home
RSS
My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage
The author backs same-sex marriage because of his faith, not in spite of it.
May 19th, 2012
02:00 AM ET

My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage

Editor's Note: Mark Osler is a Professor of Law at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

By Mark Osler, Special to CNN

I am a Christian, and I am in favor of gay marriage. The reason I am for gay marriage is because of my faith.

What I see in the Bible’s accounts of Jesus and his followers is an insistence that we don’t have the moral authority to deny others the blessing of holy institutions like baptism, communion, and marriage. God, through the Holy Spirit, infuses those moments with life, and it is not ours to either give or deny to others.

A clear instruction on this comes from Simon Peter, the “rock” on whom the church is built. Peter is a captivating figure in the Christian story. Jesus plucks him out of a fishing boat to become a disciple, and time and again he represents us all in learning at the feet of Christ.

During their time together, Peter is often naïve and clueless – he is a follower, constantly learning.

After Jesus is crucified, though, a different Peter emerges, one who is forceful and bold. This is the Peter we see in the Acts of the Apostles, during a fevered debate over whether or not Gentiles should be baptized. Peter was harshly criticized for even eating a meal with those who were uncircumcised; that is, those who did not follow the commands of the Old Testament.

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

Peter, though, is strong in confronting those who would deny the sacrament of baptism to the Gentiles, and argues for an acceptance of believers who do not follow the circumcision rules of Leviticus (which is also where we find a condemnation of homosexuality).

His challenge is stark and stunning: Before ordering that the Gentiles be baptized Peter asks “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

None of us, Peter says, has the moral authority to deny baptism to those who seek it, even if they do not follow the ancient laws. It is the flooding love of the Holy Spirit, which fell over that entire crowd, sinners and saints alike, that directs otherwise.

My Take: Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality

It is not our place, it seems, to sort out who should be denied a bond with God and the Holy Spirit of the kind that we find through baptism, communion, and marriage. The water will flow where it will.

Intriguingly, this rule will apply whether we see homosexuality as a sin or not. The water is for all of us. We see the same thing at the Last Supper, as Jesus gives the bread and wine to all who are there—even to Peter, who Jesus said would deny him, and to Judas, who would betray him.

The question before us now is not whether homosexuality is a sin, but whether being gay should be a bar to baptism or communion or marriage.

Your Take: Rethinking the Bible on homosexuality

The answer is in the Bible. Peter and Jesus offer a strikingly inclusive form of love and engagement. They hold out the symbols of Gods’ love to all. How arrogant that we think it is ours to parse out stingily!

I worship at St. Stephens, an Episcopal church in Edina, Minnesota. There is a river that flows around the back and side of that church with a delightful name: Minnehaha Creek. That is where we do baptisms.

The Rector stands in the creek in his robes, the cool water coursing by his feet, and takes an infant into his arms and baptizes her with that same cool water. The congregation sits on the grassy bank and watches, a gentle army.

Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter

At the bottom of the creek, in exactly that spot, is a floor of smooth pebbles. The water rushing by has rubbed off the rough edges, bit by bit, day by day. The pebbles have been transformed by that water into something new.

I suppose that, as Peter put it, someone could try to withhold the waters of baptism there. They could try to stop the river, to keep the water from some of the stones, like a child in the gutter building a barrier against the stream.

It won’t last, though. I would say this to those who would withhold the water of baptism, the joy of worship, or the bonds of marriage: You are less strong than the water, which will flow around you, find its path, and gently erode each wall you try to erect.

The redeeming power of that creek, and of the Holy Spirit, is relentless, making us all into something better and new.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Mark Osler.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Christianity • Episcopal • Gay marriage • Opinion

soundoff (15,115 Responses)
  1. Arvoasitis

    A history of the evolution of marriage and the "act" among the common people:
    1. For a thousand years and much more, the traditional definition of marriage reigns; the "Christian position is the only "approved" position.
    2. The Christian position was augmented by an ever-increasing variety of exotic positions but the act remained in the "straight" repertoire.
    3. The "gay" repertoire entered traditional marriage, but if a woman who found such acts unpleasant informed the authorities, her spouse would be arrested and imprisoned.
    4. The "gay" lifestyle found increasing acceptance but not legal endorsement.
    5. "Gay" marriage" caught fire and began to spread rapidly.
    6. The logical out come: Family groups of 4-8 adults, all married to each other, and their sleeping arrangements are their own business, creating an ideal nurturing environment for children (especially if it is stipulated that at least one spouse was to be female and at least one to be male? (Would Plato be delighted; probably not, but who cares?)

    June 5, 2012 at 6:32 pm |
    • Arvoasitis

      After point 3., I would like t add point 3.(a): The "gay" repertoire enters traditional marriage but becomes accepted; if a woman complains that she finds such acts unpleasant, the "experts" advise her to get rid of her hang-ups and take joy in pleasuring her spouse.

      June 5, 2012 at 6:39 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      WTeff are you blathering about?

      June 5, 2012 at 7:45 pm |
  2. Bob

    If a small group of psychiatrists and other mental health professionals have their way at a conference this week, pedophiles themselves could play a role in removing pedophilia from the American Psychiatric Association’s bible of mental illnesses — the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), set to undergo a significant revision by 2013. Critics warn that their success could lead to the decriminalization of pedophilia.

    June 5, 2012 at 6:28 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "If a small group of psychiatrists and other mental health professionals have their way at a conference this week, pedophiles themselves could play a role in removing pedophilia from the American Psychiatric Association’s bible of mental illnesses "

      Keep showing how clueless you are on this subject since pedophiles bring harm to children, it's illegal and children can't consent. The excuses you come up with to try to justify your unfounded prejudice and hatred is hysterical. LMAO! DUUUHHHHH!

      June 5, 2012 at 6:55 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Don't hold your breath waiting for a response from Boob, YR. He never answers a single question, responds to a single challenges, or demonstrates he has a single brain cell.

      June 5, 2012 at 7:15 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Don't hold your breath waiting for a response from Boob, YR. He never answers a single question, responds to a single challenge, or demonstrates he has a single brain cell.

      June 5, 2012 at 7:16 pm |
    • salt

      This is true....they have been working at it for several years now....Canada and the US. Sorry many on these blogs are not aware of the actions going on in the political arena.

