Editor's note: Daniel A. Helminiak, who was ordained a priest in Rome, is a theologian, psychotherapist and author of “What the Bible Really Says about homosexuality" and books on contemporary spirituality. He is a professor of psychology at the University of West Georgia.
By Daniel A. Helminiak, Special to CNN
President Barack Obama’s support of same-sex marriage, like blood in the water, has conservative sharks circling for a kill. In a nation that touts separation of religion and government, religious-based arguments command this battle. Lurking beneath anti-gay forays, you inevitably find religion and, above all, the Bible.
We now face religious jingoism, the imposition of personal beliefs on the whole pluralistic society. Worse still, these beliefs are irrational, just a fiction of blind conviction. Nowhere does the Bible actually oppose homosexuality.
In the past 60 years, we have learned more about sex, by far, than in preceding millennia. Is it likely that an ancient people, who thought the male was the basic biological model and the world flat, understood homosexuality as we do today? Could they have even addressed the questions about homosexuality that we grapple with today? Of course not.
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Hard evidence supports this commonsensical expectation. Taken on its own terms, read in the original languages, placed back into its historical context, the Bible is ho-hum on homosexuality, unless – as with heterosexuality – injustice and abuse are involved.
That, in fact, was the case among the Sodomites (Genesis 19), whose experience is frequently cited by modern anti-gay critics. The Sodomites wanted to rape the visitors whom Lot, the one just man in the city, welcomed in hospitality for the night.
The Bible itself is lucid on the sin of Sodom: pride, lack of concern for the poor and needy (Ezekiel 16:48-49); hatred of strangers and cruelty to guests (Wisdom 19:13); arrogance (Sirach/Ecclesiaticus 16:8); evildoing, injustice, oppression of the widow and orphan (Isaiah 1:17); adultery (in those days, the use of another man’s property), and lying (Jeremiah 23:12).
But nowhere are same-sex acts named as the sin of Sodom. That intended gang rape only expressed the greater sin, condemned in the Bible from cover to cover: hatred, injustice, cruelty, lack of concern for others. Hence, Jesus says “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 19:19; Mark 12:31); and “By this will they know you are my disciples” (John 13:35).
How inverted these values have become! In the name of Jesus, evangelicals and Catholic bishops make sex the Christian litmus test and are willing to sacrifice the social safety net in return.
The longest biblical passage on male-male sex is Romans 1:26-27: "Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another."
The Greek term para physin has been translated unnatural; it should read atypical or unusual. In the technical sense, yes, the Stoic philosophers did use para physin to mean unnatural, but this term also had a widespread popular meaning. It is this latter meaning that informs Paul's writing. It carries no ethical condemnation.
Compare the passage on male-male sex to Romans 11:24. There, Paul applies the term para physin to God. God grafted the Gentiles into the Jewish people, a wild branch into a cultivated vine. Not your standard practice! An unusual thing to do — atypical, nothing more. The anti-gay "unnatural" hullabaloo rests on a mistranslation.
Besides, Paul used two other words to describe male-male sex: dishonorable (1:24, 26) and unseemly (1:27). But for Paul, neither carried ethical weight. In 2 Corinthians 6:8 and 11:21, Paul says that even he was held in dishonor — for preaching Christ. Clearly, these words merely indicate social disrepute, not truly unethical behavior.
In this passage Paul is referring to the ancient Jewish Law: Leviticus 18:22, the “abomination” of a man’s lying with another man. Paul sees male-male sex as an impurity, a taboo, uncleanness — in other words, “abomination.” Introducing this discussion in 1:24, he says so outright: "God gave them up … to impurity."
But Jesus taught lucidly that Jewish requirements for purity — varied cultural traditions — do not matter before God. What matters is purity of heart.
“It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles,” reads Matthew 15. “What comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this is what defiles. For out of the heart come evil intentions, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile.”
Or again, Jesus taught, “Everyone who looks at a women with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28). Jesus rejected the purity requirements of the Jewish Law.
