home
RSS
My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage
The author backs same-sex marriage because of his faith, not in spite of it.
May 19th, 2012
02:00 AM ET

My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage

Editor's Note: Mark Osler is a Professor of Law at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

By Mark Osler, Special to CNN

I am a Christian, and I am in favor of gay marriage. The reason I am for gay marriage is because of my faith.

What I see in the Bible’s accounts of Jesus and his followers is an insistence that we don’t have the moral authority to deny others the blessing of holy institutions like baptism, communion, and marriage. God, through the Holy Spirit, infuses those moments with life, and it is not ours to either give or deny to others.

A clear instruction on this comes from Simon Peter, the “rock” on whom the church is built. Peter is a captivating figure in the Christian story. Jesus plucks him out of a fishing boat to become a disciple, and time and again he represents us all in learning at the feet of Christ.

During their time together, Peter is often naïve and clueless – he is a follower, constantly learning.

After Jesus is crucified, though, a different Peter emerges, one who is forceful and bold. This is the Peter we see in the Acts of the Apostles, during a fevered debate over whether or not Gentiles should be baptized. Peter was harshly criticized for even eating a meal with those who were uncircumcised; that is, those who did not follow the commands of the Old Testament.

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

Peter, though, is strong in confronting those who would deny the sacrament of baptism to the Gentiles, and argues for an acceptance of believers who do not follow the circumcision rules of Leviticus (which is also where we find a condemnation of homosexuality).

His challenge is stark and stunning: Before ordering that the Gentiles be baptized Peter asks “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

None of us, Peter says, has the moral authority to deny baptism to those who seek it, even if they do not follow the ancient laws. It is the flooding love of the Holy Spirit, which fell over that entire crowd, sinners and saints alike, that directs otherwise.

My Take: Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality

It is not our place, it seems, to sort out who should be denied a bond with God and the Holy Spirit of the kind that we find through baptism, communion, and marriage. The water will flow where it will.

Intriguingly, this rule will apply whether we see homosexuality as a sin or not. The water is for all of us. We see the same thing at the Last Supper, as Jesus gives the bread and wine to all who are there—even to Peter, who Jesus said would deny him, and to Judas, who would betray him.

The question before us now is not whether homosexuality is a sin, but whether being gay should be a bar to baptism or communion or marriage.

Your Take: Rethinking the Bible on homosexuality

The answer is in the Bible. Peter and Jesus offer a strikingly inclusive form of love and engagement. They hold out the symbols of Gods’ love to all. How arrogant that we think it is ours to parse out stingily!

I worship at St. Stephens, an Episcopal church in Edina, Minnesota. There is a river that flows around the back and side of that church with a delightful name: Minnehaha Creek. That is where we do baptisms.

The Rector stands in the creek in his robes, the cool water coursing by his feet, and takes an infant into his arms and baptizes her with that same cool water. The congregation sits on the grassy bank and watches, a gentle army.

Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter

At the bottom of the creek, in exactly that spot, is a floor of smooth pebbles. The water rushing by has rubbed off the rough edges, bit by bit, day by day. The pebbles have been transformed by that water into something new.

I suppose that, as Peter put it, someone could try to withhold the waters of baptism there. They could try to stop the river, to keep the water from some of the stones, like a child in the gutter building a barrier against the stream.

It won’t last, though. I would say this to those who would withhold the water of baptism, the joy of worship, or the bonds of marriage: You are less strong than the water, which will flow around you, find its path, and gently erode each wall you try to erect.

The redeeming power of that creek, and of the Holy Spirit, is relentless, making us all into something better and new.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Mark Osler.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Christianity • Episcopal • Gay marriage • Opinion

soundoff (15,115 Responses)
  1. John

    Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable..

    Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.

    There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.

    Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.

    Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?

    Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).

    That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex

    June 28, 2012 at 3:54 pm |
    • Relic

      This cut and paste is a special gift from Tom Tom. Bishop Frankenstein and his mad rantings – how special

      June 28, 2012 at 4:11 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "This cut and paste is a special gift from Tom Tom. Bishop Frankenstein and his mad rantings – how special"

      You're the one ranting – DUH!

      June 28, 2012 at 6:20 pm |
  2. Bob

    I could get used to this cut and paste thing. Actually I like the post about saul/paul even the Christians were afraid of him at first what a life change since he met the master.

