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My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage
The author backs same-sex marriage because of his faith, not in spite of it.
May 19th, 2012
02:00 AM ET

My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage

Editor's Note: Mark Osler is a Professor of Law at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

By Mark Osler, Special to CNN

I am a Christian, and I am in favor of gay marriage. The reason I am for gay marriage is because of my faith.

What I see in the Bible’s accounts of Jesus and his followers is an insistence that we don’t have the moral authority to deny others the blessing of holy institutions like baptism, communion, and marriage. God, through the Holy Spirit, infuses those moments with life, and it is not ours to either give or deny to others.

A clear instruction on this comes from Simon Peter, the “rock” on whom the church is built. Peter is a captivating figure in the Christian story. Jesus plucks him out of a fishing boat to become a disciple, and time and again he represents us all in learning at the feet of Christ.

During their time together, Peter is often naïve and clueless – he is a follower, constantly learning.

After Jesus is crucified, though, a different Peter emerges, one who is forceful and bold. This is the Peter we see in the Acts of the Apostles, during a fevered debate over whether or not Gentiles should be baptized. Peter was harshly criticized for even eating a meal with those who were uncircumcised; that is, those who did not follow the commands of the Old Testament.

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Peter, though, is strong in confronting those who would deny the sacrament of baptism to the Gentiles, and argues for an acceptance of believers who do not follow the circumcision rules of Leviticus (which is also where we find a condemnation of homosexuality).

His challenge is stark and stunning: Before ordering that the Gentiles be baptized Peter asks “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

None of us, Peter says, has the moral authority to deny baptism to those who seek it, even if they do not follow the ancient laws. It is the flooding love of the Holy Spirit, which fell over that entire crowd, sinners and saints alike, that directs otherwise.

My Take: Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality

It is not our place, it seems, to sort out who should be denied a bond with God and the Holy Spirit of the kind that we find through baptism, communion, and marriage. The water will flow where it will.

Intriguingly, this rule will apply whether we see homosexuality as a sin or not. The water is for all of us. We see the same thing at the Last Supper, as Jesus gives the bread and wine to all who are there—even to Peter, who Jesus said would deny him, and to Judas, who would betray him.

The question before us now is not whether homosexuality is a sin, but whether being gay should be a bar to baptism or communion or marriage.

Your Take: Rethinking the Bible on homosexuality

The answer is in the Bible. Peter and Jesus offer a strikingly inclusive form of love and engagement. They hold out the symbols of Gods’ love to all. How arrogant that we think it is ours to parse out stingily!

I worship at St. Stephens, an Episcopal church in Edina, Minnesota. There is a river that flows around the back and side of that church with a delightful name: Minnehaha Creek. That is where we do baptisms.

The Rector stands in the creek in his robes, the cool water coursing by his feet, and takes an infant into his arms and baptizes her with that same cool water. The congregation sits on the grassy bank and watches, a gentle army.

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At the bottom of the creek, in exactly that spot, is a floor of smooth pebbles. The water rushing by has rubbed off the rough edges, bit by bit, day by day. The pebbles have been transformed by that water into something new.

I suppose that, as Peter put it, someone could try to withhold the waters of baptism there. They could try to stop the river, to keep the water from some of the stones, like a child in the gutter building a barrier against the stream.

It won’t last, though. I would say this to those who would withhold the water of baptism, the joy of worship, or the bonds of marriage: You are less strong than the water, which will flow around you, find its path, and gently erode each wall you try to erect.

The redeeming power of that creek, and of the Holy Spirit, is relentless, making us all into something better and new.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Mark Osler.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Christianity • Episcopal • Gay marriage • Opinion

soundoff (15,115 Responses)
  1. I once was blind but now I see

    I want to find the person who made up the story about Jesus. Because of that person Jesus's name is the most powerful name in the world. Because of that person me and billions of people put our faith in Jesus and would happliy die for Him. Because of that person more songs are inspired by Jesus than any other person. Because of that person Jesus is hands down the most powerful figure known to man. Why oh why did someone make all of this stuff up why. All of this happiness and joy in me is all a lie. Everything was formed and perfectly put together by expolsions and expansions. The unique human race started from monkeys. We were all born for no apparent reason, life is a big coinsidence. WHYYYYYYYYYY.... I cant even keep this going non-believers lol this is how foolish you guys sound when you deny the existence of God. Thats like denying the fact that someone designed and built the empire state building. Actually worse

    June 25, 2012 at 8:09 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      I think you need to learn what you're talking about first. Learn what evolution actually states, not to mention big bang cosmology and abiogenesis. That's just for starters, then look up the watchmakers fallacy.

      June 25, 2012 at 8:12 pm |
    • JWT

      Happiness and joy require no joy. Nor is any "god" necessary to fingure our your reason for existance.

      June 25, 2012 at 8:40 pm |
    • tallulah13

      So blindy, what you're trying to say is that you would rather believe a pretty lie than face reality.

      I'm just the opposite. A pretty lie is still just a lie. I'd rather know the truth, warts and all.

      June 26, 2012 at 1:41 am |
  2. Follower of Christ

    To all atheist. You should be very thankful, God will grant you your hearts desire. He personally created a place where for eternity you will never have to worry about being near Him or His followers again. In that place His presence nor His kindness will ever be found. One thing you can count on being there is His full blown wrath. To all faithful followers of Jesus Christ. You should be very thankful, God will grant you your hearts desire. Jesus the most powerful figure known to man has created a new home for us. A home where we will forever dwell with Him never to be seperated again. Jesus is truly is the Son of God. He died 2000 years ago and yet throught out the ages His name still lives on louder than any other. The impact He made on this world is incomparable. People of faith, people whom Jesus calls for. Continue on the road that leads to righteousness. All glory and honor be to He who lives and reigns forever.

    June 25, 2012 at 7:58 pm |
    • JWT

      No heaven. no hell and no god, Simple enough.

      June 25, 2012 at 8:39 pm |
    • tallulah13

      If only you had any proof to back your claim. Sadly, there is as much proof of the existence of Zeus as there is proof of the existence of your christian god. Your threats are as hollow as your promise of reward. But it's okay.

      When you die, you cease to exist forever, so you'll never have to face the disappointment of knowing that your heaven doesn't exist.

      June 26, 2012 at 1:44 am |
  3. Mark

    I have no problem with monogamy, bigamy, polygamy, incest or anything else for that matter. If you are at the age of reason, you should be able to do whatever you want without any kind of restraint.

    June 25, 2012 at 7:35 pm |
  4. Jay

    I am a gay man in love with my biological brother. We would both love to get married but are unable in the state of MA because we are brothers. Gay marriage is legal here. We can't procreate. Our love doesn't hurt anyone. So what is the problem? I think it would be the Christian thing to allow since Christianity is about all kinds of love.

    June 25, 2012 at 7:32 pm |
    • Tina

      Jay – why did you write this on – this blog? Trying to shock us?? Ince-st and ho-mo stuff. Do you think you are helping by relaying your very sick situation?? You need therapy desperately and so does your brother. Why don't you look into getting some help? I say these things out of concern....however there is no way you are getting married

      June 26, 2012 at 1:29 am |
  5. Bob

    I was thinking about the question what harm will gay marriage do to me. Well I think I can answer that when a few years ago the courts and schools started to take the 10 commandments off the buildings. In one ruling the judge saying the kids may see the commandments and start following them. In the desert a war memorial cross erected many years ago torn down by vandals and they have had to go to court to try to put it back up and Obam is still blocking the way. When women can no longer go into a bathroom and have privacy and have to allow men in. When saying Merry Christmas has become a bad thing, when we can no longer have the peoples vote counted and respected by judges and elected officials, when health care for aids and other associated dieses is covered, when kids in school have to be subjected to demonstrations of gay bedroom life when the mayor of NY will no longer without reason and against the law rent churches public buildings, when teen pregnancies up 45 percent will be paid for by us the people of the US with all the cost completely covered. When kids who don’t feel they are treated right can call the police and will arrest and take away the dad. This is without the fact that it is ok to distort the Bible and publicly display abominations all of what I have listed is only the partial cost of gay marriage. When we have gays disrespect a president that doesn’t align with their policy and disrespect him but the big O give millions of dollars for. When the country that has been here for 200 years can no longer be Christ centered instead changing even the little things like BC/AD TO BCE/CE this is only partly the cost. That we see the Bible as the moral standard being taken out of the US and instead replace it with a secular standard. The fact even history books have been changed to take God out of them and the reason this country was founded and on what it was founded. So that we cant even know what kind of country we are. This is still not the total cost because there is no gay marriage study that is reliable and no physcs that can discern dev behavior so what good are the studies. Gays have never had good stats in their relationships and now all of a sudden we want to hand them marriage. Yes the real question is, what is the cost, the real cost, that we don’t even know yet. Time will tell how much more we will have to bleed in order to have gays marry.

