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My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage
The author backs same-sex marriage because of his faith, not in spite of it.
May 19th, 2012
02:00 AM ET

My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage

Editor's Note: Mark Osler is a Professor of Law at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

By Mark Osler, Special to CNN

I am a Christian, and I am in favor of gay marriage. The reason I am for gay marriage is because of my faith.

What I see in the Bible’s accounts of Jesus and his followers is an insistence that we don’t have the moral authority to deny others the blessing of holy institutions like baptism, communion, and marriage. God, through the Holy Spirit, infuses those moments with life, and it is not ours to either give or deny to others.

A clear instruction on this comes from Simon Peter, the “rock” on whom the church is built. Peter is a captivating figure in the Christian story. Jesus plucks him out of a fishing boat to become a disciple, and time and again he represents us all in learning at the feet of Christ.

During their time together, Peter is often naïve and clueless – he is a follower, constantly learning.

After Jesus is crucified, though, a different Peter emerges, one who is forceful and bold. This is the Peter we see in the Acts of the Apostles, during a fevered debate over whether or not Gentiles should be baptized. Peter was harshly criticized for even eating a meal with those who were uncircumcised; that is, those who did not follow the commands of the Old Testament.

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

Peter, though, is strong in confronting those who would deny the sacrament of baptism to the Gentiles, and argues for an acceptance of believers who do not follow the circumcision rules of Leviticus (which is also where we find a condemnation of homosexuality).

His challenge is stark and stunning: Before ordering that the Gentiles be baptized Peter asks “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

None of us, Peter says, has the moral authority to deny baptism to those who seek it, even if they do not follow the ancient laws. It is the flooding love of the Holy Spirit, which fell over that entire crowd, sinners and saints alike, that directs otherwise.

My Take: Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality

It is not our place, it seems, to sort out who should be denied a bond with God and the Holy Spirit of the kind that we find through baptism, communion, and marriage. The water will flow where it will.

Intriguingly, this rule will apply whether we see homosexuality as a sin or not. The water is for all of us. We see the same thing at the Last Supper, as Jesus gives the bread and wine to all who are there—even to Peter, who Jesus said would deny him, and to Judas, who would betray him.

The question before us now is not whether homosexuality is a sin, but whether being gay should be a bar to baptism or communion or marriage.

Your Take: Rethinking the Bible on homosexuality

The answer is in the Bible. Peter and Jesus offer a strikingly inclusive form of love and engagement. They hold out the symbols of Gods’ love to all. How arrogant that we think it is ours to parse out stingily!

I worship at St. Stephens, an Episcopal church in Edina, Minnesota. There is a river that flows around the back and side of that church with a delightful name: Minnehaha Creek. That is where we do baptisms.

The Rector stands in the creek in his robes, the cool water coursing by his feet, and takes an infant into his arms and baptizes her with that same cool water. The congregation sits on the grassy bank and watches, a gentle army.

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At the bottom of the creek, in exactly that spot, is a floor of smooth pebbles. The water rushing by has rubbed off the rough edges, bit by bit, day by day. The pebbles have been transformed by that water into something new.

I suppose that, as Peter put it, someone could try to withhold the waters of baptism there. They could try to stop the river, to keep the water from some of the stones, like a child in the gutter building a barrier against the stream.

It won’t last, though. I would say this to those who would withhold the water of baptism, the joy of worship, or the bonds of marriage: You are less strong than the water, which will flow around you, find its path, and gently erode each wall you try to erect.

The redeeming power of that creek, and of the Holy Spirit, is relentless, making us all into something better and new.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Mark Osler.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Christianity • Episcopal • Gay marriage • Opinion

soundoff (15,115 Responses)
  1. Bob

    Modern methods of treatment enable a significant proportion of h0m0who wish to change their orientation to do so. At the same time, h0m0 who are bothered by or in conflict with their feelings but who are either uninterested in changing, or unable to change, their orientation can be helped to accept themselves as they are and to rid themselves of self-hatred. Decisions about the labeling problem in DSM-11 require an understanding of the function of a manual of mental disorders. If h0m0 per se does not meet the criteria for a disorder, what is it? Descriptively, it is one form of se-ual behavior. Our profession need not now agree on its origin, significance, and value for human happiness when we acknowledge that by itself it does not meet the requirements for a psyc disorder. Similarly, by no
    longer listing it as a psyc disorder we are not saying that it is "normal" or as valuable as hetero in DSM-11, What will be the effect of carrying out such a proposal? No doubt, h0m0 activist groups will claim that psyc has at last recognized that h0m0 is as "normal" as hetero. They will be wrong. In removing h0m0 per se from the nomenclature we are only recognizing that by itself h0m0 does not meet the criteria for being considered a psyc disorder. We will in no way be aligning ourselves with any particular viewpoint regarding the desirability of h0m0 behavior.

    August 22, 2012 at 9:26 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Where's your citation, Bob? Provide a source or you're lying yet again.

      August 22, 2012 at 9:27 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      So, you've had 12 hours to post a citation for a credible study, and you can't.

      Thanks for living up to your reputation.

      August 23, 2012 at 9:36 am |
    • Roger

      Bob, the problem with your argument is that it's not just the APA that has declared being gay as normal. There are numerous other countries with their own independent studies that have reached the same conclusions, they have proven that the APA made the right decision. In addition, the past 35 years of research and study of gays has also proven that the decision the APA made back in 1973 was the correct one.

      August 23, 2012 at 10:45 am |
    • myweightinwords

      Hi again Bob,

      Modern methods of treatment enable a significant proportion of h0m0who wish to change their orientation to do so.

      This is patently false. I know several men who went through these "modern methods" and truly wanted to change because they had believed that they were evil, dirty, disgusting creatures who would never get into heaven unless they "fixed" themselves. Every single one of them are still gay/bi. Every single one of them will tell you that all the "program" did was cause them to hate themselves more and lose all hope of ever being "normal".

      Reparative therapy is evil. Disgusting.

      August 23, 2012 at 10:54 am |
    • myweightinwords

      At the same time, h0m0 who are bothered by or in conflict with their feelings but who are either uninterested in changing, or unable to change, their orientation can be helped to accept themselves as they are and to rid themselves of self-hatred.

      On one hand you insist that "modern methods" can unequivocally change any gay man to a straight man, now you say that there are those "unable to change"...this is a contradiction. Please explain.

      Decisions about the labeling problem in DSM-11 require an understanding of the function of a manual of mental disorders.

      Pretty self explanatory, no? It's a manual of mental disorders...it lists the known mental disorders, as decided by a group of licensed professionals.

      If h0m0 per se does not meet the criteria for a disorder, what is it? Descriptively, it is one form of se-ual behavior.

      Exactly. One normal expression of human sexual behavior.

      Our profession need not now agree on its origin, significance, and value for human happiness when we acknowledge that by itself it does not meet the requirements for a psyc disorder.

      "Our profession"? Are you quoting something/someone here? If you are quoting, it might be helpful to indicate such in your post, generally by starting with something like, "I feel this quote from THIS PERSON, found in THIS BOOK/WEBSITE is pertinent to the discussion" so that those of us who are trying to converse with you know from the start whether we are talking with you or some other person you are quoting.

      August 23, 2012 at 10:55 am |
    • myweightinwords

      Similarly, by no longer listing it as a psyc disorder we are not saying that it is "normal" or as valuable as hetero in DSM-11, What will be the effect of carrying out such a proposal? No doubt, h0m0 activist groups will claim that psyc has at last recognized that h0m0 is as "normal" as hetero.

      Many psychiatrists still treated homosexuality as a disorder, even after it was removed from the DSM, but it is getting more and more difficult to find one today that still believes that. Why? An overwhelming preponderance of evidence. Decades of study have repeatedly shown that homosexuality is normal.

      They will be wrong. In removing h0m0 per se from the nomenclature we are only recognizing that by itself h0m0 does not meet the criteria for being considered a psyc disorder. We will in no way be aligning ourselves with any particular viewpoint regarding the desirability of h0m0 behavior.

      And since then, following studies and individual case work, the institution of psychiatry has in fact aligned itself with the understanding that homosexuality is normal, is a part of the human understanding of sexuality.

      You need to stop relying on references from the 1970s. This is 2012. Forty years have passed, Bob.

      And for those looking for citation, it seems at least part of Bob's original post is lifted from "Homosexuality and Sexual Orientation Disturbance: Proposed Change in DSM-II, 6th Printing, page 44 POSITION STATEMENT (RETIRED)", which was published in December 1973. A quick google search should pull up a PDF of the statement.

      August 23, 2012 at 11:02 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Well, look at that! Not a single response from the Boobster! Can't produce even one study to support his claims about gays.

      What a shock!

      August 23, 2012 at 10:32 pm |
  2. Erik

    "The paradigm shift in mental health diagnosis in the DSM-III was neither a product of growing scientific knowledge nor of increasing medicalization"

    Being gay is not a choice science, in fact, is actually not in dispute on this matter.

    All major medical professional organizations concur that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed, from gay to straight or otherwise. The American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and European Psychological, Psychiatric, and Medical Associations all agree with this, as does the World Health Organization and the medical organizations of Japan, China, and most recently, Thailand. Furthermore, attempts to change one's sexual orientation can be psychologically damaging, and cause great inner turmoil and depression, especially for Christian gays and lesbians.

    Reparative therapy, also called conversion therapy or reorientation therapy, "counsels" LGBT persons to pray fervently and study Bible verses, often utilizing 12-step techniques that are used to treat sexual addictions or trauma. Such Christian councilors are pathologizing homosexuality, which is not a pathology but is a sexual orientation. Psychologically, that's very dangerous territory to tread on. All of the above-mentioned medical professional organizations, in addition to the American and European Counseling Associations, stand strongly opposed to any form of reparative therapy.

    In my home country, Norway, reparative therapy is officially considered to be ethical malpractice. But there are many countries that do not regulate the practice, and many others that remain largely silent and even passively supportive of it (such as the Philippines). Groups that operate such "therapy" in the Philippines are the Evangelical Bagong Pag-asa, and the Catholic Courage Philippines.

    The scientific evidence of the innateness of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism is overwhelming, and more peer-reviewed studies which bolster this fact are being added all the time. Science has long regarded sexual orientation – and that's all sexual orientations, including heterosexuality – as a phenotype. Simply put, a phenotype is an observable set of properties that varies among individuals and is deeply rooted in biology. For the scientific community, the role of genetics in sexuality is about as "disputable" as the role of evolution in biology.