      June 5, 2012 at 8:14 pm |
    • salt

      Tom Tom and Yeahright – heres the deal!! Just because there are nutjobs out there and they happen to be gay – DOES NOT MAKE YOU GUILTY – you should be as disgusted as anyone else – if you are normal. When I see christians who are nutjobs – that does not make me guilty....I can stand back say, "Wow this person does not represent anything to do with christianity" – and walk away. Not you guys – you defend the sick, nutjobs and it makes you all look bad.....just sayin

      June 5, 2012 at 8:18 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      salt=HotPo0per, sentinels warning of the great happenings in the "political arena". Unfortunately, this poor slob can't even articulate what these happenings are, but is certain they're dire.

      Really, if you were a comedy act, you could make a mint.

      June 5, 2012 at 9:14 pm |
    • PPLRWRD

      Well Tom, you seem to have a contradictory view to what Bob said. Instead of just throwing out insults what is your evidence that Bob is wrong? I mean seriously, it seems wierd that anyone could concieve of legalizing child abuse but I have seen wierd things in the world. Do you have evidence that he is wrong or just insults. I would like to hear the evidence as it does influence my opinion, insults just makes me think you are here to stir the pot.

      June 6, 2012 at 7:07 am |
    • PPLRWRD

      Bob, it seems to me that perhaps they are trying to get rid of pediphilia as a mental disorder not to legalize it, but to make the consequences of it more harsh. After all, if someone can claim insanity or some other mental disorder their reprocutions for a crime are slackened. By discarding pediphila from the pychology books of America it seems that any protection for such a crime would be discarded as well and criminals would face the full weight of the judicial system.

      June 6, 2012 at 7:15 am |
    • Bob

      PPLRWRD
      If you follow how gays got off the mental disorder list it was the same way. 'this is what peds are angling for

      June 6, 2012 at 8:35 pm |
  3. Richard "BONEHEAD" Cheney

    Simply a pretense to legitimize sucking on a male tube.

    June 5, 2012 at 4:15 pm |
  4. JoeP199

    I have absolutely no problem with any RELIGION declaring that "marriage is between one man and one woman". However, as a legal matter, no GOVERNMENT, state or federal, should be allowed to discriminate in providing the same legal rights to any two people who choose to join themselves in matrimony.

    June 5, 2012 at 1:08 pm |
    • Julie

      Nice Joe....but what if someone wants to marry 8 women and some of them are young...you know 14 years old? What if someone wants to marry his sister?

      June 5, 2012 at 1:17 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "but what if someone wants to marry 8 women and some of them are young...you know 14 years old? What if someone wants to marry his sister?"

      It might help if you weren't so lazy and did your homework on this issue. Incest is illegal and children can't consent. DUH!

      June 5, 2012 at 1:19 pm |
    • Julie

      Not yet dumb dumb

      June 5, 2012 at 1:22 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Not yet dumb dumb"

      Gays have the experts behind them your comment doesn't. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      June 5, 2012 at 1:24 pm |
    • Julie

      We've come a long way....its not a mental illness. Wow

      June 5, 2012 at 2:41 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      @Julie,

      Nice Joe....but what if someone wants to marry 8 women and some of them are young...you know 14 years old? What if someone wants to marry his sister?

      First of all, what should it matter if a man wants to marry 8 women (and can afford to do so) or a woman marry 8 men? Provided that all involved are consenting ADULTS as per the law. Of course, in some states, a 14 year old is free to legally marry, provided she has parental consent.

      Perhaps we should be paying more attention to THAT? As I said below, consent laws have their own issues, and personally I think anyone entering marriage before they've lived a life outside of their parents house is wrong, but we are NOT talking about children getting married. We're talking about two adults who are above the legal age of consent.

      Personally, I can not understand how two people joining their lives together has any bearing on anyone outside of those two people.

      June 5, 2012 at 2:43 pm |
    • Jackcheese

      "Gays have the experts behind them"...uh huh! That is screamin funny!!! Are they gay too? You guys have mastered not listening to anyone or any of the other stats on this wall!! No truth just what we want to hear!! Good Luck

      June 5, 2012 at 2:58 pm |
    • YeahRight

      ""Gays have the experts behind them"...uh huh! That is screamin funny!!! Are they gay too? You guys have mastered not listening to anyone or any of the other stats on this wall!! No truth just what we want to hear!! "

      No, your the bigot. We've posted what the experts are saying to back ourselves up, you haven't. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      June 5, 2012 at 3:21 pm |
    • Bob

      [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AT_bMuFBfs&w=640&h=390]

      July 1, 2012 at 12:40 am |
  5. GauisCaesar

    No comment for me

    June 5, 2012 at 11:49 am |
    • Hotpepper

      ........it is the gay camp who do not want the answers. I wrote that clearly....not sure what happened

      June 5, 2012 at 12:52 pm |
    • Jackcheese

      JUST SO EVERYONE IS AWARE......THE PERSON ON THIS BLOG CALLED "YEAHRIGHT" IS MAKING UP TESTS RESULTS AND STATS AS HE GOES. PLEASE DISREGARD ANY OF HIS COMMENTS. PEOPLE LIKE HIM COME ONTO THIS WALL AND THEY DO IS TRY TO TAKE DOWN ANY COMMENT THAT DOES NOT AGREE WITH HIM. BUT THE LIES HE IS CREATING FOR THEIR CAUSE IS ONLY DOING DAMAGE TO HIS GROUP. AGAIN PLEASE DISREGARD HIS COMMENTS – THERE IS NO BACKING FOR ANYTHING HE SAYS

      June 5, 2012 at 3:23 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "JUST SO EVERYONE IS AWARE......THE PERSON ON THIS BLOG CALLED "YEAHRIGHT" IS MAKING UP TESTS RESULTS AND STATS AS HE GOES. PLEASE DISREGARD ANY OF HIS COMMENTS. PEOPLE LIKE HIM COME ONTO THIS WALL AND THEY DO IS TRY TO TAKE DOWN ANY COMMENT THAT DOES NOT AGREE WITH HIM. BUT THE LIES HE IS CREATING FOR THEIR CAUSE IS ONLY DOING DAMAGE TO HIS GROUP. AGAIN PLEASE DISREGARD HIS COMMENTS – THERE IS NO BACKING FOR ANYTHING HE SAYS"

      I am actually quoting the experts on this subject. Poor baby you can't handle the REAL truth. Duh! The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      LMAO!

