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Your Take: Rebuttals to rethinking the Bible on homosexuality
What does the Bible really say about homosexuality? Readers responded to a professor's views on the issue.
May 17th, 2012
02:10 PM ET

Your Take: Rebuttals to rethinking the Bible on homosexuality

The Bible clearly condemns homosexuality - and, by extension, same-sex marriage - right?

A guest "My Take" post we ran this week from a college psychology professor who has a background in religion (he was ordained a Roman Catholic priest, for instance) challenged that conventional wisdom.

The professor, Daniel A. Helminiak, argues that foes of same-sex marriage have assigned modern, ethics-laden meanings to biblical passages on homosexuality to make it seem like the Bible unequivocally condemns it. In fact, Helminiak proposes, the original meanings of such passages about gays are at the very least ambiguous.

The piece has generated an avalanche of response: 10,000 Facebook shares, 6,000 comments, 200 tweets and a couple of blog posts.  Giving the other side its say, here's a rebuttal roundup of critical reactions from across the Internet:

Kevin DeYoung, a conservative Christian blogger, calls Helminiak's piece "amazing for including so many bad arguments in so little space." DeYoung, who leads a Reformed Church in Michigan, challenges Helminiak's argument that the biblical tale of Sodom and Gomorrah doesn't condemn homosexuality per se.

"Jude 7 states that Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities 'indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire,' " DeYoung writes.

"Even the NRSV, translation of choice for the mainline (and the version Helminiak seems to be using), says 'pursued unnatural lust,' ” he continues, referring to the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible.

"Clearly, the sins of Sodom lived in infamy not simply because of violent aggression or the lack of hospitality, but because men pursued sex with other men."

DeYoung also takes issue with our guest blogger's argument that the Greek term the New Testament writer Paul uses when describing homosexuality, para physin, has been misconstrued by modern translators to mean "unnatural." Helminiak says that the original term does not contain ethical judgment and should be translated instead as "atypical" or "unusual."

Absurd, says DeYoung. "We know Paul considered same-sex intercourse an ethical violation, and not simply something uncommon. ... (N)otice what Paul goes on to say: 'Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error' (NRSV)."

DeYoung writes, "When you read the whole verse, Helminiak’s 'nonethical' argument becomes implausible. Paul thought homosexuality not just unusual, but wrong, a sinful error deserving of a 'due penalty.' '"

On Facebook, Helminiak’s piece, "My Take: What the Bible really says about homosexuality," provoked a mix of positive and negative response. Some of the latter was very, very negative.

"The following article appeared on the front page of CNN. ... I was so grieved and troubled, I had to respond to the writer," Vince Smith wrote on his Facebook page Thursday. "This is what is most tragic and terrifying about beliefs on homosexuality in this nation.

"When you take Scripture and twist it to 'reinterpet' what it means, and then teach others, you are literally playing with fire ... eternal fire," Smith continued. "I pray that The Lord has mercy on Mr. Helminiak."

Readers' comments on the piece included much criticism, too (although there was plenty of support for Helminiak’s argument).

"Daniel's argument misses the glaringly obvious condemnation of gay sex in the Bible," writes a commenter named Mike Blackadder. "Catholics believe it is a mortal sin when it is premarital, masturbatory, and when we deny the possibility of conceiving children (i.e., through the use of contraceptives).

"Unfortunately, the faith suggests that gay sex falls under the same category as these others and if we interpret differently for gays, then we must accept a new interpretation of these other acts for the same reason," Blackadder writes. "The corollary is that if your faith accepts hetero impurities (such as contraceptives or [masturbation]) but condemns gays, then you may be rightfully accused of hypocrisy."

Many commenters avoided quibbling with Helminiak’s logic, instead taking aim at the piece's very existence.

"Why can't gays leave other people's sacred things alone?" asks a commenter named iqueue120. "Instead of redefining 'marriage,' just call your pervert juncture 'pirripipirripi.' We will grant you and your 'pirripipirripi-other' all the 'rights' that you want.

"You can write your own sacred book, call it, for instance, 'Pirripipirripible,' and make it teach how awesome is 'pirripipirripi,'" this commenter continues. "... All we ask in exchange is that you leave 'marriage' and 'Holy Bible' as they are."

On Twitter, most RTs, or retweets, endorsed the piece, but not all. "Another pastor,"  tweeted @BarbRoyal "trying to pretend the ugly parts out of the Xtian (Christian) bible. ..."

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: Bible • Comments • Gay marriage

soundoff (3,580 Responses)
  1. Charlie Angel

    Christ Loves EVERYONE unconditionally and asks us to do the same(that is the number one "rule" above all others). Leave judgement up to Him. In the meantime love more.

