Editor's Note: Mark Osler is a Professor of Law at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
By Mark Osler, Special to CNN
I am a Christian, and I am in favor of gay marriage. The reason I am for gay marriage is because of my faith.
What I see in the Bible’s accounts of Jesus and his followers is an insistence that we don’t have the moral authority to deny others the blessing of holy institutions like baptism, communion, and marriage. God, through the Holy Spirit, infuses those moments with life, and it is not ours to either give or deny to others.
A clear instruction on this comes from Simon Peter, the “rock” on whom the church is built. Peter is a captivating figure in the Christian story. Jesus plucks him out of a fishing boat to become a disciple, and time and again he represents us all in learning at the feet of Christ.
During their time together, Peter is often naïve and clueless – he is a follower, constantly learning.
After Jesus is crucified, though, a different Peter emerges, one who is forceful and bold. This is the Peter we see in the Acts of the Apostles, during a fevered debate over whether or not Gentiles should be baptized. Peter was harshly criticized for even eating a meal with those who were uncircumcised; that is, those who did not follow the commands of the Old Testament.
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Peter, though, is strong in confronting those who would deny the sacrament of baptism to the Gentiles, and argues for an acceptance of believers who do not follow the circumcision rules of Leviticus (which is also where we find a condemnation of homosexuality).
His challenge is stark and stunning: Before ordering that the Gentiles be baptized Peter asks “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
None of us, Peter says, has the moral authority to deny baptism to those who seek it, even if they do not follow the ancient laws. It is the flooding love of the Holy Spirit, which fell over that entire crowd, sinners and saints alike, that directs otherwise.
My Take: Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality
It is not our place, it seems, to sort out who should be denied a bond with God and the Holy Spirit of the kind that we find through baptism, communion, and marriage. The water will flow where it will.
Intriguingly, this rule will apply whether we see homosexuality as a sin or not. The water is for all of us. We see the same thing at the Last Supper, as Jesus gives the bread and wine to all who are there—even to Peter, who Jesus said would deny him, and to Judas, who would betray him.
The question before us now is not whether homosexuality is a sin, but whether being gay should be a bar to baptism or communion or marriage.
Your Take: Rethinking the Bible on homosexuality
The answer is in the Bible. Peter and Jesus offer a strikingly inclusive form of love and engagement. They hold out the symbols of Gods’ love to all. How arrogant that we think it is ours to parse out stingily!
I worship at St. Stephens, an Episcopal church in Edina, Minnesota. There is a river that flows around the back and side of that church with a delightful name: Minnehaha Creek. That is where we do baptisms.
The Rector stands in the creek in his robes, the cool water coursing by his feet, and takes an infant into his arms and baptizes her with that same cool water. The congregation sits on the grassy bank and watches, a gentle army.
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At the bottom of the creek, in exactly that spot, is a floor of smooth pebbles. The water rushing by has rubbed off the rough edges, bit by bit, day by day. The pebbles have been transformed by that water into something new.
I suppose that, as Peter put it, someone could try to withhold the waters of baptism there. They could try to stop the river, to keep the water from some of the stones, like a child in the gutter building a barrier against the stream.
It won’t last, though. I would say this to those who would withhold the water of baptism, the joy of worship, or the bonds of marriage: You are less strong than the water, which will flow around you, find its path, and gently erode each wall you try to erect.
The redeeming power of that creek, and of the Holy Spirit, is relentless, making us all into something better and new.
The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Mark Osler.
If gay is ok, what about gay incest? They can't procreate, they aren't hurting anyone. So where is the problem? Many gays in fact do have a problem with this, but I don't know why. Maybe many of the mainstream gays are as intolerant as the far right. I'm simply using their same arguments. Any argument used in favor or gay marriage can also be applied to gay/incest marriage. Maybe this is what Christianity is all about, love in all forms.
