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Editor's Note: Mark Osler is a Professor of Law at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
By Mark Osler, Special to CNN
I am a Christian, and I am in favor of gay marriage. The reason I am for gay marriage is because of my faith.
What I see in the Bible’s accounts of Jesus and his followers is an insistence that we don’t have the moral authority to deny others the blessing of holy institutions like baptism, communion, and marriage. God, through the Holy Spirit, infuses those moments with life, and it is not ours to either give or deny to others.
A clear instruction on this comes from Simon Peter, the “rock” on whom the church is built. Peter is a captivating figure in the Christian story. Jesus plucks him out of a fishing boat to become a disciple, and time and again he represents us all in learning at the feet of Christ.
During their time together, Peter is often naïve and clueless – he is a follower, constantly learning.
After Jesus is crucified, though, a different Peter emerges, one who is forceful and bold. This is the Peter we see in the Acts of the Apostles, during a fevered debate over whether or not Gentiles should be baptized. Peter was harshly criticized for even eating a meal with those who were uncircumcised; that is, those who did not follow the commands of the Old Testament.
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Peter, though, is strong in confronting those who would deny the sacrament of baptism to the Gentiles, and argues for an acceptance of believers who do not follow the circumcision rules of Leviticus (which is also where we find a condemnation of homosexuality).
His challenge is stark and stunning: Before ordering that the Gentiles be baptized Peter asks “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
None of us, Peter says, has the moral authority to deny baptism to those who seek it, even if they do not follow the ancient laws. It is the flooding love of the Holy Spirit, which fell over that entire crowd, sinners and saints alike, that directs otherwise.
My Take: Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality
It is not our place, it seems, to sort out who should be denied a bond with God and the Holy Spirit of the kind that we find through baptism, communion, and marriage. The water will flow where it will.
Intriguingly, this rule will apply whether we see homosexuality as a sin or not. The water is for all of us. We see the same thing at the Last Supper, as Jesus gives the bread and wine to all who are there—even to Peter, who Jesus said would deny him, and to Judas, who would betray him.
The question before us now is not whether homosexuality is a sin, but whether being gay should be a bar to baptism or communion or marriage.
Your Take: Rethinking the Bible on homosexuality
The answer is in the Bible. Peter and Jesus offer a strikingly inclusive form of love and engagement. They hold out the symbols of Gods’ love to all. How arrogant that we think it is ours to parse out stingily!
I worship at St. Stephens, an Episcopal church in Edina, Minnesota. There is a river that flows around the back and side of that church with a delightful name: Minnehaha Creek. That is where we do baptisms.
The Rector stands in the creek in his robes, the cool water coursing by his feet, and takes an infant into his arms and baptizes her with that same cool water. The congregation sits on the grassy bank and watches, a gentle army.
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At the bottom of the creek, in exactly that spot, is a floor of smooth pebbles. The water rushing by has rubbed off the rough edges, bit by bit, day by day. The pebbles have been transformed by that water into something new.
I suppose that, as Peter put it, someone could try to withhold the waters of baptism there. They could try to stop the river, to keep the water from some of the stones, like a child in the gutter building a barrier against the stream.
It won’t last, though. I would say this to those who would withhold the water of baptism, the joy of worship, or the bonds of marriage: You are less strong than the water, which will flow around you, find its path, and gently erode each wall you try to erect.
The redeeming power of that creek, and of the Holy Spirit, is relentless, making us all into something better and new.
The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Mark Osler.
John glad your not my Pastor being so far off are you gay also?
"John glad your not my Pastor being so far off are you gay also?"
You are so clueless it's hysterical if someone doesn't agree with your prejudice bigoted mindset they're gay. Wow are you an idiot.
Bob, do you really think only people who are gay are concerned about this issue? If that were the case, then you must be gay, too.
Many people argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.
Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.
There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.
Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.
Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?
Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).
That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex
Ok we get it....you like to wear pink dresses when on one is around......please
speaker was DR Berlin of Hopkins university who said he wants to completely support the goal of b4u act. One of the goals is standard on age consent is new and puritanical. In Europe it was always set at age 10 or 12. Ages of consent beyond that are new and strange. While I realize that the gay community is trying to distance themselves from this group the things that cannot be avoided is the professionals that attended this are the same ones that helped to take gays off the DSM. This doesn't give credibility that the Dr in front of their name should imply, which the gays use the credentials as a endorsement of their lifestyle.
"speaker was DR Berlin of Hopkins university who said he wants to completely support the goal of b4u act. One of the goals is standard on age consent is new and puritanical. In Europe it was always set at age 10 or 12. Ages of consent beyond that are new and strange. While I realize that the gay community is trying to distance themselves from this group the things that cannot be avoided is the professionals that attended this are the same ones that helped to take gays off the DSM. This doesn't give credibility that the Dr in front of their name should imply, which the gays use the credentials as a endorsement of their lifestyle."