    June 28, 2012 at 3:47 pm |
    • YeahRight

      What a hypocrite. LMAO! Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      June 28, 2012 at 3:57 pm |
    • Relic

      Hurray – it does not have to be cured!! They are exactly right. It cannot be cured because it is a chosen lifestyle....glad we are all in agreement

      June 28, 2012 at 4:18 pm |
    • JWT

      Relic – indeed a relic from the far dark past.

      June 28, 2012 at 5:09 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "It cannot be cured because it is a chosen lifestyle....glad we are all in agreement"

      Keep showing you're clueless about this subject, the hundreds of thousands of experts have shown it's not a choice. Duh!

      June 28, 2012 at 6:21 pm |
    • relic

      Give me one drop of scientific proof right now!!!

      June 28, 2012 at 6:44 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Give me one drop of scientific proof right now!!!"

      Obviously you lack reading comprehension skills it's been posted on here several time, keep proving how clueless you are. LOL!

      July 2, 2012 at 10:38 am |
  3. Bob

    John also says that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was no hospitality this is totally bogus, in fact their sin was the very same thing we see today that's why he cant see clearly that they were sinners before the Lord exceedingly, guilty of the most notorious crimes, and addicted to the most scandalous and unnatural lusts that can be thought of; and these they committed openly and publicly in the sight of God, in the most daring and impudent manner, and in defiance of him, without any fear or shame. The Targum of Jonathan reckons up many of their sins, as defrauding of one another in their substance, sinning in their bodies, unclean copulation, shedding of innocent blood, worshiping of idols, and rebelling against the name of the Lord. Isaiah 3 verse 9. it will reveal the truth to you.
    John calls Paul prejudice and not scientific but lets look into this real man of God born in Tarsus, Paul was raised in Jerusalem at the feet of Gamaliel a leading authority in the Sanhedrin in the mid 1st century AD Gamaliel once gave some advice to the Sanhedrin in Acts to refrain from slaying the disciples of Jesus. Paul or Saul same person was a Roman citizen a Pharisee of pharisees and he prosecuted Christians until he had a encounter with Jesus. He was educated in the finest religious traditions and the Sanhedrin was the assembly of twenty-three judges appointed in every city in the Biblical Land of Israel. He also had a miraculous encounter with Jesus that changed his life. This is the man that John is calling prejudice and unscientific. Fourteen epistles in the New Testament are traditionally attributed to Paul. His authorship of seven of the fourteen is questioned by modern scholars. Augustine of Hippo developed Paul's idea that salvation is based on faith and not "works of the law".Martin Luther's interpretation of Paul's writings heavily influenced Luther's doctrine of sola fide.So John who is into credentials is not respecting the credentials of Saint John.With Paul's upbringing and teachings he would not even think it was ok to be gay and might be the one to kill you if you were. he did kill many Christians.Saying that paul would not approve of gay behavior is a drastic understatement. He also was spiritually apprised and had received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and was anointed a Apostle by Jesus. Paul understood from God and Jesus the meaning of relations it went far beyond the physical side and when you have relations with someone you are joining yourself with that person. This scripture explains it.

    June 28, 2012 at 3:44 pm |
    • YeahRight

      LMAO – you are doing the very thing you were criticizing others about. Thanks for showing what a clueless hypocrite you are.

      Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      June 28, 2012 at 3:55 pm |
  4. James

    "does not represent Christians in any way."

    The scriptures actually say nothing about homosexuality as a psychosexual orientation. Our understandings of sexual orientation are distinctly modern ones that were not present in the minds of Scripture writers. A few passages of Scripture (seven at the most) object to certain types of same-sex expressions or acts. The particular acts in question, however, are sexual expressions which are exploitative, oppressive, commercialized, or offensive to ancient purity rituals. There is no Scriptural guidance for same-sex relationships which are loving and mutually respecting. Guidelines for these relationships should come from the same general Scriptural norms that apply to heterosexual relationships.

    June 28, 2012 at 3:19 pm |
    • Relic

      Per-verse s-ex was not ok then – and it is not ok now. You guys know nothing about these writers or the times they were writing in. Your view point is not accurate

      June 28, 2012 at 4:22 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Per-verse s-ex was not ok then – and it is not ok now. You guys know nothing about these writers or the times they were writing in. Your view point is not accurate"

      That's why you've proven over and over again you know NOTHING about homosexuality. Duh!