You should be on Piers Morgan and Anderson Cooper Mark!!! You can be the new face for the gay camp......they need someone like you. The most facinating thing here is that not one of them has corrected you......maybe all of those who support gay marriage think like you do......guess we are left to wonder....hhmmm
Don't feed the trolls/
Ash, Bob, and ttwp, Zerubbabel was not born before, Zadok, check in book of II Samuel, Zadok was with David, Zerubbabel was with Ezra, Daniel, and his slave name was Belteshazzar, and Jeremiah, in the sixth century, all prophesied by Isaiah who was in the eighth century, 200 years before, and they were all captives following the command from YHWH to restore Jerusalem, and the temple, but it was stopped by a lying letter to Cyrus who freed them to restore. The command begins in the last verse of Isaiah 44v28, and Isaiah 45 vs. 1-4, and vs.14-16, of Cyrus who was anointed by the spirit of YHWH to beat gov. Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, and the gov. of Ethiopia, and of the Sabeans, next, go to Daniel 9 v.25,26, of the Messiah, and the Prince, and it was Zerubabbel of Judah, then, to prove that, you go to Ezra 1v.8, and you will see that the prince of Judah was Sheshbazzar, which was Zerrubabel's slave captive name, 'look it up' of the same command, and this command is also in II Chronicles 36 v. 21-23, to restore Jerusalem. Just on that first page of mathew there are lies, as in mathew 2v1,2, of jc being born in judaea, and it should be Ephratah Bethlehem as prophesied in Micah 5 v. 1,2. Then, was there two jacobs one by mattan, then one by Isaac? Furthermore, what 'seed' was jc born of because again there was no conception of a man, and a woman, sounds like the anti-christ, the idol that Daniel 11v.39, warned us about of the future generations that will be ruled by, and this idol will rule over many, for gain, that the forefathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob knew not of. This was also prophesied from YHWH to Moses in Deut. 32v17, of the latter days. This is why YHWH says in Malachi 2, Jeremiah 23 v. 1-5, and Ezekiel 20, and Ezekiel 34, of all the priest, popes, elders,shepherds, and pastors who are lying to the flocks misleading them, from days of old until now, but in Ezekiel 34, a future prophecy, YHWH also tells us that He will rescue His flocks from these liars. And, YHWH even tells us of how they profane His holy name in Ezekiel 36 vs. 22,23, and in His day of vengeance, in Isaiah 34v8, we will all know Him. It is not that I have been mislead, but many of the flocks have been taught lies, but it was all allowed by YHWH to magnify Himself, for when His time comes, as in Isaiah 51vs.5, for His time is near. And YHWH changes not in Malachi 3v6, nothing of His law. YHWH is who? jc?, wow, you've really been mislead. Read, in Isaiah 45 vs. 5-7, YHWH tells us that there is no one besides Him, and in Isaiah 44v22, He tells us that He did all of this alone, and by Himself. And in Isaiah 43vs.11, that He is the only savior. Also, Isaiah 49v26, and Isaiah 60v16. Awaken, but many will when His day comes. And no Ash, I am not trying to teach here for every man is responsible for his own righteousness, Ezekiel 14v14, Ezekiel 18, and Jeremiah 31vs.30. One must pray to ask for understanding, and do the law in Exodus 20, Exodus 12, and the Sabbath, and remember in Isaiah 56, YHWH is speaking to all the nations, and read Genesis – Malachi, for YHWH does nothing without His prophets, so we won't be deceived, which is taught to us in Amos 3v7.
Well Lorriane the elevator is still not reaching the top floor. Your confusion is so bad, I cannot even read one of your sentences
I see Bob has been spreading his verbal diarrhea. Bob's house must be a lonely and creepy place with only Bob there.
Since the ignorant fundiots are so fond of posting random meaningless verses from their bible, here are some random verses from the Primewonk bible. I happen to think that my verses make a hell of lot more sense than yours –
ADVISORY: There is an Extremely Small but Nonzero Chance That, Through a Process Know as "Tunneling," This Post May Spontaneously Disappear from Its Present Location and Reappear at Any Random Place in the Universe, Including Your Neighbor's Domicile. God Will Not Be Responsible for Any Damages or Inconvenience That May Result.
PUBLIC NOTICE AS REQUIRED BY LAW: Any Use of This Post, in Any Manner Whatsoever, Will Increase the Amount of Disorder in the Universe. Although No Liability Is Implied Herein, the Believer Is Warned That This Process Will Ultimately Lead to the Heat Death of the Universe.
Einstein 16:24 Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Gould 1:15-16 Human consciousness arose but a minute before midnight on the geological clock. Yet we mayflies try to bend an ancient world to our purposes, ignorant perhaps of the messages buried in its long history. Let us hope that we are still in the early morning of our April day.
Bohr 2:11 Anyone who is not shocked by quantum theory has not understood it.
Szilard 88:16 I'm all in favor of the democratic principle that one idiot is as good as one genius, but I draw the line when someone takes the next step and concludes that two idiots are better than one genius.
Sagan 22:1 For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reàssuring.
Feynman 110:55 …it doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are - if it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.
Hawking 41:61 A machine that was powerful enough to accelerate particles to the grand unification energy would have to be as big as the Solar System-and would be unlikely to be funded in the present economic climate.
Hippocrates 14:5 Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance.
Galileo 12:16 It is surely harmful to souls to make it a heresy to believe what is proved
Carlyle 2:2 It is a mathematical fact that the casting of this pebble from my hand alters the centre of gravity of the universe.
Fermi 1:1 The weak nuclear force does not change over time.
Oliver Heaviside 62:3 Shall I refuse my dinner because I do not fully understand the process of digestion?
C. P. Snow 5:3 Innocence about Science is the worst crime today.
Paul Valéry 3:6 One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall.
A.C. Doyle 14:8 It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts.
Clark 19:17 Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Roddenberry 68:12 We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.
deGràsse Tyson 1:1 God is an ever receeding pocket of scientific ignorance
Most of these guys are dead I didn't see any come back from the dead, did I miss something? I also dont see much that they have created, or that they could stop time or know how to cure the common cold or something small as knowing all the fish by species in our seas. thats right they cannot even cure aids or know what lies beyond our universe or know how elementary particles have mass and we are supposed to think they have all the answers yea ok, now who wears a tin hat.
I like Sagan's saying For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Thats why I know God
They were real at least.
