Editor's Note: Mark Osler is a Professor of Law at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
By Mark Osler, Special to CNN
I am a Christian, and I am in favor of gay marriage. The reason I am for gay marriage is because of my faith.
What I see in the Bible’s accounts of Jesus and his followers is an insistence that we don’t have the moral authority to deny others the blessing of holy institutions like baptism, communion, and marriage. God, through the Holy Spirit, infuses those moments with life, and it is not ours to either give or deny to others.
A clear instruction on this comes from Simon Peter, the “rock” on whom the church is built. Peter is a captivating figure in the Christian story. Jesus plucks him out of a fishing boat to become a disciple, and time and again he represents us all in learning at the feet of Christ.
During their time together, Peter is often naïve and clueless – he is a follower, constantly learning.
After Jesus is crucified, though, a different Peter emerges, one who is forceful and bold. This is the Peter we see in the Acts of the Apostles, during a fevered debate over whether or not Gentiles should be baptized. Peter was harshly criticized for even eating a meal with those who were uncircumcised; that is, those who did not follow the commands of the Old Testament.
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Peter, though, is strong in confronting those who would deny the sacrament of baptism to the Gentiles, and argues for an acceptance of believers who do not follow the circumcision rules of Leviticus (which is also where we find a condemnation of homosexuality).
His challenge is stark and stunning: Before ordering that the Gentiles be baptized Peter asks “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
None of us, Peter says, has the moral authority to deny baptism to those who seek it, even if they do not follow the ancient laws. It is the flooding love of the Holy Spirit, which fell over that entire crowd, sinners and saints alike, that directs otherwise.
My Take: Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality
It is not our place, it seems, to sort out who should be denied a bond with God and the Holy Spirit of the kind that we find through baptism, communion, and marriage. The water will flow where it will.
Intriguingly, this rule will apply whether we see homosexuality as a sin or not. The water is for all of us. We see the same thing at the Last Supper, as Jesus gives the bread and wine to all who are there—even to Peter, who Jesus said would deny him, and to Judas, who would betray him.
The question before us now is not whether homosexuality is a sin, but whether being gay should be a bar to baptism or communion or marriage.
Your Take: Rethinking the Bible on homosexuality
The answer is in the Bible. Peter and Jesus offer a strikingly inclusive form of love and engagement. They hold out the symbols of Gods’ love to all. How arrogant that we think it is ours to parse out stingily!
I worship at St. Stephens, an Episcopal church in Edina, Minnesota. There is a river that flows around the back and side of that church with a delightful name: Minnehaha Creek. That is where we do baptisms.
The Rector stands in the creek in his robes, the cool water coursing by his feet, and takes an infant into his arms and baptizes her with that same cool water. The congregation sits on the grassy bank and watches, a gentle army.
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At the bottom of the creek, in exactly that spot, is a floor of smooth pebbles. The water rushing by has rubbed off the rough edges, bit by bit, day by day. The pebbles have been transformed by that water into something new.
I suppose that, as Peter put it, someone could try to withhold the waters of baptism there. They could try to stop the river, to keep the water from some of the stones, like a child in the gutter building a barrier against the stream.
It won’t last, though. I would say this to those who would withhold the water of baptism, the joy of worship, or the bonds of marriage: You are less strong than the water, which will flow around you, find its path, and gently erode each wall you try to erect.
The redeeming power of that creek, and of the Holy Spirit, is relentless, making us all into something better and new.
The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Mark Osler.
Yeah Right the pimple on the butt of society or maybe we should call him repost central nothing original always the same boring crap
And all you do is copy and paste Bible verses or your own uninformed opinion. You're a dope.
"Yeah Right the pimple on the butt of society or maybe we should call him repost central nothing original always the same boring crap"
Hey look another lie, scroll down moron, it' wasn't the same boring crap, it was the REAL Truth. You are nothing but a liar and prejudice bigot.
This one goes out to all you fundamentalist Christians out there. Selah! I may be too narrow addressing this to just the fundamentalists. Many traditional Christians also fit the bill. Really, it’s anyone who believes that homosexuality is a sin, and that somehow God, infinite and eternal creator and sustainer of the very Universe, is ‘against’ a tiny human behavior that harms no one. So, in other words, uneducated and ridiculous people everywhere.
Officially, the majority of Christian churches say that homosexual behavior is a sin, thus proving that the theologians behind those churches don’t understand their own Bible. There are a whole bunch of goofball laws written down in the Old Testament that everyone ignores. Why is being bigoted toward homosexuals the one people latch onto?
The various Christian brands go through the Old Testament, picking and choosing the parts they consider cool. No one accepts the whole thing. No one. I mean, when was the last time a cheating spouse was actually put to death in keeping with the commandments of the Bible?