      June 28, 2012 at 6:23 pm |
    • relic

      Yeahright....I know as much as I want to – I don't want to know more,... but we are not on even turf....your knowledge of Christianity and the bible is even worse

      June 28, 2012 at 6:43 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Relic says: "I know as much as I want to."

      What you know is as much as your two brain cells can manage, troll. You bozos aren't here for any reason but your own amusement. You have no more interest in the topic than you do in mowing your mom's lawn.

      Please. Get a better persona. Obvious troll is obvious.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:37 pm |
  5. Matthew

    "I LOVE IT SAY SOMETHING THEY DONT LIKE AND ITS BACK TO CUT AND PASTE I "

    Homosexuality is not a sin according to the Bible. Any educated Christian would know that. Scholars who have studied the Bible in context of the times and in relation to other passages have shown those passages (Leviticus, Corinthians, Romans, etc) have nothing to do with homosexuality. These passages often cherry-picked while ignoring the rest of the Bible. The sins theses passages are referring to are idolatry, prostitution, and rape, not homosexuality. That’s why Jesus never mentions it as well. There is nothing immoral, wrong, or sinful about being gay. Jesus, however, clearly states he HATES hypocrites. If you preach goodness, then promote hate and twist the words of the Bible, you are a hypocrite, and will be judged and sent to hell. Homosexuals will not go to hell, hypocrites will. This is very similar to the religious bigots of the past, where they took Bible passages to condone slavery, keep women down, and used Bible passages to claim blacks as curses who should be enslaved by the white man. People used God to claim that blacks marrying whites was unnatural, and not of God's will.

    June 28, 2012 at 2:45 pm |
    • Relic

      Thanks for proving Bob right Mathew, this comment has been posted several times now on this blog. It is still stupid and does not represent Christians in any way. Educated Christians like who....hmmm Billy Graham??

      June 28, 2012 at 2:54 pm |
    • Yeahright

      "Thanks for proving Bob right Mathew, this comment has been posted several times now on this blog. It is still stupid and does not represent Christians in any way. Educated Christians like who....hmmm Billy Graham??"

      Yo moron Bob has been cutting and pasting over and over again too. DUH! By the way there are thousands of gay churches and there are gay clergy so you actually have no clue what you're talking about. DUH!

      June 28, 2012 at 3:16 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Sorry Relic, but fundamentalistts, like Graham, purposefully choose to be ignorant about the science od sèxual orientation. Instead, they choose to believe the writings and musings of nomadic bronze-age shepherds who were so scientifically ignorant they thought women were "unclean" twice as long after birthing a girl than a boy.

      June 28, 2012 at 3:18 pm |
  6. Bob

    I LOVE IT SAY SOMETHING THEY DONT LIKE AND ITS BACK TO CUT AND PASTE I REALLY WONDER IF THERE IS REALLY ANYONE ON THE BOARD MAYBE ONE OR TWO PEOPLE THE REST ARE JUST CUT AND PASTE.

    June 28, 2012 at 2:15 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      First, there is no need to yell.

      Second, perhaps if you would actually address the posts that have been cut and pasted in response to your arguments with something beyond double talk and hiding behind recitation of scripture that means little to those who do not believe, and actually state viable, well thought out arguments to said posts, then the board could move on to more meaningful discussion.

      June 28, 2012 at 2:24 pm |
    • midwest rail

      myweight – good luck with that. Bob is this thread's king of circular logic, double-standard, obfuscation, and deflection.

      June 28, 2012 at 2:30 pm |
    • James

      Exactly Bob!!! My complaint all along!! They also have shown that they cannot distinguish between good and bad behavior in their own group, which several have pointed out. A couple of pages back one of them is defending John Travolta??!! I know there must be gay people with scruples....just not on this blog

      June 28, 2012 at 2:45 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "I know there must be gay people with scruples....just not on this blog"

      LMAO – those that support gay rights on here aren't gay idiot. It just shows you have NO clue what you're talking about. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      June 28, 2012 at 2:50 pm |
    • Relic

      Hurray!!! its not a mental illness anymore!!!

      June 28, 2012 at 2:56 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Relic

      It was never a mental illness.