Bob, everything you quoted comes from an ancient story book. There is no proof that ANYTHING in the bible ever happened or any of the characters ever existed. I may as well quote the Harry Potter books to prove a historical point. Can't you see the madness?
Hey dog have had your head in the sand have you? keep up on the facts you may find a whole new world out there.
Primwonk, maybe you should check your history, for there was a David, a Solomon, and a Cyrus the governor, and an Alexander, who was poisoned by Ptolemy, no one was king, this too was a wrong translation inserted by the enemy of YHWH, in Exodus 17v14-16, and in Psalm 83, for YHWH is the only true King, Malachi 1v14.
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Have you ever wondered about your life maybe there are things that caused you pain like parents that didn't really care or family situations that aren't the best or life is just not turning out like you thought it would. The importance of the knowing and finding God cannot be made unimportant. Maybe you've always wondered who God is or why do you want to know Him or you keep getting reminded that there is a God. This is not by accident the world can pass it off but its God tugging at your heart to know Him and come to Him. Look at the first line, those that God called He gives the ability to be sons of God, and its not by any will of man or flesh or blood but by His will. In this we can call Him Abba Father something that no one else can. We have a inheritance in Him and we are changed and powerful when we start to walk in what He has for us. The bible say we have a inheritance but we need to lay claim to it. We do that by listening and instruction and walking in the paths that He has already set for us. So if you are down have accepted the Lord and are born again you are Gods child, You are not accident in birth but here for a purpose and God knows you personally. If you dont know the Lord and Hes calling then there is no better time to start then now. Start walking in the authority that He has setup for you find out what He really has for you. Its awesome, dont let anyone come between you and God it is a relationship and personal if its not what you have then run to Him cling to Him and find out what your Father has for you, You wont be disappointed.
Don't let anyone else tell you what god is.
If your god knows me personally I need to move to a better neighbourhood where they keep the riffraff out.
Have you ever wondered about your life maybe there are things that caused you pain like parents that didn't really care or family situations that aren't the best or life is just not turning out like you thought it would. The importance of the knowing and finding God cannot be made unimportant.
Please explain what the second statement has to do with the first question. Are you implying that knowing and finding god will make those things not hurt? So people who believe as you do know no emotional pain or mental turmoil?
Maybe you've always wondered who God is or why do you want to know Him or you keep getting reminded that there is a God. This is not by accident the world can pass it off but its God tugging at your heart to know Him and come to Him.
In my experience it is more a matter of putting myself in a place where people feel it is their duty to convert me.
Look at the first line, those that God called He gives the ability to be sons of God, and its not by any will of man or flesh or blood but by His will. In this we can call Him Abba Father something that no one else can. We have a inheritance in Him and we are changed and powerful when we start to walk in what He has for us.
Yet, when I believed as you do I was a miserable, hateful, horrible human being. What good is an eternity when you can't even stand yourself in the present?
The bible say we have a inheritance but we need to lay claim to it. We do that by listening and instruction and walking in the paths that He has already set for us. So if you are down have accepted the Lord and are born again you are Gods child, You are not accident in birth but here for a purpose and God knows you personally. If you dont know the Lord and Hes calling then there is no better time to start then now. Start walking in the authority that He has setup for you find out what He really has for you. Its awesome, dont let anyone come between you and God it is a relationship and personal if its not what you have then run to Him cling to Him and find out what your Father has for you, You wont be disappointed.
Actually, I was disappointed. As I said, I was a horrible person. I walked away and found myself, found a way to love myself...discovered that I was not some vile, wretched thing impossible to forgive.
I changed. I became a person capable of love and understanding, of compassion. I could care less what reward awaits me when this life is over, if it means I must live this life as THAT person. I much prefer the person I am today.
Weightwords sorry you had that experience, When I first came to the Lord and was in a church they threw me out, The very place I went to learn about the Lord and be welcomed cast me out. One thing I did know I had been ridiculed before and knew that I wasn't going to give up on the Lord. They were not bad people just not what the Bible calls for Christian behavior. When you are different you have 2 choices listen to man or to God. God never rejected me He Baptized me in the Holy Spirit and provided for me. Im sorry to say that man looks at people so much different than God. King David was a great example he was not picked by his own father for the selection to become king just all his other brothers. They even said basically stupid kid leave him and he was picked to be king. I knew these stories so my faith wasn't in people but God to do what He said He would do. I was faithful and even though it hurt forgave anyone that rejected me and allowed the Lord to deal with them. I am not altruistic either I just wanted the blessings of the Lord more than to hold the scorn of man. I could have listened to people and walked away from God but I absolutely knew He was a rewarder and hadn't rejected me. As long as I knew that nothing else really mattered. Let me say something about sin, yes its supposed to be out of your life but its not supposed to be the focus of your life. God will never reject you if you are taking steps to change spend time with Him and have a sincere heart. I was saved just as I was and He and I worked on the issues in my life. If I had let what people told me I would never have continued with Him, because they just wanted me to focus on removing the sin from my life, which I couldn't do, wanted to just couldn't do. As I walked with Him by the power of His Spirit slowly the old nature started to fade away as I kept walking and focusing on Him not the sin. I knew it was there but it was not the focus. If you want to be down and discouraged focus on your problems not the one who will help. Today I walk without the hindrances of the past thanks be to God. I know what He can do for me and I am not better or worse than anyone else. If you reject God thats your choice but when someone has been more faithful to me than anyone in my life and I know He will do the same for anyone else why wouldn't I want to share that. He has provided every need and healed many hurts in me and is a closer friend than anyone I have ever known. Im sorry for the barriers people come against in knowing Him that turn them away.