    May 18, 2012 at 10:47 am |
    • just sayin

      Love involves telling ho mo se xuals that ho mo se xuality is a sin not a right. God bless

      May 18, 2012 at 10:58 am |
    • DeeCee1000

      I prefer to believe in Unicorns, thanx.

      May 18, 2012 at 11:00 am |
    • David

      I hope he loves me. He is the one that made my gay a _ _.

      May 18, 2012 at 11:02 am |
    • pervert alert

      @david
      If you are a qu-eer it is because you chose to sin and be a qu-eer. the crime is all on you, deal with it.

      May 18, 2012 at 11:05 am |
    • Jesus Saves

      Jesus Saves

      the wages of sin is DEATH but the gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE thru Jesus Christ our LORD... no matter what schemes or plans man comes up with to avoid the TRUTH, TRUTH will always will be TRUTH, you can't change TRUTH and because JESUS is true and his word is true and is a God that can't lie nor is he the son of man to repent then that means unless you repent you shall all likewise perish Luke 13:5..you can't change truth into a lie..JESUS came so that we might have life and life more abundantly and that is to say not in excessive indulgence in the cares of this world but in him which dwell all the fullness of the godhead bodily..Why reject such a great love, all he wants to do is save us from the wrath to come..the day you hear my voice harden NOT your heart and I will come in and have sup with you and I will abide in you and you abide in me..Behold I come quickly and he that shall come will come and will not tarry ...

      May 18, 2012 at 11:06 am |
    • Roxanne

      @pervert alert Your bigoted bias is on full display. It must take a lot of energy to be so hateful.

      May 18, 2012 at 11:08 am |
    • Jesus Saves

      And the men asked what must I do to be saved ..and Peter said unto them REPENT and be BAPTIZED for the remission of your SINS and you shall receive the gift of the HOLYGHOST..Acts 2:38

      May 18, 2012 at 11:09 am |
    • YeahRight

      "Love involves telling ho mo se xuals that ho mo se xuality is a sin not a right."

      Adultery is a huge sin in the bible and condemned throughout but you're not blocking their civil rights to remarry. What a hypocrite. The experts have proven that being gay is not a mental illness, it's not a choice and it can't be voluntarily changed. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      Nowhere in your bible does your god condemn the saved loving respectful relationship of a gay couple.

      May 18, 2012 at 11:12 am |
    • Sammy

      What I find so intriguing about Christians is the fact that they act as if they were eye witnesses to everything that SUPPOSEDLY happened in the Bible. How can you put that much faith in something you never saw. How can you use your faith to suppress others lives? How can you be soooooo sure of everlasting life. Is it because you simply just fear hell? I am missing brain chemicals that some of you believers got an overdose of.

      May 18, 2012 at 11:14 am |
    • DragonSlayer Lights Your Fire

      Why do these bible thumpers love to preach when who they are trying to tell this to don't give a crap about it?

      May 18, 2012 at 11:14 am |
    • YeahRight

      "the wages of sin is DEATH"

      LMAO there are many things in your bible that are discussed as an abomination are you going to deny people who do these sins their civil rights too.. Unclean things (Lev. 7:21) ; Cheating (Mic. 6:10) ; A proud look (Pro. 6:16-17) ; A lying tongue (Pro. 6:17; 12:22) ; Hands that shed innocent blood ((Pro. 6:17) ; A wicked scheming heart (Pro. 6:18) ; A false witness that speaks lies (Pro. 6:19) ; A sower of discord (Pro. 6:19) ; A false balance or scale (Pro. 11:1) ; The proud of heart (Pro. 16:5) ; Justifying the wicked (Pro. 17:15) ; Condemning the just (Pro. 17:15) ; Refusing to hear the law (Pro. 28:9) ; Wearing clothes of the opposite sex (Dt. 22:5) Re-marriage of former companions (Dt. 24:1-4) ; Cheating others (Dt. 25:13-16) ; Making images/idols (Dt. 27:15) ; Eating unclean things (Isa. 66:17) ; Robbery (Ezek. 18: 6-13) ; Murder (Ezek. 18: 6-13) ; Adultery (Ezek. 18: 6-13) ; Oppression of others, particularly the poor or vulnerable (Ezek. 18: 6-13) ; Violence (Ezek. 18: 6-13) ; Breaking vows (Ezek. 18: 6-13) ; Lending with interest to a brother (Ezek. 18: 6-13) ; Lying with a menstruous woman (Ezek. 18: 6-13). Your nothing but a bunch of hypocrites.

      May 18, 2012 at 11:15 am |
    • Rob

      YeahRight nice list of organizations that believe it is biological not social behavior. However, your idea that is not something that can be curred is flawed. Some doctors believe being gay is do to an embalance of estrogen and testosterone hormones in the womb. Which in others words would make it a birth defect. The could eventually be cured. I am not trying to be mean or hateful, just letting you know that the idea that it is genetic, has not been proven.