      June 28, 2012 at 2:59 pm |
    • Yeahright

      "Hurray!!! its not a mental illness anymore!!!"

      Keep showing your stupidity!

      June 28, 2012 at 3:17 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Dim as usual. People are posting the words of authorities on the subject; you know, people who actually KNOW something? You, Bob and your sock puppet James, don't have anything to 'cut and paste' other than the Bible. Everything you've posted is nothing but your opinion, based on nothing factual whatsoever.

      And then, of course, you post lies.

      June 28, 2012 at 5:14 pm |
  7. Janet

    "and being gay is not accepted in righteousness"

    The Biblical condemnation of homosexuality is based on human ignorance, suspicion of those who are different, and an overwhelming concern for ensuring the survival of the people. Since the Bible regards homosexuality as a capital crime, it clearly assumes that homosexuality is a matter of free choice, a deliberate rebellion against God. We have learned from modern science that people do not choose to be gay or straight; hence it is neither logical nor moral to condemn those whose nature it is to be gay or lesbian.

    June 28, 2012 at 1:53 pm |
  8. YeahRight

    "and being gay is not accepted in righteousness"

    In 1993, the National Institute of Health’ Dean Hamer illustrated that homosexuality might be inherited from the mother by her sons through a specific region of the X chromosome (Xq28). Hamer demonstrated this by noting that 33 out of 40 pairs of homosexual brothers whom he studied showed the same variation in the tip of the chromosome.

    – Hamer DH, Hu S, Magnuson VL, Hu N. and Pattatucci AML. A linkage between DNA markers on the X chromosome and male sexual orientation. Science 1993; 261:320-326.

    A June 2006 Canadian study published in the journal, “Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences,” said that nature, instead of nurture, explains the origins of homosexuality. The study’ author, Prof. Anthony F. Bogaert, at Brock University in Ontario, explored the causes behind what is known as the fraternal birth order. The research showed a correlation between the number of biological older brothers a man has and his sexual orientation. Dividing his sample of more than 900 heterosexual and homosexual men into four groups, Bogaert examined the impact of all types of older brothers, including step and adopted siblings, and the amount of time brothers spent together while growing up.His research found that only the number of biological brothers had an impact on sexuality, regardless of whether the boys were raised together.

    – Bogaert, A.F. 2006. Biological versus nonbiological older brothers and men’s sexual orientation. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 103 July 11 2006.

    A study released in May 2006 by Swedish scientists demonstrates that biology plays a key role in determining a person’ sexuality. The research shows that the portion of the brain that helps regulate sexuality — the hypothalamus – reacted the exact same way in straight women and gay men when exposed to male pheromones, which are chemicals designed to provoke a behavior, such as sexual arousal. The same area of the brain only became stimulated in heterosexual men when introduced to female pheromones.

    – by Ivanka Savic article in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, (PNAS) “Brain Response To Putative Pheromones In Homosexual Men,” (Vol. 102 No. 19) May 10, 2005.

    In 2005, Dr. Brian Mustanski of the University of Illinois at Chicago published a study in the esteemed biomedical journal Human Genetics, claiming he identified three chromosomal regions linked to sexual orientation in men: 7q36, 8p12 and 10q26.

    “A Genomewide Scan of Male Sexual Orientation”, Human Genetics, Vol. 116, No. 4, pp. 272-278, 2005.

    In 2003, University of Texas psychoacoustics specialist Dennis McFadden found that when measuring the way the brain reacts to sound, lesbians fell in between heterosexual men and straight women, meaning they are exposed to higher than normal levels of male hormone in utero.

    – Loehlin, John C.; McFadden, David. “Otoacoustic emissions, auditory evoked potentials, and traits related to sex and sexual orientation”. Archives of Sexual Behavior. 1 April 2003.

    In 2003, University of Liverpool biologist John T. Manning found that the lesbians whom he studied have a hand pattern that resembles a man’ more than a straight female’. Manning concluded from his study that this “tells us that female homosexuals have had higher levels of exposure to testosterone before birth.”

    – Neave, N., Laing, S., Fink, B., Manning, J.T (2003) Second to fourth digit ratio, testosterone, and perceived male dominance. Proceedings of the Royal Society B (Lond), 270, 2167-2172.

    A 1991 study by Dr. Simon LeVay found that a specific region of the hypothalamus is twice as large in heterosexual men as it is in women or gay men. This shows the role of biology in sexual orientation.