      June 5, 2012 at 5:06 pm |
  6. Waterstar

    I once was a catholic (atheist now), I remember the priest telling us that god loves everyone, the rich, the poor, and the criminal, I'm sure the gays go here too. I really don't see why everybody is rewording 'God' so that he says gays are going to hell, because the Bible never said that, at least the unchanged versions. I really want a real reason why gays are bad, all I hear is that god hates them and they are bad. The gays and bis are just like everyone else, you don't know they are until they show it. I'm a bi in love with a guy and I'm perfectly normal (except my anger problems, working on that)! So seriously, what is another reason why you hate gays and bis church, and everyone for that matter?

    June 5, 2012 at 10:20 am |
    • Hotpepper

      Wow fairly one sided view there!! Most of these headlines by CNN are against christians and if you actually look at the content of these blogs you WILL SEE hate all over from the gay community. Some even wishing christians to d-ie. Please pull your head out of the sand. For every intolerant christian there are is an intolerant mean gay person doing all kinds of bashing. This is not about gays being bad....this is about marriage remaining defined between a man and a woman – did you not hear of the vote in North Carolina. Someone below here asked for a case against this to be made, but not from a religious standpoint. Many of us were able to answer this easily.....if the gay camp that does not want to answers.

      June 5, 2012 at 12:49 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Please pull your head out of the sand. For every intolerant christian there are is an intolerant mean gay person doing all kinds of bashing. This is not about gays being bad....this is about marriage remaining defined between a man and a woman – did you not hear of the vote in North Carolina. Someone below here asked for a case against this to be made, but not from a religious standpoint. Many of us were able to answer this easily.....if the gay camp that does not want to answers."

      Lying is a sin moron. LMAO! By the way many of us supporting gay rights aren't gay! Duh! And it's Christians like you that lie about the truth regarding gays today. The experts that have stated that heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      By the way it was the U S Supreme court that ruled that marriage is a civil right.

      June 5, 2012 at 12:58 pm |
    • Jackcheese

      bla bla bla bla bla bla yeah right bla bla bla

      June 5, 2012 at 1:02 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "bla bla bla bla bla bla yeah right bla bla bla"

      This is the excuse that people have to use when their opinions aren't based on real facts. LMAO!

      June 5, 2012 at 1:27 pm |
    • Jackcheese

      ITS SOOOO CUTE HOW "YEAHRIGHT" REPEATS OUR COMMENTS FOR US AND THEN WRITES HIS ACCESSMENT – BUT I NEVER MAKE IT TO HIS COMMENT – I JUST LIKE READING MINE AGAIN!!!! hahehahehahehehehahaha:):)

      June 5, 2012 at 3:26 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "ITS SOOOO CUTE HOW "YEAHRIGHT" REPEATS OUR COMMENTS FOR US AND THEN WRITES HIS ACCESSMENT – BUT I NEVER MAKE IT TO HIS COMMENT – I JUST LIKE READING MINE AGAIN!!!! hahehahehahehehehahaha:):)"

      You mean your unfounded prejudice and bigotry with no facts to back them up. LOL Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience.

      June 5, 2012 at 5:08 pm |
    • PPLRWRD

      I don't think God hates Gays, but I do think it is wrong.

      Religous reason: "A man shall not lay with a man as with a women." That is the Christian version, Islam and Buddism have similiar takes.

      Scientific reason: Reproductive Cycle, need I say more? I will though. Man on man or Women on Women are like to puzzle pieces that just don't fit. It is like to similiar magnets. Except in cases of a show of dominance you don't really see two male lions going at it with each other and definetely not forming their own prides together. All through science and nature you don't see similiar relations. It is always a male on female, whether mechanically or naturally.

      June 5, 2012 at 6:29 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Yet another clueless boob who thinks that procreation is required for a couple to get married.

      June 5, 2012 at 7:18 pm |
    • PPLRWRD

      Well, the question was what proof is there that gay lifestyles are wrong. I gave scientific and natural evidence for those non-religous types and religous text reference for those who do believe. If we are nothing but animals I would say that scientific support is applicable and if we are spiritual beings then I would say religous evidence is applicable. What am I missing?

      June 6, 2012 at 7:03 am |
  7. PPLRWRD

    You know what kills me is the hypocracy that flies in these conversations. Both sides of the arguements throw out so much hate and discontent they both look like idjiots. Religioun, if one trully believes in them teaches love, patience, and good morals. Science, if one looks to it teaches logic, reason, and understanding. Both are good things. However, both sides think theirs is the only answer and show intolerance towards the other instead of trying to unite and truthfully look at what the message of the teaching is. You have religous fanatics who teach violence and intolerance towards others and forget that if their God is real then they needent worry about what others think, God can take care of himself. On the side of science, if you really believe in what science teaches, then arguing with religous folks is like arguing with an idiot, don't do it, they will just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. But personally, I think Christ is real and science is the explaination of how he has done things, not the why. The Bible teaches the why. That is my beliefs, those are the moral standards I will hold to, those are the ideas I will share. Now, if you want to talk to me about your ideas and beliefs I welcome them because all they can do is help me grow and expand my understanding of the world and people. I will trust God to keep me on the right path to him.

    June 5, 2012 at 8:55 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh, brother. Another "intellectual" who can't spell half the words in its post.

      June 5, 2012 at 10:08 am |
    • Hotpepper

      Some are in a hurry or on iphones.....not sitting all day blogging like you

      June 5, 2012 at 12:42 pm |
    • PPLRWRD

      See Tom Tom, you are one of those guys who can't have a real conversation? I do appologize for not using spell check though. I just threw down my ideas and had to go.

      June 5, 2012 at 6:31 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      If you are following my posts so closely, you 1)have too much time on your hands and 2) will notice that I haven't been here for at least 6 hours.

      June 5, 2012 at 7:19 pm |
    • Hotpepper

      We noticed you were not here for six hours....it was soooo refreshing

      June 5, 2012 at 8:22 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      So you were here for those 6 hours? What's that say about YOU?

      June 5, 2012 at 9:16 pm |
    • PPLRWRD

      Can we get away from the insults and go towards an intellectual debate about the topic at hand?

