home
RSS
My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage
The author backs same-sex marriage because of his faith, not in spite of it.
May 19th, 2012
02:00 AM ET

My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage

Editor's Note: Mark Osler is a Professor of Law at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

By Mark Osler, Special to CNN

I am a Christian, and I am in favor of gay marriage. The reason I am for gay marriage is because of my faith.

What I see in the Bible’s accounts of Jesus and his followers is an insistence that we don’t have the moral authority to deny others the blessing of holy institutions like baptism, communion, and marriage. God, through the Holy Spirit, infuses those moments with life, and it is not ours to either give or deny to others.

A clear instruction on this comes from Simon Peter, the “rock” on whom the church is built. Peter is a captivating figure in the Christian story. Jesus plucks him out of a fishing boat to become a disciple, and time and again he represents us all in learning at the feet of Christ.

During their time together, Peter is often naïve and clueless – he is a follower, constantly learning.

After Jesus is crucified, though, a different Peter emerges, one who is forceful and bold. This is the Peter we see in the Acts of the Apostles, during a fevered debate over whether or not Gentiles should be baptized. Peter was harshly criticized for even eating a meal with those who were uncircumcised; that is, those who did not follow the commands of the Old Testament.

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

Peter, though, is strong in confronting those who would deny the sacrament of baptism to the Gentiles, and argues for an acceptance of believers who do not follow the circumcision rules of Leviticus (which is also where we find a condemnation of homosexuality).

His challenge is stark and stunning: Before ordering that the Gentiles be baptized Peter asks “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

None of us, Peter says, has the moral authority to deny baptism to those who seek it, even if they do not follow the ancient laws. It is the flooding love of the Holy Spirit, which fell over that entire crowd, sinners and saints alike, that directs otherwise.

My Take: Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality

It is not our place, it seems, to sort out who should be denied a bond with God and the Holy Spirit of the kind that we find through baptism, communion, and marriage. The water will flow where it will.

Intriguingly, this rule will apply whether we see homosexuality as a sin or not. The water is for all of us. We see the same thing at the Last Supper, as Jesus gives the bread and wine to all who are there—even to Peter, who Jesus said would deny him, and to Judas, who would betray him.

The question before us now is not whether homosexuality is a sin, but whether being gay should be a bar to baptism or communion or marriage.

Your Take: Rethinking the Bible on homosexuality

The answer is in the Bible. Peter and Jesus offer a strikingly inclusive form of love and engagement. They hold out the symbols of Gods’ love to all. How arrogant that we think it is ours to parse out stingily!

I worship at St. Stephens, an Episcopal church in Edina, Minnesota. There is a river that flows around the back and side of that church with a delightful name: Minnehaha Creek. That is where we do baptisms.

The Rector stands in the creek in his robes, the cool water coursing by his feet, and takes an infant into his arms and baptizes her with that same cool water. The congregation sits on the grassy bank and watches, a gentle army.

Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter

At the bottom of the creek, in exactly that spot, is a floor of smooth pebbles. The water rushing by has rubbed off the rough edges, bit by bit, day by day. The pebbles have been transformed by that water into something new.

I suppose that, as Peter put it, someone could try to withhold the waters of baptism there. They could try to stop the river, to keep the water from some of the stones, like a child in the gutter building a barrier against the stream.

It won’t last, though. I would say this to those who would withhold the water of baptism, the joy of worship, or the bonds of marriage: You are less strong than the water, which will flow around you, find its path, and gently erode each wall you try to erect.

The redeeming power of that creek, and of the Holy Spirit, is relentless, making us all into something better and new.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Mark Osler.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Christianity • Episcopal • Gay marriage • Opinion

soundoff (15,115 Responses)
  1. Robert

    "Just like having some birth defects among all the births is normal but those with the birth defects are not a normal physical variance. This is physical, but being h0m0 is something that is unseen unproven able to be cured in most cases and behavior issue that has a bad record of social problems."

    The latest edition of the SPLC’s Intelligence Report also contains an authoritative article detailing the hate and misinformation coming from the Ntl Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), an “ex-gay” junk science group. This group is headed by radical extremist whose theories on sexual orientation are so bizarre that he actually believes Bozo the Clown can turn people gay. NARTH has become the primary source for the faulty research and scientific distortions used by the religious right to justify their continued opposition to LGBT equality.

    The latest edition of the SPLC’s Intelligence Report also contains an authoritative article detailing the hate and misinformation coming from the Ntl Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), an “ex-gay” junk science group. This group is headed by radical extremist whose theories on sexual orientation are so bizarre that he actually believes Bozo the Clown can turn people gay. NARTH has become the primary source for the faulty research and scientific distortions used by the religious right to justify their continued opposition to LGBT equality.

    August 20, 2012 at 1:32 pm |
  2. Lorraine

    Bob, none of those scriptures in Zecharah 12, and in Micah 5:1,2, are talking about jc, these are talking about YHWH, who was pierced, for He s speaking to us in this chapter, and in Micah 5:12 this is of David, and his future descendants, his 'seeds' that will, or is already here to rule, or work for YHWH, with the 'arm' of YHWH the branch in Jeremiah 33:14-22.

    There are other movements that must take place 'FIRST', those in YHWHs holy land will be run down to their boarders prophesied in Ezekiel 35, and confirmed in Ezekiel 36:1-6, of the controversy over Zion in Isaiah 34:8, that YHWH will solve, for His own vengeance for the recompense. YHWH Bless.

    August 20, 2012 at 12:27 pm |
    • Lorraine

      I also noticed that no one commented on this after they ask me for the dates of proof of the prophecies:

      Alright Mr. or Ms. Stiff necked, the book of Daniel has prophesied all that is taking place today, from the corrupt governments, to the false religions, all in the 4th kingdom prophesied in Daniel 2:40, described as the end times, also prophesied by Hosea 6:1-4, of the 2 days, meaning 2000 years, also of Ephraim in Hosea 9:11-17, who are the Palestinians today being punished from going away from YHWH doing idols, and here we are from this time of the 6th century, prophesied for now of the latter days that these occurrences will come, and they have.

      Also of Moses in Deuteronomy 32:17, prophesied the same thing for the 'latter' days of the future generations all doing idols from all of these religions, this is exactly where we are today, at the feet, and the toes of the dream by the king in Daniel 2:1-49, of these days of war, and false religions, and of crooked governments. Then of Jeremiah 50:37, of men becoming as women, and 50:38, the drought of our waters, and of people being mad about their idols, and of these days of war, and false religions, YHWH Bless, Praise YHWH.

      August 20, 2012 at 12:34 pm |
    • Shazam

      Predicting wars, droughts and crooked governments - wow! - how clever! Might as well predict that the Sun's light will begin to be evident on the eastern horizon tomorrow!

      Read some history, dear - wars, droughts and crooked governments (and rulers) have been around since time immemorial. Ditch YHWH and your bogus Hebrew "prophets".

      August 20, 2012 at 12:54 pm |
  3. Bob

    WOW IT WAS SO NICE NOT HAVING YEAH AROUND AND REPOSTING ALL THIS GARBAGE

    August 20, 2012 at 11:43 am |
    • YeahRight

      The only one posting garbage is you from the well known hate groups using false reports against the gay community.

      August 20, 2012 at 1:29 pm |
  4. Cindi

    LIKE YOU, I TAKE THE BIBLE SERIOUSLY! Many good people build their case against homosexuality almost entirely on the Bible. These folks value Scripture, and are serious about seeking its guidance in their lives. Unfortunately, many of them have never really studied what the Bible does and doesn’t say about homosexuality.

    We gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender Christians take the Bible seriously, too. Personally, I’ve spent more than 50 years reading, studying, memorizing, preaching, and teaching from the sacred texts. I earned my master’s and doctoral degrees at a conservative biblical seminary to better equip myself to “rightly divide the word of truth.” I learned Hebrew and Greek to gain a better understanding of the original words of the biblical texts. I studied the lives and times of the biblical authors to help me know what they were saying in their day so I could better apply it to my own.

    We must be open to new truth from Scripture.

    Even heroes of the Christian faith have changed their minds about the meaning of various biblical texts.

    It took a blinding light and a voice from heaven to help the apostle Paul change his mind about certain Hebrew texts. A sheet lowered from the sky filled with all kinds of animals helped the apostle Peter gain new insights into Jewish law.