    On the second point, that there is no conclusion that there is a "gay gene," they are right. No so-called gay gene has been found, and it's highly unlikely that one ever will. This is where conservative Christians and Muslims quickly say "See, I told you so! There's no gay gene, so being gay is a choice!"

    Take this interesting paragraph I found on an Evangelical website: "The attempt to prove that homosexuality is determined biologically has been dealt a knockout punch. An American Psychological Association publication includes an admission that there's no homosexual "gene" – meaning it's not likely that homosexuals are 'born that way.'"

    But that's not at all what it means, and it seems Evangelicals are plucking out stand-alone phrases from scientific reports and removing them from their context. This is known in academia as the fallacy of suppressed evidence. Interestingly, this is also what they have a habit of doing with verses from the Bible.

    This idea of sexuality being a choice is such a bizarre notion to me as a man of science. Many of these reparative "therapists" are basing this concept on a random Bible verse or two. When you hold those up against the mountain of scientific research that has been conducted, peer-reviewed, and then peer-reviewed again, it absolutely holds no water. A person's sexuality – whether heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual – is a very deep biological piece of who that person is as an individual.

    The fact that a so-called "gay gene" has not been discovered does not mean that homosexuality is not genetic in its causation. This is understandably something that can seem a bit strange to those who have not been educated in fields of science and advanced biology, and it is also why people who are not scientists ought not try to explain the processes in simple black-and-white terms. There is no gay gene, but there is also no "height gene" or "skin tone gene" or "left-handed gene." These, like sexuality, have a heritable aspect, but no one dominant gene is responsible for them.

    Many genes, working in sync, contribute to the phenotype and therefore do have a role in sexual orientation. In many animal model systems, for example, the precise genes involved in sexual partner selection have been identified, and their neuro-biochemical pathways have been worked out in great detail. A great number of these mechanisms have been preserved evolutionarily in humans, just as they are for every other behavioral trait we know (including heterosexuality).

    Furthermore, there are many biologic traits which are not specifically genetic but are biologic nonetheless. These traits are rooted in hormonal influences, contributed especially during the early stages of fetal development. This too is indisputable and based on extensive peer-reviewed research the world over. Such prenatal hormonal influences are not genetic per se, but are inborn, natural, and biologic nevertheless.

    Having said that, in the realm of legal rights, partnership rights, and anti-discrimination protections, the gay gene vs. choice debate is actually quite irrelevant. Whether or not something is a choice is not a suitable criterion for whether someone should have equal rights and protections. Religion is indisputably a choice, but that fact is a not a valid argument for discriminating against a particular religion.

    August 22, 2012 at 10:53 am |
  3. YeahRight

    "The third edition of the APA Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-III) was responsible for this change. The paradigm shift in mental health diagnosis in the DSM-III was neither a product of growing scientific knowledge nor of increasing medicalization. Instead, its symptom-based diagnoses reflect a growing standardization of psyc diagnoses. This standardization was the product of many factors, including: (1) professional politics within the mental health community, (2) increased'

    Bob, this is how change comes about moron. How do you think African Americans and women got their civil rights, they had to fight for them. They had to get into politics and get in people’s faces so that this injustice could be over turned. You can keep posting this crap repeatedly but the REALITY of TODAY is that being gay is considered normal by hundreds of thousands of experts in this country. That is why NOW we have to right a wrong that has been done to this minority group, just as we did with African Americans and women. You are only posting the lies from hate groups to try to justify your own personal hate and prejudice but no matter how hard you try the experts in this country have proven you WRONG!

    Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

    Social science has shown that the concerns often raised about children of lesbian and gay parents—concerns that are generally grounded in prejudice against and stereotypes about gay people—are unfounded. Overall, the research indicates that the children of lesbian and gay parents do not differ from the children of heterosexual parents in their development, adjustment, or overall well-being.

    August 22, 2012 at 10:48 am |
  4. Bob

    Actually I think you did already,

    August 21, 2012 at 9:58 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Look up Evelyn Ho oker's 1957 study on gays, bob.

      August 21, 2012 at 11:53 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      I'm betting you won't.

      August 21, 2012 at 11:53 pm |
    • Bob

      Another failed skewed test put out by communists look at who paid for it. Did it ever dawn on you why communists now called socialists would be funding a study on gays??? H00ker herself a h0m0 fired by the university and under fed investigation and the Mattachine group is pretty nasty I have seen this study before and once you know the origins its not good to quote it. Why didn't you do your homework and find the truth?? I think your intelligent but maybe you are letting your emotions run away with you. While teaching at UCLA in the late 1940’s, H00ker fell in with a group of h0m0 and the newly formed activist organization, the Mattachine Society. Founded by leading thinker and member of the communist party, Harry Hay, the Mattachine Society members convinced H00ker to embark on a research study of h0m0 on their behalf in order to advance the movement. The study’s subjects were selected entirely by the Mattachine Society, a group that H00ker herself admitted in the report had "as its stated purpose the development of a h0m0 ethic. In the same section she concedes the possibility that h0m0 are indeed pathological. The inadequacy of her methodology was acknowledged by the Journal of Projective Techniques that published it.

      August 22, 2012 at 7:47 am |
    • myweightinwords

      Hi again Bob,

      Another failed skewed test put out by communists look at who paid for it. Did it ever dawn on you why communists now called socialists would be funding a study on gays???

      I'm not sure I understand the fear of socialism that seems to have become prominent once again. We all know that fully invoked socialism has failed as a social experiment, largely because we are human beings and were we perfect, socialism would work well, but we're not perfect and so it is doomed to failure. However, there are elements of the philosophy that work quite well for those will to implement them, and in small scale experiments, where all the people involved are there voluntarily and of like mind, it has worked to the betterment of all involved.

      H00ker herself a h0m0 fired by the university

      Can you prove this? Considering that she was married to two different men I find nothing in the information I found in a quick search to indicate she was fired by any university.

      and under fed investigation and the Mattachine group is pretty nasty

      In what way?

      I have seen this study before and once you know the origins its not good to quote it. Why didn't you do your homework and find the truth??

      Why would it not be good to quote it? It was groundbreaking work that began the scientific journey into understanding homosexuality that is still ongoing today.

      I think your intelligent but maybe you are letting your emotions run away with you.

      I would be careful with such statements, Bob. You can not discern emotion over the internet. Besides, it is condescending and does not contribute to the conversation.

      While teaching at UCLA in the late 1940’s, H00ker fell in with a group of h0m0 and the newly formed activist organization, the Mattachine Society.

      I don't know that I'd use the words "fell in with", considering that from what I've read the Mattachine Society was an organization of gay men, and Hooker was a straight woman.

      Founded by leading thinker and member of the communist party, Harry Hay, the Mattachine Society members convinced H00ker to embark on a research study of h0m0 on their behalf in order to advance the movement.

      Actually, Hooker contacted them in order to recruit gay men for her study.

      The study’s subjects were selected entirely by the Mattachine Society, a group that H00ker herself admitted in the report had "as its stated purpose the development of a h0m0 ethic. In the same section she concedes the possibility that h0m0 are indeed pathological. The inadequacy of her methodology was acknowledged by the Journal of Projective Techniques that published it.

      And yet, three experts, some of whom were certain that they could determine which of the men were gay because being gay was so clearly a mental disorder, could not, with any more success than pure chance, determine which of the profiles produced via the experiment were gay. Hooker did not make those conclusions; Klopfer, Shneidman, and Mayer did.

      August 22, 2012 at 11:07 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Bob, let's get back to YOUR lies. You claimed that NO STUDIES had been done.

      Whether you think the studies are valid or not is irrelevant. You claimed that NO STUDIES existed prior to the 1973 decision by the APA.

      Are you going to continue to lie?

      The fact is that H0oker's study has been run by other researchers who have corroborated her results. The study is not skewed. H0oker's own orientation is also irrelevant. Why would that have any bearing on the results? If it had, then the results would not have been repeated when the study was run by other researchers.

      When are you going to admit that you are a liar?

      Or will you be like Judas?

      August 22, 2012 at 11:28 am |
    • Bob

      Sorry Tom I didn't realize where this was going I was under the impression it was to get to the truth but its really about calling me a liar not about the truth. Well the one study was only revealed in the 90s by your own admission and this study is questionable so really there is only one that you coudl even call a study in the most loosely worded definitions of the terms study. So I am really not wrong. Would you like to see all the studies that go contrary to this one?

      August 22, 2012 at 1:33 pm |
    • Nikki

      "Psychologists, psychiatrists, and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, a mental disorder, or an emotional problem. More than 35 years of objective, well-designed scientific research has shown that homosexuality, in and itself, is not associated with mental disorders or emotional or social problems. Homosexuality was once thought to be a mental illness because mental health professionals and society had biased information.

      In the past, the studies of gay, lesbian, and bisexual people involved only those in therapy, thus biasing the resulting conclusions. When researchers examined data about such people who were not in therapy, the idea that homosexuality was a mental illness was quickly found to be untrue.

      In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association confirmed the importance of the new, better-designed research and removed homosexuality from the official manual that lists mental and emotional disorders. Two years later, the American Psychological Association passed a resolution supporting this removal.

      For more than 25 years, both associations have urged all mental health professionals to help dispel the stigma of mental illness that some people still associate with homosexual orientation."

      August 22, 2012 at 1:51 pm |
    • Bob

      Weight if you look in the declass=ified fed files you will see the investigation. It was sponsored and initiated by gays who were also socialists not by h00ker. The people of the study were picked by this h0m0 group. The study size was also small. So you don't think that there may be a little bias?? This was all in the post did you read it?? As for what do the socialists have to do with gays if you need more clout to get your point pressed through wouldn't you join up with whatever groups you could that have a similar goal?? It doesn't matter what the ultimate goal of these groups individually are just as long as each group gets its own selfish needs met. if you want a good result in a study pick the participants, the questions and have a small group size, of course you will have the results you want. Its not ground breaking also unless you have PR to applaud the results.

      August 22, 2012 at 1:52 pm |
    • Nikki

      Bob, they have added to the research over the past 40 years, there's no going back. It's really sad to know that there are hateful people like you in this world.

      Hate is more of a choice than homosexuality will ever be.

      August 22, 2012 at 2:58 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Weight if you look in the declass=ified fed files you will see the investigation. It was sponsored and initiated by gays who were also socialists not by h00ker.

      Again, I have to question your sources, Bob. Nothing I can find in a fair amount of searching corroborates what you are saying.

      The people of the study were picked by this h0m0 group.

      So? Were they gay? Were they volunteers? Did they submit to all of the questioning/testing? Then they qualified for the study. Who cares who "picked" them?

