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My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage
The author backs same-sex marriage because of his faith, not in spite of it.
May 19th, 2012
02:00 AM ET

My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage

Editor's Note: Mark Osler is a Professor of Law at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

By Mark Osler, Special to CNN

I am a Christian, and I am in favor of gay marriage. The reason I am for gay marriage is because of my faith.

What I see in the Bible’s accounts of Jesus and his followers is an insistence that we don’t have the moral authority to deny others the blessing of holy institutions like baptism, communion, and marriage. God, through the Holy Spirit, infuses those moments with life, and it is not ours to either give or deny to others.

A clear instruction on this comes from Simon Peter, the “rock” on whom the church is built. Peter is a captivating figure in the Christian story. Jesus plucks him out of a fishing boat to become a disciple, and time and again he represents us all in learning at the feet of Christ.

During their time together, Peter is often naïve and clueless – he is a follower, constantly learning.

After Jesus is crucified, though, a different Peter emerges, one who is forceful and bold. This is the Peter we see in the Acts of the Apostles, during a fevered debate over whether or not Gentiles should be baptized. Peter was harshly criticized for even eating a meal with those who were uncircumcised; that is, those who did not follow the commands of the Old Testament.

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Peter, though, is strong in confronting those who would deny the sacrament of baptism to the Gentiles, and argues for an acceptance of believers who do not follow the circumcision rules of Leviticus (which is also where we find a condemnation of homosexuality).

His challenge is stark and stunning: Before ordering that the Gentiles be baptized Peter asks “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

None of us, Peter says, has the moral authority to deny baptism to those who seek it, even if they do not follow the ancient laws. It is the flooding love of the Holy Spirit, which fell over that entire crowd, sinners and saints alike, that directs otherwise.

My Take: Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality

It is not our place, it seems, to sort out who should be denied a bond with God and the Holy Spirit of the kind that we find through baptism, communion, and marriage. The water will flow where it will.

Intriguingly, this rule will apply whether we see homosexuality as a sin or not. The water is for all of us. We see the same thing at the Last Supper, as Jesus gives the bread and wine to all who are there—even to Peter, who Jesus said would deny him, and to Judas, who would betray him.

The question before us now is not whether homosexuality is a sin, but whether being gay should be a bar to baptism or communion or marriage.

Your Take: Rethinking the Bible on homosexuality

The answer is in the Bible. Peter and Jesus offer a strikingly inclusive form of love and engagement. They hold out the symbols of Gods’ love to all. How arrogant that we think it is ours to parse out stingily!

I worship at St. Stephens, an Episcopal church in Edina, Minnesota. There is a river that flows around the back and side of that church with a delightful name: Minnehaha Creek. That is where we do baptisms.

The Rector stands in the creek in his robes, the cool water coursing by his feet, and takes an infant into his arms and baptizes her with that same cool water. The congregation sits on the grassy bank and watches, a gentle army.

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At the bottom of the creek, in exactly that spot, is a floor of smooth pebbles. The water rushing by has rubbed off the rough edges, bit by bit, day by day. The pebbles have been transformed by that water into something new.

I suppose that, as Peter put it, someone could try to withhold the waters of baptism there. They could try to stop the river, to keep the water from some of the stones, like a child in the gutter building a barrier against the stream.

It won’t last, though. I would say this to those who would withhold the water of baptism, the joy of worship, or the bonds of marriage: You are less strong than the water, which will flow around you, find its path, and gently erode each wall you try to erect.

The redeeming power of that creek, and of the Holy Spirit, is relentless, making us all into something better and new.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Mark Osler.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Christianity • Episcopal • Gay marriage • Opinion

soundoff (15,115 Responses)
  1. Greg

    There is only one God(The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob-The Great I AM) and he is manifest in three distinct personages; God the Father who is the head and sits on the throne, The Son who is the creator of everything seen and unseen, the savior of mankind(the last sacrifice for sin) and redeemer of all the whole earth who is the only legitimate heir, and The Spirit who represents the very power of The Holy God. Without the blood of The Lamb of God(Jesus the Christ The Son of God) there is no covering of sin and God's wrath remains on a person. The end result of sin is death. All living flesh will die a physical death but the death from sin is spiritual.
    *Let those who have ears hear*

    August 6, 2012 at 12:02 pm |
    • JWT

      Your god's wrath does not exists on me.

      August 6, 2012 at 12:56 pm |
    • tallulah13

      There is no evidence to support the existence of any god.

      August 6, 2012 at 1:09 pm |
    • Greg

      Everything that has an end has a beginning.
      Everything that has a beginning has a "first cause".
      God who transcends time and the physical initiated life, the "first cause".
      How did it all begin, go back to the so called "big bang" and ask yourself, "Where did the gases come from?".
      It will always come back to a Creator.
      In Love

      August 6, 2012 at 3:33 pm |
    • tallulah13

      There is no evidence to support the existence of any god, not even yours.

      August 6, 2012 at 3:35 pm |
    • Greg

      Sounds like a broken record.
      tallulah13 I pose a Question for you.
      Where did the genetic material that life consists of come from?
      I ask any scientific minded intellectual to answer, if you can.

      August 6, 2012 at 3:47 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Greg

      The only reasonable answer:
      We don't know.

      August 6, 2012 at 3:51 pm |
    • Greg

      But can you accept sound reason and logic?

      Study "first cause". There is no way to refute it. You can only say that "existance" itself is the creator of life. By definition "existance" becomes god, so you will still come back to everything being created by god. The difference is "existance" is physical and so would be that god. Everything that is physical is dying. Again by definition God is not apart of the created (physical) but is the Every Living Creator.

      August 6, 2012 at 4:00 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Greg

      You are merely using your own definition of god for that "logic", which would be an equivocation fallacy. Also, I would not need to label existence anything, since it already has a label, and adding another would merely devalue both words. Also, you need to coherently state your entire argument instead of giving a small piece of whatever you're trying to say. Define "god", and "existence" as well.

      August 6, 2012 at 4:04 pm |
    • What IF

      Greg,
      "God is not apart of the created (physical) but is the Every Living Creator."

      Only in poetry and fantasy, not in fact.

      August 6, 2012 at 4:09 pm |
    • Greg

      Study "first cause".

      God is :
      the supreme or ultimate reality, perfect in power wisdom and goodness – Merriam Webster
      the creator and ruler of the universe, the source of all moral authority, superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature – Oxford Dictionary
      the one Supreme Being the creator and ruler of the universe – Dictionary.com

      Existence is the fact or state of existing and used by intellectuals to attempt to disprove "first cause" and to deny a God.

      August 6, 2012 at 4:17 pm |
    • Greg

      If you see a house on a deserted island, you know that someone built it. There is no need to prove it because the house is proof that there was a builder and so are you proof there is a Creator.

      August 6, 2012 at 4:22 pm |
    • Lorraine

      Greg, you were doing fine giving praise to the Creator YHWH up until you start giving His praise to another, this dose not please the King YHWH, not none at all. In Isaiah 44:24, and in Isaiah 45:7, and in Isaiah 42:8,9, one can learn just who your Creator is, YHWH knows all, YHWH does all. He needs no assistance from another. He, only He gives life, and He, only He can take it. praise YHWH. His real name YHWH is in the back of most books.

      August 6, 2012 at 4:29 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      According to first cause, existence creating itself would not equal to god, because it would not denote intelligence, nor would it necessitate any kind of moral authority to be attributed to it. By your own cited definitions of god, existence itself would not fit.
      Also, you are not citing a "first cause" argument, you're citing a variation of the Kalam cosmological argument for god.

      Now for the counterpoints.
      You have not demonstrated that a cause must in fact be intelligent, therefor you cannot say that this would prove an intelligent creation.
      The same holds true for ruling over anything.
      You have not demonstrated that a first cause is a necessity.
      You have not demonstrated that matter has any kind of end.

