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My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage
The author backs same-sex marriage because of his faith, not in spite of it.
May 19th, 2012
02:00 AM ET

My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage

Editor's Note: Mark Osler is a Professor of Law at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

By Mark Osler, Special to CNN

I am a Christian, and I am in favor of gay marriage. The reason I am for gay marriage is because of my faith.

What I see in the Bible’s accounts of Jesus and his followers is an insistence that we don’t have the moral authority to deny others the blessing of holy institutions like baptism, communion, and marriage. God, through the Holy Spirit, infuses those moments with life, and it is not ours to either give or deny to others.

A clear instruction on this comes from Simon Peter, the “rock” on whom the church is built. Peter is a captivating figure in the Christian story. Jesus plucks him out of a fishing boat to become a disciple, and time and again he represents us all in learning at the feet of Christ.

During their time together, Peter is often naïve and clueless – he is a follower, constantly learning.

After Jesus is crucified, though, a different Peter emerges, one who is forceful and bold. This is the Peter we see in the Acts of the Apostles, during a fevered debate over whether or not Gentiles should be baptized. Peter was harshly criticized for even eating a meal with those who were uncircumcised; that is, those who did not follow the commands of the Old Testament.

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Peter, though, is strong in confronting those who would deny the sacrament of baptism to the Gentiles, and argues for an acceptance of believers who do not follow the circumcision rules of Leviticus (which is also where we find a condemnation of homosexuality).

His challenge is stark and stunning: Before ordering that the Gentiles be baptized Peter asks “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

None of us, Peter says, has the moral authority to deny baptism to those who seek it, even if they do not follow the ancient laws. It is the flooding love of the Holy Spirit, which fell over that entire crowd, sinners and saints alike, that directs otherwise.

My Take: Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality

It is not our place, it seems, to sort out who should be denied a bond with God and the Holy Spirit of the kind that we find through baptism, communion, and marriage. The water will flow where it will.

Intriguingly, this rule will apply whether we see homosexuality as a sin or not. The water is for all of us. We see the same thing at the Last Supper, as Jesus gives the bread and wine to all who are there—even to Peter, who Jesus said would deny him, and to Judas, who would betray him.

The question before us now is not whether homosexuality is a sin, but whether being gay should be a bar to baptism or communion or marriage.

Your Take: Rethinking the Bible on homosexuality

The answer is in the Bible. Peter and Jesus offer a strikingly inclusive form of love and engagement. They hold out the symbols of Gods’ love to all. How arrogant that we think it is ours to parse out stingily!

I worship at St. Stephens, an Episcopal church in Edina, Minnesota. There is a river that flows around the back and side of that church with a delightful name: Minnehaha Creek. That is where we do baptisms.

The Rector stands in the creek in his robes, the cool water coursing by his feet, and takes an infant into his arms and baptizes her with that same cool water. The congregation sits on the grassy bank and watches, a gentle army.

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At the bottom of the creek, in exactly that spot, is a floor of smooth pebbles. The water rushing by has rubbed off the rough edges, bit by bit, day by day. The pebbles have been transformed by that water into something new.

I suppose that, as Peter put it, someone could try to withhold the waters of baptism there. They could try to stop the river, to keep the water from some of the stones, like a child in the gutter building a barrier against the stream.

It won’t last, though. I would say this to those who would withhold the water of baptism, the joy of worship, or the bonds of marriage: You are less strong than the water, which will flow around you, find its path, and gently erode each wall you try to erect.

The redeeming power of that creek, and of the Holy Spirit, is relentless, making us all into something better and new.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Mark Osler.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Christianity • Episcopal • Gay marriage • My Take • Opinion

soundoff (15,115 Responses)
  1. YeahRight

    “While we have been to hell and back on this issue the truth comes down to this the author of this article is sorely mislead and trips on the fantasies of his own mind, he must have been a flower child.”

    Another LIE and no this author is not mislead since there are thousands of gay churches now, gay clergy and gays are getting married in their churches.

    “The truth is that there is NO support for gays in the Bible except to say they are welcome to receive Jesus as Lord of their lives. Any continuation on the H0m0 lifestyle is strictly forbidden and carries penalties with it.”

    No, only prejudice bigots like you read that into the bible, nowhere does it condemn the long term loving relationship of a gay couple. What it does condemn is rape, male prostitution and worshipping a pagan god using sex.