    June 25, 2012 at 9:06 am |
    • midwest rail

      I was thinking about the question what harm will gay marriage do to me. Well I think I can answer that when a few years ago the courts and schools started to take the 10 commandments off the buildings. In one ruling the judge saying the kids may see the commandments and start following them. In the desert a war memorial cross erected many years ago torn down by vandals and they have had to go to court to try to put it back up and Obam is still blocking the way. When women can no longer go into a bathroom and have privacy and have to allow men in. When saying Merry Christmas has become a bad thing, when we can no longer have the peoples vote counted and respected by judges and elected officials, when health care for aids and other associated dieses is covered, when kids in school have to be subjected to demonstrations of gay bedroom life when the mayor of NY will no longer without reason and against the law rent churches public buildings, when teen pregnancies up 45 percent will be paid for by us the people of the US with all the cost completely covered. When kids who don’t feel they are treated right can call the police and will arrest and take away the dad. This is without the fact that it is ok to distort the Bible and publicly display abominations all of what I have listed is only the partial cost of gay marriage

      Except that everything you posted has NOTHING whatever to do with gay marriage. In the last two days you've managed to equate gay folk with child predators, Hitler, and now this collection of tripe. I cant figure out whether you're truly this delusional, or just a despi@able human being. Most likely both. How dare you call yourself a Christian ?

      June 25, 2012 at 9:37 am |
    • midwest rail

      And by the way, as soon as you typed the first three words of your post, you were wrong.

      June 25, 2012 at 9:51 am |
    • JWT

      So in summary you have no clue if gay marriage will hurt or not – its just against your religion this it must be outlawed.
      Gotcha.

      June 25, 2012 at 4:48 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Bob,

      I was thinking about the question what harm will gay marriage do to me. Well I think I can answer that when a few years ago the courts and schools started to take the 10 commandments off the buildings.

      How does the last part of that sentence relate to the first part?

      Aside from that, I think you need to be a little more specific. Do you mean when parents of children who were not Jewish or Christian sought to remove religious indoctrination from public schools so that their children could attend without fear that their civil rights would be violated?

      In one ruling the judge saying the kids may see the commandments and start following them.

      Unless you can point out a news article with an exact quote on this, I call BS (unless the person speaking was being facetious, which is highly probable). One must remember that the 10 commandments are a Judeo/Christian teaching and are NOT the basis of our law. It is religion, plain and simple, and has no part in any government setting.

      In the desert a war memorial cross erected many years ago torn down by vandals and they have had to go to court to try to put it back up and Obam is still blocking the way.

      This is because it was erected illegally on government land. If those involved want to put up a Christian symbol, do it on land owned by Christians, not by the government. If you want to put a memorial on government land, use symbolism that isn't religious.

      Perhaps you should consider that many soldiers who have given their lives were not Christian.

      When women can no longer go into a bathroom and have privacy and have to allow men in.

      This makes no sense. How does allowing same gender marriage mean men have a right to use the woman's restroom?

      Or are you attempting to tie into this the notion that transgendered people want to use the public restroom of their gender? Consider this, a M to F transgendered person has as much to fear in using a men's room as any woman might, perhaps more so. Of the transgendered I know who have suffered s.exual assault, two out of the three were attacked in public restrooms.

      Also, logically, I'd rather share a bathroom with a gay man than a straight one. They tend to be cleaner, and when they look me over it's to recommend a different lipstick color, not how to get into my pants.

      When saying Merry Christmas has become a bad thing, when we can no longer have the peoples vote counted and respected by judges and elected officials, when health care for aids and other associated dieses is covered, when kids in school have to be subjected to demonstrations of gay bedroom life when the mayor of NY will no longer without reason and against the law rent churches public buildings, when teen pregnancies up 45 percent will be paid for by us the people of the US with all the cost completely covered.

      Wow...what? That is one really long run on sentence. First off, saying "Merry Christmas" isn't a "bad thing". It can be rude and inconsiderate to say to someone who doesn't celebrate. My general rule there is, if I know you do Christmas, I wish you a Merry one. If I know you do Yule, I will wish you Solstice blessings. If I have no idea what holiday you celebrate, I'll say "Happy Holidays". Simple really. And still nothing at all to do with same gender marriage.

      Now, as to AIDS and other s.ex.ually transmitted diseases being covered by insurance (I'm assuming that's what you mean)...I'm not sure why that's a problem for you. You would deny sick people medical care? Even when denying them that care would mean a slow, agonizing death?

      No children anywhere are being subjected to the bedroom activities of anyone, gay or straight, certainly not demonstrations in school. I have no idea where you get that impression.

      And teen pregnancy? You do realize that gay teens aren't getting pregnant, right?

      When kids who don’t feel they are treated right can call the police and will arrest and take away the dad.

      If a child is being beaten, neglected or otherwise abused, that child SHOULD have the right to get help. Period. Yes, it does mean that occasionally a brat will report a parent who isn't actually abusing them, but ultimately that gets straightened out. Or would you rather we just let abusive parents continue abusing their children with impunity?

      This is without the fact that it is ok to distort the Bible and publicly display abominations

      The bible is just a book. One man's abomination is another man's love.

      all of what I have listed is only the partial cost of gay marriage.

      Nothing you have listed has anything whatsoever to do with gay marriage.

      When we have gays disrespect a president that doesn’t align with their policy and disrespect him but the big O give millions of dollars for.

      When the president disrespects the citizens of the country that elected him, simply because he doesn't agree with who they chose to love, does he deserve respect? I'm not sure what the last part of your sentence even means.

      When the country that has been here for 200 years can no longer be Christ centered instead changing even the little things like BC/AD TO BCE/CE this is only partly the cost.

      This country is not Christ centered, nor has it ever been Christ centered. The US is a secular republic, where one of the founding principles is Freedom Of Religion. And, the move to BCE/CE is an academic one. Just like the rest of your ramble, it has nothing to do with same gender marriage.

      That we see the Bible as the moral standard being taken out of the US and instead replace it with a secular standard.

      See above. Secular republic. The bible never was the standard.

      The fact even history books have been changed to take God out of them and the reason this country was founded and on what it was founded. So that we cant even know what kind of country we are. This is still not the total cost because there is no gay marriage study that is reliable and no physcs that can discern dev behavior so what good are the studies.

      God never belonged in the history books, other than as a note regarding the religious behaviors of those being discussed. Just the same as we have the history of the Greeks and Romans, and a chapter on the religious behaviors and beliefs of those people.

      Gays have never had good stats in their relationships and now all of a sudden we want to hand them marriage. Yes the real question is, what is the cost, the real cost, that we don’t even know yet. Time will tell how much more we will have to bleed in order to have gays marry.

      I have a question for you Bob. How many gay people do you actually know? I know a lot of them. Sure there are some who suffer from serial monogamy, the same as many straight people I know. And there are those who are players, with a half a dozen partners at a given time. But the bulk of the LGBT people I know are in long term relationships.

      And, even if same gender marriages don't all last 25 years, they certainly can't do any worse than straight ones, with a 50% divorce rate.

      Would you care to try again? Absolutely nothing in this post shows any harm that will arise from marriage equality.

      June 26, 2012 at 11:10 am |
  6. Bob

    The man who has no sense of history, is like a man who has no ears or eyes"- Adolf Hitler
    "When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side," I calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already... What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community."- Adolph Hitler
    Who is being taught in our schools already? What about our history?

    June 24, 2012 at 4:33 pm |
    • midwest rail

      Predictable, pathetic nonsense.

      June 24, 2012 at 5:06 pm |
    • Bob

      “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

      SOURCE: Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels

      June 24, 2012 at 5:30 pm |
    • midwest rail

      More intentional obfuscation from the king of circular logic and logical fallacies. You've become boring.

      June 24, 2012 at 5:32 pm |
    • JWT

      So that's what bob is doing. Sorry bob – a lot of what you post is utter rubblish.

      June 24, 2012 at 6:16 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Apparently Bob is a Nazi, which comes as no surprise. The majority of the Nazis were christian, after all.

