Editor's note: Daniel A. Helminiak, who was ordained a priest in Rome, is a theologian, psychotherapist and author of “What the Bible Really Says about homosexuality" and books on contemporary spirituality. He is a professor of psychology at the University of West Georgia.
By Daniel A. Helminiak, Special to CNN
President Barack Obama’s support of same-sex marriage, like blood in the water, has conservative sharks circling for a kill. In a nation that touts separation of religion and government, religious-based arguments command this battle. Lurking beneath anti-gay forays, you inevitably find religion and, above all, the Bible.
We now face religious jingoism, the imposition of personal beliefs on the whole pluralistic society. Worse still, these beliefs are irrational, just a fiction of blind conviction. Nowhere does the Bible actually oppose homosexuality.
In the past 60 years, we have learned more about sex, by far, than in preceding millennia. Is it likely that an ancient people, who thought the male was the basic biological model and the world flat, understood homosexuality as we do today? Could they have even addressed the questions about homosexuality that we grapple with today? Of course not.
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Hard evidence supports this commonsensical expectation. Taken on its own terms, read in the original languages, placed back into its historical context, the Bible is ho-hum on homosexuality, unless – as with heterosexuality – injustice and abuse are involved.
That, in fact, was the case among the Sodomites (Genesis 19), whose experience is frequently cited by modern anti-gay critics. The Sodomites wanted to rape the visitors whom Lot, the one just man in the city, welcomed in hospitality for the night.
The Bible itself is lucid on the sin of Sodom: pride, lack of concern for the poor and needy (Ezekiel 16:48-49); hatred of strangers and cruelty to guests (Wisdom 19:13); arrogance (Sirach/Ecclesiaticus 16:8); evildoing, injustice, oppression of the widow and orphan (Isaiah 1:17); adultery (in those days, the use of another man’s property), and lying (Jeremiah 23:12).
But nowhere are same-sex acts named as the sin of Sodom. That intended gang rape only expressed the greater sin, condemned in the Bible from cover to cover: hatred, injustice, cruelty, lack of concern for others. Hence, Jesus says “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 19:19; Mark 12:31); and “By this will they know you are my disciples” (John 13:35).
How inverted these values have become! In the name of Jesus, evangelicals and Catholic bishops make sex the Christian litmus test and are willing to sacrifice the social safety net in return.
The longest biblical passage on male-male sex is Romans 1:26-27: "Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another."
The Greek term para physin has been translated unnatural; it should read atypical or unusual. In the technical sense, yes, the Stoic philosophers did use para physin to mean unnatural, but this term also had a widespread popular meaning. It is this latter meaning that informs Paul's writing. It carries no ethical condemnation.
Compare the passage on male-male sex to Romans 11:24. There, Paul applies the term para physin to God. God grafted the Gentiles into the Jewish people, a wild branch into a cultivated vine. Not your standard practice! An unusual thing to do — atypical, nothing more. The anti-gay "unnatural" hullabaloo rests on a mistranslation.
Besides, Paul used two other words to describe male-male sex: dishonorable (1:24, 26) and unseemly (1:27). But for Paul, neither carried ethical weight. In 2 Corinthians 6:8 and 11:21, Paul says that even he was held in dishonor — for preaching Christ. Clearly, these words merely indicate social disrepute, not truly unethical behavior.
In this passage Paul is referring to the ancient Jewish Law: Leviticus 18:22, the “abomination” of a man’s lying with another man. Paul sees male-male sex as an impurity, a taboo, uncleanness — in other words, “abomination.” Introducing this discussion in 1:24, he says so outright: "God gave them up … to impurity."
But Jesus taught lucidly that Jewish requirements for purity — varied cultural traditions — do not matter before God. What matters is purity of heart.
“It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles,” reads Matthew 15. “What comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this is what defiles. For out of the heart come evil intentions, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile.”
Or again, Jesus taught, “Everyone who looks at a women with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28). Jesus rejected the purity requirements of the Jewish Law.
In calling it unclean, Paul was not condemning male-male sex. He had terms to express condemnation. Before and after his section on sex, he used truly condemnatory terms: godless, evil, wicked or unjust, not to be done. But he never used ethical terms around that issue of sex.
As for marriage, again, the Bible is more liberal than we hear today. The Jewish patriarchs had many wives and concubines. David and Jonathan, Ruth and Naomi, and Daniel and the palace master were probably lovers.