    “ Jesus does provide a way out of this lifestyle and will heal the hurts that allowed a person to enter in to it in the first place.”

    This is just your prejudice opinion that is not based on any real facts. Gay people aren’t gay because they’ve been hurt. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience.

    “The atheists here don't know the Bible and I seriously doubt have any gay friends much less real friends so they speak not from any caring point but to take The Bible out of society.”

    More lies from Bob as usual. This is about civil rights for gay couples so they can protect their families just like straights can. It’s you Bob that doesn’t care about gays or their families by all the lies and hate you’ve spewed on this thread. Including campaigning against them getting their civil right in marriage.

    “That is there motive and plans the gay rights issue is a mere stepping stone to a God less society for them.”

    Another lie from Bob since gay marriage is legal in several states and countries and those societies are doing just fine.

    “May they either receive the truth of the Bible or pay justly for their deeds which are well known.”

    This is coming from a person who is proven liar who only purpose here it to continue to fuel the hatred and bigotry toward this minority group. Everything he has posted has been from well know hate groups whose reports have been proven bogus by all the experts in this country. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

    August 27, 2012 at 11:23 am |
  2. 250 Minister's Proclamation

    As Christian clergy we proclaim the Good News concerning Lesbian; Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) persons and publicly apologize where we have been silent. As disciples of Jesus, who assures us that the truth sets us free, we recognize that the debate is over. The verdict is in. Homosexuality is not a sickness, not a choice, and not a sin. We find no rational biblical or theological basis to condemn or deny the rights of any person based on sexual orientation. Silence by many has allowed political and religious rhetoric to monopolize public perception, creating the impression that there is only one Christian perspective on this issue. Yet we recognize and celebrate that we are far from alone, as Christians, in affirming that LGBT persons are distinctive, holy, and precious gifts to all who struggle to become the family of God.

    In repentance and obedience to the Holy Spirit, we stand in solidarity as those who are committed to work and pray for full acceptance and inclusion of LGBT persons in our churches and in our world. We lament that LGBT persons are condemned and excluded by individuals and institutions, political and religious, who claim to be speaking the truth of Christian teaching. This leads directly and indirectly to intolerance, discrimination, suffering, and even death. The Holy Spirit compels us:

    - to affirm that the essence of Christian life is not focused on sexual orientation, but how one lives by grace in relationship with God, with compassion toward humanity;

    – to embrace the full inclusion of our LGBT brothers and sisters in all areas of church life, including leadership;

    – to declare that the violence must stop. Christ’s love moves us to work for the healing of wounded souls who are victims of abuse often propagated in the name of Christ;

    – to celebrate the prophetic witness of all people who have refused to let the voice of intolerance and violence speak for Christianity, especially LGBT persons, who have met hatred with love;

    Therefore we call for an end to all religious and civil discrimination against any person based on sexual orientation and gender identity and expression. All laws must include and protect the freedoms, rights, and equal legal standing of all persons, in and outside the church.

    August 27, 2012 at 10:42 am |
  3. James

    "The Bible out of society. That is there motive and plans the gay rights issue is a mere stepping stone to a God less society for them"

    The scriptures actually say nothing about homosexuality as a psychosexual orientation. Our understandings of sexual orientation are distinctly modern ones that were not present in the minds of Scripture writers. A few passages of Scripture (seven at the most) object to certain types of same-sex expressions or acts. The particular acts in question, however, are sexual expressions which are exploitative, oppressive, commercialized, or offensive to ancient purity rituals. There is no Scriptural guidance for same-sex relationships which are loving and mutually respecting. Guidelines for these relationships should come from the same general Scriptural norms that apply to heterosexual relationships.

    August 27, 2012 at 10:40 am |
  4. Erik

    "Jesus does provide a way out of this lifestyle and will heal the hurts that allowed a person to enter in to it in the first place. '

    You've got that all wrong.
    Being gay is not a choice science, in fact, is actually not in dispute on this matter.

    All major medical professional organizations concur that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed, from gay to straight or otherwise. The American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and European Psychological, Psychiatric, and Medical Associations all agree with this, as does the World Health Organization and the medical organizations of Japan, China, and most recently, Thailand. Furthermore, attempts to change one's sexual orientation can be psychologically damaging, and cause great inner turmoil and depression, especially for Christian gays and lesbians.