The fact you don't understand the difference between a pedophile and a gay person make your post hysterical. You are SO clueless on this subject. By the way your the prejudice bigot the experts talk about when it comes to the gay issue.
Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience.
"which the gays use the credentials as a endorsement of their lifestyle."
Right there, you are showing your deep confusion. Gay folks lead ALL of the same lifestyles that straight folks lead. Even the Christian lifestyle.
There is no "Gay Lifestyle".
On August 17th of 2011 pro ped group b4u act sponsored a event in Baltimore attend by researchers professors and mental health professionals. Matt Barber had a press release he is vp of liberty Action counsel and DR Judith Reisman visiting law professor at Liberty University school of law.
Yeah, so? What of it? Do you think citing the fact there was a meeting is proof of something?
Jesus Christ, you're a friggin' moron.
Tom Tom stop behaving like a rabid animal....your making all the other red neck, gay, athiests look bad.....your embarassing them!!!
It's "YOU'RE". As in "You're making all the other redneck, toothless religtards look bad. You're embarrassing them by being an illiterate dolt, Yellow Feather."
Not "YOUR". "YOUR" would be used thusly: "Yellow Feather, your stupidity is only surpassed by your ignorance."
Oh, no single piece of our mental world is to be hermetically sealed off from the rest, and there is not a square inch in the whole domain of our human existence over which Christ, who is Sovereign over all, does not cry: 'Mine!
your christ has no domain over me – an absolute fact.
So your best argument is that animals in nature are gay thats pretty lame unless you are saying gays are animals also. It also dosent mean its normal it just means that it is the occasional problem. As for the APA if your ok then there is no problem with any deviant behavior with them and as for other health professionals they would loose their license if bad mouthed gays.Id like to know what your going to say when these high moral physcs say that peds are ok too.
"So your best argument is that animals in nature are gay thats pretty lame unless you are saying gays are animals also. It also dosent mean its normal it just means that it is the occasional problem. As for the APA if your ok then there is no problem with any deviant behavior with them and as for other health professionals they would loose their license if bad mouthed gays.Id like to know what your going to say when these high moral physcs say that peds are ok too."
Thanks for proving to the world you have a reading comprehension problem. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience.
Notice the part where it states "several decades of research and clinical experience." By the way it's not just the APA that is stating it's NORMAL. Duh. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
By the way humans are part of the animal kingdom. LOL! So yes it's found throughout nature.
Bob, all major medical professional organizations concur that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed, from gay to straight or otherwise. The American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and European Psychological, Psychiatric, and Medical Associations all agree with this, as does the World Health Organization and the medical organizations of Japan, China, and most recently, Thailand. Furthermore, attempts to change one's sexual orientation can be psychologically damaging, and cause great inner turmoil and depression.
The scientific evidence of the innateness of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism is overwhelming, and more peer-reviewed studies which bolster this fact are being added all the time. Science has long regarded sexual orientation – and that's all sexual orientations, including heterosexuality – as a phenotype. Simply put, a phenotype is an observable set of properties that varies among individuals and is deeply rooted in biology. For the scientific community, the role of genetics in sexuality is about as "disputable" as the role of evolution in biology.
On the second point, that there is no conclusion that there is a "gay gene," they are right. No so-called gay gene has been found, and it's highly unlikely that one ever will. This is where conservative Christians and Muslims quickly say "See, I told you so! There's no gay gene, so being gay is a choice!"
The fact that a so-called "gay gene" has not been discovered does not mean that homosexuality is not genetic in its causation. This is understandably something that can seem a bit strange to those who have not been educated in fields of science and advanced biology, and it is also why people who are not scientists ought not try to explain the processes in simple black-and-white terms. There is no gay gene, but there is also no "height gene" or "skin tone gene" or "left-handed gene." These, like sexuality, have a heritable aspect, but no one dominant gene is responsible for them.
Many genes, working in sync, contribute to the phenotype and therefore do have a role in sexual orientation. In many animal model systems, for example, the precise genes involved in sexual partner selection have been identified, and their neuro-biochemical pathways have been worked out in great detail. A great number of these mechanisms have been preserved evolutionarily in humans, just as they are for every other behavioral trait we know (including heterosexuality).
There are many biologic traits which are not specifically genetic but are biologic nonetheless. These traits are rooted in hormonal influences, contributed especially during the early stages of fetal development. This too is indisputable and based on extensive peer-reviewed research the world over. Such prenatal hormonal influences are not genetic per se, but are inborn, natural, and biologic nevertheless.
Humans are part of the animal kingdom, Dear.
We share a vast majority of our DNA with them, by God's design.
Bob, you really are beyond ignorant. You're actually bordering on criminally stupid.