      May 18, 2012 at 11:33 am |
    • TR6

      @just sayin:”Love involves telling ho mo se xuals that ho mo se xuality is a sin not a right. God bless”

      Love involves burning heretics and witches alive. Love involves killing abortion doctors.

      May 18, 2012 at 1:23 pm |
  2. ADJ

    I'm a Christian. I also support gay marriage.

    I believe that the Bible was inspired by God, but ultimately written by Man, so therefore can have biases of the times and/or the writers.
    I believe people are born gay, it isn't a "choice". And therefore cannot be a "sin" any more than someone's gender or race could be a sin.

    May 18, 2012 at 10:47 am |
    • Charlie Angel

      I agree. Well said.

      May 18, 2012 at 10:50 am |
    • Mike McVay

      Totally Agree!

      May 18, 2012 at 10:52 am |
    • glee

      "I am a Christian. I also support Gay marriage". That is contradictory. I agree that we should not hate the sinner, hate the sin, but it is clear in the Bible that marriage is between one man and one woman. Even if someone was born gay, I think it is possible to not live the lifestyle because it would be a sin against God. With God, all things are possible.

      May 18, 2012 at 10:55 am |
    • DeeCee1000

      Chances are you are someone who considers yourself a decent, good human being. Good human beings have existed since the beginning of our species. Calling yourself a "Christian" while not practicing what the Judeo-Christian manual teaches, with all of its stone age laws based on ignorant observations of the past makes you look bad from my perspective. It also makes "Christianity" look bad. It looks as if one religion is trying to claim love as its own even though loving human beings have always existed long before any of the "gods" were ever conceived by human beings and used by scamming human beings in their efforts to control others. Religions are always trying to claim this or that as their own; all they do is make themselves look like greedy, envious scamming creatures that some humans use for this evil purpose.

      May 18, 2012 at 10:58 am |
    • Jesus Saves

      Jesus Saves

      the wages of sin is DEATH but the gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE thru Jesus Christ our LORD... no matter what schemes or plans man comes up with to avoid the TRUTH, TRUTH will always will be TRUTH, you can't change TRUTH and because JESUS is true and his word is true and is a God that can't lie nor is he the son of man to repent then that means unless you repent you shall all likewise perish Luke 13:5..you can't change truth into a lie..JESUS came so that we might have life and life more abundantly and that is to say not in excessive indulgence in the cares of this world but in him which dwell all the fullness of the godhead bodily..Why reject such a great love, all he wants to do is save us from the wrath to come..the day you hear my voice harden NOT your heart and I will come in and have sup with you and I will abide in you and you abide in me..Behold I come quickly and he that shall come will come and will not tarry ... grace and peace

      May 18, 2012 at 11:05 am |
    • Rob

      People are born addictied to things that are sins, so that really isn't an argument.
      Currently the belief is that it must be genetic because people are born that way, and cliam to have choice.
      The are some doctors that believe that being gay comes form an embalance of estrogen and testosterone hormones in the womb during pregnancy. If that turns out to be the case, untimatly medicine will find a way to keep them in balance.
      If these events were to unfold, Civil unions would be the best answer now.

      May 18, 2012 at 11:06 am |
    • ADJ

      glee,
      So are you saying "God screws up"? If people are born gay, God made them that way!
      Also, by your definition, only Christians can get married. Is marriage between people that are Buddhist, Hindu, athiest, etc. null and void in your book? Marriage may have a religious component to the religious, but as far as the law goes, it's a civil issue.

      May 18, 2012 at 11:09 am |
    • ADJ

      DeeCee1000,
      I am a Christian because I beleive in God & Jesus, follow the 10 commandments, etc. The only "requirement" to be a Christian is to beleive in God and that Jesus was his son.
      Because I don't follow every little thing the Bible says word for word doesn't make me a non-Christian. FYI, the Bible also says a women is unclean when she's on that-time-of-month and shouldn't be touched, do you follow that too? I'm sure there's plenty of things in the Bible you don't follow.

      May 18, 2012 at 11:10 am |
    • Lucy

      Please don't call yourself a Christian if you don't believe the Bible. You can call a rock a feather but that doesn't make it a feather. And people are NOT born gay, otherwise, they wouldn't "turn back" after discovering that they're lifestyle is actually a perversion. Hey, we ALL sin - it's the repentence that matters.

      May 18, 2012 at 1:14 pm |
  3. Deborah Torres

    Goodnight BOYS

    May 18, 2012 at 10:46 am |
  4. skibo2000

    My take? Don't rely on a 2,000 year old book for guidance in a socially complicated world like today.

    May 18, 2012 at 10:46 am |
    • Lucy

      The Bible is just a revelant for today - even more so. Read Revelation or Matthew 24 or Thessalonians!