    Reparative therapy, also called conversion therapy or reorientation therapy, "counsels" LGBT persons to pray fervently and study Bible verses, often utilizing 12-step techniques that are used to treat sexual addictions or trauma. Such Christian councilors are pathologizing homosexuality, which is not a pathology but is a sexual orientation. Psychologically, that's very dangerous territory to tread on. All of the above-mentioned medical professional organizations, in addition to the American and European Counseling Associations, stand strongly opposed to any form of reparative therapy.

    In my home country, Norway, reparative therapy is officially considered to be ethical malpractice. But there are many countries that do not regulate the practice, and many others that remain largely silent and even passively supportive of it (such as the Philippines). Groups that operate such "therapy" in the Philippines are the Evangelical Bagong Pag-asa, and the Catholic Courage Philippines.

    The scientific evidence of the innateness of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism is overwhelming, and more peer-reviewed studies which bolster this fact are being added all the time. Science has long regarded sexual orientation – and that's all sexual orientations, including heterosexuality – as a phenotype. Simply put, a phenotype is an observable set of properties that varies among individuals and is deeply rooted in biology. For the scientific community, the role of genetics in sexuality is about as "disputable" as the role of evolution in biology.

    On the second point, that there is no conclusion that there is a "gay gene," they are right. No so-called gay gene has been found, and it's highly unlikely that one ever will. This is where conservative Christians and Muslims quickly say "See, I told you so! There's no gay gene, so being gay is a choice!"

    Take this interesting paragraph I found on an Evangelical website: "The attempt to prove that homosexuality is determined biologically has been dealt a knockout punch. An American Psychological Association publication includes an admission that there's no homosexual "gene" – meaning it's not likely that homosexuals are 'born that way.'"

    But that's not at all what it means, and it seems Evangelicals are plucking out stand-alone phrases from scientific reports and removing them from their context. This is known in academia as the fallacy of suppressed evidence. Interestingly, this is also what they have a habit of doing with verses from the Bible.

    This idea of sexuality being a choice is such a bizarre notion to me as a man of science. Many of these reparative "therapists" are basing this concept on a random Bible verse or two. When you hold those up against the mountain of scientific research that has been conducted, peer-reviewed, and then peer-reviewed again, it absolutely holds no water. A person's sexuality – whether heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual – is a very deep biological piece of who that person is as an individual.

    The fact that a so-called "gay gene" has not been discovered does not mean that homosexuality is not genetic in its causation. This is understandably something that can seem a bit strange to those who have not been educated in fields of science and advanced biology, and it is also why people who are not scientists ought not try to explain the processes in simple black-and-white terms. There is no gay gene, but there is also no "height gene" or "skin tone gene" or "left-handed gene." These, like sexuality, have a heritable aspect, but no one dominant gene is responsible for them.

    Many genes, working in sync, contribute to the phenotype and therefore do have a role in sexual orientation. In many animal model systems, for example, the precise genes involved in sexual partner selection have been identified, and their neuro-biochemical pathways have been worked out in great detail. A great number of these mechanisms have been preserved evolutionarily in humans, just as they are for every other behavioral trait we know (including heterosexuality).

    Furthermore, there are many biologic traits which are not specifically genetic but are biologic nonetheless. These traits are rooted in hormonal influences, contributed especially during the early stages of fetal development. This too is indisputable and based on extensive peer-reviewed research the world over. Such prenatal hormonal influences are not genetic per se, but are inborn, natural, and biologic nevertheless.

    Having said that, in the realm of legal rights, partnership rights, and anti-discrimination protections, the gay gene vs. choice debate is actually quite irrelevant. Whether or not something is a choice is not a suitable criterion for whether someone should have equal rights and protections. Religion is indisputably a choice, but that fact is a not a valid argument for discriminating against a particular religion.

    August 27, 2012 at 10:37 am |
  5. John

    Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.

    Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.

    There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.

    Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.

    Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti–Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?

    Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).