The Bible’s Song of Songs is a paean to romantic love with no mention of children or a married couple. Jesus never mentioned same-sex behaviors, although he did heal the “servant” — pais, a Greek term for male lover — of the Roman Centurion.
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Paul discouraged marriage because he believed the world would soon end. Still, he encouraged people with sexual needs to marry, and he never linked sex and procreation.
Were God-given reason to prevail, rather than knee-jerk religion, we would not be having a heated debate over gay marriage. “Liberty and justice for all,” marvel at the diversity of creation, welcome for one another: these, alas, are true biblical values.
The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Daniel A. Helminiak.
How a person can really care how others stumulate themselves to orgasm puzzles me.
I figure that every possible way to achieve an orgasm has been explored millions of times by millions of humans.
if you can think of it, someone has done it – a lot.
Let's talk about Global Warming. Orgasms is not really a serious issue.
Equal civil rights is the issue. Gay couples are being denied these rights:
-–Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.
-–Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.
Estate Planning Benefits
-–Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.
-–Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
-–Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
-–Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse – that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.
-–Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
-–Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
-–Receiving public as-sistance benefits.
-–Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
-–Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
-–Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
-–Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.
-–Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
-–Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.
-–Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
-–Making burial or other final arrangements.
-–Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
-–Applying for joint foster care rights.
-–Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
-–Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.
-–Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."
-–Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.
-–Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.
-–Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
-–Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.
-–Other Legal Benefits and Protections
-–Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
-–Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
-–Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
-–Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
-–Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
-–Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.
Like you thought up all that nonsense all by your little wee wee of a mind? Don't be a liar now! Tell us the Gospel Truth for we want to know where your rubbage is being dumped from and by and for!
"Like you thought up all that nonsense all by your little wee wee of a mind? Don't be a liar now! "
Yo moron, the US Supreme Court is the one that stated marriage is a civil right when they ruled on the case on biracial marriage. So why don't you stop being so lazy and actually to some REAL research.
Is it the Civil Right for: a father to marry his child or step child, a sister to marry her sister, twins to marry each other, two women to marry two men, one man to marry two women, man to marry an Ape ?
"Is it the Civil Right for: a father to marry his child or step child, a sister to marry her sister, twins to marry each other, two women to marry two men, one man to marry two women, man to marry an Ape ?"
Duh! Children can't consent. All you're doing is showing your ignorance and stupidity on this subject.
Make the children 18 or 21 years old. You are trying to dodge the point. I really want to know where you draw the line if you were King. Instead you take pot shots because you are afraid your answer will expose you.
"Make the children 18 or 21 years old. You are trying to dodge the point. I really want to know where you draw the line if you were King. Instead you take pot shots because you are afraid your answer will expose you."
Look at the laws on incest idiot, being in a gay relationship isn't against the law. DUH! Only prejudice bigots use these lame arguments.
I am not talking about gay relationships I am addressing your constant "civil rights" cut and paste job. You again dodge this time with incest claims. Based on your actual response (even though it was just a dodge) civil rights do not apply equally. You claim they do yet they do not. Current law applies on an equal basis to all men and women that wish to marry. Certain groups are excluded and are denied what you call civil rights. Well step up and answer the question.
I know you cannot answer it because it will expose at a minimum that you agree with only allowing certain adults to marry. Tell me again how is a step daughter and daughter incest if they are not biologicaly related? Please make life easy and just admit you draw lines about who can and cannot marry
I didn't get home from work until after 6 pm, and I don't post from my computer at work, so any posts made before 6 are not mine. Really, idiot troll, can you not come up with an original moniker?
Did we not all desend from the same moniker and still have 99% of that DNA?
There is a little Tom Tom in all of us ! Now, get that moniker off my back so I can quote some bible verses.
I dont blame you guys for being mad, hateful, and angry. HeII, what can you expect when nobody in the real world takes you seriously and you're basically a laughing stock. These forums are the only place you losers feel like you have the slightest bit of power. Hahahahaha.
Do you have a point? Seriously, you just make ridiculous statements that are childish and nonsense. Say something intelligent or get back in your trailer.
pot meet kettle, kettle meet pot.
Sorry to tell you but there is a difference between sense and nonsense.
Do you believe if you pray to Jesus you will get to go to heaven ?
it's meant for the original poster.
I apologize, we're getting to accustomed to being attacked by everyone.
Hey look it! If you are going to post and claim something and someone else asks you a question, why don't you have the common courtesy to answer it?
Religion offers simplistic certainty for the simple minded, which for you, is probably your best bet for coping with the complexities of life.