      The results of the study have been corroborated.

      The study size was also small. So you don't think that there may be a little bias??

      Study size has no bearing on bias. Initial studies of this kind are often small. It is an effort to establish a theory that can then be tested on a broader scale. I concur that a sample size of 60 men is small, and I would support a larger, modernized study. How big a sample size is big enough for you? Who gets to choose the participants?

      The problem is that people like you will always claim bias if the study denies what you believe to be true.

      This was all in the post did you read it??

      I did, but as usual, you post things as if they are fact, but do not provide sources for verification, and if when I search for your sources all I find are things which invalidate your claims, it makes me question your source of facts.

      As for what do the socialists have to do with gays if you need more clout to get your point pressed through wouldn't you join up with whatever groups you could that have a similar goal??

      That still doesn't make your point.

      It doesn't matter what the ultimate goal of these groups individually are just as long as each group gets its own selfish needs met.

      We all have things we want, and yes, we work together to accomplish them. One could argue that if enough people band together to make something happen, that thing ceases to become selfish. Besides which, if an atheist or socialist isn't gay, but supports gay rights, by definition that is NOT selfish. It is support for another, pursuit of true equality.

      if you want a good result in a study pick the participants, the questions and have a small group size, of course you will have the results you want. Its not ground breaking also unless you have PR to applaud the results.

      The study in question was not made up of only gay men. It was half gay men and half straight. The questions/tests were basic psychiatric evaluations. The people who interpreted the results BELIEVED THEY WOULD FIND DIFFERENCES and didn't. Explain how that is biased.

      August 22, 2012 at 3:14 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Bob, you claimed that NO studies preceded the 1973 decision. You either lied or were wrong. Which was it?

      Your complete dishonesty here is making a lie out of every post you write. You have presented not a single study that backs your opinion. Not one.

      Until you can present evidence, you are lying or wrong.

      August 22, 2012 at 7:15 pm |
    • Bob

      It is significant to note that H00ker's stated reservations seldom, if ever, find their way into the summaries of her work http://vault.fbi.gov/mattachine-society/mattachine-society-part-01-of-03/view This says what happened to h00ker that she was actually let go.

      August 22, 2012 at 8:55 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You are impotent, aren't you? Did H00ker complete and publish a study or not? Was the study repeated and the results corroborated by other researchers or not? Was the study done before 1973 or not?

      Answer, you little coward.

      August 22, 2012 at 8:57 pm |
  5. Douglas

    GLBTQ celibates, take heart!

    The good news of the Bible brings joy and peace to you.

    Shunning the shame of fornication, GLBTQ celibates have turned the page
    and refused to buy into the myth that GLBTQ coitus is acceptable to the Lord.

    They know better and are growing in numbers every day. Ben, celibate gay man who works with
    our GLBTQ youth ministry, said that it took him 9 years to come to his senses and he is so
    blessed to be healthy and free from the afflictions that have hobbled so many of those GLBTQ brothers
    and sisters who remain trapped in the twilight zone of fornication...separated from God and yet
    so close with the simple renunciation of sinful acts.

    GLBTQ and straight youth have the highest admiration for Ben. He speaks to them in a language they understand
    and is living proof that GLBTQ folk can be celibate, saved, and content with their lives.

    Release the power of GLBTQ celibacy in your place of worship and watch lives transform for the better!

    As Jesus said, "keep your hand to the plough and don't look back!"

    Best, Douglas

    August 21, 2012 at 8:43 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Yup, nothing says joy and peace than misery and obey or burn for eternity fear tactics.

      August 21, 2012 at 8:45 pm |
    • James

      "GLBTQ celibates, take heart!

      The good news of the Bible brings joy and peace to you.

      Shunning the shame of fornication, GLBTQ celibates have turned the page
      and refused to buy into the myth that GLBTQ coitus is acceptable to the Lord."

      The scriptures actually say nothing about homosexuality as a psychosexual orientation. Our understandings of sexual orientation are distinctly modern ones that were not present in the minds of Scripture writers. A few passages of Scripture (seven at the most) object to certain types of same-sex expressions or acts. The particular acts in question, however, are sexual expressions which are exploitative, oppressive, commercialized, or offensive to ancient purity rituals. There is no Scriptural guidance for same-sex relationships which are loving and mutually respecting. Guidelines for these relationships should come from the same general Scriptural norms that apply to heterosexual relationships.

      August 22, 2012 at 10:51 am |
    • YeahRight

      "Shunning the shame of fornication, GLBTQ celibates have turned the page

      and refused to buy into the myth that GLBTQ coitus is acceptable to the Lord."

      This poster has proven over and over again his hate and prejudice toward the gay community, so just laugh at their prejudice on this subject and move on. The experts have stated that heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      August 22, 2012 at 11:03 am |
  6. Bob

    The atheists could care less about gays, their motive is to take God out of the US,, these here are not gays but atheists
    The third edition of the APA Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-III) was responsible for this change. The paradigm shift in mental health diagnosis in the DSM-III was neither a product of growing scientific knowledge nor of increasing medicalization. Instead, its symptom-based diagnoses reflect a growing standardization of psyc diagnoses. This standardization was the product of many factors, including: (1) professional politics within the mental health community, (2) increased
    gov involvement in mental health research and policymaking, (3) mounting pressure on psysts from health insurers to demonstrate the effectiveness of their practices,,,, Alan Stone, president of the APA in 1976, concluded that social psy and social activism, “carrying psyc on a mission to change the world, had brought the profession to the edge of extinction” (Wilson, 1993, p. 402)

    August 21, 2012 at 7:48 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Gee, another repost from bob, how predictable. Conspiracy bullshit and assertions of motives of everyone who is not gay. Bob, how much more useless will you become until you realize it?

      August 21, 2012 at 7:53 pm |
    • therealpeace2all

      @Bob

      " The atheists could care less about gays, their motive is to take God out of the US,, these here are not gays but atheists. "

      Are you absolutely f ucking nuts ?!?!?!?!? 8O

      Get a grip, dude !

      Peace...

      August 21, 2012 at 7:58 pm |
    • midwest rail

      @ the realpeace – yes, yes he is.

      August 21, 2012 at 8:11 pm |
    • Bob

      peace2alldotme Conscientious thoughts from a conscientious mind yup you just blew that one

      August 21, 2012 at 8:13 pm |
    • therealpeace2all

      @Bob

      Your posting to me, quoting me from my blog, is just another 'red-herring'- 'non-sequitur' statement from you.

      Your constant thinking that... " The atheists could care less about gays, their motive is to take God out of the US, these here are not gays but atheists "... is just absolute non-sense, Bob.

      I want 'equality' for gays. That's my motive. Told you that before, and I'm telling you again.

      So, unless you can prove that *everyone* else besides me, is just trying to "take God out of the US"... you might want to chill out on the unverified rhetoric.

      Peace...

      August 21, 2012 at 8:49 pm |
    • Bob

      Ok peace why is it that there are only atheists here if it is so important to the gays? Why are the atheists the ones that seem to be either telling Christians how they are not following the Bible or whats in the Bible or misquoting the Bible here? Why is it the atheists that are so altruistic that they will write a all out verbal assault against anyone who dares to speak against gay marriage? So are the atheists really these goody two shoes, or just a wolf in sheep's clothing?

      August 21, 2012 at 9:13 pm |
    • midwest rail

      More nonsense from Bob. Please tell the class how you've so "expertly" identified everyone posting here as atheists ? Besides your own preconceived (and decidedly ill-conceived) notions ?

      August 21, 2012 at 9:17 pm |
    • Bob

      So what about you middy?? care to answer??

      August 21, 2012 at 9:56 pm |
    • midwest rail

      Answer what, Bob ? You haven't asked anything, you've only made a blanket accusation without any evidence. ( Gee, that sure is familiar with you. ) And since I have repeatedly asked you questions which you choose to ignore or deflect, why would I answer you anyway ? Admit it, Bob – you are NOT here to engage in honest discourse – you are here to bolster your own prejudices. Christian ? Nope.

      August 21, 2012 at 10:01 pm |
    • Bob

      Its ok Middy! But how would you have any idea what a Christian is supposed to be?? Stick to judging atheists.

      August 21, 2012 at 10:25 pm |
    • midwest rail

      Standard non sequitur from Bob. Honest discourse has died a painful death on this topic, well done faux Christian.

      August 21, 2012 at 10:28 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Hey Bob why did you run from our conversation below?
      Here's a repost of my last two posts, they still apply here

      hawaiiguest

      @Bob

      The studies refute your religious bigotry, and when you can't handle that fact, you make up conspiracy idiocy and try to pass it off as truth.

      August 21, 2012 at 8:30 pm | Report abuse |

      hawaiiguest

      @Bob

      You make constant assertions without ever backing it up when challenged, you respond to a thread only as long as you don't get put into a corner from your own idiocy, and once you are, you run away and repost the same thing. It's incredible how self-deluded you can be to think that you have any depth or veracity to your argument at all.

      August 21, 2012 at 8:33 pm | Report abuse |

      August 21, 2012 at 10:34 pm |
    • therealpeace2all

      @Bob

      O.K... Bob, here we go:

      1) "Ok peace why is it that there are only atheists here if it is so important to the gays? "

      How do you know that there are *only* atheists here ? How do you know that there aren't *a lot* of *gays* posting here ? Maybe they just don't announce themselves. ? How do you know that there aren't *gay atheists* posting here ?

      And... I can think of many reasons why certain group of people might not be here, (a ssuming for the moment that your question is accurate), How about... why would 'gays' want to be on a belief blog where there are Christians who constantly claim they are an abomination and going to burn in hell, and they are not worthy of God's love, unless they "change their sinning ways." ?!?!?!?!?
      Maybe they are just sick and tired of hearing all of the negative drivel by you Christians (on behalf of God of course) about how terrible they are ? *Ooops... I mean, you know... you HATE the 'sin' but love the sinner. Yeah, right.

      Or... instead of just arguing with Christians like you here on the 'blogs'.... they are out 'doing' something about it ?

      But mainly, your presupposit i tion here is if... gays aren't on these blogs it must *mean* or = they don't really care. That 'is' one of your main inferences here... and it *doesn't* mean they don't care... they do.

      2) " Why are the atheists the ones that seem to be either telling Christians how they are not following the Bible or whats in the Bible or misquoting the Bible here?

      Well, personally...for me, you will rarely, if ever see me quoting the Bible. Seems pretty ridiculous IMO. I've been on these blogs since their inception, and many others, and I don't know if I've ever quoted the Bible. Possibly once or twice.