    That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex

    August 27, 2012 at 10:35 am |
  6. Bob

    While we have been to hell and back on this issue the truth comes down to this the author of this article is sorely mislead and trips on the fantasies of his own mind, he must have been a flower child. The truth is that there is NO support for gays in the Bible except to say they are welcome to receive Jesus as Lord of their lives. Any continuation on the H0m0 lifestyle is strictly forbidden and carries penalties with it. Gays should be supported and welcomed in churches like everyone else but they are not to be in ministry just as anyone else who is in sin. Jesus does provide a way out of this lifestyle and will heal the hurts that allowed a person to enter in to it in the first place. I actually think that is a failing of the church to throw out the ones that are having a hard time conforming rather than showing the true love of Jesus to them. The atheists here don't know the Bible and I seriously doubt have any gay friends much less real friends so they speak not from any caring point but to take The Bible out of society. That is there motive and plans the gay rights issue is a mere stepping stone to a God less society for them. May they either receive the truth of the Bible or pay justly for their deeds which are well known.

    August 27, 2012 at 7:27 am |
    • WASP

      @BOB: which god? and btw how can the world be any worse than it is without all these religious freaks trying to either convert more meat for the grinder or using their "holy book" to promote hate and exclusiveness? seriously if all humans stopped and thought about it we are all just human, nothing more nothing less and no more important in the grand scheme of things than anything else in this universe. you want to know how special you are BOB? this is how special and important you are, HUGE rock hurdles toward earth your god does which of the following?
      A) moves the meteor away from earth to protect "his children"
      B) blinks and destroys the meteor with his "magical powers"
      C) absolutely nothing at all because he is made up just like the other billion gods throughout history.

      humans have equal rights under the law and the sooner you set aside the indoctrination of hate and seclusion you were taught as a child the better life will be for all.

      August 27, 2012 at 8:00 am |
    • Douglas

      Bob,

      Outstanding!

      Best,
      Douglas

      August 27, 2012 at 8:01 am |
    • Bob

      @wasp
      Most don't know the Bible and most don't show the love of Jesus so it is represented wrong. Jesus had rules which everyone needs a lawless society would be ugly. But in that law He had compassion and love for those that were lost or in sin. The church's today don't have to compromise there beliefs they have to stand on them and welcome people in love. I came to the Lord because I felt and saw the compassion and long suffering He had for people not only those that were saved but the unsaved ones as well. Christianity is not a exclusive society as some churches bordering on the deeds of the pharisees would display. But a place of welcoming all and doing good even to the unsaved in the name of the Lord. Why would I come to the Lord if I hurt, to get more hurt?? Its not the work of man but God that changes a mans soul and cleans him up. But it is the Love that draws him in. Its not mans criticism but the love that changes hearts.

      August 27, 2012 at 8:48 am |
    • myweightinwords

      Hi Bob. Good morning, I hope this new week treats you well.

      While we have been to hell and back on this issue the truth comes down to this the author of this article is sorely mislead and trips on the fantasies of his own mind, he must have been a flower child.

      Why? Because he has a different interpretation of your holy book than you do?

      The truth is that there is NO support for gays in the Bible except to say they are welcome to receive Jesus as Lord of their lives.

      This is your truth, Bob. As has been pointed out many people disagree, using the same scripture you do.

      Any continuation on the H0m0 lifestyle is strictly forbidden and carries penalties with it.

      And again we're back to using "lifestyle". Being gay is not a lifestyle. It is who a person is. So you believe that there is a penalty for simply being who a person was born to be?

      Gays should be supported and welcomed in churches like everyone else but they are not to be in ministry just as anyone else who is in sin.

      Then according to your own doctrine, no one should be in ministry, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of god, right?

      Jesus does provide a way out of this lifestyle and will heal the hurts that allowed a person to enter in to it in the first place.

      Hurts? What hurts? And again with the lifestyle. You do know that there are gay people in most every sort of lifestyle right? Soccer moms, PTA parents, swingers, party people, political people, religious people. Being gay is not a lifestyle. It is a sexual orientation.

      And Jesus does not offer a way out of how you were born, Bob. By your own theology, he made them, he loves them, he accepts them as they are.

      Or are you saying that Jesus didn't eat with tax collectors and prostitutes?

      I actually think that is a failing of the church to throw out the ones that are having a hard time conforming rather than showing the true love of Jesus to them.