Voice of Reason
Sense and con-sense are 2 cents towards a nickel's worth of sensualism according to most dipstickers of smaeness relishing their doggies in filthiness and crud! Good gosh I just love the hating of self-seeking devining rods of the dipstick varieties! Get them Satan and show them your balls are bigger and more pronounced then the common dipstickers are!
@A Serpent's Thought
I asked you before old man, did you fall-off?
How does a guy who admits to having r@ped a child get to call those who actually engage in s3x with people who CONSENT names?
Root post by 'Lmao!!' contains instances of the ad hominem fallacy, the circ-umstantial ad hominem fallacy, and the Willed Ignorance fallacy.
@ Voice of Reason
Who you calling Old? I never told you my age! Since I never did, let me tell you a lil something! Come to papa you trolling pervert and let me stick my shoe where your perverts due! How's them words of Hate gonna be for your ass's infidels working out?
A laughingstock? Because we don't believe in imaginary friends? Really?
I...*think* Serpent might be mad, but it's hard to tell when his phrasing is still so jacked up on ketamine.
If my "hate" being against s.e.x.u.a.l perverts is being cannonized as beng "mad" then, I must be mad,,,,,, !!!!!!!! -)-->
Where are the perverts now, Serpent?
@ sam I think you're right. Look at all the exclamation points. But I don't know what "cannonized" means. Does Serpent think we are making him a saint?
"My" perverts? They must have all gone a plunging away in the dipstick maughty nighties. They do tend to kum and go that way! Dirty little dipsticks should all be put in a blender,,,, LOL
@ Bet 2 ouncer!
I'll show you my 13lber if you show me your 2 ouncer! Light the fuses all & Cannonbaks away!
Why do I hate gays? Why not? Better to hate gays then to say you love their dipstck agendas which I just can't get through to my teling my sperm cells that their fellows are going up the wrong holes and the wrong gender! "If only for a brain." says the one sperm cell to all the others going up the wrong hole!
Please try to speak english. This incoherent babbling makes no sense at all.
Atheists are pretty much the scu.m of the earth, that was my prior opinion from the ones I know in real life and the comments only reinforce that viewpoint.
Why is that? Is it because we challenge you to think?
Is that because they dont like being told they will burn in hell for not believing as you do ?
I think atheists are pretty smart.
I think that atheist are much more likely to have read the Bible – cover to cover – than Christians.
I think atheists are more likely to have read about the archaeologial, literary, and cultural history of the middle east than Christians.
I think that atheists are more intelligent than Christians if you exclude Jesuits from the calculation.
It is easy to go along. It is challenging to swim against the stream.
John, you are just another idiot that posts and doesn't respond. You know why? Because you're an idiot with no answers, no brains and no manners!
John just summed up how I feel about christians, except that christians are usually much dumber than atheists... so..
Root post by John is an instance of the ad hominem fallacy.
Funny how easily you hate just because you're challenged to think about what you believe in rather than just regurgitating what you hear from a pulpit. Doesn't your bible preach love and all that? No, it teaches hate and murder.
The best part is that John thinks he can tell which posters are atheists when they don't even say they are.
No talking donkey or serpent it was a ventriloquist parrot that there its voice. Now the whole world is damned kill all parrots they're the devil in drag
Threw its voice predictive text messed the whole damn joke up
Google First Scandal.
Specal message to JungleBoo. No one but JungleBoo is authorized to read any sentence below this one.
Jungleboo, we are kindred spirits at least in one way. On my long journey from the very disturbing Lakeview Baptist Church in Fort Worth Texas to the tranquilitiy of atheism, I went through a Gnostic phase. I read some really good histories of the Gnostics by Elaine Pagels (a jewel of a writer and smart as a whip). I read about the Nag Hammadi scrolls. I saw ancient Alchemy as an expression of the raw Gnostic impulse. I saw 19th Century Spiritualism as a revival of the Gnostic spirit. I read about Emmanuel Swedenborg. I saw modern 'psychics' as a modern manifestation of the ancient Gnostic impulse. I saw modern Pagans and Wiccans as modern-day Gnostics. It is a spiritual tradition as far above the base speculations of Christian theologians as Gold is superior to Lead.
Good luck to you. This is a cold world for spiritual people to live in.
I am jungleboo and no other. The name is a play on Rudyard Kipling's Jungle Book. Thanks for the authors names. I will look into them. Please add Christopher Hitchens to the mix. Delightful atheist, very funny, may he rest in peace.