They are grasping at straws Bob. Spin Spin Spin.....Trying to make it normal, trying to make it scientific, trying to make it spiritual.....its sad. This omos-exual choice will never be the intent of creation – never
The author of this article is not a christian. If this author was christian, he would know about Gods' Laws and the ten commandments. Just because you say you are christian, does not mean you are actually following the words of Christ. This author needs to go to more theology classes at St Thomas, a catholic university I might add.
Which of the 10 commandments says "Thou shalt not marry a dude, if you be a dude also"? I do know one of the commandments forbids working on the seventh day, and this was interpreted by some as forbidding you to spit in the ground, because that was "doing yardwork", yet we don't condemn people for mowing a lawn or building a fence on Sunday. And I know Jesus himself talked about loving others as you want to be loved, yet some would rather condemn those who don't hold their exact beliefs.
So please, don't claim that your specific interpretation of selected Biblical texts is in line with God's word. "Judge not lest ye be judged." As a Christian, I'm astonished how many judgemental christians I meet acting in "God's name". Let God be the judge, and try loving humanity and living a holy life. If something is wrong, God will decide, and I believe he's going to surprise many, many people on what he deems right and wrong.
gay marriage is "more animal" than animal..why ? have you ever heard male mates with male or female with female in animal kingdom ? have you ever heard there's any abortion issue in animal kingdom ?? the Bible tells us of mankind sliding backwards morally in end times..really, even animal is "more civilized" than man, and our President who confessed that he is a Christian knows nothing about the Words of God..and strongly support LGBT lifestyle that plunges this country to even deeper into moral-decadence...let not even single American vote for him no more !! vote for Godly candidate that will lead America back to GOD !!
"have you ever heard male mates with male or female with female in animal kingdom ? have you ever heard there's any abortion issue in animal kingdom ?? the Bible tells us of mankind sliding backwards morally in end times..really, even animal is "more civilized" than man, and our President who confessed that he is a Christian knows nothing about the Words of God..and strongly support LGBT lifestyle that plunges this country to even deeper into moral-decadence...let not even single American vote for him no more !! vote for Godly candidate that will lead America back to GOD !!"
LMAO – over 1500 other species have been documented in having gay relationships. It just goes to show your unfounded prejudice is based on lies and NOT real facts. LOL! By the way our country has gotten more moral over the years not the other way around. DUH! Christians first came here murdered the Native Americans and stole their land, kidnapped African Americans to enslave them, treated women like crap. Now African Americans and women have their civil rights, that is becoming more moral! Duh! Gays deserve their civil rights to protect there famlies. The experts have stated heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
Hermann, The only reason (REASON) the "End Times" slogan threat works is that each one of you is only here on this planet for 80-90 years. So you believers get to rant about "End Times' during your lovely little lives, then pop off and leave your scripture for the next crop of "End Timers" that you have brainwashed in your churches. Does that make sense to you? Can you see how dreadfully selfish you are, painting your faith as a virtue, when it is actually a tool of dread and torture, wrecking the actual lives that might have been lived in joy on THIS EARTH. How dare you ditch this existence as piffle, and promise everyone that, if they do what YOU say, they'll have a better time at some other party on some other planet!!
Well what I recall is how this country was formed by the majority casting votes and that being the law of the land. Now Tommy boy we have the tyranny of the minority. Kinda like the one percenters only the gay side of the story.
The laws change with the time - black/white marriages were illegal not so long ago. The only thing that stays CONSTANT is CHANGE !
Well Bob, you recall wrong. This nation was founded on the concept of protecting the minority from the tyranny of the majority.
"Well what I recall is how this country was formed by the majority casting votes and that being the law of the land. "
You realize your showing your stupidity about how our country was founded and works. Al Gore got the majority vote back in 2004 but George W won because he had more electoral votes. But since you're so clueless you probably have no idea what I am talking about. LOL!
So you were too lazy or too stupid to actually find out the history and learn about the "tyranny of the majority", Boob? Figures. You don't seem like much more than a high school dropout.
Had the founders not foreseen the problem with a tyranny of the majority, you stupid git, blacks would still be slaves and women would still be unable to vote.
Moron.
I thought the majority of the people made the laws in this country. I forgot since its the courts that make the laws now regardless of what the majority want that's why the gay agenda goes to court and buys politicians. I wonder what it feels like to know you have to go to court to enforce your way as the minority on the rest of the people. I love the fact that the gay agenda plays on the emotion of the people as the underdog, denied their rights yet really don't give a hoot about them. I also have to wonder who are the people financing this gay agenda. Follow the money and see what turns up. As for good parents I have already posted info on gays lifestyle which reflects on parents. But there is a problem with the reports coming out that the gay community is citing extolling the gay parents. The problems include seriously flawed research lack of proper control inadequate sample size bias on sample selections. AAp committees when the report was published that said gay households were no different that straight had 75 percent of the pediatricians disagree with the report. My sympathies go out to the medical and care giver professions that see this on a daily basis and cannot report it because of hate crime or losing their job, gays using the laws to enforce a way of life on people and claiming bias. look at the Cameron and Cameron studies published in 1998 bigger sample and longer one. How could a real study be done in the few years gays have been allowed to marry?