    Jerry Falwell believed the Bible supported segregation in the church until a black shoeshine man asked him, “When will someone like me be allowed to become a member of your congregation?” Through those simple words, the Holy Spirit spoke new truth about the ancient biblical texts to the Rev. Falwell, and in obedience he ended segregation at Thomas Road Baptist Church.

    Even when we believe the Scriptures are “infallible” or “without error,” it’s terribly dangerous to think that our understanding of every biblical text is also without error. We are human. We are fallible. And we can misunderstand and misinterpret these ancient words — with tragic results.

    What if someone asked you, “Is there a chance you could be wrong about the way you’ve interpreted the biblical texts sometimes used to condemn homosexual orientation?” How would you respond? What does it say about you if you answer, “No, I could NOT be wrong”? I am asking you to re-examine these texts — carefully and prayerfully. Lives hang in the balance.

    If heroes of the Christian faith could change their minds about the meaning of certain biblical texts, shouldn’t we be prepared to reconsider our own interpretations of these ancient words when the Holy Spirit opens our minds and hearts to new truth? That’s why we study the Bible prayerfully, seeking the Spirit of Truth, God’s loving Spirit, to help us understand and apply these words to our lives.

    On the night he was betrayed, Jesus told his disciples he was going away from them for a while, but that the Father would send them a “Comforter,” an “Advocate,” the “Holy Spirit” who would “teach them all things.”

    I believe with all my heart that the Holy Spirit is still teaching us. When we reconsider the texts that are used by some people to condemn God’s gay children, we must fervently seek the Holy Spirit’s guidance, or we risk being misled by our own prejudices.

    The Bible is a book about God – not a book about human sexuality.

    The Bible is the story of God’s love for the world and the people of the world. It tells the history of God’s love at work rescuing, renewing, and empowering humankind. It was never intended to be a book about human sexuality. Certainly, you will agree.

    In fact, the Bible accepts sexual practices that we condemn and condemns sexual practices that we accept. Lots of them! Here are a few examples.

    DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
    If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.

    DEUTERONOMY 22:22
    If a married person has sex with someone else’s husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.

    MARK 10:1-12
    Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.

    LEVITICUS 18:19
    The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman’s period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.

    MARK 12:18-27
    If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.

    DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
    If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy’s genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.

    I’m certain you don’t agree with these teachings from the Bible about sex. And you shouldn’t. The list goes on: The Bible says clearly that sex with a prostitute is acceptable for the husband but not for the wife. Polygamy (more than one wife) is acceptable, as is a king’s having many concubines. (Solomon, the wisest king of all, had 1,000 concubines.) Slavery and sex with slaves, marriage of girls aged 11-13, and treatment of women as property are all accepted practices in the Scriptures. On the other hand, there are strict prohibitions against interracial marriage, birth control, discussing or even naming a sexual organ, and seeing one’s parents nude.

    Over the centuries the Holy Spirit has taught us that certain Bible verses should not be understood as God’s law for all time periods. Some verses are specific to the culture and time they were written, and are no longer viewed as appropriate, wise, or just.

    Often, the Holy Spirit uses science to teach us why those ancient words no longer apply to our modern times. During the last three decades, for example, organizations representing 1.5 million U.S. health professionals (doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, and educators) have stated definitively that homosexual orientation is as natural as heterosexual orientation; that sexual orientation is determined by a combination of yet unknown pre- and post–natal influences, and that it is dangerous and inappropriate to tell a homosexual that he or she could or should attempt to change his or her sexual orientation.

    While there are some people now living in heterosexual marriages who once perceived themselves to be gay, there are millions of gay and lesbian persons who have accepted their sexual orientation as a gift from God and live productive and deeply spiritual lives. The evidence from science and from the personal experience of gay and lesbian Christians demands that we at least consider whether the passages cited to condemn homosexual behavior should be reconsidered, just as other Bible verses that speak of certain sexual practices are no longer understood as God’s law for us in this day.

    August 20, 2012 at 10:38 am |
  5. Eirk

    "This is physical, but being h0m0 is something that is unseen unproven able to be cured in most cases and behavior issue that has a bad record of social problems."

    Being gay is not a choice science, in fact, is actually not in dispute on this matter.

    All major medical professional organizations concur that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed, from gay to straight or otherwise. The American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and European Psychological, Psychiatric, and Medical Associations all agree with this, as does the World Health Organization and the medical organizations of Japan, China, and most recently, Thailand. Furthermore, attempts to change one's sexual orientation can be psychologically damaging, and cause great inner turmoil and depression, especially for Christian gays and lesbians.

    Reparative therapy, also called conversion therapy or reorientation therapy, "counsels" LGBT persons to pray fervently and study Bible verses, often utilizing 12-step techniques that are used to treat sexual addictions or trauma. Such Christian councilors are pathologizing homosexuality, which is not a pathology but is a sexual orientation. Psychologically, that's very dangerous territory to tread on. All of the above-mentioned medical professional organizations, in addition to the American and European Counseling Associations, stand strongly opposed to any form of reparative therapy.

    In my home country, Norway, reparative therapy is officially considered to be ethical malpractice. But there are many countries that do not regulate the practice, and many others that remain largely silent and even passively supportive of it (such as the Philippines). Groups that operate such "therapy" in the Philippines are the Evangelical Bagong Pag-asa, and the Catholic Courage Philippines.

    The scientific evidence of the innateness of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism is overwhelming, and more peer-reviewed studies which bolster this fact are being added all the time. Science has long regarded sexual orientation – and that's all sexual orientations, including heterosexuality – as a phenotype. Simply put, a phenotype is an observable set of properties that varies among individuals and is deeply rooted in biology. For the scientific community, the role of genetics in sexuality is about as "disputable" as the role of evolution in biology.

    On the second point, that there is no conclusion that there is a "gay gene," they are right. No so-called gay gene has been found, and it's highly unlikely that one ever will. This is where conservative Christians and Muslims quickly say "See, I told you so! There's no gay gene, so being gay is a choice!"

    Take this interesting paragraph I found on an Evangelical website: "The attempt to prove that homosexuality is determined biologically has been dealt a knockout punch. An American Psychological Association publication includes an admission that there's no homosexual "gene" – meaning it's not likely that homosexuals are 'born that way.'"

    But that's not at all what it means, and it seems Evangelicals are plucking out stand-alone phrases from scientific reports and removing them from their context. This is known in academia as the fallacy of suppressed evidence. Interestingly, this is also what they have a habit of doing with verses from the Bible.

    This idea of sexuality being a choice is such a bizarre notion to me as a man of science. Many of these reparative "therapists" are basing this concept on a random Bible verse or two. When you hold those up against the mountain of scientific research that has been conducted, peer-reviewed, and then peer-reviewed again, it absolutely holds no water. A person's sexuality – whether heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual – is a very deep biological piece of who that person is as an individual.

    The fact that a so-called "gay gene" has not been discovered does not mean that homosexuality is not genetic in its causation. This is understandably something that can seem a bit strange to those who have not been educated in fields of science and advanced biology, and it is also why people who are not scientists ought not try to explain the processes in simple black-and-white terms. There is no gay gene, but there is also no "height gene" or "skin tone gene" or "left-handed gene." These, like sexuality, have a heritable aspect, but no one dominant gene is responsible for them.

    Many genes, working in sync, contribute to the phenotype and therefore do have a role in sexual orientation. In many animal model systems, for example, the precise genes involved in sexual partner selection have been identified, and their neuro-biochemical pathways have been worked out in great detail. A great number of these mechanisms have been preserved evolutionarily in humans, just as they are for every other behavioral trait we know (including heterosexuality).

    Furthermore, there are many biologic traits which are not specifically genetic but are biologic nonetheless. These traits are rooted in hormonal influences, contributed especially during the early stages of fetal development. This too is indisputable and based on extensive peer-reviewed research the world over. Such prenatal hormonal influences are not genetic per se, but are inborn, natural, and biologic nevertheless.

    Having said that, in the realm of legal rights, partnership rights, and anti-discrimination protections, the gay gene vs. choice debate is actually quite irrelevant. Whether or not something is a choice is not a suitable criterion for whether someone should have equal rights and protections. Religion is indisputably a choice, but that fact is a not a valid argument for discriminating against a particular religion.