Bob, I think you missed the point of my comment.
Nothing in my comment had anything to do with other people. I did not leave Christianity due to the way others treated me. I left Christianity because I no longer believed the mythology and because I did not like the person I was. Neither reason is the fault of another person.
I prayed fervently for well over a year, hours at a time, for my doubt to be lifted, for my heart to be restored. In the end, my prayers were answered with more questions, more doubt and a resounding silence.
I am not trying to be smart but. I understand if those prayers yielded questions and not to many answers. Faith is a active thing faith in a vacuum is nothing, love in a vacuum is nothing unless you do some change move forward based on faith there will be nothing. You can love someone but unless you act on that love its nothing. I personally believe the questions were the answers to the prayers. It starts with a question and action coupled with faith produces results. When we hear God we need to proceed with what He said to us, but sometimes doubt will come in and stop us from doing what we need to do. When that happens the results that the Lord wanted will not come about. Do it to many times and the Lord stops talking and your back to nothing.
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
God does remove hurt from Christians, we also have hope and love and a Father that never leaves us. Man works from the outside in God works from the inside out. Don't put off what God tells you to do it is for your own good.
so if God tells you to pass around your daughter to be used by the congregation to fulfill there need that's for your and her own good
O No Sam is bored with the other CNN blogs and has now returned to this one......this sucks
Sam that would only be your daughter
I am not trying to be smart but. I understand if those prayers yielded questions and not to many answers. Faith is a active thing faith in a vacuum is nothing, love in a vacuum is nothing unless you do some change move forward based on faith there will be nothing.
I did change something. I left the faith that had abandoned me,
You can love someone but unless you act on that love its nothing.
What about when you can not love? What then? I know that while I was Christian I did not understand love. How could I love some vile sinner that even the god who made him could not love? What then?
I personally believe the questions were the answers to the prayers. It starts with a question and action coupled with faith produces results. When we hear God we need to proceed with what He said to us, but sometimes doubt will come in and stop us from doing what we need to do.
And if I told you that what I heard from what I knew of God was instruction to walk away?
When that happens the results that the Lord wanted will not come about. Do it to many times and the Lord stops talking and your back to nothing.
There comes a time, when a person must decide what is good and right for them...and even when that decision requires that they walk away from everything they know, from everything they love, the only thing that remains is to leave or perish.
I firmly believe that had I remained within the toxic brand of Christianity I found myself in, I would be dead today. Thankfully, I was able to get free of it, and find a faith that taught me a lot about love, and about being a better human being.
"But to the wicked person, God says: “What right have you to recite my laws
or take my covenant on your lips? You hate my instruction and cast my words behind you."
“Consider this, you who forget God, or I will tear you to pieces, with no one to rescue you..."
Psa 50:16 But to the wicked God says, "What right have you to tell of My statutes And to take My covenant in your mouth?
Psa 50:17 "For you hate discipline, And you cast My words behind you.
Psa 50:18 "When you see a thief, you are pleased with him, And you associate with adulterers.
Psa 50:19 "You let your mouth loose in evil And your tongue frames deceit.
Psa 50:20 "You sit and speak against your brother; You slander your own mother's son.
Psa 50:21 "These things you have done and I kept silence; You thought that I was just like you; I will reprove you and state the case in order before your eyes.
Psa 50:22 "Now consider this, you who forget God, Or I will tear you in pieces, and there will be none to deliver.
Psa 50:23 "He who offers a sacrifice of thanksgiving honors Me; And to him who orders his way aright I shall show the salvation of God."
Yes God does fight for us so what do we have to fear?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
Joh 1:5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Joh 1:6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
Joh 1:9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"
Joh 1:16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
Joh 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
I thought the bird is the word. So then . . . all birds are god!
Bob knows all the words – but NONE of that has translated into being a good Christian. Just because I go stand in my garage, that doesn't make me a car.
Bob, why are you quoting phrases from a story book. Do you think that somehow gives your argument some validity?
All this information is pales in comparison to knowing Jesus, ask Him into your life today. Seek and you will find, if you search with all your heart. For God rewards those that diligently seek Him.
No ty. I need to keep my soul.
yep, live your life according to 2,000 year old tales. good idea.
In approximately 700 B.C. the prophet Micah named the tiny village of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel's Messiah Micah 5:2. The fulfillment of this prophecy in the birth of Christ is one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history.
Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to the 5th power
If you look at the Antiquities of the Jews,, there are numerous references to Jesus,,, Wars of the Jews also talks about Jesus. So how many references do you need? This is not all just the easiest books to reference Jesus that are not the Bible or Torah.
How did you establish that probability?
Christian beliefs are based on nothing more than a collection of Bronze and Iron Age Middle Eastern mythology, much of it discredited, that was cobbled together into a book called the “Bible” by people we know virtually nothing about, before the Dark Ages.