Several of my posts to you have gotten lost, El Flaco, and they contained not a single naughty letter of the alphabet. Cheers to you. Dream beautifully.
I read El Flaco's entire post here.
CNN's dirty word and offensive phrase filters delete posts for bizarre reasons.
I once tried to post a comment that Mrs. Gingrich graduated "Magna Kum Laude" and I discovered that Kum had to be misspelled to get past the filters.
J. W., I forbade you to read my post. Yet, you did, in defiance of my order.
I therefore sentence you to go to the public library, where you will check out a book that you know you SHOULD read but you really don't WANT to read it but you must read it anyway. It will make you a better person. That is your sentence.
atheists sure are a miserable bunch to be around. Think I'll pass on all their negativity and anger. Somehow the ones on this blog are even more angry than the ones I know in real life!! LMAO hahahaha poor kids.
What you fail to grasp, kind sir, is that a sleeping giant has been awakened. And he is not too happy with the status quo. The religious nuts are finished with their two thousand years of persecution. It is simply a matter of time before you are viewed as a blast from the past. Humanity will be the better for it. So sorry to have tread on your toes, but you really should keep them in your shoe.
Pot meet kettle, kettle meet pot. That log in your eye is huge.
When you can't answer the question, attack the character of the person asking. That's the religious way of doing things.
Please provide proof that you are a human, otherwise i will assume that you're not. Since you claim to be human the proof is on you to support this with indisputable evidence. If the evidence you provide me with is insufficient then I will ridicule you because it helps my self esteem. Anything short of you reaching out of the computer screen and showing your face directly to me will prove to me that you are not actually human.
TROLL ALERT – this poster keeps posting the same thing over and over again. Don't bother responding.
Not an atheist but you stupid
I'm not a troll, I'd like a serious answer to the question. I'm trying to prove a point and atheists won't answer because it shows the ridiculousness and hypocrisy of their claims.
It makes no difference to anyone what you assume. feel free to imagine anything you want. Just don't try turning your assumptions into law.
Let's get it on! Althoughh I am a Christian my tendencies against the commonn atheists goes with little fanfair! I do have a camera on my puter but never used it! Is there a place on the net where we can see one eye to eye? I would love to see faces rather then just the written words of puke! Even my words do wreak of it! Let me know where we can converse eye to eye Ok?
So I can't prove it. State your point to this non-human.
OK, here's your answer.
1. Fly to El Paso, Texas and I will meet you at the airport, shake your hand, and show you my driver's license. If you want to pay for it, we'll go to a physician who can examine me and express an opinion on my nature.
2. If you could also arrange for God to meet us at the airport, then you will have proved to me that there is a God and I will have proved to you that I am human.
It's very simple to answer this question. We are members of the family of ho monids. A very simple DNA sequencing of any person here would be PROOF, not just evidence of being human.
If you don't know the point then I feel bad for you.
Please provide proof of this DNA sequencing since it's so simple. I don't want a website link either, I want tangible proof. Btw, I'm still waiting for you to prove to me that you're human.
You're no fun.
Please Answer... the point I think you are trying to make (and are failing to make) is that no one can prove they are human over this computer network so why should we expect proof of god? The simple difference is that we all know humans exist – we have seen them, we know how they work, we each are one ourselves. Thus, it is not much of a logical leap to believe these words are being typed by a human. This is not the case for Gods – we have never seen one, we have no idea how they might work, we don't know if they exist. Thus, there is no comparable basis for assuming that there is one. If we saw gods every day, your argument might make sense, but in fact none of us has ever seen one.
Wow! I guess I am busted. I am not really a human. I am a dog who occasionally uses my masters iPad when he is not using it. I feel compelled to post on these matters ever since a Christian told me dogs don't get to go to heaven.
Who do you think is responding to your silly question, talking snakes?
Why don't you go ahead and make your point PleaseAnswer.. Let's have a look at that stupid thing.. Whip it on out there, coward.
What is wrong with you people? Regardless of your belief show some respect and decency for your fellow human beings. You all say the most ridiculous remakrs and you think you're somehow intelligent or posess knowledge. The behavior is disgusting, if there is a heII then all you sh.itheads certainly deserve to be in it.
And before you accuse, no I'm not christian.
Shitheads?!? That is disgusting!
Better than pole-barn perverts or dipstick-hims! :-)
"The behavior is disgusting"
This is a great example of prejudice not based on any real facts. LOL! he American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
I'm not even referencing the article, I'm referring to the ridiculous comments as disgusting. FAIL.
