Editor's Note: Mark Osler is a Professor of Law at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
By Mark Osler, Special to CNN
I am a Christian, and I am in favor of gay marriage. The reason I am for gay marriage is because of my faith.
What I see in the Bible’s accounts of Jesus and his followers is an insistence that we don’t have the moral authority to deny others the blessing of holy institutions like baptism, communion, and marriage. God, through the Holy Spirit, infuses those moments with life, and it is not ours to either give or deny to others.
A clear instruction on this comes from Simon Peter, the “rock” on whom the church is built. Peter is a captivating figure in the Christian story. Jesus plucks him out of a fishing boat to become a disciple, and time and again he represents us all in learning at the feet of Christ.
During their time together, Peter is often naïve and clueless – he is a follower, constantly learning.
After Jesus is crucified, though, a different Peter emerges, one who is forceful and bold. This is the Peter we see in the Acts of the Apostles, during a fevered debate over whether or not Gentiles should be baptized. Peter was harshly criticized for even eating a meal with those who were uncircumcised; that is, those who did not follow the commands of the Old Testament.
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Peter, though, is strong in confronting those who would deny the sacrament of baptism to the Gentiles, and argues for an acceptance of believers who do not follow the circumcision rules of Leviticus (which is also where we find a condemnation of homosexuality).
His challenge is stark and stunning: Before ordering that the Gentiles be baptized Peter asks “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
None of us, Peter says, has the moral authority to deny baptism to those who seek it, even if they do not follow the ancient laws. It is the flooding love of the Holy Spirit, which fell over that entire crowd, sinners and saints alike, that directs otherwise.
My Take: Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality
It is not our place, it seems, to sort out who should be denied a bond with God and the Holy Spirit of the kind that we find through baptism, communion, and marriage. The water will flow where it will.
Intriguingly, this rule will apply whether we see homosexuality as a sin or not. The water is for all of us. We see the same thing at the Last Supper, as Jesus gives the bread and wine to all who are there—even to Peter, who Jesus said would deny him, and to Judas, who would betray him.
The question before us now is not whether homosexuality is a sin, but whether being gay should be a bar to baptism or communion or marriage.
Your Take: Rethinking the Bible on homosexuality
The answer is in the Bible. Peter and Jesus offer a strikingly inclusive form of love and engagement. They hold out the symbols of Gods’ love to all. How arrogant that we think it is ours to parse out stingily!
I worship at St. Stephens, an Episcopal church in Edina, Minnesota. There is a river that flows around the back and side of that church with a delightful name: Minnehaha Creek. That is where we do baptisms.
The Rector stands in the creek in his robes, the cool water coursing by his feet, and takes an infant into his arms and baptizes her with that same cool water. The congregation sits on the grassy bank and watches, a gentle army.
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At the bottom of the creek, in exactly that spot, is a floor of smooth pebbles. The water rushing by has rubbed off the rough edges, bit by bit, day by day. The pebbles have been transformed by that water into something new.
I suppose that, as Peter put it, someone could try to withhold the waters of baptism there. They could try to stop the river, to keep the water from some of the stones, like a child in the gutter building a barrier against the stream.
It won’t last, though. I would say this to those who would withhold the water of baptism, the joy of worship, or the bonds of marriage: You are less strong than the water, which will flow around you, find its path, and gently erode each wall you try to erect.
The redeeming power of that creek, and of the Holy Spirit, is relentless, making us all into something better and new.
The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Mark Osler.
Gays should not be allowed to marry....I can see this now. I would like to apologize for all of my filthy language to all on this blog. I have been wrong and nasty – and I am sorry. I will change my life and be kind to all people now. Thank-you salt and Bob for helping me to see the truth. I love all that you have to say
Oops. That was me. Sorry, I forgot to change my screen name. My bad.
No problem Tommy – glad to help!! Its sad though that you had to ruin everyones discussions, and it is also sad that you have to be so mean – instead of actually joining in
i have no life of my own so i like to come on here and make fun of believers. makes me feel important
I can tell a kindred spirit when I see one. Come and get me, Tommy! I'm hot!
Knock it off, Tommy, Tom. You're not funny!
NONE OF THE COMMENTS BELOW THAT ARE IGNORANT WERE WRITTEN BY SALT OR SALTNPEPPER. I HAVE BEEN CORRECTED BY CNN AND I AM SORRY FOR LYING AND CALLING NAMES ON THIS BLOG. I HAVE IMPERSONATED SEVERAL PEOPLE AND I AM SORRY FOR LYING.
AND I ALWAYS RITE EVERYTHING IN KAPITAL LEETERS.
I'm reposting this, simply because I want to add Salt's name to Bob's. You're equally stupid, illiterate, and wrong:
You are a dishonest person, Bob. You have lied and lied and then lied some more. You are asked direct questions and make one lame-azz excuse after another to avoid answering them. You claim you can cite studies but you don't. You pretend you can't figure out how to manage the internet, then proceed to use it to post nonsense that doesn't prove a thing you've asserted. The only bs here, Bob, is yours. You've been provided cites, sources, and reasons, and simply dismiss them all.
Then you pretend that you "have your reasons" but you won't discuss them here and now. Instead, you'll continue to blather and blow more scripture that you proceed to interpret to excuse your hatred and prejudice. You're nothing but an old, stupid, windbag who lies about anything and everything.
You're a great example of the sort of self-aggrandizing, sanctimonious "Christian" that no one would admire or emulate. You're a disgusting excuse for a human.
Thanks for proving it.
LOL Bob you just got obliterated on the interwebz
Hey, you lay off my lover. He's got the biggest dick here. I know, because I've tried them all on for size.