    – Levay, Simon “A difference in hypothalamic structure between homosexual and heterosexual men” Science. 1991 Volume 253, Issue 5023, pp. 1034-1037.

    Another 1991 study by scientists Richard Pillard and John M. Baily studied homosexuality among brothers and found that 53 percent of identical twins were both gay. In adoptive brothers, 11 percent were both homosexual. Of non-twin biological siblings, 9 percent were gay. Again, this points to solid evidence that homosexuality is a matter of nature.

    – Bailey JM, Pillard RC (1991). A genetic study of male sexual orientation. Archives of General Psychiatry, 48, 1089-1096.

    June 28, 2012 at 1:53 pm |
  9. YeahRight

    "and being gay is not accepted in righteousness"

    The experts have proven you WRONG! Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

    June 28, 2012 at 1:51 pm |
  10. Lorraine Voss

    JWT, Bob, ttwp, I support the Strong One of the chosen the Creator of all life YHWH, and I have no idea why you all have this animosity against the Creator YHWH, for He should get all of the praise, this is what is taught in Isaiah 42 vs. 8, 9. The problem I have with all religions (pagan), is that in the book of Daniel 11 vs. 39, and vs. 43 we were warned of them, of christianity, and islam being strange gods that our forefathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob knew not. Then, the son, and firstborn of YHWH, He says Himself is 'Israel' the chosen people, in Exodus 4vs.22,23, not jc, there cannot be two firstborns people. And, no one can die for another persons sin, as taught by YHWH in Ezekiel 14v14, Ezekiel 18, and Jeremiah 31vs.30, YHWH is not contrary, why would He then change it latter in the NTnot true book? YHWH changes not in Malachi 3v6, taught to us, for YHWH does nothing without His prophets which is also taught in Amos 3v7, out of the book of remembrance, the so called OT, but truly its name is the book of remembrance in Malachi 3v16. YHWH is the Holy One, and the only savior, and redeemer as is taught in Isaiah 49vs.26, and 60vs.16, what are you people missing here? And in Isaiah 44vs.22, YHWH says He has forgotten our sin, and has redeemed us, and to return to Him, and in Malachi 3v7. This is a case of Jeremiah 50 vs. 38, and 33-39, people are mad about their idols, doing whatever they want, one against another, no peace, no love, no righteousness, for each other, just selfishness, every since the days of old, and until right now, this is going on, it has not changed from then, and being gay is not accepted in righteousness, but in my opinion, we are all born of a man, and a woman, and with all of the sinning of wrong doing, evil, and wickedness from generations, to generations what else do people think will happen, long suffering, pain, and mayhem, so it is no surprise, get over being gay, it is what it is, and it is here just like all the rest of the mess we have gotten ourselves into thinking we are in charge, and can just do whatever we want against the Creator YHWH, right.

    June 28, 2012 at 11:29 am |
    • JWT

      I have nothing against the creator – he doesn't exist.

      June 28, 2012 at 11:52 am |
  11. Bob

    Wow did I stir up a hornets nest It was the big O that sold you out not me. I wonder what Muslim law will look like in the US??

    June 28, 2012 at 11:08 am |
    • midwest rail

      No one has been sold out, Bob. Only the conspiracy theory followers put any stock in this right-wing gibberish. We already know what Muslim law will look like. The modern faux Christian shows us every day on these blogs.

      June 28, 2012 at 11:12 am |
  12. Jeannine

    "Calling you blind and hateful when facts are presented is truth because you didn't seek truth or justice only who presented it you just wanted it your way. "

    The Scriptures were written approximately 2000 or more years ago when there was no knowledge of constitutional homosexuality. The Scripture writers believed that all people were naturally heterosexual so that they viewed homosexuality activity as unnatural. Women today are pointing out that the inferiority of women expressed in the scriptures was a product of culture and the times in which the Bible was written; it should not be followed today, now that we are beginning to appreciate the natural and God-given equality of men and women.

    Similarly, as we know that homosexuality is just as natural and God-given as heterosexuality, we realize that the Biblical injunctions against homosexuality were conditioned by the attitudes and beliefs about this form of sexual expression which were held by people without benefit of centuries of scientific knowledge and understanding.