      June 26, 2012 at 1:46 am |
  7. Bob

    Quailty of life rating vary by who there from UN gave then high marks most others mid marks

    June 24, 2012 at 12:17 pm |
  8. Bob

    This is George Washington's farewell address, not only does it say what all Christians have been saying here but is a general condemnation of our current gov!!
    Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

    June 24, 2012 at 10:51 am |
    • Jen

      No morals without religion? Can you tell me why Canada has a lower abortion and murder per capita rate than the US despite being less religious?

      June 24, 2012 at 11:17 am |
    • HotAirAce

      That's one man's opinion from a time when everybody was expected to believe in some god(s) and to not believe could get you killed. Georgie may have been a patriot, a good to great military leader and a good president, but none of that qualifies him as an expert in religions (especially given all all religion is bullsh!t) and morality.

      June 24, 2012 at 11:24 am |
    • JWT

      The evidence is abundantly clear – religious belief is not required in order to be a moral person.

      June 24, 2012 at 11:25 am |
    • midwest rail

      Washington's farewell address, given as a PRIVATE citizen, is a wonderful piece of rhetoric. He was free to say whatever he wished, without the constraints placed upon a sitting president. That being said, his words, nor your protestations to the contrary, in any way replace our form of government. It was, is, and shall be a democratic republic – not a theocracy.

      June 24, 2012 at 11:27 am |
    • JWT

      If I lived in a society that demanded one be religious or else, I would be religious too. I would have to fake it though,.

      June 24, 2012 at 11:29 am |
    • Really-O?

      @Bob – regarding Jen's "No morals without religion?" post.

      Can you also explain why Norway and Sweden, in which the majority are non-believers, consistently are ranked in the "top five" with regard to quality of life?

      June 24, 2012 at 11:43 am |
    • Bob

      Washington gave this address as his farewell address means he was still in office
      Can rates 35 in population US is 3rd. Can is also bigger than the US being 2nd largest country, by size Russ,Can, US.

      June 24, 2012 at 12:00 pm |
    • Terry

      How about this Jen......would you like to live in the Sudan, Congo or Haiti....where witchcraft and voodoo are the main religion....do you like what you see there? Canada and the US were founded on Christian principles....you don't realize what you have had or what you are about to lose.....people today are so shallow in the their thoughts. Were you aware Jen that Canada has a born again Prime Minister and that roughly 40% of their parliment are christians....? Big parts of Canada are bible belt and other parts are not

      June 24, 2012 at 12:10 pm |
    • Jen

      Oh my goodness Bob – so you don't understand what per capita means? Just to explain it to you (even though any small child knows what it means) – it means Canada has a lower abortion and murder rate taking into account the smaller population. The US has 10 times the population of Canada, yet there are more than 10 times the murders in the US. Understand? My three year can explain it to you in further detail if you would like.

      Terry – Canada WAS NOT founded on Christian principles. That is a lie. 40% of Christians in parliament is a far cry from the percentage of Christians in the US government (I haven't looked it up but it is probably about the same percentage as the American population at large – which is almost double that number). The prime minister of Canada has stated his intention of not revisiting either gay marriage or abortion despite his own religious views.....at least he understands secularism. Strange that Canada has a lower abortion rate than the US when Canada has a lower rate of religion (your post confirms it) and has ZERO restrictions on abortion (unlike the US). Obviously morality and religion are mutually exclusive.

      Also, 80% of Haiti's population is Roman Catholic (and yeah, I wouldn't want to live there – I guess that proves that Christianity sucks). Another lie on your part.

      June 24, 2012 at 12:43 pm |
    • Bob

      Jen sorry didn't see per capita but with the liberalism here I am not surprised by the numbers. If we can have a show on tv 16 and pregnant then I can understand the abortion rates. Since trying to take God and morals out of the US why would anyone have any different thought. This wasn't the case in 1970 either. Abortion has spiked since then.

      June 24, 2012 at 1:23 pm |
    • Terry

      Jen I see others have had to instruct you. Go onto google and look up Canada's history. This country was founded on the word of God – Psalm 72 to be exact. Next questio – Jen have you been to Haiti?

      June 24, 2012 at 1:57 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      It can be argued that the USA and Canada were founded on so-called christian principles but given the domination of "the church" at the time, what would you have expected?

      What was in the head's of a country's founders and the odd (stupid, should be removed) reference to some god(s) in documents 100+ years ago does not bind current citizens.

      Re: Canada's PM – Harper is fucking idiot of the highest order! He doesn't undertand secularism – he's a hypocrite that understands he'd never get re-elected if he pused his cult's views.

      June 24, 2012 at 2:32 pm |
    • Jen

      Bob, I hate to break it to you, but Canada is far more liberal than the US is (you could argue that Canada's far right party is to the left of the democratic party in the US). So liberalism is not the reason. Canada shows almost all major American television channels and 16 and pregnant is a popular show in Canada. Also, abortion was illegal in the States in 1970 so it would have been difficult to keep records of the number of back alley abortions that occurred then. And contrary to your statement, as religion falls in the US, so does the abortion rate in recent years. Why do you think that is?

      Terry, are you talking about the 'from sea to sea' thing? I don't really consider that to be uber religious. I think a lot of the reason it was chosen was because Canada does extend from sea to sea......Also, I do not believe that either Canada or the US was founded on Christianity, but on the separation of church and state (Canada copied a lot from the US). Of course this is a source of constant debate, and I stand firmly on the latter side. I have never been to Haiti, nor do I want to visit. I do know that a large amount of people practice voodoo, but a greater number are Roman Catholics (I realize a great number practice both), and the official religion of the country is Catholic. I don't want to live there; I don't want to live in a Muslim theocracy, and I don't want to live in a Christian theocracy either. I have been to a great number of European countries. The majority are secular and I think most places there are great countries to live in. I think they show the success of secularism and are by no means 'immoral' countries despite the low percentage of religious people.

      HotAirAce – I'm no fan of Harper either, but at least I can give him credit for not putting his religion in front of his politics (even if for selfish reasons). Unlike that crazy former Republican nominee Santorum, who stated that a woman should consider a pregnancy derived from violent r-pe as a gift from God. Harper is an idiot, but he's not completely religiously insane.

      June 24, 2012 at 6:45 pm |
    • Terry

      Jen there is a huge chasm between what you believe and what the actual facts are. You cannot downplay historical facts. Your total ignorance regarding Stephen Harper is good.....it is better that people don't know what he is doing.....especially people with an atheist mindset

      June 25, 2012 at 11:43 am |
  9. Toma Joel

    Thus says The Lord, to the United States and to this wicked generation of modern peoples...

    Hear the word of The Lord your God, The God of Israel, The God of All, for there is no other: You are walking into death... Dead man’s bones lost in a sea of sin, a dark ocean of transgression! You have forgotten Me, days without end, thus must I also forget you in the Day of Harvest. Yet of your evil deeds, even all this wickedness of which you are guilty, I shall remember! Behold, I shall bring it to the forefront, that all who walk in it may receive of My punishment!... Then you shall know, there is a God in Heaven who reigns and judges the earth.

    http://www.TrumpetCallofGodOnline.com

    June 24, 2012 at 9:41 am |
    • JWT

      Not my god.

      June 24, 2012 at 10:02 am |
    • Bob

      JWT we already understand you are your own god

      June 24, 2012 at 10:16 am |
    • JWT

      No Bob I am not a god – if I were there would be a lot more interesting things happening in the sports world.

      June 24, 2012 at 10:41 am |
    • Bob

      JWT That was funny Ever watch Bruce Almighty?

      June 24, 2012 at 11:15 am |
    • JWT

      Sure it was a fun movie.

      June 24, 2012 at 11:24 am |
    • Praying is not healthy for a sound mind

      God made man in his image, God has DNA, God is human. Adam named the animals but could not write and the Jews didn't learn to write for thousands of years later and copied from religions (Sumerians) in the region established well before Adam/Eve. Cain went into the land of Nod and scored a wife....further evidence there were civilizations predating Adam. The Serphant never lied, their eyes were openned and saw God for what he was...one of them. It was God/men that lied to Adam attempting to protect him and keep him ignorant of the truth and from the outside world that was well established. Beings with DNA need flying vehicles like Ezekiel saw. The Jewish religion is simply copied and not original and is ismply false. Jesus was just another delusional person thinking they were a prophet. Men created and organized the "word of God"
      ...

      June 25, 2012 at 4:55 pm |
  10. Bob

    As a federal monarchy, the Canadian Crown is unitary throughout all jurisdictions in the country, with the headship of state being a part of all equally. As such, the sovereignty of the each is passed on not by the governor general or federal parliament, but through the overreaching Crown itself as a part of the executive, legislative, and judicial operations in Canada's

    June 24, 2012 at 8:35 am |
    • Jen

      The British government has NO POWER in setting Canadian laws Bob. Educate yourself.