I have reported you to CNN for abuse TomTom....hope you don't mind. We can only hope they throw you off this blog
Are you another iteration of HS, AS-Salt? Filing false reports will get you sh!t-canned, you know.
When are you going to answer the question, Ass-alt? How does gay marriage affect you?
Why thank you tom Now I now its a honor to be called a idiot by you. Because also as the Bible says what does light have to do with darkness
Don't worry, Bob. I LOVES me some dark Bob-meat.
I now I spelled now rong, and I realize I am a idiot.
Don't you idiots get it? Gay marriage will be legal eventually, and your religious convictions will be powerless to prevent it.
No scriptures will matter. This is a civil issue, not a matter of belief.
But do keep on counting how many angels fit on the head of a pin. At least it will keep you busy and thus unaware of the day-to-day lives that go on without any help from your religious tantrums.
Yes we may not be able to prevent it....but we will try. The bible clearly tells us that in the last day – they will call evil – good and good – evil....it says sin will abound also....but whoever calls on Jesus will be saved
Oooh, I'm a-shakin'. You're a dolt, little dweeb. You can't even figure out how to threaten anyone effectively. What a hoot you idiots are.
Now summon all Israel to join me at Mount Carmel, along with the 450 prophets of Baal and the 400 prophets of Asherah who are supported by Jezebel.So Ahab summoned all the people of Israel and the prophets to Mount Carmel.Then Elijah stood in front of them and said, "How much longer will you waver, hobbling between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow Him! But if Baal is God, then follow him!" But the people were completely silent.Then Elijah said to them, "I am the only prophet of the LORD who is left, but Baal has 450 prophets. Now bring two bulls. The prophets of Baal may choose whichever one they wish and cut it into pieces and lay it on the wood of their altar, but without setting fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and lay it on the wood on the altar, but not set fire to it.Then call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the LORD. The god who answers by setting fire to the wood is the true God!" And all the people agreed. Then Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, "You go first, for there are many of you. Choose one of the bulls, and prepare it and call on the name of your god. But do not set fire to the wood. So they prepared one of the bulls and placed it on the altar. Then they called on the name of Baal from morning until noontime, shouting, "O Baal, answer us!" But there was no reply of any kind. Then they danced, hobbling around the altar they had made. About noontime Elijah began mocking them. "You'll have to shout louder," he scoffed, "for surely he is a god! Perhaps he is daydreaming, or is relieving himself. Or maybe he is away on a trip, or is asleep and needs to be wakened!" So they shouted louder, and following their normal custom, they cut themselves with knives and swords until the blood gushed out.They raved all afternoon until the time of the evening sacrifice, but still there was no sound, no reply, no response.Then Elijah called to the people, "Come over here!" They all crowded around him as he repaired the altar of the LORD that had been torn down.He took twelve stones, one to represent each of the tribes of Israel,and he used the stones to rebuild the altar in the name of the LORD. Then he dug a trench around the altar large enough to hold about three gallons. He piled wood on the altar, cut the bull into pieces, and laid the pieces on the wood. Then he said, "Fill four large jars with water, and pour the water over the offering and the wood.After they had done this, he said, "Do the same thing again!" And when they were finished, he said, "Now do it a third time!" So they did as he said, and the water ran around the altar and even filled the trench.At the usual time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that You are God in Israel and that I am Your servant. Prove that I have done all this at Your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that You, O LORD, are God and that You have brought them back to Yourself. Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the trench! And when all the people saw it, they fell face down on the ground and cried out, "The LORD—He is God! Yes, the LORD is God!"
Blessings Bob!! Great scriptures......you are a true man of the word
And by the way, Bob, I'm available if you'd like a nice ball massage. Call me anytime at 1-800-ISU-CKYU
This is obviously Tommy using my name and offering you a massage Bob...its ok Tommy you can use your own name when making such an offer.....
This is an imposter. I'm the real Salt, and I'd love to lick your balls, Bob.
I'm throbbing, Salt. Come and take me!
To evil Bob In all these cases God who brought the children of Israel out of Egypt and provided for them did miracles and gave them the law what not to do. Actually these were all before Christians times and were all Jewish also. In case you didn't know it is the same God different covenants.The people who God was dealing with like now were the ones that had false teachings and were actually teaching others to worship other gods. He had done many miracles for the children of Israel by this time and warned them not to marry their enemies but here were some that didn't listen. This was their punishment and the stopping of the evil both spiritual and people and the cleansing of Israel. This God doesn't do today but will deal with all when the judgement comes. As it was in those days the perverse spirits in people caused detestable acts. The gay community has had its share of detestable acts. They were also false teachers and were leading Gods people astray and teaching like the gay agenda today that its ok to do these things. Some will fall some will escape the snare of satan and live. But its never a good thing to lead Gods people astray with false teachings.
To evil Bob The scriptures you picked were really interesting in the fact that they dealt with evil spirits and in one a real person leading Gods people astray and doing evil acts and worshiping other gods, just like today. The last one you quoted was from Revelation and God was talking about Jezebel a person but also a spirit this is the first part of that scripture ,You are permitting that woman—that Jezebel who calls herself a prophet—to lead My servants astray. She teaches them to commit physical sin and to eat food offered to idols. Numbers 31 was also a interesting pick since it is also about worship and following and teaching to follow other gods, here is that explanation These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the Lord's people. in Deuteronomy the same story,he false prophets or visionaries who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who redeemed you from slavery and brought you out of the land of Egypt. Since they try to lead you astray from the way the LORD your God commanded you to live, you must put them to death.
Online translators will only get you so far. There are idioms, local and sayings/meanings unique to the time and all sorts of other ambiguities.
For example, there are several idioms that use the word “blue:”
“The blues” can refer to both a style of music and feeling sad.
