Editor's Note: Mark Osler is a Professor of Law at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
By Mark Osler, Special to CNN
I am a Christian, and I am in favor of gay marriage. The reason I am for gay marriage is because of my faith.
What I see in the Bible’s accounts of Jesus and his followers is an insistence that we don’t have the moral authority to deny others the blessing of holy institutions like baptism, communion, and marriage. God, through the Holy Spirit, infuses those moments with life, and it is not ours to either give or deny to others.
A clear instruction on this comes from Simon Peter, the “rock” on whom the church is built. Peter is a captivating figure in the Christian story. Jesus plucks him out of a fishing boat to become a disciple, and time and again he represents us all in learning at the feet of Christ.
During their time together, Peter is often naïve and clueless – he is a follower, constantly learning.
After Jesus is crucified, though, a different Peter emerges, one who is forceful and bold. This is the Peter we see in the Acts of the Apostles, during a fevered debate over whether or not Gentiles should be baptized. Peter was harshly criticized for even eating a meal with those who were uncircumcised; that is, those who did not follow the commands of the Old Testament.
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Peter, though, is strong in confronting those who would deny the sacrament of baptism to the Gentiles, and argues for an acceptance of believers who do not follow the circumcision rules of Leviticus (which is also where we find a condemnation of homosexuality).
His challenge is stark and stunning: Before ordering that the Gentiles be baptized Peter asks “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
None of us, Peter says, has the moral authority to deny baptism to those who seek it, even if they do not follow the ancient laws. It is the flooding love of the Holy Spirit, which fell over that entire crowd, sinners and saints alike, that directs otherwise.
My Take: Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality
It is not our place, it seems, to sort out who should be denied a bond with God and the Holy Spirit of the kind that we find through baptism, communion, and marriage. The water will flow where it will.
Intriguingly, this rule will apply whether we see homosexuality as a sin or not. The water is for all of us. We see the same thing at the Last Supper, as Jesus gives the bread and wine to all who are there—even to Peter, who Jesus said would deny him, and to Judas, who would betray him.
The question before us now is not whether homosexuality is a sin, but whether being gay should be a bar to baptism or communion or marriage.
Your Take: Rethinking the Bible on homosexuality
The answer is in the Bible. Peter and Jesus offer a strikingly inclusive form of love and engagement. They hold out the symbols of Gods’ love to all. How arrogant that we think it is ours to parse out stingily!
I worship at St. Stephens, an Episcopal church in Edina, Minnesota. There is a river that flows around the back and side of that church with a delightful name: Minnehaha Creek. That is where we do baptisms.
The Rector stands in the creek in his robes, the cool water coursing by his feet, and takes an infant into his arms and baptizes her with that same cool water. The congregation sits on the grassy bank and watches, a gentle army.
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At the bottom of the creek, in exactly that spot, is a floor of smooth pebbles. The water rushing by has rubbed off the rough edges, bit by bit, day by day. The pebbles have been transformed by that water into something new.
I suppose that, as Peter put it, someone could try to withhold the waters of baptism there. They could try to stop the river, to keep the water from some of the stones, like a child in the gutter building a barrier against the stream.
It won’t last, though. I would say this to those who would withhold the water of baptism, the joy of worship, or the bonds of marriage: You are less strong than the water, which will flow around you, find its path, and gently erode each wall you try to erect.
The redeeming power of that creek, and of the Holy Spirit, is relentless, making us all into something better and new.
The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Mark Osler.
The scriptures actually say nothing about homosexuality as a psychosexual orientation. Our understandings of sexual orientation are distinctly modern ones that were not present in the minds of Scripture writers . A few passages of Scripture (seven at the most) object to certain types of same-sex expressions or acts. The particular acts in question, however, are sexual expressions which are exploitative, oppressive, commercialized, or offensive to ancient purity rituals. There is no Scriptural guidance for same-sex relationships which are loving and mutually respecting. Guidelines for these relationships should come from the same general Scriptural norms that apply to heterosexual relationships.
Jesus was betrayed by a friend
Bible prophecy: Psalm 41:9
Prophecy written: About 1000 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: About 31 AD
Zechariah foreshadowed the betrayal of Jesus for 30 pieces of silver
Bible prophecy: Zechariah 11:12-13
Prophecy written: Between 520 and 518 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: About 31 AD
Jesus was spat upon and beaten
Bible prophecy: Isaiah 50:6
Prophecy written: Between 701-681 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: About 31 AD
God's servant would be silent before his accusers
Bible prophecy: Isaiah 53:7
Prophecy written: Between 701-681 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: About 31 AD
God's servant would die for our sins
Bible prophecy: Isaiah 53:4-6
Prophecy written: Between 701-681 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: About 31 AD
Zechariah foreshadowed the crucifixion of Jesus
Bible prophecy: Zechariah 12:10
Prophecy written: Between 520 and 518 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: About 31 AD
God's servant would be "numbered with the transgressors"
Bible prophecy: Isaiah 53:12
Prophecy written: Between 701-681 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: About 31 AD
God's servant would be buried in a rich man's tomb
Bible prophecy: Isaiah 53:9
Prophecy written: Between 701-681 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: About 31 AD
Thank You God that although we measure time by hours and minutes and cannot remember from moment to moment you never forget those that you love. That you make known the things you do before you do them so we can see and marvel at your wonderful power and majesty. Thank you that we can have confidence in you and not in man. That with you all things are possible to those that believe. Thank you that you made the way of Salvation and make it known to us. You are truly great and mighty Thank You Lord!!!!
Bob, most of all of these scriptures are describing the things that had happened to David, except for the one in Zech12, it is of YHWH, and David. David is the chosen seed, the child born of the lion 'heart' in I Samuel, also prophesied, by Jacob (Israel), of his sons, in Genesis 49:9-12, the sceptre, after Shiloh came to pass in the book of Joshua, “and unto him, shall the gathering of the people be” this is after the sceptre of Joshua, and Caleb, of David's 'seed' extending to David, the sceptre, which had returned in I Samuel; and in complements to this scripture is the one in Psalm 110; preferably Psalm 110:4, of the dedicated priest Melchizedek of Salem, to which David is compared to, of David also being so dedicated to YHWH the King.
These scriptures had all happened to David in the book of I, and II Samuel, and in I, and II Kings, and in Chronicles. And in the book of I Samuel this is describing the birth of David in I Samuel 16, and 17, the child that was born from of old, forever lasting, and of his 'SEED' in Micah 5:2, as was again prophesied in Genesis 49:9-12, out of Judah, and whose 'seed' is what YHWH talks about all through this book of remembrance, its' true name, named by YHWH in Malachi 3:16. This is about the chosen 'seed' who will be the ruler of the people, along with the Branch, in Jeremiah 33:14-22, and it represents from David's 'seed' of his descendants.
The scripture in Zechariah 11, this all had happened to David; and in Zechariah 12:10, this is YHWH speaking, and describing how those, of the nations who are against His son, His 'CHOSEN', Jerusalem, the house of David, Israel, Judah, Zion, they these nations are the ones who had 'pierced' Him, YHWH, read it. This is for any, and all people who are seeking, and with YHWH,as is said in Isaiah 56, that are not against Jerusalem, Praise all unto YHWH.
Lorraine David does not fulfill any of these.
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
1Jn 4:4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.
1Jn 4:5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.
1Jn 4:6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
Bob if YHWH did not say any of this well, no, David won't have anything to do with it, it is most likely idolatry, of said by man, not of YHWH.