    It is unfair of us to expect or impose a twentieth century mentality and understanding about equality of genders, races and sexual orientations on the Biblical writers. We must be able to distinguish the eternal truths the Bible is meant to convey from the cultural forms and attitudes expressed there.

    June 28, 2012 at 10:36 am |
    • relic

      The bible is full of ad-ultery, r-ape, in-cest, and ho-mo-se-xuality.....you get the biggest DUH of the day!! You can twist and spin all day and even add some wishful thinking...but bottom line is that the bible has defined marriage as between a man and a woman from start to finish – God does not have to apologize or reshape His model for family – He is God

      June 28, 2012 at 2:40 pm |
    • James

      This would be a good study for you Jeannine. Per-verse behavior inside and outside of religion in ancient times, you are a bit out of touch here

      June 28, 2012 at 2:42 pm |
    • YeahRight

      ".but bottom line is that the bible has defined marriage as between a man and a woman from start to finish – God does not have to apologize or reshape His model for family – He is God"

      Yo moron, if you believe in your god then the evidence points to they are born gay. DUH! It's also why it's been documented in over 1500 other species, yeah your god created gay animals too. DUH! LMAO!

      June 28, 2012 at 2:43 pm |
    • Relic

      You can stand at the wishing well all day and throw pennies and there will still not be one scrap of evidence that people are born gay.....keep throwing if it makes you feel better. There are theories out there and studies happening but no conclusive proof of any kind.....maybe try nickels

      June 28, 2012 at 2:48 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @relic

      I could not possibly give less of a sh.it what your Un-holy book says about marriage, or what your immoral, jackas.s of a "god" says about it.

      June 28, 2012 at 2:52 pm |
    • Relic

      Hi Tom Tom....there you are

      June 28, 2012 at 2:57 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      Someone is listening to HevenSent's crazy to often. Too bad some of you are so paranoid that you need to believe stupid cra.p to hopefully stay relevant in your own eyes.

      June 28, 2012 at 3:04 pm |
  13. Erik

    "you are so blind and hatefull that when facts are presented"

    Oh, you mean facts like, all major medical professional organizations concur that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed, from gay to straight or otherwise. The American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and European Psychological, Psychiatric, and Medical Associations all agree with this, as does the World Health Organization and the medical organizations of Japan, China, and most recently, Thailand. Furthermore, attempts to change one's sexual orientation can be psychologically damaging, and cause great inner turmoil and depression, especially for Christian gays and lesbians.

    The scientific evidence of the innateness of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism is overwhelming, and more peer-reviewed studies which bolster this fact are being added all the time. Science has long regarded sexual orientation – and that's all sexual orientations, including heterosexuality – as a phenotype. Simply put, a phenotype is an observable set of properties that varies among individuals and is deeply rooted in biology. For the scientific community, the role of genetics in sexuality is about as "disputable" as the role of evolution in biology.

    On the second point, that there is no conclusion that there is a "gay gene," they are right. No so-called gay gene has been found, and it's highly unlikely that one ever will. This is where conservative Christians and Muslims quickly say "See, I told you so! There's no gay gene, so being gay is a choice!"

    The fact that a so-called "gay gene" has not been discovered does not mean that homosexuality is not genetic in its causation. This is understandably something that can seem a bit strange to those who have not been educated in fields of science and advanced biology, and it is also why people who are not scientists ought not try to explain the processes in simple black-and-white terms. There is no gay gene, but there is also no "height gene" or "skin tone gene" or "left-handed gene." These, like sexuality, have a heritable aspect, but no one dominant gene is responsible for them.

    Many genes, working in sync, contribute to the phenotype and therefore do have a role in sexual orientation. In many animal model systems, for example, the precise genes involved in sexual partner selection have been identified, and their neuro-biochemical pathways have been worked out in great detail. A great number of these mechanisms have been preserved evolutionarily in humans, just as they are for every other behavioral trait we know (including heterosexuality).

    There are many biologic traits which are not specifically genetic but are biologic nonetheless. These traits are rooted in hormonal influences, contributed especially during the early stages of fetal development. This too is indisputable and based on extensive peer-reviewed research the world over. Such prenatal hormonal influences are not genetic per se, but are inborn, natural, and biologic nevertheless.