If something occurs rarely, it is said to happen “once in a blue moon”, because a blue moon is two full moons in one month, which doesn’t happen often.
“Out of the blue” means something happens that was unexpected."
If someone today says, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a horse!" - does it really mean that?
Get over yourself with your personal, "accurate" translation claim.
sorry, wrong place - it was supposed to go as a reply below.
Get Real, this is so deep.....pychadelic man!! blue can be more than a color everyone!! Hurray
Have to agree with Judy, this is cutting edge Get Real. This is all a part of ABC – 123 interpretation class. But thanks for entertaining us
You are the one who recommended the online translators as "so easy" and the be-all and end-all, chum.
Exactly get real.
Here's another example. I know there is no Cantonese translation for the word consolidation. It would take several hundred words to adequately explain what a consolidation is in Cantonese, or else the person would not have a proper understanding. Online translators would not be able to do this. Therefore online translators aren't going to do the entire bible justice either.
Who needs tv with Jen and Get Real!! You guys – you get gold stars for hanging in there....its just that you wouldn't know what we (believers)...have availiable online for translation....would you? You keep arguing with me and its clear you just don't know what you are talking about
Well actually salt, my husband is Catholic (you know, the largest Christian denomination in the world) so I do know where 'believers' go for their information......
And at least I know how to spell available.....
Who, Greensh!t? Your husband? I concur. What a screaming banshee he's married to.
Still waiting for Green Pee to point out and post all my grammatical and spelling mistakes, since it claims I make more of them than anyone here. Come on Pee-brain, what are they and when and where did I post them?
Your mistakes go back through hundreds of comments and I saw people correcting you
Then you can show me exactly what and where they are. If not, you're a liar.
What the h-ll is going on with this blog? Are Salt, Salty and Saltnpepper all the same person? Who's the m_ron that says that I don't know the difference between the old and new testament.? All I know is that Salt told me I said that gay marriage was in the old testament (which I did not say – I said h-mos-xuality is in the old testament which is 100% correct), and that's all I said about the old testament.
There's a lot of really ignorant people out there unfortunately.....
Jen, best not let the idiots get to you. They don't have a clue.
Jen – Tom Tom is impersonating salt, salty, greentea....so hard to tell who wrote what. He has been reported to CNN
Hmm, Blacktea, how is it you think you know this?
By the way, did you discard your moniker in favor of this one? Because Black Pee sounds even worse than Green Pee.
Where are those mistakes of mine you promised to post? Can't find them?
Jen, ignore the idiots. You have obviously tweaked them and they are not happy about it. Don't get too exercised about it. They're not worth the effort.
Evangelical, since you keep spewing about your sicko sky fairy, let's take a closer look at what your book of nasty AKA the Christian bible really says that he wants from you and other sheeple. Fine stuff like this, and you know you can't deny that this evil crap is in your awful book of Christian fairy tales:
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
Revelations 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement. Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
Evangelical, let's take a closer look at what your nasty sky fairy says in your bible that he wants you to do:
Other Bob, since you are busily dribbling Christian spew on us, let's take a closer look at what the Christian book of nasty AKA the bible really shows your evil sky fairy god to be demanding of humans and doing himself, via OT and NT passages. Fine stuff like this:
Jesus does not say anywhere to keep killing animals in the New Testament..???? Need to do some more studying there cowboy!!!! Any person could do what you just did....take the bible, pull a few scriptures and write an ignorant commentary....Bravo!!
Quit spamming the board with the same crap, atheist Bob.
Greentea, no, cow of a girl, you are the one who needs to do some reading. Read my message again, and think harder. You need to ask yourself why that stuff is in the bible, NT or OT.
"Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created."
Evangelical, just for you, read more carefully what your book of horrors bible says:
bob (mean one).....you are funny!! WE ALL KNOW what is says in the Old Testament....have you got that – take a minute, let that compute....OK the question is – Show us where Jesus tells everyone to keep on making sacrifice with animals!! Please Bobby show us....hahahha
Greentea,. cow of a girl, again, read what I wrote. You still haven't got it yet. And if you disagree with my interpretation, which is quite sincere, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
blah blah blah blah blah knew you couldn't answer!!!! You are like Jen....very hard to converse cause you guys don't what your are talking about.....Its like I am from India, but you have never been there....but you are trying to teach us about India :)
Greentea, show some guts for a change, coward, and actually try responding with substance to what I am saying. So far, you have been unable to.
@Greentea – "Show us where Jesus tells everyone to keep on making sacrifice with animals!!"
I understand that this is not an Jesus advocating animal sacrifice, but isn't it an example of he, himself, committing animal sacrafice?
King James Version (KJV)
And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.
Really- O are you serious? You really cannot distinguish between this scripture and animal sacrifice? Go back to making jello at the jello factory
Sorry, I admit I have a hard time discerning different instances of nonsense. For example, did the woodsman save Snow White and then eat the three little pigs or did he eat both Snow White and Grandma? I get confused.
'your guys don't what your are talking about'...
Greentea you are very hard to converse with....it's like conversing with someone that thinks they are intelligent....but is obviously not intelligent
I can understand why you can't converse with me. I can't expect someone that can't put together a first grade sentence to understand anything I say :)
Sorry, I meant 'you guys'. FYI Greentea – the proper sentence is 'you guys don't KNOW what YOU are talking about'
My three year old can tutor you in remedial English if you would like :)
You do not understand the scriptures. Christ ended the law of moses. [ old testament].
Ok Jen, you win – for not making any mistakes when typing quickly ( I am at work).......I win for having the facts!!! yah
The only fact you've posted, Greensh!t, is that you're a high-school dropout who can't pin together two words without misspelling one of them and misusing the other. Jen has you dead-to-rights, you moron.