In 1986 the pro-sod movement lost Bowers v. Hardwick; the US case which upheld the rights of individual states to criminalize sod. The loss was devastating. Desperate, angry, and galvanized pro-sod activists learned that if they could make a compelling case that they were born gay, they could become eligible for minority Status as a Suspect Class under the 1964 Civil Rights Act. If Minority Status were granted, it would force the overturn Bowers v. Hardwick, thus legalizing sod.
Bob, do you spend more time thinking about gay s#x than you do actually having s3x with a woman?
Bob, this same 'Sceptre' is also mentioned in Numbers 24:17-20, the star out of Jacob, that will conquer, and cause the enemy of YHWH to perish. Praise YHWH.
I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
"But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has aut-ho/rity to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Rephrasing this scripture: The scripture in Zechariah 11, this all had happened to David of his descendants, of the poor people, but not the misleading spoiled (full of their pride), mighty shepherds, the poor paying a goody price, 30 pieces of silver, praising unto YHWH.
This one goes out to all you fundamentalist Christians out there. Selah! I may be too narrow addressing this to just the fundamentalists. Many traditional Christians also fit the bill. Really, it’s anyone who believes that homosexuality is a sin, and that somehow God, infinite and eternal creator and sustainer of the very Universe, is ‘against’ a tiny human behavior that harms no one. So, in other words, uneducated and ridiculous people everywhere.
Officially, the majority of Christian churches say that homosexual behavior is a sin, thus proving that the theologians behind those churches don’t understand their own Bible. There are a whole bunch of goofball laws written down in the Old Testament that everyone ignores. Why is being bigoted toward homosexuals the one people latch onto?
The various Christian brands go through the Old Testament, picking and choosing the parts they consider cool. No one accepts the whole thing. No one. I mean, when was the last time a cheating spouse was actually put to death in keeping with the commandments of the Bible?
Using the Old Testament to determine if something is a sin is simply a matter of human and not godly opinion. It’s meaningless and certainly not ‘the word of God’. His teachings aren’t some basket of fruit for you to pick over. You either have to accept the old law in its entirety and start killing lots and lots of people or reject it in its entirety. Hand-picking the stuff you like is bogus, especially when you only pick the stuff that seems to legitimize your meanness to other people.
So the Old Testament is out.
Before we all start playing REM’s “Losing My Religion,” consider this denying someone the right to marry is not Christian, and certainly not American.
The people who are opposed to gay marriage, and by extension, gayness itself have no excuse. They are bigots and bigots alone. They can’t use their special book to justify their hate, even according to the special book itself. They have no one to thank but themselves. They take the Lord’s name in vain and feel righteous about it
Yes, they take the Lord’s name in vain. Most people believe incorrectly that this commandment is about cussing, but it’s not. It’s about using God for yourself , for your own vain (personal) ends. They hold the Bible in the air and use it like a bitch to bolster their own prejudices and bigotry and hate and that is vanity, all is vanity.
The teachings of Christ are plain enough: love and forgiveness, tolerance and healing, acceptance and rebellion. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing more needed. Add what you will to it, it still won’t be from the Christ. It will come from your own (black?) heart.
Jesus Christ is the origin of the word ‘Christian’. Perhaps we should pray about that a bit more.
Today’s Christians tend to be followers, accepting of the notion that religion is just a box built by someone else into which they must stuff their spirit. They are naive and willingly line up like lemmings wherever told. They have a casual ignorance that tells them the Beast will come in the obvious guise of science or secularism or liberality. They cannot conceive of the Father of Lies actually lying to them.
Sinclair Lewis said that when fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying the cross. When the Beast comes to the world, you can bet your sweet ass he will be thumping the Bible and preaching a hate disguised as love.
Gol boomerang Go Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
"Forward, the Light Brigade!
"Charge for the guns!" he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
"Gol boomerang "
This shows what a hypocrite this poster is seeing as he has re-posted his fake facts and prejudice posts over and over again. LMAO!
"These people know that there is something wrong but just cant seem to put a finger on it. It takes spiritual understanding to really understand life. "
What you are feeling is your unfounded prejudice and hatred toward this minority group is UNJUSTIFIED and WRONG. Hatred and prejudice that isn't based on real FACTS but your own hateful ego, which is why you continue to lie over and over again on this blog about the gay community. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
I guess atheists don't understand that sometimes Christians don't have to be mean to people for them to feel sensitive about coming to church and just plain fitting in. God through the Holy Spirit is fully capable of convicting someone on a unholy lifestyle. Then all it takes is for one person to mention something and that person goes through the roof. People don't understand the leading of God and how He does things in this time. If you feel condemned about something its not God but when the Holy Sprint convicts you the feeling is more like your mother telling you that you need to do this and just making it sort of unpleasant. Most don't have this ability to understand the spirit that is inside of them much less the work and voice of the Holy Spirit in their lives. These people know that there is something wrong but just cant seem to put a finger on it. It takes spiritual understanding to really understand life. So just like the overly sensitive wife that the husband mentions one thing and the fight begins so it is with sin in a persons life that they may not want to deal with. I have seen the results of conviction and then not dealing with the problem its not pretty because most of the time the person gets themselves into deeper problems. Then it takes so much so the person is not actually destroyed. The hand of God on a person is not pleasant when we don't want to change but in the obedience to change there is much joy and happiness not only because of the victory but because of the rewards God gives to those that by faith follow Him. Its like He always gives us a present just for doing good and being faithful. As if His very presence was not reward enough, What a joy when He comes and surrounds you. It is like a blanket of love and peace and the world doesn't even enter your thoughts.
Bob, I did not say that the sacrifice has changed, I gave you two scriptures to show you what the sacrifice is now, and it has 'STOPPED' there are no more sacrifces, until the end times because the people were sending lame sacrifices to YHWH in Malachi 1:6-14, and until the new temples are built as said in Ezekiel 40-46, of the end times in Daniel 12:11. These sacrifices will return. Solomon Supplication prayer was, and is accepted in I Kings 8,9, to pray for now until the temples are rebuilt. Just as grace, and mercy for the people was, an is accepted with Moses in Exodus 33, for their sins, and disobedience to YHWH. And when Abraham ask for the salvation of his nephew Lot, and his family who were in Sodom, and Gomorah, in Genesis 18. These are more like an exception until further notice, and or, a one time deal, in the case of Abraham. YHWH Bless.
"The hand of God on a person is not pleasant when we don't want to change"
A gay person can't change who they are and that is a fact that has been proven by experts around the world. Because of the aggressive promotion of efforts to change sexual orientation through therapy, a number of medical, health, and mental health professional organizations have issued public statements about the dangers of this approach. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
Bob, bigotry or prejudice in any form is more than a problem; it is a deep-seated evil within our society.
Lorraine I hate to tell you this but Solomans prayer was accepted but he did NOT WALK UPRIGHT before the Lord and this was done in the Temple and there was no mention of stopping any sacrifice in fact since this was done in the temple there was a sacrifice in case you didn't read it.
1Ki 9:4 "As for you, if you will walk before Me as your father David walked, in integrity of heart and uprightness, doing according to all that I have commanded you and will keep My statutes and My ordinances,
1Ki 9:5 then I will establish the throne of your kingdom over Israel forever, just as I promised to your father David, saying, 'You shall not lack a man on the throne of Israel.'
1Ki 9:6 "But if you or your sons indeed turn away from following Me, and do not keep My commandments and My statutes which I have set before you, and go and serve other gods and worship them,
1Ki 9:7 then I will cut off Israel from the land which I have given them, and the house which I have consecrated for My name, I will cast out of My sight. So Israel will become a proverb and a byword among all peoples.