      June 6, 2012 at 7:08 am |
  8. Bob

    The insults on this board are only the tip of the iceberg when dealing with these issues. In Canada anti discrimination laws can land a Pastor in jail if he quotes the passages of the Bible regarding omoexual behavior. In Colorado the laws have changed about public bathrooms in that if you think you are a woman then a man can go into the woman's bathroom and nothing can be done about it. The respect of people is not accounted for when dealing with this. As we see here.

    June 5, 2012 at 7:50 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You are so dumb it sits on you like a second skin, Boob.

      June 5, 2012 at 10:09 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Why haven't you answered the questions I asked you, Boob? Too scared? Can't sound out the big words?

      June 5, 2012 at 10:18 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      I checked, Booby, and there's not a cite for your tale from Canada other than on sites like "NARTH" and "World Nut Daily". Can you cite a mainstream, widely accepted NEWS source (rather than a propaganda mill) for the story you're braying about? Or are you going to post another bunch of bull and run away like a scared little puppy when you're asked to back it up with facts?

      June 5, 2012 at 10:54 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh, and the bit about bathrooms? Produce a cite for that one, too, dearie. Go ahead. Don't disappoint your fan club, now.

      June 5, 2012 at 10:56 am |
    • YeahRight

      "The respect of people is not accounted for when dealing with this. As we see here."

      That's because you don't represent the real facts about this issue. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      June 5, 2012 at 11:02 am |
    • Hotpepper

      Bob the hardest thing is that is nothing nasty about the info you are bringing. I know from years of childcare that those stats are true, and that even when given the chance to have legal civil unions most don't. Being honest brings credibility – if they could stop trying to slam every drop of real truth that is spoken and respond truthfully, then there would be a dialogue or some form of acceptance. Tom Tom gotta stop squirming when the truth is spoken, it only makes you and others look bad

      June 5, 2012 at 12:39 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "I know from years of childcare that those stats are true, and that even when given the chance to have legal civil unions most don't. Being honest brings credibility"

      So now look at the stats of straights, how many of their children are in foster care, how many are having to be removed from their homes, how many of their relationships dissolve and marriages fail. LMAO ! Oh.....that's right your prejudice and bigotry is only towards gays.

      June 5, 2012 at 12:44 pm |
    • Hotpepper

      Have to walk you throught this....ug! Yes MANY straight families have children that end up in foster care. But the gay community only makes up 3% of the population at most.....so the percentage that ARE gay and have kids, and have kids that are messed up is very high. Parenting is something that is growing in the gay community but still does not have a great track record. You are exhausting

      June 5, 2012 at 1:15 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Yes MANY straight families have children that end up in foster care. But the gay community only makes up 3% of the population at most.....so the percentage that ARE gay and have kids, and have kids that are messed up is very high. Parenting is something that is growing in the gay community but still does not have a great track record. You are exhausting"

      More lies on top of more lies NOT based on facts. Social science has shown that the concerns often raised about children of lesbian and gay parents—concerns that are generally grounded in prejudice against and stereotypes about gay people—are unfounded. Overall, the research indicates that the children of lesbian and gay parents do not differ from the children of heterosexual parents in their development, adjustment, or overall well-being.

      June 5, 2012 at 1:17 pm |
    • Hotpepper

      Social Science bla bla bla....talk to the people that actually work with these kids, family members, social workers, teachers, child care workers.....take the blanket off your head. One word herer DENIAL

      June 5, 2012 at 1:21 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Social Science bla bla bla....talk to the people that actually work with these kids, family members, social workers, teachers, child care workers.....take the blanket off your head. One word herer DENIAL"

      You're in DENIAL that you are nothing more than a prejudice bigot who is spreading unfounded lies and hatred. The hundred of thousands of experts has prove you WRONG. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      June 5, 2012 at 1:23 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Anecdotal evidence again, but of the families I know raising children, I actually see the children of LGBT families as better educated, better adjusted to the world, and more engaged in the communities around them than the children of hetero families.

      In fact, there is a lesbian couple I know who routinely take in children who have been abandoned by society and through love and discipline they teach them how to be better people.

      June 5, 2012 at 2:34 pm |
    • Jackcheese

      You guys are HILARIOUS!!! " I know A couple who take in children.." are you kidding me!! Most of the orphanages and foster homes in the world are run by christians!! I am glad this "couple" help....but you are kind of navel gazing here!! And to MR Yeahright....you should work in COMEDY man!! You are almost funny......did you buy your stats and tests here in a dark alley from a guy in a trenchcoat???????

      June 5, 2012 at 2:49 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "I know A couple who take in children.." are you kidding me!! Most of the orphanages and foster homes in the world are run by christians!! I am glad this "couple" help....but you are kind of navel gazing here!!"

      Gays and Lesbians do adopt. Social science has shown that the concerns often raised about children of lesbian and gay parents—concerns that are generally grounded in prejudice against and stereotypes about gay people—are unfounded. Overall, the research indicates that the children of lesbian and gay parents do not differ from the children of heterosexual parents in their development, adjustment, or overall well-being.

      June 5, 2012 at 5:10 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Hot Po0per, when are you going to stop lying and post statistics to back up your claim. If that large a percentage of gays have been abusing their children, it should be easily provable. Where is your proof?

      The fact is that you don't have any. You are stupidly telling people to "ask a social worker" because you are so dim you haven't figured out that statistically, most gays never have any dealings with a social worker. Social workers ONLY deal with families that have problems. Citing their anecdotes as proof of something is like asking a psychiatrist how many of his patients are sick. Idiot, most gays don't have any parenting problems that would require the intervention of a social worker, but of course, being a doofus, you can't figure that out.

      June 5, 2012 at 7:24 pm |
    • Hotpepper

      Lets all take a big guess that "Yeahright" has no children – and lets take a further guess that he does not know any gays with children. Your comments sound like they are from a gay newsletter – some of us actually have experience with this.....All of the children from gay families that I cared for (that were in foster care)....needed alot of help

      June 5, 2012 at 8:35 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You need a "lot of help" HotP00phead. You're just another troll, probably the same one who posts under the name of "Wisdom".

      Really, I hope you never took care of any real children. You're not equipped.