Sorry Tommy, you have more grammar and spelling mistakes than anyone on this blog!!!! hahahahahahahhahahahahhah funny little monkey is right
Then you should be able to point them out. Go ahead, Green Pee. I'm all ears.
Greentea, you shouldn't be flipping burgers and typing at the same time :)
What of any of my posts do you not understand? If you want, I can explain them to you like I would explain them to my one year old (I would explain them to you like I would to my three year old but that would be way over your head)
"Show us where Jesus tells everyone to keep on making sacrifice with animals!!"
1. If you are going to claim that Jesus is "God", then he is responsible for the OT too. You can't have it both ways.
2. In the NT Jesus is alleged to have said that he was not changing a dot of the old laws. You can't have it both ways.
I am a fairly good speller, and I have seen lots and lots of Tom, Tom's posts. I have not seen any spelling errors in them. Poor spelling is one clue to knowing when someone has hijacked her screen name, though, as the dweebs are wont to do (as if it's not obvious by the other content).
Can you believe these morons actually own computers?
Get real and Jen – together you make one brain. Its sad. Its sad that you cannot understand the diff between the old testament and the new. Jesus is called the Lamb of God because – He became the sacrificial lamb.....on the cross...wow exhausting!!! There are thousand of years between these two sections of the bible......we cannot teach you everything – please study – just a bit
And I'm too exhausted to tell you why I am against gays marrying, even thought I've said I would. Much, much to tired to answer this hard question. I can't manage to rite anything mor tonite as i am to tired.
Yes, dear, I was a believer for probably more years than you have had birthdays for thus far.
There is not a shred of verified evidence in The Bible for supernatural beings and events.
** sorry, typing too fast... and no edit; so that last sentence is better written:
There is not a shred of verified evidence for the supernatural beings and events told about in The Bible.
Get Real, I wouldn't worry too much about Salty's proofreading skills. Doesn't strike me like its elevator goes all the way to the top floor, if you know what I mean and I think you do. ;)
The use of ellipses in its posts are hilarious, though. I doubt it has a clue what they indicate.
Jen you are not left guessing, Its not ok here are the rules if you don't follow them zap.He left us with the laws written on our hearts, the laws of Moses, prophets and a helper to help us to understand what He wants and how things should be. Seek and you shall find knock and I will answer and sit and eat with you. Kind of personal isn't it that's what Hes already made the provision for and the way. If you are a Christian you will know this and will have to make a conscious decision to go against it.
Post by Bob is a form of the flawed argument known as Pascal's Wager.
Bobs post has nothing to do with Pascals. You wouldn't know a fallacy if it jumped up and bit you on the cheek
"if you don't follow them zap." sure sounds like Pascal's bet to me. Caught you fibbing, "truth".
So again, the author is wrong as he has guessed incorrectly, and a true Christian would not be left guessing. Yet you say below that the author will be saved. But you say he can't be a true Christian and only true Christians will be saved. Can you at least admit that you have said two completely contradictory statements, or are you so unintelligent that you can't figure it out?
Many claim to follow many religions and teachings.....but do not. Christianity is no different....on this blog there is a gay bishop who has twisted the scriptures enough to start a cult.....the things he writes do not bare any resemblance to the bible. This is not confusing to those who are Christians and believe in Jesus Christ.
Salt, the bible is also crystal clear about the fact that women must obey their husbands. Therefore any woman that does not obey her husband (and there is not an intelligent woman in the world that would obey her husband), and believes men and women are equal is not following Christ and is not a true Christian correct?
The word obey comes from the greek word – "hoop-ak-oo-o"......which means "to listen attentively or to hearken". Christ also taught men to love their wives as Christ loved the church. The bible clearly shows that women are used in leadership, that women have a voice, and that women are to be honored. Tell me.....do you see anything in mainstream Christianity that causes you concern, in the way women are treated....?
Salt, your bible says this about treatment of certain women, among many other horrors:
17...And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
If you think that is fair treatment of women, in any circumstances, then I think that you are an asshole.
You're not serious are you salt? (well you just confirmed you are a male) Yes so, the bible also tells slaves to obey their masters, but masters are supposed to love their slaves (and can beat them as long as they don't kill them), so I guess it's all okay right?
The bible is clear that women are not to have leadership in the church. How could a woman have a 'voice' if she's not allowed to speak in church at all (yep, that's in the bible)? Silent voice? That's an oxymoron if I ever heard one. Many Christian denominations still do not allow women to be pastors. The only role that a woman can have is a servant position in the Catholic church.
The bible has been used over and over again to subjugate women. The bible is the reason we didn't get to vote until the last century and why women were only allowed to work out of the home in very specific fields. Women still fight for equal pay today – it is a constant struggle to be seen as equals. Why? Because the bible says the man has the last word. How can a woman be a leader if she never gets the last word? That would be the DAY when my husband gets the last word in my house. He wouldn't even want it that way. We are equals. So according to your view we can't be followers of Christ.
Ok Bob is lost in the old testament somewhere.....we will leave him there – he likes it. Jen.....A couple of hundred years ago we did not have a lightbulb either..? Tell me something do you see other religions and cultures today that oppress women? Some of the points you are referring to are the result of time and culture in society, they are not ALL because of Christianity. I do not see any women being oppressed in mainstream Christianity today....do you know who Dr Pat Francis is..? Yes there are some different religions, that still oppress women and children....but I am a woman and a leader and I do not see any women in mainstream Christianity being oppressed by husbands or anyone else. I don't see any marriages that are not equal in how they treat each other....none. Where there is no fear – there is freedom. I have actually heard men in the church apologize to women, and tell them to go for it!! Now there are Amish folk and others who do things their own way – but that is not mainstream Christianity
Okay salt, you continue to contradict yourself. You say that the person that wrote this article is contradicting the bible by saying gay marriage is okay (when pretty much almost everything against h-mos-xuality is confined to the old testament – the same testament you dismiss above), but for some reason it is okay for a woman to have a voice in church (when the bible is CRYSTAL CLEAR that a woman is not allowed to speak in church). So it's okay to ignore certain parts of the bible or say they are wrong? And people are just allowed to randomly dismiss what is inconvenient in the bible? It's okay for people to determine what god thinks is important? Was he just kidding about the parts where women are to be subservient to men? Please stop skirting around the issues. We are talking about the bible, not mainstream Christianity. There are Christian denominations that allow gay marriage. You would say they are wrong? Why? That's mainstream Christianity if I ever witnessed it.