      I have more if you want them, but either way, your argument is flawed, and doesn't even fit your own definitions of "god".

      August 6, 2012 at 4:32 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Greg

      Ah the old watchmaker argument. Let us take another hypothetical, and see if you are consistent.

      A boy is born, and throughout his entire life, is told that all inland ponds are man-made, and sees them being made. One day, he comes across a pond that is naturally occuring, and so concludes that it is also man-made. He would be wrong, because we know how ponds can form inland on their own.

      Now, we know how planets form, and we know that complex amino acids are able to form spontaneously in the right conditions, and we also know that evolution happens, and can result in a myriad of organisms, and all through natural, unguided processes. There is no need to posit the existence of "god", for my own existence, especially when there is no evidence of such a being.

      August 6, 2012 at 4:39 pm |
    • Greg

      Hawaiiguest,
      You are right about existence and that is my point to others, there had to have been intelligence and even more than that it would have been personal. The argument of existence is used against "first cause".

      Kalam cosmological argument is a first cause argument. The fact that there is death of everything living, even seen in planets and stars, brings us back to a beginning. The when and how of the beginging is not important to this point. There was a beginning so there is Creator who is perfect in power and wisdom, having power over nature therefore everything is under submission to the One who has power over nature and by definition that is God.

      August 6, 2012 at 4:53 pm |
    • Robert

      "There was a beginning so there is Creator who is perfect in power and wisdom, having power over nature therefore everything is under submission to the One who has power over nature and by definition that is God."

      Using your logic since it couldn't have just existed what created your creator. ;-)

      August 6, 2012 at 4:55 pm |
    • Greg

      "form spontaneously"
      Nothing in nature forms without something already existing in another form. It will always go back to "first cause". If you say that the universe was formed by gases, where did the gases come from?

      August 6, 2012 at 4:58 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Greg

      None of those extra attributes is shown in Kalam at all. You have not addressed my points, and have merely restated an unjustified assertion as fact. Your argument is flawed, so either address it or drop it, otherwise you merely show your own dishonest style of conversation.

      August 6, 2012 at 4:58 pm |
    • Greg

      Robert,
      Good question. God is and always has been. No beginning and no end. Unlike the universe.

      August 6, 2012 at 4:59 pm |
    • Robert

      "God is and always has been. No beginning and no end. Unlike the universe."

      No, the universe has always been unlike your God, especially since your God was only created 2000 years ago. You have no proof of this assertion, especially since the bible is just opinion and not fact.

      August 6, 2012 at 5:03 pm |
    • Greg

      Hawaiiguest,
      Life is very complex and vey ordered. To the point that if there is just the smallest deviation all life is over. That took an "intelligent designer". I do like the watch argument, if you took apart a windup watch and threw all the parts in the air, how many tries would it take to make a complete watch again. You wouldn't, it would need to be re-created.

      August 6, 2012 at 5:07 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      The watchmaker argument is flawed in that equates something that does not occur in nature, and applies the logic of design and purpose onto nature in a very arbitrary way. Also, there's a distinction in the "fine tuning" argument that believers that use it ignore. If things were different, who's to say life wouldn't be different. We already know that life adapts to the environment around it, so unless you have another universe stashed away somewhere where one of the factors is different, and no life forms over billions of years, then you cannot say no life would exist.

      August 6, 2012 at 5:19 pm |
    • Greg

      The writings from Genesis date back to 1400 BC. Genesis is historical information that dates way before our first known writings. Even the most intellectual of the scientic community believe that there was a beginning to life.

      August 6, 2012 at 5:20 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Greg

      Genesis has also been shown to be a crock of shit.

      August 6, 2012 at 5:21 pm |
    • Smithsonian

      "The writings from Genesis date back to 1400 BC. Genesis is historical information that dates way before our first known writings. Even the most intellectual of the scientic community believe that there was a beginning to life."

      The stories found in the Book of Genesis, Chapter 1-12, such as the flood story, the record is quite different: the time period under consideration is much more ancient. The factual bases of the stories are hidden from our view archaeologically. The stories remain a part of folk traditions and were included in the Bible to illustrate and explain theological ideas such as: Where did humans come from? If humans were created by God (who is perfect and good), how did evil among them come to be? If we are all related as children of God, why do we speak different languages? It must be remembered that the Bible is primarily a book of religion, a guide to faith. it was not a book of history, poetry, economics, or science. It contains all sorts of literary genre, which are used to teach about the relationship between God and mankind. Even biblical history is edited history: events were chosen to illustrate the central theme of the Bible. The Biblical writers did not pretend they were giving a complete history; instead they constantly refer us to other sources for full historical details, sources such as "The Annals of the Kings of Judah" (or Israel).

      It is therefore not possible to try to "prove" the Bible by means of checking its historical or scientific accuracy. The only "proof" to which it can be subjected is this: Does it correctly portray the God-human relationship? In the best analysis, the Bible is a religious book, not an historical document.

      August 6, 2012 at 5:50 pm |
    • Greg

      Smithsonian,
      The books of the Bible are without a doubt historical and have been proven to be so by comparing to other historical records. The flood account is recorded in all ancients civilizations. Abraham had access to Noah's son Seth and other members of the family to record the flood account. David wrote many songs and poetry and they are quit beautiful in the original Hebrew. There were other books referenced by different authors and though they were not included into the Bible many are available to study. You are very misguided about the Bible and the information it includes.

      August 6, 2012 at 8:48 pm |
    • Greg

      For understanding, Abraham is not an author of any book in the bible but is the father of Israel and passed down the information that he received from the Patriarchs. Moses wrote Genesis.

      August 6, 2012 at 8:55 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "The books of the Bible are without a doubt historical and have been proven to be so by comparing to other historical records."

      You do know that the Smithsonian is the world's largest museum and research complex. Just because a book might reference things in history doesn't mean it's an historical document. Duh!

      August 7, 2012 at 3:07 pm |
  2. Susan

    1. Is being gay a sin?

    No. Sins are acts that separate us from God and keep us from loving our neighbors as ourselves. Being gay is not a sin. Bullying is a sin. Being hateful to other people is a sin. Putting yourself in the place of God to judge others is a sin. Being gay is not.

    2. What did Jesus say about gay people?

    Jesus said the same thing about gay people as he said about all people: God loves you beyond your wildest imagining and calls you to walk in love with God and with each other. He also said a whole lot about loving your neighbor, welcoming the stranger, embracing the outcast and ministering to the marginalized.

    3. Does the Bible really condemn homosexuality?

    The short answer is no; no it does not. The handful of passages in the Old and New Testaments that talk about God condemning specific sexual acts have nothing whatsoever to do with sexual orientation and everything to do with contexts such as cultic prostitution or gang rape. To put it another way, using the Bible as a handbook on human sexuality makes as much sense as using it as a handbook on astronomy. Just as those who wrote the Biblical texts had no concept of the science that would prove the earth actually revolves around the sun, so they had no concept of homosexuality (which wasn't defined until the 19th century.)

    4. How do I respond when people say "God hates "f–s"?

    First of all, God's nature is to love, not to hate. We believe that what God cares about is not our sexual orientation but our theological orientation - and that the question that matters is not "who do you love?" but "do you love?" Recognizing that homophobia causes some folks to project onto God their own fears, prejudices and biases against LGBT people, sometimes the best response is simply no response. It can be a challenge, but getting triggered by hate-mongers prevents us from being the change we want to see.