      May 18, 2012 at 1:15 pm |
  5. Mike McVay

    How many Gay people are you in family that you don't know about. If you think none...better think again. You are born gay. Not a sin. So would you burn your family member at the stake? So many are killing them selves because they think religion condemns them and there is no place here. As a young boy, I almost did. Glad I had loving parents and family to point me in the right direction. Now, I am a successful, loving, giving Gay man. I give back all I can to my community and people I love! And I don't hurt anyone!

    May 18, 2012 at 10:45 am |
    • Rob

      Since you don't know any of our families, you really overstepped your bounds. Its this kind of thinking that every family has a closet gay person, the really pushs people against the gay lifestyle. I do not think there are any statistics that show every family has a gay person.
      I am sorry about your childhood hardship. I am glad your parents were there to support you. I don't agree with your lifestyle but would never want someone to take their own life for any reason.

      May 18, 2012 at 11:10 am |
  6. simon

    In my mind, a solution to marriage should become two types for everyone:

    1. Religious Marriage – Based on its religious believe. If your religion believes a man and a woman, then don't change it. If yours are 1 man 2 women, 3 men 1 woman, 1 man 4 dogs, then don't change it. Your religion/church should have a final decision of if you can be married at their place and if they will issue a religious marriage cert to you, period. That is called – Religious freedom. (Keep in mind that religious marriage is only related to your religion, it will not have its "civil rights")

    2. Civil Marriage – Is for the nation, for the government, for your civil rights. NOT related to any religious. In this case – everyone is equal. You get your civil marriage cert at city hall. Pay a fee to register, have your visitation rights, etc.

    If you are a non believer of any religion, get only the civil one. if you are, get both! one from your states, one from your church.

    I am a christian and I believe in marriage between only a man and a woman. Why force me to change my view? If one day my church change its view and I cannot accept it, I will switch church. I will encourage other non-believers to look at my view, but not force them to change because if I started to do that I am violating other's civil rights.

    If you want to marriage your dog and you cannot find a single religion that accept your view....Create one for yourself! You will not force a Muslim to allow you to get married at their place and if they do not allow, you then say they are violating your rights.

    May 18, 2012 at 10:45 am |
    • sam stone

      makes sense. as long as the religious one carries NO governmental sanction

      May 18, 2012 at 10:56 am |
    • Jacques Strappe, World Famous French Ball Juggler

      You can't marry a dog. They can't consent. Then again, in the Bible, there was nothing about consent when it came to marriage.

      May 18, 2012 at 11:04 am |
  7. Peteyroo

    As good Christains, where to you stockpile your guns, torches, ropes, and pitchforks while you wait for the call to go out and slay the people you don't like? How much ammo is enough? Once you've done in the atheists & gays, where do you go from there? Will different sects go after each other? And after there is but one denomination left, do you fight it out church by church until there is only one church standing?

    May 18, 2012 at 10:44 am |
    • JFritz

      Amen. Why isn't enough for the religious to quietly sit in satisfaction, knowing that they're right? Why worry about the rest of us? Because they love us? Read the comments below; not much love there. Next they'll be talking about bringing back stoning.

      May 18, 2012 at 10:46 am |
  8. The Real God

    May 18, 2012 at 10:42 am |
    • Jesus Saves

      the wages of sin is DEATH but the gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE thru Jesus Christ our LORD... no matter what schemes or plans man comes up with to avoid the TRUTH, TRUTH will always will be TRUTH, you can't change TRUTH and because JESUS is true and his word is true and is a God that can't lie nor is he the son of man to repent then that means unless you repent you shall all likewise perish Luke 13:5..you can't change truth into a lie..JESUS came so that we might have life and life more abundantly and that is to say not in excessive indulgence in the cares of this world but in him which dwell all the fullness of the godhead bodily..Why reject such a great love, all he wants to do is save us from the wrath to come..the day you hear my voice harden NOT your heart and I will come in and have sup with you and I will abide in you and you abide in me..Behold I come quickly and he that shall come will come and will not tarry ... grace and peace

      May 18, 2012 at 11:02 am |
  9. JFritz

    Oh, for heaven's sake! Live and let live. Gay marriage doesn't threaten my hetero marriage at all. Nor my faith. All it really threatens are insurance companies and corporate benefit payouts, which we all know are the holy of holies. I don't want to know what goes on in anyone's bedroom, gay or straight, and I don't want anyone peering into mine. All this bible stuff is blowing smoke. Why not just sit back and sanctimonious satisfaction and let the rest of the world live their lives?

    May 18, 2012 at 10:41 am |
    • Essie

      If Christians weren't actively working to ruin gay lives, they would then have to work on their own dysfunctional families. Where is the teeth gnawing fun in that?