Hey CNN why are not putting my comments in the reply message when i speak my mind what are you scared of?
not the only one bro!!
Because your opinion is stupid.
The moderators of this blog have set up a secret forbidden word filter which unfortunately not only will delete or put your comment in the dreaded "waiting for moderation" category but also will do the same to words having fragments of these words. For example, "t-it" is in the set but the filter will also pick up words like Hitt-ite, t-itle, beati-tude, practi-tioner and const-tution. Then there are words like "an-al" thereby flagging words like an-alysis and "c-um" flagging acc-umulate or doc-ument. And there is also "r-a-pe", “a-pe” and “gra-pe”, "s-ex", and "hom-ose-xual". You would think that the moderators would have corrected this by now considering the number of times this has been commented on but they have not. To be safe, I typically add hyphens in any word that said filter might judge "of-fensive".
• More than one web address will also activate “waiting for moderation”. Make sure the web address does not have any forbidden word or fragment.
Two of the most filtered words are those containing the fragments "t-it" and "c-um". To quickly check your comments for these fragments, click on "Edit" on the Tool Bar and then "Find" on the menu. Add a fragment (without hyphens) one at a time in the "Find" slot and the offending fragment will be highlighted in your comments before you hit the Post button. Hyphenate the fragment(s) and then hit Post. And remember more than one full web address will also gain a "Waiting for Moderation".
And said moderators still have not solved the chronological placement of comments once the number of comments gets above about 100. They recently have taken to dividing the comments in batches of 50 or so, for some strange reason. Maybe they did this to solve the chronology problem only to make comment reviews beyond the tedious.
“Raison's Filter Fiber© (joking about the copyright)
1. Here's my latest list – this seems like a good spot to set this down, as nobody's posting much on this thread.....
bad letter combinations / words to avoid if you want to post that wonderful argument:
Many, if not most are buried within other words, but I am not shooting for the perfect list, so use your imagination and add any words I have missed as a comment (no one has done this yet)
– I found some but forgot to write them down. (shrugs).
c-um.........as in doc-ument, accu-mulate, etc.
sp-ic........as in disp-icable (look out Sylvester the cat!)
ho-mo...whether ho-mo sapiens or ho-mose-xual, etc.
t-it.........const-itution, att-itude, ent-ities, etc.
tw-at.....as in wristw-atch, (an unexpected one)
va-g....as in extrava-gant, va-gina, va-grant
ar-se....yet "ass" is not filtered!
jacka-ss...but ass is fine lol
p-is.....as in pi-stol, lapi-s, pi-ssed, etc.
o ficti-tious, repeti-tion, competi-tion.
There are more, so do not assume that this is complete.
To the CNN MODERATOR, bet it feels really good to know you are the pawn to the next Hitler!!
As slow as this blog loads and lack of being able to login and a word filter that is Draconian, I think CNN has us running on the last remaining Commodore 64 connected to the internet.
Dear Helpful, You should be nominated for a Posty Award for that one. You made me laugh!
Mike...you dumbass. There are no moderators on these boards. And, by mentioning Hitler, you have invoked Godwin's Law, and you are banned.
lol @ Mark
If it is to survive, Christianity has to detach itself from the Bible. That book is a compilation of primitive thought that we now know to be nonsense. There is no Yahweh, no Christ, no Satan. Jesus lived and died. His bones are under some parking lot in Jeruselem. Christians must walk away from all that nonsense.
BUT, the teachings of the Church are Golden. Be a good person. Treat others as you would like to be treated. Help the old, the young, the weak, the sick, the feeble, the pregnant, the dying, and the unlucky. Strive to be a better person today than you were yesterday. Do not overvalue money and expensive consumer goods. Spend time loving and helping each other.
Isn't it ironic that so many on the extreme right-wing want to pull the rug out from under the aged and infirmed, yet claim to be so christian?
This is a new thought to me, El Flaco. It is a possibility that Christianity in its original gnostic form is the belief system that should "rise from the dead" and replace the cruel and inhuman Biblical tradition, both old and new testaments. Could Christians do that? Could they actually join together and toss the decrepit scriptures, and hold fast to the basic tenets of Christianity that make it special? It is a good idea.
Thanks, El Flaco. It is nice to have a little affirmation. I am enjoying the mosh pit here. Organized religion is about as necessary for a spiritual experience as a fancy bed is necessary for good s ex.
Aren't you contradicting yourself? These beliefs and messages taught by the church are taken from the scriptures and teachings of Jesus which are in the Bible.