Jen...The bible does not just address the definition of marriage in the Old Testament or what is sin. Secondly we do not highlight certain parts of the bible and downplay other parts. The whole bible is the word of God to His people. Yes I have gone to Bible College, no I do not have a masters. In studying ancient Hebrew culture and the church in the time of Jesus, these scriptures about women – which were addressed to the Corinthian church were there for a reason. Christianity can be summed up by the words of Jesus......love your neighbor as yourself. The Kingdom of God is a culture of honor.....it is clear that you do not understand this....and that you see things as one person having power over another.....that is not Gods heart for anyone.
Salt, how is it you can babble on about the Bible, but are completely incapable of answering the question I asked you days ago? Here it is again, you retarded monkey: How does gay marriage affect you in any way whatsoever? Why are you opposed to it, excepting your religious objections, which are irrelevant in a secular nation?
Are you going to answer this time, or continue to be the "Artful Dodger", like Boob? Or are you just the usual lily-livered Christian coward who can't answer anything with a grain of honesty?
First of all Tom Tom – you have not answered one person who has asked you a question – on several blogs too!!! not one Secondly – When you asked that question – it was answered......when I answered it you did not comment on the truth that spoke – you just went on calling names as ususal........I have seen this over and over with you – people answer you with facts and then you call names....totally exhausting!! You are sleep deprived and on meds.....thats all I can come up with
Lie on, Salt. Lie on.
Why can't you answer now, Salt? Gonna come up with yet another excuse?
What a surprise. You have had every opportunity, just as your sock-puppet Boob has had, to explain in simple words that even YOU can spell and understand, how gay marriage will impact YOUR little, sorry, sordid life, and you haven't been capable of doing so. Are you going to go for it again? Go ahead. Prove me wrong.
Salt, I did not say the old testament discussed gay marriage, I said it discussed h-mos-xuality.
Well this is fantastic news! Love your neighbor as yourself. I follow that myself and I'm agnostic! Of course that means loving my gay neighbors as well. And if I love them as myself I have to be okay with them getting married (as I am married myself)! It wouldn't be loving them as myself if I didn't. I would be loving them with conditions.
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. He existed in the beginning with God.God created everything through Him, and nothing was created except through Him.The Word gave life to everything that was created, and His life brought light to everyone.The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness can never extinguish it. This Word is Jesus and what person in their right mind would try and alter Gods Word? Only by the Holy Spirit is revelation imparted to man about the Word but it is not a alteration or deviation.
Other Bob, since you are busily dribbling Christian spew on us, let's take a closer look at what the Christian book of nasty AKA the bible really shows your evil sky fairy god to be demanding and doing, via OT and NT. Fine stuff like this:
By your statement Bob (the nasty one), you prove your entire ignorance of ancient history. People that do not even believe in God or Jesus.....can at least acknowledge the rituals and cultures of the middlesastern people in ancient times. Jesus became the perfect sacrifice for all....so there was no longer a need to sacrifice animals....please show us where Jesus says that we should keep doing this today.....love to see it???????
Salt, the question was why was that sacrifice stuff ever in there? It does not pass muster that it was a social norm, because then yet again, your god is clearly an invention of the people of those times.
Even more seriously, how was Jesus' supposed death a sacrifice at all, when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time it wants with less than a snap of its fingers?
Pretty feeble god it is that you've made for yourself there. Now, look into the eyes of a suffering victim of any of the multiple disfiguring, debilitating, painful diseases that your "loving" god has purportedly created. Then you might understand that Christian god as described in the bible is not loving, doesn't give a hoot about human suffering, and in fact does not exist.
Bob....by the looks of things you have not been able to answer one question so far......but I will try – can you show us where it says that God created all diseases..?
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. As the Scriptures tell us, Anyone who trusts in Him will never be disgraced.Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on Him.For "Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved. There is no reason to have another version of the Bible except like the Catholics it includes the Apocrypha which is more books but not someone else's interpretation of the Bible. God made the worlds and all that's in it I think He can gives us the meaning. Also if you believe Jesus IS God and not some alien transplant or He was adopted then we are pretty much on similar footings.
What???? You said in your previous post that if you interpret the bible incorrectly you will burn in a lake of fire. Now you are saying that if you accept Jesus as lord (which clearly the author does), you will be saved.
Which one is it Bob? You can't have it both ways.....
Jen reread the post maybe you will understand that its the deception and deceiver that purposefully led people astray because of their own errors and sinful bias. Or to break it down further read about How God feels about people who teach His children false teachings. The Bible says not all should want to be teachers but those who can rightly divide the Word of God and they will incur a stricter punishment. The author is a lawyer not a minister or bishop or anyone in the clergy or a teacher and although wrote a article that is off totally off base his works may be burned up but he is still saved.Also just because someone says hes a Christian doesn't mean he is one, no one who loves God continues to walk in a path of error he confronts his sin asks God to help him deal with it is healed and moves on. The ones that continue in sin multiply their sin and teach others to do the same is not a Christian and will not be saved even though he says he is. Is your name written in the Lambs book of life??? ask God you will know because He will tell you and anything that doesn't line up with His word needs to be gone out of your life not kept. Although all you say the Bible is ancient it is still the moral standard. Why do you think the laws were called the laws of sin and death because it is that standard that is held up to let us know we are walking in error.