      June 5, 2012 at 9:19 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Lets all take a big guess that "Yeahright" has no children – and lets take a further guess that he does not know any gays with children. Your comments sound like they are from a gay newsletter – some of us actually have experience with this.....All of the children from gay families that I cared for (that were in foster care)....needed alot of help"

      More lies on top of more lies. I worked with foster care children for years and of the thousands I helped, they were all screwed up from their straight parents, none of them were from gay families. Duh! I had to stop doing it because it really reveals the deep dark side of humanity and what straight people are capable of inflicting on an innocent child, including murdering them. DUUUHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      June 6, 2012 at 10:43 am |
  9. Louise Roys

    Not so Hotpepper. Marriiage wasn't about men and women uniting for children until well after the church mandated it so. It was originally a pagen ritual used for solidifying land, politics and power. Marriage has been around since before recorded history. One obvious reason for it was the creation of offspring. But a far more important reason for marriage was the cementing of alliances. Difficulties abounded in the ancient world, and the more allies you had the safer you were. Marriages were the prefered method for sealing alliances between families, clans, tribes, and ultimately nations.

    The idea of marriage based on romantic love is actually a relatively recent innovation. The true purpose of marriage throughout the ages was advancement of family (clan, national - whatever) interest. That's why throughout history most marriages were arranged. There was no romance or love involved - this was business.

    June 5, 2012 at 1:49 am |
    • Batman

      bla bla bla bla bla you guys cannot even quote your own history with truth – don't try anyone elses.....bunch of lies and BS to create your "own spin" on it all....if even one of you could be honest in some form it would be so refreshing

      June 5, 2012 at 12:33 pm |
    • Susan W

      Sorry have to agree with Batman.....your nuts

      June 5, 2012 at 12:54 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      It's "you're" sjh!twit. And both you and Batman are clueless about history.

      June 5, 2012 at 7:25 pm |
  10. wabob62

    Your church is the is the devils palace if there is one, worry about your own worthless souls I'am free of relgion and happy for it ,I now have a clear relationship with my creator and no influence from the evil ones.

    June 5, 2012 at 12:17 am |
    • Susan W

      you sound soooo spiritual and free of it all wabob62.......as you call someone else the devils place – NOT!!!! what a joke

      June 5, 2012 at 12:57 pm |
  11. Salty

    My official post!! I just love salt!! It adds flavor, cleanses impuities, restores electro-lytes, makes a great partner to pepper!!!
    Especially cleanses impurities!! Truth Truth Truth Truth When answers are given that hold truth, there is NO sarcasm or smoke and mirrors that can remove it. The truth is the truth forever more

    June 4, 2012 at 10:00 pm |
    • Jackcheese

      Bob wouldn't it be cool if CNN actually used some of this information......do you notice when you put just a bit out there, they demand more proof..????? hahaha its sad man

      June 5, 2012 at 12:59 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      What I notice is that you're 15 and illiterate.

      June 5, 2012 at 8:08 pm |
  12. Bob

    According to the Mendola Report, a mere 26 percent of omoexuals believe that commitment is most important in a marriage relationship.There is so much more about the dismal success rate for omoexual marriage. Including that most do not enter into civil unions when the opportunity exists. So this is the real argument for gay marriage isn't it?

    June 4, 2012 at 9:58 pm |
    • Salty

      He shoots – He SCORES!!! Bob I know you are not trying to hurt anyones feelings here, but this is all true. Denial is pointless.

      June 4, 2012 at 10:04 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh, there you are, Boob. Why don't you answer my question? It's right below that long bunch of propaganda you posted earlier. Scared?

      June 4, 2012 at 10:10 pm |
    • closet atheist

      @ Bob

      Please quote sources re: "dismal success rates" of g.ay marriages. The ONLY source I've found that says g.ay marriage are shorter in duration or in any way comes from the incredibly biased research of The Family Research Council (a right wing propaganda shop). Even at a glance, I can see glaring errors in the way they are comparing hetero to g.ay marriage. Typical researcher bias.

      States that now allow g.ay marriages have actually seen their net divorce rates DECLINE since allowing g.ay marriage.

      June 5, 2012 at 10:21 am |
    • YeahRight

      "According to the Mendola Report, a mere 26 percent of omoexuals believe that commitment is most important in a marriage "

      50% of marriages by straight people end in divorce which is adultery according to the bible but Christians are blocking their civil rights to remarry. Duh!

      June 5, 2012 at 11:00 am |
    • YeahRight

      crap that was suppose to be "aren't blocking their civil rights" LOL!

      June 5, 2012 at 11:01 am |
  13. Bob

    The Dutch study of partnered omoexuals, which was published in the journal AIDS, found that men with a steady partner had an average of eight exual partners per year

    June 4, 2012 at 9:57 pm |
    • Meatloaf

      Great points Bob....its not fun on the other side of the fence

      June 4, 2012 at 11:12 pm |
    • SweetGenius

      Bobby my man you've got it!!

      June 5, 2012 at 1:57 am |
    • closet atheist

      Bob, just curious... what was the population sample of this study?? Or did you just find some half-@ssed statistic that helps you justify your hatred....

      June 5, 2012 at 10:24 am |
    • YeahRight

      "The Dutch study of partnered omoexuals, which was published in the journal AIDS, found that men with a steady partner had an average of eight exual partners per year"

      70% of people with AIDS are found in Africa and they are straight. Your prejudice and bigotry towards this group is unfounded. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience.

      June 5, 2012 at 10:58 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Notice that Boob can't ever defend his sources. Doesn't even try.

      June 5, 2012 at 7:28 pm |
  14. Bob

    study of omoexual men in the Netherlands published in the journal AIDS found that the "duration of steady partnerships" was 1.5 years. In Male and Female omoexuality, Saghir and Robins found that the average male omoexual live-in relationship lasts between two and three years.

    June 4, 2012 at 9:56 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Of the gay men I know currently in relationships/marriages, less than 25% of them have been in that relationship for less than 5 years. I can think of at least 5 gay couples who have been together better than 20 years, and the bulk of them range around 7-10.

      Now, granted, I have a circle of friends that skews heavily toward the LGBT side of the equation, which certainly skews the percentages to some degree, and yes, I do know a few who practice serial monogamy, with 1 to 2 year relationships the norm.

      Among the lesbians I know the percentage in long term relationships is even higher.