    August 20, 2012 at 10:34 am |
  6. YeahRight

    "This is physical, but being h0m0 is something that is unseen unproven able to be cured in most cases and behavior issue that has a bad record of social problems."

    This is a lie the hate Christians groups are using for propaganda and the experts released a statement against them but they can't handle the real facts. Because of the aggressive promotion of efforts to change sexual orientation through therapy, a number of medical, health, and mental health professional organizations have issued public statements about the dangers of this approach. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

    Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience.

    August 20, 2012 at 10:29 am |
  7. Bob

    Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion (Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). Again, historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment: Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, and his extraordinarily quick death eliminated the need for the usual breaking of bones. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead.chance of fulfillment 1 in 10 to the 13th power

    August 20, 2012 at 7:33 am |
    • Bob is actually too stupid to even understand what is being asked of him!!

      Bob, you stupid sh!t, cite exact dates in the prophesies and show that the prophesied events then happened on those dates We want recent events too that we can check into or you won't get any cred. Epic fail for you so far.

      Anyone can prophesy all kinds of things and eventually they will happen since so much stuff does. What you have done so far is like saying it might rain this century.

      Your cited prophesies are therefore total and complete BULLSH!T unless you can cite exact dates in the prophesies and show that the events happened on those dates..

      So put up the prophesied exact dates and prove that the events then happened on those dates, or shut up about your delusions already and no soup for you little dearie.

      August 20, 2012 at 10:05 am |
    • Bob

      Wow it was so nice not having the drone of yeah around for a couple of days, now we see the typical reposts that he does that didn't make sense the first time. As for exact dates some prophecies happened thousands of years from when the prophecy was given so exact dates really wont happen but most are within a time frame. The events that happened are not inconsequential and not a normal act of life so there would be no way to say that these things could be random or predicted. As for not believing I wouldn't expect anything different from this poster but its a shame that they choose to dwell in darkness. There is a prophecy that is iin our time that just a few years ago it would have seemed impossible and that is a one world government. The Bible was called crazy for predicting such a thing and now we see the movement towards it. Well how about giving God and the Bible a big praise for that awesome prophesy we see coming true. NO other religious book has done these phrophices and with this accuracy. In fact no other book gives you the beginning and the end.

      August 20, 2012 at 11:39 am |
    • YeahRight

      "Wow it was so nice not having the drone of yeah around for a couple of days,"

      This is how bad your reading comprehension is I was posting yesterday. Duh!

      August 20, 2012 at 1:36 pm |
  8. Bob

    In approximately 700 B.C. the prophet Micah named the tiny village of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel's Messiah (Micah 5:2). The fulfillment of this prophecy in the birth of Christ is one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history.chance of fulfillment 1 in 10 to the 5 th power

    August 20, 2012 at 7:30 am |
    • myweightinwords

      The problem with this statement is proving 1) that Jesus was Israel's Messiah, and 2) that the story wasn't modified to make it appear to fulfill prophecy.

      1) The Jewish people do not accept Jesus as their Messiah, and in fact most insist that the Christian religion misunderstands the term and the prophecy.
      2) If the new testament account of Jesus being born in Bethlehem are true, one would expect there to exist, somewhere in Roman record of the time, an accounting of the supposed census which was the cause of Joseph and Mary traveling at such a time.

      August 20, 2012 at 8:06 am |
    • Bob

      If the Jews believed in Jesus they wouldn't be Jews or at least they would be Jews for Jesus. As for the account in Roman records have you looked?? this is a account from Josephus
      Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

      August 20, 2012 at 9:50 am |
    • Bob is actually too stupid to even understand what is being asked of him!!

      Bob, you stupid sh!t, cite exact dates in the prophesies and show that the prophesied events then happened on those dates We want recent events too that we can check into or you won't get any cred. Epic fail for you so far.

      Anyone can prophesy all kinds of things and eventually they will happen since so much stuff does. What you have done so far is like saying it might rain this century.

      Your cited prophesies are therefore total and complete BULLSH!T unless you can cite exact dates in the prophesies and show that the events happened on those dates..

      So put up the prophesied exact dates and prove that the events then happened on those dates, or shut up about your delusions already and no soup for you little one.

      August 20, 2012 at 10:06 am |
    • myweightinwords

      The problem with Josephus, Bob, is that many scholars believe that the section you are quoting is something added much later by someone other than Josephus. The writing style is not the same as other passages, and as opposed to his general stated purpose of recording history, this section is commentary.

      Aside from that, we were specifically talking about the Roman census that is the purported reason Joseph hauled a pregnant and ready to deliver Mary all the way to Bethlehem. Where in Roman records is that census? We have much of Roman history of the time period, records of many actions of the Roman government, but to date no one has found independent confirmation of any such census at the time.

      August 20, 2012 at 10:19 am |
    • myweightinwords

      Bob,

      If the Jews believed in Jesus they wouldn't be Jews or at least they would be Jews for Jesus.

      Actually, if one were to study Jewish culture, religion, scripture, you would find that the Jewish understanding of the word "messiah" is radically different than the Christian one, and it could be argued that if Jesus had actually BEEN the Jewish messiah, the Jews would still be Jews.

      I have known a few Jewish folks in my day, and at least one Jew who converted to Christianity. He eventually went back to his original faith, when he came to the realization that the messiah Christianity offered was not the one he had been looking for.

      August 20, 2012 at 10:26 am |
  9. myweightinwords

    Bob,

    If I may ask, why do you post the same comment on multiple boards? It becomes more difficult to converse when each conversation veers off in a different directions.

    It is also frustrating to see you repeatedly post the same things without back up or citing sources, and after others (myself included) have attempted to engage you in dialog regarding the accuracy of your statements and you ignore those conversations in favor of posting the same things over again.

    I hope to further converse with you. Though I will warn you that I dislike jumping to conclusions and prefer to create a basis for the conversation from which we can build without misunderstanding. I have found in the past that others grow impatient with me.

    Hope the new week treats you well.

    August 20, 2012 at 12:33 am |
  10. Bob

    So Tommy which is it atheist or socialist?? or both??

    August 19, 2012 at 11:55 pm |
    • Fallacy Spotting 101

      Post by 'Bob' is a non sequitur.

      http://www.fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html

      August 20, 2012 at 12:02 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You weren't the class valedictorian, were you, Boob?

      August 20, 2012 at 5:59 pm |
  11. Bob

    In the manufacturing process some will be defective and taken off the production line. Its the law of percentages. That is a normal occurrence but if you allowed the defective product to go out into the public then that would be a product out in public's hands that doesn't work as its supposed to that is not normal. This is how they get around calling gays normal. That there will be a certain amount of defective product is normal but that the product doesn't work like it should is not normal. Out of all the births to have some gay is normal but that they are gay is not normal. Just like having some birth defects among all the births is normal but those with the birth defects are not a normal physical variance. This is physical, but being h0m0 is something that is unseen unproven able to be cured in most cases and behavior issue that has a bad record of social problems.

    August 19, 2012 at 4:29 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Do you have to remind yourself to breathe?

      Nobody can be this stupid.

      August 19, 2012 at 5:03 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Were your godfathers abnormal, Boob? Are you?

      August 19, 2012 at 8:08 pm |
    • Bob

      They were gay that is not normal although they did function in society unlike what you mostly see in the gay community. The only reason you ever gave is one of altruism that gays should not be denied marriage so what is the real reason,, we know you are not altruistic.

      August 19, 2012 at 9:56 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      The only reason there is, Bob, is that it is wrong to deny others the rights I have. There is nothing "wrong" with gays, you idiot. They're no more abnormal than you are. They're no more sinful than you are. They're not lesser beings than you are.

      Your asinine comment about your godfathers is telling.

      You're not only stupid, Booby, you're sick and twisted.

      August 19, 2012 at 10:17 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Booby, you write all your posts as if you are either a closeted gay, or as if you are a "reformed" gay (although there isn't any such thing). You speak of the 'gay community' as if you knew all about it. If that's the case, then you either are a member or were one at one time.

      Either way, you're as gay as May Day.

      August 19, 2012 at 10:21 pm |
    • Damocles

      So, wait, are you suggesting removing 'defective' product? Let's not stop with being gay Bob. Let's remove anyone who doesn't conform to your idea of normalcy. Gather up like-minded people and decide who belongs and who doesn't.