      I agree with the others. What you just wrote has NOTHING to do with the questions I asked you. Stop being disingenuous.

      June 24, 2012 at 8:49 am |
    • Bob

      I realize that but that didn't happen till 1982 and the point was that the 2 countries are so radically different in their founding and now we see the US laws changing to be more like Canada's.

      June 24, 2012 at 9:16 am |
    • JWT

      Forms of government for 100 Alex

      Sorry Bob thats not the correct answer – 100 points.

      June 24, 2012 at 9:17 am |
    • Bob

      JWT you've already been proved a moron please stay out of this in order to keep any dignity left
      The Canada Act, 1982 No Act of the Parament of the UK passed after the Constution Act, 1982 comes into force shall extend to Canada as part of its law the French version of this Act is and has the same authority in Canada as the English version thereof This Act may be cited as the Canada Act 1982.

      June 24, 2012 at 9:35 am |
    • JWT

      As an explanation to Bob – Canada is a consti tutional Monarchy not a Federal Monarchy.

      Moron ? Interesting concept.

      June 24, 2012 at 9:49 am |
    • Jen

      Gay marriage passed after 1982 Bob. Both Canada and the US are democracies, and many of the forefathers of citizens of both countries emigrated from the same European countries. But just to clarify, is your argument that pedophilia and incest have remained illegal in Canada after gay marriage passed because Canada was founded differently than the US? Can you explain why this would be the case?

      Also, putting Canada aside, I live in MA now. Can you explain why MA has not gotten any closer to legalizing pedophilia and incest? MA is in the US (just in case there is any confusion on your part).

      June 24, 2012 at 11:13 am |
    • Bob

      Can and the US in the strictest form are not Demoacies Actually the US Consti says we are a Republic . There are differences and for the discussion each country was founded on ideals and laws were formed on those Ideals. The US was based on Christianity while Canada was formed by the Briti/French gov. One secular one Christian for this discussion I am more interested in the lies and the taking away of US history to change the shape of the country. So that in eventuality the US, Can and Mex can be joined. How could countries be joined with so vast a difference in formation unless people forget how and why each was formed and don't stay true to the founding fathers. I would argue that Canada is being true because Europe was the birthplace for Canada and doesn't have any religious affiliation per se.
      As for peds they have not been taken off the dsm yet but I would expect that in the newest revision unless the gov steps in which they have already because it was taken off once. If this is done then just like gays it will take time but they will push for legaliz, gays have been the model for this.

      June 24, 2012 at 11:45 am |
    • midwest rail

      Still being intentionally disingenuous, I see. Your laughably transparent attempts to link being gay with ped0philia is truly sad. The remainder of your comments are nothing but smoke and mirrors to disguise your true intent. The next time you engage in honest discourse will be the first time.

      June 24, 2012 at 11:51 am |
    • Bob

      midwest if you don't like the facts I understand. I can provide articles to back up that the peds were taken off the list till the gov came in if you would like

      June 24, 2012 at 12:23 pm |
    • midwest rail

      Whether they were or not is not the issue – the issue is your attempt to link being gay and being a child predator as one and the same. You already knew that, but choose once to obfuscate. I repeat – the next time you engage in honest discourse will be the first time.

      June 24, 2012 at 12:33 pm |
    • Bob

      Mid if the phychs cant determine deviant behavior then where is the line? Simple. and a real problem not a fake issue.Because if they cant then who can and when will that change also.

      June 24, 2012 at 12:58 pm |
    • midwest rail

      You're not asking because you desire an answer – one has been provided to you often, and repeatedly. Your sole purpose here is to somehow link being gay with being a predator. For the third and final time, sir, the next time you engage in honest discourse will be the first time.

      June 24, 2012 at 1:07 pm |
  11. Bob

    Mayflower Compact1620 IN THE NAME OF GOD, AMEN. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, etc. Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honor of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the first Colony in the northern Parts of Virginia;

    June 24, 2012 at 8:07 am |
    • midwest rail

      " No man is allowed to be a judge in his own cause, because his interest would certainly bias his judgement, and, not improbably, corrupt his integrity. " – James Madison

      June 24, 2012 at 8:37 am |
    • Bob

      Midwest thanks so much
      No man is allowed to be a judge in his own cause, because his interest would certainly bias his judgement, and, not improbably, corrupt his integrity. " – James Madison
      you have just confirmed the bias I was talking about in every article written about the Bible here. In one shot you have made the judges and physcs biased and should have been removed from making the decisions about gay marriage. including a gay judge presiding over the California decision in prop 8. Thanks couldn't have said it better. But as to me it had no relevance I wasnt around when this country was founded but want to remind all what it was founded on. So no bias more history.

      June 24, 2012 at 9:25 am |
    • midwest rail

      This country was NOT founded on the Mayflower Compact. Nice try, though.

      June 24, 2012 at 9:28 am |
    • Bob

      That is the historical basis for this country sorry. it also shows intent founding fathers thoughts and ideas of those that made this country.

      June 24, 2012 at 9:38 am |
    • Bob

      George Washington's farewell address How is it we are so lied to?????
      Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

      June 24, 2012 at 10:48 am |
  12. Sally

    JWT – You wrote that what my bible tells me only applies to me...right? And that "gay" is not a sin outside my religion with others....right? North Carolina voted gay marriage down – even California voted gay marriage down....and many of those people who voted it down are not christians...I know some of them. JWT you can close your eyes and plug your ears all you want – but being gay is a sin in my religion.....and if we took a global vote with Christians.....it would be a slam dunk honey!! Denial does not achieve anthing. There are a minority of churches worldwide that are buckling under pressure, but the majority know what the bible says and are not looking to change God or His original intent upon creation. You are only making yourself look foolish, by grandstanding that it is not a sin in our religion – sorry.
    Jen....it doesn't mean enough to me to take the time and do a bible study on this blog for you...it is not a one sentence answer and I have seen what you do to others who take the time to answer your questions.....not going fall into that trap:)

    June 24, 2012 at 2:14 am |
    • Granny Barb

      You have got to be joking JWT??

      June 24, 2012 at 2:20 am |
    • midwest rail

      Thankfully, America is not a theocracy. It is a democratic republic, which means something a lot different from what most folks think it does. Majority does not rule n matters of civil rights, and I suspect that when the SCOTUS finally rules on this issue, you're going to be very unhappy.

      June 24, 2012 at 2:28 am |
    • JWT

      I am not joking at all granny. Fortunately people are starting continuing to see the light ad agreeing that gays are ok and gay marriage is a right thing to allow all he time. It looks like the end of the mass bigotry is in sight.

      Regardless of the numbers christians are split on the topic – thus it is not an absolut that the bible is against gays and gays marriage. In any event it is a civil rights issue. Not to mention that for gays not of your brand of religion it is not a sin as they are not subject to your religious bigotry,

      June 24, 2012 at 5:29 am |
    • Jen

      Well Sally I see you did answer the question for me. You would think he would have added that men in the congregation should also not be allowed to speak. Why do they need to speak for if they are not leaders? Can you answer that? I'm sure some of the men were unruly from time to time. You also would think that he would have clarified that women are legitimate leaders in the Church, because the Catholic Church believes that men are the only ones that are allowed to lead the Church. Given that the Catholic Church is the LARGEST Christian denomination in the world, it's strange that their opinion differs on such a major issue.

      Also, have you looked up submission on that same website? The analogy that they use when a woman does not accept that she is to submit to her husband is the same as a child not obeying a teacher. I know I find it empowering as a woman when I am told I am to obey my husband like a child is to obey an adult :) It is also very clear that women are to do all the cooking and take care of the home. I know when I was working 60 hours a week while pregnant with my second child, it would have been impossible to add doing all of the cooking and cleaning to my job and taking care of my toddler. In fact I still share those responsibilities with my husband now while staying at home for the time being.

      But let me guess – we should just ignore the part of the website that says that.......

      June 24, 2012 at 9:07 am |
    • Sally

      Sorry Jen you lose this one:) The study clearly shows that women had a voice in the NT and they had positions is the church...you were not able to admit to being wrong – that is ok

      June 24, 2012 at 12:04 pm |
    • Jen

      So the Catholic Church (with the LARGEST Christian membership) is wrong?

      Also, do you follow the bible and obey your husband as a child obeys an adult? Not a Christian if you don't.....