      May 18, 2012 at 10:45 am |
    • JM

      Amen. God knows we each have enough problems of our own. When I stand before Almighty God, He isn't going to be asking what someone else did. He's going to be looking at everything I did, said or thought.

      Jesus said anger is the same thing as murder (and that in the same way I judge another, I will be judged).

      May 18, 2012 at 10:47 am |
    • stoo

      Well said.

      May 18, 2012 at 10:54 am |
  10. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer changes .

    May 18, 2012 at 10:41 am |
    • Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

      Prayer changes things .

      May 18, 2012 at 10:41 am |
    • JFritz

      Nor is judgmental, sanctimonious religiosity

      May 18, 2012 at 10:42 am |
    • Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

      Prayer

      May 18, 2012 at 10:45 am |
    • atlathiest

      Brainwashing Children into believing the things you were brainwashed to believe by your parents who were brainwashed to believe by their parents... and so on..

      Prayer does NOTHING. in test after test after test after test. Prayer is useless banter.

      But you believe what you want, just stop pushing it on other people through our laws and regulations.

      May 18, 2012 at 10:52 am |
    • DragonSlayer Lights Your Fire

      [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac&w=640&h=360]

      CHRISTIANITY: TURNING GOOD CHILDREN BAD FOR CENTURIES

      May 18, 2012 at 11:24 am |
  11. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    God just keeps fiddling with his private parts and watching me. I prayed that He would stop, but he won't. Proven.

    May 18, 2012 at 10:38 am |
  12. Mike

    The bible claims a lot of things. However that doesn't make any of them true (or false).

    May 18, 2012 at 10:38 am |
  13. Jon Matthew

    In reading the comments it proves how evil and distorted the world is becoming. At some point we will start rationalizing the killing of innocent human life; oh wait we're already there with abortion! The truth doesn't change what was once immoral and unethical will always be immoral and unethical. With this downward spiral of our species I'm wondering what other sins humanity in there distorted minds want to justify? You know what why don't we do without ethics and morality altogether! If you want to walk down the street nude than you should be able to who cares about children being scandalized right? The world is sick and needs a good shot of grace through the soul.

    May 18, 2012 at 10:37 am |
    • JM

      At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
      But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

      9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

      11 “No one, sir,” she said.

      “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

      May 18, 2012 at 10:39 am |
    • DeeCee1000

      If you want to see "immoral" take a really close look at what the supposedly all-powerful Judeo-Christian "god" did to human beings throughout the bible, especially the OT. His actions are beyond immoral. You couldn't get me to worship any being that evil even if it promised eternal "heaven". . .add to THAT all of the evil that religions have done throughout history. Religion is a sickness that needs to be eradicated from the human species.

      May 18, 2012 at 10:47 am |
    • Primewonk

      JM – real biblical scholars (the ones who didn't get their degrees from pretend colleges) all agree that your story from John is a fraud. It doesn't appear in the original version. It was made up and added much later.

      Sorry.

      May 18, 2012 at 10:53 am |
    • atlathiest

      Morality, is not owned by your religion. Morality and ethics are inherent in the Human Race. Stop hijacking concepts and terms to justify your religious beliefs. There is no evil, no good. No Love no Hate, Just Positive and Negative and it is relative.

      May 18, 2012 at 10:55 am |
    • TR6

      @ Jon Matthew:” The truth doesn't change what was once immoral and unethical will always be immoral and unethical.”

      Typical empty headed Christian. Blind to any reality that doesn’t fit his beliefs. In the past it was unethical and against god’s specific instructions to eat lobster or shrimp, to ware mixed fabric (like cotton polyester blends) or to eat ham. Apparently “what was once immoral and unethical” can become perfectly acceptable

      May 18, 2012 at 4:53 pm |
  14. Reality

    Praise Jesus!! We all sin, the problem is when we try to justify our ways instead of turning away from them (or at least making a daily effort to). I Pray that all of you find the peace that is in Christ and that the Holy Spirit reveals your (OUR) sinful nature. Watch your tongues for "out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks" Luke 6:45 Don't condemn sin with further sin.........stand firm but most importantly stand righteous in the blood of Jesus!

    May 18, 2012 at 10:36 am |
    • Alex

      Amen!

      May 18, 2012 at 10:39 am |
    • Joey

      Blah blah blah blah blah!! Where do you learn to speak like that? You people or on some parallel plane and not of this world. I can just see you in an airport with a tamborine extended for donations.

      May 18, 2012 at 10:40 am |
    • AverageJoe76

      I wouldn't associate your comment with your handle.

      May 18, 2012 at 11:01 am |
    • Reality

      Not from the original Reality.