      August 19, 2012 at 10:25 pm |
    • Tom A. To

      Belief Blog will never have an idiot blogger like Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son in a decade or two.

      August 19, 2012 at 10:34 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      What's the matter, dear. Stick up your azz?

      By your inept use of the English language, I deduce you are none other than TOOL Tom, back for more.

      What is your damage, dolt?

      August 19, 2012 at 10:35 pm |
    • Tom A. To

      The reply above proves my previous post.

      August 19, 2012 at 10:40 pm |
    • Bob

      Wow Tom you have words for just about everything but I guess intelligence and diversity in learning doesn't figure into your knowledge base along with not answering questions. OK so we have a atheist with no dog in the fight that cant explain or understand a well rounded knowledge of things,, says they are altruistic,, so we know you lie,, I would say that pretty much sums up all atheists.

      August 19, 2012 at 10:42 pm |
    • Bob

      So Tom what do you do the 2 to 3 days your not on the board???

      August 19, 2012 at 10:46 pm |
    • Tom A. To

      It seems like that one or a couple of nerves connected to Tom Tom's frontal lobe had snapped. Look at him/her/it, he's/she's/it's going to snap.

      August 19, 2012 at 10:47 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Who's "we", Boob? You and your gerbil?

      You've got to be a Poe. Nobody could be as stupid as you appear.

      August 19, 2012 at 10:48 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      TOOL, you can't be serious. Are you new here?

      You and Boob have a good time playing doctor with each other.

      August 19, 2012 at 10:50 pm |
    • Tom A. To

      Tom, Tom, Piper's Son

      Yes, we all agree that you're a "TOOL". You can now quit advertising it on this blog.

      August 19, 2012 at 10:57 pm |
    • Bob

      tommy girl you do quite a few posts here and at the other topics that must keep you busy

      August 19, 2012 at 11:07 pm |
    • Fallacy Spotting 101

      Root post by 'Bob' is a False Analogy.

      http://www.fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html

      August 20, 2012 at 12:03 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      I see TOOL Tom has disappeared yet again. What a shock.

      August 20, 2012 at 6:03 pm |
  12. Rain on Lorraine

    Lorraine, anyone can prophesy all kinds of things generally and eventually they will happen since so much stuff does.

    Your cited prophesies are therefore total BULLSH!T unless you can cite exact dates in the prophesies and show that the events happened on those dates. We want recent events too that we can check into or you won't get any cred.

    So put up the dates or shut up, and no soup for you little dearie.

    August 19, 2012 at 4:21 pm |
    • Bob

      The Bible accurately foretells specific events-in detail-many years, sometimes centuries, before they occur. Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors.
      (The remaining 500 or so reach into the future and may be seen unfolding as days go by.) Since the probability for any one of these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance averages less than one in ten (figured very conservatively) and since the prophecies are for the most part independent of one another, the odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than one in 102000 (that is 1 with 2000 zeros written after it)!

      August 19, 2012 at 4:39 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Nonsense, Boob. The bible does no such thing; you simply manipulate the descriptions of events so they'll conform to your silly beliefs. People claimed the same crap about Nostradamus and Jean Dixon.

      Get off it.

      August 19, 2012 at 4:45 pm |
    • Bob

      One is that Israel would be a nation again with their own language it happened in 1948 and they do speak their own language. No other people have spoken their own language after coming back and most of the 5 times this happened haven't come to their own land the same that was taken from them. So now lets see what you have to offer in way of your proof.
      Atheist hate the US and they hate themselves yet while they want to conform that which is good to that which they hate. Kind of like a pig in the mud or dog eating its vomit.

      August 19, 2012 at 4:52 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Silly Boob. Your desperation is all too obvious.

      You can believe whatever you want; it won't make it fact. Gays aren't abnormal and they aren't evil. They're people who have lives just like yours, Boob. They have jobs, they have families, they pay taxes, they own homes, they are equal to you in every way.

      Get over yourself, you phobic old coot. You're not going to change anyone's mind here and nobody is going to suddenly become straight because you call him an abomination.

      Why are you wasting your short life bloviating? Why aren't you playing with your grandkids? Helping the sick and the poor?

      Is this place your life? It surely appears to be. What a waste. If you believe in a god, do you really think he'd want you to waste your life here?

      August 19, 2012 at 5:02 pm |
    • Bob

      Tom actually its a good question but first why do you take you time to be here??

      August 19, 2012 at 6:23 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Look at my posts, you moron. How long are they? Do you really think I spend as much time here as you do with your interminable diatribes?

      Sh!t or get off the pot, Bob. You don't have all the time in the world left. Do you really think this is a wise use of it? What return are you getting for the investment?

      My "investment" is a matter of minutes. You spend far longer composing your idiotic, ridiculous drivel.

      August 19, 2012 at 6:34 pm |
    • Lorraine

      Alright Mr. or Ms. Stiffnecked, the book of Daniel has prophesied all that is taking place today, from the corrupt governments, to the false religions, all in the 4th kingdom prophesied in Daniel 2:40, described as the end times, also prophesied by Hosea 6:1-4, of the 2 days, meaning 2000 years, also of Ephraim in Hosea 9:11-17, who are the Palestinians today being punished from going away from YHWH doing idols, and here we are from this time of the 6th century, prophesied for now of the latter days that these occurrences will come, and they have.

      Also of Moses in Deuteronomy 32:17, prophesied the same thing for the 'latter' days of the future generations all doing idols from all of these religions, this is exactly where we are today, at the feet, and the toes of the dream by the king in Daniel 2:1-49, of these days of war, and false religions, and of crooked governments. Then of Jeremiah 50:37, of men becoming as women, and 50:38, the drought of our waters, and of people being mad about their idols, and of these days of war, and false religions, YHWH Bless, Praise YHWH.

      August 19, 2012 at 7:03 pm |
    • Bob

      Tom What do you do in the two to three days your off the board?? Do you have to travel?? Its at regular intervals so I would say business. I was out riding my motorcycle today and its really nice when I take it to the gym or church so unless the Lord takes me I should have a quite a few years left. Experience doesn't always equate with age I have been blessed in my life to do quite a few things. Just to let you know something pretty funny my god fathers were gay and in a committed relationship. So that should answer a couple of questions for you.

      August 19, 2012 at 7:31 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      No, it doesn't, you sh!twit.

      Answer this, if you can, you moronic dolt: Do you think you're really going to make someone who's gay become straight? That you're going to convince someone who's gay to remain celibate for life? That people really give a ripe fvck whether you approve of gay marriage?

      Really?

      August 19, 2012 at 7:35 pm |
    • Bob

      Your not asking the right questions.

      August 19, 2012 at 8:03 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Holy fvck, you're dumb. How many times do you need to be told that it's "YOU'RE", a short form of "YOU ARE", not "YOUR", a possessive, Boob?

      No wonder you dropped out before you graduated.

      August 19, 2012 at 8:05 pm |
    • Rain on Lorraine

      Lorraine, again, we want specific dates. Day and date. Spit em out, if you can. And we want specifics this time. Anyone can prophesy all kinds of things generally and eventually they will happen since so much stuff does. What you have done so far is so general and with commonplace events that is like saying it might rain this year.

      Your cited prophesies are therefore total BULLSH!T unless you can cite exact dates in the prophesies and show that the events happened on those dates. We want recent events too that we can check into or you won't get any cred.

      So put up the dates or shut up, and no soup for you little dearie, you flatchested little donut.

      August 20, 2012 at 12:07 am |
    • Rain on Lorraine

      Stupid Bob, what we are asking for are prophesies that foretell an exact day and date of a specific event. No one so far has been able to cite even one. So give it a try, stupid, but you will undoubtedly fail.

      August 20, 2012 at 12:11 am |
    • Rain on Lorraine

      Bob and Lorraine, you stupid sh!ts, cite exact dates in the prophesies and show that the events happened on those dates. We want recent events too that we can check into or you won't get any cred. Epic fail for you so far.

      August 20, 2012 at 12:13 am |
  13. Lorraine

    yeahright, unbelievable, 'holiness code' lol, how can anyone overlook the Creator of all Life YHWH, this is what is wrong with christians they 'believe' that they can just change YHWHs Word, and is why we are all under this mess in the world now, going against YHWH. Well, it is prophesied that many will have to be convinced the hard way in the future prophecy in Zechariah 12. YHWH Bless.