      June 24, 2012 at 12:29 pm |
    • Sally

      Jen it is tiring trying to keep up with your questions that you could answer yourself. Yes the Catholic Church is wrong to do this. The areas that the Catholic Church is wrong in are numerous, but not here to debate this. My family is Catholic in heritage and I am not here to criticize this group.

      June 24, 2012 at 1:50 pm |
    • Jen

      Well I have no idea what denomination interprets the passage correctly (either way, only telling the women in the congregation to shut up and not men is degrading to women). My whole point is that mainstream Christianity does not follow the bible to the letter. Another example is re-marriage. The bible is clear that re-marrying is adultery, yet mainstream Christian churches allow it. They are not following the bible by allowing it to happen. I don't think it's a bad thing to not follow the bible to the letter (especially as a woman who doesn't want to be treated as second class). But it is hypocritical to overlook certain things in the bible and then use the bible against gays. Gays don't want to be treated as second class citizens either. And many mainstream Christian churches agree that they should be treated as equal – that you should treat others as you would want to be treated. That is also a good thing. You definitely do not have a right to tell somebody that calls themselves Christian that they are not a Christian. I don't see how anyone aside from your God gets to make that determination.

      June 24, 2012 at 6:58 pm |
    • Sally

      Jen – the bible is very clear that you are free to remarry if there has been adultery. Remarriage in general is not acceptable unless there is some kind of abuse going on. I can look deeply into any group and find all kinds of mistakes – and that is what you are doing Jen....but the thing is – finding the areas of weakness or hypocrisy do not negate the word of God or His principles. You will always be able to find a crooked church minister or a sub group that is nutty – or things that are inconsistant in the mainstream churches. You can invest hours trying to prove to us that we are not perfect and lots goes on in churches that shouldn't....but that will not remove the facts. omose-xuality is a sin – but God loves the sinner.

      June 25, 2012 at 11:34 am |
    • JWT

      Dear Sally – Hom ose xuality is not a sin for people that do not follow your brand of religion. Christianity is divided on the topic. You religion does not apply to non-members.

      June 25, 2012 at 6:47 pm |
    • Sally

      JWT – you are the worst kind of person to represent the gay camp. Being gay is a sin in the religion of Christianity – period. The fact that a minority of churches caved under pressure "to allow it".......should not be something you are impressed with. The largest majority of churches still do not allow gay marriage nor condone this lifestyle. I am still wanting to hear a voice of integrity from this camp – someone who can call bad behavior on the mat and has some backbone.....keep waiting

      June 26, 2012 at 1:23 am |
    • JWT

      Regardless of which christian camp we choose to think is right, gay is not a problem to anyone exepct the bigots who are the source of most of the problems within the gay community.

      So you cn keep your faulty morals based on your personal religion. You are welcome to hate gays but that does not mean other people have to. Your religion is yours alone and therin lies the #1 problem with some religious people – thay acannot accept that their religion is theirs and does not apply to other people. Grow some morals and accept it.

      June 26, 2012 at 6:58 am |
    • Sally

      JWT – do you believe what Muslims believe?? Didn't think so.....next question – do you hate them because of your differing views..??? You are one of the people on this blog with no integrity. I am a Christian and I do NOT hate gays – but I do not agree with their choices!!! Your thought process is quite self involved....with no movement of truth at all.....Can you all stretch yourselves to acknowledge that though we do not agree – we do not hate......(we all know that some gays and christians are hateful......but not all – right??)

      June 26, 2012 at 9:14 pm |
    • JWT

      The position of some christians that gays are sinners and wrong for being what they are is fine for those christians to hold. Bigoted but thats their personal problem.

      The problem comes in when these christians try to block things like gay marriage when it is something that is no concern of theirs. I'd certainly call it hateful. If it was not hateful then you would at the least stay away from the polls and let gays have their happiness.

      We certainly do disagree on the matter. You want to deny people their civil rights and I support their civil rights. Nothing that gay people do outside of your particular church is any business of yours.

      But since you seem to live and let live I know that you will vote to allow gay marriage in the future.

      June 26, 2012 at 9:25 pm |
    • JWT

      Added

      There is not a person in this world that I hate. My mother is a devout christian who shows all that good about christians and none of that BS about agree with me or go to hell, or your gay and go to hell or discriminating agianst gays. She understands that the laws of her religion do not apply to people outside her religious group. And she would never be so spitreful as to vote against gay marriage. Then again most christians are like her

      June 26, 2012 at 9:34 pm |
    • Sally

      Thank-you JWT – you have proven beyond doubt that you cannot graduate past serious navel gazing. You are not able to see anything that is beyond your own little world and even your mommy. It is impossible to have any discussion that is meaningful. I would never vote for gay marriage – even if it meant giving up my life – is it because I am hateful and bigoted....NO – it is because I love my God and I love what He created and all of His original intentions. I could go to dinner tomorrow with my sister and all of her gay friends and have a wonderful time.....I do not hate any of them....they are wonderful people....You will never be able to understand my heart, because it does not agree with yours.....I don't expect you to even understand this post.....it is outside of JWT's world

      June 26, 2012 at 11:19 pm |
    • JWT

      And yet you would vote against their marriage. You still have no clue that your religion does not apply. I understand full well where you are coming from – your god and I stress your – takes precedence over human rights and over other people that your god has no claim to. Tsk tsk tsk.

      Full of insults too. Alas.

      June 27, 2012 at 6:04 am |
    • JWT

      Oh I undeerstand it all right – your god's "laws" – as you see them – take precedence over all nomatter what. So sad.

      June 27, 2012 at 6:10 am |
    • JWT

      Now I understand – it's your version fo god that is a bigot. That makes perfect sense. Oh well at leasts it is only an imaginary god and even better that it's not my imgainary god.

      June 27, 2012 at 7:50 am |
  13. Jen

    Ok Sally, can you now explain why it is that you ignore the part of the bible that says you are not allowed to speak in Church, and why you do not ignore the part that says marriage is between a man and a woman?

    June 23, 2012 at 6:28 pm |
    • Jen

      That post should be down below.

      June 23, 2012 at 6:28 pm |
    • Sally

      JWT – you are right, it is a sin in the Christian faith, not necessarily to others or other faiths. It is my understanding that Buddhists do not highly endorse the gay lifestyle – is that true?
      Jen – I think that you mentioned that I am not the only one who knows about the faith community, that if fact your husband is Catholic. Women not speaking in church would be great study for you both.....unless he can give you some answers?? I was clear with you – that I am not willing to unpack the New Testament with you.....Paul's address to the Corinthian church in the New Testament is a lengthy study. You already have your mind made up that none of us Christian women work and are living degrading lives with our husbands....

      June 23, 2012 at 7:05 pm |
    • JWT

      No Sally – It is NOT a sin in the christian faith – it is a sin in YOUR version of the christian faith. It is not a sin to all christian.

      June 23, 2012 at 9:17 pm |
    • Sally

      Jen – Heres your answer. Google your question – "Why does the bible say women should not speak in church" – then go to top of page, where it says – Women in Ministry – bible.com (www.bible.com/bible answers. The complete study is there on the topic and it would take a long time to write out. Basically Paul was addressing women in the Corinthian church who were out of order – not women who held positions in ministry, and there are lots of women who had positions in ministry. There are many scriptures by Jesus himself – that clearly display His heart for women.....He did not discriminate in any way. He said – Neither Greek nor Jew, not female or male....all one in Christ. Anyone else who would like to actually understand scripture should check this out