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter (Isaiah 5:20)
"The animals were happy as they had never conceived it possible to be. Every mouthful of food was an acute positive pleasure, now that it was truly their own food, produced by themselves and for themselves, not doled out to them by a grudging master."
– George Orwell, Animal Farm, Ch. 3
I need sugar
Like slavery, racism, bans on interracial marriage and same gender relationships. Christianity has been switching the sweet for bitter for a long time, it's good to see you making changes, no matter how slow it is.
Yes, indeed, Florence. You stalk the world claiming to be "good", when in factor you pass judgement when it is not your place to do so. Keep your religion where it belongs – IN YOUR MIND – and leave everyone else to their own pursuit of happiness. If you wish to mount a criminal case in court against someone who has harmed you physically or financially, do so. This is not the case so far, right?
Yeah I agree, woe to those putting saying that something good (the love between two consenting people and equality that those people should be able to share) is evil. I agree.
BamaDaniel, do you root for the tide or the other team?
You hush up and get back to rehearsal, Florence!
Depends on who has best chance at championship when the iron bowl is played FL. St. Fan
'Nols had a heck of a recruiting class.
Yeah but I'm liking nic he's recruiting heavy here
Quote it all you want, the bible is a man made book used to control the weak minded.
In this article we can have a clear example of a CORRUPTED MIND! "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil,
who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter" said the Lord God. (Is. 5:20)
Anyone interested in the historical evolution of God would point out here that God said that over 2500 years ago,.If you want to get an idea of how bizarre (to the present culture) good and evil were at that time, all you have to do is read Leviticus. God certainly had some STRANGE ideas way back then.
"In this article we can have a clear example of a CORRUPTED MIND! "
Nah, the people who are using the bible to justify their prejudice and bigotry towards gays are the ones that have a corrupt mind especially since the experts have shown that being gay is normal. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
Excessive capslock and a bible quote always make it so, right? You forgot to ADD A BUNCH OF EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!!!! Srs bsns.
This is hogwash theology. So many things are wrong here, but he biggest one screaming out is the following statement:
David and Jonathan, Ruth and Naomi, and Daniel and the palace master were probably love rs.
He has attracted love between people to be se xu al love. That is just plain ludicrous.
David and Jonathan loved each other like Brothers.
Ruth and Naomi loved each other like Mother and Daughter.
Daniel was a Eun uch, his maleness taken from him as a boy. There is no indication of any type of se xu al relationship between Daniel and the Emperor. Remember these Emperors had as many as 2000 concubines, and even if Daniel had se xu al interactions with the Emperor this would have been against his will, just as turning him into a Eun uch would have been against his will.
But it is lies like this that are so misleading to those who don't know the whole story.
The bible is rehashed myth, Menno
Serpents could speak like parrots before their tongues were split
"But it is lies like this that are so misleading to those who don't know the whole story."
That is the very point with all the scriptures that people use to condemn gays.
Your evidence for that is based on German intellectualism from the 1890's that has been disproven by modern archaeology. The JDEP theory is dead.
Try reading National Geographic and you will see this.
Did you hear me condemn anybody here? I was pointing out false statements made by the author.
"Did you hear me condemn anybody here? I was pointing out false statements made by the author"
And I am pointing out the false statements made by Christians about gays.
Menno, despite your stupidity, even you ought to be able to figure out that the bible is pure myth.. Try reading it..
Why to people like yourself feel the need to stoop to the level of name calling when you have a debate with somebody?
And Jesus was not mythology.
Hahaha, gotta love the atheist trolls abound.....quite comical really.
Atheists; please provide proof that you are a human, otherwise i will assume that you're not. Since you claim to be human the proof is on you to support this with indisputable evidence. If the evidence you provide me with is insufficient then I will ridicule you because it helps my self esteem. Anything short of you reaching out of the computer screen and showing your face directly to me will prove to me that you are not actually human.
Oh look, it's another fvcking moron who believes in invisible body parts (soul) and invisible diseases (sin) because a rib-woman talked with a snake and committed wrong before she knew she could even do wrong and so bratty little sh!t god had to sacrifice himself to himself to appease himself so that he doesn't torture more than 99% of his creation in his own private torture pit..
I think you might have misspelled your name, didn't you mean "So Oblivious"?
S.O. you are grasping at straws in an effort to appear funny or threatening. You are neither.
Real nice sound bites of the godless ya got there yet, you are still not convinced that there is no God.