    5. I thought gay men and women weren't allowed to be priests?

    The Episcopal Church has been ordaining women to the priesthood since 1974 and we have women deacons, priests and bishops throughout the church - including two women bishops here in the Diocese of Los Angeles. When it comes to gay men in the priesthood, the issue is not homosexuality - it is honesty. The church has ordained gay men for centuries but finally the Episcopal Church added "sexual orientation" in the non-discrimination list in 1994 - ending our version of "don't ask/don't tell." Because the Episcopal Church allows for diversity of practice, the leadership of "out" LGBT and women clergy is more prevalent in some places than others. But the Diocese of Los Angeles is proud to have been in the forefront of inclusion.

    6. Can I still receive Communion in your church if I am gay?

    Of course you can. In many of our churches you will hear a variation on the invitation "whoever you are and wherever you find yourself on the journey of faith there is a place for you here." God's love is radically inclusive and so is the Episcopal Church.

    7. Despite what is happening legislatively, can my partner and I be married in the Episcopal Church yet?

    The only accurate answer to this question is "that depends." It depends on which diocese you're in and whether you're in a state that has civil marriage equality. For example, New York State is a marriage equality state. In four of the six dioceses clergy can both solemnize and bless a civil marriage and in one of them clergy can bless but not solemnize (a judge or justice of the peace has to do the civil marriage part). Here in Los Angeles clergy both blessed and solemnized same-sex marriages in 2008 when it was legal and our bishops have been in the forefront of working to overturn Prop 8 and get marriage equality back. As Facebook might put it: "it's complicated."

    8. What do I tell people when they say being gay is a sin and a choice?

    Tell them that Jesus said absolutely nothing about being gay but he said a lot of things about judging other people. Then tell them that while there is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation there IS consensus that sexuality is a continuum. So the "choice" is not to be gay, straight or somewhere in between - the "choice" is to build our own healthy relationships ... and give other people the grace to build theirs.

    9. Should I try to "pray away the gay?"

    No. If you need to pray away something, pray away homophobia. Homosexuality doesn't need healing. Homophobia does.

    10. How do I respond when politicians condemn my sexuality;citing their belief in the Bible?

    Remind them that the First Amendment protects them in believing whatever they want to about what God does or does not bless but it also prohibits them from using those beliefs to decide who the Constitution protects or doesn't protect. Tell them to stop confusing their theology with our democracy. And then campaign for and donate to their opponent in the next election cycle.

    August 6, 2012 at 11:59 am |
  3. Michael

    This one goes out to all you fundamentalist Christians out there. Selah! I may be too narrow addressing this to just the fundamentalists. Many traditional Christians also fit the bill. Really, it’s anyone who believes that homosexuality is a sin, and that somehow God, infinite and eternal creator and sustainer of the very Universe, is ‘against’ a tiny human behavior that harms no one. So, in other words, uneducated and ridiculous people everywhere.

    Officially, the majority of Christian churches say that homosexual behavior is a sin, thus proving that the theologians behind those churches don’t understand their own Bible. There are a whole bunch of goofball laws written down in the Old Testament that everyone ignores. Why is being bigoted toward homosexuals the one people latch onto?

    The various Christian brands go through the Old Testament, picking and choosing the parts they consider cool. No one accepts the whole thing. No one. I mean, when was the last time a cheating spouse was actually put to death in keeping with the commandments of the Bible?

    Using the Old Testament to determine if something is a sin is simply a matter of human and not godly opinion. It’s meaningless and certainly not ‘the word of God’. His teachings aren’t some basket of fruit for you to pick over. You either have to accept the old law in its entirety and start killing lots and lots of people or reject it in its entirety. Hand-picking the stuff you like is bogus, especially when you only pick the stuff that seems to legitimize your meanness to other people.

    So the Old Testament is out.

    Before we all start playing REM’s “Losing My Religion,” consider this denying someone the right to marry is not Christian, and certainly not American.

    The people who are opposed to gay marriage, and by extension, gayness itself have no excuse. They are bigots and bigots alone. They can’t use their special book to justify their hate, even according to the special book itself. They have no one to thank but themselves. They take the Lord’s name in vain and feel righteous about it

    Yes, they take the Lord’s name in vain. Most people believe incorrectly that this commandment is about cussing, but it’s not. It’s about using God for yourself, for your own vain (personal) ends. They hold the Bible in the air and use it like a bitch to bolster their own prejudices and bigotry and hate and that is vanity, all is vanity.

    The teachings of Christ are plain enough: love and forgiveness, tolerance and healing, acceptance and rebellion. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing more needed. Add what you will to it, it still won’t be from the Christ. It will come from your own (black?) heart.

    Jesus Christ is the origin of the word ‘Christian’. Perhaps we should pray about that a bit more.

    Today’s Christians tend to be followers, accepting of the notion that religion is just a box built by someone else into which they must stuff their spirit. They are naive and willingly line up like lemmings wherever told. They have a casual ignorance that tells them the Beast will come in the obvious guise of science or secularism or liberality. They cannot conceive of the Father of Lies actually lying to them.

    Sinclair Lewis said that when fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying the cross. When the Beast comes to the world, you can bet your sweet ass he will be thumping the Bible and preaching a hate disguised as love..

    August 6, 2012 at 11:57 am |
  4. JP

    Is homosexuality a sin?

    Self-indulgence is a sin. But the relationship of two people of the same sex may or may not be self-indulgent.

    Abusing the neighbor is a sin. But the exploration of relationships among homosexuals as they search for partners, evaluate their existing formative relationships, and relate to each other may or may not be abusive.

    Disobeying what God commands in the Bible is a sin. But, we have biblically-derived criteria for assessing and applying specific commands by reading them against larger themes.
    Turning your back on God is a sin. Homosexuals are often among those who have turned their back on the church, and may be sinning because they also rejected the God they found in church. The church needs to be in mission to homosexuals with the message of Jesus and who God really is.

    Yielding to your passions, even celebrating them is a sin. Homosexuals do include those who have done this. But it is not an inherent aspect of being gay.

    Since we see people who have dedicated themselves to God, and for whom their gay sexual life is integrated into that decision and we see that their sexuality does not draw them away from church we must conclude that being and living gay is not a behavior in and of itself that produces pain to the neighbor and leads one away from God.

    By the criteria the scripture sets for us for what is godly life, and by the reasoning scripture asks us to employ, homosexuality cannot be described as against God’s law.

    If this seems like a rather quiet sort of justification for homosexuality, then perhaps it is because the grand clichés of this debate have been shouted at us for too long. But look at the Bible: it's demands and vision cut across all categories, not staying on the surface but penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart, rejecting all forms of self-justification, all forms of attack on the "other" and all forms of escape from God's assessment of our behavior. How on earth could we have ever thought that a series of flat rules was all God wanted to tell us on morality ?

    August 6, 2012 at 11:49 am |
  5. Greg

    There is only one God(The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob-The Great I AM) and he is manifest in three distinct personages; God the Father who is the head and sits on the throne, The Son who is the creator of everything seen and unseen, the savior of mankind(the last sacrifice for sin) and redeemer of all the whole earth who is the only legitimate heir, and The Spirit who represents the very power of The Holy God. Without the blood of The Lamb of God(Jesus the Christ The Son of God) there is no covering of sin and God's wrath remains on a person. The end result of sin is death. All living flesh will die a physical death but the death from sin is spiritual.
    Let those who have ears hear

    August 6, 2012 at 11:49 am |
    • Lorraine

      Greg, Again, you were doing just fine giving praise to the Creator YHWH up until you start giving His praise to another, this dose not please the King YHWH, not none at all. In Isaiah 44:24, and in Isaiah 45:7, and in Isaiah 42:8,9, one can learn from these scriptures alone just who your Creator is. He, YHWH knows all, and YHWH does all, and lets us know this all through the real name of this book, 'the book of remembrance' in Malachi 3:16. He needs no assistance from another. This would be contradictory to say that another had to do anything to complete salvation for life, when YHWH is the only creator, savior, and redeemer of life, taught to us in Isaiah 49:26, and in Isaiah 60:16. He, and only He gives life, and He, and only He can take it. Praise YHWH.