1Ki 9:8 "And this house will become a heap of ruins; everyone who passes by will be astonished and hiss and say, 'Why has the LORD done thus to this land and to this house?'
Excellent work in your preparation of well-grounded posts here, explicating the concepts of orthodox Christian practice.
The word of God , through the Bible, is eternal. Attempts by apologists for GLBTQ fornication to describe and adhere to a revisionist interpretation of the Bible continue to fall short. Declarations by so called "100 Pastors" and citations from Psychological and Psychiatric fraternities that support GLBTQ fornication have done more harm than good.
The unintended consequence of these supportive actions have opened a virtual Pandora's box, revealing a smorgasboard of s@xu=al depravity that runs the gamut from NAMBLA to growing ranks of pedophile teachers, emboldened by the brazen behaviors seen in "Pride parades" and an increasingly risque mainstream media that panders to the lowest common denominator in entertainment.
The Bible provides a way out and a prescription for healing through GLBTQ celibate living.
Keep up the good work. You have made a difference here and many of the GLBTQ apologists look twice in the mirror everyday now as they come to grips with how they can begin to extricate themselves from the abyss in which they now exist. You have extended the hand of fellowship and cited the error of their ways. Thanks for your profession of faith and adherence to scriptural principles.
"Declarations by so called "100 Pastors" and citations from Psychological and Psychiatric fraternities that support GLBTQ fornication have done more harm than good."
You are such a liar. It's why the laws in this country have been changing. It's why the courts are ruling against prejudice bigots like you. Marriage was defined by the US Supreme Court as a civil right. Recognized federal civil rights law in the United States is grounded in the U.S. Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court. By this standard, marriage has long been established as a civil right.
The operative constitutional text is section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment, which was ratified in 1868. The relevant passages read as follows:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws
A federal appeals court on May 31st ruled that the Defense of Marriage Act is unconstitutional because it denies equal rights for legally married same-sex couples, making it likely that the Supreme Court will consider the politically divisive issue for the first time in its next term. This most likely will be decided in the courts and since most courts keep ruling in gays favor they should be able to over turn all the unconstitutional laws prejudice bigots have been trying to pass.
"The unintended consequence of these supportive actions have opened a virtual Pandora's box, revealing a smorgasboard of s@xu=al depravity that runs the gamut from NAMBLA to growing ranks of pedophile teachers, emboldened by the brazen behaviors seen in "Pride parades" and an increasingly risque mainstream media that panders to the lowest common denominator in entertainment."
This too is another LIE – keep proving to the world you are not a real Christian but a prejudice troll who has no facts to back yourself up. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
Christians are increasingly divided over the issue of the acceptance and inclusion of gay persons into the church. The debate itself is usually framed as essentially pitting the Bible, on one hand, against compassion and social justice on the other. Our Christian hearts, runs the (usually impassioned) argument, compel us to grant full moral and legal equality to gay and lesbian people; our Christian faith, comes the (usually impassioned) rebuttal, compels us to cleave, above all, to the word of God.
Compassion for others is the fundamental cornerstone of Christian ethics; the Bible is the bedrock of the Christian faith. What Christian can possibly choose between the two?
The answer is that no Christian is called upon to make that choice. The text of the Bible on one hand, and full equality for gay and lesbian people on the other, is a false dichotomy. God would not ask or expect Christians to ever choose between their heart and their faith.
Reconciling the Bible with unqualified acceptance and equality for LGBT people does not necessitate discounting, recasting, deconstructing or reinterpreting the Bible. All it takes is reading those passages of the Bible wherein homosexuality is mentioned with the same care we would any other passage of the book.
We can trust God; we can trust that God is loving.
And we can trust that we can - and that we certainly should - take God, in this matter, as in all things, at his Word.
If there is no clearly stated directive in the Bible to marginalize and ostracize gay people, then Christians continuing to do so is morally indefensible, and must cease.
What cannot be denied is that Christians have caused a great deal of pain and suffering to gay persons, by:
Banning their participation in the church, thus depriving them of the comforts and spiritual fruits of the church;
Banning their participation in the sacrament of marriage, thus depriving them of the comforts and spiritual fruits of marriage;
Damaging the bonds between gays and their straight family members, thus weakening the comforts and spiritual fruits of family life for both gays and their families; and
Using their position within society as spokespersons for God to proclaim that all homosexual relations are disdained by God, thus knowingly contributing to the cruel persecution of a minority population.
Christians do not deny that they have done these things. However, they contend that they have no choice but to do these things, based on what they say is a clear directive about homosexuals delivered to them by God through the Holy Bible. They say that the Bible defines all homosexual acts as sinful, instructs them to exclude from full participation in the church all non-repentant sinners (including gay people), and morally calls upon them to publicly (or at least resolutely) denounce homosexual acts.
Without an explicit directive from God to exclude and condemn homosexuals, the Christian community's treatment of gay persons is in clear violation of what Jesus and the New Testament writers pointedly identified as the most important commandment from God: to love one's neighbor as one's self.
The gay community has cried out for justice to Christians, who have a biblically mandated obligation to be just. Because the mistreatment of gay persons by Christians is so severe, the directive from God to marginalize and ostracize gay people must be clear and explicit in the Bible. If there is no such clearly stated directive, then the continued Christian mistreatment of gay and lesbian people is morally indefensible, and must cease.
The Bible is not a contract, or a set of instructions, with each passage spelling out something clear and specific. It is not a rulebook for being Christian. It is instead a widely varying collection of poetry, history, proverbs, moral directives, parables, letters and wondrous visions. We would be foolish to fail to understand that not everything in the Bible is a commandment, and that Christians cannot take any small section of the Bible out of its own context, and still hope to gain a clear understanding of its meaning.
We can be confident that Paul was not writing to, or about, gay people, because he simply could not have been, any more than he could have written about smart phones or iPads. We do not know what Paul might write or say today about gay people. All we know is that in the New Testament he wrote about promiscuous, predatory, non-consensual same-sex acts between heterosexuals.
If we are to rely on the Bible, then we must take its text as it is. It does condemn homosexual (and heterosexual) sex that is excessive, exploitive and outside of marriage. It does not, however, address the state of homosexuality itself - much less the subject of homosexual acts between a married gay couple. Christians therefore have no Bible-based moral justification for themselves condemning such acts.
Because there was no concept of gay marriage when the Bible was written, the Bible does not, and could not, address the sinfulness of homosexual acts done within the context of gay marriage.
The Bible routinely, clearly and strongly classifies all sex acts outside of the bonds of marriage as sinful. But, because there was no concept of gay people when the Bible was written, the Bible does not, and could not, address the sinfulness of homosexual acts done within the context of marriage. Christians therefore have no biblical basis for themselves condemning such acts.
In fact, by denying marriage equality to gay people, Christians are compelling gay couples to sin, because their intimacy must happen outside of marriage, and is therefore, by biblical definition, sinful.
Being personally repelled by homosexual sex doesn't make homosexual sex a sin.
Christians cite as additional evidence of the inherent sinfulness of homosexual acts their raw emotional response to such acts. It is understandable that many straight people find homosexual sex repugnant (just as many gay people find heterosexual sex repugnant). It is normal for any one of us to be viscerally repelled by the idea of sex between, or with, people for whom we personally have no sexual attraction. It may feel to a straight Christian that their instinctive negative reaction to homosexual sex arises out of the Bible. But all of us necessarily view the Bible through the lens of our own experiences and prejudices, and we must be very careful to ensure that lens does not distort our vision or understanding of God's sacrosanct word.
"The greatest of these is love."