    June 28, 2012 at 10:34 am |
    • relic

      There is not one drop of scientific proof that anyone is born gay – not one. Lots of studies, lots of almosts, lots of theories....but to this day there is no conclusive proof that anyone is born this way. Think I would have seen that headline – duh

      June 28, 2012 at 2:20 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      There is also no scientific proof that people are born left handed, yet we know this to be true. Do you think that left-handed people "choose" to be left handed?

      June 28, 2012 at 2:23 pm |
    • relic

      Thank-you for agreeing with me Tommy

      June 28, 2012 at 2:36 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      1) Tommy is someone else that I don't know
      2) Not answering the question shows a lot.

      Does it feel good to pick and choose everything in the world to fit your little bubble of idiocy.

      June 28, 2012 at 2:39 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "There is not one drop of scientific proof that anyone is born gay – not one. Lots of studies, lots of almosts, lots of theories....but to this day there is no conclusive proof that anyone is born this way. Think I would have seen that headline – duh"

      That's because you don't like the facts so you're making up crap. Yeah hundred of thousands of experts who say otherwise are basing it on bogus data. Duh! NOT!

      June 28, 2012 at 2:41 pm |
  14. YeahRight

    "you are so blind and hatefull that when facts are presented name calling and non acceptance is the way you behave."

    LMAO! Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

    June 28, 2012 at 10:33 am |
  15. John

    "So if you are down have accepted the Lord and are born again you are Gods child, You are not accident in birth but here for a purpose and God knows you personally"

    Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.

    Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.

    There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.

    Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.

    Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?

    Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).

    That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex

    June 28, 2012 at 10:27 am |
    • relic

      OOoooo Biship Frankenstein back with icky stuff!!! yuk

      June 28, 2012 at 2:16 pm |
  16. Bob

    Foreign policy was one of the issues that came up when U.S. Senate candidate Benjamin "Barry" Hinckley was interviewed on "State of the State," a cable television public affairs program that aired April 21 and 22.Hinckley, a Republican, was critical of foreign aid, and specifically questioned one of the aid decisions of the Obama administration. He was struggling a bit as he made his point, but here's what he said:"Obama gave the Muslim Brotherhood a million [then correcting himself] a billion and a half dollars last week, you know, in Egypt. We need that money here. A billion and a half dollars could really help Rhode Island, quite frankly. We probably need it, in my opinion, more than the Muslim Brotherhood needs it . . . especially when the Muslim Brotherhood got together, I think one of the first things they did, when they convened their new congress, was to make Israel enemy #1. And we give them a billion and a half dollars? That's a problem in my book. We need to focus our resources here."
    Luk 16:30 "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
    Luk 16:31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"
    You today have just verified the words of Jesus, you are so blind and hatefull that when facts are presented name calling and non acceptance is the way you behave.

    June 28, 2012 at 9:07 am |
    • midwest rail

      Interesting. Bob complains about name calling after repeatedly calling gay folk child predators, Nazis, and chumps. Can you say hypocrite ? Can you say non-Christian ? I knew you could.

      June 28, 2012 at 9:24 am |
    • Bob

      I said the truth when presented with the truth of the article you didn't accept it at all and reverted to the usual name calling just like usual. Just because you didn't like the truth just like Jesus. Calling you blind and hateful when facts are presented is truth because you didn't seek truth or justice only who presented it you just wanted it your way. Now I didn't call you stupid, moronic, lacking a brain, gullible, short sighted, lacking the moral graces of a chimpanzee or any of the other nasty things I could have said including a sodomite,. Now that would have been unchristian like and a value judgment.

      June 28, 2012 at 9:37 am |
    • midwest rail

      Please keep posting, Bob. The hole you're digging is getting deeper, your hypocrisy and decidedly unChristian views are on display for anyone with critical thinking skills. You're actually doing more to serve the cause of equal rights, as those " on the fence " have no wish to be associated with irrational thinking, hatred, and bigotry.

      June 28, 2012 at 9:59 am |
    • midwest rail

      " Bob-logic " as brought to you by Bob himself....Yes, I called gay people child predators, Nazis, and chumps. But I didn't call them any of the really hateful things I could have, so your name calling is unwarranted, but mine is not.

      Does anyone really need further evidence of Bob's hypocrisy ? Or his standing as a non-Christian ?