You forgot? You don't recall the "tyranny of the majority"?
Then you're an idiot.
Did you imagine that gays haven't been having and raising children until recently? What are you, an idiot?
Oh, wait. Never mind. I forgot I was talking to Boob the MORON.
Courts don't make laws. Courts rule on the constîtutionality of laws.
". I wonder what it feels like to know you have to go to court to enforce your way as the minority on the rest of the people. I love the fact that the gay agenda plays on the emotion of the people as the underdog, denied their rights yet really don't give a hoot about them. I also have to wonder who are the people financing this gay agenda. Follow the money and see what turns up. As for good parents I have already posted info on gays lifestyle which reflects on parents. But there is a problem with the reports coming out that the gay community is citing extolling the gay parents. The problems include seriously flawed research lack of proper control inadequate sample size bias on sample selections. AAp committees when the report was published that said gay households were no different that straight had 75 percent of the pediatricians disagree with the report. My sympathies go out to the medical and care giver professions that see this on a daily basis and cannot report it because of hate crime or losing their job, gays using the laws to enforce a way of life on people and claiming bias. look at the Cameron and Cameron studies published in 1998 bigger sample and longer one. How could a real study be done in the few years gays have been allowed to marry?"
Duh the have proven that what was written in the past about were done by bias and prejudice people, that includes the writers of your bible. I want you to cite the source of all the lies you have told on this post because the exact opposite has been shown by the experts.
Social science has shown that the concerns often raised about children of lesbian and gay parents—concerns that are generally grounded in prejudice against and stereotypes about gay people—are unfounded. Overall, the research indicates that the children of lesbian and gay parents do not differ from the children of heterosexual parents in their development, adjustment, or overall well-being. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
A law that defines marriage as between a man and a woman was found unconstitutional by a federal judge in New York on Wednesday 6/6/2012 because it improperly interferes with states' rights to regulate marriage.
The ruling by Manhattan federal court judge Barbara Jones followed a decision last week by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 1st Circuit in Boston that concluded the Defense of Marriage Act discriminates against gay couples.
Judge Jones became the fifth judge to find the 1996 law unconstitutional, adding weight to the demands of law makers and activists who want the law repealed.
In summing up: 1. Until the last few decades, marriage has at all times and in all places, involved the union of a man and a woman. The onus is on those wishing change such a firmly-founded custom to provide a compelling reason to do so; or, in the alternative, to demonstrate that the world has changed to such an extent that the old custom has lost its merit. 2. There is no compelling reason to change the traditional definition of marriage. A utilitarian argument from necessity, which holds that "gay marriage" is a necessary stepping-stone to a desirable form of polygamy and some form of polygamy is inevitable, is contrary to the "gay-marriage" which holds that there is no connection whatsoever with polygamy. 3. The Bible cannot be used to build a case for or against "gay marriage." Any argument that can be made can be demolished by a knowledgeable opponent in an instant. 4. "Gay marriage" will continue to grow and spread. The opposition is weak, unfocussed and disorganized; to say nothing of the wealth and political connections enjoyed by the "gay" community. 5. Ignoring the "silent majority" could be a grave political error. In Canada, the party that ruled through most of its history won three magnificent majorities then began toying with "gay marriage" and formalized it in an arrogant manner; today it is wallowing in third place.
In summing up:
There is no clear and compelling reason to withhold civil rights from gay folks that straight folks have.
The only reason(s) raised are all variants of "my version of an invisible magical skydaddy wants me to think gays are icky". Sorry, but that is not going to cut it in our secular nation.
Let's agree that the "gay" lifestyle is natural, healthy and moral; there are plenty of attractive, articulate and successful "gay" people saying so. Let,s also agree that "gay" couples should have their civil rights respected. We're still left with the problem of what those civil rights are. We could go along with Canada and make no distinction between same-gender and complementary- gender couples in marriage or we could, like every other jurisdiction I know of, place limitations on same-gender married couples with respect to adoption of children, sponsoring of alien spouses, and so on. Of course, "gay" couples should have the same tax benefits, pension and survivor benefits, and so on as their counterpart. It seems to me that the whole issue could be handled better by having an independent registration system for "gay" and "straight" couples.
So you think gay folks should have some rights, just not equal rights?
Amendment 14, Section 1 – All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
So what is your basis for deciding which rights gay folks can have, and which rights they can't have? Also, what are your particular qualifications for deciding who gets which rights?