The stories of Christianity are not even original. They are borrowed directly from earlier mythology from the middle East. Genesis and Exodus, for example, are clearly based on earlier Babylonian myths such as The Epic of
Gilgamesh, and the Jesus story itself is straight from the stories about Apollonius of Tyana, Horus and Dionysus (including virgin birth, the three wise men, the star in the East, birth at the Winter solstice, a baptism by another prophet, turning water into wine, crucifixion and rising from the dead).
Dances with dog here is not to bright. You should invest in some higher end dog food. How does one even begin to explain history to someone who makes dumb comments like yours. The bible is a book of history – you do not have to believe that Jesus is God – but many of the events, kings, and kingdoms are factual – duh!!!!!!
Hey spoc? You missed the point. Accurate geology and names does not change the fact that a lot of the supernatural portions of the bible are cribbed from older mythologies.
Sorry Talluhla read his first sentence.....he does not clarify, as many do not on this blog. Anyone who says, "I do not believe in the bible"....in some ways is making a stupid comment
The Hebrew word Jesus/Joshua means 'Jehovah is salvation OR Savior. . Christ the anointed one is a translation of the Hebrew the Messiah.. Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion (Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). Again, historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment: Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, and his extraordinarily quick death eliminated the need for the usual breaking of bones. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead....Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 TO The 13th power.
Bob, first off let me help you with the words messiah, and anointed, they both mean anointed that is all, and even a jack ass was anointed in Numbers 22 vs.28 to speak to Balaam from YHWH. Then what part of the scripture in Isaiah 49v26, and Isaiah 60v16, and Isaiah 43v11, of YHWH being the only savior, and redeemer are you missing here? So why would He then say that someone else is the savior? Our strong one does not give His glory to no one remember Isaiah 42v8,9. Next there is no mentioning in the book of remembrance, in Malachi 3v16, renamed the OT, anywhere about a crucifix, its a made up myth. Then in Psalms 22, this was written by David, and if one would look into a strong concordance bible dictionary, they'd find that the word 'pierce' means bound, or wound, and in I Samuel 21 vs. 10-15, and I Samuel 22 vs. 1,2, is describing when David was captured, and bounded both his hands, and feet, and he escaped by playing a mad man. In Zechariah 12 vs. 10, this is YHWH Himself speaking to the house of David, qand of Jerusalem about what He will do to all those nations who pierced Him, and who were against Jerusalem. If you start at the first verse in Zech. 12, you will notice that YHWH is talking, and in verse 10 He, YHWH says, 'I' and 'me' whom they pierced, not jc. Now that many are awaking to the true name of the Creator YHWH, the christians have been trying to say that jesus is joshua, which the name is Yoshosua. Then the scriptures in Gen. 35 vs. 19, there is no mention of the city Judaea there from verses Gen. 35 vs.1-29, not at all, or maybe it is in these newest apocrypha books, but not in the King james version 16. As I have said much is to be discerned in this book, for it has been tampered with by the enemies in Exodus 17 vs. 14-16 as prophesied it would from generation to generation, the spiritual war until this day.
Jesus Christ is YHWH
Gen 35:19 So Rachel died and was buried on the way to Ephrath (that is, Bethlehem). Micah 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, But though Jerusalem should be besieged and taken, and the land of Judea laid waste, yet, before all this should be, the Messiah should be born in Bethlehem, of which this is a prophecy, as is evident from Mat_2:4; the place is called by both the names it went by, to point it out the more distinctly, and with the greater certainty, Gen_35:19; the former signifies "the house of bread", and a proper place for Christ to be born in, who is the bread of life; and it has the name of the latter from its fruitfulness, being a place of pasture, and as we find it was at the time of our Lord's birth; for near it shepherds were then watching over their flocks; and it is here added, to distinguish it from another Bethlehem in the tribe of Zebulun, Jos_19:15; from which tribe the Messiah was not to come, but from the tribe of Judah; and in which this Bethlehem was, and therefore called, by Matthew, Bethlehem in the land of Judah; as it appears this was, from Rth_1:1; and from the Septuagint version of Jos_15:60, where, as Jerom observes, it was added by the Greek interpreters, or erased out of the Hebrew text by the wickedness of the Jews: the former seems most correct;
Any other questions????