      True, unconditional love, of the kind Jesus spoke of in the bible, is highly rare in this world, and seldom seen in a church. I never found it in Christianity at all. I had to walk away from the bible, from the god of Christianity to find it.

      The atheists here don't know the Bible and I seriously doubt have any gay friends much less real friends so they speak not from any caring point but to take The Bible out of society.

      Many of the atheists here actually do know the bible quite well. They simply interpret it differently than you do. Many atheists become atheists after thorough study of the bible, its history and origins and its effects on the people who believe.

      Out of curiosity Bob, how many gay people do you know? You keep harping on the atheists here not being gay or knowing any gay people, but you have not once spoken with regard to any in your life. Why does this issue matter so intensely to you?

      So many of my friends are lesbian, gay, bi or trans or allies that I forget sometimes that not everyone is.

      That is there motive and plans the gay rights issue is a mere stepping stone to a God less society for them. May they either receive the truth of the Bible or pay justly for their deeds which are well known.

      Our society IS godless Bob, at least here in the US. We are a nation founded upon the principle that the government can in no way, shape or form, endorse, outlaw or otherwise speak to any god...yours, mine or anyone else's. God, and religion, is solely an individual mandate. You believe as your heart leads. I will do the same.

      August 27, 2012 at 10:58 am |
  7. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

    Nothing the bible says makes even the slightest difference in this issue, which is one of civil law and not religious belief. Eventually the issue will be decided in a court of law, and the bible and windbags like Boob will be irrelevant.

    It's only a matter of time.

    August 26, 2012 at 11:05 pm |
    • nope

      @tom tom
      nope

      August 26, 2012 at 11:07 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      "nope" what?

      Oh, never mind, you retard. Who'd care?

      August 26, 2012 at 11:09 pm |
    • Prop8t

      "Eventually the issue will be decided in a court of law, and the bible and windbags like Boob will be irrelevant."

      @TTPS

      Is it the court where the witnesses swear on the 'Bible' and ask for God's help, isn't?

      August 26, 2012 at 11:42 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You haven't been on a jury in quite some time, have you? Because if you HAD, you fvckin' idiot, you'd know that they do nothing of the sort.

      August 26, 2012 at 11:46 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      It's amazing that someone as stupid as Propt8 earns enough money to buy a computer. Where'd you get the idiotic notion that witnesses in any court still swear on a bible? And are you truly so clueless that you think the SCOTUS operates that way?

      Let me guess. You got all your legal training from watching Night Court and Perry Mason reruns, didn't you?

      August 26, 2012 at 11:51 pm |
    • MAJORITY (always WINS)

      In the end of the day, there's no one who'll decide but ME. And I always WIN!

      Face it; deal with it; and get it over with!

      August 26, 2012 at 11:52 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      No, dear, but have a cookie. You don't win if the SCOTUS rules otherwise.

      August 26, 2012 at 11:54 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Maybe it will make you feel better to know that polls show that the majority of voters think gay marriage should be legal.

      So if you're right and the MAJORITY ALWAYS WINS, we'll both be happy.

      Right?

      August 26, 2012 at 11:56 pm |
    • CJ&Jury

      I have sworn on the Bible upon assumption of office, so what's your point? Tube Tom?

      August 27, 2012 at 12:05 am |
    • MAJORITY always WINS

      Tom Tom

      Absolutely! Bottoms up! From California....to the world. CHEERS!!LOL!

      August 27, 2012 at 12:14 am |
    • Prop8t

      CHEERS!!!!!!!!!!!

      August 27, 2012 at 12:17 am |
    • Bob

      Yup any movement to accept gay marriage has only been through the courts and through ass hole politicians getting paid off. As for the stats there have been a problem lately because they do not reflect what really happens when people vote so there is a disconnect between the stats and actual votes.