      June 5, 2012 at 2:26 pm |
  15. Dogwood

    Being friends is so much easier. This world is so confusing!!!! In other places in the world you can get ki-lled for being gay and christian!! Everyone deserves human rights!! I have always viewed marriage as a man and woman, and everyone else can live as they choose.....

    June 4, 2012 at 9:47 pm |
    • Cool

      Well said. Everyone can fight and nothing is solved. I think that our thoughts are not Gods thoughts. God loves the gay community. He longs for relationship with this community, so they can hear what He is saying from His heart and not all of the confusion down here. I can say this definition of marriage becoming open to gays is not His heart, though He cares; His heart wants to heal all of the pain and brokeness. People never represent God to well, it is way better to ask Him yourself what He thinks

      June 4, 2012 at 10:12 pm |
    • JWT

      gays obviously deserve marriage as a civil right.

      June 4, 2012 at 10:56 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh, look. Cool thinks he knows what God thinks.

      What a crock.

      June 4, 2012 at 10:57 pm |
    • Cool

      Here is the proof Tommy does not listen....I clearly said – don't listen to people – ask God yourself!!!!!!! I said my thoughts are NOT Gods thoughts!!! Wow – to many cups of coffee TT

      June 4, 2012 at 11:10 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Here's the proof you're a liar, dearie. You said: I can say this definition of marriage becoming open to gays is not His heart, though He cares; His heart wants to heal all of the pain and brokeness.

      Pretty hard to misconstrue that, dumbazz.

      June 4, 2012 at 11:43 pm |
  16. Shaker

    Interesting info Bob!!!! Thanks for sharing!!! :)

    June 4, 2012 at 9:43 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Ho hum. Another sock puppet. Why don't you answer the questions I asked Boob?

      June 4, 2012 at 9:44 pm |
    • Shaker

      Ummm what is a sock puppet and who is Boob? Getting hostile because someone finds a comment interesting?? Sounds like you are a terminal bully

      June 4, 2012 at 9:53 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Sounds like you're just Bob under another name. And if you're not and think Bob's comments are "interesting", you're a stupid and hateful as he is.

      June 4, 2012 at 10:58 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Sounds like you're just Bob under another name. And if you're not and think Bob's comments are "interesting", you're as stupid and hateful as he is.

      June 4, 2012 at 10:59 pm |
    • Wisdom

      Tom, you are doing a service to all believers, please continue your insanilty.

      June 5, 2012 at 2:02 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Wizdumb, please continue pretending you're anything but another iteration of herbie; it's amusing to watch you throw a hissy fit at every one of my posts. If they didn't gripe your azz, you'd ignore them and move on.

      June 5, 2012 at 10:13 am |
  17. Dogwood

    God loves every person on this planet incuding Tom Tom the Pipers son!!! Can't agree with ya'll on the marriage stuff, but Jesus loves you Tom....hang in there!!

    June 4, 2012 at 9:15 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      What's more important is, do you think that the LGBT community should be denied rights due to religious views?

      June 4, 2012 at 9:16 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Bob thinks gays should not be allowed to have a life, Dog. You agree?

      June 4, 2012 at 9:18 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      HG, I'm glad to see you.

      June 4, 2012 at 9:19 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      Hi Tom.

      June 4, 2012 at 9:21 pm |
    • Salty

      AAaahhh!!! Thank goodness you are here Hawaiiangayst – Tommy has been losing the arguments by the look of it. You can help now. Hurray

      June 4, 2012 at 9:41 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh? Well, you haven't posted yet, Salty, so get to it. Anything you have to burp up will most assuredly help my case.

      Ever get tired of changing your screen name so often? As in, every time you post?

      June 4, 2012 at 9:43 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Salty

      I think you either need to lay off the salt, or take a prozac.

      June 4, 2012 at 9:44 pm |
  18. Bob

    After much political pressure, a committee of the APA met behind closed doors in 1973 and voted to remove omosxuality as a mental disorder from the DSM-II. Opponents of this effort were given 15 minutes to protest this change, according
    to Dr. Jeffrey Satinover, in omoexuality and the Politics of Truth. Satinover writes that after this vote was taken, the decision was to be voted on by the entire APA membership. The National Gay Task Force purchased the APA’s mailing list and sent out a letter to the APA members urging them to vote to remove omoexuality as a disorder. No APA member was informed that the mailing had been funded by this omoexual activist group.This is after 3 years the gys had come in disrupted the meetings taken the microphone shouted down opposition and even bought a booth at the APA convention. At that time after the decision was made 60 percent of the APA left the membership. This decision has since opened the way for gays to marry adopt kids and even hold a life at all. This flew in the face of all the research done at the time that contradicted taking it off the list. This has also opened the way to reclassify every exual disorder to make it more acceptable. Again gays are 3 percent of the population that are controlling the laws of the people so that even though people vote the lawmakers say we have no rights. You a American citizen voted and the courts said you don't count. Local governments said you don't count when a majority of people don't want gy marriage and they vote in favor of it. Just a few facts. So now we get a solicitor telling us its ok to go against the word of God and approve gy marriage when the word in no way condones it and most medical reports don't support that its s good lifestyle.

    June 4, 2012 at 8:24 pm |
    • Hotpepper

      Thanks for the data Bob. Many just do not want to hear the truth. For your info Tom Tom I ran a child care centre and went to university to work with children that have special needs and behavior issues. The percentage of gay couples that actually have children is not high, so the ones that are struggling were a much higher stat.....so were a-buse issues. Maybe all of that is changing, but like I said...ask any social worker.

      June 4, 2012 at 8:46 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      No, HotP00p. I won't ask any "social worker", because the burden of proof is on YOU. YOU made the claim. Either produce the proof or be branded a liar.

      June 4, 2012 at 8:57 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      And your pal Boob is posting lies as well. This nonsense has been promulgated by hom0phobes for years. Boob is just another liar like yourself. You two will get along well. You're both idiots.

      June 4, 2012 at 8:59 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Boob, I really have to wonder how crazy you are. You seem to imagine all sorts of dire consequences were gay marriage to become legal throughout the US. Precisely what do you think will occur? Why hasn't it happened anywhere yet? Furthermore, why would you imagine that you should be able to vote to prevent a minority form having the same rights and privileges you do? It's called the tyranny of the majority and the founding fathers saw the danger of allowing it to occur.