Maybe I should use this opportunity to declare that I have decided that I have the right to decide which civil rights folks born left-handed can have. I also declare that my 2 sons, both over 21 years of age, are to have the rights to decide which civil rights folks born green-eyed may have, and which rights folks born with red-hair can have.
"It seems to me that the whole issue could be handled better by having an independent registration system for "gay" and "straight" couples."
They tried to do that with African Americans and whites but it only proved that they still weren't equal.
Primewonk,
You can post the Const.itution all you want, but only the Supreme Court has authority interpret it. So your opinion really doesn't matter. We shall see what the Court decides.
@YeahRight
The American people will never accept ho-mos-exual relationships as equal with straight relationships.
"You can post the Const.itution all you want, but only the Supreme Court has authority interpret it. So your opinion really doesn't matter. We shall see what the Court decides."
This just in....A law that defines marriage as between a man and a woman was found unconstitutional by a federal judge in New York on Wednesday because it improperly interferes with states' rights to regulate marriage. The ruling by Manhattan federal court judge Barbara Jones followed a decision last week by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 1st Circuit in Boston that concluded the Defense of Marriage Act discriminates against gay couples.
LMAO! Ummm....you were saying? LOL!
I'm back. Primewonk, I don't think I said anything about inferior rights for some or superior rights for others; merely right being (slightly) adjusted by different contexts. Your examples are frivolous. YeahRight, you have used what in logic is called a "false analogy." I don't see how muddying the water makes thins clearer but I guess as in Chess, "If you hold the stronger position, simplify; if you hold the weaker position, complicate."
I wonder what Evangelical thinks of the SCOTUS's ruling on R v W. If you're willing to accept the court's ruling on that matter, Evan, then are you also willing to accept its ruling on this issue?
Primewonk.....please keep being a mean, rude person, your just the type to represent the gay agenda. No discussion allowed just mean, sarcatic, unkind comments....yes you'll do nicely keep it up.
@ Arvoasitis – you wrote, "... or we could, like every other jurisdiction I know of, place limitations on same-gender married couples with respect to adoption of children, sponsoring of alien spouses, and so on"
However, you then said, "I don't think I said anything about inferior rights for some or superior rights for others; merely right being (slightly) adjusted by different contexts."
How in the world is placing limitations on the rights of same sèx married couples that are not placed on opposite sèx married couples not inferior?
"The American people will never accept ho-mos-exual relationships as equal with straight relationships."
Many already have since they are allow to marry in several states already, plus more and more courts are ruling the defense of marriage act is unconstitutional. Duh!
Primewonk: There is no such thing as an absolute right. Any right can be limited, usually when it is at cross-purposes with a fundamental universal value or goes seriously against the public interest. All I'm saying is that we have to look at everything with an open mind. In the end, it will be the legislators and their experts who decide whether "gay" marriage is legally indistinguishable from "straight" marriage. Hypothetically, If Homeland Security were to decide that the sponsorship of spouses in "gay" marriage significantly increases the possibility of terrorists infiltrating the United States, the ability to sponsor spouses would be affected in some way.
Arvoasitis – you cannot withhold a set of civil rights from one group of US citizens while granting them to another group of US citizens with a clear and compelling reason. So far, after all these years, aftyer all these hundreds of thousands of posts, the only reasons to come forward are all based on, "My invisible, magical, mythical, skydaddy wants me to think gays are icky". This is NOT a valid clear and compelling reason to discriminate.
Primewonk, let's try it this way. All thinking involves distinctions and discrimination. Making a distinction involves drawing a boundary that sets something apart from everything else. Thus, we can agree that there is a distinction between a "gay" couple and a "straight" couple (otherwise "gay" and "straight" would be superfluous). Discrimination involves giving value to a distinction. As I understand it, your valuation gives both kinds of couples precise equality in everything; I am not so sure. Consider the Olympians. Male and female athletes have equal rights in certain respects yet are required to compete in separate groups in most events. Is this an evil comparable to racial discrimination?
"it will be the legislators and their experts who decide whether "gay" marriage is legally indistinguishable from "straight" marriage"
Recognized federal civil rights law in the United States is grounded in the U.S. Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court. By this standard, marriage has long been established as a civil right.
The operative constitutional text is section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment, which was ratified in 1868. The relevant passages read as follows:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
The U.S. Supreme Court first applied this standard to marriage in Loving v. Virginia (1967), where it struck down a Virginia law banning interracial marriage.
@ Arvoasitis – people are born gay. People are born straight. And some are born bi and transgendered. Marriage is a civil contract. Marriage is a civil right. Gay folks are US citizens. US citizens are entîtled to equal protection under the law. US citizens are entîtled to the same civil rights, unless there is a clear and compelling reason.