      June 24, 2012 at 2:39 am |
  14. Bob

    The only way gays or straights become Christian is by God calling them. You cant know God unless He calls you first.So when anyone comes to accept the call of God accept Jesus and become a Christian he is actually starting on a journey with God.God has a plan and purpose for that person there are some God does not call. There is a change in that persons life by thoughts and actions that is visible to people around the one who has accepted Christ. This transformation results in conformation to looking more like Christ. If this does not happen then you have to question this persons salvation. There are many who on the out word have said they are Christians but on the inward are wolves and not Christians at all. Saying they are for their own purposes actually misleading those that want to become Christians. My personal view is gays can and do and become true Christians and deserve the same respect as other Christians. But until the lifestyle stops should not hold a position in the church, adopt kids or marry. The lifestyle is not good and causes errors in judgement as we see here. The best side in the gay world is the stable live together lives that are what the gays model to win support for gay marriage. This is only a really small percentage in the small percentage. With he Bible being the moral standard and Gods own words you cant change them because you don't like them. Its supposed to be the other way around you change when your behavior doesn't line up with Gods word. Straight or gay its the same thing the same transformation to becoming more like Christ. Aside from the drama anyone who has posted is really a poor example for gays. The Bishop John if he did write that post is a great example of what sin coupled with your own personal desires can do to distort the truth. If you wanted a outward show of how lies are made then you could easily look at his posts. It is the desire for acceptance that drives him to distort the Word of God not acceptance from man but from God. The weight of the words of the Lord can be heavy when you are in sin gay or straight
    Immoral men sin against their own body so in some respects gays are harmless and have good sides just like everyone else, the problem is again changing the world to accept a lifestyle that is immoral. It is offensive to me and quite a few others no less than when me or anyone offends gays. The difference is that I don't want to change the laws of the US to accommodate my particular sin. This is the harm done to the world. If I was a drunk only as a example and got the laws changed so my alcoholism was accepted so I could be drunk at any hour, that I couldn't be arrested when drunk in the streets or fired when on the job as long as I performed ok then what affect would that have on society? There are many functional alcoholics that raise families and seemingly live normal lives but we can more easily see the costs of the behavior. The seen and unseen in their lives affect those around them and shapes minds and society.The idea of teaching kids fisting in school is absolutely horrible to me totally unacceptable yet this is a good thing for gays. I have seen many gays struggle I wouldn't want to be in their shoes its can be tough. If I have insulted or made any of the gays here think that I think less of them I am sorry but I stand on my statements made but they were not made in consideration of the feelings of the gays that may be reading this. For that I am sorry. Fiery words only fan the flame of discontent.

    June 23, 2012 at 7:35 am |
    • JWT

      The United States is not an extension of your personal religion – nor should it ever be nor was it ever such.

      Gays are immoral to you personally – not to the nation. All this means is you should not be gay – not that you have a say in the matter. Gays are not immoral to a lot of other people – over half the nation believes that gays should be allowed to marry and enjoy the full rights and responsibiliies of that act.

      The main fallacy that you have is that you do not speak for all – your god is not the god of all and your morals are not the morals of all nor should they be.

      Personally as logn as you consider gays second class citizens and immoral then you are an immoral person.

      June 23, 2012 at 10:01 am |
    • JWT

      Comapring alcoholics to gays – thats just foolishness.

      June 23, 2012 at 10:06 am |
    • Bob

      JWT
      you are a loser to say the least. anything else that I would say to you would be downhill from there.

      June 23, 2012 at 11:17 am |
    • JWT

      Truly fascinating Bob. I'm a loser in comparison to you – hmmmm. But at least I am not a bigot. You can continue with your beliefs but just stop denyign other people their rights. You are an equal with all the anti-blakcs from 60 years ago – you were just born a couple of generations too late.

      June 23, 2012 at 11:56 am |
    • Jen

      Oh look. Bob called JWT a loser. Anyone that is against gay marriage going to defend JWT and call Bob out??? Anyone? Anyone? Didn't think so.....

      June 23, 2012 at 1:06 pm |
    • Bob

      Jen The usual bs that the gay community is known for, and then they wonder why all the resentment. I would say the term bigot does apply to both of you very well. If you don't like the facts to bad, Like that the reason that gays came off the dsm was that physcs didn't want to determine deviant behavior anymore and said that if your ok then anything goes its only if you have a problem with it? refuted it,care to? You can say that all the researchers blah blah blah but that all boils down to this wording Like I said before you dont have the civil right to get married just as you cant marry your sister. Oh maybe with Jen and JWT you'll want that to be allowed too along with peds. There is also even less basis for it in the Bible and anything else is a lie distorting the truth. I also notice you didnt say anything about kids being taught fisting in school and if this is being done why aren't peds ok whats the difference except age which is trying to be lowered as we speak. I wonder if they change the age limit it Jerry Sandusky will get out of jail. So this is the secular society that we are moving to well I say it is a modern day Sodom and Gomorrah because i don't see any standard that will hold. Anything is open to interpretation by mans morals and in the world we see today that is anything goes.

      June 23, 2012 at 1:48 pm |
    • Bob

      JWT either you are not a US citizen or don't have any idea of the history of the US either. And to think I was called stupid by you losers that don't even know the US history. So why would you give a dam if you preserve the history and respect for the values of this country if you don't know them. Let me give you a clue it was not built on the gay agenda Just Another brick in the wall.

      June 23, 2012 at 2:34 pm |
    • JWT

      Still a bigot bob – well that's ok at least we all know you for what you aree. Live in peace. maybe one day you can live in a theocracy – be really funny thought if a reliigion other than your own.

      Sandusky has nothing to do with this topic at all. Try growing up.

      June 23, 2012 at 2:58 pm |
    • Jen

      Bob, I was born in Canada (I live in the US now). Canada is a secular society. In fact, the number on one difference between the US and Canada is religious differences. Many people in Canada are either not religious AT ALL, or religion plays a small role in their lives. As such, gay marriage became legal there years ago with little issue.

      Can you explain why, despite gay marriage being legal and Canada being a secular society, why incest and pedophilia are illegal and are in no way, shape or form on their way to being legal?

      Also, I live in Massachusetts now. Why has NOTHING changed in MA since gay marriage became legal?

      June 23, 2012 at 4:53 pm |
    • Jen

      Remove the word on between one and difference.

      June 23, 2012 at 4:55 pm |
    • Bob

      Don't worry about the spelling, but how long did it take gays to be taken off the dsm and come to the point their at? Can you also give me with the current definition in the dsm about gays that will be the same for peds in the 2013 revision and if they lower the age why it wouldn't be made legal? What would be the basis for denying them their rights and not being looked upon as normal people? In 1973 when the decision came about gays no one gave it much thought, but look now.

      June 23, 2012 at 7:01 pm |
    • midwest rail

      Good grief, man. How many times must it be pointed out that there is a significant difference between two consenting adults and a pedophile preying on a child ? Are you being intentionally disingenuous ?

      June 23, 2012 at 7:05 pm |
    • Bob

      Would a 17 year old that consents be a child or adult or say 16 or even 15? by law now but if the age of consent is changed then what. The age of consent is lower in other countries. this would make the person who was a pedophile just gay by a change of law only.

      June 23, 2012 at 9:00 pm |
    • midwest rail

      Yep – intentionally disingenuous. Next.

      June 23, 2012 at 9:06 pm |
    • JWT

      As midwest says..

      June 23, 2012 at 9:22 pm |
  15. Bob

    Tom I think Sally is hot for you.

    June 22, 2012 at 9:05 pm |
    • Relish

      I think Bob, Sally, James, and Lorraine are all pretty smokin hot!!!!!!!! Feelin the heat

      June 22, 2012 at 11:27 pm |
  16. Sally

    Hi Tom Tom....knew it was you!! You just couldn't leave our beautiful discussion xxoo

    June 22, 2012 at 7:42 pm |
  17. Lorraine

    Yeahright, from your side of the world this maybe so, as I have said, those who have gained, or earned privileges in this world may feel this way, but for those who have none, or are not able to get educated, or have sufficient finances that is needed in this society, drowning in imposed poverty from their living conditions, and exposed environments, unfortunately this is what their world consists of, and many innocent deaths happen just from poverty alone. One other example is the stereotypical incident that happened with the boy Trevon Martin in Florida gunned down by Mr. Zimmerman, these kinds of things happen so often in our society, and in certain environments all day long. Yes, we have helpful assistance in our world too, but so many innocent lives are lost, in comparison to the ones that are saved that it is overwhelming to believe. As a society, because of bureaucracy and red tape, much of this help goes into the pockets of the privileged first. Or to certain districts to get help from, and lets be realistic, greed, and selfishness is always the case in many of this world's troubles. When Obama won for President, droves of people were out there all ethnics, creeds, and colors, but when the dog, and pony show was over, everyone reverted back to what they always do ignore what is truly going on around them, in difference, hate, injustice, greed etc. .As prophesied in Daniel 2 vs. 40-43, that they would do, not cleave to one another. To be honest we have more problems than being gay, our morality, and righteousness, peace, are in jeopardy, or for the most part all gone.

    June 22, 2012 at 6:22 pm |
    • JWT

      Being gay is not a problem unless one is set on by the bigots.

      June 22, 2012 at 8:01 pm |
  18. James

    I will not defend Christians who are racist, or hateful, I will condemn their behavior publicly. But it is truly amazing that in the arena of supporters for gay marriage....they will defend and stand behind the worst behavior you can imagine. I have yet to see one of the "supporters" condemn bad behavior in the gay camp. Has anyone said a word about John Travolta – no sir....this is an example of what are facing

    June 22, 2012 at 4:13 pm |
    • JWT

      We stand behind the concept og gays being fully members of society wiithout being looked down upon as wrong or deviants, which they are not.