If you are going to attack Eve stay within the facts we know. Eve said “you must not eat fruit from that tree, you must not touch it, or you will die”. There are enough issues with the Bible so if you want to remain intellectually honest at least change this sound bite. Your tongue is betraying your true heart. Hiss hiss
Sin is not invisible it is very visible. Sin is an offense against God. If you do not believe in God you simply call say adultery something other than sin. By the way what do the godless call adultery? Is it something good ?
God did not sacrifice himself to himself. Sin is death (you will die presently in relationship with God when you reject God) so God took our sin away so we can have a relationship with the living God. We serve a Holy God and Christ is the perfect Lamb that covers our sin.
In the beginning God separated the light from the darkness. Both were there in the beginning and both will always be there. God does not torture you in that darkness you have chosen darkness over light. Are you suggesting that God take away your freedom of choice?
"Eve said “you must not eat fruit from that tree, you must not touch it, or you will die”."
Considering that Adam and Eve couldn't write and the bible was written so long afterwards you don't have a clue if she really said that or not do you. LOL! It's all made up crap. LMAO!
If there is this one Hebrew God, a Holy God that made Adam and Eve then all we know about God is what the Bible says. God gave this account to Moses just as Jesus gave an account to Saul of Tarsus and these two men put to writting what was said..
If you want to argue alternatives you need to tell me what alternative you have in mind. In the meantime this Hebrew God is the only God I have had a personal encounter with. Asside from that encounter I would be agnostic based on what can be proven.
'does not follow' fallacy in your very first sentence.
great job, troll!
Where does it say, specifically, that Jesus taught anything to Paul?
Is God supposedly posting texts?
Eve didn't know right from wrong before she ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; thus, she did not know it was wrong to "disobey" and eat the fruit..
Sin is invisible.. It doesn't show up on any scans or x-ray.. Stupid christian.
God sacrificed himself to himself when Jesus (fully god and fully man) died to make his daddy happy and to get himself more glory than any other being.
I'm suggesting that god shouldn't make any part of his creation suffer eternally.. That's the point of hell, dumbazz, nobody wants to go there, but your god makes them go..
Really, do you have a clue what your book teaches, or do you just slap your hands over the keyboard and hope something intelligible comes out in the end?
With respect to Helminiak look at 4th from the bottom paragraph:
“The Jewish patriarchs had many wives and concubines. David and Jonathan, Ruth and Naomi, and Daniel and the palace master were probably lovers.”
This gives away the authors agenda. Most people approach the Bible with an agenda and this guy is no different. Now, do you actually believe for a moment that the writers of the Old Testament would have given honor to ho-mo$exual relations suggested? These main characters also are recorded in other Hebrew text, all with honorable mention only. David was the type of King the Jews were waiting for when Christ showed up.
A little further up he says:
“Or again, Jesus taught, “Everyone who looks at a women with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28). Jesus rejected the purity requirements of the Jewish Law.”
=>what? Jesus was making it clear that sin is more than just the physical act it is about the condition of the HEART. Jesus was not rejecting purity he was stepping up the law to a spiritual level. Jesus already said no one is good but God alone.
If the Bible is wrong on hom-o$exuality then it is wrong on sin as this was just another sin of no greater or lesser value than any other sin. If there is no sin there is no need for Jesus, God or the Bible.
“Where does it say, specifically, that Jesus taught anything to Paul?”
=>Ephesians 3:4 “…understand my insight into the mystery of Christ …has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles” . Here we have Paul receiving insight by revelation. Acts 9:5 “I am Jesus ….you will be told what to do”. Paul was 3 days blinded and fasting after this event. Acts 9:15 “This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name…” Jesus was directing Paul in establishing the church. Acts 18:10 “for I am with you” This is a presence within Paul on a regular basis. Acts 22:14 “God has chosen you to know his will and see the Righteous One and hear the words from his mouth” This was Ananias telling Paul what his mission was at the time of Sauls conversion. Acts has several more points where Jesus is speaking to Paul then in Acts 26:16 we have ‘I have appeared to you to appoint you a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you.”
You said again "Eve didn't know right from wrong before she ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; thus, she did not know it was wrong to "disobey" and eat the fruit.." Hello mental block anyone? I thought you were a minister?