Neither you, nor any of the ignorant, hômophobic, bigots, have come forth with a clear and compelling reason to prevent a group of US citizens from having the right to marry. Neither you, nor any of the ignorant, hômophobic, bigots, have come forth with a clear and compelling reason to legally discriminate against a group of US citizens.
Again, "My magical, mythical, invisible, skydaddy, wants me to think gays are icky" is NOT a clear and compelling reason to discriminate against gay folks.
If you do have a clear and compelling reason to legally discriminate against gay folks, why won't you just post it, so we can shoot it down and move on?
PEOPLE ARE NOT BORN GAY, GAY PEOPLE DO NOT WANT THIS SAID EITHER... ASK THEM. tHE STATISTIC IS THAT 87% OF GAY PEOPLE WERE S-EXUALLY ABUSED, THOSE ARE THE ONES KNOWN ABOUT, THE FIGURE IS PROBABLY MUCH HIGHER. EVERY GAY PERSON I KNOW HAS BEEN ABUSED...ELLEN FINALLY ADMITTED IT AS WELL. THIS IS EXTREMELY SAD AND TRAGIC.....BUT THERE IT IS...
When all is said and done, what we are observing is a phenomenon referred to as a "paradigm shift." It involves replacing one unquestioned assumption with another. It is a time of turmoil that comes to an end when the older generation (supporter of the old paradigm) dies off and is replaced be a generation indoctrinated into the new paradigm. (For comparison, a similar phenomenon is happening with respect to simplification of the German grammar. No one is trying to teach the new grammar to the old folks but the new grammar is the only one being taught in the schools. Eventually, the old generation will pass on, the old grammar will end up in the dust bin of history, and the paradigm shift will be complete.)
The criteria for adoption was stability financially and commitment wise, good loving male and female parents this has all been thrown out the window so gays could adopt. Rosie O Don is a poster child for gay adoption while we have parents arrested and children taken on unsubstantiated accusations from anyone in the family. Felons cannot adopt with over 40 million of them in the US yet gays adopt.
"The criteria for adoption was stability financially and commitment wise, good loving male and female parents this has all been thrown out the window so gays could adopt. Rosie O Don is a poster child for gay adoption while we have parents arrested and children taken on unsubstantiated accusations from anyone in the family. Felons cannot adopt with over 40 million of them in the US yet gays adopt."
The experts have proven gays to be good parents. Duh!
Social science has shown that the concerns often raised about children of lesbian and gay parents—concerns that are generally grounded in prejudice against and stereotypes about gay people—are unfounded. Overall, the research indicates that the children of lesbian and gay parents do not differ from the children of heterosexual parents in their development, adjustment, or overall well-being.
Being gay is not a crime, bob, and gay couples can be great parents. There are over a half million kids in foster care in this country. It's a shame that people like you try to deprive them of good homes because of your personal hatred and cowardice.
Both of you are amazing how about ones that didn't qualify already to adopt and now they broadened the standards what about all those kids that could have had a good home since you bring this up? Why dont we let felons adopt or the way things are going peds Whats wrong with them adopting if Im so mean? The same argument could be said of the felons. I dont hate gays at all, I do know some gays that would make great parents but, to me the problem is how do you separate out the good gays? Since without real research gays were taken off the DSM list yet the stats still dont prove to good for gays here in the US and abroad. Like I said Rosie was able to adopt has since gone through a split and who knows who is going to be her next companion. How many couples in the past were denied custody based on not having a solid marriage yet stats now available show a transitory relationship standards for most gays? Your life was laid bare and open to any scrutiny that the social workers felt was needed. Many hearts were broken and much money spent to adopt because they were denied maybe for haveing a blemish in the past or maybe someone the workers interviewed didnt give a good report. Yet today that standard because of accommodating gays is gone, not done to accommodate kids or the poor families that wanted kids before. You say Im hateful not true Im just against double standard and unfairness and bending of moral standards that didnt need to be bent. The Im ok your ok philosophy extended to this situation is not appropriate just because some psych says so.
Bob, all you need to do is post the citations to the peer-reviewed scientific research that shows gays do not make good parents.
Of course, you and the other hômophobic, fundamentalist, îdiots, have been asked to do this for years. Yet, neither you, nor any other hômophobic, fundamentalist, îdiot, has done this.
I wonder why?
"I dont hate gays at all, I do know some gays that would make great parents but, to me the problem is how do you separate out the good gays?"
I have worked in the foster care system for years and I can tell that straights are the ones that do horrific things to children. The reason you don't know about it is because in legally protecting the child you end up protecting these bad parents and our society is clueless about how horrific some of it is. I had to leave because is saw the really dark side of humanity and yes many of these people where Christians. I am not talking about 1 or 2 It's in the thousands and that was just in the one state I was in. Your prejudice and bigotry is based on lies which makes you a pathetic human being.