      Where's your evidence that removing h0m0s3xuality as a mental disorder has caused any harm to anyone at all?

      "This decision has since opened the way for gays to marry adopt kids and even hold a life at all. " So, what, Booby Hatch, you think instead gays should be eliminated? You know, a guy with a funny little mustache attempted to do that a mere few decades ago.

      Ring a bell, ding-bat?

      I'll wait to see that list of all the dire consequences that have occurred since the APA did the correct thing. Go ahead, Boob, ball's in your court.

      June 4, 2012 at 9:08 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      "Again gays are 3 percent of the population that are controlling the laws of the people so that even though people vote the lawmakers say we have no rights."

      How are gays 'controlling the laws', Boob? Do you even know how our system of government works? It doesn't appear you do. I suggest you go back to 10th grade and take a civics class. You're woefully ill-informed.

      June 4, 2012 at 9:10 pm |
    • Cool

      Interesting!! They ask questions. You guys answer and then get called names and accused of lying. These are good points you have made, something to think over. So far there have not been to many blogs that are not religious, so its nice to hear some comments with different perspectives. Doesn't look like there is anyone to dialogue with though!!! hahahehehe

      June 4, 2012 at 9:10 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      And you're here why, exactly, "Cool"?

      June 4, 2012 at 9:11 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Come on, Boob. Waiting for your response. Hurry it up.

      June 4, 2012 at 9:48 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "a committee of the APA met behind closed doors in 1973 and voted to remove omosxuality as a mental disorder from the DSM-II. Opponents of this effort were given 15 minutes to protest this change, according
      to Dr. Jeffrey Satinover, in omoexuality and the Politics of Truth. "

      This is nothing but an outrageous and deliberate misrepresentation of what actually took place. The APA's Nomenclature Committee met in February of 1973. Among those present at the meeting, Dr. Seymour Halleck stressed that there was no scientific evidence supporting the theory that homosexuality was a developmental disorder. He stated that homosexuality should be considered a "common behavior variant." He stated that "deletion of the diagnosis of homosexuality is not only a humanistic step, it is dictated by the best scientific information available." Dr. Wardell Pomeroy, a collaborator with Kinsey, presented sections of the 1948 study that had been sharply critical of psychiatric orthodoxy. He suggested that psychiatry should have accepted those conclusion 25 years earlier and said "I have high hopes that even psychiatry can profit by its mistakes and can proudly enter the last quarter of the twentieth century." Dr. Alan Bell or the Institute for Sex Research at Indiana University presented his own work and that of Evelyn Hooker. He stated that well-adjusted homosexuals and heterosexuals have more in common than disturbed and well-adjusted persons of either sexual orientation. Charles Silverstein presented the work of many scientists showing that the DSM classification was not consistent with a scientific perspective. His presentation included the work of Freud, Evelyn Hooker, Alfred Kinsey, Ford and Beach, Marmor, Green, and Hoffman. In conclusion, Silverstein stated "I suppose what we're saying is that you must choose between the undocumented theories that have unjustly harmed a great number of people and continue to harm them and ... controlled scientific studies.. It is no sin to have made an error in the past, but surely you will mock the principles of scientific research upon which the diagnostic system is based if you turn your backs on the only objective evidence we have .

      I could go on and on with the real facts but I think we get the point. Duh!

      June 5, 2012 at 11:44 am |
  19. Hotpepper

    Sorry Tomis...this battle is real. She asked the question and it was answered. Aside from the high numbers of children in these unions being a-bused.....the real disaster on society willl yet to be seen if marriage becomes a free for all. Do you think polygamists have to right to marry as many very young girls as they choose???? Even 12 years old...hmmm – it happens all the time. If you don't realize what is going on in the political arena, you will not realize what is at stake and my guess is you have no idea

    June 4, 2012 at 6:44 pm |
    • efy

      @Hotpepper: Where do you get this information that there are high rates of abuse in "these unions?" Show me a study, show me some facts. Until then, you're just spouting ignorance and lies.

      June 4, 2012 at 7:46 pm |
    • Hotpepper

      Worked in childcare for fifteen years. Ask any social worker....there is no reason to tell lies, not trying to hurt anyone

      June 4, 2012 at 8:22 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      I don't believe a word of your posts, HotPo0p. There are statistics that show that children of gay couples are just as well-adjusted as those of straight couples and some that show that they actually do better on some standardized tests than children of straights.

      Unless you produce proof, you are a complete fraud.

      June 4, 2012 at 8:26 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Furthermore, you are disingenuous. Trying to obfuscate by bringing up child marriage as if the "informed consent" were not a requirement for any marriage is just plain idiotic and shows that you are either nuts or stupid. This isn't about polygamy and you know it. There is no "free-for-all" and you have yet to show a single fact that shows otherwise. You can't even come up with a single problem that has occurred in states in which gay marriage is already legal.

      But thanks for playing. I got a good laugh out of your phony claims and dire warnings.

      June 4, 2012 at 8:30 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh, yeah, and "worked in childcare for 15 years." Doing what? Changing diapers?

      I doubt you ever did anything that wasn't a minimum wage job and required no education whatsoever.

      June 4, 2012 at 8:31 pm |
  20. myweightinwords

    I wonder if it is possible to discuss this topic without anyone using disparaging language. Actually, I know it is possible as I've seen it done.

    I am neither Christian nor gay. I am a bi-s-exual, Pagan woman with friends from many faiths and many s.e.xualities. I live in a country where religion does not rule and where individual rights are held supreme.

    Given these truths, and recognizing that the population of the country is made up of a very diverse set of people covering many religions, faiths, creeds, colors, races, nationalities, ethnicity and s.e.xual orientation, offer an argument against equality for every citizen that is NOT based in religion.

    June 4, 2012 at 3:13 pm |
    • Hotpepper

      Marriage has always been defined between a man and a woman – for hundreds of years...until now. In the supreme court there is currently a brother and sister who are fighting to be married. If this definition is changed – what is stopping the polygamists and others from demanding they be included in this fight????? Then we have Nambla who believe that s-ex with children should be allowed, and there should be no age of consent. The belief is that children should be able to "express themselves" s-exually. There is a line in the middle of the highway.....if you move to one side it looks like Iran....if you move to the other side it looks like parts of the world I will not mention. I could go on and on here....with stats and figures.....but this is a pretty big can of worms

      June 4, 2012 at 6:30 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Ahh, the slippery slope fallacy. You're really lame.