Using the Old Testament to determine if something is a sin is simply a matter of human and not godly opinion. It’s meaningless and certainly not ‘the word of God’. His teachings aren’t some basket of fruit for you to pick over. You either have to accept the old law in its entirety and start killing lots and lots of people or reject it in its entirety. Hand-picking the stuff you like is bogus, especially when you only pick the stuff that seems to legitimize your meanness to other people.
So the Old Testament is out.
Before we all start playing REM’s “Losing My Religion,” consider this denying someone the right to marry is not Christian, and certainly not American.
The people who are opposed to gay marriage, and by extension, gayness itself have no excuse. They are bigots and bigots alone. They can’t use their special book to justify their hate, even according to the special book itself. They have no one to thank but themselves. They take the Lord’s name in vain and feel righteous about it
Yes, they take the Lord’s name in vain. Most people believe incorrectly that this commandment is about cussing, but it’s not. It’s about using God for yourself, for your own vain [persona] ends. They hold the Bible in the air and use it like a bitch to bolster their own prejudices and bigotry and hate and that is vanity, all is vanity.
The teachings of Christ are plain enough: love and forgiveness, tolerance and healing, acceptance and rebellion. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing more needed. Add what you will to it, it still won’t be from the Christ. It will come from your own (black?) heart.
Jesus Christ is the origin of the word ‘Christian’. Perhaps we should pray about that a bit more.
Today’s Christians tend to be followers, accepting of the notion that religion is just a box built by someone else into which they must stuff their spirit. They are naive and willingly line up like lemmings wherever told. They have a casual ignorance that tells them the Beast will come in the obvious guise of science or secularism or liberality. They cannot conceive of the Father of Lies actually lying to them.
Sinclair Lewis said that when fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying the cross. When the Beast comes to the world, you can bet your sweet ass he will be thumping the Bible and preaching a hate disguised as love.
"Hey guys don't fall into the trap of these atheists, gays and supporters that hate anything to do with what is right and true and honest."
The Biblical condemnation of homosexuality is based on human ignorance, suspicion of those who are different, and an overwhelming concern for ensuring the survival of the people. Since the Bible regards homosexuality as a capital crime, it clearly assumes that homosexuality is a matter of free choice, a deliberate rebellion against God. We have learned from modern science that people do not choose to be gay or straight; hence it is neither logical nor moral to condemn those whose nature it is to be gay or lesbian.
Let me start this off with a quote from a famous lesbian, Lynn Lavner:
"There are 6 admonishments in the Bible concerning homosexual activity, and our enemies are always throwing them up to us – usually in a vicious way and very much out of context.
What they don't want us to remember is that there are 362 admonishments in the Bible concerning heterosexual activity. I don't mean to imply by this that God doesn't love straight people, only that they seem to require a great deal more supervision."
I am going to attempt to keep this short and simple, so here we go.
Some claim that Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 clearly say that homosexual sex is an abomination. In fact, it merits death. Isn't it obvious that God hates homosexuality?
Yes, depending on which translation you are using, Leviticus does say, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female, it's an abomination." However, a few points must be made about this statement:
a) It appears in Leviticus, which was given to preserve the distinctive characteristics of the religion and culture of Israel. However, as stated in Galatians 3:22-55, Christians are no longer bound by these Jewish laws. Even if you, for some reason, argue that these "laws" are still important, then you surely follow all of them, right?
It is interesting that people who use Leviticus against the gay community forget the part that talks about religious sacrifices, making women sleep in tents outside during their period, the dietary restrictions placed on them and how to cleanse a leper, all of which appear in Leviticus.
The laws of Leviticus are completely obsolete for today's Christian; however, even if you do claim to live by the laws of Leviticus, it is not fair to pick and choose which laws you are going to live by, or condemn a people by, if you are not going to follow the others. You should not need any more convincing evidence than this; but if you do, be my guest.
b) The word that was in the original work, "to'ebah," which was translated into Greek as "bdglygma" actually means "ritual impurity" rather than abomination (or enormous sin). These passages in Leviticus can be translated to not mean homosexual sex generally, but only limiting homosexual sex in Pagan temples.
c) This passage does not denounce homosexual behavior as a whole, but just the specific act of anal sex. This was meant for the prevention of disease. It was ruled unclean because it was physically unclean; however, hygiene has made wonderful advances since that time.
d) These passages in Leviticus can be interpreted in many ways. I have seen it interpreted by scholars and priests to mean: "don't have sex with another man in your wife's bed;" "don't have sex with another man in the temple;" and "don't have sex with another man and pretend he is a woman," just to name a few.
I have never seen an interpretation in any Bible, or from any scholar, that specifically says to never have sex with a man.
Some claim the Bible simply does not support gay marriage. Chapter two of Genesis defines marriage as a holy union between a man and a woman. And later, in Matthew 19:4-5, Jesus himself reiterates the traits of a traditional marriage. How can you argue that anything other than celibacy is honorable for gay and lesbian people?