      May 18, 2012 at 5:47 pm |
  15. WASP

    @Um, yeah
    "What moral code do you follow? Will you please point me to it? Then it wouldn't bother me so much that atheism is so immoral and evil.
    May 18, 2012 at 9:38 am"
    1) exactly whom is on here shouting at whom about being immoral? i believe it's your christian ass. i was merely pointing out that the christians using sodom as a point to deny same gender marriage need to read how the whole story goes, lot impregnates his daughters. so god sent two angels to kill all the gays, men women and children but saved an incest family. a point they decide to avoid and leave out. so how moral are your actions here when if you don't like what i'm saying, turn off your computer and read your bible.
    @maff
    "morals without consequence? thats like saying people would drive the speed limit with no law. I drive on the roads with christians, muslims, buddist, and atheist, and I dont see too many people "doing unto others". I think that human behavior in traffic is one of the perfect examples. It is in our nature to do what is best for us. Im not saying that we have no compassion in our nature, but self comes first.
    So for atheist to think that they are the most devine beings on the planet,
    living by morals without consequence... Its rubbish. There are plenty of things you would do different right now, if you could get away with it.
    May 18, 2012 at 9:50 am"

    now who said morals didn't have consequences? i never did. every action has an opposing action. it's nature. if i abide by the speed limit, it may be due to the fact i don't wish to risk my childrens lives. i don't commit any action that would endanger them, my children are my moral guidance. if it would cause me harm or them harm i'm not going to do it; likewise if it puts another family in danger then i'm not going to do that action.

    May 18, 2012 at 10:34 am |
    • Reality

      I pray that you will see that Jesus is what is best for your children. Don't look at those 'claiming christianity' but focus on him. Paul's example of the christian life is a great one, encouraging others-building disciples, willing to be punished and even killed for his convictions, while showing love to those that were lost as he realized that the Spirit was not revealed to them. I pray for you and your family's salvation,
      Love in Christ, D

      May 18, 2012 at 10:42 am |
    • WASP

      @unreality: yeah i have experienced first hand the love christians show children. i grew up with "spare the rod;spoil the child." great saying..........for those that enjoy beating the tar out of the children that are put in their care. the bible is used everyday by "good" christians to excuse their abuse of children and animals, thanks but no thanks. i'm atheist and i will show my child that religion had it's time and show him each religion and allow my child to choose what he wishes to follow in life. you can quote me on this if my child ever comes home and tells me that a "good" christian laid one hand on him he didn't approve of or made him feel uncomfortible, they will never find that "good" christian ever again.

      May 18, 2012 at 11:41 am |
    • Reality

      Again, not from the original Reality.

      May 18, 2012 at 5:48 pm |
  16. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    I prayed that God would stop touching himself while He watches me, but He still does. Proven.

    May 18, 2012 at 10:31 am |
    • Deborah Torres

      I have never understood Atheism? Explain who fights something or gives themself a name for something THEY SAY, doesnt exist.. Or says something as dumb as that... So you admit he exist when you say that discusting comment.. You know deep in your heart HE is real, thats why you admit it. I get it.....

      May 18, 2012 at 10:35 am |
    • just sayin

      The fool who stole Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things must first declare the wonderful Truth that Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things before it posts its stupidity, Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things gets more and more exposure thanks to an atheistic idiot. God bless

      May 18, 2012 at 10:40 am |
    • Mike

      Deborah, it's abundantly clear that you don't understand atheism. An atheist simply does not BELIEVE your claim that a god exists. Secondly, atheists don't "fight God". They fight the imposing of God on themselves. If you Christians would STFU and pray in your closet like you were commanded and quit trying to impose God on others, then there wouldn't be any problems here.

      That make things clearer?

      May 18, 2012 at 10:44 am |
    • Mike McVay

      I understand Atheism and respect them. I believe in a creator. The Universe, man, spirit, whatever. Something created all. I just was making a comment that we should not be closed to one thing. You know none of us really knows the 100% truth while our time on Earth. We will all find out one day.....

      May 18, 2012 at 10:49 am |
  17. Deborah Torres

    God uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise!

    May 18, 2012 at 10:26 am |
    • greg1466

      .e.g "belief in God"

      May 18, 2012 at 10:30 am |
  18. bradrsaunders

    “I like your Christ. I don’t like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."

    –Ghandi

    May 18, 2012 at 10:26 am |
    • Deborah Torres

      I get and understand how you feel, but its oher people who are mad becasue we dont agree with them. Love doenst always mean we will agree. All christians aren't mean and cruel, but somebody has to stand for the real TRUTH. Jesus even said it. He came to divide families... Jesus is a revolutionary and this subject is huge and the world is at war and so is GOD AND satan...

      May 18, 2012 at 10:29 am |
    • greg1466

      Deborah just named one of the many reasons why I don;t even 'like your Christ'. And yes, all Christians are mean and cruel. That would actually be one of the kinder ways to describe a person who believes that other people deserve to be punished for ever just because they don't share the same irrational belief system.