      June 28, 2012 at 12:12 pm |
  17. Bob

    Hey you guys who want gay marriage may have bigger worries the big O gave I.5 billion to the Mus Brotherhood and they are here in the US to establish Sharia law. Tampa is the meeting ahead of the picking of a candidate and then the national meeting.

    June 28, 2012 at 7:18 am |
    • midwest rail

      Given your stellar history of drawing the wrong conclusion from basic information, source please ?

      June 28, 2012 at 7:20 am |
    • Bob

      [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip4t0is1_Eo&w=640&h=390]
      This is the easiest source but yo can verify yourself.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:31 am |
    • midwest rail

      Seriously ? You are SERIOUSLY using a video from this right-wing whack job organization as EVIDENCE ? No wonder your brain is warped. Next.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:38 am |
    • JWT

      Whack-job is just way to polite a description.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:05 am |
    • Bob

      FOLLOW THE MONEY, What about the money trail, thats a lie too or the meetings???? Nice the gay community gives O millions for reelection and he brings in the mus brotherhood. Nice really nice boy sure makes them look like chumps doesn't it?

      June 28, 2012 at 8:23 am |
    • midwest rail

      The only " chump " in this scenario is you, Bob. That you put any stock whatever in the " info " provided by this nutjob tells me everything I need to know about your critical thinking skills. Next.

      June 28, 2012 at 8:46 am |
  18. Bob

    Loraine Voss
    called Jesus the anti Christ How much more do you need to know to prove the woman is herself the spirit of the anti Christ. Twisted.

    June 27, 2012 at 7:36 pm |
    • JWT

      Well he is not a god so who cares.

      June 27, 2012 at 8:08 pm |
    • Bob

      Your right he is not a god He is the God though

      June 27, 2012 at 8:49 pm |
    • JWT

      to you not to me.

      June 27, 2012 at 9:05 pm |
    • Bob

      JWT you may not know Him as God but He is God to all.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:19 am |
    • JWT

      You are psychotic bob. No god. I;d fight against your version of god.

      June 28, 2012 at 7:43 am |
  19. Lorraine Voss

    JWT, BUT... I just said that it is for all nations,meaning people' in Isaiah 56, and this is why He YHWH keeps His hand stretched out to us to return to Him, in Malachi 3v7, and what is this some play on words that many learn from the NT(not true book)? These scriptures are from the book of remembrance, the so called OT, in Malachi 3v16, they are not my version, they belong to YHWH, and it is YHWH who says in Malachi 2, Jeremiah 23 vs.1-8, Ezekiel 20, and Ezekiel 34, that all of the teachers of His word, doing pagan religions, all are idolatry, the pastors, priest, elders,popes, shepherds, are liars to the flocks, misleading them until this day, to control, and to gain, not me.

    June 27, 2012 at 6:26 pm |
    • Lorraine Voss

      Isaiah 9 vs. 11-21, just like then this is going on now, misleading the flocks.

      June 27, 2012 at 6:33 pm |
    • midwest rail

      That's all very fascinating. Does it relate to the article in some way ?

      June 27, 2012 at 6:40 pm |
    • JWT

      Indeed I did read what you said. Now did you read what I said – your god is not my god and never was thus your god is not the god of all people. My reality supercceds your god's fantasy.

      June 27, 2012 at 7:20 pm |
  20. Lorraine Voss

    Ash, I know, not believe in anything,because when you believe it could be true, or not true, and is only in your mind; but I 'know' the subjective, and the objective, that YHWH is the spirituality of all righteousness, and peace, and of all truth, of all 'life' and its connection is what I 'know' YHWH is the Holy One. As Moses taught from YHWH the law is our life, so choose life, and do the law in Deut.32vs.45-47. For peace, and righteousness, love, and truth not just for some, but for 'all' nations as is taught in Isaiah 56. Praise the Creator of all life, YHWH.

    June 27, 2012 at 5:54 pm |
    • JWT

      There is no doubt that your version of god is not the god of all pepole.

      June 27, 2012 at 6:00 pm |
    • ttwp

      Christ crucified, a call to all people, both Jews and Gentiles, to believe in Christ, as having purchased their salvation by shedding his blood for them. For without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Christ is our Passover Lamb who takes away our sins. The grace of God is what saves...not the law. The law is death.

      June 28, 2012 at 9:28 am |
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228
Advertisement
About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.