      However, there are people, many of which are atheists, who jump in and like to throw Bible quotes back at you Christians. And, IMO... many of them seem to get the better of you Christians at times. However, the 'why'... that's their reasons... you'll have to ask them.

      But, for the record... I see a tremendous amount of Christians arguing with other 'Christians' about what God really means and who's got the right interpretation of which Bible verse. You guys often are tossing Bible versus at each other like punches.

      3) " Why is it the atheists that are so altruistic that they will write a all out verbal assault against anyone who dares to speak against gay marriage ?So are the atheists really these goody two shoes, or just a wolf in sheep's clothing? "

      Don't know to the first part of your question, although I have some pretty strong opinions as to 'why.'

      As to the second part... again, Bob... maybe, ... just maybe atheists, agnostics, some christians, and many from other religions, or not believe that what you evangelical theists believe about 'gays' and what you are doing to minimize, criminalize, bully, torture, ... create laws that show them as not being worthy enough in our society of having equal rights as human beings... maybe we think you guys are absolutely *wrong.*

      So... we fight, what we believe to be grave injustices.

      Kind Regards,

      Peace...

      So are the atheists really these goody two shoes, or just a wolf in sheep's clothing?

      August 22, 2012 at 1:50 am |
    • therealpeace2all

      @Bob

      " So are the atheists really these goody two shoes, or just a wolf in sheep's clothing? "

      *Sorry*... you had so many questions, had to cut and paste to follow and accidentally left that last sentence at the bottom of my response.

      Peace...

      August 22, 2012 at 1:56 am |
    • Bob

      Mr peace ignorance is bliss, since you haven't seen the misquoted scriptures a thousand times reposted under different names courtesy of yeah the ignorant. I guess when you speak to someone you dont like to understand who your speaking to or in this case posting to? How do you relate info if you have no idea who the person is and what experiences they have had?? So back to my original question atheists are just so goody two shoes but what is the real mototive that they feel worthy enough to come out with the assaults on another person?? So you say anytime they don't get their way its ok to do this kind of behavior?? Sounds to me like a child throwing a temper tantrum that needs a good time out or even pat on the bottom so why are the atheists really here and do they really realize the future of there actions. Maybe they just fight for a cause and cannot see the picture of what will change in society. Kind of like having your dog go on the sidewalk and not cleaning it up. I say you either have blinders on or are just plain out to lunch not to see the assaults and lies and whats really transpiring here.

      August 22, 2012 at 2:11 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      If "ignorance is bliss", Boob, you must be ecstatic.

      August 22, 2012 at 9:29 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Mr peace ignorance is bliss, since you haven't seen the misquoted scriptures a thousand times reposted under different names courtesy of yeah the ignorant"

      More lies from Bob since I have been posting from the experts on this subject and have stated that from the beginning. Poor Bob keeps making up lies to try and justify his hate, especially since he's been using well known hate groups as his source.

      August 23, 2012 at 11:09 am |
  7. Lorraine

    And while we are at it about discrimination, people who take care of the elderly, and cna workers should get paid much, much, more than they do today.

    August 21, 2012 at 1:08 pm |
    • Mass Debater

      Oh, oh, I think I might actually be agreeing with Lorraine for once!

      But wait, I just need to know Lorraine, what if the elderly people are gay? Should we still pay their nurses more?

      August 21, 2012 at 8:15 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Lorraine –

      Would you support an increase in the marginal tax rate to fund an increase in compensation for those, CNAs included, who provide support to the disadvantaged?

      August 21, 2012 at 8:25 pm |
  8. Lorraine

    This is a private matter, no one should have to expose themselves of their personal lives, one might as well bring, or advertise to the world into their toilets while doing their business. This is crazy. I think this is disgusting, degrading, and inhumane. Only YHWH can judge anyone in the end, man is fallible, we all have something we shouldn't do, or can improve. Peace, and YHWH Bless us all.

    August 21, 2012 at 11:02 am |
    • myweightinwords

      What is a private matter?

      August 21, 2012 at 1:36 pm |
    • Lorraine

      myweightinwords, It is a private matter to marry who one wants to, or to chose who one wants to be with, it should not have any business of no one else to be concerned with. Gay people might as well bring the world into their private lives on a daily basis. This is not right, this is another form of control, and discrimination to gay people.Only YHWH can judge any of us, not man on this kind of issue of love, and marriage, it is not for the public to own. Peace, and YHWH Bless us all.

      August 21, 2012 at 2:04 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      While I agree, that who a person chooses to marry is between that person and their chosen spouse and their own gods (if any), it is clear that this is a battle that must be fought, must be won.

      Equality is for everyone or it isn't equality.

      August 21, 2012 at 2:40 pm |
    • Lorraine

      Mass Debater, Really_O, what does being gay if you are elderly have to do with it? This should not matter the gay elderly definitely need assistance too; and yes I agree with an increase for cnas who contribute to the disadvantaged, this too should be handsomely paid. If You notice, the jobs that no one wants to do that are considered the most nasty jobs, many minorities are welcomed in great numbers to hold them. It is ironic that after many minorities who get discriminated, and denied equality by this same society, are the ones that many of the highly privileged have to come right back to for help when they cannot wipe their a****. Where are their loved ones at this age, somewhere counting, and spending, their dough no doubt, such a shallow society today. Once upon a time the old used to be cherished in a certain culture, and greatly loved by their families round the clock. To think that the society, and culture of America today hardly want to pay the minorities to take care of their elderly, and disadvantaged gay, or not, loved ones, its crazy, no, it's just plain wrong. lol. YHWH Bless.

      August 22, 2012 at 8:36 am |
  9. myweightinwords

    Bob, if I may...I have a few questions I'd like to see you answer.

    1) I assume, based on your postings, that you consider yourself straight. Is this correct?
    2) Are you married or dating someone?
    3) Without pointing at any source outside of your own opinion, can you briefly state why you personally feel so strongly about homosexuality?
    4) Can you explain to me, again without pointing at any source outside of your own opinion, what affect you feel same gender marriage in the United States would be?

    August 21, 2012 at 10:39 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      And as usual, Bob refuses to answer. He's been asked these questions over and over. He is dishonest and devious.

      August 21, 2012 at 6:46 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Often, those who believe because they are afraid not to believe cling to misguided and misunderstood rhetoric in an effort to stave off doubt.

      August 22, 2012 at 10:17 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Or they are simply cowards. Like Bob.

      August 22, 2012 at 7:20 pm |
  10. YeahRight

    "So its not the thousands of professionals across the country it boils down to this and really one man Spitzer"

    Poor Bob can't handle the fact that these organizations put out this joint statement. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

    Notice the number 480,000 they are the ones that wrote that but Bob is using the proganda lies from his hate groups to try and discredit all the professionals in this country.

    The issue is they have declared that being gay is normal and not a mental illness, this fight is about civil rights today and equality, which is why the NAACP is now part of this fight.

    If we use Bob's poor logic then Africa Americans shouldn't have their civil rights either since it was really one man MLK that brought the fight to America's front door. LMAO!

    August 21, 2012 at 10:19 am |
    • Bob

      This atheist has no ability to speak for himself and reposts all the information and is not any where near truthfull in his posts.
      Anytime a scientific organization endorses sod, remember Gittings words: They are running scared.Pro-sod activists have learned that intimidation and strategic alliances work, and they are never hesitant about using intimidation and psyc manipulation to reach the goals of their radical agenda.Adopting terrorism as a means, pro-sod activists set their vicious sights on D.r. David Reuben, one of the best-known psyc in the area of human sxu in 1974. Unbeknownst to Dr. Reuben, pro-sod activists were lying in wait outside one of his lectures and his physical safety was at risk. Pro-sod author Leigh Rutledge describes the attack in her book The Gay Decades, June 16, A fist fight broke out at a Philadelphia playhouse when ten gay activists interrupted a lecture by D.r. David Rueben and denounced him as a criminal for his views on male gay. One policeman and a protestor are injured in the melee.On that same page, the book tells us that, The Centers for Disease Control estimate that gay or bise men account for as much as one-third of the cases of syphilis

      August 21, 2012 at 7:40 pm |
    • Bob

      This atheist has no ability to speak for himself and reposts all the information and is not any where near truthfull in his posts.
      Anytime a scientific organization endorses sod, remember Gittings words: They are running scared.Pro-sod activists have learned that intimidation and strategic alliances work, and they are never hesitant about using intimidation and psyc manipulation to reach the goals of their radical agenda.Adopting terrorism as a means, pro-sod activists set their vicious sights on David Reuben, one of the best-known psyc in the area of human sxu in 1974. Unbeknownst to Dr. Reuben, pro-sod activists were lying in wait outside one of his lectures and his physical safety was at risk. Pro-sod author Leigh Rutledge describes the attack in her book The Gay Decades, June 16, A fist fight broke out at a Philadelphia playhouse when ten gay activists interrupted a lecture by David Rueben and denounced him as a criminal for his views on male gay. One policeman and a protestor are injured in the melee.On that same page, the book tells us that,

      August 21, 2012 at 7:42 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Bob

      So you rip on YeahRight for reposting, then you do the exact same thing? You reposted that bullshit from yesterday.

      August 21, 2012 at 7:43 pm |
    • Bob

      You are correct about the repost because if Yeah can do it with the same lies and deception I can repost the truth. If you go back that same line must be in almost every page of this blog. It is a lie because they all use the DSM to classify people so if the DSM says they are ok then what do you think they are going to say and there is no proof of the numbers either. There is also no mention of the ones that don't agree with the DSM either. I have also provided proof that the DSM didn't say gays were normal but that the definition had changed to if you are feel ok then there is no problem.

      August 21, 2012 at 8:06 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Bob

      The studies refute your religious bigotry, and when you can't handle that fact, you make up conspiracy idiocy and try to pass it off as truth.

      August 21, 2012 at 8:30 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Bob

      You make constant assertions without ever backing it up when challenged, you respond to a thread only as long as you don't get put into a corner from your own idiocy, and once you are, you run away and repost the same thing. It's incredible how self-deluded you can be to think that you have any depth or veracity to your argument at all.

      August 21, 2012 at 8:33 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Hi Bob,

      I see that you chose to not respond to my post directed to you below. I really would like you to. I am genuinely interested in your response.

      This atheist has no ability to speak for himself and reposts all the information and is not any where near truthfull in his posts.