In calling it unclean, Paul was not condemning male-male sex. He had terms to express condemnation. Before and after his section on sex, he used truly condemnatory terms: godless, evil, wicked or unjust, not to be done. But he never used ethical terms around that issue of sex.
As for marriage, again, the Bible is more liberal than we hear today. The Jewish patriarchs had many wives and concubines. David and Jonathan, Ruth and Naomi, and Daniel and the palace master were probably lovers.
The Bible’s Song of Songs is a paean to romantic love with no mention of children or a married couple. Jesus never mentioned same-sex behaviors, although he did heal the “servant” — pais, a Greek term for male lover — of the Roman Centurion.
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Paul discouraged marriage because he believed the world would soon end. Still, he encouraged people with sexual needs to marry, and he never linked sex and procreation.
Were God-given reason to prevail, rather than knee-jerk religion, we would not be having a heated debate over gay marriage. “Liberty and justice for all,” marvel at the diversity of creation, welcome for one another: these, alas, are true biblical values.
The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Daniel A. Helminiak.
You will do well to learn more about marriage like CQ. Marriage comes in different forms all over the globe! Check it out and stop spewing your ignorance over as like pig vomit.
what ignorance did i spout exactly?
In the US, marriage is a SECULAR legal contract between two people. The religious aspect is just a ritual that some people choose to participate in. Otherwise you would not be able to get married through a JOP.
If it were a religious idea then you would not have to go to a judge to get a divorce, you would go through a priest.
All I said is that we're more likely to be "naturally" polygamous as a species with marriage being decidedly unnatural, and against our innate urges. We're social and intelligent enough to reason out contractual relationships and the symbols (rings) to signal to others that we are in dedicated relationships because we realize that completely open $exual grounds would lead to a lot of compet.ition, which could lead to deaths.
Honey Badger Dont Care
The religious part comes from the time when everything was related to religion. The idea of separating church and state was very new when we opted to become a country of our own. It was a very enlightened idea.
looks like you need to read CQ's posts a little more carefully before you recruit him/her to be on your side.
Right Cq, just another way for the church to maintain control.
"15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners —of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen." – [Saint] Paul
there is no such thing as sin. that is a disgusting, self-destructive, self-loathing idea taught by christianity to make you feel guilt and fear.
1. How is it "trustworthy"?
2. How does this "deserve full acceptance"?
These are both your OPINIONS. Nothing more. Dont try to push your religion on others. You can quote from a book of fiction all you want, that will never be reason enough for it to be true.
Then there is no such thing as right v. wrong; ergo, there is no need for the legal system.
Man is free to do whatever he chooses.
Honey Badger – I was pointing out that Paul (who most Christians would consider 2nd only to Jesus in 'holiness' called himself the greatest sinner); therefore, the rest of us don't really have much room to call someone else a greater sinner than ourself.
Truth, do you have a response to yeahalright?
Non-believers contend this so called evidence about Jesus changing your life would have also happened if you explored Islam, Buddhism or many other religions, and it is really you who changed your life. I have never read any Christian refute this statement.
What do you say to all the Muslims who think Allah changed their lives, or to all the non-believers who say their lives improved when they unchained themselves from their religious delusions?
Since you claim to use logic that is what I am expecting.
I provided a response back on the last page. I typed a long explanation because I do think you bring up a good question, however I guess there was a word in there that made it not post and unfortunately I don't have another 30min to type the response again. There are countless google answers however.
The design of the Tabernacle of Moses is an abstraction of human brain functions, did u know that? Agape is the healthiest loving emotion to possess... Did u know that too? Intuition controls intellect too did u know this? Look literally reading a book of prophesy is just silly.
you should take some basic english and logic/reasoning classes. most of the time it's hard to understand what you're trying to say.
Agape, you mean like your mouth is when you breath?
"If God is, who is He? What is He like? How do I relate to Him? What is His will? Foollish questions if God isn't. But if He is I must know all I can about Him–that becomes my theology." – A.W. Tozer
no such thing as god.