Yes, marriage is a holy union. However, in these passages, while Jesus reiterates (but does not require) the traditional marriage, he also provides an exception for eunuchs (castrated men – or otherwise impotent men, in today's terms), and allowed them to be married, saying that this law is given to those to whom it applies.
Because these eunuchs were born sexless, God made an exception for them because it was natural. The same applies to the Gay community today. Science has proven homosexuality is completely natural, so it seems God would allow for homosexual marriages.
In Matthew 19: 4-5, Jesus encourages a traditional path, but does not discourage alternatives, except in the case of divorce.
Jesus did stress purity of marriage, but not in regard to the sexes of the people within it. It can be seen that the reason that churches are against homosexual marriage is not because it is explicitly said by God, but because of a lack of instruction to specifically allow it.
In the time that the Bible was written it would have been impossible to foresee the future to be able to specifically allow or forbid homosexual marriage.
Some claim, in Paul's letter to the Corinthians, he lists homosexuals amongst the many sinners who will not inherit the kingdom of God. Doesn't that make God's position on this vice very clear?
If we look at the other types of people listed in this passage, we can understand what it is actually talking about. Law breakers, thieves, adulterers and drunks are specifically mentioned. The word "homosexual" was not found until the 1890s, so it would have been impossible for it to be in the original version.
What actually appears in the original is Paul condemning those who are "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind." In this context, the original Greek word, "malakos," is translated into effeminate, or soft, which, more than likely, refers to someone who lacks discipline or moral control.
In this passage, when Paul condemns "abusers of themselves with mankind," he is speaking of male prostitutes.
Then there are the people who claim that, even though science has proven that people don't choose their sexual orientation, the fact remains that homosexuality is unnatural. Romans 1:26-27 tells us that humans have a sinful nature, and therefore commit sins against God. Certain people are predisposed to be alcoholics and pedophiles, but that doesn't make their actions any less immoral. God tells us to "tear out your eye" if it makes you stumble. Why can't you just accept homosexuality as the part of your nature you must deny?
Because the Bible has gone through so many translations, and through the hands of many people (some being non-believers); it is not surprising that the meaning has become a little fuzzy in parts.
Homosexuality is normal. The phrase "para physin" appears in the original text for this verse. This term is often translated to mean "unnatural;" however, more accurate translation would be unconventional.
Proof for this can be found in 1 Corinthians 11:14 where Paul uses this phrase to refer to men with long hair (unconventional, not unnatural) and in Romans 11:24 where Paul uses this phrase to refer to the positive action God made to bring together the Jews and Gentiles.
All in all, homosexuality is obviously not a sin, unless you take passages from the Bible and add your own words or you just try really hard to interpret it that way. Let's just remember Galatians 5:14, where Paul stated, "the whole Law is fulfilled in one Statement, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
I think two of the biggest fears of accepting the Lord and truly following His ways, are we are shown how our behavior is wrong and that we need to give up some things in our lives. We dont like to be corrected I guess that is why so many are broken when they come to the Lord. Because in brokenness you know you have tried and not found what your looking for. If you are King of the hill why would you want to come to Him? But even king of the hill needs the Lord just as much as the one that tried so many ways only to find despair. The really funny thing is He may make you king of the hill but with His blessings and His power bringing you there so that it is in His protection and guidance that you rely. The other is we need to give up certain ways and sometimes they are things we may like. I have never known the Lord to ask us to give up something that was good for us. He always replaces things with better things and things that make us happy and fulfilled as people, because He knows our hearts and the way He made us. Anyone can come to the Lord, but it is those that seek a relationship with Him that will receive the full reward He has for us. Why does anyone want to change the word? is it because they have no faith in the Lord to do what He says He will do and yet wants to receive the blessings that are talked about? To not have to endure the pull of things that the Lord says to change to grow and lead a good life? To those in the Lord all things are possible to believe less and to change the word to accommodate us is to have no faith in the Lord and to put ourselves above God and to have us skip the ability to cry out to Him and perform a miracle in our lives. The herises are so dangerous that are spoken about here because love is not above faith they work as a team with God being the one to come to our aid. But if you subvert the word then you cancel the hope and power that God so much wants to show all those who love Him.
"Why does anyone want to change the word?"
No one is changing it because it's about interpretation and only prejudice bigots like you read it as condemning gays which it does not. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
Hey guys don't fall into the trap of these atheists, gays and supporters that hate anything to do with what is right and true and honest. That’s what they do that’s who they are unlike most gays. Tom is one of the worst and doesn’t give a rats azz for you if you’re not gay or endorse gay ideals or actually care for anyone. Perverted distorted unable to have a normal give and take in a conversation. That’s because not only don’t they care but they are there to do one thing to disrupt and brutalize normal caring people. As witnessed this testimony to a girl that has come from death to life and they just want to pee on this just like a dog marking his territory. They need to make sure that everyone is as miserable as themselves otherwise what would be the reason to bad mouth a wonderful conversion. They are a extremely bad reflection on gays and any group associated with them
To your point, many here are struggling with the realization that their behavior and acts are at crosspurposes with Biblical direction. We keep hearing about "loving, committed relationships" - what really matters is the behavior is WRONG!