Jesus of Nazareth is YHWH
Bob, georgia, and ttwp, nowhere in the so called OT, (the obvious truth book), and truly was named by YHWH, 'the book of remembrance' in Malachi 3v16, does it say jesus, nor does it tell of his story, and in all of those scriptures in the chapters that are in Isaiah 40, 41, 42, 43, and 44, are speaking of the servant, the elect, from the 'seed' of David, as the future prophecy in Jeremiah 23 vs.1-8, and Jeremiah 33 vs.14-21 of the righteous BRANCH, named 'The Lord (YHWH) Our Righteousness', and not just one person here, and again there is no name of jc here either, and this is taught to us, in Jeremiah 33 vs.22 that there will be a great number of David's seed to be on the throne. Besides the last time I read over in the NT (not true book), in mathew it reads jc, was not conceived by a seed. And in Micah 5 vs. 1,2, this servant will be born in Ephratah Bethlehem, but in mathew 2 vs.1,2, it says that jesus is born in judaea bethlehem, this is Edom, Idumea the maccabees, the jews, now this is your anti-christ sir, 'idols' as was prophesied in the book of Daniel, by Daniel from YHWH in Daniel 11 vs. 39, and by Moses in Deut. 32v17, of the new generations that will worship in the latter days;and they are not known by the forefathers of the Hebrew Israelites, which are YHWHs chosen people are from. Then if you notice in all five of the books of Moses, the chosen people are called Hebrews, not jews as proven that the Creator YHWH is the Strong One of the Hebrews in Exodus 3 vs. 18. In later books the the chosen are translated to 'jews' but the chosen people the son, and firstborn is called 'Israel" of YHWHs, as taught by YHWH in Exodus 4 vs. 22, and there cannot be two firstborn sons people. One must discern the book as taught by the prophet Micah 7, preferably vs. 5.
Any response I could give you would not understand, if you cant discern the Bible how is my explanation going to clear things up, therefore I will not waste my time. You are so far off and deceived. that I say again get behind me satan! you are from your father, who is the father of all lies, in him there is no truth and not even able to tell the truth.The Lord rebuke you.
Mat 1:1 The record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham:
Mat 1:2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers.
Mat 1:3 Judah was the father of Perez and Zerah by Tamar, Perez was the father of Hezron, and Hezron the father of Ram.
Mat 1:4 Ram was the father of Amminadab, Amminadab the father of Nahshon, and Nahshon the father of Salmon.
Mat 1:5 Salmon was the father of Boaz by Rahab, Boaz was the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse.
Mat 1:6 Jesse was the father of David the king. David was the father of Solomon by Bathsheba who had been the wife of Uriah.
Mat 1:7 Solomon was the father of Rehoboam, Rehoboam the father of Abijah, and Abijah the father of Asa.
Mat 1:8 Asa was the father of Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat the father of Joram, and Joram the father of Uzziah.
Mat 1:9 Uzziah was the father of Jotham, Jotham the father of Ahaz, and Ahaz the father of Hezekiah.
Mat 1:10 Hezekiah was the father of Manasseh, Manasseh the father of Amon, and Amon the father of Josiah.
Mat 1:11 Josiah became the father of Jeconiah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.
Mat 1:12 After the deportation to Babylon: Jeconiah became the father of Shealtiel, and Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel.
Mat 1:13 Zerubbabel was the father of Abihud, Abihud the father of Eliakim, and Eliakim the father of Azor.
Mat 1:14 Azor was the father of Zadok, Zadok the father of Achim, and Achim the father of Eliud.
Mat 1:15 Eliud was the father of Eleazar, Eleazar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob.
Mat 1:16 Jacob was the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, by whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah.
Mat 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; from David to the deportation to Babylon, fourteen generations; and from the deportation to Babylon to the Messiah, fourteen generations.
Wow painful Lorraine, you don't know what you are talking about
The Lord Jesus is YHWH
Lorraine Voss: Please ask God to open your heart and understanding. Jesus is God and the exact image and representation of the invisible Father. This is why Jesus said I and the Father are one. Those without the Holy Spirit can't understand this.
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
You appear to be zealous for God, but your zeal is not based on knowledge. Since you do not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish your own, you do not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
To evil Bob
The scriptures you picked were really interesting in the fact that they dealt with evil spirits and in one a real person leading Gods people astray and doing evil acts and worshiping other gods, just like today. The last one you quoted was from Revelation and God was talking about Jezebel a person but also a spirit this is the first part of that scripture ,You are permitting that woman—that Jezebel who calls herself a prophet—to lead My servants astray. She teaches them to commit physical sin and to eat food offered to idols. Numbers 31 was also a interesting pick since it is also about worship and following and teaching to follow other gods, here is that explanation These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the Lord's people. in Deuteronomy the same story,he false prophets or visionaries who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who redeemed you from slavery and brought you out of the land of Egypt. Since they try to lead you astray from the way the LORD your God commanded you to live, you must put them to death.
In all these cases God who brought the children of Israel out of Egypt and provided for them did miracles and gave them the law what not to do. Actually these were all before Christians times and were all Jewish also. In case you didn't know it is the same God different covenants.The people who God was dealing with like now were the ones that had false teachings and were actually teaching others to worship other gods. He had done many miracles for the children of Israel by this time and warned them not to marry their enemies but here were some that didn't listen. This was their punishment and the stopping of the evil both spiritual and people and the cleansing of Israel. This God doesn't do today but will deal with all when the judgement comes. As it was in those days the perverse spirits in people caused detestable acts. The gay community has had its share of detestable acts. They were also false teachers and were leading Gods people astray and teaching like the gay agenda today that its ok to do these things. Some will fall some will escape the snare of satan and live. But its never a good thing to lead Gods people astray with false teachings.
Since there's so much bible quote dumping going in here, let's take a look at some of the typical nasty stuff that the evil Christian sky fairy is demanding in there:
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
Revelations 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement. Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
But to the wicked, God says: “What right have you to recite my laws or take my covenant on your lips? You hate my instruction and cast my
words behind you.