The overriding message of Jesus was love. Jesus modeled love; Jesus preached love; Jesus was love. Christians desiring to do and live the will of Jesus are morally obliged to always err on the side of love.
Well at least its different words thank you for that although its wrong. Why would a atheist think that he could post things in explanation of what the Bible says???
"Well at least its different words thank you for that although its wrong. Why would a atheist think that he could post things in explanation of what the Bible says???"
More lies from Bob, keep proving to the world you are not a real Christian! LMAO! It's obvious this poster is a Christian.
Bob's not lying. He actually is so uneducated that he doesn't realize that this poster is a Christian. Pretty scary.
The poster is no Christian as usual another atheist that doesn't know the Bible, intelligence, faith and life in general, yet making judgements and calling everyone else what they themselves are,,, now that is truly uneducated.
Which one of us has the higher education? Which one of us can spell? Which one of us is kind? Which one of us has a family that loves them?
You have none of these things and yet you know about life????? Puh-lease..........
JS, you're no Christian. Stop pretending to be one. Gay people are so far removed from Jesus' truth it's no longer laughable. Why should churches allow their perverted behaviors into settings when scriptures tell us we shouldn't deal with sinners that refuse to stop sinning? Christians are gathered in churches globally doing their best to follow Jesus' teachings? Is a gay person trying to do this? No. Instead, they're telling us we need to change Jesus' rules just for them because they refuse to stop sinning.
Don aka Bob – "allow their perverted behaviors"
This just shows your uneducated prejudice the experts have proven you WRONG and your hateful mind can't handle it. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
Let me start this off with a quote from a famous lesbian, Lynn Lavner:
"There are 6 admonishments in the Bible concerning homosexual activity, and our enemies are always throwing them up to us – usually in a vicious way and very much out of context.
What they don't want us to remember is that there are 362 admonishments in the Bible concerning heterosexual activity. I don't mean to imply by this that God doesn't love straight people, only that they seem to require a great deal more supervision."
I am going to attempt to keep this short and simple, so here we go.
Some claim that Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 clearly say that homosexual sex is an abomination. In fact, it merits death. Isn't it obvious that God hates homosexuality?
Yes, depending on which translation you are using, Leviticus does say, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female, it's an abomination." However, a few points must be made about this statement:
a) It appears in Leviticus, which was given to preserve the distinctive characteristics of the religion and culture of Israel. However, as stated in Galatians 3:22-55, Christians are no longer bound by these Jewish laws. Even if you, for some reason, argue that these "laws" are still important, then you surely follow all of them, right?
It is interesting that people who use Leviticus against the gay community forget the part that talks about religious sacrifices, making women sleep in tents outside during their period, the dietary restrictions placed on them and how to cleanse a leper, all of which appear in Leviticus.
The laws of Leviticus are completely obsolete for today's Christian; however, even if you do claim to live by the laws of Leviticus, it is not fair to pick and choose which laws you are going to live by, or condemn a people by, if you are not going to follow the others. You should not need any more convincing evidence than this; but if you do, be my guest.
b) The word that was in the original work, "to'ebah," which was translated into Greek as "bdglygma" actually means "ritual impurity" rather than abomination (or enormous sin). These passages in Leviticus can be translated to not mean homosexual sex generally, but only limiting homosexual sex in Pagan temples.
c) This passage does not denounce homosexual behavior as a whole, but just the specific act of anal sex. This was meant for the prevention of disease. It was ruled unclean because it was physically unclean; however, hygiene has made wonderful advances since that time.
d) These passages in Leviticus can be interpreted in many ways. I have seen it interpreted by scholars and priests to mean: "don't have sex with another man in your wife's bed;" "don't have sex with another man in the temple;" and "don't have sex with another man and pretend he is a woman," just to name a few.
I have never seen an interpretation in any Bible, or from any scholar, that specifically says to never have sex with a man.
Some claim the Bible simply does not support gay marriage. Chapter two of Genesis defines marriage as a holy union between a man and a woman. And later, in Matthew 19:4-5, Jesus himself reiterates the traits of a traditional marriage. How can you argue that anything other than celibacy is honorable for gay and lesbian people?
Yes, marriage is a holy union. However, in these passages, while Jesus reiterates (but does not require) the traditional marriage, he also provides an exception for eunuchs (castrated men – or otherwise impotent men, in today's terms), and allowed them to be married, saying that this law is given to those to whom it applies.
Because these eunuchs were born sexless, God made an exception for them because it was natural. The same applies to the Gay community today. Science has proven homosexuality is completely natural, so it seems God would allow for homosexual marriages.
In Matthew 19: 4-5, Jesus encourages a traditional path, but does not discourage alternatives, except in the case of divorce.
Jesus did stress purity of marriage, but not in regard to the sexes of the people within it. It can be seen that the reason that churches are against homosexual marriage is not because it is explicitly said by God, but because of a lack of instruction to specifically allow it.
In the time that the Bible was written it would have been impossible to foresee the future to be able to specifically allow or forbid homosexual marriage.
Some claim, in Paul's letter to the Corinthians, he lists homosexuals amongst the many sinners who will not inherit the kingdom of God. Doesn't that make God's position on this vice very clear?
If we look at the other types of people listed in this passage, we can understand what it is actually talking about. Law breakers, thieves, adulterers and drunks are specifically mentioned. The word "homosexual" was not found until the 1890s; so it would have been impossible for it to be in the original version.
What actually appears in the original is Paul condemning those who are "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind." In this context, the original Greek word, "malakos," is translated into effeminate, or soft, which, more than likely, refers to someone who lacks discipline or moral control.
In this passage, when Paul condemns "abusers of themselves with mankind," he is speaking of male prostitutes.
Then there are the people who claim that, even though science has proven that people don't choose their sexual orientation, the fact remains that homosexuality is unnatural. Romans 1:26-27 tells us that humans have a sinful nature, and therefore commit sins against God. Certain people are predisposed to be alcoholics and pedophiles, but that doesn't make their actions any less immoral. God tells us to "tear out your eye" if it makes you stumble. Why can't you just accept homosexuality as the part of your nature you must deny?
Because the Bible has gone through so many translations, and through the hands of many people (some being non-believers), it is not surprising that the meaning has become a little fuzzy in parts.
Homosexuality is normal. The phrase "para physin" appears in the original text for this verse. This term is often translated to mean "unnatural;" however, more accurate translation would be unconventional.
Proof for this can be found in 1 Corinthians 11:14 where Paul uses this phrase to refer to men with long hair (unconventional, not unnatural) and in Romans 11:24 where Paul uses this phrase to refer to the positive action God made to bring together the Jews and Gentiles.
All in all, homosexuality is obviously not a sin, unless you take passages from the Bible and add your own words or you just try really hard to interpret it that way. Let's just remember Galatians 5:14, where Paul stated, "the whole Law is fulfilled in one Statement, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
Bob, this is why I do not like to hit the reply button, you never saw my post. I did post what is accepted as far as sacrifice, and I said that the sacrifices have been stopped prophesied in Daniel 12:11, and Malachi 1:6-14, until the new third temple is built as in Haggai 2, and in Ezekiel chapters, 40-46. All of the rebuilding of the new temples for sacrifice will be built in the new kingdom of YHWH, Jeremiah 31:37-40.
And, for sins now the Supplication of Solomon's prayer is what was, and is accepted by YHWH in I Kings 8, and 9. Also, I am an Israelite, (Hebrew Yisraelite), there is no religion, just the truth from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob of the chosen people, and the covenant, and its history. For which the covenant is perpetual, and I do the Sabbath, and the passover in Exodus 12, and the 10 commandments, all the law of righteousness,but I am not a jew, never. The word jew is an aberration, made up from Judah which was originally 'Yhwhudh' no vowels. YHWH Bless.