      His real name YHWH is in the back of many of the so called bible books, and was wrongfully removed 6800 times. Read Genesis – Malachi, study, pray, and do the law as said in Malachi 4:4.

      August 7, 2012 at 10:23 am |
  6. Jeannine

    The Scriptures were written approximately 2000 or more years ago when there was no knowledge of constitutional homosexuality. The Scripture writers believed that all people were naturally heterosexual so that they viewed homosexuality activity as unnatural. Women today are pointing out that the inferiority of women expressed in the scriptures was a product of culture and the times in which the Bible was written; it should not be followed today, now that we are beginning to appreciate the natural and God-given equality of men and women.

    Similarly, as we know that homosexuality is just as natural and God-given as heterosexuality, we realize that the Biblical injunctions against homosexuality were conditioned by the attitudes and beliefs about this form of sexual expression which were held by people without benefit of centuries of scientific knowledge and understanding.

    It is unfair of us to expect or impose a twentieth century mentality and understanding about equality of genders, races and sexual orientations on the Biblical writers . We must be able to distinguish the eternal truths the Bible is meant to convey from the cultural forms and attitudes expressed there.

    August 6, 2012 at 11:49 am |
  7. John

    Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.

    Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.

    There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.

    Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.

    Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?

    Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).

    That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex,.

    August 6, 2012 at 11:47 am |
    • Ray

      John, we already discussed how sinners want to change God's rule to the traditions of man's rule. Changing God's rules only ensures folks don't know his rules any longer and won't be spending eternity with him.

      August 6, 2012 at 11:56 am |
    • James

      "John, we already discussed how sinners want to change God's rule to the traditions of man's rule. Changing God's rules only ensures folks don't know his rules any longer and won't be spending eternity with him."

      The scriptures actually say nothing about homosexuality as a psychosexual orientation. Our understandings of sexual orientation are distinctly modern ones that were not present in the minds of Scripture writers. A few passages of Scripture (seven at the most) object to certain types of same-sex expressions or acts. The particular acts in question, however, are sexual expressions which are exploitative, oppressive, commercialized, or offensive to ancient purity rituals. There is no Scriptural guidance for same-sex relationships which are loving and mutually respecting. Guidelines for these relationships should come from the same general Scriptural norms that apply to heterosexual relationships.

      August 6, 2012 at 12:10 pm |
    • Spoc

      The bible clearly decribes g-ay life as s-in.....stop being so manipulative and stupid.

      August 6, 2012 at 4:34 pm |
    • Janet

      "The bible clearly decribes g-ay life as s-in.....stop being so manipulative and stupid."

      The Biblical condemnation of homosexuality is based on human ignorance, suspicion of those who are different, and an overwhelming concern for ensuring the survival of the people. Since the Bible regards homosexuality as a capital crime, it clearly assumes that homosexuality is a matter of free choice, a deliberate rebellion against God. We have learned from modern science that people do not choose to be gay or straight; hence it is neither logical nor moral to condemn those whose nature it is to be gay or lesbian.

      August 6, 2012 at 4:49 pm |
    • Paul

      "The bible clearly decribes g-ay life as s-in.....stop being so manipulative and stupid."

      Being gay is not a crime and it is not a sin. Stop using God to justify your prejudice. Religion is about Loving one another. You're just looking for an excuse to hate

      August 6, 2012 at 4:52 pm |
  8. Lorraine

    Bob, I missed your last post to me, but yes this new covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-36, is the written law began with Moses, this prophecy is already in process, it is the same law, only now many can pick up this book and read, and study, pray, and do the law for themselves, all will know who YHWH is in the time that He is giving us to learn Him, YHWHs time. This book is distributed all over the world, in over 2000, languages, and who do you think did this? YHWH of course, for He knows all.

    He even knew that His enemies who are still here today, thinking that they will take charge of this world in the end, would twist, and change some things in this book. Therefore, YHWH has raised up many of His anointed, and the truth is awakening in many of His spirit. It's funny how the enemy fools the flocks, but they have the definition of YHWH in the back of most of these books, for they dread Him, even more than His flocks do, as He said in Malachi 1:14. They know the truth, but this is a spiritual war, they challenge YHWH with His flocks,as told to us in Ezekiel 34.

    Taking us away from YHWH with these delusional idols not of the fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, taught to us in Daniel 11:39-45, strange gods are with us today. All of the scriptures that you have posted from the OT, are describing the 'seed of David' from which the servant is 'conceived'. You call jc the savior, then you have dispelled YHWH as the Savior, and Redeemer, He teaches us this in Isaiah 49:26, and Isaiah 60:16, and other scriptures. YHWH is who created life, and this is the brainwash here, for as He gives it, only He YHWH can take it. There is no one else, as said in Isaiah 43, and preferably, Isaiah 43:11-15. Again, no one can die for another man's sin, in Ezekiel 14:14-21, YHWH is not contrary, to then turn around and say that a man will die for us, think, reason, people. Praise in the most high YHWH, and YHWH Bless.

    August 6, 2012 at 10:24 am |
    • Lorraine

      I Forgot to put the proof, the confirmation of the new covenant, it is in Deuteronomy 5, preferably Deut.5:1-3, until this day, this was not the law with our fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, they all knew the law without it written, they spoke to YHWH often in those days, as in Genesis 26:5, for this law is now a written law, a new covenant to keep with us, to consult on our own now, from the days of Moses until today, YHWHs time is not for us to know when He will decide what He will do for us what He says He will do, through this book of remembrance soon. It is but a little while now as prophesied in Isaiah 10:25.

      August 6, 2012 at 10:57 am |
  9. Bob

    The face of the Lord was sorrowful, and His eyes were filled with great tenderness and deep love. Though those in hell were forever lost, I knew that He still loved them and would for all eternity.
    "My child," He said, "God, our Father, gave each one of us a will so that we could choose whether we would serve Him or Satan. You see, God did not make hell for His people. Satan deceives many into following him, but hell was made for Satan and his angels. It is not My desire, nor that of My Father, that anyone should perish." Tears of compassion ran down Jesus' cheeks.
    He began to speak again, "Remember My words in the days ahead as I show you hell. I have all power in heaven and earth.' Now, at times it will seem to you that I have left you, but I have not. Also, at times we will be seen by the evil forces and lost souls, while at other times we will not be. No matter where we go, be at peace and fear not to follow Me.
    We went on together. I followed closely behind Him crying. For days I had been crying, and I could not shake off the very presence of hell which was ever before me. I cried mostly inside. My spirit was very sad.
    We arrived at the right leg of hell. Looking ahead, I saw that we were on a pathway which was dry and burned. Screams filled the dirty air, and the stench of death was everywhere. The odor was sometimes so repugnant that it made me sick to my stomach. Everywhere was darkness except for the light which emanated from Christ and the flaming pits, which dotted the landscape as far as I could see
    All at once, demons of all kinds were going past us. Imps growled at us as they went by. Demon spirits of all sizes and shapes were talking to each other. Out ahead of us, a big demon was giving orders to small ones. We stopped to listen, and Jesus said, "There is also an invisible army of evil forces that we do not see here-demons such as evil spirits of sickness.
    "Go!" the larger demon said to the smaller imps and devils.
    "Do many evil things. Break up homes and destroy families. Seduce weak Christians, and mis-instruct and mislead as many as you can. You shall have your reward when you return. Remember, you must be careful of those who have genuinely accepted Jesus as their Savior. They have the power to cast you out. Go now across the earth. I have lots of others up there already and still have others to send. Remember, we are servants of the prince of darkness and of the powers of the air. At that, the evil forms began to flee up and out of hell. Doors in the top of the right leg of hell opened and shut very fast to let them out. Also, some went up and out the funnel we had come down.