      You seem to be very hung up on this lately. How does whether a person believes in a god or not invalidate their opinions on equality for human beings? I do not understand your position on this. Also? I would think that if people who are not gay and stand to gain nothing for supporting LGBT equality still support it, that would actually be an endorsement for equality, for realizing that it isn't just gay people saying that something is wrong here.

      Anytime a scientific organization endorses sod, remember Gittings words: They are running scared.

      Let me ask you something. You and I clearly disagree on the matter of equality. I believe that all human beings are equal, with the same basic rights. You clearly disagree and assert that gay people are not equal. Now, let's say I get you to say that that isn't what you mean at all. I could point at you and say look, he's running scared. Does that mean you are?

      No scientific community endorses something without research.

      Pro-sod activists have learned that intimidation and strategic alliances work, and they are never hesitant about using intimidation and psyc manipulation to reach the goals of their radical agenda.

      "Pro-sod activists"? What exactly do you mean by this? And what is "psyc manipulation"?

      How do you define sodomy, Bob? Do you realize that heterosexual couples engage in many of the same acts as gay couples do? Is it wrong for them too?

      And again with the radical agenda. Do you honestly think that there is some grand gay conspiracy out there, all organized with secret handshakes and a calendar of events with some end goal of...what? Taking over the world? Turning everyone gay? What is this agenda?

      Adopting terrorism as a means, pro-sod activists set their vicious sights on D.r. David Reuben, one of the best-known psyc in the area of human sxu in 1974. Unbeknownst to Dr. Reuben, pro-sod activists were lying in wait outside one of his lectures and his physical safety was at risk. Pro-sod author Leigh Rutledge describes the attack in her book The Gay Decades, June 16, A fist fight broke out at a Philadelphia playhouse when ten gay activists interrupted a lecture by D.r. David Rueben and denounced him as a criminal for his views on male gay. One policeman and a protestor are injured in the melee.On that same page, the book tells us that, The Centers for Disease Control estimate that gay or bise men account for as much as one-third of the cases of syphilis.

      When reading a book written as a first person witness account of an event, one must take into account the prejudice and bias of the writer. I have myself taken part in a demonstration against a public policy that was later described by "the other side" as being violent and hateful, with the intent to intimidate the school board into breaking the law. It was said that we hurled hateful comments at those who passed by us. In point of fact, there were about ten of us, who gathered outside the school board meeting and sat on the sidewalk, singing.

      I'm not saying that there wasn't violence. I'm saying that there is prejudice in the written word, when that word is written by someone clearly on one side or another of an argument.

      As to your ending comment about gay men and syphilis, we must take many things into account when looking at a statistic like that. It isn't just about who a person is sleeping with, but hinges largely on other behaviors that have nothing to do with whether or not a person is gay. If one looks at the statistics reported by the CDC for 2010, one would see that among straight men and women, African-American people have the highest incidence of syphilis. One can also see that 18.3% of the cases reported by men do not indicate their sexual orientation, which could significantly skew the results.

      Statistics by themselves do not prove anything, if one does not first understand the statistics themselves.

      August 22, 2012 at 10:42 am |
    • tallulah13

      Bob is a bigot, plain and simple. He is the one running scared - frighted of science, of equality, of how the world is changing. Bob clings to ignorance like a child clings to a security blanket. If he wasn't such a horrible person, I would pity him.

      August 22, 2012 at 10:52 am |
    • YeahRight

      "You are correct about the repost because if Yeah can do it with the same lies and deception I can repost the truth. "

      Again Bob you are NOT posting the truth, I am the one that has been posting what the hundred of thousands of experts in this country are saying on this subject. You have been posting the false reports from well known hate groups that have been proven over and over again that they are lies.

      August 23, 2012 at 11:11 am |
  11. Bob

    It should be noted that the number of Yes votes, 5,854, made up only 32.7 percent of the total membership of the APA. Only slightly less than one-third of the APAs membership approved the change. It should be further noted that the vote was partially controlled by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force (NGTLF). They were able to obtain APA member addresses and with-out identifying itself as NGTLF and sent out letters to all members urging them to vote to remove h0m0 from the DSM. Bruce Voeller, the head of the NGTLF admits, Our costly letter has perhaps made the difference. The pro-sodomy activists won the vote and the new official definition of h0m0 as a disorder was downgraded to include only those who were unhappy with their orientation. Total APA members eligible to vote: 17,905 Number of APA members that actually voted: 10,555 Number of members that Abstained 367 Number of No votes to keep h0m0 in the DSM as a mental disorder: 3,810 Number of Yes votes-votes to remove h0m0 from the DSM as a mental disorder: 5,854. So its not the thousands of professionals across the country it boils down to this and really one man Spitzer

    August 20, 2012 at 8:26 pm |
    • Karen

      Bob, how does it feel to be on the wrong side of history? You are.

      August 20, 2012 at 9:35 pm |
    • Kevin

      You cannot "lobby" organizations such as these. It is true that it was listed as a mental illness until so much more research was done on the subject and much more knowledge was obtained. That was probably 40 years ago anyway. Who uses 40 year old data?

      August 21, 2012 at 10:25 am |
    • Brad

      I think that you are being misled. Well before the ‘vote’ took place, it had already been decided, the year previously, to remove homosexuality from its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Psychiatric Disorders (DSM) based on scientific criteria.

      This procedure took 11 months and passed through 4 separate committees before reaching the board of trustees where it was ratified. No-one had ‘voted’ to have it removed. It was a scientific decision based on scientific findings. Were you aware of this?

      August 21, 2012 at 10:29 am |
    • Brad

      Please bear in mind that this was the early 70’s. Homophobia was everywhere and the medical professions were not exempt from it. Yet less than 17% wanted to reinstate homosexuality as a disorder.

      August 21, 2012 at 10:34 am |
    • Bob

      Brad
      You are sorely misinformed there was NO scientific studies, it is pretty common knowledge if you don't want to look it up you can look at my previous posts. Even the gay community acknowledges this fact.

      August 21, 2012 at 6:16 pm |
    • midwest rail

      " If you don't want to look it up, you can look at mt previous posts...." Where he will find nothing of genuine discourse, and everything related to disinformation, and yes, outright falsehoods. Have you not noticed, Bob, that no one but you is still engaged in this myopic tilting at windmills ? Not only are you a poor imitation of Sancho Panza, you're an even worse imitation of a Christian.

      August 21, 2012 at 6:22 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "You are sorely misinformed there was NO scientific studies, it is pretty common knowledge "

      Hundred of thousands of experts are basing their statements on no scientific studies and no research, if they are doing that then they wouldn't have jobs or funding. Duh! That takes the cake as one of the most stupid statements on this thread. LOL! Oh, that's right you're getting your information from well known hate groups who are publishing proven false information.

      August 21, 2012 at 6:41 pm |
    • Bob

      Whats the matter mid and yeah you afraid people might wake up from the lies and be able to see the truth and decide for themselves? For both Kevin and Brad just below I have cited the truth how gays got taken off the DSM. It has nothing to do with studies or science or anything that the atheist and gay propaganda machine has to say. The APA wasn't lobbied it was violently assaulted and harassed for 3 years straight and Spitzer has admitted it was a political decision not because he had any scientific knowledge. You can listen to who you want but I personally no matter what would want the truth not harassed into believing a lie.
      Kay Lahusen and Barbara Gittings know what really happened to the A.P.A. In the book Making History they are quite open about the reality.Kay: This was always more of a political decision than a medical decision Barbara: It never was a medical decision and thats why I think the action came so fast. After all, it was only three years from the time that femi and gays first zapped the APA at a behavior therapy session to the time that the Board of Trustees voted in 1973 to approve removing homi from the list of mental disorders. It was a political move.The APA was thoroughly intimidated. In 1974, after the APAs vote, Gittings was interviewed by pro-sod movement historian Jonathan Ned Katz. Gittings brags, Thats how far weve come in ten years. Now we even have the American Psy Association running scared
      IIN truth they are atheists mud rakers at their finest.

      August 21, 2012 at 7:00 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      As usual, you are wrong, Boob.
      Berube (1990) reported the results of previously unpublished studies conducted by military physicians and researchers during World War II. These studies challenged the equation of hom0s3xuality with psychopathology, as well as the stereotype that hom0s-exual recruits could not be good soldiers.
      A common conclusion in their wartime studies was that, in the words of Maj. Carl H. Jonas, who studied fifty-three white and seven black men at Camp Haan, California, "overt ho -mo-se-xuality occurs in a heterogeneous group of individuals." Dr. Clements Fry, director of the Yale University student clinic, and Edna Rostow, a social worker, who together studied the service records of 183 servicemen, discovered that there was no evidence to support the common belief that "hom-ose-xuality is uniformly correlated with specific personality traits" and concluded that generalizations about the hom-ose-xual personality "are not yet reliable."

      .... Sometimes to their amazement, [researchers] described what they called the "well-adjusted hom-ose-xuals" who, in [William] Menninger's words, "concealed their hom-ose-xuality effectively and, at the same time, made creditable records for themselves in the service." Some researchers spoke in glowing terms of these men. "The hom-os-exuals observed in the service," noted Navy doctors Greenspan and Campbell, "have been key men in responsible positions whose loss [by discharge] was acutely felt in their respective departments." They were "conscientious, reliable, well-integrated and abounding in emotional feeling and sincerity." In general, "the ho-mos-exual leads a useful productive life, conforming with all dictates of the community, except its s-exual requirements" and was "neither a burden nor a detriment to society." Fry and Rostow reported that, based on evidence in service records, hom-ose-xuals were no better or worse than other soldiers and that many "performed well in various military jobs" including combat (Berube, 1990, pp. 170-171, footnotes omitted).

      August 21, 2012 at 7:03 pm |
    • midwest rail

      For proof of a deranged individual, see post by Bob, above.

      August 21, 2012 at 7:04 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Now, let's see if bob is truly a Christian and an honest person who will admit he is wrong, or a complete fraud who will continue to lie about history.

      August 21, 2012 at 7:18 pm |
    • Bob

      So how many gays are there out there say 2% of the population and this big study sample of 54 men in the military in the midst of a world war that no one has heard of released in 1990? is the best you can come up with? The study size in so small and not under normal conditions when people are fighting for their lives. They also studied the service records not the individuals so they basically looked at reports and came up with these conclusions. Nothing whatsoever to do with real life. Plus we were talking about how gays came off the DSM nothing to do with the study you are quoting Because if the military didn't release it till the 90s how could that have figured in to the decision in the 70s??

      August 21, 2012 at 7:35 pm |
    • Karen

      Bob, present any study from any refereed scientific journal that backs up any of your claims. I doubt that you can.