If it helps, I have an associates in psychology, and I've worked for the state, the government, the board of ed., and more.. now that certifies, or gives me the right to be weird, lol. Functioning in society is over rated, it is the amount of the figures is all that is considered these days, lets be real, no matter what people do, these are the times.
For example: face book,you tube,snuggies,toothpicks,except toothpicks are a great invention, simple, but very needed. Money is one of the reasons why much is being accepted whether it is natural, moral, or not, as long as it is rewarding. YHWH Bless. p.s. sorry about my diction, spelling, i get excited, and truly, my computer is a dump.
Didn't see your post, no it has more to do with your ego. Stop being stupid and use the reply button.
Oh, how could I forget, those darn reality shows, most are just useless to watch, but it sells, yep, if you get on them, then ones figures, perks, can change better than an average paying job.
Now that's funny Lorraine, now I know why your off center :) I would look into the sin issue again why in your own words would God change the sacrifice for sin, since you say He doesn't change?? Blessings
Bob, two different people, in Daniel's vision there were more than two, there were 10 horns of different kings, and governments. Also, with this controversy going on so long with Zion, Israel, at some point don't it seem to be unusual for this? and is why YHWH says this will be His vengeance, over this controversy, in Isaiah 34:8, and in Ezekiel 36:1-5, of this same robbery of the holy land against YHWH, and from Ezekiel 36:7-38, YHWH tells how His chosen defiled this land, and got scattered, punished, but how He will bring His true chosen back.
For the vengeance will be great destruction for this enemyhere now, this is how you know it has not happened yet, this is a future prophecy to come upon Israel, Zion. Praise YHWH.
For the vengeance will be a great destruction to this enemy there now in Israel, this is how you know it has not happened yet, this is a future prophecy to come upon Israel, Zion. Praise YHWH
Now that you proved you know how to use the reply button start using it
The most beautiful word in the Gospel of Jesus Christ is "whosoever." All of God's promises are intended for every human being. This includes gay men and lesbians. How tragic it is that the Christian Church has excluded and persecuted people who are homosexual! We are all created with powerful needs for personal relationships. Our quality of life depends upon the love we share with others, whether family or friends, partners or peers. Yet, lesbians and gay men facing hostile attitudes in society often are denied access to healthy relationships. Jesus Christ calls us to find ultimate meaning in life through a personal relationship with our Creator. This important spiritual union can bring healing and strength to all of our human relationships. Changing Interpretations…the Impact of Study
Biblical Interpretation and Theology also change from time to time. Approximately 150 years ago in the United States, some Christian teaching held that there was a two-fold moral order: black and white. Whites were thought to be superior to blacks, therefore blacks were to be subservient and slavery was an institution ordained by God. Clergy who supported such an abhorrent idea claimed the authority of the Bible. The conflict over slavery led to divisions which gave birth to some major Christian denominations. These same denominations, of course, do not support slavery today. Did the Bible change? No, their interpretation of the Bible did!
Some "televangelists" carelessly proclaim that God destroyed the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of "homosexuality." Although some theologians have equated the sin of Sodom with homosexuality, a careful look at Scripture corrects such ignorance. Announcing judgment on these cities in Genesis 18, God sends two angels to Sodom, where Abraham's nephew, Lot, persuades them to stay in his home. Genesis 19 records that "all the people from every quarter" surround Lot's house demanding the release of his visitors so "we might know them." The Hebrew word for "know" in this case, yadha, usually means "have thorough knowledge of." It could also express intent to examine the visitors' credentials, or on rare occasions the term implies sexual intercourse. If the latter was the author's intended meaning, it would have been a clear case of attempted gang rape. Several observations are important.
First, the judgment on these cities for their wickedness had been announced prior to the alleged homosexual incident. Second, all of Sodom's people participated in the assault on Lot's house; in no culture has more than a small minority of the population been homosexual. Third, Lot's offer to release his daughters suggests he knew his neighbors to have heterosexual interests. Fourth, if the issue was sexual, why did God spare Lot, who immediately commits incest with his daughters? Most importantly, why do all the other passages of Scripture referring to this account fail to raise the issue of homosexuality?
Most New Testament books, including the four Gospels, are silent on same-sex acts, and Paul is the only author who makes any reference to the subject. The most negative statement by Paul regarding same-sex acts occurs in Romans 1:24-27 where, in the context of a larger argument on the need of all people for the gospel of Jesus Christ, certain homosexual behavior is given as an example of the "uncleanness" of idolatrous Gentiles.
This raises the question: Does this passage refer to all homosexual acts, or to certain homosexual behavior known to Paul's readers? The book of Romans was written to Jewish and Gentile Christians in Rome, who would have been familiar with the infamous sexual excesses of their contemporaries, especially Roman emperors. They would also have been aware of tensions in the early Church regarding Gentiles and observance of the Jewish laws, as noted in Acts 15 and Paul's letter to the Galatians. Jewish laws in Leviticus mentioned male same-sex acts in the context of idolatry.
The homosexual practices cited in Romans 1:24-27 were believed to result from idolatry and are associated with some very serious offenses as noted in Romans 1. Taken in this larger context, it should be obvious that such acts are significantly different from loving, responsible lesbian and gay relationships seen today.
What is "Natural"?
Significant to Paul's discussion is the fact that these "unclean" Gentiles exchanged that which
was "natural" for them, physin, in the Greek text, for something "unnatural," para physin. In
Romans 11:24, God acts in an "unnatural" way, para physin, to accept the Gentiles. "Unnatural" in
these passages does not refer to violation of so-called laws of nature, but rather implies action
contradicting one's own nature. In view of this, we should observe that it is "unnatural," para
physin, for a person today with a lesbian or gay sexual orientation to attempt living a heterosexual
I Corinthians 6:9
Any consideration of New Testament statements on same-sex acts must carefully view the social
context of the Greco-Roman culture in which Paul ministered. Prostitution and pederasty (sexual relationships of adult men with boys) were the most commonly known male same-sex acts. In I Corinthians 6:9, Paul condemns those who are "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind," as translated in the King James version. Unfortunately, some new translations are worse, rendering these words "homosexuals." Recent scholarship unmasks the homophobia behind such mistranslations.
The first word – malakos, in the Greek text-which has been translated "effeminate" or "soft," most likely refers to someone who lacks discipline or moral control. The word is used elsewhere in the New Testament but never with reference to sexuality.
The second word, Arsenokoitai, occurs once each in I Corinthians and I Timothy (1:10), but nowhere else in other literature of the period. It is derived from two Greek words, one meaning, "males" and the other "beds", a euphemism for sexual intercourse. Other Greek words were commonly used to describe homosexual behavior but do not appear here. The larger context of I Corinthians 6 shows Paul extremely concerned with prostitution, so it is very possible he was referring to male prostitutes. But many experts now attempting to translate these words have reached a simple conclusion: their precise meaning is uncertain. Scripture Study Conclusion…No Law Against Love
The rarity with which Paul discusses any form of same-sex behavior and the ambiguity in references attributed to him make it extremely unsound to conclude any sure position in the New Testament on homosexuality, especially in the context of loving, responsible relationships. Since any arguments must be made from silence, it is much more reliable to turn to great principles of the Gospel taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. Do not judge others, lest you be judged. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is love . . . against such there is no law. One thing is abundantly clear, as Paul stated in Galatians 5:14: "...the whole Law is fulfilled in one statement, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself".
Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
Heb 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth"
The reason you choose this one Bob is because it is talking about YOU again. You've done nothing but lie over and over again when you have been presented with the REAL truth of today. That log in your eye is getting bigger! LMAO!
Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."
As Christian clergy we proclaim the Good News concerning Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) persons and publicly apologize where we have been silent. As disciples of Jesus, who assures us that the truth sets us free, we recognize that the debate is over. The verdict is in. Homosexuality is not a sickness, not a choice, and not a sin. We find no rational biblical or theological basis to condemn or deny the rights of any person based on sexual orientation. Silence by many has allowed political and religious rhetoric to monopolize public perception, creating the impression that there is only one Christian perspective on this issue. Yet we recognize and celebrate that we are far from alone, as Christians, in affirming that LGBT persons are distinctive, holy, and precious gifts to all who struggle to become the family of God.
In repentance and obedience to the Holy Spirit, we stand in solidarity as those who are committed to work and pray for full acceptance and inclusion of LGBT persons in our churches and in our world. We lament that LGBT persons are condemned and excluded by individuals and institutions, political and religious, who claim to be speaking the truth of Christian teaching. This leads directly and indirectly to intolerance, discrimination, suffering, and even death. The Holy Spirit compels us:
-to affirm that the essence of Christian life is not focused on sexual orientation, but how one lives by grace in relationship with God, with compassion toward humanity;
- -to embrace the full inclusion of our LGBT brothers and sisters in all areas of church life, including leadership;
- -to declare that the violence must stop. Christ’s love moves us to work for the healing of wounded souls who are victims of abuse often propagated in the name of Christ;
- -to celebrate the prophetic witness of all people who have refused to let the voice of intolerance and violence speak for Christianity, especially LGBT persons, who have met hatred with love;
Therefore we call for an end to all religious and civil discrimination against any person based on sexual orientation and gender identity and expression. All laws must include and protect the freedoms, rights, and equal legal standing of all persons, in and outside the church.
100 gay biased dead pastors all a stain to the faith What I am really amazed at is I have not seen any church exclude gays yet you listen to these atheists and you would think no one lets them attend. Attendance is not a problem, marriage, intercourse and being the head of a ministry is. Another lie from those that don't know and another repost from Boomerang.
"100 gay biased dead pastors all a stain to the faith "
More lies from Bob! LMAO! Bob can't back anything with actual facts so he lies to try and justify his prejudice mind.
Bob you're wrong Catholic and Methodist churches, all too often come down on the side of condemnation and rejection of others rather than on the side of grace and Christian love. Churches do exclude gays from their services.
It shouldn't be that way for gays who want to have a relationship with the Lord should be allowed to attend and be welcomed where ever they want. But like I said the problem is with marriage, copulation and serving in ministry. If they don't mind those things then all churches should welcome them. Even then anyone should be able to attend a church.
"But like I said the problem is with marriage, copulation and serving in ministry. If they don't mind those things then all churches should welcome them. Even then anyone should be able to attend a church."
This is how prejudice this poster is – if they don't mind being denied their civil rights. You've got to joking, what a bigot. Marriage was defined by the US Supreme Court as a civil right. Recognized federal civil rights law in the United States is grounded in the U.S. Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court. By this standard, marriage has long been established as a civil right.
The NAACP has passed a resolution endorsing same-sex marriage as a civil right, putting it stamp on an issue that has divided the black community.
The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People's board voted at a leadership retreat in Miami on Saturday to back a resolution supporting marriage equality, calling the position consistent with the equal protection provision of the US constitution.
"The mission of the NAACP has always been to ensure political, social and economic equality of all people," board chairwoman Roslyn M Brock said in a statement. "We have and will oppose efforts to codify discrimination into law."
Same-sex marriage is legal in six states and the District of Columbia, but 31 states have passed amendments to ban it.
The NAACP vote came about two weeks after President Barack Obama announced his support for gay marriage, setting off a flurry of political activity in a number of states. Obama's announcement followed vice-president Joe Biden's declaration in a television interview that he was "absolutely comfortable" with gay couples marrying.
"Civil marriage is a civil right and a matter of civil law. The NAACP's support for marriage equality is deeply rooted in the fourteenth amendment of the United States constitution and equal protection of all people" said NAACP president Benjamin Todd Jealous, a strong backer of gay rights.
Gay marriage has divided the black community, with many religious leaders opposing it. In California, exit polls showed about 70% of black people opposed same-sex marriage in 2008. In Maryland, black religious leaders helped derail a gay marriage bill last year. But state lawmakers passed a gay marriage bill this year.
Pew Research Center polls have found that African Americans have become more supportive of same-sex marriage in recent years; but remain less supportive than other groups. A poll conducted in April showed 39% of African-Americans favor gay marriage, compared with 47% of white people. The poll showed 49% of black people and 43% of white people are opposed.
The Human Rights Campaign, a leading gay rights advocacy group, applauded the NAACP's step.
"We could not be more pleased with the NAACP's history-making vote – which is yet another example of the traction marriage equality continues to gain in every community," HRC president Joe Solmonese said in a statement.
Is homosexuality a sin?
Self-indulgence is a sin. But the relationship of two people of the same sex may or may not be self-indulgent.
Abusing the neighbor is a sin. But the exploration of relationships among homosexuals as they search for partners, evaluate their existing formative relationships, and relate to each other may or may not be abusive.
Disobeying what God commands in the Bible is a sin. But, we have biblically-derived criteria for assessing and applying specific commands by reading them against larger themes.
Turning your back on God is a sin. Homosexuals are often among those who have turned their back on the church, and may be sinning because they also rejected the God they found in church. The church needs to be in mission to homosexuals with the message of Jesus and who God really is.
Yielding to your passions, even celebrating them is a sin. Homosexuals do include those who have done this. But it is not an inherent aspect of being gay.
Since we see people who have dedicated themselves to God, and for whom their gay sexual life is integrated into that decision and we see that their sexuality does not draw them away from church we must conclude that being and living gay is not a behavior in and of itself that produces pain to the neighbor and leads one away from God.
By the criteria the scripture sets for us for what is godly life, and by the reasoning scripture asks us to employ, homosexuality cannot be described as against God’s law.
If this seems like a rather quiet sort of justification for homosexuality, then perhaps it is because the grand clichés of this debate have been shouted at us for too long . But look at the Bible: it's demands and vision cut across all categories, not staying on the surface but penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart, rejecting all forms of self-justification, all forms of attack on the "other" and all forms of escape from God's assessment of our behavior. How on earth could we have ever thought that a series of flat rules was all God wanted to tell us on morality?
gigi, all of what these scenes of the works of YHWH,and sciptures, are only copies of all the scriptures, and words said by YHWH, and the only redeemer, and savior, as He has taught us in Isaiah 49:26, and in Isaiah 60:16,in the OT. Only the NT mixes up the truth with lies, fabricating Hollywood with the truth from YHWH. As in Matt.24:21, this is just a copy of Daniel 12:1-4. People read Genesis-Malachi to get the whole truth.
As in Rev.14:12, is a copy of Exodus 20, Malachi 4:4, and Deut. chpts., 30,31,32, and it never says jc., this law is from YHWH. And Rev.21:4, is a copy of Isaiah 2:1-5, and Isaiah 65, only the lie of never being death is misleading, for why would YHWH put in Isaiah 53:10, and many other scriptures YHWH says, just like that this elect, this chosen who will rule, will 'PROLONG' his days, as did Job who lived for 4 generations of his family happily.