But I will rebuke you and accuse you to your face. “Consider this, you who forget God, or I will tear you to pieces, with none to rescue: He who sacrifices thank offerings honors me, and he prepares the way so that I may show him the salvation of God. Psalm 50:16-17,21-23
Seek God's salvation...Jesus Christ.
SO you are saying god says worship me and accept me or I will torture you. If that is the case your god is a petty tyrant unworthy of worship by crushed worm gunk/.
There is a reference to Jesus in every book of the old testament happy hunting
And speaking of the old and new testaments, let's have a look at the really down and dirty stuff that the nasty Christian sky fairy is asking his sheeple to do in the Christian book of nasty AKA the bible:
In the so called OT for there is nothing old about this book, it reads the past, present, and the future prophesies, this book is truly named the book of remembrance in Malachi 3v16, I only see references to the seed of David, there is no mentioning of the name jesus, not anywhere in the book, only of the seed David, the servant, the elect, no one has been named, only in Jeremiah 23 vs. 1-8, and Jeremiah 33v14-21, future, and in progress now prophesies, where YHWH names His movement, and the Branch all are The Lord (YHWH) Our Righteousness. If one read in Isaiah 40 vs.13, YHWH tells us of this servant who will work for Him, and that YHWH is who taught him, and counseled, and instructed him, he is the arm of YHWH, then you go to Isaiah 40 vs.18, and 25, 28, of who YHWH is, and that we are not to compare Him to no one, for in Isaiah 40vs.22, YHWH says He is who sits on the circle of the earth. The servant is not to get the praise only YHWH, and this is one of the reasons why we are in the wrath of His anger unto this day. For He is a jealous Strong One, and He has told us this in Isaiah 42vs.8, but we keep on doing it anyway being either stiff necked, or mislead by the shepherds, priest, elders, popes, pastors. Jeremiah 25vs.31-38, and Jeremiah 30 vs.24.
Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.
Isa 42:2 "He will not cry out or raise His voice, Nor make His voice heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 "A bruised reed He will not break And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice.
Isa 42:4 "He will not be disheartened or crushed Until He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law."
Isa 42:5 Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on it And spirit to those who walk in it,
Isa 42:6 "I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations,
Isa 42:7 To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon And those who dwell in darkness from the prison.
Isa 42:8 "I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.
Isa 42:9 "Behold, the former things have come to pass, Now I declare new things; Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you."
Jesus the servant in the old Testament is portrayed here. There is so much more and if you say that there is no Jesus in the Old Testament then you have just called the Torah a lie, for the Jews look for a Saviour and it is that description that Jesus fills. So she is effectively saying there is no Messiah either. Totally satan totally a lie, totally without hope, totally a spirit of death ,also.
If the old testament is the story of the Jewish people, and the prophecy is for the Jewish Messiah, and the Jewish reject the idea that Jesus fulfilled this prophecy, why should any of us believe that he is, in fact, their Messiah?
weight first He IS the Christian Savior and the Jewish Messiah if you dont want to believe then thats up to you . The Bible says there is going to be a veil for a time whats your excuse. Your not interested in learning but distorting and lying. There are to many proofs to go through to teach someone that is only interested in chaos.
first He IS the Christian Savior and the Jewish Messiah if you dont want to believe then thats up to you.
If he is the Jewish Messiah, why do the Jews say he isn't? According to the Jews, he did not fulfill all of the prophecies required to be the Messiah. How do you explain that?
The Bible says there is going to be a veil for a time whats your excuse.
I'm going to need you to clarify this, as I did not understand it. The bible is going to be a veil? Does this mean it is purposely obtuse? And, my excuse for what exactly?
Your not interested in learning but distorting and lying.
You have no idea what I'm interested in Bob, nor have I distorted or lied. Please do not denigrate me without cause. I am only seeking to find understanding and interested in conversation. Is that not what we are doing here?
There are to many proofs to go through to teach someone that is only interested in chaos.
Someone who desires chaos will not sit well for research and study. I have no interest in chaos, only equality and understanding. I have spent a good deal of my life studying religion, and man's desire for faith. I was a Christian for many years, I studied and prayed, I ministered to others, led bible studies.
I'm not sure what "proofs" you allude to, Bob. What I found in my study showed me that the bible is not a doc.ument to base my life on.
your own words give you up that you have no learning and if you have studied the Torah or Christianity it was a waste of time and a serious affair teaching others when you yourself dont understand. The simple fact of why the Jews dont believe He is the Messiah and why the Christians do is basic teaching. Like really basic. I dont teach the Bible for equality I teach the Bible for those that want to find a path to salvation. If you were a Christian then what was you faith based on? You said you already found the Bible not a book to base your life on sorry about that and I mean it sincerely. I found it to be a book I can base my life on but not only because of the book but who is the author. I guess you really dont get it, its not religion I could have made my own god like so many do, its about a relationship. It is the greatest love story ever written. It is life for now and eternity. Buddha would be a good one for you, we know that Mohammad is out of the question maybe Confucius or any number of other men or gods.I am not being unsympathetic but this forum is not the one to teach in pick up a Bible start to read and see where it takes you. Ill give you this find out why Jesus talked in parables.