      August 21, 2012 at 10:30 pm |
  12. LittleHero

    I always found the wording of the Leviticus pas.sage a little odd. If you read it in the sense "you shall not text on your cell phone as you drive a car", the real reasoning behind the rule becomes clearer. In a MMF three.some, you could never be sure of the father of any offspring. There is no rule against MFF....FFFFF – in fact it is condoned. But then again, there is no question of parentage with one man and multiple women. I say if you can interpret the bible any way you want (and most do), then this is an interpretation that I can live with.

    August 20, 2012 at 8:21 pm |
  13. Lorraine

    myweightinwords, yes, correction, the NT was in the 200ce, common era, and I said that christianity was not legalized until 311ce by Constantine, prophesied in Daniel 11:39, and vs.43 is of islam, strange gods not known to the fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And Daniel's time is yes bce, before common era, 606bce, and yes, before so called jc, as I said this folklore jc was compared to horus, and isis the Egyptian gods, and they used Amen Rah, Amen Sirapus, etc. all Egyptian, and where the idolatry began in greatness for the chosen people 'Israel' the son, and firstborn of YHWH in the book of Exodus. Oh Yes myweightinwords, these dates can be confimed accurately, if one calls Yhwh Our Righteousness at 1-773-874-0325. I'm learning,and studying. The scriptures for now, and I must work on my dates.

    yeahright, I never discriminated, or judged, gay marriage,for we all are responsible for our own righteousness on this earth to the Creator YHWH. I only quoted from the scriptures "that a man should not lay with a man, as with a woman" this is what it is. And, the origin of the law,whether christians choose to change it, for YHWH changes not, in Malachi 3:6.

    August 20, 2012 at 6:22 pm |
    • Mass Debater

      " I never discriminated, or judged, gay marriage,for we all are responsible for our own righteousness on this earth to the Creator YHWH. I only quoted from the scriptures "that a man should not lay with a man, as with a woman" this is what it is."

      Moral law's predate the invention of your deity Lorraine. Your's is just another in a long line of deitys that were proposed as the true God's who were allowed to pass judgement upon humanity. Too bad every single one of them in false, yours included, so there is no "It is what it is" about moral judgements. The only ones passing judgement are other humans loaded down with prejudice and hate and anger and jealousy. If you want to be truelly free, give up those things and embrace your fellow man whether he/she is gay or not, for only then will you start to reach enlightenment.

      August 20, 2012 at 6:38 pm |
    • Lorraine

      Mass Debater, yes you are an atheist, and I am not, there is a Creator of all life, intellects may not think that there is a Creator, but they incline to differ, and fear us,oops, lol, the possibility just the same, because although you atheist think that, that there is no Almighty Creator, yet none have the answer to how, or where originally life truly began, what it is, is just what it is. These scientist, and doctors, cannot remake skin, bone, eyes, brains, oval eggs, sperm, none of the sort, so they have no real answer to create a life other than how procreation works, where again what, and how is the very first man, or woman, animal, other creatures, either in the sea, or creeping on this earth was originally created from, as where did they first come from? Other than a survey showing that all people originated from the so called African American person. Oh, and evolution is not completely substantial of the origin of life's beginnings. And, therefore, Giving only theories, and subjective facts on the surface of the matter, and of the basic, and intricate functions, but the origin of the creation of 'life' is still questionable. Praise YHWH.

      August 20, 2012 at 9:11 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Lorraine

      I can sum up your argument in 3 words.

      Argument from Ignorance.

      August 20, 2012 at 9:12 pm |
    • JWT

      The concept that atheists fear your concept of a god is ludicrous at the very best. One does not fear what does not exists.

      And scientists can grow eyes.

      August 20, 2012 at 9:18 pm |
    • Lorraine

      JWT, stop lying, forked tongue, you are silly. All of the blind people in the world would love to hear your analysis on this scientist that can make eyes, and are they the ones that one can actually use to see with, or the ones to appear as though you have eyes? lol. Sort of like the sun glasses that look like perscription, you are silly JWT.

      August 20, 2012 at 9:28 pm |
    • Eric

      I have 2 words intelligent design. It is all around us. From the structure of the cell to the harmony of the universe.
      Is there evolution yes to an extent. did the big bang happen most likely. But ask this ill skip over matter and energy and go on to information.
      For my non believer friends what is the origin onf information. What I mean by that is quantum information.

      No one has all the answers but eventually it all goes back to intelligent design. A creator in my belief GOD.

      August 20, 2012 at 9:36 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Lorraine

      You are doing a good job of defending your red herring argument. To bad it's a useless argument.

      August 20, 2012 at 9:37 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Eric

      Intelligent Design is basically a HUGE argument from ignorance based on a false premise.

      August 20, 2012 at 9:38 pm |
    • Eric

      I am not going to debate it I have been round and round on here. Just to even think about calculating the odds of us being here in this universe all the forces of nature, matter and energy, chemistry natural selection, DNA quantium mechanics, the number aproaches infinity.

      August 20, 2012 at 9:52 pm |
    • midwest rail

      Eric – do you support codifying your beliefs through civil legislation ?

      August 20, 2012 at 9:54 pm |
    • Science

      @Eric

      I cringe whenever people say, "the odds are too high". They aren't. The numbers might be big and it seems tough to comprehend but you have to keep in mind two things. 1) your mere existence, calculated in odds is 10^2685000. That's an astronomic bit of data, and yet you are alive, so do the odds really matter after the fact? and 2) Who's to say how long creation should last? What if the universe happened and we didn't evolved for 13 trillion years instead of billions of years? Would that make more sense to you? Less? Arguing from the standpoint of, "well the odds are just way too high" is tantamount to saying it's impossible to flip a coin 10 times and it landing on hands every time. It's unlikely, but not impossible.

      August 20, 2012 at 10:05 pm |
    • JWT

      I don't lie Lorraine.

      August 21, 2012 at 6:29 am |
    • Mass Debater

      "Other than a survey showing that all people originated from the so called African American person."

      This is the funniest thing I have read all day. Thank you Lorraine, for your unabashed ignorance and your poorly thought out defense of the indefensible.

      August 21, 2012 at 7:51 pm |
  14. Lorraine

    Bob, None of this is jesus, none, this is YHWHs son "ISRAEL' the chosen people who has suffered this despise, and hate, until this day from since in Exodus 4:22,23 when they were saved. YHWHs Firstborn Son, who did wrong according to Isaiah 42:16-21, preferably vs.21, of this servant, who will come out of the son 'Israel' and who will, or has converted to the law of YHWH, wholeheartedly, offering his soul for sin, and is, or will be the intercessor for the transgressors. This is in progress right now in Jeremiah 23:1-8, of the 'last movement' before the counterfeiters over in Israel are ran out of YHWHs holy land, in Ezekiel 35, this must happen 'NEXT' then many will know the truth, of this servant, The servant works for YHWH Our Righteousness, in Isaiah 60, it will be as it was in Egypt, but only now it will be coming from out of the north country, as prophesied in Isaiah 43:1-9,(future). Praise YHWH.

    August 20, 2012 at 3:01 pm |
  15. Gary

    The American Psychological Association passed a resolution in 1975 supporting the declassification of homosexuality as a mental disorder, stating:“The research on homosexuality is very clear. Homosexuality is neither mental illness nor moral depravity. It is simply the way a minority of our population expresses human love and sexuality. Study after study documents the mental health of gay men and lesbians. Studies of judgment, stability, reliability, and social and vocational adaptiveness all show that gay men and lesbians function every bit as well as heterosexuals.”16

    The American Counseling Association, the National Association of Social Workers, and other national mental health associations have also supported the research-based conclusion that homosexuality is not an illness or mental health problem.

    Medical associations worldwide have reached many of the same findings. TheWorld Health Organization removed homosexuality from its list of disorders in 1993. Japan’s psychiatric association did so in 1995, and the Chinese followed in 2001. In December, 2002, Thailand’s Mental Health Department declared that homosexuality is not a mental disorder.

    To assert that homosexuality is not a mental disorder does not mean that all gay and lesbian people are free of emotional problems or mental illness. In fact, some studies suggest that while most gays and lesbians are well adjusted, some (especially those subjected to harassment and prejudice or living in cultures extremely intolerant of homosexuality) are at risk for higher levels of depression and anxiety (Meyer, 2003, Cochran & Mays, 2006). This is a logical and expected correlation. Depression and anxiety are common, understandable reactions to societal prejudice, religious condemnation, employment discrimination, and familial rejection.

    When it comes to the question of whether homosexuality is a mental disorder, scientific research is unanimous — it is not. Despite that research, however, many religious and political groups continue to selectively quote scientific literature to buttress arguments that homosexuality is a pathology. They often take scientific literature out of context or extrapolate information from studies that focus on other populations. Their goal is to use scientific studies to bolster arguments against giving gay and lesbian people political or civil rights.

    August 20, 2012 at 2:43 pm |
    • Bob

      The APA took gays off the DSM not because of any research but because it was a political decision and by one physc at that. Not to mention the violence by gays against the APA.

      August 20, 2012 at 6:43 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Repeating a lie won't make it true, Boob. The fact that you can't figure out how to write 'psychiatrists' or even 'shrinks', but have to use the pathetic "physic", which doesn't make any sense at all, is evidence that you're not bright enough to make a cogent argument against gay marriage.

      It just makes you look stupid.

      August 20, 2012 at 6:52 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "The APA took gays off the DSM not because of any research but because it was a political decision and by one physc at that. Not to mention the violence by gays against the APA."

      More lies that Bob is spewing based on the proven false reports of the hate sites that he uses. That's why other countries are coming to the same conclusions as the APA – Duh!

      August 20, 2012 at 6:58 pm |
    • pervert alert

      One qu eer lies the next qu eer swears to it. Qu eers the people that gave the world AIDS

      August 20, 2012 at 7:01 pm |
    • Bob

      Kay Lahusen and Barbara Gittings know what really happened to the A.P.A. In the book Making History they are quite open about the reality.Kay: This was always more of a political decision than a medical decision Barbara: It never was a medical decision and thats why I think the action came so fast. After all, it was only three years from the time that femi and gays first zapped the APA at a behavior therapy session to the time that the Board of Trustees voted in 1973 to approve removing homi from the list of mental disorders. It was a political move.The APA was thoroughly intimidated. In 1974, after the APAs vote, Gittings was interviewed by pro-sod movement historian Jonathan Ned Katz. Gittings brags, Thats how far weve come in ten years. Now we even have the American Psy Association running scared
      IIN truth they are atheists mud rakers at their finest.