    August 19, 2012 at 3:31 pm |
    • A Muse

      Lorraine,

      Maybe you are headed in the right direction. Rejecting the Christ legend is a first step. Now, keep going... and find out that the ancient Middle Eastern Hebrew ethnocentric war god, YHWH, is a fantasy, just like all of the other gods dreamed up by humans.

      August 19, 2012 at 3:40 pm |
    • Lorraine

      Again, YHWH says that a man should not lay with another man as he does with a woman, this is His Word, and as He teaches us, the whole world that YHWH changes not in Malachi 3:6. Everyone is responsible for their own righteousness, and is why the wrath brought upon the earth, in Jeremiah 25, suits the Creator YHWH on the people, and what His Word also says in Ezekiel 14:14-23. YHWH Bless.

      August 19, 2012 at 3:45 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You're off your rocker, Loopy.

      August 19, 2012 at 3:48 pm |
    • JWT

      It's perfectly easy and understandable to overlook your opinion of who is the creator of all life. I was not created by it. I like all people was created by parents with no supernatural force required.

      August 19, 2012 at 3:51 pm |
    • A Muse

      Lorraine,

      Old Moses the magician would be giving a wry smile that his ruse has been gobbled up by another sucker.

      August 19, 2012 at 3:53 pm |
    • Lorraine

      This too was propheseid that those against YHWH would do, ridicule, as in Isaiah 53:1-4. PraiseYHWH.

      August 19, 2012 at 4:05 pm |
    • A Muse

      Lorraine,

      Now that's just *genius* - think up a huge co.ck & bull story and then "prophesy" that folks will ridicule it .... duh?!

      August 19, 2012 at 4:16 pm |
    • Rain on Lorraine

      Lorraine, anyone can prophesy all kinds of things generally and eventually they will happen since so much stuff does.

      Your cited prophesies are therefor total BULLSH!T unless you can cite exact dates in the prophesies and show that the events happened on those dates. We want recent events too that we can check into or you won't get any cred.

      So put up the dates or shut up, and no soup for you little dearie.

      August 19, 2012 at 4:18 pm |
  14. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

    Bob vomits:
    Hey guys don't fall into the trap of these atheists, gays and supporters that hate anything to do with what is right and true and honest. That’s what they do that’s who they are unlike most gays. Tom is one of the worst and doesn’t give a rats azz for you if you’re not gay or endorse gay ideals or actually care for anyone.
    ----

    Hahahha. Looks like I hit a home run. Bob, you're beyond stupid. Thanks for providing absolute proof yet again.

    August 19, 2012 at 1:32 pm |
  15. 2Cents

    The NAACP has passed a resolution endorsing same-sex marriage as a civil right, putting it stamp on an issue that has divided the black community.

    The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People's board voted at a leadership retreat in Miami on Saturday to back a resolution supporting marriage equality; calling the position consistent with the equal protection provision of the US constitution.

    "The mission of the NAACP has always been to ensure political, social and economic equality of all people;" board chairwoman Roslyn M Brock said in a statement. "We have and will oppose efforts to codify discrimination into law."

    Same-sex marriage is legal in six states and the District of Columbia, but 31 states have passed amendments to ban it.

    The NAACP vote came about two weeks after President Barack Obama announced his support for gay marriage, setting off a flurry of political activity in a number of states. Obama's announcement followed vice-president Joe Biden's declaration in a television interview that he was "absolutely comfortable" with gay couples marrying.

    "Civil marriage is a civil right and a matter of civil law. The NAACP's support for marriage equality is deeply rooted in the fourteenth amendment of the United States constitution and equal protection of all people" said NAACP president Benjamin Todd Jealous, a strong backer of gay rights.

    Gay marriage has divided the black community, with many religious leaders opposing it. In California, exit polls showed about 70% of black people opposed same-sex marriage in 2008. In Maryland, black religious leaders helped derail a gay marriage bill last year. But state lawmakers passed a gay marriage bill this year.

    Pew Research Center polls have found that African Americans have become more supportive of same-sex marriage in recent years, but remain less supportive than other groups. A poll conducted in April showed 39% of African-Americans favor gay marriage, compared with 47% of white people. The poll showed 49% of black people and 43% of white people are opposed.

    The Human Rights Campaign, a leading gay rights advocacy group, applauded the NAACP's step.

    "We could not be more pleased with the NAACP's history-making vote – which is yet another example of the traction marriage equality continues to gain in every community," HRC president Joe Solmonese said in a statement.

    August 19, 2012 at 11:59 am |
  16. JS

    Christians are increasingly divided over the issue of the acceptance and inclusion of gay persons into the church. The debate itself is usually framed as essentially pitting the Bible, on one hand, against compassion and social justice on the other. Our Christian hearts, runs the (usually impassioned) argument, compel us to grant full moral and legal equality to gay and lesbian people; our Christian faith, comes the (usually impassioned) rebuttal, compels us to cleave, above all, to the word of God.

    Compassion for others is the fundamental cornerstone of Christian ethics; the Bible is the bedrock of the Christian faith. What Christian can possibly choose between the two?

    The answer is that no Christian is called upon to make that choice. The text of the Bible on one hand, and full equality for gay and lesbian people on the other, is a false dichotomy. God would not ask or expect Christians to ever choose between their heart and their faith.

    Reconciling the Bible with unqualified acceptance and equality for LGBT people does not necessitate discounting, recasting, deconstructing or reinterpreting the Bible. All it takes is reading those passages of the Bible wherein homosexuality is mentioned with the same care we would any other passage of the book.

    We can trust God; we can trust that God is loving.

    And we can trust that we can - and that we certainly should - take God, in this matter, as in all things, at his Word.

    If there is no clearly stated directive in the Bible to marginalize and ostracize gay people; then Christians continuing to do so is morally indefensible; and must cease.

    What cannot be denied is that Christians have caused a great deal of pain and suffering to gay persons, by:

    Banning their participation in the church, thus depriving them of the comforts and spiritual fruits of the church;

    Banning their participation in the sacrament of marriage, thus depriving them of the comforts and spiritual fruits of marriage;

    Damaging the bonds between gays and their straight family members, thus weakening the comforts and spiritual fruits of family life for both gays and their families; and

    Using their position within society as spokespersons for God to proclaim that all homosexual relations are disdained by God, thus knowingly contributing to the cruel persecution of a minority population.

    Christians do not deny that they have done these things. However, they contend that they have no choice but to do these things, based on what they say is a clear directive about homosexuals delivered to them by God through the Holy Bible. They say that the Bible defines all homosexual acts as sinful, instructs them to exclude from full participation in the church all non-repentant sinners (including gay people), and morally calls upon them to publicly (or at least resolutely) denounce homosexual acts.

    Without an explicit directive from God to exclude and condemn homosexuals, the Christian community's treatment of gay persons is in clear violation of what Jesus and the New Testament writers pointedly identified as the most important commandment from God: to love one's neighbor as one's self.

    The gay community has cried out for justice to Christians, who have a biblically mandated obligation to be just. Because the mistreatment of gay persons by Christians is so severe, the directive from God to marginalize and ostracize gay people must be clear and explicit in the Bible. If there is no such clearly stated directive, then the continued Christian mistreatment of gay and lesbian people is morally indefensible, and must cease.

    The Bible is not a contract, or a set of instructions, with each passage spelling out something clear and specific. It is not a rulebook for being Christian. It is instead a widely varying collection of poetry, history, proverbs, moral directives, parables, letters and wondrous visions. We would be foolish to fail to understand that not everything in the Bible is a commandment, and that Christians cannot take any small section of the Bible out of its own context, and still hope to gain a clear understanding of its meaning.

    We can be confident that Paul was not writing to, or about, gay people, because he simply could not have been, any more than he could have written about smart phones or iPads. We do not know what Paul might write or say today about gay people. All we know is that in the New Testament he wrote about promiscuous, predatory, non-consensual same-sex acts between heterosexuals.

    If we are to rely on the Bible, then we must take its text as it is. It does condemn homosexual (and heterosexual) sex that is excessive, exploitive and outside of marriage. It does not, however, address the state of homosexuality itself - much less the subject of homosexual acts between a married gay couple. Christians therefore have no Bible-based moral justification for themselves condemning such acts.