      May 18, 2012 at 10:35 am |
    • Madtown

      somebody has to stand for the real TRUTH.
      ----
      You are part of the problem. What an arrogant fool you are. So, your truth is the "real truth"? And, what about people born into a part of the world where they would never hear the name Jesus, and would never see the bible or learn the first thing about christianity? Are they condemned? Does whatever cultural version of religion that's developed for them not contain any "real truth"? You need a major shot of humility. You're no better than anyone else in the world, in terms of human value. God does not value you more, simply because you read a human-crafted book that contains certain thoughts about the nature of God. Good grief.......

      May 18, 2012 at 10:37 am |
    • JM

      27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
      32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

      Judging Others 37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
      39 He also told them this parable: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40 The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher.
      41 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42 How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

      May 18, 2012 at 10:42 am |
    • glee

      This statement is true. Mainly because of who Christ is. Christ is the Son of God, meaning that he was perfect in every way. We humans, are not perfect and will never be. Therefore, man should not put their eyes on other men/women/Christians, because they will fail. Man should put their eyes on Christ, and strive to be more like him everyday.

      May 18, 2012 at 10:46 am |
    • Reality

      If you ever feel the Holy Spirit come into your life (and I pray that you do) then you too will KNOW that HE is the ONLY truth as well.
      I too get disgusted at those who claim the faith, never pray, never study their bible, never reach others but speak with anger and hate because that is NOT our faith in Christ! With that said, I will stand firm ......... while showing mercy. Meekness doesn't mean Weakness!

      May 18, 2012 at 11:00 am |
    • Reality

      And again, not from the original Reality.

      May 18, 2012 at 5:49 pm |
  19. Deborah Torres

    Romans Chapter 2 verse 18 to verse 32, is very clear on Gods take and what the world is going through at this very moment. No matter what anyone says God has already judged and final. Obama cant change it, no one can change it. We can twist it at our convenience, but dont let satan deceive you! I ask each of you to go to GOD not man to find out the truth. Just like people say Man wrote the Bible dont believe them, (even though it was inspired by GOD) I say to you dont believe man especially in Todays time, seek Christ yourself... The time is very short, and if people cant see it. It shows that time is shoreter than we think.

    May 18, 2012 at 10:25 am |
    • Madtown

      Romans Chapter 2 verse 18 to verse 32, is very clear on Gods take
      ------
      Except, that human beings wrote this passage. So, it's the "take" of the human author, not God. Are you really this arrogant, as to think you can know what God thinks about anything? Get some humility.

      May 18, 2012 at 10:27 am |
    • JM

      According to the Bible, everyone is a sinner and God loves everyone. That's it.

      Jesus is the least judgmental person ever.

      Favorite parable is The Great Banquet. What He is saying here is that when He comes back, the religious people are the ones who are going to make excuses but that God wants His kingdom filled so He will gather anyone who wants to come. None of us did anything to deserve God's love.

      15 When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.”
      16 Jesus replied: “A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. 17 At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’

      18 “But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, ‘I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.’

      19 “Another said, ‘I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I’m on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.’

      20 “Still another said, ‘I just got married, so I can’t come.’

      21 “The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.’
      22 “‘Sir,’ the servant said, ‘what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.’

      23 “Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full. 24 I tell you, not one of those who were invited will get a taste of my banquet.’”

      May 18, 2012 at 10:32 am |
    • Joey

      If you are completely honest with yourself, you would have to agree that you know just as much about God as a dung beetle. You have neither seen him nor heard him. He is a figment of your imagination. Come to that realization and start living in the here and now. If there is everlasting life, you won't get it by walking into a voting booth and voting to stamp out the gay family across the street.

      May 18, 2012 at 10:34 am |
    • Deborah Torres

      I am not here in this world to Pacify people. If people dont like Christians becasue we are saying the truth ( even though we arent running around screaming Civil righs and Hate Crime)... Christias are the most persecuted of all.. Religions of other countries and Atheist are more defended and respected and lets not hurt their feelings, but America hates its own. Its makes no sense to me.... But God has been so good to this nation and we have taken it out... I say all this in love.... I am not here upset and irate.. Can i have an opinion too, Can i have a choice too? Can I have civil rights too?

      May 18, 2012 at 10:39 am |
    • momoya

      And it's Joey for the win!! Thanks for posting simple sense, Joey!!

      May 18, 2012 at 10:45 am |
    • Deborah Torres

      ABSOLUTELY THE ONLY TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!! I AM BLESSED< and actually i love the gay familys.... I just have a choice to say the TRUTH, THE ONLY TRUTH< SO HELP ME GOD. Dont get mad at me because I feel the way i feel I have a relationship with God... The creator of the universe who made the heavens and earth and skies and people choose to ignore that... Its in our face everyday and we keep on believing the lies of this world and follow the ruler of this world satan (whom God gave to rule)...