      August 20, 2012 at 7:42 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      More useless conspiracy theory bullshit from Bob, with absolutely no verifiable evidence to support it.

      August 20, 2012 at 7:47 pm |
    • Bob

      Anytime a scientific organization endorses sod, remember Gittings words: They are running scared.Pro-sod activists have learned that intimidation and strategic alliances work, and they are never hesitant about using intimidation and psyc manipulation to reach the goals of their radical agenda.Adopting terrorism as a means, pro-sod activists set their vicious sights on D.r. David Reuben, one of the best-known psyc in the area of human sxu in 1974. Unbeknownst to Dr. Reuben, pro-sod activists were lying in wait outside one of his lectures and his physical safety was at risk. Pro-sod author Leigh Rutledge describes the attack in her book The Gay Decades, June 16, A fist fight broke out at a Philadelphia playhouse when ten gay activists interrupted a lecture by D.r. David Rueben and denounced him as a criminal for his views on male gay. One policeman and a protestor are injured in the melee.On that same page, the book tells us that, The Centers for Disease Control estimate that gay or bise men account for as much as one-third of the cases of syphilis
      As much as I don't want gay marriage please remember that these people are not gay. They are not US citizens some of them or at least by marriage. These are the atheists and socialists supposedly altruistic in helping the gay agenda. This is a lie the real motive is to take God out of the US and to completely change the fabric of society. I havent seen but a few gays ever post anything on this board so know who you are really fighting against.

      August 20, 2012 at 7:50 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Yup, keep going with your cut and paste Bob. All you're doing is showing how shallow your thinking actually is. The fact that you have put down very few (if any) thoughts of your own this entire article is pretty pathetic.

      August 20, 2012 at 7:54 pm |
    • Bob

      D=.r. Fred Berlin acknowledged that it was political activism, similar to that witnessed at the conference, rather than scientific considerations that successfully led to the declassification of h0m0 as a mental disorder: The reason “h0m0 was taken out of DSM is that people didn’t want the government in the bedroom,” he said As groups like B4U-ACT implore, ped are just misunderstood community members. It is society’s strictures on adult/child intimacy that are at issue, and judgmental manuals like the DSM are a large part of the problem. Hence the push by ped groups to remove pedfrom the DSM.

      August 20, 2012 at 7:56 pm |
    • therealpeace2all

      @Bob

      " As much as I don't want gay marriage please remember that these people are not gay. "

      Which people ?

      " They are not US citizens some of them or at least by marriage. "

      Who are 'they' ?

      " These are the atheists and socialists supposedly altruistic in helping the gay agenda. This is a lie the real motive is to take God out of the US and to completely change the fabric of society."

      While i can't speak for everyone else, I am for equality under the law for gays. There is no other motive for me.

      " I havent seen but a few gays ever post anything on this board so know who you are really fighting against. "

      Peace...

      August 20, 2012 at 7:58 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Bob

      More irrelevant idiocy. Please, keep demonstrating exactly what I'm talking about. Continue to show how useless you really are.

      August 20, 2012 at 7:59 pm |
    • Bob

      You guys are good first it was a lie now with credible people now its not proof but cut and paste and no personal stuff whatever. My response is below
      “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
      SOURCE: propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels used by the atheists

      August 20, 2012 at 8:02 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      So you're comparing yourself to Goebbels, now, are you, Bob? Way to aim high, bud.

      August 20, 2012 at 8:04 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Bob

      Considering you have been posting the same lies over and over since the beginning of this article, I think you just called yourself out on it. Good job.

      August 20, 2012 at 8:05 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Anyone else find it amusing that Bob is all about the "motives" of those who believe that gays should have the right to marry, yet never is willing to tell anyone what HIS motives are for opposing the same?

      August 20, 2012 at 8:07 pm |
    • JWT

      A fair number of Bob posts are pure and utter troll.

      At any rate he is one of 19% of Americans that believe gays are pedofiles. And for whatever reason he is using a religious viewpoint to focus distaste. Fortunately the number if such people is dwindling steadily and soon enough the gays will have equality.

      August 20, 2012 at 8:14 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      @Bob

      " As much as I don't want gay marriage please remember that these people are not gay. "

      Peace: Which people ?

      Tom: What Peace asked. I'm not gay. Did people have to be black to be in favor of equal rights for blacks? Did people have to be female to be in favor of equal rights for women?

      " They are not US citizens some of them or at least by marriage. "

      Peace says: Who are 'they' ?

      Tom: Good question. Next question is: How do you ascertain anyone's citizenship here, Bob? I'm a US citizen; born and raised here, with ancestors that came over on the Mayflower. Yet you continually pretend that I'm Canadian.

      Do you really think that makes you look sane?

      " These are the atheists and socialists supposedly altruistic in helping the gay agenda. This is a lie the real motive is to take God out of the US and to completely change the fabric of society."

      Tom says: God's in the US? Says who? You? This isn't a theocracy, Boob.

      How will gay marriage 'completely change the fabric of society', when gays make up less than 10 percent of the population? Has gay marriage 'changed the fabric of society' in the states where it's already legal? If so, you should be able to tell us how, and cite your sources.

      But you won't. Because you're a liar.

      August 20, 2012 at 8:19 pm |
    • Guy

      Assuming ga y marriage happens what stops the pedos from using the same arguements...they are born that way... I feel that way. It is all sin period. I will not suipport any sin. And for the its they way we were born...BS 1 there is no evidence, 2 I feel sad for the people that bel;ieve that they are being lied to. you can choose. to sin or not to, Just like i can. I struggle in a different area which is neither better or worse it is all wrong I recognize it and work on becoming more inline with Gods word.

      August 20, 2012 at 8:28 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Bob is inherently dishonest. He insists that he "knows" the motives of anyone who disagrees with his hom0phobic views, yet when asked how gay marriage has impacted society where it has been legal for some time already, either cannot or avoids answering, because he knows it hasn't affected society negatively in the slightest and he can't prove otherwise. Likewise, he refuses to reveal his own motives for opposing gay marriage, probably because he knows his reasons don't hold water and won't stand up to scrutiny or be borne out by evidence.

      He's just a liar.

      August 20, 2012 at 8:29 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh, and here comes another idiot troll who can't spell "argument" much less make one. The moron spews the same old canards Bob does, which makes me think this is just Bob using another name. Especially since this is the first time this idiot has shown up.

      Why don't you pea-brains understand the concept of "informed consent"?

      August 20, 2012 at 8:32 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Tom

      Apparently they either don't understand what "informed consent" means, or they just don't care because it gets in the way of their slippery slope rhetoric.

      August 20, 2012 at 8:35 pm |
    • JWT

      And unless you are a certain brand of cristian it is not a sin;

      August 20, 2012 at 8:37 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      HG, I think they're ignoramuses or Poes.

      August 20, 2012 at 8:37 pm |
    • therealpeace2all

      @Tom, Tom the Piper's Son

      " I'm a US citizen; born and raised here, with ancestors that came over on the *Mayflower* ".

      Very interesting... are you a member of the General Society of Mayflower Descendants too ?

      Found out i have several doc u mented lines of descendants from the Mayflower.

      Peace...

      August 20, 2012 at 8:41 pm |
    • Guy

      I am not bob and yes spelling and well really literature is not my strong point. But attempting to defame me because your opinion has no substance is and old failure of a tactic. My strengths are in other areas such as engineering and matmatics. But sorry we all can be perfect.. Tell you what Since you are better then me How about we talk electrical engineering please impress me.

      August 20, 2012 at 8:46 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Guy

      If you make stupid arguments, expect to be made fun of.

      August 20, 2012 at 8:49 pm |
    • Guy

      Why is it stupid... and i was refering to the spelling crack. As for informed consent... what the I was getting at was we will see if there is a push to lower the age of consent.
      As for statistics (and this is what i do) 40% of all se xulas as sults on children are from g ay perps. But if they are 2-3% of the population you can do the math. No I am not saying all Ga ys are pe dos but a much higher percentage is. Why is that. Could it be there was some sort of abuse in their lives as children instead of a still to be fopund genetic answer.
      Nuture over nature.

      August 20, 2012 at 8:55 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Guy

      And where did you get those stats? Also, did you take into account that we are unaware how many cases are not reported. There's also the fact that pedophelia and molestation are not about sex, but rather power and control. There are actual psychological studies that disagree with your assertions.

      August 20, 2012 at 9:05 pm |
    • Eric

      Guy is correct I have read that also. Ofcourse there are many factors and yes for the most part it isnt about se x it doesnt change the statistic though. I will try to find it.

      August 20, 2012 at 9:17 pm |
    • Eric

      I found alot of reference using this stat. Not the actual source but a quick google search will bring up alot. It seems the stat is more likely 37% with a 3% error.

      August 20, 2012 at 9:23 pm |
    • Eric

      as for the unreported group the assumption needs to be made that it is a blend of the reported statistic.

      August 20, 2012 at 9:26 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "40% of all se xulas as sults on children are from g ay perps"

      Someone doesn't understand the difference between being gay and pedophile. Pedophiles don't mature into a specific sexual orientation which is why that stat is bogus. Duh!

      August 21, 2012 at 10:41 am |
  16. Lorraine

    Mass Debater, hawaii, Unfortunately, doing right is an abstraction for many, if not all, but doing right by one another, this is what brings a loving, and peaceful and a prolonged life doing righteously among us all, and until then well, people will endure sufferings from in difference, greed, imposed poverty, sickness, hate, war, perversion, stealing, etc..all selfishness, and not right by people according to the 10 commandments.

    August 20, 2012 at 2:36 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Doing what is right has no ties to the ten commandments.

      August 20, 2012 at 2:46 pm |
    • Guy

      Have you read the 10 commandments? Pretty much keep those and yes you are doing good, but to take it one further Jesus commanded to love your neighbor as yoursefl. if you do that you will always do good.

      August 20, 2012 at 9:02 pm |
  17. Lorraine

    Shazam, Well, I don't disagree with that for it was prophesied in the 8th century with Isaiah, and in 1400bce with Moses, to be written that it would be going on in the earth, in Deut.chpts. 30-32, and had been going on for over 2000 years, from the 6th century, the sword, the whirlwinds, and droughts, has been upon this earth prophesied in Jeremiah 25. From disobeying not doing the law of righteousness, Exodus 20, Leviticus 23, and in Exodus 12, of this law until today, and gettin worst. Praise YHWH.

    August 20, 2012 at 2:28 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Your numbers are not making sense.