    August 5, 2012 at 5:38 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Bob, you really need to reconsider your sources.

      Surely you can do better than Mary K. Baxter, a woman who claims divine revelation in order to sell books.

      August 5, 2012 at 5:46 pm |
    • Dinah

      Mary K. left out the Bandersn'atch and the Queen of Hearts!

      And where are the Borg?... and Jabba the Hut? In some other of her dime novels, I guess?

      August 5, 2012 at 6:01 pm |
    • Douglas

      Bob,

      Good work. I understand your intent completely.
      Jesus spoke in parables to help common folk better comprehend complex Biblical precepts.
      If we keep explaining, with love, the error of the sinner who keeps doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result, eventually we will break through.
      The conflict within GLNTQ folks is natural. They struggle with truth in the most fundamental of ways.
      GLBTQ folks need allies to help them break free from the chains of fornication that bind so many.

      Keep up the good work. You will have stimulated the discussion and that is the first step in GLBTQ folks
      crossing the great divide and coming back home.

      Yours in Christ,
      Douglas

      August 5, 2012 at 9:32 pm |
    • Lorraine

      Bob, while you are caught up in the god spell=the good spell, a trance, talking about demons,ghost,satan,etc. Who do you think got grace, and mercy for us? I know you probably said jc, but read again. Read in Exodus 32, and 33, you will discover that it was Moses who asked for it from YHWH. The church, and religions don't teach this truth, they are not of YHWH. You say jc fulfilled the prophecy, how is this when we have for 2000 years, doing jc, and until now are getting worst in this world, reason for yourself, something is not right here, its an idol not of YHWH. In Hosea 6:1,2 YHWH told this prophet that He would be back around in this time, there is no exact date, but His righteousness is near as taught in Isaiah 51:5. To get it straight as He prophesied in Isaiah 34:8

      August 6, 2012 at 10:41 am |
    • YeahRight

      "The conflict within GLNTQ folks is natural. They struggle with truth in the most fundamental of ways.
      GLBTQ folks need allies to help them break free from the chains of fornication that bind so many."

      You are such a liar. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      August 6, 2012 at 11:46 am |
    • Robert

      Ms Baxter is the Anti Christ! First of all, and foremost: If "Jesus" had really appeared to Ms. Baxter, He would have told her in no uncertain terms to use His real, given Name of Y'shua, and then He would have told her to tell the world to be Torah observant – not given her a trip to heaven and hell so she could tell the world the "truth". After all, WE are to accept YHWH and Y'shua by FAITH!

      I'm sure this woman who is coming from some Christian perspective that teaches only the last THIRD of the Bible, is deep into doing Christmas and Easter as well, and that she has no clue about the Biblical Feasts, etc. Is someone like that to be trusted to tell YHWH's Truth? I don't think so! I'm sorry, but "Jesus" doesn't give somebody like her, who is steeped in paganism, "divine revelations" outside the Bible, nor would He promise to bless a book she is going to write – which, with its "new" revelations, render moot God's Word which tells us everything we need to know. If He did indeed "bless her book," then we will have to assume that the "Book of Mormon" is blessed as well....Never mind that in the end of the Book of Revelation we are strictly warned that anything added to or subtracted from its prophecies would be a death knell! Baxter's books add to the Bible, because they talk of things that cannot be verified in the Bible (Deuteronomy 4:2, Deuteronomy 4:2, Deuteronomy 12:32, Proverbs 30:5-6, Revelation 22:18-19)!

      Also please think about this: Although the word "rapture" is found nowhere in the Scriptures, we are told there will be a "catching up" of believers only upon Yeshua's Second Coming (1 Corinthians 6:14; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17); not of the unbelievers who will only be called up before God on Judgment Day at the end of the Millennium. This "catching up" will be when Yeshua returns to Earth; not before. It will occur at the end of that seven year period which will begin when the Antichrist makes a seven year peace treaty with Israel.

      Furthermore, how could Ms. Baxter have smelled "burning flesh" in hell? According to the Bible, when we die, we end up the grave, not in hell. Our spirit bodies will end up in hell, but not our flesh. I challenge you to find anywhere in the Bible a scripture that says our FLESH will end up in hell...Dig up any grave, and people are still in there, complete with their decaying bones and flesh.

      August 6, 2012 at 11:54 am |
  10. Lorraine

    PRISM1234, Where does it say that in the so called OT without jc we are lost? I think you are confusing this idol with the Creator YHWH, in Isaiah 43:13, He says that No Man Can Be Delivered From Out of His Hands, not jc. And satan no he doesn't have any problem with religion he made it, in Deut. 32:17 where Moses warns us of them, and strange gods, so does Daniel 11:39-45. Get out of the gospel=good spell, a trance.

    August 5, 2012 at 2:53 pm |
  11. Lorraine

    Jwt, look lets call it a truce, I have said that this is your choice for which I do respect, but it seems that you want me to respect your decision, yet,you want to dump on mine. But, again I'll say I applaud you having your opinion, and let me have mines, if you will, YHWH Bless.

    August 5, 2012 at 1:04 pm |
    • JWT

      As long as you keep me out of your god – if theat is possible for you, fine. But saying that we are in denial for not believing in your version of your god – not a truce honey.

      August 5, 2012 at 2:08 pm |
    • Bob

      JWT
      No one is surrendering their belief for you,, you are still going to burn in hell if you don't accept Jesus no way around it and no matter what Lorraine says you are not off the hook and yes spoken like a true Christian not out of hate but the truth

      August 5, 2012 at 2:54 pm |
    • JWT

      Your god and your view of your god is a truth only for you bob, nothing of your god nor lorraines god applies to anyone else. Each person muct find their own truth in life. Your god is unfit to be worshipped. It lives in your mind with idle threats.

      August 5, 2012 at 4:06 pm |
    • Bob

      JWT
      At least you hope so I would too, but there is always this little nagging what if they are right???

      August 5, 2012 at 5:21 pm |
    • Bob

      I was so thankful for the protection of Jesus. I thank God for His almighty power to protect us, even in the pits of hell. Even with that protecting shield, I kept thinking, Not my will, Father, but Yours be done.I looked at my body. For the first time I noticed that I was in a spirit form, and my form was in the shape of myself. I wondered what was next.
      Jesus and I stepped from the tunnel onto a path with wide swaths of land on each side of it. There were pits of fire everywhere as far as the eye could see. The pits were four feet across and three feet deep and shaped like a bowl. Jesus said, "There are many pits like this in the left leg of hell. Come, I will show you some of them
      I stood beside Jesus on the path and looked into one of the pits. Brimstone was embedded in the side of the pit and glowed red like hot coals of fire. In the center of the pit was a lost soul who had died and gone to hell. Fire began at the bottom of the pit, swept upward and clothed the lost soul in flames. In a moment the fire would die down to embers, then with a rushing sound would sweep back over the tormented soul in the pit
      I looked and saw that the lost soul in the pit was caged inside a skeleton form. "My Lord," I cried at the sight, "Can't you let them out?" How awful was the sight! I thought, This could be me. I said, "Lord, how sad it is to see and know that a living soul is in there.I heard a cry from the center of the first pit. I saw a soul in the form of a skeleton, crying, "Jesus, have mercy!"
      "O, Lord!" I said. It was the voice of a woman. I looked at her and wanted to pull her out of the fire. The sight of her broke my heart The skeleton form of a woman with a dirty-grey mist inside was talking to Jesus. In shock, I listened to her. Decayed flesh hung by shreds from her bones, and, as it burned, it fell off into the bottom of the pit. Where her eyes had once been were now only empty sockets. She had no hair
      The fire started at her feet in small flames and grew as it climbed up and over her body. The woman seemed to be constantly burning, even when the flames were only embers. From deep down inside her came cries and groans of despair, "Lord, Lord, I want out of here! She kept reaching out to Jesus. I looked at Jesus, and there was great sorrow on His face. Jesus said to me, "My child, you are here with Me to let the world know that sin results in death, that hell is real
      I looked at the woman again, and worms were crawling out of the bones of her skeleton. They were not harmed by the fire. Jesus said, "She knows and feels those worms inside.
      "God, have mercy!" I cried as the fire reached its peak and the horrible burning started all over again. Great cries and deep sobs shook the form of this woman-soul. She was lost. There was no way out. "Jesus, why is she here?" I said in a small voice, for I was very scared.