I should take your word for it? =>
And your evidence is....?
If you are going to say that you can't see Him, I'm going to need more than that. Before people could "see" that the world was round, it wasn't flat. Before people "discovered" DNA, it still existed.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
– Carl Sagan
you don't have to prove non-existence. the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. prove i'm not god. by your "logic", since you cannot prove i'm not god, i must be. see how terrible your reasoning is here?
The preoccupation with naming a god is just mankind's simple way to deal with finding ourselves in a material world and at the same time, enjoying imagination, creativity and emotions, all of which defy logic and explanation. Hence "god", all over the world, is interpreted in many ways by many religions. Just discard the puppets and marionettes, and enjoy the spectacular mystery of being alive without having to give it names that you require others to acknowledge. And to hell with the fortune telling folks who tell me what will happen when I die. I will pass from this existence with a smile on my face, knowing I have had the courage to speak up and put an end to this religious nonsense. The Creative Energy of the Universe is having a good time right here, right now.
I'm shocked that you even ask as almost all mammals marry. They keep a mating group and try to keep other males out of it. In humans we have turned to leglislation to protect the mating group. However legal protections do not consti.tute the marriage. Your laws call it common law marriage
LOL. they get married? mating and getting married are completely different. you can't be this ignorant, can you?
male lions have s.ex with all females in the pride. is he married to all of them?
tigers don't form prides. they are solitary creatures. during their lifetimes, they may mate with all females in the area, but spend no time with them outside of having s.ex - are they married?
female house cats can have babies from several fathers in the same litter. they often have s.ex with a number of males - are they married?
you really need an education.
"hathiest"? I thought you better than name calling, Nii.
Since mating groups are natural, then...god approves of orgies.
atheists are the only ones that keep looking for articles about faith and Christianity...
that is what emotionally disturbed people do..
they are like flies around our food...:P
and then come with "diaries" coments! FOOL, FOOL, FOOL....everlasting...retardeds...pathetic...:P
That's because it's fun to argue the bible when you know so much and the believers know so little.
That's like wondering why all the research linking cancer to smoking isn't being done by Big Tobacco.
How very Christian, is that what Jesus called non-believers: pathetic retards?
'comments'. Retardeds is not a word. Just trying to help you with your first grade English class :)
religious and non-religious articles are put in the belief section. derp!
Marcio, sweetheart, you have left the safety of your little churches and campaigned against those who do no share your narrow view of life. It is your absolute right to believe whatever the heck you wish, but stay out of American politics.
We are a Republic, in which "Majority Rule" is not the order of the day. THAT concept is a Democracy, and definitely not what the founding fathers intended. You do not have the right to vote into law your narrow church-based theology. That stuff belongs inside your temple and nowhere else.
Our United States of America was founded on the principle that ALL men are created equal, with the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Your idea of happiness is different from mine, so deal with it, and stop dealing in it. You church types have held sway and been playground bullies for two thousand years (Holy Roman Empire started the scam), and the rest of us want our lives back. We will visit public places and make our rationale known. Strange as it may seem to you, you really don't own the streets of the belief Blog. Take your club and pick on someone else.
You're an embarrassment to Christianity with all your lies and judgement keep up the good work, you make our job so much easier. LMAO!
Tim: Follow. But. Follow only if ye be men of valour, for the entrance to this cave is guarded by a creature so foul, so cruel that no man yet has fought with it and lived. Bones of full fifty men lie strewn about its lair. So, brave knights, if you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further, for death awaits you all with nasty, big, pointy teeth.
King Arthur: What an eccentric performance.
what is it with gays and atheists they keep repeating the same thing over and over and over...(and over) again?
like shellfish. LOL Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law and set us free. we don't need to avoid that as the same thing with pork.
but I understand...is not convenience...is FOOLISHNESS that applyting their dirty mind, full of their corrupt "justice" think we will deny God and His Holy Scriptures..
like CNN and tis gay staff, anchors, taking bribery from LGBT dirty money....all to put up ridiculous articles like this nutjob above, pushing a point.