Well, Boob, here a solution for you: If you're bothered that gay couples are adopting children, then you should beat them to the punch and get there first. If straights like you adopted all those unwanted kids, there wouldn't be any left for gays.
Why don't you put up or shut up, Boob?
Well, Boob, here's a solution for you: If you're bothered that gay couples are adopting children, then you should beat them to the punch and get there first. If straights like you adopted all those unwanted kids, there wouldn't be any left for gays.
There is no condemnation in gay/lesbian celibate relations. Support gay/lesbian couples living clean, celibate lives. Not all gays/lesbians and single straights fornicate. As they practice celibacy and abstinence please honor and respect them. This is a challenge that Jesus issued to all of us in Matthew 19:12 when he said, "He who is able to receive it, let him receive it." Yours in Christ, Douglas
And for the folks who choose to not worship your sick, sadistic, version of god?
"There is no condemnation in gay/lesbian celibate relations. Support gay/lesbian couples living clean, celibate lives. Not all gays/lesbians and single straights fornicate. As they practice celibacy and abstinence please honor and respect them."
Nowhere in your bible does your god condemn the saved loving long term realtionship of a gay couple. Gays deserve to have the same intimate loving relationships as straights only prejudice bigots like you would make such stupid statements. The experts have shown that being gay is NOT a mental illness, it's NOT a choice and it CAN'T be voluntarily changed. All you are doing is using your god to justify your hatred for this minority group, you are pathetic.
There is no reason for them to be celibate.
Douglas, Forcing others to be celibate is the work of a sadist. Do you actually find meaning in this line of work?
Gays and pedohiles want to change the age of consent to 12
Utter nonsense. But you already knew that, and chose to post a lie anyway. Desperation is such an ugly thing.
Equating gay with pedophilia. The age old straw man of the truly desperate without nothing of substance to say.
Report for the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, Ruth Bader Ginsberg when she worked for the ACLU made the recommendation that age of consent be lowered to 12
Haha maybe you should keep up with what the gays and pedophiles are saying these days, HawaiiGuest and midwest rail.
Except, of course, what Bob wrote is a lie. A lie told and retold by these ignorant cretins. A lie that started with a smear campaign by Lindsey Graham during Ginsburg's confirmation hearing. Ginsburg's paper was on removing gender bias in federal statutes. She used as an example an existing wording and simply changed the gender wording to show what it should be. She did not comment on the rest of the existing wording.
Of course, fundiot cretins like Bob don't bother posting the actual truth.
"Gays and pedohiles want to change the age of consent to 12"
Wow the lies that you come up with are hysterical you can't even follow one of the basic ten commandments in the bible. What an idiot.
Bob, God doesn't like people who lie. Whether the lie is intentional or due to ignorance, it is still a lie.
Bob, that is a hard one to generalize with. We have to stay on a track of truth here, there are some gay people who are involved with those groups and many that are not. Abuse is certainly not limited to gays or heteros-exuals, they are their own category...sick people. But today there is no line or boundary s-exually, people can't see that when one perversion is allowed to come in the door, all of them get to come in. Marriage between a man and a woman is the original plan, still works. Children have a much better chance raised in this unit. I work in public schools, I know.
Bob, please close your bedroom door while you fantasize.
When Moses was given the law in Leviticus do you and called omoexuality destestble do you really think He changed His mind? Do you think He didnt understand the difference between relationship and prosti? Or that He didnt understand gays feelings?
"Do you think He didnt understand the difference between relationship and prosti? Or that He didnt understand gays feelings?"
The experts proved that until the 1970's everything that was written in the past about gay people were done by bias and prejudice people, that includes the writers of your bible DUH! The word homosexual hadn't even been invented yet. DUH!
If you provide edivence as to its absurdity I would appreciate it. Let's take the one partial rebuttal given. Can three adults give consent? Four, five, six, etc.? Why can't the age of consent (adulthood) be changed to 16? What is so magical about 18?
You're asking US to prove a negative. YOU made the claim that the slippery slope is " inevitable ". Prove it. And my partial rebuttal only addressed your claim regarding bestiality. Care to retract that straw man argument yet ?
Most of your argumentation consists of empty phrases with a bit of bullying thrown in. A technique to be sure, but not very effective.
To prove my point I will just stick to the issue at hand. Legalization of contra*ception led to legalization of abor*tion which led us to the debate on gay marraige, Can you see the common thread through all of these? There is not much more of a slippery slope than this.