      August 5, 2012 at 5:27 pm |
    • JWT

      No bobby there is never any little nagging at all.

      August 5, 2012 at 8:22 pm |
    • tallulah13

      More Mary K Baxter, Bob? How much money do you shell out to these con artists? Why can't you quote a single credible source? Hmm. Maybe you don't have one.

      August 6, 2012 at 1:12 pm |
  12. Douglas

    A lesbian couple has joined our prayer group and have pledged to strive for celib@cy!
    This is good news that will soon be spreading across the country as gays and lesbians break
    free from the chains of fornication. They have been delivered. Thanks for your prayers and support!

    Best, Douglas

    August 5, 2012 at 12:22 am |
    • YeahRight

      "A lesbian couple has joined our prayer group and have pledged to strive for celib@cy!"

      Don't listen to this loveless pathetic bigot. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      August 6, 2012 at 11:56 am |
  13. Lorraine

    But all this the lies, the misleading the flocks, the profaning of His true name will magnify YHWH, this is why He allowed it. His righteousness is near, Isaiah 51:5, and His vengeance will be done in Isaiah 34:8, in His day of return, oh yes it will be the return of the King YHWH, no one else as He teaches us in Isaiah 43. He YHWH is the only Redeemer, and Savior, in Isaiah 49:26, Isaah 60:16.

    August 5, 2012 at 12:10 am |
    • PRISM 1234

      Lorraine, without Jesus Christ you are totally LOST. You can not approach YHWH without Christ's blood applied to your soul. Satan has no problem with any religion, in fact he inspires it, promotes it and supports it, so long he can disregard Jesus Christ and who He really is. Because he knows that without Christ every soul is lost and he can claim it for himself! That's where you are, regardless of all your hoopla about your spiritual "insight" ..That's just the way it is, friend!

      August 5, 2012 at 1:35 pm |
    • Lorraine

      Bob, while you are caught up in the god spell=the good spell, a trance, talking about demons,ghost,satan,etc. Who do you think got grace, and mercy for us? I know you probably said jc, but read again. Read in Exodus 32, and 33, you will discover that it was Moses who asked for it from YHWH. The church, and religions don't teach this truth, they are not of YHWH. You say jc fulfilled the prophecy, how is this when we have for 2000 years, doing jc, and until now are getting worst in this world, reason for yourself, something is not right here, its an idol not of YHWH. In Hosea 6:1,2 YHWH told this prophet that He would be back around in this time, after these 2000 years of sufferings, there is no exact date, but His righteousness is near as taught in Isaiah 51:5. To get it straight as He prophesied in Isaiah 34:8

      August 6, 2012 at 10:45 am |
  14. Lorraine

    Bob, this law, the new covenant began with Moses writing the law in a book for the people in order for the people to have immediate access to the law. Before they all had to depend on the high priest, but when this book was finished the people could now read, and do the law for themselves, although still following the priest, this the book was an assurance that all will have no excuse to say that they did not know YHWH, and is what the 'new covenant' means.

    There is no mentioning of any part of the story of jc in the so called OT, nor mary, nowhere in the OT, and the NT should fulfill the OT, but it doesn't.YHWH tells us in Isaiah 40, not to liken, or equal, or compare anyone with Him, and in Isaiah 44:24, He lets us know that He did, and does all things alone. Again, I'll say in Ezekiel 14:14-21, YHWH teaches that no man can die for another man's sins, so why would He turn around in the NT and say a man does do this.

    YHWH is not contrary, YHWH changes not in Malachi 3:6. Then remember in Exodus 4:22,23 YHWH says who His son, and firstborn is, and it is "Israel" the chosen people. And this is expressed all through the OT book from Genesis – Malachi. Jacob, Judah, Israel, Jerusalem, the chosen the seed of David the one that will work for YHWH along with the Levites in Jeremiah 23:1-8, and Jeremiah 33:14-21, all called YHWH Our Righteousness, the Arm, the Branch of YHWH His Movement.

    It is in progress now every since the bombing in Lebanon in 2006, it was raised to the public. The book of Daniel explans this whole thing of the end times, and the vision, of the 4th kingdom, that is now, how the government, and religions, all are false according to Daniel they are strange gods not known to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, also said by Moses in Deut.32:17, all warned the people that the future generations will follow. Then you have many books in the OT telling us that we have been mislead by this NT all by the priest, pastors, popes, and elders, all confirmed in Ezekiel 34.

    August 4, 2012 at 11:48 pm |
    • Lorraine

      Bob, people are awakening to the truth, prophesied in Daniel 12:1-4, this is the true resurrection coming out of darkness, into the light, with eyes open. We are to prolong our lives as taught in Deut. 30, 32, and in Isaiah 53:10, this servant from the seed of David will 'prolong' his life, this is not how jc is portrayed in the nt, this servant will eventually die, and his seeds will reign in his place, This is real life. In Isaiah 53:12 it reads that this same servant has done the same sins as others did, this does not sound like jc, they said he did no wrong in the nt. This servant once he finds his seed he does a 360, and do the work, be the intercessor for YHWH, there are many scriptures where YHWH says he will convert this servant, for he has the heart of David, whose 'seed' YHWH chose, and people need to read Genesis – Malachi to know the truth.

      August 4, 2012 at 11:59 pm |
    • Bob

      LORRAINE
      As we read the Old Testament we see Jesus represented in all the books of the bible. Even the temple pillars that the Lord gave specific metals and woods to use represent Christ and His redeeming works. Even when Moses was commanded to strike the rock or speak to the rock we have a foreshadowing of Christ. I will ask you this why didn't Moses go into the promised land??? If you can answer that you will have a revelation. Below are just a couple of passages that talk about Christ if you will notice Isa 42:9 "Behold, the former things have come to pass, Now I declare new things God has in fact Himself declare that there are new things coming in speaking about Christ. This coming of Christ was described by the prophet Zechariah, Zec_9:9. When Christ would appear in his glory, it is in his meekness, not in his majesty, in mercy to work salvation
      The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."
      Psa 110:2 The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying, "Rule in the midst of Your enemies."
      Psa 110:3 Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power; In holy array, from the womb of the dawn, Your youth are to You as the dew.
      Psa 110:4 The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."
      Psa 110:5 The Lord is at Your right hand; He will shatter kings in the day of His wrath.
      Psa 110:6 He will judge among the nations, He will fill them with corpses, He will shatter the chief men over a broad country.
      Psa 110:7 He will drink from the brook by the wayside; Therefore He will lift up His head.
      Heb 6:19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil,
      Heb 6:20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
      Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.
      Isa 42:2 "He will not cry out or raise His voice, Nor make His voice heard in the street.
      Isa 42:3 "A bruised reed He will not break And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice.
      Isa 42:4 "He will not be disheartened or crushed Until He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law."
      Isa 42:5 Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on it And spirit to those who walk in it,
      Isa 42:6 "I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations,
      Isa 42:7 To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon And those who dwell in darkness from the prison.
      Isa 42:8 "I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.
      Isa 42:9 "Behold, the former things have come to pass, Now I declare new things; Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you."
      Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king is coming to you; He is just and endowed with salvation, Humble, and mounted on a donkey, Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
      Zec 9:10 I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim And the horse from Jerusalem; And the bow of war will be cut off. And He will speak peace to the nations; And His dominion will be from sea to sea, And from the River to the ends of the earth.