      As to individuals – so what it makes no difference what religion or group we are talkign about there are good and bad people and everything in between.

      June 22, 2012 at 4:41 pm |
    • Sally

      Sounds good JWT....then put your money where your mouth is and start addressing some of the bad behavior...that is arising in the gay support camp, you have been super at addressing the Christian comments

      June 22, 2012 at 4:45 pm |
    • JWT

      You mean on the boards – waste of finger skin. Both sides have their trolls like Bob and Tom. IRL – what behaviour are you talkign about. I don;t follow the gay public figures at all.

      June 22, 2012 at 5:56 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      What "bad behavior"?

      And what would bad behavior have to do with gay marriage?

      June 22, 2012 at 5:58 pm |
    • JWT

      Nothing.

      June 22, 2012 at 6:44 pm |
    • Bob

      Excellent point James!!

      June 22, 2012 at 7:26 pm |
    • Todd

      I Really agree James good job

      June 22, 2012 at 10:02 pm |
    • Brenda

      We want to make sure we do the right thing they could care less as long as they make their own point

      June 22, 2012 at 10:03 pm |
    • JWT

      Exactly what are they doing wrong ?

      June 22, 2012 at 10:07 pm |
    • surebet103

      James I have been looking at these posts and have seen how straight people are treated especially those that are Christian and it is really bad. Just because you have a different view than theirs. I think its dreadful.

      June 22, 2012 at 10:45 pm |
  19. TC

    "Bob

    This is why if people dont pick up on the morality issue and fall back to this reasoning then there is no perversion taht will not b allowed. The lawmakers have always used physcs judgment now that there is none the gays have actually exploited the void because as we all know the law makers cater to whoever screams the loudest"

    It's simple, Dear. something that one person IS , or DOES, doesn't harm anyone else, then it's not immoral. YOU don't have to like it, or believe in it, or do it yourself.

    Just because you like to believe something is "perversion", doesn't make it so. Most often, the perversion is spawned by your own purient thoughts, which you then blame on others.

    June 22, 2012 at 2:08 pm |
    • Bob

      Sorry TC it does hurt people and the family. if you are gay then fine but marrying and adopting children is another story.

      June 22, 2012 at 9:03 pm |
    • JWT

      Gay marriage hurts no one – neither does lesbians or gays adopting or having children

      June 22, 2012 at 10:08 pm |
  20. Lorraine

    Janet, and yeahright, go figure, I have not judged being 'gay' or anything in particular here; for as far as I'm concerned many wrong doings that are perpetrated today as being considered 'good' and it is not good to do such as; injustice, crime, guns, prejudice, lying, hate, perversion, stealing, greed, imposed poverty, in difference, whoring, etc. etc., distributing processed foods, water, and eating unclean, and idolatry of all these religions, this is all bad, but it is considered the norm for this society today. We are all conditioned to think that life is to be this frivolous, that we overlook life as being our major concern, and as being precious in this world. It is not considered that, oh unless you have certain privileges, income, status etc..and I'm sorry, but this is not civil. And, not the way of righteousness, and peace that the Creator YHWH intended for us ALL, not just some, as said in Isaiah 56. This still does not make none of it right. Therefore, myself, and no one else has room to condemn another for we all are a part of this mess we are in, and Only YHWH can decide, and until then, many should all take a good look in their own mirrors. Look around you, and tell me if what you see is truly good, war is madness, poverty is mayhem, perversion, and greed is ramped, and so is senseless killing, etc. etc. These are the results of us doing whatever we want, without the law of life in Deut. 32 vs. 45-47, of doing right by one another, with real peace through YHWH.

    June 22, 2012 at 1:57 pm |
    • TC

      And a huge number of gay folks accept Christ as their personal savior, and are Christian to the core.

      Still gay, though.

      June 22, 2012 at 2:09 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Look around you, and tell me if what you see is truly good, war is madness, poverty is mayhem, perversion, and greed is ramped, and so is senseless killing, etc. etc. These are the results of us doing whatever we want, without the law of life in Deut. 32 vs. 45-47, of doing right by one another, with real peace through YHWH."

      Wow who have you been hanging out with? Geese. I do see honest goodness in our world, since for me the glass is half-empty. It's why when Christians want to go backwards that they need reminding of the horrific things in our past that made us less moral, like slavery and treating women as property. The majority people in this world are good human beings while trying to make sense of the societies we have created. You can't condemn the whole group based on a few that do the horrific things. Even in tragedies, hero's often step up. The things you point out are all fixable issues, even global warming is a fixable issue. Look at our coral reefs, they have now found a way to bring them back. Look at AIDS there is a very good chance they have found a cure based on the results of being able to cure it now in monkeys. Yes, we have made some terrible mistakes but we have also done some amazing things through love and goodness. It's that nagging issue of perspective. The gay issue is just another of our mistakes we have to fix. It's why some pastors are writing apology letters to the gay community because they realize their rhetoric only fueled the hatred and bigotry towards this minority group and it was unfounded in their own prejudices. People want to give, people want to help, and often they just need guidance on how. Do yourself a favor and volunteer for habitat for humanity or building together you'll be surprised what you find.

      June 22, 2012 at 2:22 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "since for me the glass is half-empty"

      That was suppose to read half-full.

      June 22, 2012 at 2:23 pm |
    • JWT

      Having god in your life is no different than having no god in your life when it comes to morality.

      June 22, 2012 at 2:31 pm |
    • Sally

      TC – not possible. If you have truly accepted Jesus Christ, then you are no longer gay or you are in the process of losing the gay lifestyle. Anyone who is gay and calls themself a christian is in GREAT deception. It is very sad that this group of people are so decieved and are unwilling to change. I pray that each one recieves a revelation of the word of God, so they can make the changes and be ready for His coming

      June 22, 2012 at 4:21 pm |
    • JWT

      Welll sally I hate to be the one to tell you but there are many christian churches that accept ans perform gay marriages and have gay ministers. They are all as christian as you or anyone else that claims that they are christian. Get over it.

      June 22, 2012 at 4:43 pm |
    • Sally

      No they are not. This is the kind of crap you guys say that makes you lose all credibility. You should be more in shock and awe that these gay people have picked a religion that condemns their behavior....It would be so refreshing to see one person on this blog address the utter confusion that is over these people. Even if you could admit that you personally do not understand it.....but no – we must stick together even if it looks totally ridiculous and mentally unstable. Go for it

      June 22, 2012 at 4:51 pm |
    • JWT

      There is no confusion – being gay is a perfctly fine and healthy way to be. People need to accept or at least not carry on as if it were something bad.

      June 22, 2012 at 5:54 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Sally, there are many Christian churches that welcome gays and do not view them as you do. There are many theologians who interpret the bible differently than you do and do not see it as condemning gays. Why should your opinion hold sway?

      Why do you continue to call it a "lifestyle"? It's no more a "lifestyle" than being straight is a "lifestyle".

      June 22, 2012 at 6:02 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Almost forgot, Sally. What makes you believe that gays are "mentally unstable"?

      June 22, 2012 at 6:05 pm |
    • Sally

      Tom Tom you don't read or listen properly. What looks ridiculous and mentally unstable is when we stand with those who are truly showing bad, unstable behavior and call it good and normal as you do Tommy. I never said all gays are mentally unstable. Some christians do not deserve support in any way as James pointed out, and should called on the carpet publicly. But you will NEVER hear anyone say step up and be honest from the gay marriage support camp on these blogs. There are many in the gay camp who do not deserve support.....some are hateful, bigoted and have committed crimes against humanity...someone used John Travolta as an example....

      June 22, 2012 at 7:02 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Again, WHAT "bad, unstable behavior"? Just what is it you think Travolta did that was a 'crime against humanity'? And what does this supposed "bad behavior' have to do with making gay marriage legal?

      Or are you going to keep avoiding answering?

      June 22, 2012 at 7:06 pm |
    • Sally

      I knew it!!! You would defend John Travolta who is gay and has attacked people s-exually. This is exactly what I have been saying. You guys don't stand up and call bad behavior on the table. Thank-you for proving to me what – I am seeing

      June 22, 2012 at 7:20 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Thanks for proving you're just another little troll. I figured as much.

      I won't bother to waste my time.