    Because there was no concept of gay marriage when the Bible was written, the Bible does not, and could not, address the sinfulness of homosexual acts done within the context of gay marriage.

    The Bible routinely, clearly and strongly classifies all sex acts outside of the bonds of marriage as sinful. But, because there was no concept of gay people when the Bible was written, the Bible does not, and could not, address the sinfulness of homosexual acts done within the context of marriage. Christians therefore have no biblical basis for themselves condemning such acts.

    In fact, by denying marriage equality to gay people, Christians are compelling gay couples to sin, because their intimacy must happen outside of marriage, and is therefore, by biblical definition, sinful.

    Being personally repelled by homosexual sex doesn't make homosexual sex a sin.

    Christians cite as additional evidence of the inherent sinfulness of homosexual acts their raw emotional response to such acts. It is understandable that many straight people find homosexual sex repugnant (just as many gay people find heterosexual sex repugnant). It is normal for any one of us to be viscerally repelled by the idea of sex between, or with, people for whom we personally have no sexual attraction. It may feel to a straight Christian that their instinctive negative reaction to homosexual sex arises out of the Bible. But all of us necessarily view the Bible through the lens of our own experiences and prejudices, and we must be very careful to ensure that lens does not distort our vision or understanding of God's sacrosanct word.

    "The greatest of these is love."

    The overriding message of Jesus was love. Jesus modeled love; Jesus preached love; Jesus was love. Christians desiring to do and live the will of Jesus are morally obliged to always err on the side of love.

    August 19, 2012 at 11:43 am |
  17. Bob

    This is a awesome story about one mans journeys from gay to straight and a man of God
    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=videoseries&w=640&h=390]

    August 19, 2012 at 9:56 am |
    • YeahRight

      "This is a awesome story about one mans journeys from gay to straight and a man of God"

      This is Bob's prejudice showing since the experts in this country released this statement against prejudice and hateful people like Bob. Because of the aggressive promotion of efforts to change sexual orientation through therapy, a number of medical, health, and mental health professional organizations have issued public statements about the dangers of this approach. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      August 19, 2012 at 11:49 am |
  18. Bob

    Hey guys don't fall into the trap of these atheists, gays and supporters that hate anything to do with what is right and true and honest. That’s what they do that’s who they are unlike most gays. Tom is one of the worst and doesn’t give a rats azz for you if you’re not gay or endorse gay ideals or actually care for anyone. Perverted distorted unable to have a normal give and take in a conversation. That’s because not only don’t they care but they are there to do one thing to disrupt and brutalize normal caring people. As witnessed this testimony to a girl that has come from death to life and they just want to pee on this just like a dog marking his territory. They need to make sure that everyone is as miserable as themselves otherwise what would be the reason to bad mouth a wonderful conversion. They are a extremely bad reflection on gays and any group associated with them

    Ok line up three men and look at them intently. One is gay one is straight and one is a ped now look at them carefully can you see what makes them different. NO I didn’t think so but this is the hoax that the agenda wants you to believe. That there is a difference. Well now line up three men and they are all straight. See a difference even though one likes beer one likes alcohol and one doesn’t like to drink at all. No I didn’t think so ok now line up a person with a birth defect and one that doesn’t have one do you see a difference yes I can see the difference. The agenda wants you to believe that we are supposed to be able to pick out and say that a s=ual desire is easily spotted, normal , and physical but it is not. What makes one person like coffee and another not physcs cannot tell you. So what is the solution call them all normal and variants on being normal. Now when we see how these people act and the decisions they make then we see if they are normal. The men’s S-ual desires are all different and reflect a preference not built into genes just like the preference for beer wine or nothing. The agenda and atheists also want to say it is a normal variation which it is not. Just as the person with the birth defect doesn’t look the same the decisions we make because of our desires look that much different. Even in the Bible birth defects happened such as the sacrifices that the Jews started to bring had defects and God said that it was not right so it is with people of the wrong preference. It is a decision based on a s=ual desire not a physical difference in that person’s body. They do happen it’s not good sometimes but it does happen now we say that it is normal in the course of the birth process that we will wind up with some babies that are not normal and have birth defects but this is a normal percentage not a normal outcome. This is what the gays and atheists would like you to believe that just because there is a frequency of birth defects that it makes them normal. But in this case we can see they are not normal but in the case of the three men other than the outward differences in hair or eye color we cannot see any difference. Wait till one speaks or moves or makes decisions based on what they like and now you see the result of differences in the desire of each although each has all the same equipment. Phycs pulled this slight of hand because they didn’t feel that they could establish what is normal. They lost the moral compass to establish what is normal and should be accepted. the basis for this was looking at how different people act and knowing that some will act differently they said this is a normal person based on the percentages, Not based on the differences that makes a persons decisions. So they said we know that there are people out there with this problem they make up a percentage of the population therefore if they can function with a defect we will treat them when they feel they have a problem. Now the fact that the percentages of problems are much higher with the gays is no secret. There is no stat that is in favor of gays. The atheists and the agenda hold up the successful ones but that percentage is so small that its probably less that a 1/10th of 1 percent. You compare these stats to the amount of people who are straight and have a good life and you will see something like 60 percent of say billions of people . So the shear number of straights the percentages will be different you have to take into account the number of people you are talking about and the percentage in order to come up with a true number. This is also a slight of hand by the gays and atheists.
    The goals of the gays atheists and socialist all work pretty well together. But it is not the society that anyone is used to even the kids that grownup today with much looser morals that when I was younger will not recognize the US that these people want to transform it into. This is not even talking about the heritage of the US that will be thrown out the window or the blessings of God on this great nation. So when you see that these people want to change the very fabric of society look at some examples we have of when that has happened. Rome. Sodom and Gomorrah and most free people when moral guide lines were lost led to the decay and destruction of society. Just because we see countries with some of these things accepted doesn’t mean that it is good. You have to look back see the changes and project forward to see what will become of this nation. It is not one generation it takes many. Just like the 60s the courts took morals out of the schools now we have TV programs with unwed 16 year old mothers. The decision hence the result just like the gays just like the path of this country. There is no society that once starting down this road didn’t lead to the destruction of that society.

    August 19, 2012 at 9:44 am |
    • .

      Ok line up three men and look at them intently. One is gay one is straight and one is a ped now look at them carefully can you see what makes them different. NO I didn’t think so but this is the hoax that the agenda wants you to believe.

      There is no hoax. They are all men. All of them equal. All of them human. They all have needs and desires, rights and duties. They all are expected to live according to the law of the land that they live in. They all have the freedom to speak, to believe or not believe, to seek happiness, to love and be loved. Every one of them.

      That there is a difference. Well now line up three men and they are all straight. See a difference even though one likes beer one likes alcohol and one doesn’t like to drink at all.

      How does this even relate to sexuality? The one who doesn't drink might actually be an alcoholic, dry and in recovery, but still an alcoholic. The one who likes hard liquor may only have one or two a month. The beer drinker might get wasted every single night. What's your point?

      No I didn’t think so ok now line up a person with a birth defect and one that doesn’t have one do you see a difference yes I can see the difference.

      Not necessarily. It depends on the defect.

      The agenda wants you to believe that we are supposed to be able to pick out and say that a s=ual desire is easily spotted, normal , and physical but it is not.

      Which agenda, Bob? If there is an agenda (there isn't), the focus is more on making people understand that it DOESN'T MATTER whether or not you can "spot" sexual orientation, or even that there is a difference in orientation...what matters is that we are all human and we all have the same basic rights.

      What makes one person like coffee and another not physcs cannot tell you. So what is the solution call them all normal and variants on being normal. Now when we see how these people act and the decisions they make then we see if they are normal.

      In actuality there is probably a fair amount of physical and mental components to the reasons for why one person likes coffee and another prefers tea. It has to do with culture, upbringing, exposure, need, and the way your body interprets the flavor, the way your body reacts to the beverage. The reasons behind it don't matter though in the long wrong, because it is all just a part of modern society.

      The men’s S-ual desires are all different and reflect a preference not built into genes just like the preference for beer wine or nothing.

      Actually, science is continually showing us that while no one gene is defined as being responsible for a man or woman being attracted to their own gender, the complex reasoning behind it, much like many other parts of being a human being, is in fact based in genetics, in the physical. Of course there are other complexities at play there, but in the end, like a person's taste in beverage, it is no more unnatural than a person's taste in beverage.