Bob I don't need to reread your post (we both know which one of us has the superior reading and writing comprehension skills).
You are still saying that if one does not recognize that he is making an error, he will be punished. Bias is different, but an error is not intentional. So by your reasoning, if you make a mistake (the definition of error), you have to correct it in time or you are headed to that pit of fire. So again, one can believe that Jesus is your lord and Saviour, but according to you, if you don't recognize your mistake in time, get ready for a very warm eternity. That sounds reasonable. Especially since with the many translations of the bible, there definitely has to be several errors in it, so you are definitely not following the bible to the letter. So you are in serious trouble.
I love how you put words in my mouth. Can you point out where I said the bible is ancient? Thanks!
And again, the 1500 plus denominations interpret things differently, so the majority of Christians are making errors that they will never realize in time. So again, by your reasoning, only those that correct their errors (which the majority will never realize), can be saved. My guess is NONE of them interpret the bible 100 percent correctly, so that lake of fire is going to be crowded!
[vimeo 41796801 w=500 h=281] Gay Marriage: Now What? from Together for the Gospel (T4G) on Vimeo.
Sorry I guess it won't imbed, but this is a clear defense of the topic from a Christian using the Bible not just a what someones opinion of the matter is. You can visit the one link to watch it if you care to.
Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
“Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”
“Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?”
For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
When you get right down to it – the bible is interpretation. And there are a lot of interreations. There is no one word of god.
There is interpretation and there is outright lying and stretching to make the Bible appear to say exactly the opposite to what it clearly states.
Yes there are interpretations to help people understand ......and at times some things can be lost – but the basic message never changes. If one is wanting the most accurate meaning....to a passage then they need to study the Hebrew and the Greek....not to complcated
And you understand Greek and Hebrew do you Salt? Even though you can not spell ' too' or 'complicated'? (ie don't have a basic grasp of English)?
Jen – my mistakes from writing quickly, do not negate from the facts. Any person highly educated or not can check the meaning of any word in the bible in the Greek or Hebrew......were you not aware of this??
But you can not make literal translations of every word from one language to another, as the identical words do not always exist in both languages (which you would understand if you knew anything about languages). So you are always losing information in translation, which is why the bible has been proven to be full of errors.
And let's not forget that languages themselves change, so ancient Greek and Hebrew are no longer the same. Are you able to translate ancient languages? If so, you could probably make a lot of money....
Ok Jen....here is your first bible lesson. The Old Testament is in Hebrew and the New Testament is in Greek....and yes you can accurately look up every word in the bible and interpret. There are many linguistic scholars alive today who understand ancient Hebrew and Greek....which you would know if you knew anything about languages :):)
So you believe there is a literal translation for every word in every language? Yikes....somebody didn't go to college.....
You are twisting my words....never said anything like what you have written. You are clearly in over your head.....did I say "every word in every language".....hello. I was clearly referring to the bible written in english, but interpreted from Hebrew and Greek.....
Right...so you just admitted that there is no way you can get something translated literally (ie correctly) in the bible. Meaning that if you read the English version you are reading the wrong thing because a lot of it could not be translated properly...asking for specific parts to be translated does not alleviate that problem.....so I hope you were taught ancient Greek and Hebrew when you were a baby or you are scr-wed.....
Wow....its so hard to go online and have english translated into greek or hebrew......where are you from??? Skokumville??
Tell me Salt. What university did you go to? You are educated right (have at minimum a masters degree I hope?).
[vimeo 41796801 w=400 h=300]
[vimeo 41796801 w=500 h=281]
sorry that didn't work.
If you start to interpret the Bible John why don't you write your own instead of building your own works off it. What piece of the wisdom of God are you going to change without understanding The Authors heart? What puts you above the Author? It seems to me satan has tried this before and failed. It seems to me that Jesus warning about teachers misleading would mean something to you. I know I would fear the eternal damnation and the lake of fire that await those who misjudge and teach others to do the same.
So there are over 1500 denominations in this country with their own interpretations of the bible. Which one is right? I hope you chose wisely Bob because you only have a .067 percent chance that you chose the right one. The people in the other denominations are all going into that lake of fire. It's not looking good for you.
What we see happening here today on this post is the same thing as in Jesus time. Some of the apostles were unlearned men yet they went up in front of kings, rulers and the Pharisees and Sadducees. God never said the wisdom of the world was what He wanted He always said I will take the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. I finally know why the Apostles were happy at their level of learning. Today I can truly say I would rather be a fool for Jesus than one of these learned white washed tombs. I would rather listen and side with God than have mans distorted logic. God loves us we have nothing to fear. Mans wisdom never accomplished Gods purposes. Thats why we come as children open honest not fearing the world but knowing we have a Father that conquered the world. Everyone makes choices everyone is delt a hand in life but we all make choices make sure the one you pick has the power to save now and for eternity. Thank You Jesus!!!!
I am writing these things to warn you about those who want to lead you astray.But "if" you have received the Holy Spirit, and He lives within you, so you don't need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what He teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as He has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.And now, dear children, remain in fellowship with Christ so that when He returns, you will be full of courage and not shrink back from Him in shame.Since we know that Christ is righteous, we also know that all who do what is right are God's children.
I have no problems whatsoever distinguishing right from wrong. You are wrong on this topic. Sad but true – perhaps you should find the true god.