There is hope and promise through the practice of celib@cy. The explosion of STDs and a new plague of AIDS among young, gay men lays bare the false mantra of "loving, committed relationships".
Thanks Bob for keeping the discussion focused on reality.
Well bob you certainly do your share of badmouthing.
And of course the most important point: There are many points of views and opinions on what a person's view of a gof had said or meant. Your poistion that anyone who disagrees wth yours is wrong is just wrong. Have a nice day.
That is the problem isn't it you think that there are many interpretations to Gods word. Well there isn't, you would like there to be just like Jesus and the three temptations on the mountain. But if you are filled with the Spirit then there is one interpretation of the Bible. Why do you think Jesus talked in parables? So that people like you would not be able to understand the true kingdom of God. Men can say anything they want, just like the devil here misinterprets scripture and Jesus corrects him. You and your lot do the same as the devil so if you act the same then where did you come from? It is beauty, wholeness and peace to live the Word rather than to distort it to accommodate a personal view.
Mat 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
Mat 4:2 And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry.
Mat 4:3 And the tempter came and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."
Mat 4:4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"
Mat 4:5 Then the devil *took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 4:6 and *said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written, 'HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU'; and 'ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.'"
Mat 4:7 Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, 'YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.'"
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil *took Him to a very high mountain and *showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;
Mat 4:9 and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me."
Mat 4:10 Then Jesus *said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"
Mat 4:11 Then the devil *left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.
Mat 4:12 Now when Jesus heard that John had been taken into custody, He withdrew into Galilee;
Mat 4:13 and leaving Nazareth, He came and settled in Capernaum, which is by the sea, in the region of Zebulun and Naphtali.
Mat 4:14 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet:
Mat 4:15 "THE LAND OF ZEBULUN AND THE LAND OF NAPHTALI, BY THE WAY OF THE SEA, BEYOND THE JORDAN, GALILEE OF THE GENTILES–
Mat 4:16 "THE PEOPLE WHO WERE SITTING IN DARKNESS SAW A GREAT LIGHT, AND THOSE WHO WERE SITTING IN THE LAND AND SHADOW OF DEATH, UPON THEM A LIGHT DAWNED."
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Hey guys don't fall into the trap of these atheists, gays and supporters that hate anything to do with what is right and true and honest. – LIE
That’s what they do that’s who they are unlike most gays. – LIE
Tom is one of the worst and doesn’t give a rats azz for you if you’re not gay or endorse gay ideals or actually care for anyone. – LIE
Perverted distorted unable to have a normal give and take in a conversation. – LIE
That’s because not only don’t they care but they are there to do one thing to disrupt and brutalize normal caring people. – LIE
As witnessed this testimony to a girl that has come from death to life and they just want to pee on this just like a dog marking his territory. – LIE
They need to make sure that everyone is as miserable as themselves otherwise what would be the reason to bad mouth a wonderful conversion. – LIE
They are a extremely bad reflection on gays and any group associated with them. – LIE you’re the one spreading the hatred and lies about this group. What a hypocrite too.
Bob has been proven a liar over and over again on this blog proving he can’t even follow one of the basic ten commandments and why anything he posts is from hatred and bigotry. P.S. Bob = Douglas, Duh!
"That is the problem isn't it you think that there are many interpretations to Gods word. Well there isn't, you would like there to be just like Jesus and the three temptations on the mountain. But if you are filled with the Spirit then there is one interpretation of the Bible. "
What a load of crap. It's why there are so many denominations of Christianity and numerous versions of the bible. It's also why there are 1000's of churches marrying gays and stating being gay as we know it today is not a sin. It's also why there are even gay clergy. It's also why 100 pastors went on record apologizing to the gay community for their prejudice towards them. Duh!
Helpful Hint person, I don't need your so called help, I 'know' it, my post has been disallowed, for all the others I had were allowed, it is about the contents of my post is what this issue is here, weirdo, and you can keep mocking the Creator YHWH, it is on you, its your responsibility to hold, and does not have nothing to do with me, carry on...as is prophesied in Malachi 3:13,15.
Paranoia the destroya
Your posts are not being blocked for content...it is likely some word you would never think is on the list but is.
As far as your content...it SHOULD be deleted because it is pure crap, but that is a topic for another day.
Test it this way....put a space in between every letter and then post....it will work or your money back.
For what it's worth, there are no moderators, no content filters beyond the rather inane word filter that Helpful Hints is helpful enough to post from time to time to remind folks.
Often the word that is hanging up your post is actually a part of a larger word. I recently had trouble with the word "vague". I didn't realize that the letter combo v.a.g would result in my comment getting pulled by the filter.