..have you guys seem the CNN take on balck church? stones, judgment and stones..and on the top of that, challenging what is sacred, applying their corrupted dirty political equality.
they say: "hey you! this commandment is not working anymore! we don't like it and is too out of fashion! lets GET rid of it!!
that is the way they think.
or atheists stating that the Bible says the world is flat (like all the other retarded talking points of atheists) LOL three thousand years before Galileo, Isiaah the prophet already referred to the world as "globe" and "sphere". The jewish people new the world was a globe thousands of years before Galileo....ahah
or th atheists, the most resentful, irrational and delusional samplles of human beings point to the passage when Satan show Jesus Christ, in a VISION all the world ("proof" that the world is flat! LOLaahahahaha)
can you guys believe it?
This people are so sinful and their minds are so dirty that they behave like 4 years old. Seriously. gays and atheists...they can't stand the Word of God. I would say some gays, many of them are not like that but atheists....pathetic.
..and we have to see CNN over and over again pushing to destroy, descredit, mock, ignore Christians and the Scriptures...
you will have to KILL us all.
get OVER IT
p.s.: and before you jump up and down of happiness for our killing, the BIBLE says the end of the days will be like that.
We WILL BE put to death and persecuted by you.
But He die for you as well. Nobody goes to heaven after death EXCEPT through Him.
no budhism, isla, the religion of the idol moon, no paganism, cults, etc nothing will be able to re-connect to God EXCEPT TROUGH JESUS CHRIST.
The Bible is perfect, confirmed by Science over and over again trhough the years and has no contradiction with so many authors from prophets, to tax collectors, kings, etc
The answers of Life is there. Do not listen to FLESH. resentment of atheists or disturbed emotions of those who want to force their lifestyle over us.
This Nation allow these kind of people have a voice. EXACTLY due the Christian foundation.
Imagine these bugs living in another Nation. One of those isla, hindu cults, etc...lol
P.S.; NONE OF YOUR INSULTS DOESNT "STICK" OHOHOH...you are FOOLS nothing more than that.
..guys, what about the slavery thing??
see?? (double team!) these guys are pathetic! ahahahahah 2×0
I didn't call you names, but do you really think I'm going to take you seriously when it's clear from your language skills you never made it out of elementary school? Seriously? Unless you have a minimum of a masters degree your opinion is worthless. You understand that right?
Can somebody put this through a stupid to english translator? I can't find it on google translater.
This is just as incoherent and nonsensical as the first time you posted it.
"NONE OF YOUR INSULTS DOESNT "STICK" " Double negative, so you're saying all of our insults "stick". OHOHOH!
People: don't feed the troll.
I am a pagan, you bigoted little fool. It's people like you that people like me dislike Christianity as we do. Christianity, as a faith, is beautiful (even though I disagree with it, I can get behind some of it's ideas). When people like *you* stop shoving their faith down the throats of everyone in earshot, maybe then can other faiths begin to build bridges *with* Christianity, instead of against it.
People like you scream, yell, and throw tantrums when this *secular* nation either doesn't pass laws that fall in line with, or pass laws that do not fall in line with, your faith.
"The Bible is perfect"
the bible supports slavery. jesus himself supports slavery. slavery is the most evil inst.itution ever man had ever inflicted on man. you would think god would have gotten that right. "thou shalt not own another human being. ever. period." but instead, god supports slavery. disgusting.
Does the asylum staff know you got loose again? You apparently keep chewing through your restraints.
"Seriously. gays and atheists...they can't stand the Word of God"
That's a lie. There are thousands of gay churches. There are also gay clergy and gay Christians. There are are also thousands of pastors, rabbli's, nuns that have stated that being gay as we know and understand it today is NOT a sin.
What is so hysterical about your lying posts is you can't even follow one of the basic ten commandments. What a hypocrite.
Robert, I do not deny a god or gods may exist, some people might even describe me as a deist. What is obvious is that all organized religions were made up by man.