      August 5, 2012 at 10:52 am |
    • Lorraine

      Bob, many people who are in the NT learn to assume what they just want to 'believe' instead of 'Knowing' the truth. Now you know that none of those scriptures in the OT tells, or say to us Christ, nor jesus, they either say the 'seed' of David, or the servant, the elect, and none of them are saying exactly who this will be, or is. The scripture do tell us that he will be from the 'seed' of David, YHWHs chosen, and that he will come out of Judah (Yhwhudah), in Micah 5:1,2. That is all, and in Jeremiah 23:1-8, it says that 'he' shall be called, YHWH(The Lord) Our Righteousness. And, in Zech.9:9, this must be discerned because there is only 1 King, and this is YHWH as He tells us in Malachi 1:14, this is a spin off from the enemy misleading the people. And if you read over in I and II Samuel David rode an ass, many did in these days. Know this that messiah, and christ only means 'anointed' many were, and are today anointed, all the prophets were anointed, and in Num. 22:28, a jack ass was anointed by YHWH to talk to Balaam, this is the spirit of the Most High YHWH. Praise YHWH.

      Again, this servant is to work (for) YHWH, along with the high priest the Levites, in Jeremiah 33:14-21, there is not just one here, there will be many upon the throne (metaphor), to work for YHWH as also taught in Isaiah 40:10,13,14, YHWH counsels him. The scripture in Psalm 110:1, many get this wrong, for the enemy is cunning, ask yourself why would YHWH say lord to His 'servant?' this is a spin off. And this does not say jesus either, christians just assume this, and there is no specific name in any of these scriptures, are you people even reading this book? Get out of the godspel=good spell, a trance. Many are awakening as Daniel 12:1-4, prophesied we would. Daniel a servant of YHWH, also prophesied that there will be strange gods in this generation, Daniel 1139-45, take heed.

      August 5, 2012 at 1:39 pm |
    • Bob

      Lorranine Jesus fulfilled every prophecy told that the Messiah would. So Gods people along with the miracles would know Him as Messiah. His name is Lord Jesus Christ Jesus means Savior and Christ the anointed one. as you said.

      August 5, 2012 at 4:12 pm |
  15. Lorraine

    B.N.Dunn YHWH is not judgmental, He is very merciful, and gives us grace, and His hand is always stretched out for us to come to Him, and get it right, in Isaiah 9:12,17. He only ask that we do the law of righteousness, the 10 commandments. This is the law to have peace for all. Man is who says all these persecuting statements, not YHWH. But, if you are just plain wicked, well you will perish, otherwise in Isaiah 55:6-13, YHWH will give us salvation if we want it.

    August 4, 2012 at 11:07 pm |
  16. PRISM 1234

    Lorraine, where does Yeshua, Jesus Christ fits in your theology. What does His sacrifice on the cross mean to you?

    August 4, 2012 at 8:49 pm |
    • Lorraine

      The only son, and firstborn that the Creator of all life says He has is "Israel" Yisrael) in Exodus 4:22,23. All praise goes to YHWH. This is 'no religion' from Genesis – Malachi there is no mention of church, or religion these are all idolatry to YHWH. Prophesied in Daniel 11:39-45, of christianity, and of islam. KJV 1611.

      The sacrifces are stopped because of in Malachi 1:6-14. The sacrifice will return when the third temple is built, prophesied in Haggai 2, this is a future prophecy. Also, said in Jeremiah 31:37-40.

      August 4, 2012 at 11:22 pm |
    • PRISM 1234

      Wow, Lorraine, you must have gotten a revelation! What do you call your cult?

      August 5, 2012 at 12:31 am |
    • Lorraine

      No cult, no group, just the plain old 'Truth' I read Genesis – Malachi, the last prophet until this day, 'look it up' for myself, and I learn that YHWH is alone, and His spirit does all this for His own sake, for He is the King, and Creator of all life, there is none else, in Isaiah 44:22, He forgave our sins and in Isaiah 43:25,26, then in Isaiah 44:6,8, there is no other, and in Isaiah 44:24, YHWH did all creation alone, then in Isaiah 43, He specifically teaches us that there is no other savior but Him, YHWH. In Isaiah 45:7, He magnifies Himself of all this He has, and will do.

      Get out of the god spell=a good spell, a trance, the NT=not true, formed by the enemies of YHWH, taught to us in Exodus 17:14-16, from generation, to generation, and Psalm 83, to mislead the flocks, confirmed in Ezekiel 34. And in Ezekiel 14:14-21, we are taught that no man can die for another man sins. We are all responsible for our own righteousness. And, remember nothing changes with YHWH, in Malachi 3:6. Praise the most high YHWH.

      August 7, 2012 at 10:48 am |
  17. Lorraine

    JWT, and Frayed, if you would read the OT, you would get it. The truh that is. Or, maybe not, there has to be a light within the soul, sorry. There is proof, as I've said there was a David, a Solomon, and a Cyrus the Great, all are in our world history,(proof), and all are in this book of remembrace, the OT, you guys are just in denial of the truth, and bitter.

    August 4, 2012 at 7:23 pm |
    • JWT

      Now who is being silly ? You are back to insisting that we must believe – this is just not true. Your god is your thing, I have read OT adn the NT – nothing there. Your statement that there is somethign wrogn with is is just downright insulting. We are not included in your fantasies.

      August 4, 2012 at 9:16 pm |
  18. Had enough!

    You are wrong1 God of the Universe has right to do what He pleases. It is you who has no right to demand your "rights" to change God's laws which He gave to humanity to sustain every sane civilization! you are washed out, all you have is your silly temper tantrums so just go back to your closet, do you thing, and keep your STDs to yourself.

    August 4, 2012 at 7:14 pm |
    • Lorraine

      You tell em, bravo for you, these folks just want to do any indignant thing one can think of. Just plain perversion, and just for the record jwt, I only did name calling when it was done to me, and at least I kept it clean this is a christian site, have some respect at least. That OG-guy was outrages. Again, yeah for you Had enough!

      August 4, 2012 at 7:37 pm |
    • B.N. Dunn

      If free will is God-given right then gay marriage is 1. There is a different btwn God-given right & a sin. Even you, you are a sinner and when it comes to me as a human being to pinpoint your sins and then deprive you of your rights, it becomes a violation of fundamental human rights. God judges the sin and human being judges the violation of human rights and a clear line should be between the two. Read this and get insight: http://bookstore.westbowpress.com/Products/SKU-000557583/The-Reality-Of-Our-Chemical-Composition-And-Our-Spirituality.aspx

      August 4, 2012 at 8:10 pm |
    • Bob

      Dunn so would you want to marry your sister or brother or maybe first cousin its not a fundamental right to let perversion multiply. So in your thinking we should also let peds marry who they want also.

      August 5, 2012 at 9:17 am |
    • YeahRight

      "undamental right to let perversion multiply. So in your thinking we should also let peds marry who they want also."

      This is where this posters hate and bigotry come out. Being gay is not a perversion and pedophiles harm children especially since children can't consent. Duh! Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      August 6, 2012 at 2:23 pm |
  19. JWT

    Lying about what ?

    August 4, 2012 at 7:33 am |
    • Lorraine

      JWT, you have done some name calling in the past, but, mostly you have been expressing your opinion,yet, with you personally it seem to be very bothersome, or annoying my post for you. And, as you have been given a choice to express your opinion, I too have that option But if someone was irritating me as much as my post do you, then why bother to reply?, is all I'm saying. I will continue to express the love, and truth of YHWH, and its your choice to continue to reply, its alright to me. YHWH Bless. I think that others are upset such as OG-No goblins blah,blah, this guy, and hawii, lost it over my post. Oh boy.