It's always funny to see people like Lorraine go all conspiracy theory crazy, and think that there are moderators that can read, review, and censor posts in the instant between pressing the post button and the screen refreshing.
" I 'know' it, my post has been disallowed, for all the others I had were allowed, it is about the contents of my post is what this issue is here,"
This blog is overflowing with lengthy posts from you. What is your evidence that some are disallowed for "content"? What exactly is the message that you have gotten from CNN moderators/editors?
you slipped that one by me....
p.s. The only other "blocking" that I have ever run across is the one where if you try to copy/paste one of your previous posts, there is a message something like, "You already said that" or "Repeat posting"... and you will need to change a minor part of it.
Who invited me?
"Test it this way....put a space in between every letter and then post..."
Heheheh, I wonder what ever happened to @RightTurnClyde, who used to do precisely that (or a dot between each letter)?!
Slippery like a snake. MUWAHAHAHA
Not to mention Hungry Like The Wolf.
I just wanted to see if the lune would do it, her posts are more delusional than most, and often vERY long, so what the hell
You can people some of the fools all of the tiime, but you can;t time all of the fools some of the people
@Who invited me?
Took me a little bit to actually translate that. Wow that confused me for a second.
Get a fucking grip.
CNN uses WordPress blogs for their opinion pieces, and they use automated censoring that looks for words, or fragments of words, that are considered offensive. If your post doesn't show up, it most likely had a forbidden word in it.
On the Belief Blog, repeat posts, even those that were previously censored and not displayed, will show a message stating that you posted it before.
The following words or word fragments will get your post censored (list is incomplete):
arse as in Arsenal
cock as in cockatiel
coon as in cocoon
cum as in circumstance
homo as in homosexual
poo as in spooked
rape as in grape
sex as in homosexual
spic as in despicable
tit as in constitution or title
vag as in vague
To circumvent the filters you can break up the words by putting an extra character in, like: consti.tution (breaking the oh so naughty "tit").
Hint: No one at CNN cares about your posts.
I suspect "Lorraine" is the female alter ego of "Topher" – they both sure like to be abused!
The filters are hard to deal with sometimes but they are not personal they are only word editors like others have said. If you go to post something and it goes to the heading of the page it will not post but if it goes to the what you have written and shows it in the existing thread then it will post. Just use the back if if didn't post, edit some words and repost and see what happens. It can sometimes be infuriating an d time consuming to keep having to repost each comment.
Is homosexuality a sin?
Self-indulgence is a sin; but the relationship of two people of the same sex may or may not be self-indulgent.
Abusing the neighbor is a sin. But the exploration of relationships among homosexuals as they search for partners, evaluate their existing formative relationships, and relate to each other may or may not be abusive.
Disobeying what God commands in the Bible is a sin. But, we have biblically-derived criteria for assessing and applying specific commands by reading them against larger themes.
Turning your back on God is a sin. Homosexuals are often among those who have turned their back on the church, and may be sinning because they also rejected the God they found in church. The church needs to be in mission to homosexuals with the message of Jesus and who God really is.
Yielding to your passions, even celebrating them is a sin. Homosexuals do include those who have done this. But it is not an inherent aspect of being gay.
Since we see people who have dedicated themselves to God, and for whom their gay sexual life is integrated into that decision and we see that their sexuality does not draw them away from church we must conclude that being and living gay is not a behavior in and of itself that produces pain to the neighbor and leads one away from God.
By the criteria the scripture sets for us for what is godly life, and by the reasoning scripture asks us to employ, homosexuality cannot be described as against God’s law.
If this seems like a rather quiet sort of justification for homosexuality, then perhaps it is because the grand clichés of this debate have been shouted at us for too long. But look at the Bible: it's demands and vision cut across all categories, not staying on the surface but penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart, rejecting all forms of self-justification, all forms of attack on the "other" and all forms of escape from God's assessment of our behavior. How on earth could we have ever thought that a series of flat rules was all God wanted to tell us on morality?
"1Co 7:4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does."
The Scriptures were written approximately 2000 or more years ago when there was no knowledge of constitutional homosexuality. The Scripture writers believed that all people were naturally heterosexual so that they viewed homosexuality activity as unnatural. Women today are pointing out that the inferiority of women expressed in the scriptures was a product of culture and the times in which the Bible was written; it should not be followed today, now that we are beginning to appreciate the natural and God-given equality of men and women.
Similarly, as we know that homosexuality is just as natural and God-given as heterosexuality, we realize that the Biblical injunctions against homosexuality were conditioned by the attitudes and beliefs about this form of sexual expression which were held by people without benefit of centuries of scientific knowledge and understanding.
It is unfair of us to expect or impose a twentieth century mentality and understanding about equality of genders, races and sexual orientations on the Biblical writers. We must be able to distinguish the eternal truths the Bible is meant to convey from the cultural forms and attitudes expressed there.