I agree that you can not force someone to believe as you do. It is funny when Christians reply to me and say that is what I am doing. That is impossible. However through the political process you CAN deny civil rights based on your personal religious beliefs, and that is what I mean by imposing your religion on others, and that is morally wrong.
Are u ready to learn what the Bible really says by applying the scientific method? No? i thoughht so too! No hatheist is brave enough to dive into that pool of abstract psychology!
yes. please explain to me exactly which parts pass the scientific method. please be specific.
Most atheists have objectively read the bible. Objectively being the difference that allows us to see the truth. The bible is man's word. And it is so obvious.
Count me in Nii. Please give me the first verse you can think of that would pass the scientific method.
This will be interesting... There's not a snowball's chance in hell that The Babble can pass an investigation using the scientific method (especially given that most likely hell does not exist).
I have a Master of Science in Biotechnology. I'd love to hear what the bible says about the scientific method. I've read the bible and I use the scientific method daily. Educate me, please.
If u wud like to try then read the design for the Tabernacle. You will fall asleep a few times like Chemistry but when you finish compare it to human psychology.
Wait how does the construction of the tabernacle prove that the Bible makes it through the scientific method? How about the ark and the Flood just one book earlier? That doesn't pass the scientific method.
My sense of Right and Wrong is a BLAZE set into my heart by God Almighty. Your hurtful and mean interpretation of the Bible is a figment based on a bit of tissue paper.
Your bible is a made up book of fables and fairy tales. Poof!
@ Pyotr. Yes, that's what you bibbledy-book is, tissue paper. Excuse me, my nose is running, have to get the tissue box.
The faithful and faithless are hopelessly deadlocked. Unlike two religious factions, who disagree on who upholds God's true message/intention for mortals; this argument is even more difficult; One asks to let go of faith and see the world as it is, the other asks to give faith a try and live in submission of a deity that cannot be validated upon request. Indeed, these ideals cannot be more different.
God is going away. information, truth and the internet are killing God. the churches complain about not having anyone sitting in the pews on sundays - but they promote a medieval agenda. christianity and all the other religions are going to be extinct in a hundred years. so long...
I would agree with you, BootyFunk, that religion may fade out as it currently is. BUT, keep your eyes open..... lots of people need to cling to something. I just hope they cling to reason, peace, and harmony.
i'm hoping they try humanism. a great set of ethics to live by without the religious dogma.
Marriage is part of natural law! Natural law dictates that a male n female of the human specie marry. This is not a biblical hullaballoo with atheists on one side xtians on another. I am all up for gay rights but marriage is not a right but a privilege n u have to be worthy of it. Ask bee drones
True no procreating no marriage
"Marriage is part of natural law!"
wrong. how many animals do you see getting married? you're premise is bad. marriage is not natural but a social and legal construct.
get married in a church with church approval but without a gov't issued marriage license = not legally married
get married in a courthouse without church approval but with a gov't issued marriage license = legally married
marriage is a legally binding contract. you can add ritual and ceremony, but it's completely unnecessary.
should straight couples that can't have babies because either the man or woman is infertile be allowed to marry? they can't have babies after all.....
Hey Bama, so you're against marriages (straight ones) where one or both people are infertile, or too old to bear children, or choose not to have children?
Now why would I ask an insect? That's almost as silly as believing in a made up book.
Some species mate for life, but they're rare and I don't think our close primate relatives are amongst them. Polygamy amongst primates seems more "natural".
Old people can make babies people have been told they can't and do .my thing is if your relationship can't make a baby by chance no marriage man and man no chance
You're ducking Bama. 2 70 year olds are never going to make a baby, ever. A woman who's had a hysterectomy is never going to have a baby, ever. A man who's had his testes removed is never going to father a baby, ever. Should they or should they not be allowed to get married?
Please re frase you last post, this time in English. That may be hard considering where your from.
Bama, since you're so into judging others, how do you judge me that I don't have a gun rack in back of every truck I own?