      Are you implying that the Isaiah of the bible lived in the 8th century CE?
      Are you stating that the distance between the 6th century and the 8th is 2000 years?
      Are you saying that Moses was alive in 1400 BCE?

      Please clarify how any of this has any bearing on the discussion at hand. I'm having difficulty understanding.

      August 20, 2012 at 2:44 pm |
    • Paul

      I agree MWW why is this stuff even being posted it's not relevant.

      August 20, 2012 at 3:04 pm |
    • Lorraine

      myweightinwords, I assume that people read Gen.-Malachi, but Moses was in the 1400bce, (before common era), and had already prophesied the wrath, and sword upon the earth in Jeremiah 25, from his writings in Deut.30-31, warning the chosen people who are the Son, and the Firstborn "ISRAEL' Exodus 4:22,23, of the Creator YHWH, of their future generations doing wrong, doing religions, and idols.

      By the way, I agree with your comment on jc knowing the prophecies, and the NT being written, around 200bce, 1st, and 2nd centuries to 'seem' to coincide with the OT books, is exactly what the jewish writers did not realistically (jc) compared jc to horus, and isis the zodiac sun gods (Egyptian stuff), but they the hellenistic jewish writers twisted a few things, changing the OT, adding, and taking away, which was warned to us not to do in Deut.4:1-4, but these are YHWH enemies taught in Psalms 83.

      Continued from my post: The 8th century is when Isaiah was told to write for YHWH of what was to come of the people, warning them again, and confirming what Moses said to them before, but Isaiah also had other duties from YHWH to do. Now the 6th century was in Daniel time, he prophesied the 4th kingdom, us now, since 300ce, the same faith of the people doing idols, all are false religion, christianity legalized by Constantine in 311ce, islam, and others, they are not of Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob, nor YHWH, and of the corrupted governments to rule in the future centuries over the people, brining more suffering, and hardships in Daniel 11:20-45. Making it the prophecies from 3rd century on to now days about 2000, to 2500 years prophesied by Daniel in the 6th century, from 586bce, to 606bce, a long time before the 4th common era.

      My question to you is how do you figure that th 10 commandments are not the law of righteousness, for us all to do right by one another? These are the laws to live by to help us to have a prolonged our life; as Job lived for 4 generations, happily with all his family, and who were also happy together doing the law, the10 commandments. As is describe in (Isaiah 53:10), of the servant that's chosen from YHWH, he too will 'prolong his days' if he converts to the law of righteousness, as he shall see his 'seed' this means when he realizes who he is.

      That's why the 2nd verse says that he is a root out of dry ground, he has to convert to righteousness, he didn't know who he was at first until he grew to know, and is why it says in verse 12, he was numbered with the transgressors, he 'bare' did wrong too, the sins of many, but made intercessor, (turned his life around) praying, working for the transgressors for YHWH telling them to convert, pouring out his soul. The same thing that his chosen descendant David and the seeds after him for generations have to do, get it right. his one has, or will get it this time for it is prophesied. Remember YHWHs ways, and thoughts of times are not like ours in Isaiah 55:1-11. YHWH Bless.

      August 20, 2012 at 4:33 pm |
    • Lorraine

      mweightinwords, I forgot your other question of how it relates to the topic here,well the prophesies confirm why these things are occurring, men wanting to marry men, and women marring women, in Jeremiah 50:37, and mayhem in our world, and other things while we are running to, and fro, with increased knowledge, Daniel 12:1-4. Nothing but in a mess of hate, in difference, greed, perversion, imposed poverty, etc, etc. with no natural affection for one another no matter the skin, or what have you, all not as one, so these other cruel, or unexplained things will be.

      August 20, 2012 at 4:47 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Nothing but in a mess of hate, in difference, greed, perversion, imposed poverty, etc, etc. with no natural affection for one another no matter the skin, or what have you, all not as one, so these other cruel, or unexplained things will be."

      Nothing you wrote there has anything to do with the loving long term relationship of a gay couple as we know and understand it to be normal today, which is what this subject is about. If you want to talk about those other things this is not the thread to be doing it. Duh!

      August 20, 2012 at 4:53 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      myweightinwords, I assume that people read Gen.-Malachi, but Moses was in the 1400bce, (before common era), and had already prophesied the wrath, and sword upon the earth in Jeremiah 25, from his writings in Deut.30-31, warning the chosen people who are the Son, and the Firstborn "ISRAEL' Exodus 4:22,23, of the Creator YHWH, of their future generations doing wrong, doing religions, and idols.

      Your dates are at the very least questionable, but seeing as there is no archaeological evidence for the exodus from Egypt or the 40 years of wandering, there is no way to be sure exactly the date of the myth's origins.

      By the way, I agree with your comment on jc knowing the prophecies, and the NT being written, around 200bce, 1st, and 2nd centuries to 'seem' to coincide with the OT books,

      Again with the dates. The new testament was NOT written around 200 BCE. It was penned somewhere around 100 CE. Most estimates put the earliest of the gospels somewhere between 30 and 60 CE.

      is exactly what the jewish writers did not realistically (jc) compared jc to horus, and isis the zodiac sun gods (Egyptian stuff), but they the hellenistic jewish writers twisted a few things, changing the OT, adding, and taking away, which was warned to us not to do in Deut.4:1-4, but these are YHWH enemies taught in Psalms 83.

      A small group, smarting from the loss of their leader, sought to make him appear more than he was. I doubted even they knew the religion they would start.

      Continued from my post: The 8th century is when Isaiah was told to write for YHWH of what was to come of the people, warning them again, and confirming what Moses said to them before, but Isaiah also had other duties from YHWH to do. Now the 6th century was in Daniel time, he prophesied the 4th kingdom, us now, since 300ce, the same faith of the people doing idols, all are false religion, christianity legalized by Constantine in 311ce, islam, and others, they are not of Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob, nor YHWH, and of the corrupted governments to rule in the future centuries over the people, brining more suffering, and hardships in Daniel 11:20-45.

      So Isaiah and Daniel came after Jesus? That is what your dates are implying. Or are you simply not using complete notations? Do you mean 8th century BCE? Generally, if you leave that off it is assumed you are speaking of CE. Thus my confusion.

      It is easy to stand and prophecy that in the future there will be strange new religions, that people will do things foreign to our understanding, and swear that our gods will not be pleased...and be correct...because it is the nature of human beings to change, to modify our beliefs to fit our experience, to seek out new understanding, change the way we dress and do our hair, and unfortunately, it is in our nature to fight over stupid crap like land and religion.

      Doesn't take any special dispensation from any god to do so.

      August 20, 2012 at 5:21 pm |
  18. YeahRight

    Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

    Social science has shown that the concerns often raised about children of lesbian and gay parents—concerns that are generally grounded in prejudice against and stereotypes about gay people — are unfounded. Overall, the research indicates that the children of lesbian and gay parents do not differ from the children of heterosexual parents in their development, adjustment, or overall well-being.

    August 20, 2012 at 2:22 pm |
  19. John

    Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.

    Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.

    There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.

    Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.

    1 Corinthians 6:9 -11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.

    Thus; it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?

    Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).

    That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex.

    August 20, 2012 at 2:20 pm |
  20. Bob

    Bible prophecy: Isaiah 53:12
    Prophecy written: Between 701-681 BC
    Prophecy fulfilled: About 31 AD
    In Isaiah 53:12, the prophet wrote about a servant who would bear the sins of others and be punished side-by-side with criminals. Christians acknowledge that Isaiah's description of this servant was a prophecy that was fulfilled during the life of Jesus Christ. As explained in the book of Matthew, Jesus, though sinless, was "numbered with the transgressors" and crucified along with two criminals. – Copyright © George Konig, Ray Konig and Isaiah 53:12:
    Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
    Isaiah 53:9:
    He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
    Bible prophecy: Isaiah 53:4-6
    Prophecy written: Between 701-681 BC
    Prophecy fulfilled: About 31 AD
    In Isaiah 53:4-6, prophet described a servant as being punished for the sins of others, and that others would be healed by the wounds of this person. As explained in the New Testament – such as in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John – Jesus was crucified for our sins, and he was sinless. Christians believe that this ultimate sacrifice redeemed us all from sin in the same way that lambs and other animals were once sacrificed as a symbolic way of cleansing people from sin. All of us can be accepted into the Kingdom of God, as though we were sinless, if we accept Jesus as our savior. Christians believe that we are healed through the wounds that Jesus suffered

    August 20, 2012 at 2:00 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      More useless biblical idiocy. Is there anything else you can ever post Bob? Oh wait that's right, your religion doesn't like you actually thinking for yourself. Too bad, maybe then you'd realize that even if the story was true, it wasn't a sacrifice.

      August 20, 2012 at 2:22 pm |
    • Mass Debater

      Thats it Bob, stroke it, stroke it, long hard strokes of bible study and a healthy squirt from the bottle of lubrication that is faith and you just might get your ego er.ect this time. Try a bit more bashing of other humans and devaluing their lives to get you a little closer to that point of extasy, that moment of arrival when your eyes roll back in your head and you begin to cry uncontrollably "Yes! Yes! Yes! I am the biggest Bigot on the planet! I win! I win! Hahahahaha!!! Being mean and vindictive to other humans by pointing out how terrible they are and how great I am is what I live for!! Hahahah!! Judge this you que.ers!!"

      August 20, 2012 at 2:24 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Of course, those that wrote the stories of Jesus knew of these prophecies and could easily have written the story to coincide with the prophecy. And since we have no contemporary witness outside of the faith documents known as the gospels (which do not always agree on the "facts"), there is no way to prove any of it.

      It is a matter of faith. Nothing more.

      August 20, 2012 at 2:41 pm |
    • Lorraine

      None of this is jesus, none, this is YHWHs son "ISRAEL' the chosen people who has suffered this despise, and hate, until this day from since in Exodus 4:22,23, YHWHs Firstborn Son, who did wrong according to Isaiah 42:16-21, preferably vs.21, of this servant who will, or has converted to the law of YHWH, wholeheartedly, offering his soul for sin, and is, or will be the intercessor for the transgressors, this is in progress now in Jeremiah 23:1-8, of the last movement before the conterfeiters in Israel are ran out of YHWHs holy land, in Ezekiel 35, this must happen 'NEXT' then many will know the truth, of this servant of YHWH Our Righteousness, Isaiah 60, it will be as was in Egypt, but only now it will be coming from out of the north country, as prophesied in Isaiah 43:1-9,(future). Praise YHWH.

      August 20, 2012 at 2:55 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.