"Co 7:2 But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband.
1Co 7:3 The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband."
The scriptures actually say nothing about homosexuality as a psychosexual orientation. Our understandings of sexual orientation are distinctly modern ones that were not present in the minds of Scripture writers. A few passages of Scripture (seven at the most) object to certain types of same-sex expressions or acts. The particular acts in question, however, are sexual expressions which are exploitative, oppressive, commercialized, or offensive to ancient purity rituals. There is no Scriptural guidance for same-sex relationships which are loving and mutually respecting. Guidelines for these relationships should come from the same general Scriptural norms that apply to heterosexual relationships.
"Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures."
Well DUH Bob, they were using sex to worship a pagan god or is your reading comprehension really that bad. That scripture has NOTHING to do with a saved loving long term gay couple as we know and understand it today. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
Gee, Eric couldn't answer my questions so he turned tail. Surprise, surprise!
What else is new?
Wait! Maybe BOB can ....uh. oh.. no...um..never mind!
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Rom 1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty
Co 7:2 But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband.
1Co 7:3 The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband.
1Co 7:4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
1Co 7:5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
1Co 7:6 But this I say by way of concession, not of command.
Another useless post from a useless person (AKA Bob).
There is hope for our brothers and sisters who are trapped in the abyss of sin characterized by the reprobate mindset.
Resist the temptation and rise up from the depths of sinful acts that bring only pain, heartache and suffering. How many
have to die needlessly from runaway STDs because of the selfishness of pursuit of self-gratification at any cost.
Bob, thanks for taking the time to share these outstanding Biblical passages. Your generosity will be rewarded.
I'm sorry that religion has made you despise who you are, Douglas. I'm sorry that you have been taught that love is evil. Perhaps you are unaware that there is more evidence that hom.os.exuality is innate than there is proof of any god.
The gays and lesbians I know are happy, good people, many of them in committed relationships. You can be miserable if you want, Douglas, but you don't have to be. Why not educate yourself a little, about your religion and your true nature, before you try to share your self-loathing with others?
"There is hope for our brothers and sisters who are trapped in the abyss of sin characterized by the reprobate mindset."
This just shows how prejudice and uniformed this poster is on this subject but honestly Bob and Douglass are probably one and the same, since Bob is so desperate to justify his unfounded prejudice. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
Your flawed logic was followed to a flawed conclusion
Humans are social animals, we build communities and work toward common goals, because it is mutually beneficial to do so.
Many animals are social animals.
I am an athesit and do not think that I have the freedom to run around hacking people with a machete
I try to help people whenever I can, do no harm if possible, and support those around me. I do not need the crutch of religion or the threat of a god to do these things.
Your logic is not logic.
"Each choice we make is ours."
All major medical professional organizations concur that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed, from gay to straight or otherwise. The American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and European Psychological, Psychiatric, and Medical Associations all agree with this, as does the World Health Organization and the medical organizations of Japan, China, and most recently, Thailand. Furthermore, attempts to change one's sexual orientation can be psychologically damaging, and cause great inner turmoil and depression, especially for Christian gays and lesbians.
The scientific evidence of the innateness of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism is overwhelming, and more peer-reviewed studies which bolster this fact are being added all the time. Science has long regarded sexual orientation – and that's all sexual orientations, including heterosexuality – as a phenotype. Simply put, a phenotype is an observable set of properties that varies among individuals and is deeply rooted in biology. For the scientific community, the role of genetics in sexuality is about as "disputable" as the role of evolution in biology.
On the second point, that there is no conclusion that there is a "gay gene," they are right. No so-called gay gene has been found, and it's highly unlikely that one ever will. This is where conservative Christians and Muslims quickly say "See, I told you so! There's no gay gene, so being gay is a choice!"
The fact that a so-called "gay gene" has not been discovered does not mean that homosexuality is not genetic in its causation. This is understandably something that can seem a bit strange to those who have not been educated in fields of science and advanced biology, and it is also why people who are not scientists ought not try to explain the processes in simple black-and-white terms. There is no gay gene, but there is also no "height gene" or "skin tone gene" or "left-handed gene." These, like sexuality, have a heritable aspect, but no one dominant gene is responsible for them.
Many genes, working in sync, contribute to the phenotype and therefore do have a role in sexual orientation. In many animal model systems, for example, the precise genes involved in sexual partner selection have been identified, and their neuro-biochemical pathways have been worked out in great detail. A great number of these mechanisms have been preserved evolutionarily in humans, just as they are for every other behavioral trait we know (including heterosexuality).
There are many biologic traits which are not specifically genetic but are biologic nonetheless. These traits are rooted in hormonal influences, contributed especially during the early stages of fetal development. This too is indisputable and based on extensive peer-reviewed research the world over. Such prenatal hormonal influences are not genetic per se, but are inborn, natural, and biologic nevertheless.