      The agenda and atheists also want to say it is a normal variation which it is not.

      Considering that the rough percentage of LGBT folk remains constant over the course of the decades that we've studied it, statistically speaking it is exactly that, a variation from normal. A standard deviation if you will. Standard. Normal.

      Just as the person with the birth defect doesn’t look the same the decisions we make because of our desires look that much different. Even in the Bible birth defects happened such as the sacrifices that the Jews started to bring had defects and God said that it was not right so it is with people of the wrong preference.

      Birth defects are caused by genetic anomalies, diseases and toxins ingested/consumed by the mother during pregnancy. You can not relate birth defects to homosexuality.

      It is a decision based on a s=ual desire not a physical difference in that person’s body.

      When was the last time you made a decision to be attracted to someone? In my experience it's something that happens regardless of your desire for it to happen.

      They do happen it’s not good sometimes but it does happen now we say that it is normal in the course of the birth process that we will wind up with some babies that are not normal and have birth defects but this is a normal percentage not a normal outcome.

      You're talking in circles here, Bob. Birth defects are a sad fact today due to any number of causes. They are not normal, the deviation is not standard, it rises and falls based on environmental causes and the behavior of the parents. It is unfortunate and far too common, but it isn't normal.

      This is what the gays and atheists would like you to believe that just because there is a frequency of birth defects that it makes them normal.

      Statistics says that it is. Math. Has nothing to do with what atheists and gays say.

      But in this case we can see they are not normal but in the case of the three men other than the outward differences in hair or eye color we cannot see any difference. Wait till one speaks or moves or makes decisions based on what they like and now you see the result of differences in the desire of each although each has all the same equipment. Phycs pulled this slight of hand because they didn’t feel that they could establish what is normal.

      I'm beginning to think that you do not understand the word "normal" Bob. Of course, the definition varies slightly depending on the usage of the word, but accepted understanding is that normal=common. If there are a hundred men standing in a room and all of them are white, it might be assumed that for that group, being white is normal. If in that group, 1 of them is gay and 1 of them is bi, it can be assumed that being straight is normal. HOWEVER, if in the next 99 rooms there are 100 men in each room, and in each room 1 of them is gay and 1 of them is bi, it becomes normal that 10% of the men are gay and 10% of the men are bi. Likewise, if there are a few rooms with 2 bi men and some with 2 gay men, or a number with none of either, but the overall number when taken as a whole is that of the 10,000 men, 1000 are gay and 1000 are bi, normal is still 10% of each in the population.

      They lost the moral compass to establish what is normal and should be accepted. the basis for this was looking at how different people act and knowing that some will act differently they said this is a normal person based on the percentages,

      Again, that is how normal is defined. Morality does not define normal.

      Not based on the differences that makes a persons decisions. So they said we know that there are people out there with this problem they make up a percentage of the population therefore if they can function with a defect we will treat them when they feel they have a problem. Now the fact that the percentages of problems are much higher with the gays is no secret.

      Actually, the "problems" in the LGBT population can largely be traced to the treatment of LGBT individuals by the people around them. Anyone who grows up in a family where they are told repeatedly that they are evil, sinful beings for something that they can not control is going to have issues.

      There is no stat that is in favor of gays.

      If you actually displayed any understanding of statistics, this statement might have meaning, but it's clear that you don't.

      The atheists and the agenda hold up the successful ones but that percentage is so small that its probably less that a 1/10th of 1 percent. You compare these stats to the amount of people who are straight and have a good life and you will see something like 60 percent of say billions of people . So the shear number of straights the percentages will be different you have to take into account the number of people you are talking about and the percentage in order to come up with a true number. This is also a slight of hand by the gays and atheists.

      Again, with the clear demonstration of how little you understand statistics. You can not compare the two groups for the simple reason that they are not equal. They do not have equal opportunities, equal rights. That alone means you can not compare them in the areas you are trying to.

      The goals of the gays atheists and socialist all work pretty well together. But it is not the society that anyone is used to even the kids that grownup today with much looser morals that when I was younger will not recognize the US that these people want to transform it into.

      Change isn't the enemy, Bob. Progress, the continual improvement of the world in which we live should be the goal. Equal rights for all, without regard to skin color, ethnic heritage, economic status, religion (or lack thereof), sexual orientation, marital status, whether or not you have children, what school you went to or what your politics are.

      This is not even talking about the heritage of the US that will be thrown out the window or the blessings of God on this great nation.

      Our heritage? The one of rebellion? The one of ensuring freedom? The one in which we said "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."? How are we going to lose that by living up to it? Our very reason for existence was rebellion against oppression. It is a sacred duty to continue to do so, even when that oppression comes from within our own borders. Possibly even more so.

      So when you see that these people want to change the very fabric of society look at some examples we have of when that has happened. Rome. Sodom and Gomorrah and most free people when moral guide lines were lost led to the decay and destruction of society.

      One could look at the example of Rome, at a country that thought itself the center of the universe, treating the world as if it belonged to Rome, constantly extending outward without realizing that the core of Rome could no longer support the weight of the extended empire. One could argue that the "collapse of morals" was in fact more to do with the wealth and frivolity (and with it the growing boredom and the need to sate a people grown used to being entertained by its government), than anything to do with religion. There is no one reason Rome fell. As with the issues of so many things in our world, it's complicated.

      Just because we see countries with some of these things accepted doesn’t mean that it is good. You have to look back see the changes and project forward to see what will become of this nation. It is not one generation it takes many. Just like the 60s the courts took morals out of the schools now we have TV programs with unwed 16 year old mothers.

      You know we had unwed 16 year old mothers in the fifties, before the sexual revolution of the 60s, right? Heck, my grandma had children out of wedlock in the forties. It isn't a new phenomenon. Today though, rather than hiding them away, we help them, support them, teach them.

      The decision hence the result just like the gays just like the path of this country. There is no society that once starting down this road didn’t lead to the destruction of that society.
      Know the truth and the truth will set you free.

      Equal rights is not going to be the stone that sinks us. Falling backward into a dark age of oppression and suppression will.

      August 19, 2012 at 11:42 am |
    • YeahRight

      "The goals of the gays atheists and socialist all work pretty well together. But it is not the society that anyone is used to even the kids that grownup today with much looser morals that when I was younger will not recognize the US that these people want to transform it into"

      Again Bob is lying since it is also Churches, hundred of thousands of experts and the NAACP that are working for the civil rights of gays. Marriage was defined by the US Supreme Court as a civil right. Recognized federal civil rights law in the United States is grounded in the U.S. Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court. By this standard, marriage has long been established as a civil right.

      The operative constitutional text is section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment, which was ratified in 1868. The relevant passages read as follows:

      No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws

      A federal appeals court on May 31st ruled that the Defense of Marriage Act is unconstitutional because it denies equal rights for legally married same-sex couples, making it likely that the Supreme Court will consider the politically divisive issue for the first time in its next term. This most likely will be decided in the courts and since most courts keep ruling in gays favor they should be able to over turn all the unconstitutional laws prejudice bigots have been trying to pass.

      August 19, 2012 at 11:51 am |
  19. 250 Ministers Proclamation

    As Christian clergy we proclaim the Good News concerning Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) persons and publicly apologize where we have been silent. As disciples of Jesus, who assures us that the truth sets us free, we recognize that the debate is over. The verdict is in. Homosexuality is not a sickness, not a choice, and not a sin. We find no rational biblical or theological basis to condemn or deny the rights of any person based on sexual orientation. Silence by many has allowed political and religious rhetoric to monopolize public perception, creating the impression that there is only one Christian perspective on this issue. Yet we recognize and celebrate that we are far from alone, as Christians, in affirming that LGBT persons are distinctive, holy, and precious gifts to all who struggle to become the family of God.