      June 22, 2012 at 7:21 pm |
    • Sally

      Good!!!!! (and just to help you out – I clearly was not making a point about gay marriage...I was making a point about hypocritical behavior)

      June 22, 2012 at 7:25 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Sally

      " You should be more in shock and awe that these gay people have picked a religion that condemns their behavior"
      This coming from someone who subscribes to a religion that teaches that every single person in the world is an unworthy pile of sc.um that doesn't deserve anythin merely because they exist. Yup you're not hypocritical at all.

      June 22, 2012 at 7:26 pm |
    • Sally

      Hi Tom Tom...knew it was you all disguised!! We are sons and daughters of God – not a pile of sc-um. Its our choice right? God is love....but He is not obli-gated to love all that we do on this earth

      June 22, 2012 at 7:45 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Sally

      I think you're listening to the crazy of HeavenSent to much. Tom Tom is a completely different person. But then again paranoia tends to run rampant around here.
      Also, eternal torture and all-loving are mutually exclusive concepts.

      June 22, 2012 at 7:50 pm |
    • Jen

      Sally, I'm always in shock and awe that women choose a religion where they are below men. The bible is clear. Women must submit to their husbands, must obey, and must never speak in church. Think women are equal to men? Then you can't be a true Christian. It's impossible.

      June 22, 2012 at 8:20 pm |
    • Sally

      Way to steer off topic Jen. I speak in church, and am a leader, and have an equal voice as the men in our church...what church do you attend Jen? Or is this what you read in Tom Tom Hawaii 's newsletter

      June 22, 2012 at 8:57 pm |
    • Bob

      Jen
      Actually you are not really correct if you ever read a Bible you would understand that God said you are to love your wife as Christ loved the church. He gave His life for the church, nurtured it helped it taught it provided for it. This is so much a romance than could ever be thought of by the movies. There is a pattern for headship and family relationship that is in the Bible and yes the man is the head of the family.
      Pro 31:10 Who can find a virtuous and capable wife? She is more precious than rubies.
      Pro 31:11 Her husband can trust her, and she will greatly enrich his life.
      Pro 31:12 She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life.
      Pro 31:13 She finds wool and flax and busily spins it.
      Pro 31:14 She is like a merchant's ship, bringing her food from afar.
      Pro 31:15 She gets up before dawn to prepare breakfast for her household and plan the day's work for her servant girls.
      Pro 31:16 She goes to inspect a field and buys it; with her earnings she plants a vineyard.
      Pro 31:17 She is energetic and strong, a hard worker.
      Pro 31:18 She makes sure her dealings are profitable; her lamp burns late into the night.
      Pro 31:19 Her hands are busy spinning thread, her fingers twisting fiber.
      Pro 31:20 She extends a helping hand to the poor and opens her arms to the needy.
      Pro 31:21 She has no fear of winter for her household, for everyone has warm clothes.
      Pro 31:22 She makes her own bedspreads. She dresses in fine linen and purple gowns.
      Pro 31:23 Her husband is well known at the city gates, where he sits with the other civic leaders.
      Pro 31:24 She makes belted linen garments and sashes to sell to the merchants.
      Pro 31:25 She is clothed with strength and dignity, and she laughs without fear of the future.
      Pro 31:26 When she speaks, her words are wise, and she gives instructions with kindness.
      Pro 31:27 She carefully watches everything in her household and suffers nothing from laziness.
      Pro 31:28 Her children stand and bless her. Her husband praises her:
      Pro 31:29 "There are many virtuous and capable women in the world, but you surpass them all!"
      Pro 31:30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty does not last; but a woman who fears the LORD will be greatly praised.
      Pro 31:31 Reward her for all she has done. Let her deeds publicly declare her praise.

      June 22, 2012 at 8:59 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Sally

      Still subscribing to HeavenSent's crazy I see. Well as I said, continue with your paranoia if you must, it just lets me laugh at you that much harder.

      June 22, 2012 at 9:08 pm |
    • Jen

      Okay, let me spell this out for you Sally, since you didn't get what I was saying at all. You said you are in shock and awe that gay people choose a religion that condemns them. I was saying that I am in shock and awe that women who think they are equal to men pick a religion where this is not the case. See the parallel? So what if your church allows you to speak? How is that ANY different than a Christian church allowing gay marriage? They are BOTH going against the bible. There is NO difference.

      HawaiiGuest, I'm guessing that people like Sally can not fathom that more than one person disagrees with her out of the seven billion on this planet. Therefore we must all be that one person.....

      June 22, 2012 at 9:44 pm |
    • token

      The Muslims are starting to look real good maybe we could have more of that here in the US and there would be far less problems especially with gays.

      June 22, 2012 at 10:08 pm |
    • Sally

      Jen we don't see your parallel...sorry. It is like comparing apples and oranges. Let me say kindly – you don't what you are talking about. Your knowledge of church and the bible is fairly limited, thus making this discussion next to impossible. It would be very hard to unpack the New Testament with you on this blog...but in short you are way off base with this topic. There are some strange "Christian sub groups" that still hold women and children in an oppressive place...but I don't know any churches out of thousands that practice the degrading behavior you are describing. The churches I know practice a culture of honor, at home and in the church, and community. It is largely the christian community that are doing HUGE projects in Africa, India and other nations to bring women into an equal place, so they can make a living and leave any abusive situation they may be in. This is a global work to bring women/children into their destiny. Out of slavery and into the community. You know so little about what is happening in the faith community, and that is ok because – you just don't know

      June 22, 2012 at 11:05 pm |
    • Sally

      Token....where are you from my dear??? They kill people who are gay in Muslim countries, it is against the law!!! That was a very cruel thing to say

      June 22, 2012 at 11:08 pm |
    • Jen

      Well Sally, my husband is Catholic – so he knows nothing about the Christian community? You are the ONLY person in the ENTIRE WORLD that knows anything about the faith community?

      Yes, mainstream Christianity ignores the MANY parts of the bible that subjugate women (apparently many Christians believe God had no idea what he was talking about in those parts of the bible). That was not always the case. Women have worked very hard. The bible was always used to keep women from voting and to keep them in the home. Even Bob's supposedly positive posts about women above are mostly promoting women staying at home doing extremely mundane domestic activities. Well, some Christian denominations are starting to ignore parts of the bible that allude to gay marriage being wrong as well. This is positive. Just like women have fought – gays are fighting for more acceptance as well. And acceptance will increase – not to 100 percent of Christian churches- but it will. That is a good thing.

      June 23, 2012 at 6:46 am |
    • Sally

      Sorry Jen your perspective just does not match the Christian Church today. I have looked back over several posts you have made, and the low class, degrading place you think women hold in the church – just does not exist. Your comments are kind of funny.....my whole point is that I am not the only person who knows the truth about how women are treated in the faith community – ask thousands of people and you will find out. You are caught way back in the vote??!! As I said the Christian community has hundreds of projects worldwide to bring women into equal status..(notice no comment, oh well). We don't ignore the bible Jen.....we understand it

      June 23, 2012 at 10:25 am |
    • Sally

      Oh and your silly comment about Bob's post.....are you under the impression that christian women stay home and don't go to work?????? Do you live way up north Jen?

      June 23, 2012 at 10:32 am |
    • Jen

      I never said that the Christian community still subjugates women. My whole point is that they ignore the bible when they treat women equally. The bible is clear that women are not to speak in church. Do you dispute that?

      Answer this question Sally. Why can't gays be Christians? You said above that they can not unless they are no longer gay or are losing the gay lifestyle. Jesus never said anything about gays, so why are they living in deception if they call themselves Christian?

      June 23, 2012 at 1:05 pm |
    • Sally

      The bible clearly front and back defines marriage as between a man and a woman. Jesus speaks about marriage clearly and does not mention men with men, He speaks of a man with one woman. Being gay is considered a sin, it is outside His plan for His creation. There are many sins in the bible and this is one of them. That is what makes some of your arguments hard to answer, because you want to lump everything together and call it a day. Some of your points are in separate catagories, they cannot all be the same issue. Maybe your husband can explain some of this to you

      June 23, 2012 at 5:06 pm |
    • JWT

      Remember Sally that what YOUR bible tells you only applies to you. Gay is not a sin outside your particular brand of religion. It is not of necessity a sin to anyone else.

      June 23, 2012 at 5:21 pm |
    • Jen

      Sally, can you now explain why it is that you ignore the part of the bible that says you are not allowed to speak in Church, and why you do not ignore the part that says marriage is between a man and a woman?

      June 23, 2012 at 6:30 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.