"It is a sin just like all other sins."
"Yes we each have our own thought and opinions but in reality there is only one truth. Opinions are not truth. and your statement alone is a paradox. if there are many shades how can your statement be correct."
Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.
Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.
There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.
Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.
Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?
Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).
That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex.
"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable" (Leviticus 18:22) and "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. "
Christians don't follow Leviticus anymore, it's part of the Holiness Code, a ritual manual for Israel's priests. LMAO
Homosexuality is not a sin according to the Bible. Any educated Christian would know that. Scholars who have studied the Bible in context of the times and in relation to other passages have shown those passages (Leviticus, Corinthians, Roman,; etc...) have nothing to do with homosexuality. These passages often cherry-picked while ignoring the rest of the Bible. The sins theses passages are referring to are idolatry, prostitution, and rape, not homosexuality. That’s why Jesus never mentions it as well. There is nothing immoral, wrong, or sinful about being gay. Jesus, however, clearly states he HATES hypocrites. If you preach goodness, then promote hate and twist the words of the Bible, you are a hypocrite, and will be judged and sent to hell. Homosexuals will not go to hell, hypocrites will. This is very similar to the religious bigots of the past, where they took Bible passages to condone slavery, keep women down, and used Bible passages to claim blacks as curses who should be enslaved by the white man. People used God to claim that blacks marrying whites was unnatural, and not of God's will.
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable" (Leviticus 18:22) and "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads" (Leviticus 20:13 Should I add more
You are going to quote leviticus as your reason for bigotry?
First off you take it out of context, if you read ALL of it, pretty much anyone who has s e x should die,as well as a few others.
Why did your god create so many gay people?...so you would have someone to hate and kill?
It is a sin just like all other sins. However if you are guilty of breaking any part of the law you are guilty of breaking the entire law. Therefore all of us are equally guilty. From liers, cheats adulterers murderers. You despise the sin not the person. I have sinned and unfortunatly will again. The only to be forgiven is through Jesus Christ.
No, because you offer nothing but Scripture. Your interpretation differs from mine and that of others. And frankly, we don't base our laws or our rights on your Babble.
So, Eric – tell us all how many gay people you've killed ?
Im not sure how else to read those verses I guess a simple NO would have been better what else could it mean. How do you take it.
Of course none. Love your neighbor as yourself is the command left by Jesus.
Have you even bothered to read what others have written ABOUT those verses on here, Eric? You don't "know how else to read" those verses. That doesn't mean there aren't other interpretations of them-you simply haven't ever thought about them. You sound awfully young. Things are not black and white-there are many shades of gray.
And I notice that you never addressed the fact that your beliefs do not determine the rights and privileges others should have.
" They must be put to death..." " Of course none. " Why not ?
I used to buy into the many shades of grey idea many many years ago. Yes we each have our own thought and opinions but in reality there is only one truth. Opinions are not truth. and your statement alone is a paradox. if there are many shades how can your statement be correct.
Oh, I forgot, you're the guy who thinks there can be only one truth. If you don't get the idea, I don't know what to tell you. There are many truths, and very few of them are absolute. Most of what you think of as 'truth' is nothing more than your opinion.
If there is only one "truth", why are there over 38,000 different versions of the "truth"?
ANd you never answered....Why did god make so many gay people?
"Many, many years ago."
How "many" years ago? How old are you?
There are many different partial truths, half truths. Example I didsecurity and police work, when interviewing witnesses each persons story was different. Each thought it was the truth. Now did the crime happen many different ways at the same time, or did each person think that they knew the truth. In reality the crime only happened 1 way that is the truth
I wonder, Eric, do you think that denying gays the right to marry will make them go away? Turn straight? Stop being gay? What will your insistence on calling their behavior a sin based on some book achieve? What possible good will it ever do?
GOd made people what we decide to do with our lives is up to us. Each choice we make is ours. Some people are alcholics they we not made that way. Some are Adulterers is all choice.
We're not talking about an event, dear. A crime is an event. There are facts that can be used to prove it and show how it was committed.
That isn't the kind of "truth" you are talking about.
The bible also calls murder a sin should we reward that sin? How about lieing, I can see it now Kid lies to his dad, dad punishes next thing you know the dad is intollerent of his son because GOD made him a liar.
Being gay is not a choice...only you religious zealots believe that, and are absolutely wrong.
Ask these two questions.
When did you choose to be straight?
Is it possible for someone to convince you to be gay?
Oh, so you think people choose to be gay? That they can decide at any point to be straight?
Evidence says otherwise.
How do you know that what you believe is 'truth'? Can you prove that it's true?
Many people, far more knowledgeable about psychology, genetics, and s3xuality disagree with this belief. Why should your opinion hold sway when the rights of others are affected by it?
Please provide me an example of a non event, what you are refering too.