In the Christian West, the definition of marriage has always been:
1. Two people 2. Age of Adulthood 3. One man and one woman
Once the definition of marriage is changed in society by removing #3, 1 and 2 will go as well. It is only a matter of time. I encourage all to give this serious thought. Do you want two women to marry a man, a man to marry his goat, and so on? And then two minors (or a minor and an adult). Namblaites will then have a field day. (Heaven help us all.) This will happen eventually (not immediately, but it is the inevitable consequence), because once this boundary is crossed, there is no legitimate argument for stopping there. The only way to prevent this is not to cross the boundary in the first place. Refuse to accept so-called "gay marriage"!
True marriage in the eyes of God can only consist of one adult man and woman, irregardless of whether people try to say otherwise.
Delusional nonsense. There is no slippery slope. Why are S.S.M. opponents so obsessed with bestiality ? When your goat can give legal consent to a contract ( hint – never ) then get back to me.
I personally do not care what your god thinks. The matter is one of civil rights period. And the slippery slope argument is utterly absurd.
1. For you. A thought to consider without a typical ego response Accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior. You never know how soon is too late. Transcend the worldly illusion of enslavement. The world denounces truth.... Accepting Jesus Christ (for me) resulted in something like seeing a new color. You will see it .....but will not be able to clearly explain it to anyone else..... Its meant to be that way to transcend any selfism within you. Also... much the world arranges "surrounding dark matter into something to be debated" in such a way that protects/inflates the ego. The key is be present and transcend our own desire to physically see evidence. We don't know anyways by defending our own perception of dark matter. Currently.... most of us are constructing our own path that suits our sin lifestyle. Were all sinners. Knowing that we are is often an issue. But both Christians and non are sinners. We don't like to Let go and let god. We want control to some degree. This is what Jesus asks us to do. "Follow me". It's the hardest thing to do... but is done by letting the truth of scripture lead you (redemptive revelation)... as I said . Try reading Corinthians and see if it makes sense to you. Try it without a pre conceived notion of it being a fairy tale. See the truth... do we do what it says in today’s society... is it relevant... so many have not recently read and only hinge their philosophy on what they have heard from some other person...which may have been full of arrogance pride or vanity.. Look closely at the economy ponzi, look at how society idolizes Lust , greed , envy, sloth, pride of life, desire for knowledge, desire for power, desire for revenge, gluttony with food etc . Transcend the temporal world. Just think if you can find any truth you can take with you ....in any of these things. When you die your riches go to someone who will spend away your life..... You will be forgotten.... history will repeat itself.... the greatest minds knowledge fade or are eventually plagiarized..... your good deeds will be forgotten and only give you a fleeting temporary reward . your learned teachings are forgotten or mutated..... your gold is transferred back to the rulers that rule you through deception. Your grave will grow over . This is truth . Transcend your egoism and free yourself from this dominion of satan. Understand you are a sinner and part of the collective problem of this worldly matrix... Repent.... Repent means knowing (to change) Evidence follows faith. Faith does not follow evidence..... Faith. Above. Reason. In. Jesus. Christ. Faith comes by Reading or Hearing the word of god from the bible. Ask Jesus in faith for discernment and start reading the New Testament... You will be shocked when you lay down your preconceived notions and ....see and hear truth ... see how Christ sets an example ... feel the truth.... Read Ecclesiastes. Read Corinthians. You can’t transcend your own egoism by adapting a world philosophy/s to suit your needs. Seek the truth in Christ. Sell all your cleverness and purchase true bewilderment. You don't get what you want ....you get what you are in Christ. I promise this has been the truth for me. In Jesus christ . Think of what you really have to lose. ...your ego? Break the Matrix of illusion that holds your senses captive. Once you do . you too will have the wisdom of God that comes only through the Holy Spirit. Saved By grace through Faith. Just like seeing a new color.... can't explain it to a transient caught in the matrix of worldly deception. You will also see how the world suppresses this information and distorts it You're all smart people . I tell the truth. Its hard to think out of the box when earthly thinking is the box.
It’s a personal free experience you can do it free anytime. Don't wait till you are about to die.. START PUTTING YOUR TREASURES WHERE THEY REALLY MATTER >
It’s awesome… and it’s just between you and Jesus..
"A thought to consider without a typical ego response"
Your posts reek of ego especially since you keep posting this garbage over and over again. Duh! Your whole point then becomes moot. LOL!
The message of the modern perverts is simple; we should all abandon our virtue to join the endless pervasion circus; the promise: it will all set us 'free' somewhere in the future. 2012 and on, we see unfoldig the biggest moral scam ever played on humanity, or whatever is left of it, cos most members are sheer animals with animalistic desires. Totally PATHETIC.
"The message of the modern perverts is simple; we should all abandon our virtue to join the endless pervasion circus; the promise"
Obviously you don't have a clue on this subject so your prejudice and bigotry is not founded on the real truth. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
So what you are saying, G, is that you believe that bigotry and ignorance are virtues. How very sad. It's a good thing that there are a growing number of Americans with higher standards than yours.
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.