=>Eve said “you must not eat fruit from that tree, you must not touch it, or you will die”. Translation = Eve knew
If you wish to argue that she did not know the full consequenses of what it means to die you are adding to the story (your creator says don't do that stands by itself). Check out momoya who knows the full consequenses of rejecting God but, you are going to do it anyway. Is your excuse you did not really really know because a smart God would have washed your mouth out with soap and rubbed your face in hot coals everytime you spit in his face. That is the God you look for?
Simply put, Evangelical Christians and Roman Catholic Bishops are more concerned with Old Testament views on the subject and Pauline interpretations than in Jesus' words and teachings. Jesus attempted to teach a new path. Paul fell back on his Pharisaic learning to bring a new version of Mosaic Judaism into being, with the imprimatur of an illiterate fisherman (Peter), as opposed to the more literate family of Jesus (James, John, Jude, Mary, Salome, Martha) and their direct transmissions of Jesus teachings.
I agree completely. They are followers of Paul, not followers of Jesus. Paultians, they should be called.
You've never heard of the Paulines? I wonder how the church beat christ into them?
This guys is nuts!
You are what you eat.
Why? Where does your own scholarly work lead?
Truth, do you have a response to yeahalright?
Non-believers contend this so called evidence about Jesus changing your life would have also happened if you explored Islam, Buddhism or many other religions, and it is really you who changed your life. I have never seen any Christian refute this statement.
What do you say to all the Muslims who think Allah changed their lives, or to all the non-believers who say their lives improved when they unchained themselves from their religious delusions?
Since you claim your beliefs are based on logic, that is what I am expecting, logic.
I've provided two responses (both of which were the same reply) so I'm not sure why you keep posting the exact same thing. Go search the previous pages if you'd like to see my response, otherwise feel free to keep trolling.
You must have a really substandard job Truth if you can spend all day on the internet.
@Truth, your only comment that came through was that it was a good question you had asked yourself. I thought you would have a logical answer.
Yeah... about that...
Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
So yeah the bible is very anti-gay... and should be burned.
I'm all for viewing the bible for what it is: a book of recycled and revised myths, but I'm not for burning it.. We need them around to remind us (in a few years) how absolutely stupid we were when it came to fairy tales being brainwashed in children's tender minds–child abuse.
the bible should be studied like an other mythological book. it should not be taken seriously.
These verses applied to the priests in the tribe of Levi that were to be pure. It is not anti-gay as the same would happen to an unmarried woman that was not pure.
The Bible cannot be taken apart as it is the whole word of God. The Word of God taken as written does not say gays are an abomination it says sin (of all sorts) is an abomination.
You are not a practicing Levite or a Christian so why are you so concerned about sin? If you deny God there is no sin in your mind relative to orientation. There are those who believe in God and there are the godless. You are doing and saying what the godless say and do.
The army in day of Custer scalped indians. Should we burn the Army Code of Warfare books currently in use ?
Booty talking birds they exist talking donkey might have evolved to a bird
Do you suggest we ignore the entire side of our existence that is not in the material that cannot be discovered or evaluated with todays scientiific tools?
We actually have the Holy Spirit that guids Christians to this day. A myth is never living and unlike the mythical gods no one has seen God as God is no manmade like the others.
Richard, you're the one that's going to fry if you don't repent, ask Jesus for forgiveness, then sin no more. To help you, I'd read Romans 1:18-28 before you get too conditioned to your conditioning.
Child abuse you say? Santa Claus is not a religous divinity? Easter bunny is not as well! Tooth fairies be damned! Such things are either heathen or pagan issues and should all be stricken from reality! Quit lying to your kids for God's sake! Please quit your lying ways to children and own up to it by not doing such ilk especially to your child(ren)!
"Richard, you're the one that's going to fry if you don't repent, ask Jesus for forgiveness, then sin no more. To help you, I'd read Romans 1:18-28 before you get too conditioned to your conditioning."
Really worshiping a pagan god using sex is a conditioning and they would go into trances too. LMAO!
That's "abomination" because it's ritually impure, like the shellfish. The priests had a thing against women's periods too, for the same reason. If you're a gentile Christian, and don't follow any of the Jewish dietary laws, then this doesn't apply to you either. Choosing to follow it regardless would be cherry picking, and one can only wonder why anyone would want to label people sinners if they are not required to.
Yes, child abuse, like what you did to your little brother.
@serpent "Santa Claus is not a religous divinity? Easter bunny is not as well! Tooth fairies be damned! "
Religious divinities are just as real as any of the imaginary creatures you mentioned.
Yes, I believe that is exactly what booty is saying. There is no "holy spirit". It's a made up fairy tale.
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