Gosh, Bob, you are delusional
Wow....quite the boast JWT – you know right from wrong.....but you do not know the Lord Jesus Christ? Tell me something JWT.....do you agree with abortion? Just wondering.....
Well Salt – I have a brain and can tell my own right from wrong – no one needs religion to tell them right from wrong. One of the Bobs here has religion and doesnt know right from wrong.
Abortion – I disagree with abortion in a general sense but would never dream of tryign to tell a woman what the right thing to do it. Some times abortion is the right thing to do.
Thank-you JWT – your answer is what I expected.
Right salt, because a woman that has been violently r-ped and is traumatized to the point of not being able to even take care of herself is nothing but a cold blooded murderer if she has an abortion right? I mean who doesn't want to have the child of a violent criminal? And a woman that will die if she carries a fetus to term should sacrifice herself (which will of course kill the fetus as well) because it is the most selfless act if both mother and fetus die (especially if the mother has young children at home – I'm sure they will understand why their mother left them).
And of course you have personally experienced both of these situations so can put yourself in the shoes of either of these women. Oh, you're a man? So you've never had a baby and have absolutely no idea what it is like to even be pregnant? I'm shocked...absolutely shocked.....
Jen in principle – is abortion right or wrong? The scenerio that you picked is less than .01% of any of the millions of abortions that happen daily.......my question is simple – Jen drama aside....is it right or wrong?
Because I think all non-believers should be aborted after birth. Do you agree, Jen?
There is a terrorist on this blog named Tom Tom....last comment by salt not mine
You're lying. God is going to smite you.
Well salt (the non-hijacked one), I think you missed my point about how this is not a black and white, 'it is wrong', or 'it is right' issue, no matter how much you try to make it one. I would have to say in principle I think it is wrong. However, I also think in principle that killing is wrong. However, I do not think that killing in self-defense is wrong, just like I don't think that all abortions are wrong. I also do not believe that either killing or abortion = murder. There's a reason why they all have different names. I also think abortion should be legal (which it is :)
I don't put myself in other people's shoes. I am currently pregnant with my third child, and I have been violently ill with morning sickness (the reason I have been on the computer all day), and have been hospitalized with complications. I wouldn't tell someone that is having a more difficult pregnancy than mine that she has to carry her baby to term. I wouldn't tell someone that is going to have a baby with serious defects that she has to have that baby (I have never experienced that so unless I have I can't say what I would do). Do I think it's wrong to have a late term abortion (aside from health of the mother)? – yes. Do I think it's wrong to use abortion as a birth control method? -yes. Do I think it is wrong to have an abortion due to the two situations I talked about above? Absolutely not. But that's my opinion. I don't shove my opinion in everyone's face and tell them that my opinion is the one that is right. I just have to choose what is right for myself and not judge others for their decisions. This is a very grey issue – no matter how black and white some try to make it.
Well Jen....should we focus on the micro or the macro? There are 40 million women missing from China and India due to abortions. In North America where birth control and information is easy to get....we have millions of abortions daily. You do not want to judge – that is fine. But for the millions and millions of babies that have been killed.....one day there will be judgement.
Well as a Christian it is not your place to judge either (if you were a true Christian you know that is the responsibility of God). So what is your problem with my stance? Seems as though I live more like a Christian than you do.....
Millions of abortions a day in North America? There are about a million abortions a year in the US, less than 100,000 abortions a year in Canada (strange that Canada has a lower per capita abortion rate than the US when it has much lower Christians per capita), and under a million per year in Mexico. How does that equate to millions/ day? Are there other countries I'm not aware of? (let me guess your response will be that it is still too high – not addressing the fact that you just lied in your post – that's okay – I've heard God is fine with lying)
No response to my post above? You know, where you completely changed direction once I called you out on using the bible against gays, where all of a sudden only one statement made by Jesus is important? No, nothing? Didn't think so.....
The number worldwide for abortions in a year is approx 42 million. How that works out daily for each continent is a number I do not have....if is not millions, it is still a very high number. Your desire to focus on whether I got the number right is interesting....This discussion started out with myself and JWT....umm so where did I use the bible against gays...very confusing. Your need to elevate yourself and say that you live a more christian life than myself – someone you have never met and know nothing about – is again very interesting....
Well let's see – 42 million abortions, 7 continents. 42/6 (I'll take out Antarctica since there probably aren't a lot of abortions going on there:) = 7 million abortions/year per continent. 7/365=1 million per day??? No wait...let me do that math again....20,000 abortions/day. Well 20,000 vs. 1,000,000 – close enough right? It's interesting that I told you how you were going to answer and you still answered that way! Yes I agree that it is too many abortions (I never said otherwise), but if you make a mistake at least say, whoops – I screwed up! It's not that hard.
Sorry, I didn't mean to get in on your and JWT's private discussion. I guess I assumed that you would be okay with it since you had previously gotten in on the discussion I was having with Bob. First of all, I did assume that you were the same Salt that had mentioned previously that Bishop John had twisted the bible like a pretzel. Is that not the case? Because I apologize if I assumed wrong. If it was you, were you not referring to his 'evil writings' as being wrong because they support gay rights (which of course includes gay marriage – as that is what the entire article is about)? If not, what were you referring to? (Please answer this question as I notice you don't answer many things or skirt around the issue – I try to answer all of yours....)
If it was you, you said that he was just another gay that was confused to the point of torment. Do you know Bishop John personally? Do you know all gays personally? It's interesting that you can make a judgment about gays being confused to the point of torment – people that you do not know and have never met. You also seem incredulous in this thread that JWT could possibly know the difference between right and wrong. Why? How can you make that judgment about JWT when you don't know him and have never met him?
