May 7, 2012 at 1:00 pm |
    • Huebert

      Your not a third party that is abundantly clear.

      May 7, 2012 at 1:08 pm |
    • Huebert

      *You're

      May 7, 2012 at 1:10 pm |
    • YeahRight

      Don't you just love all the judgements and lies in that posts. What is very clear is your prejudice towards atheists and view them in a negative light, doesn't mean the crap you posted was accurate. DUH!

      May 7, 2012 at 1:14 pm |
    • 3rd Party Perspective

      I criticize both sides but clearly criticize atheists more because they make up the majority of the comments and their statements/accusations are most often false. The occurrence of this happening from atheists vs. Christians is atleast 3:1 and my ridicule is therefore addressed accordingly. Sorry if you don't like it, but it's the truth.

      May 7, 2012 at 1:23 pm |
    • Huebert

      You didn't criticize Christians at all. you spouted a truism in number 3, "Christians are also hypocritical", and hoped that none of us would catch the fact that your entire post was nothing but atheist bashing.

      May 7, 2012 at 1:27 pm |
    • NOBOZO

      So true. Athiest and gays try soooooo hard to be noticed and accepted. Stop trying so hard any maybe someone will listen.

      May 7, 2012 at 1:31 pm |
    • 4th party perspective

      Damn you reply link!

      1.What’s really ironic is that atheists tend to know much more about religion than the theist involved.

      2.christians are extremely hypocritical, often contradicting themselves in the same post.

      3.atheists are also hypocritical, but the majority of hypocritical posts are from Christians.

      4.if you consider the truth to be angry and hateful then so be it.

      5.the belief blog is full of complete morons. People who call atheism a religion and also claim vast intellect at the same time do not deserve a response. These people have their mind already made up and are only looking for fights which helps stroke their ego.

      6.All humans are hypocritical and wrong at certain times in their life, almost all christians like to refuse that they're responsible for any wrongdoing. Some atheists also do this but not nearly like the christians.

      May 7, 2012 at 3:30 pm |
    • sam stone

      "Athiest and gays try soooooo hard to be noticed and accepted."

      As opposed to evangelicals?

      May 7, 2012 at 3:44 pm |
  20. Reality

    ONLY FOR THE NEW MEMBERS:

    "Abrahamics" believe that their god created all of us and of course that includes the g-ay members of the human race. Also, those who have studied ho-mo-se-xuality have determined that there is no choice involved therefore ga-ys are ga-y because god made them that way.

    To wit:

    o The Royal College of Psy-chiatrists stated in 2007:

    “ Despite almost a century of psy-choanalytic and psy-chological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heteros-exual or hom-ose-xual orientation. It would appear that s-exual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of ge-netic factors and the early ut-erine environment. Se-xual orientation is therefore not a choice.[60] "

    "Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab state in the abstract of their 2010 study, "The fe-tal brain develops during the intraut-erine period in the male direction through a direct action of tes-tosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hor-mone surge. In this way, our gender identi-ty (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and s-exual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender ident–ity or s-exual orientation."[8

    See also the Philadelphia Inquirer review “Gay Gene, Deconstructed”, 12/12/2011. Said review addresses the following “How do genes associated with ho-mose-xuality avoid being weeded out by Darwinian evolution?”

    Of course, those gays who belong to Abrahamic religions supposedly abide by the rules of no adu-ltery or for-nication allowed.

    And because of basic biology differences said mo-nogamous ventures should always be called same-se-x unions not same-s-ex marriages.

    From below, on top, backwards, forwards, from this side of the Moon and from the other side too, ga-y s-exual activity is still mutual mas-turbation caused by one or more complex s-exual differences. Some differences are visually obvious in for example the complex maleness of DeGeneres, Billy Jean King and Rosie O'Donnell.

    Yes, heteros-exuals practice many of the same "moves" but there is never a doubt who is the female and who is the male.

    May 7, 2012 at 12:57 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

      Revelation 20:10

      Amen.

      May 7, 2012 at 3:56 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      May the sinners suffer greatly
      Amen.

      May 7, 2012 at 4:39 pm |
    • Reality

      Thomas Jefferson omitted it (Book of Revelation) along with most of the Biblical canon, from the Jefferson Bible, and wrote that at one time, he "considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams." [31]

      Martin Luther once "found it an offensive piece of work" and John Calvin "had grave doubts about its value."[32]

      May 7, 2012 at 4:48 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.