Yeah but they could have at one time two men never ever ever ever
some men and women are born infertile. what about them?
hey emotionally disturbed activisits! DSM-IV is calling!
and what in the world Galileo's persecution by the church has anything to do with my comment?? LOL see? thanks for making my point FOOL (the Bible alls atheists FOOL) :P
"Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law and set us free"
no, jesus believed in slavery:
37 "Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them.
38 "Whether he comes in the second watch, or even in the third, and finds them so, blessed are those slaves.”
you are in a religious cult called christianity. cults are not healthy. leave the cult, think for youself.
I think you've mistaken the cnn forums for the program on which you keep your diary. That can't possibly be an attempt at communication in English, can it?
You keep proving your stupidity over and over and over and over.
Do you ever say anything different? Also, if you are going to keep copying and pasting, could you at least let a 6 year old write it? It would really improve the grammar and spelling. Thanks! :)
In this verse, the son of GOD says that he is going to come and wait on (serve) them.
So, he (the son of God) is going to act like their servant.
That's like a mom. She's the one in authority but, out of love, she serves her kids (who are lower than her).
I mean the Luke 12 reference.
You said, "what is it with gays and atheists they keep repeating the same thing over and over and over...(and over) again?"
Because believers keep repeating the same insanity over and over again.
You said, "LOL Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law and set us free."
whether or not your Jesus ever lived remains in dispute. Whether he was divine (if he ever existed) is a fairy tale.
You said, "but I understand...is not convenience...is FOOLISHNESS that applyting their dirty mind, full of their corrupt "justice" think we will deny God and His Holy Scriptures.."
Your imaginary friend is just that, imaginary. Unless you have some evidence to show that your god actually exists, he's no more likely than the Tooth Fairy.
You said, "but I understand...is not convenience...is FOOLISHNESS that applyting their dirty mind, full of their corrupt "justice" think we will deny God and His Holy Scriptures.."
Yes, and Harry Potter will defeat Lord Voldemort in the end. Get a fucking grip on reality.
You said, "But He die for you as well. Nobody goes to heaven after death EXCEPT through Him."
Blah, blah, blah. Just your fairy tale nonsense.
You said, "The Bible is perfect, confirmed by Science over and over again trhough the years and has no contradiction with so many authors from prophets, to tax collectors, kings, etc"
You really are full of shit, aren't you? Reading for comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it? May I suggest a 7th grade science class?
You said, "resentment of atheists or disturbed emotions of those who want to force their lifestyle over us."
Nobody is trying to force you to do something you don't want. You are free to not participate. Have some decency (I realize that may be a bit much to ask), and don't force your delusion on anyone else.
Religious freedom gives you the right to believe and worship as you see fit. Stupidity, no matter how moronic, isn't illegal. You don't have the right to expect anyone else to be equally dimwitted.
That was entertaining. And he thinks that atheists are crazy...
Don't feed this troll. He's very hungry for the attention.
bet: apparently this man feels he has the absolute truth. oh well. folks like him are why christianity is ridiculed
@Truth, I would love to hear your response to yeahalright. Non-believers contend this so called evidence about Jesus changing your life would have also happened if you explored Islam, Buddhism or many other religions, and it is really you who changed your life. I have never read any Christian refute this statement.
I am only using logic and expect the same from you.
Intellectuals do follow proof. On abstract things as well as tangible things. Most Atheists can do that but are atheists for personal reasons. The hatheists here seem to think abstract thought cannot apply to religion which is an illogical thought to say the least!
we don't? what do you call the scientific method? look that up. you'll be fascinated. and probably a little scared...
Apparently Booty, Nii has a thing for you because he seems to only have eyes for you up in here.
MMMM MAN LOVE
The ti tle of the article is: “My Take: What the Bible really says about ho mose xuality”
First of all, it doesn’t matter what YOUR opinion is on what the bible says. It speaks very plainly all by itself.
In the article he writes, “the Bible is ho-hum on ho mose xuality.” Really? Lets see.