Also to be clear. I don't think I am elevating myself above you even if I consider myself more Christian than you. Why? Because I don't believe Christians are elevated above anyone. People of all religions and non-believers are all equal in my eyes. Some of them are good, some of them are bad, regardless of what they believe.
Jen you contradict yourself every time you write.....you are clearly having an emotional time. You ask me how I can say things to these people I don't know, but you say them to me – who you don't know...Bishop John is in his right to support gay rights....but he is not in his rights to distort the bible in the most ridiculous way to support his lifestyle. Anyone wearing a priestly robe in the Catholic Church, who is twisting scripture and is wanting gay s-ex.....is someone who I would never trust and for very good reasons – nor leave with my children. If you studied his writings you may see what I am saying....
Where have I contradicted myself? I'm not the one that has a problem with someone else saying something about me. You are the one that thought it was strange that I could say something about you when I hadn't met you and knew nothing about you. Where did I say the same about myself? Please answer this. Actually, I was just pointing out your hypocrisy. And I knew you wouldn't get it (I'm good at guessing your responses for someone that doesn't know you :)
Let's see....I'm emotional, JWT could not possible know the difference between right and wrong, Bishop John and other gays are tormented. Yet no one should DARE to say anything about you because they don't know you and have never met you. Uh huh....hypocrisy at it's finest.
Gays are no more likely than heteros-xuals to be p-dophiles. So why would you have a problem having them around your children? Also, do you interview all your heteros-xual friends to ensure they don't have gay s-x too? An-l s-x between a man and woman is sodomy as well. I assume you have interviewed all of your friends extensively on all of their bedroom habits to ensure they are not doing anything you find immoral. No? Why not? Certainly this is your business if your children are ever around these people.
Again, any woman such as yourself who dares speak in Church is distorting the bible in order to support her 'modern' lifestyle. Stop picking and choosing the parts of the bible you feel like abiding by and the parts that you don't.
As I said.....emotional nutbar. Your lack of knowledge about gay stats and child abuse is interesting. You will defend something you know nothing about....and blindly attack anyone who questions it....and you are a mother of three. My career was in child care for fifteen years. The whole bible is a wonder to me and I love every word, there is nothing I would take out.....your presumptions are hard to keep up with. Have a nap
Awwww....poor Salt...has absolutely no argument against me so instead resorts to attacking me by calling me names (while accusing me of attacking you when I have NEVER called you a single name....). It's okay Salt. It was never a fair fight to begin with. My 8 years of post secondary education against your high school diploma...and your esteemed career in babysitting....not really a fair fight. I won all my debates in my university law class...while you demonstrated above that you can't even do third grade math....
Jen you sure have had to have alot explained to you for someone of your education........the main thing is that you feel good about yourself. Your need to put down everyone around you and to elevate yourself is a form of therapy I guess. Anyway this my last post....will not be checking for any more of your insults
Hey,Salt-licker, it's not "alot", you idiot. It's "a lot". TWO WORDS. Figure it out when you get back to 3rd grade, dearie. You're so dumb you make begonias look like geniuses.
Jen-10, Salt. um, well, uh, let's just say less than 0.
But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person's work has any value.If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward.But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames Don't you realize that all of you together are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God lives in you?God will destroy anyone who destroys this temple. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.Stop deceiving yourselves. If you think you are wise by this world's standards, you need to become a fool to be truly wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. As the Scriptures say, "He traps the wise in the snare of their own cleverness.And again, "The LORD knows the thoughts of the wise; He knows they are worthless.So don't boast about following a particular human leader. For everything belongs to you
Your god's judgement is a bad joke.
Hopefully the joke won't be on you Sam.......When the God of all creation comes and judges all people and nations, He will bring with Him witnesses. It will be a day like no other, and no lies will be able to live in His presence. All mysteries and secrets will be revealed that day......all intentions and motivations for all actions will be revealed. All things will be in the light for all to see.....
Bob and salt,
And your verified evidence for that alleged scenario is...?
Get Real – do you know any scripture at all? God was kind and generous to leave us His word, so no one will be able to say they did not know......How do you think Hitler, or Mugabe, or Stalin, or Assad will fair on this day?
Stalin will do very well with bob's god.
Don't worry Sam (oh he who makes 1 fabric from cotton adn silk)). There is no reason to worship any god and fortunately in our society less and less reason to fake it. People can make their own decisions and bob and salt can stewe over it all they want and it changes nothing now or ever,
" – do you know any scripture at all? God was kind and generous to leave us His word,"
Did you notice that I said "verified evidence"? There is not a shred of verified evidence for the supernatural beings told about in the Bible.
Did you know that was a prof at Harvard, who took all of the ancient prophesies about Jesus Christ that were written thousands of years before He came to earth.....and then he figured out the odds of one man coming to earth who actually met all of the requirements of these prophesies – and it was almost mathematically impossible. Just as the financial collapse of this world is in there and the coming cashless society, the earthquakes, famines etc......I will put my money on the bible
Then you are a fool, salt. Did it ever occur to you that the the story was altered to fit the prophecies? The entire story of Christ's birth does not stand up to historic scrutiny. The bible is also filled with contradictions. You may as well put your faith in Harry Potter.
Now I make one more appeal, my dear brothers and sisters. Watch out for people who cause divisions and upset people's faith by teaching things contrary to what you have been taught. Stay away from them.Such people are not serving Christ our Lord; they are serving their own personal interests. By smooth talk and glowing words they deceive innocent people. But everyone knows that you are obedient to the Lord. This makes me very happy. I want you to be wise in doing right and to stay innocent of any wrong The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. May the grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
Right, Bob, much better to stick with the edited, translated iron age hearsay as a moral guide
"By smooth talk and glowing words they deceive innocent people. "
The experts have proven you wrong and your ego can't handle that. Duh!
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