    In repentance and obedience to the Holy Spirit, we stand in solidarity as those who are committed to work and pray for full acceptance and inclusion of LGBT persons in our churches and in our world. We lament that LGBT persons are condemned and excluded by individuals and institutions, political and religious, who claim to be speaking the truth of Christian teaching. This leads directly and indirectly to intolerance, discrimination, suffering, and even death. The Holy Spirit compels us:

    – to affirm that the essence of Christian life is not focused on sexual orientation, but how one lives by grace in relationship with God, with compassion toward humanity;

    – to embrace the full inclusion of our LGBT brothers and sisters in all areas of church life, including leadership;

    – to declare that the violence must stop. Christ’s love moves us to work for the healing of wounded souls who are victims of abuse often propagated in the name of Christ;

    – to celebrate the prophetic witness of all people who have refused to let the voice of intolerance and violence speak for Christianity, especially LGBT persons, who have met hatred with love;

    Therefore we call for an end to all religious and civil discrimination against any person based on sexual orientation and gender identity and expression. All laws must include and protect the freedoms, rights, and equal legal standing of all persons, in and outside the church.

    August 19, 2012 at 8:40 am |
    • Bob

      Could be thousands they are still deceived and will when the final day comes receive there dues
      “He shall stand and feed in the strength of the Lord.”
      - Mic_5:4
      Christ’s reign in his Church is that of a shepherd-king. He has supremacy, but it is the superiority of a wise and tender shepherd over his needy and loving flock; he commands and receives obedience, but it is the willing obedience of the well-cared-for sheep, rendered joyfully to their beloved Shepherd, whose voice they know so well. He rules by the force of love and the energy of goodness.
      His reign is practical in its character. It is said, “He shall stand and feed.” The great Head of the Church is actively engaged in providing for his people. He does not sit down upon the throne in empty state, or hold a sceptre without wielding it in government. No, he stands and feeds. The expression “feed,” in the original, is like an analogous one in the Greek, which means to shepherdize, to do everything expected of a shepherd: to guide, to watch, to preserve, to restore, to tend, as well as to feed.
      His reign is continual in its duration. It is said, “He shall stand and feed”; not “He shall feed now and then, and leave his position”; not, “He shall one day grant a revival, and then next day leave his Church to barrenness.” His eyes never slumber, and his hands never rest; his heart never ceases to beat with love, and his shoulders are never weary of carrying his people’s burdens.
      His reign is effectually powerful in its action; “He shall feed in the strength of Jehovah.” Wherever Christ is, there is God; and whatever Christ does is the act of the Most High. Oh! it is a joyful truth to consider that he who stands to-day representing the interests of his people is very God of very God, to whom every knee shall bow. Happy are we who belong to such a shepherd, whose humanity communes with us, and whose divinity protects us. Let us worship and bow down before him as the people of his pasture.

      August 19, 2012 at 9:48 am |
    • Lorraine

      No one made of flesh, and blood can rightly judge another, only the Almighty Creator can do this for His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not like our thoughts, said in Isaiah 55:6-11. But, the truth is YHWHs Word, therefore, remember, whatever He says shall never return to Him void.

      As YHWH says no man shall lay with a man, as he lays with a woman, this is what YHWH says, then what it is, is what it is, but it is not for any of us on this earth to judge, or discriminate, only YHWH. Praise YHWH.

      August 19, 2012 at 9:52 am |
    • YeahRight

      "As YHWH says no man shall lay with a man, as he lays with a woman"

      Christians don't follow Leviticus anymore. Duh! Christians don't follow Leviticus anymore, it's part of the Holiness Code, a ritual manual for Israel's priests..

      August 19, 2012 at 11:47 am |
    • Robert

      "Could be thousands they are still deceived and will when the final day comes receive there dues"

      The one trying to deceive are the hate groups who are supplying false reports, they are the anit-Christs.

      August 20, 2012 at 1:40 pm |
  20. Erik

    "It is a decision based on a s=ual desire not a physical difference in that person’s body."

    Being gay is not a choice science, in fact, is actually not in dispute on this matter.

    All major medical professional organizations concur that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed, from gay to straight or otherwise. The American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and European Psychological, Psychiatric, and Medical Associations all agree with this, as does the World Health Organization and the medical organizations of Japan, China, and most recently, Thailand. Furthermore, attempts to change one's sexual orientation can be psychologically damaging, and cause great inner turmoil and depression, especially for Christian gays and lesbians.

    Reparative therapy, also called conversion therapy or reorientation therapy, "counsels" LGBT persons to pray fervently and study Bible verses, often utilizing 12-step techniques that are used to treat sexual addictions or trauma. Such Christian councilors are pathologizing homosexuality, which is not a pathology but is a sexual orientation. Psychologically, that's very dangerous territory to tread on. All of the above-mentioned medical professional organizations, in addition to the American and European Counseling Associations, stand strongly opposed to any form of reparative therapy.

    In my home country, Norway, reparative therapy is officially considered to be ethical malpractice. But there are many countries that do not regulate the practice, and many others that remain largely silent and even passively supportive of it (such as the Philippines). Groups that operate such "therapy" in the Philippines are the Evangelical Bagong Pag-asa, and the Catholic Courage Philippines.

    The scientific evidence of the innateness of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism is overwhelming, and more peer-reviewed studies which bolster this fact are being added all the time. Science has long regarded sexual orientation – and that's all sexual orientations, including heterosexuality – as a phenotype. Simply put, a phenotype is an observable set of properties that varies among individuals and is deeply rooted in biology. For the scientific community, the role of genetics in sexuality is about as "disputable" as the role of evolution in biology.

    On the second point, that there is no conclusion that there is a "gay gene," they are right. No so-called gay gene has been found, and it's highly unlikely that one ever will. This is where conservative Christians and Muslims quickly say "See, I told you so! There's no gay gene, so being gay is a choice!"

    Take this interesting paragraph I found on an Evangelical website: "The attempt to prove that homosexuality is determined biologically has been dealt a knockout punch. An American Psychological Association publication includes an admission that there's no homosexual "gene" – meaning it's not likely that homosexuals are 'born that way.'"

    But that's not at all what it means, and it seems Evangelicals are plucking out stand-alone phrases from scientific reports and removing them from their context. This is known in academia as the fallacy of suppressed evidence. Interestingly, this is also what they have a habit of doing with verses from the Bible.

    This idea of sexuality being a choice is such a bizarre notion to me as a man of science. Many of these reparative "therapists" are basing this concept on a random Bible verse or two. When you hold those up against the mountain of scientific research that has been conducted, peer-reviewed, and then peer-reviewed again, it absolutely holds no water. A person's sexuality – whether heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual – is a very deep biological piece of who that person is as an individual.

    The fact that a so-called "gay gene" has not been discovered does not mean that homosexuality is not genetic in its causation. This is understandably something that can seem a bit strange to those who have not been educated in fields of science and advanced biology, and it is also why people who are not scientists ought not try to explain the processes in simple black-and-white terms. There is no gay gene, but there is also no "height gene" or "skin tone gene" or "left-handed gene." These, like sexuality, have a heritable aspect, but no one dominant gene is responsible for them.

    Many genes, working in sync, contribute to the phenotype and therefore do have a role in sexual orientation. In many animal model systems, for example, the precise genes involved in sexual partner selection have been identified, and their neuro-biochemical pathways have been worked out in great detail. A great number of these mechanisms have been preserved evolutionarily in humans, just as they are for every other behavioral trait we know (including heterosexuality).

    Furthermore, there are many biologic traits which are not specifically genetic but are biologic nonetheless. These traits are rooted in hormonal influences, contributed especially during the early stages of fetal development. This too is indisputable and based on extensive peer-reviewed research the world over. Such prenatal hormonal influences are not genetic per se, but are inborn, natural, and biologic nevertheless.

    Having said that, in the realm of legal rights, partnership rights, and anti-discrimination protections, the gay gene vs. choice debate is actually quite irrelevant. Whether or not something is a choice is not a suitable criterion for whether someone should have equal rights and protections. Religion is indisputably a choice, but that fact is a not a valid argument for discriminating against a particular religion.

    August 19, 2012 at 8:14 am |
    • Bob

      OK where is the extensive study because the APA says the DSM cannot be used to say h0m0 is normal.

      August 19, 2012 at 9:55 am |
    • YeahRight

      "OK where is the extensive study because the APA says the DSM cannot be used to say h0m0 is normal."

      Bob is using the bogus reports from his hate groups which aren't founded on facts, especially since with his poor reading comprehension skills he can't understand what it means by decades of research. LOL! Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      August 19, 2012 at 11:45 am |
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228

Post a comment

You must be logged in to post a comment.

Advertisement
About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.