So, why would the Creator of all life turn around, and change what He says through Deuteronomy,and the whole book of remembrance, given to us in Malachi 3:16,for us to remember, in Genesis-Malachi. This is for all as said in Isaiah 56. He is not contrary, as He teaches in Malachi 3:6, that YHWH changes 'NOT' none of His law of righteousness, the 10 commandments.
The NT is Hollywood, read the real truth in Genesis-Malachi, pray, study, and do the commandments. And eat well as YHWH teaches us in Deut. 14, and Leviticus 11, to get the spirit from YHWH to bless one with His Word, and the truth.
Bob, again you have been greatly misled, for Daniel 11:37, is not the anti-christ, this is Augustus Caesar, who develop, and included the Vestal Virgins, Nuns, (no regard for women), and vs.38, this is Constantine, who legalized christianity, vs.39,with a most strong hold with a strange god, jc, who will rule over many, with increased glory, and will divide the land for gain, (the Charlemagne, 800cead), of the Treaty of Verdun of 838, of the divided land Sweden, Denmark, Spain, France, England, U.S, Germany, Norway, Netherlands, all are christians.
This idol jc, or if one likes to call it, the anti-christ, is now the ruler over many as prophesied, in Daniel 11:39, and in Daniel 11:43-45, this is the strange god of islam, also warned, and prophesied to us by Daniel. Now didn't Gaddafi, and Mubarak come to their end? Prophecy fulfilled. All Praise is for YHWH.
Bob, in addition, these jews are not the chosen people in Israel, this controversy is going on now, and has been for decades, the Palestinians are the true Israelites, confirmed by YHWH,when He tells us that He will address this controversy in Zion, in Isaiah 34:8, what it truly is over there, is Zion.
Jews, not Hebrew Israelites as far back as the book of Esther were ran out to Gresian, Turkey, and were there for 2000 years, even loosing their Hebrew language, speaking Yiddish, then when the 1897 Herzel Movement came, this is when the jews began to claim Israel, or Zion, and the instigation of both wars, World War I,&II, following the Holocaust, also instigated to establish the vision in Daniel 11:14, exposed by a rich jew, former zionist Benjamin H. Freedman, these jew zionist cracked a few eggs to make an omlet, it has even been found that there wasn't 6mill.,who died in the Holocaust, it wasn't even 6mill. living in Germany then, all demographically planned, by jew demagogues, note, not all jews are complicit to this robbery. Praise YHWH.
Ok so Daniel in 11:37,11:38,11:39 Although these verses show no shifting in interpretation or context as Daniel is relating this vision which is actually God giving it to Daniel, you believe that it is about 2 different people and times with nothing to do with the original context. I don't agree with you which has nothing to do that your interpretation makes no sense at all. It is not consistent in thought not consistent in context not in any commentary and not consistent in how God relates a vision to His people. I wonder if you are deliberately trying to cause confusion because I would believe that anyone who is this far off would have a hard time understanding and dealing with life in general. I had hopes that you would understand a error in your comprehension but I no longer believe that is possible. You have never clarified what you call yourself and the fact that although you call Christians wanting to get off easy haven't said how you offer a sacrifice for sin. God never changed how sin was supposed to be handled and made no other way to deal with it without a sacrifice. There is no compromise in the word of God and sin is a big issue so if you compromise with the offering and the cleansing of sin then there will be compromise throughout. The blood of Jesus washes all sin away this is the new way that God made for those that love Him and follow His word not the ones that compromise His words.
Thank you for your post that really clears up everything, I didn't see it before I wrote my last post. You cannot praise God and not care for His people who are without a doubt is the Jews unless you believe in the Muslim religion. Thank you for being able to get a understanding of a different point of view and what is being said.
No, forked tongued christians just do not want to do what is right, to them right is the abstraction, its just too hard, and is why they fabricate a new order of doing things, and then lie, and say this is what their idol told them to do. Simply, disregarding all what their Creator YHWH says to do. Changing the laws around from what YHWH wanted for us to live righteously. But, He will in His day have many to know Him, it is but a little while as in Isaiah 10:25, tells us, and in Habakkuk 2:1-3, and in Malachi 3:18, the future prophecies. Praise YHWH.
Wow we found Lorraines hot button I guess Christians are worse than gays or atheists :) Those religious spirits don't like to get challenged
Bob you're loosing the argument, you might want too look in the mirror old chap.
Bob, if jesus is the Messiah, tell me then who is Shimon bar Kokhba to you? Who he was, was a jew, who fought against the Romans in 132bce, in the last jewish, roman revolt, and before he was defeated he too was called the Messiah, 100 years after the so called jesus was supposed to be the Messiah. Would not people still be calling jesus the Messiah instead of Shimon bar Kokhba?, who was later defeated in 135bce, look it up. Then afterward, the Romans renamed Jerusalem, Alia Captialia, and Israel, Palestine, until this day. The NT misleads the flocks from the truth as YHWH said they did in Ezekiel 34, and other scriptures whom He is angry with the priest, pastors, shepherds, misleading His flocks. They have even profaned His name in Ezekiel 36:22,23, where He says on His return He will sanctify His name. YHWH Bless, and praise YHWH.
It was Rabbi Akiva who ascribed to Shimon bar Kochba the famous messianic verse: “A star will shoot forth from Jacob” (Numbers 24:17). That is how he got the name “Kochba,” which means “star.” In essence, Rabbi Akiva crowned him the Messiah. Rabbi Akiva was so widely respected among the people that if he saw in Shimon messianic qualities then the people immediately elevated him to the level of the Messiah. The helps us understand very well why the Christians would take no part in the war; it would have made one messiah too many.Many details of the war are unclear to us. We know that at one point Bar Kochba took back Jerusalem and proclaimed that he was going to rebuild the Temple, which was one of the steps the Messiah was supposed to do according to prophecy and tradition. However, due to Roman pressure and internal dissention he apparently never got to actually rebuilding it. By the third year of his reign there were already signs of disenchantment.After a string of almost unbroken successes for four to five years he now began to suffer reverses. Then they began calling him, “Bar Koziba,” meaning the son of a lie; a false messiah. Their hopes were dashed.
Ceramic evidence indicates occupation of the City of David, within present-day Jerusalem, as far back as the Copper Age (c. 4th millennium BCE) with evidence of a permanent settlement during the early Bronze Age (c. 3000–2800 BCE) The Execration Texts, which refer to a city called Roshlamem or Rosh-ramen] and the Amarna letters (c. 14th century BCE) may be the earliest mention of the city Some archaeologists, including Kathleen Kenyon, believe Jerusalem] as a city was founded by Northwest Semitic people with organized settlements from around 2600 BCE. According to Jewish tradition, the city was founded by Shem and Eber, ancestors of Abraham. In the biblical account, Jerusalem ("Salem") when first mentioned is ruled by Melchizedek, an ally of Abraham (identified with Shem in legend). Later, in the time of Joshua, Jerusalem lay within territory allocated to the tribe of Benjamin (Joshua 18:28), but continued to be under the independent control of the Jebusites until it was conquered by David and made into the capital of the united Kingdom of Israel (c. 11th century BCE) Recent excavations of a Large Stone Structure and a nearby Stepped Stone Structure are widely believed to be the remains of King David's palace. The excavations have been interpreted by some archaeologists as lending credence to the biblical narrative, while others disagree
I think this effectively answers the questions you asked and show Israel has never been relocated and the Palestinians have no claim to the land. The Jews never believed Jesus as Messiah and it still is that way but some are coming around and this is also explained because a veil remains over their eyes till the time of the Gentiles is full. The Jews always thought the Messiah was the one that was going to deliver them from Roman oppression but in the Tanakh it never said the Savior was to do that. When Jesus came they kept asking when are we going to fight the Romans. Jesus said my Kingdom is not of this earth the exact way the Messiah was supposed to be
Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.