New International Version (NIV)
13 “‘If a man has se xual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
While this may sound “ho-hum” to the author of this article it sounds more like a death threat to me. There is no way around the fact that the bible is full of hate and ignorance.
Wake up, don’t believe in fairy tales, live in the real world, and have a good life.
It is simply and blatantly all about control, nothing more.
christians often practice "christianity light." christians are often embarrassed about what it says in the bible. so they make excuses for it. this guy is a prefect example. the bible is very clear about killing h.omos.exuals. that book is disgusting.
It is about control on both sides. One side wants to not allow folks to call it marriage and the other side wants to call it marriage so that the other side will have to accept their lifestyles.
Yep, its all about control.
The Bible says all sin results in hell. Sin is an archery term meaning missing the perfect mark. If we aren't as perfect as God (no one is), we can't stand before God because he is holy. That's the whole point of the Bible. We don't deserve forgiveness. God paid the penalty of our sin through Jesus. That's why it's good news.
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
@Mark from Middle River
You are so far off the mark it's ridiculous.
The only reason that Daniel A. Helminiak tried to change what the Bible says about this issue is because he knows it is the only true AUTHORITY on this issue. That's why it's interesting to watch people attack it so passionately. They know, deep down they know.
It is statements like yours that just solidify your ignorance.
Why Voice, because I can see the desire for "control" in both sides?
Use reason ,my friend, things are never black and white with most if not issues if you objectively step out of your dogma and view both sides.
The passage you quoted is a MISTRANSLATION which is really what the article is all about. Quote all you want but be aware that what you are quoting is NOT an accurate translation of the original language. That FACT is what the article is all about. The continuation of a hateful church policy that is built on inaccurate translations serves neither your minor mountain storm god nor mankind..
sorry, mark, you really are way off the mark. atheists don't aren't looking for control - we want the religious to leave us alone and stay out of politics. if those 2 things could be accomplished, there'd be very little to argue about. we support christians (all religions) to be ignorant and worship an invisible friend in the sky - just don't try to make me do it.
"Wake up, don’t believe in fairy tales, live in the real world, and have a good life."
My point exactly! Don't believe thse fairies of the real wrld who seek to recruit you into their prides of mostly filth and degradation!
@ Voice of reason
Which is why you can't resist attacking that statement. You know, deep down you know.
If black is black and 1 plus 1 equals 2 and we both agree on it, there you have our control matters.
I cannot resist trying to help someone back to reality.
Voice of R at 1:50pm: “It is simply and blatantly all about control, nothing more.”
Bootyfunk at 2:02pm ” Atheists don't aren't looking for control – we want.....”
At 2:02pm, you just proved that it is all about “control” over others. Which is inherent in all of us good or bad. Its just being human, one side “wants” to be more a part of the Government and less of the other side. The other side “wants” them to be less a part of government and more folks like themselves a part.
Its all “control” ….
I was commenting on religion wanting to have control, nothing more.
MyTake, The Babble is your cult's rule book, no one else's! It does not apply to me. It does not apply to anyone who does not accept it. It does not apply to any of us who know it is bullsh!t. We do not need a 2,000+ year old work of fiction to advise us on what the law should be. All should be treated equally: all persons of age should be able to legally marry anyone they want to. Religious cults should not be compelled to conduct marriages outside their belief system, or even recognize them. Bottom Line: if you say something like "The law should be . . . because The Babble says so!" you are wrong!
>>>>"If black is black "
Just remembered a debate on another site. Are we Black, African American or Colored? Then again when some radicals hear that other Blacks are Republicans ... we are not allowed to Black anymore :)
So, math yes 1 plus 1 is 2 ... but is "Black" really always "Black"
Who knows :)
>>>"I was commenting on religion wanting to have control, nothing more."
Oh.. Forgive me for identifying the same faults on the Atheist side to find common ground.