      May 18, 2012 at 10:45 am |
    • A Servant

      To Deborah Torres – You are a true defender of His word. May His spirit continue to convict you in His truths.. Blessings

      May 18, 2012 at 10:46 am |
    • Mike

      Deborah, STFU and go read your Bible. K? Thanks.

      “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven."

      May 18, 2012 at 10:48 am |
    • dS.AnTiAN

      of course, Deborah , you can have an opinion. Anything you like, the whackier the better, that's so en vogue these days.

      Unfortunately if you stated all those home spun opinions in the middle ages or in biblical times you'd be stoned or burned at the stake. Consider yourself lucky to live in a modern society where secular laws protect free speech even of the whackiest.

      May 18, 2012 at 10:53 am |
    • Jacques Strappe, World Famous French Ball Juggler

      That is hilarious that you think you are the most persecuted. Wait, you weren't joking?

      May 18, 2012 at 10:54 am |
    • Jacques Strappe, World Famous French Ball Juggler

      Yes, the long war on Christianity. I pray that one day we may live in an America where Christians can worship freely! In broad daylight! Openly wearing the symbols of their religion... perhaps around their necks? And maybe - dare I dream it? - maybe one day there can be an openly Christian President. Or, perhaps, 44 of them. Consecutively!

      May 18, 2012 at 10:55 am |
    • atlathiest

      Why don't you google absurd Bible Verses? I think you will find that your book is full of useless crap and rules you would never follow.

      May 18, 2012 at 10:58 am |
    • Paul

      To Mike:

      You're an idiot, you're using it in the wrong context. The verse, taken for Matthew 6:1 (oh thanks for the citation), means that a person should not use the word of God to gain glory for themselves. What she is doing is trying to defend the word of God for what it truly is, not to gain glory.

      To Jacques Strappe, 'World Famous French Ball Juggler' my ass

      Isn't that exactly what you're doing? Persecuting this woman with your words, bringing her initial intentions down by calling her a fool?

      May 18, 2012 at 10:58 am |
    • Madtown

      Deborah Torres
      ABSOLUTELY THE ONLY TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!
      ------–
      Deborah, realize that if you were born in Saudi Arabia(something you don't choose, your birthplace), you'd be a muslim. And then, I suppose you'd also say that the traditions of the muslim faith are the "absolute and only truth", and that the teachings of christianity are false? You are a huge part of the problem.

      May 18, 2012 at 10:58 am |
    • dS.AnTiAN

      @Deb:
      "... people dont like Christians becasue we are saying the truth ( even though we arent running around screaming Civil righs and Hate Crime)"...
      No, you are running around "screaming that you have the truth" and only you.
      Do you hear frequent buzzing sounds in one ear or both?
      Do you hear voices speaking to you from nowhere?
      If so, do you respond and talk to them, calling them dog, god or Lordy?

      I think this secular society provides counseling services that might help you, but of course only if you wanted to be helped. In religious societies, past and present, they just send you to an insane asylum, stone you or burn you at the stake.
      Thank dog that we have civil law here and not biblical or sharia or whatever.

      May 18, 2012 at 11:00 am |
    • Jacques Strappe, World Famous French Ball Juggler

      How is that persecuting by pointing out her flawed reasoning?

      May 18, 2012 at 11:06 am |
    • myweightinwords

      Deborah, do you HONESTLY think that Christians are the most persecuted in this country? When better than 80% of people in the US are Christian?

      When was the last time someone was beaten to death for being Christian? When was the last time a Christian was denied custody of their children? When was the last time a Christian business was run out of the neighborhood? When was the last time a Christian child took their own life due to the bullying of those around them telling them they were sick, evil, demented, perverted, etc?

      You don't know persecution.

      May 18, 2012 at 6:01 pm |
  20. Zack

    I don't understand why Christians think "Marriage" belongs to them? Do a little research people! Marriage was around prior to your religion playing a role... It even distinguishes in the Catholic Encyclopedia a diference between marriage in the church and marriage in the government (Civil). If you don't know your own religion or the history behind something.. where did you get your opinion? Do you realize how stupid you sound to intelligent people? Just because your a Christian doesn't mean that you can be uneducated.. augh becuase you share the same faith with me doesn't mean you can make me look bad!

    May 18, 2012 at 10:23 am |
    • David

      Christians think the Universe belongs to them because God gave it to them. They use this mental instability to justify their existance.

      May 18, 2012 at 10:43 am |
    • Rob

      If the movement was for civil unions and not marriage, you would fine more Chritians getting on the bandwagon.

      May 18, 2012 at 11:44 am |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.