Isa 42:2 "He will not cry out or raise His voice, Nor make His voice heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 "A bruised reed He will not break And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice.
Isa 42:4 "He will not be disheartened or crushed Until He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law."
Bob, to clear up, no I do not have a hot button, I was responding to another's post about a holiness code, which I think is a crock to keep from doing the will of YHWH, and His law of righteousness, is what I was giving my opinion on. Secondly, when you say that jc says the kingdom is not of this earth, this is so controversy to the OT, and what YHWH says all through the book of remembrance is about the new kingdom being inhabited.
He, YHWH specifically tells, and teaches us that His holy land, and this earth will be inhabited by the son of man in Jeremiah 33:14-22. Besides jc saying something without the Word of YHWH is a 'red flag' for anyone who reads the truth. In Amos 3:7, YHWH says, or does nothing without His prophets, and they proclaim every word of YHWH.
The jews converting to jc, as well as many of the islamic ones are doing, is all part of the prophecy of Daniel 11:39, this idol will rule over many, his glory will be increased, therefore prophecy is being fulfilled. Regardless, how can it be another called the Messiah in the time of bar Kokhba after jc, and saying that the job of the Messiah to restore the temple was not for jc, is totally insane.
For this is all YHWH tells us about of His holy land being rebuilt in Jeremiah 31:37-40, and in Ezekiel chapters 40-46, of this new kingdom being rebuilt of the temples for sacrifice, and all for YHWH, even before the last battle comes in Ezekiel 38. You have been mislead greatly sir. Many need to read Genesis-Malachi for themselves to know the truth of what is to come. Praise YHWH.
Dan 11:37 "He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women, nor will he show regard for any other god; for he will magnify himself above them all.
This one line blows away your whole argument it is the antichrist it is not Jesus how could you get that confused?? Jesus turns our hearts to the Father not away from Him. The Jews have already come back to their homeland it happened in 1948. The timeline you are refering to is way off if the proper time line is used it wil make the events clear.
Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.
Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.
There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.
Leviticus , in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.
Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?
Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).
That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex
Interesting in Johns post he makes mention of Leviticus that the word abomination and says its the same Greek word for menstruation. Abomination in Hebrew is actually three distinct words, and are rendered in the English Bible by "abomination," or "abominable thing. It would be good if these words could be distinguished in translation, as they denote different degrees of abhorrence or loathsomeness. Everything akin to magic or divination is likewise an abomination to¯?e¯bha¯h; as are relational transgressions , especially relations between family and other unnatural offenses. This is the most severe form of abhorrence and it is used to describe gay relations, the abomination of desolation and diviners and mediums. This is the meaning in the Bible where it talks about a man laying with a man. John does not mention this in his research and actually glosses over it. Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thy house and thus become a thing set apart like unto it, thou shalt utterly detest it and utterly abhor it, for it is a thing set apart To¯?e¯bha¯h is even used as synonymous with “idol” or heathen deity,
John also says that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was no hospitality this is totally bogus, in fact their sin was the very same thing we see today that's why he cant see clearly that they were sinners before the Lord exceedingly, guilty of the most notorious crimes, and addicted to the most scandalous and unnatural lusts that can be thought of; and these they committed openly and publicly in the sight of God, in the most daring and impudent manner, and in defiance of him, without any fear or shame. The Targum of Jonathan reckons up many of their sins, as defrauding of one another in their substance, sinning in their bodies, unclean copulation, shedding of innocent blood, worshiping of idols, and rebelling against the name of the Lord. Isaiah 3 verse 9. it will reveal the truth to you.
"John also says that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was no hospitality this is totally bogus, in fact their sin was the very same thing we see today that's why he cant see clearly that they were sinners before the Lord exceedingly, guilty"
This is how stupid this poster is when it comes to the bible. It even states in Ezekiel that the sin was bad hospitality. LOL! Oh and by the way so is RAPE! LMAO Seriously don't take anything Bob posts as fact because of his poor reading comprehension skills and his deep seeded prejudice.
"This is the most severe form of abhorrence and it is used to describe gay relations, the abomination of desolation and diviners and mediums."
The abomination Bob is your unfounded bigotry and hatred of the gay community. Let's look at all the other abominations: Unclean things (Lev. 7:21) ; Cheating (Mic. 6:10) ; A proud look (Pro. 6:16-17) ; A lying tongue (Pro. 6:17; 12:22) ; Hands that shed innocent blood ((Pro. 6:17) ; A wicked scheming heart (Pro. 6:18) ; A false witness that speaks lies (Pro. 6:19) ; A sower of discord (Pro. 6:19) ; A false balance or scale (Pro. 11:1) ; The proud of heart (Pro. 16:5) ; Justifying the wicked (Pro. 17:15) ; Condemning the just (Pro. 17:15) ; Refusing to hear the law (Pro. 28:9) ; Wearing clothes of the opposite sex (Dt. 22:5) Re-marriage of former companions (Dt. 24:1-4) ; Cheating others (Dt. 25:13-16) ; Making images/idols (Dt. 27:15) ; Eating unclean things (Isa. 66:17) ; Robbery (Ezek. 18: 6-13) ; Murder (Ezek. 18: 6-13) ; Adultery (Ezek. 18: 6-13) ; Oppression of others, particularly the poor or vulnerable (Ezek. 18: 6-13) ; Violence (Ezek. 18: 6-13) ; Breaking vows (Ezek. 18: 6-13) ; Lending with interest to a brother (Ezek. 18: 6-13) ; Lying with a menstruous woman (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
So Bob you qualify for – A wicked scheming heart – trying to oppression of the gay community and lastly a false witness that speaks lies. You've been proven a liar over and over again on this blog.
The one that is an abomination is YOU!
"GLBTQ Celibacy......living without condemnation.
GLBTQ Celibacy.....a healthy alternative to the abyss of STDs and "superbugs".
GLBTQ Celibacy.....a movement that is trending and gaining increased momentum as folks get on board.
GLBTQ Celibacy.....the path to deliverance and salvation.
GLBTQ Celibacy.....the right thing to do for couples affirming their commitment to each other."
The Scriptures at no point deal with homosexuality as an authentic sexual orientation, a given condition of being. The remarkably few Scriptural references to "homosexuality" deal rather with homosexual acts, not with homosexual orientation. Those acts are labeled as wrong out of the context of the times in which the writers wrote and perceived those acts to be either nonmasculine, idolatrous, exploitative, or pagan. The kind of relationships between two consenting adults of the same sex demonstrably abounding among us - relationships that are responsible and mutual, affirming and fulfilling - are not dealt with in the Scriptures.
Ti 1:9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
1Ti 1:10 and immoral men and h0m0-. se-.xu-.als and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor h0m0–.se-.-xuals,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
Gen 3:16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Rom 1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty
Boomerang is at it again as the post from Melvin and from John are reposts
Everything Bob posted has NOTHING to do with homosexuality as we know and understand it today. Part of reading comprehension 101 is putting the scriptures into historical context to get the real meaning. The word homosexual was invented when the bible was written so a bias and prejudice scribe added it later, The other scriptures he's trying to use to justify his prejudice and hatred toward the gay community don't apply. They are about rape, worshiping a pagan god using sex, male prostitution, idolatry, none of it has to do with the loving long term relationship of a gay couple as we know and understand it today. Being gay has been proven to be normal and totally natural something Bob denies even though the facts have been posted over and over again.
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