The only way to god is through his son, Jesus Christ.
Have at it, Eric. You believe that to be an absolute truth, don't you?
Guess what? Millions and millions of others don't. Do you have any proof of your belief other than the Bible?
I find women attractive I have my entire life. I am married Now yes there are attractive women out there. I choose not to even consider a physical relation ship with them My action is the choice not the drive. My feeling are wicked what I do about it is the choice.
" They must be put to death.. " " The bible also calls murder a sin." Please reconcile.
For The Babble and the god it alledges to exist to have any standing, someone is going to have to prove that some god exists and that The Babble is the word of that god. To date, no one, NO ONE, has even come close to proving either.
So believers, produce your proof, or admit that the beliefs you often claim are the most important thing in your life are based on pure bullsh!t.
There is no middle ground – put up of shut up!
"Murder" is a crime not because it's a "sin" according to the bible, but because it infringes on others' rights. Gay marriage does not. Hom0s3xuality doesn't either. Lying (not lieing) is not a crime in and of itself; if it causes harm to someone else it can be a crime.
Are you unable to see this?
"Yes we each have our own thought and opinions but in reality there is only one truth. Opinions are not truth."
Your version of truth is only opinion and truths have changed over time. For example people in the past use to think being gay was a mental illness, we now know through unbiased research that is NOT true. The experts today showed that what was written in the past about gay people were done by bias and prejudice people, that includes the writers of your bible. Their version of truth for them was PREJUDICE, which you are trying to hold onto to justify your own unfounded and prejudice view point.
Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
Correct murder is wrong. However Killing and murder are very different. Im sure i dont need to elaberate.
Your feelings are not wicked...it is called lust and it is THE most natural feeling of all animals. The s e x drive is not wicked, only your religion has hijacked this normal, and natural feeling and made you feel like it is bad.
I pity you.
And yes what we choose to do reflests directly on us.
SO you are saying that a gay man, should lie with a woman, even when this is completely un-natural for HIM, just so your version of the truth in the bible are satisfied?
You are really looking more and more like a close-minded, hypocritical, ignorant person. Your are to be pitied.
I find women attractive I have my entire life.
So there was never any "choice" involved in your attraction? Never a moment in which you 'decided' you were not attracted to males? Then why would you think gays are any different?
I am married Now yes there are attractive women out there. I choose not to even consider a physical relation ship with them My action is the choice not the drive. My feeling are wicked what I do about it is the choice.
So you think that gays, being attracted someone of the same gender, should simply live a life of celibacy and die alone? That they should pretend to be straight and marry, only to live miserably AND make a spouse miserable as well? That they should have children with a spouse to whom they are unable to feel any attraction and end up possibly divorcing?
If gays cannot marry legally, then what "choices" have you and your fellow zealots given them?
"Killing is not the same as murder."
Pretty much the same to the person who's dead as a result of either.
The only difference is the legal definition of the two, and the Biblical definition is irrelevant in a court of law.
" Killing and murser are very different. " So I ask again – why do you not follow Leviticus to it's logical conclusion and do what it commands ?
I find it funny you call me prejudice. Very far from it. You can choose to do whatever you want. I dont think any less of you. I can only tell you what the bible says. One day we will come to account for our actions. Its sad the opinions generated here without fully studying. How can I discribe artwork to a person that has been blind their entire life? I pitty you Not for any sins committed but for not denying GOD. I am just as guilty of sin as everyone else. The difference is when that day comes where will you be.
Lets follow the No GOD Logic to conclusion. No GOD = no afterlife = what I do doesent matter = all sorts of evil. If i am not to be account able why should I care about any crime. Then what is a crime where does it come from.
Eric = Bob
Eric (or Bob?), your logic is faulty because a god is not necessary – for anything. I am 100% accountable to my family and the law to behave within the bounds of properly / legally established codes of conduct. I am way more concerned about not being able to provide for my family and causing them embarrassment by "poor" behaviour that might put me in jail, not to mention that I do not want to harm anyone else, than what a childhood imaginary friend (that has no (NONE!) factual evidence to support its existence) might think, or what a bunch of self-righteous babble thumpers might think.
Eric, your bible's commandments and laws do not keep believers from committing murder, ra pe, or robbery. That is why we have laws and courts. Therefore, your 'absolute morality' found in the bible is not effective as a deterrent. It isn't 'absolute' at all.
I'm hopeful Eric hasn't just run off. I'd like some answers to my questions from a person who thinks there is only one 'truth'.
""increasing effectiveness in treating same-s attraction threatened the movement"
It's stupid statements like this is why experts released this statement. Because of the aggressive promotion of efforts to change sexual orientation through therapy, a number of medical, health, and mental health professional organizations have issued public statements about the dangers of this approach. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
Of course the anti-gay movement people don't want to acknowledge that the experts throughout this country have proven these prejudice bigots WRONG! LMAO!
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