      August 4, 2012 at 1:29 pm |
    • JWT

      And I will happily express that you do more nme callign than I can ever dream of.

      Also your fantasy god – just remember that it is yours and not mine, do nto include me in it's ramblimgs and none of them apply. All I said was your are psychotic of you believe that anythign about it apply to me, whoch is as true today as it always was.

      August 4, 2012 at 1:34 pm |
    • JWT

      The point is lorraine that I have not lied at all not even once. Your statement that I lie is a lie.

      PS Don't forget the threats you make on behalf of your god if we do not believe – such gods are unworthy of existance.

      August 4, 2012 at 1:37 pm |
    • Lorraine

      JWT, this your opinion to have, I applaud you, but I will continue to support the righteousness of YHWH, and according to Him this is for all people in the world in Isaiah 56, whether you see it or not, or want it or not, ok that is your choice. But, my post are not personally talking to you, but if one is interested the Word is for anyone if they do want it, it the law is for all.

      August 4, 2012 at 3:51 pm |
    • Eric

      JWT, Ill keep it short and try a parallel. People have children when the children do not follow their parents rules what happens to them. They get punished or worse, hurt sick you get the point. Why do parents set rules for their children? To keep them from harm and help them prosper.

      Now we are all GODs children he has rules for us.

      To answer another question Why did GOD create us into suffering. I would ask Why do people have children? The parents know the child will die, suffer pain, illness trama, but they still have children.

      August 4, 2012 at 3:55 pm |
    • JWT

      There are no gods eric.

      Lor – the laws of your god are not for all.

      August 4, 2012 at 3:58 pm |
    • A Frayed Knot

      Eric,

      I don't fry my kids for eternity because they don't believe something that some guy(s) in the next county *said* that I said were my rules.

      August 4, 2012 at 4:02 pm |
    • Eric

      GOD does exist and he loves you. There is nothing you can do to make him love you less. It is unconditional.

      August 4, 2012 at 4:03 pm |
    • JWT

      That is your opinion eric. When it comes to me I will make such decisions not you. Your opions are good for you and only you.

      August 4, 2012 at 6:03 pm |
    • Lorraine

      JWT, I said if they would want it sir. Of course it is not for those persons who doesn't want it, as yourself, but I must continue for this is for all of those who do want it, ok, is that better? And Eric, bravo for you, yes YHWHs love is unconditional, and for all, His hand is always stretched out to us as said in Isaiah 9:12,17,21. And a Frayed Knot, this is our own fault, we must be responsible for not obeying the law. No matter what hard breaks that the guy James Holmes had in his life, he is still responsible for his own righteousness regardless of his problems for what he has done to those innocent people. It is our own punishment from being stiff necked, for we were warned by YHWH over, and over so there will be suffering, and pain if we disobey, we have to do right. This 'LIFE' is no game, it is very real.

      August 4, 2012 at 6:08 pm |
    • JWT

      Frayed Knots point is that your god has no business threatening people about an eternal damnation.

      August 4, 2012 at 6:53 pm |
    • A Frayed Knot

      Lorraine: "for we were warned by YHWH over, and over"

      No, we were warned by some long-dead Middle Eastern Hebrew men. There is no evidence that any supernatural being spoke to them.

      August 4, 2012 at 6:59 pm |
    • Bob

      A Frayed nut
      So if what you say is true then you have nothing to worry about!! So why even mention it unless you are ether being argumentative or have a little fear over going to burn in hell forever, the place where worm does not die and fire is not quenched

      August 5, 2012 at 9:22 am |
  20. Lorraine

    JWT, and Jen, jen you have not been reading all of the post of jwt, we have been going at this for some time now, and if one would read from Genesis – Malachi, you would learn that these high priest went astray, and many laws were changed to suit their convenience. This is why the wrath, and anger of YHWH began in the first place, the priest abusing their authority, just as those in authority do today, the oppressors. They were not to do many things that they had begun to do, against YHWH, and the prophet Isaiah was sent to them with a warning, and here we are still under this same tumult, mayhem in our world, because for 2000 years, we are still disobeying YHWH, giving praise to idols, whether its money, materialism, or religion, for YHWH has no religion, that is idolatry to Him. And, do women truly have equal rights? Its a bit better in the U.S. And there is still slavery going on in some countries, this is the control of mankind, not YHWH. And jwt stop lying, don't use the fork tounge on me.

    August 3, 2012 at 11:17 pm |
    • Bob

      Lorraine
      What do you consider yourself to be and how do you deal with sin? The temple is no longer there destroyed long ago and although they are trying to rebuild it and even have succeeded in breeding a red heifer have not made the temple yet and have not done sacrifices. YHWH in the words told of a Messiah to come since He has done that in the books you quote, how do you reconcile that?? I am not asking this to annoy more out of curiosity?

      August 4, 2012 at 9:33 am |
    • Lorraine

      Bob, I tried to send you a post on this question, but it was not allowed, I tried every way to word it but, it was not accepted. I will try now, in I Kings 8 and 9, of the Solomon Supplications, the prayer of Solomon was accepted by YHWH for us to do. And in Hosea 14:1,2 of prayer to be accepted until the temples are rebuilt as in Ezekiel 47,48, and in Jeremiah 31:37-40, the rebuilding will come, these are future prophecy. Yes we are to pray toward Yerusalem to YHWH for our iniquities. I don't know what a red heifer is that sounds like the jews esau stuff, the robbers in Daniel 11:14. I consider myself as awaken from the darkness to the truth, the light of YHWH, as taught to us in Isaiah 59, that people are in gross darkness, well, as in Daniel 12:1-4, those written in the book will awaken unto YHWH, and His truth. Although, Literally I consider to be a Hebrew Israelite descendant. YHWH is the Only Savior, and the Redeemer as taught in Isaiah 49:26, Isaiah 60:16.

      August 4, 2012 at 12:53 pm |
    • Lorraine

      BOB, oh and that is truly spelled Hebrew Yisraelite the descendant of, is what I consider myself to be.

      August 4, 2012 at 3:39 pm |
    • Bob

      Thank you for responding!!

      August 4, 2012 at 9:30 pm |
    • Bob

      Loraine you referred to passages just after the these ones that I have listed this is talking about the new covenant not only a Kingdom this is one of the Prophesies that Jesus has fulfilled in bringing a new covenant to Gods people.The people of God shall become numerous and prosperous. In Heb_8:8, Heb_8:9, this place is quoted as the sum of the covenant of grace made with believers in Jesus Christ. Not, I will give them a new law; for Christ came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it; but the law shall be written in their hearts by the finger of the Spirit, as formerly written in the tables of stone. The Lord will, by his grace, make his people willing people in the day of his power. All shall know the Lord; all shall be welcome to the knowledge of God, and shall have the means of that knowledge. There shall be an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, at the time the gospel is published. No man shall finally perish, but for his own sins; none, who is willing to accept of Christ's salvation.
      Jer 31:31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
      Jer 31:32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
      Jer 31:33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
      Jer 31:34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
      Jer 31:35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
      Jer 31:36 "If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the LORD, "Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before

      August 4, 2012 at 9:49 pm |
    • PRISM 1234

      Lorraine, without Jesus Christ you are totally LOST. You can not approach YHWH without Christ's blood applied to your soul. Satan has no problem with any religion, in fact he inspires it, promotes it and supports it, so long he can disregard Jesus Christ and who He really is. Because he knows that without Christ every soul is lost and he can claim it for himself! That's where you are, regardless of all your hoopla about your spiritual "insight" ..That's just the way it is, friend!

      August 5, 2012 at 1:38 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.