      This is not about children, siblings or animals marrying, and you know it. Stop with the stupid attempts to obfuscate.

      Marriage has NOT always been "between a man and woman". Marriage has been redefined many times since man walked upright. It will continue to evolve long after you're nothing but dust.

      June 4, 2012 at 6:32 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Furthermore, what the eff are you talking about? Gay marriage is legal already and has been for some time in Canada and in several states in the US as well as in a number of other countries. Can you point to ANY disaster that's occurred as a result? Fire and brimstone? People "turning gay"? Are empires crumbling?

      Come ON. Your scenario is just silly.

      June 4, 2012 at 6:35 pm |
    • Wisdom

      Do these groups ever take any responsibility for why people feel the way they do?? Seriously, come on, what do you think the average person has read about these groups in the last twenty years??? Anything wholesome or heartwarming??

      June 5, 2012 at 2:19 am |
    • Wisdom

      tom's gibberish is not welcome...

      June 5, 2012 at 2:21 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Couldn't care less if you 'welcome' anything, herbie.

      Your post isn't even decipherable. What 'groups' are you referring to? What makes you think you are in the majority on this issue? You do know you aren't any longer, don't you? Most people are in favor of gay marriage.

      June 5, 2012 at 10:15 am |
    • myweightinwords

      @hotpepper,

      Marriage has always been defined between a man and a woman – for hundreds of years...until now.

      Actually, it hasn't. Marriage has been a man and as many women as he can purchase, man and the daughter of a rich guy who pays the man to marry her, etc. The definition changes from culture to culture and over the course of centuries. Largely it has been a means of handing down t.itles and money to legitimate children. Same gender relationships have been a part of humanity since the beginning of time, and many cultures had recognition of those relationships before the Abrahamic religions began to spread.

      In the supreme court there is currently a brother and sister who are fighting to be married.

      And? How does that have bearing on same gender marriage? It has none. It is a completely different argument.

      If this definition is changed – what is stopping the polygamists and others from demanding they be included in this fight?????

      Honestly? Nothing. Want to know why? Because consenting adults should be allowed to enter whatever civil contract they desire, provided that arrangements are made that prevent undue abuse of the taxation and other benefits of said contract. And marriage is a civil contract.

      Then we have Nambla who believe that s-ex with children should be allowed, and there should be no age of consent. The belief is that children should be able to "express themselves" s-exually.

      P.edo.philia is not the same simply because children do not have the capacity to understand and give consent. Of course, the age a child becomes aware and capable of consent is nebulous at best. I've known 14 year olds who understand the world and the co.nsequences of s.exual activity better than some 20 year olds I know. Of course, those 14 year olds were raised by parents who were not afraid of educating their children regarding human s.exuality.

      And before you get ideas, I'm not saying that 14 year olds should be allowed to get married (although they can in some places) or have s.e.x. I'm saying that age of consent laws do not always work the way we would like them to.

      There is a line in the middle of the highway.....if you move to one side it looks like Iran....if you move to the other side it looks like parts of the world I will not mention. I could go on and on here....with stats and figures.....but this is a pretty big can of worms.

      Right here, in the middle of the road, there is a balance to be found. Equality. For all. Equal rights for all citizens to pursue happiness, as our founding fathers said...and if that happiness is found in wedded bliss with the person that they love, then it is our duty as Americans to ensure that they are afforded that right.

      June 5, 2012 at 11:11 am |
    • myweightinwords

      @Tom, Tom

      Ahh, the slippery slope fallacy. You're really lame.

      This is part of the problem. There is no need for the second statement. All it does is make it more difficult to have a rational conversation.

      This is not about children, siblings or animals marrying, and you know it. Stop with the stupid attempts to obfuscate.

      And again, the word "stupid" serves no purpose but to insult, which does not further attempts to communicate.

      No matter which side of an issue a person is on, when the default method of expression is insults and anger, conflict is the only reward. There can be no dialog, only arguing.

      June 5, 2012 at 11:15 am |
    • myweightinwords

      @Wisdom,

      Do these groups ever take any responsibility for why people feel the way they do?? Seriously, come on, what do you think the average person has read about these groups in the last twenty years??? Anything wholesome or heartwarming??

      I'm sorry, what groups are you referring to? I would engage in a conversation gladly, if I knew what you were referring to.

      June 5, 2012 at 11:17 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      MWW, I call a spade a spade. You can't fix stupid, and that's what these people are. They're not going to be convinced by reason-they don't have any grasp of reality.

      Sorry it bothers you, but you have a choice. Don't read what I write if you don't like it.

      Let me know when you make ANY headway with the likes of "Wisdom" and HotPepper using reason and tact.

      June 5, 2012 at 11:21 am |
    • myweightinwords

      For what it's worth, Tom, it isn't necessarily about you or them...it's about what is wrong with our current level of public dialog.

      Perhaps logic and reason and civil discourse will not change the minds of these two in particular, but it has changed minds before and will again.

      I ask myself what can be won by insults and aggression? The answer is always "nothing".

      I generally don't really read your posts because of your style of expression, however your comment here, where I was specifically attempting to communicate without falling to insults on either side led me to respond.

      June 5, 2012 at 2:16 pm |
    • Wisdom

      TWO CONSENTING ADULTS DON'T AFFECT ANYONE ELSE, LOOK AT THE PLANET. EVERYTHING WE DO AFFECTS SOMEONE ELSE...OUR CULTURE IS FORMED FROM THE STANDARDS ALLOWED. LOOK WHAT IS ON THE COMPUTER, WAS IT THERE 30 YEARS AGO??

      June 5, 2012 at 4:23 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      In what ways, Wizdummy? Be specific and provide sources for your claims. I can hardly wait.

      June 5, 2012 at 7:30 pm |
    • Wisdom

      Sources??? Tommyboy look at the favorites list on your own computer, probably gagworthy!!!

      June 5, 2012 at 10:46 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Ahh. So you can't manage to produce anything to back up your claims? Thanks for admitting it! I admire your honesty. I'd have been disappointed if you'd pretend you actually had any facts, when that would have shown you to be a liar.

      June 5, 2012 at 10:49 pm |
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228
Advertisement
About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.