Should I just ignore the faults from this point on? :)
I (a so-called "white" person) have never been comfortable with referring to any race by color, whether it be white, black, yellow, red, etc. I think it's more important to use the label the group being referred to prefers.
What the heck are you talking about? You are making no sense whatsoever. Slow down and make your point and allow me to respond please.
Voice of R – You wrote that you where commenting on Relgion wanting control and that is all you wished to speak of. My point to counter, from the middle ground, is that while you wished to just show the faults of one side, I felt that reason would require a objective and healthy analysis of both sides wanting control and that in the end that the desire for control is human.
I am beyond feeling sorry for those that believe. Religion (if you would educate yourself) was created for what and why? Have you read any history about religions before christianity? I'm not trying to sound like a snob, but have you, truly?
Hi Voice. Yes I have and after just finishing a a semester of World History and looking at issues by stepping outside and viewing all parties involved I see that control by reasons of Faith, racial or cultural superiority, down to simple greed for water rights or blood diamonds. In the end it is always been one group wanting control over another. It is being human and since those in Faith are also human it does not dismiss the negatives but does not make them stand out from other humans as well.
@ HotAirAce. You know, deep deep down you really know. I know you know because you have to attack and try to change the one thing that stands for truth. I also know you know because the Bible tells me so.
"I realized a while ago that trying to have a legitmative, intellectual conversation with the atheists is pointless. They regurgitate the same arguments over and over that have no intellectual depth whatsoever."
you're ridiculous. atheists follow proof. show an atheist evidence and you will change his mind. what would it take to change yours? we often have to repeat ourselves because intelligent debate falls on deaf ears when talking to the religious.
So you both are claiming that the problem with the other side .... is that they will not accept each others arguments?
Could it be because each side, especially on a blog such as this, has heard all of the arguments and folks who think themselves clever and influential go nuts because they can not accept this fact?
Wow, welcome folks to grownup debates and arguments.
bootydoo you got a finger up your butt
yep, the problem is, christianity is a religious cult, like any other. atheists follow the scientific method. we provide evidence for our claims, something christians can never do. we are willing to believe the religious - all they have to do is show proof. there is nothing that can tell a cult member his deity doesn't exist. see a difference? how do you debate someone that ignores evidence?
"Wow, welcome folks to grownup debates and arguments."
in what way is my argument not "grownup"? how can anyone express an opinion to you without seeming childlike in their arguments?
you have a p.enis up yours.
Not gay buddy I pitch only to women
What proof or evidence would you accept of God?
God could appear to everyone on earth. that'd do it.
Booty he stopped his close association with man after the fallen came.PS. Scientist say we have alien DNA look it up
Hi Booty. You can debate and argue but after a while while you are making the claim of “falling on deaf” ears the other side is saying the same thing. In such issues are Faith or Non-Faith, the Atheist declares that they want proof that there is a God and at the same time the Faithful are asking the Atheist for proof of the non-existence of God.
>>>”...in what way is my argument not "grownup"? how can anyone express an opinion to you without seeming childlike in their arguments?”
I guess at 1:57 pm, ...you answered that question. Don't “stoop” to their level when insulted or you will spend wasted time hurling insults at each other. Unless you feel that a insult wins an argument.
"Scientist say we have alien DNA look it up"
please site your source.
the difference is atheists aren't in a cult. what if you're cousin joined a cult down the street that said a pet llama was god - would you say that side really deserves to have their side taken seriously? they have no proof, but of course you have no proof that the llama isn't god. so does that make it so?
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
- Carl Sagan
you don't have to prove non-existence. the burden of proof is on the person making the claim.
Bootyfunk/CARL: How about 500 eyewitness who saw the resurrected Jesus??? (1Cor 15:6) sure easy to refute the testimony on 1 or 2 but 500????
the bible is a work of fiction. pulling "proof" from the bible is like pulling "proof" from the harry potter series. also, 500 witnesses said a magician in vegas made a tiger disappear - that make it true?
How about 500 eyewitness who saw the resurrected Jesus???
How do you know there were 500?
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.