Bob, I didn't ask for you to teach me anything. I asked to converse...to talk about the why and the how of belief, not just have you reiterate to me what you believe.
your own words give you up that you have no learning and if you have studied the Torah or Christianity it was a waste of time and a serious affair teaching others when you yourself dont understand.
My words are simply a tool to express myself and what I know, what I desire to know, what I believe and why. I've barely begun talking to you, so I'm not sure how much of my education you are in a position to judge. I don't consider any time spent learning to be a waste of time.
The simple fact of why the Jews dont believe He is the Messiah and why the Christians do is basic teaching. Like really basic.
If it is so simple, answer the question. I get a different answer from Christians when I ask this, so I am genuinely curious what you believe the reason to be.
I dont teach the Bible for equality I teach the Bible for those that want to find a path to salvation.
Nor would I expect you to teach the bible for equality. The bible doesn't teach equality. In fact it teaches the very opposite of equality. And, as the saying goes, not all who wander are lost. In other words, not all who do not believe as you do are in need of salvation.
If you were a Christian then what was you faith based on?
At the time, it was based on the bible, on what I was taught and what I felt inside me. As I grew in knowledge and understanding, I found my faith did not grow with me...and there came I time when what I learned about the history of Christianity, about the history of the world that the disagreed with the bible's telling of it, about the history of the bible itself, that my faith could no longer be put in those things.
You said you already found the Bible not a book to base your life on sorry about that and I mean it sincerely. I found it to be a book I can base my life on but not only because of the book but who is the author.
I have re-written my response to this over and over, but can not find what word the filter is objecting to. One last try.
The bible, is a book of stories about the faith and mythology of a particular set of people who lived in a particular place at a particular time. It is not historically accurate, not when taken as a whole anyway. The words come from men who were capturing the story of their people, much the same as the gathered myths of Greek or Roman culture.
If the overall story of the bible is meant to be the greatest love story ever told, it fails on many levels. As a love story it is less functional than Twilight even was.
Please do not mistake my questions and desire to engage in conversation as a desire to convert. I have a faith that I am very happy with.
As to the bible, I've studied it long and hard, my friend. I know it better than most. I simply came to different co.nclusions than you.
And while we're dumping bible quotes, let's look at the really nasty demands that Christian god makes in that nasty, evil book of myths:
Oh Nasty Bob gonna do a bible study – gather round ya'll!!!! What a joke!!! You trying sooo hard to interpret scripture – but ya just don't get it Bobby!!! The bitter, angry way that you address God and talk about the bible – tells me, you have had some very unpleasant experiences with religion – right? Bob it was the religious folk that killed Jesus......Jesus was looking for disciples – not spectators. Jesus is love – but as someone else wrote – He does not have to love all that we do on this earth. I really hope you work out your anger with God......remember the guy on Forrest Gump..?
1Jn 4:5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.
1Jn 4:6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
1Jn 4:8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
1Jn 4:9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.
1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Let me give all a warning Loraine says there is no Jesus and says in the old testament there is no talk of Jesus This is truly the spirit of the anti christ anything shes says will be a lie and is totally deceived be prepared!!!!!!! She makes John look good.
She is clearly very confused .....ahhhh!!!!!!! Lorraine – maybe do some studying and get some understanding before trying to teach others
Many people should realize, that they should get off the 'good ship jesus' look it up, and learn that the only savior, and redeemer is YHWH in Isaiah 49 vs. 26, and Isaiah 60 vs. 16. And, in Isaiah 44v22, our sins have been forgotten, and all the Creator YHWH wants us to do is to return to HIM, In Malachi 3v7, to His law of the 10 commandments, the sabbath, and the pass over, for YHWH didn't change any of His law for us in Malachi 3v6, so that we won't be mislead.
Your placing yourself under the law which brings death, but faith in Christ through God's grace brings life. Please read the Book of Romans and the Book of Hebrews. Jesus is our mediator and great High Priest. He is the exact image and represenation of the Father...meaning Jesus is God in the flesh. God Bless.
So according to you we should not believe God the way He made for salvation and believe you. That is the spirit of the Antichrist plain and simple. Get behind me satan . Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the father except through me. This is the garbage that the gay community puts out there and I ask the question they are not harmful? Anyone who deliberately subverts the Word of God for their own purposes and teaches others to do the same will have a special place in the lake of fire.
Gee Bob, you have your version of god – it is not the only one for sure. The world is made up of a lot of different people with different beliefs. Your beliefs do not apply to people who do not follow the same beliefs. This should be totally obvious.
Just because people are not the same as you does not mean they are wrong or evil or anything else other than that they are different. Your only dislike of the gays is becuase of your religion. So be it that's you and your personal beliefs. Other people believe differently and have at least as much validity as you do.
On a more personal note I think of your version of god as a school yard bully and he sucks. He is unworth of worship by a crushed worm. It's ok if you like him thats your personal belief and all yours.
Lorraine – what faith do you belong to??? You have everything tossed around
repent and believe in the Gospel – ALL OF IT
Why would I want to do such a thing ?
I agree with JWT...repent of what?
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