      August 27, 2012 at 7:02 am |
    • WASP

      @majority always: ummmm incorrect on so many levels, if the majority always won we would still have slavery, segregation, no women would have rights.........kindof how the republicans and religious want the world to return to when they say "the good ol' days" those days weren't good for everyone, that's why they're the "old days"

      August 27, 2012 at 7:39 am |
  8. Bob

    Two large studies asked h0m0 respondents to explain the origins of their desires and behaviors – how they "got that way." The first of these studies was conducted by Kinsey in the 1940s and involved 1700 h0m0. The second, in 1970, involved 979 h0m0. Both were conducted prior to the period when the "gay rights" movement started to politicize the issue of h0m0 origins. Both reported essentially the same findings: H0m0 overwhelmingly believed their feelings and behavior were the result of social or environmental influences.
    In a 1983 study conducted by the Family Research involving a random sample of 147 h0m0 35% said their desires were hereditary. Interestingly, almost 80% of the 3,400 hetero in the same study said that their preferences and behavior were learned

    August 25, 2012 at 11:12 am |
    • Huebert

      @Bob

      By today's standards Kinsey's methods were quite flawed. People overwhelmingly attribute their own behavior to environmental factors and attribute the behavior of others to personal factors. This effect is so frequent and so pervasive that is refereed to the fundamental attribution error.

      Additionally, environmental factors do play a considerable role in the development of se.xuality. A recent twin study found that in the case of identical twins, who have identical genetics, If one of the twins is gay their is about a 50% chance that the other twin will identify as gay. Where as with fraternal twins, not genetically identical, if one twin identified as gay the other twin only had a slightly elevated chance, over the general population, of identifying as gay. This means that genetic and environmental factors each account for about half of the variance in se.xuality.

      And finally, just to head off this argument, their is no single "gay gene". Of course their is no single "tall gene" either. Why you would expect their to be a single gene for something as complex as se.xuality when their isn't a single gene for something as simple as height is beyond me.

      August 25, 2012 at 11:35 am |
    • Douglas

      Bob,

      Keep up the good work!

      Remember, the Bible is not on trial here...sin is.

      There is no "Christian case" for gay marriage.

      Gay marriage and gay coitus are prohibited in the Bible.

      Best,
      Douglas

      August 25, 2012 at 12:15 pm |
    • Huebert

      @Doug

      No the claims in the bible are what is on trial here, that includes the claim that god and sin exist. If god would like to weigh in on the discussion he is free to do so.

      August 25, 2012 at 12:29 pm |
    • Douglas

      @ Huebert,

      Incorrect, the theme of this forum is the "Christian case for gay marriage".
      This is an attempt by the lead author, Mr. Osler, to fold acceptance of gay marriage and gay coitus into Christian orthodoxy as defined in the BIble.

      The BIble, God's word is eternal. Attempts at reinterpretations, like Osler's, are futile at best.
      At the conclusion of the Book of Revelation, revisionists, like Osler, are warned to refrain from such practices.

      Yes...the Bible stands as the reference point. Sin falls short of the mark.
      Gay marriage and gay coitus are inconsistent with Biblical direction.

      Sin remains on trial and remains convicted for eternity.
      Throw away the key.

      Best,
      Douglas

      August 25, 2012 at 12:49 pm |
    • save the world and slap some sense into a christard today!

      It is coming. Gay marriage that is. Why? Because it is quickly being seen more and more as a civil rights issue. And as such, because of the implications of marriage as a tradition crossing into the realm of civil law, it is also being seen as conflicted with the ideals outlined for separation of church and state. It is just a matter of time and then the US will begin to catch up to some of the more civilized parts of the world on this issue.

      August 27, 2012 at 12:06 am |
    • Cq

      Douglas
      The conclusion of the Book of Revelation refers just to the Book of Revelation. It's a misinterpretation to apply that warning to the entire Bible because it would by hundreds of years after Revelation was written before the canon was decided, right?

      August 27, 2012 at 12:29 am |
  9. Bob

    Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
    Joh 8:35 "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
    Joh 8:36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
    Joh 8:37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
    Joh 8:38 "I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father."
    Joh 8:39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus *said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham.
    Joh 8:40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
    Joh 8:41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God."
    Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
    Joh 8:43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
    Joh 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

    August 25, 2012 at 9:29 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      So you have no studies or research that you can cite?

      What about your claims? Nothing to back them up?

      What about the questions mwiw asked you? No answers?

      What about the fact that you insisted that "NO STUDIES" were done before the 1973 APA decision? Are you going to admit you were wrong? Or are you going to continue to act like a toddler?

      August 25, 2012 at 9:41 am |
    • Bob

      Tom you pointed to 2 studies one wasn't released til 1990 by the gov and that wasn't a study on individuals it was all paperwork. The other was H00ker that was 56 people all picked by the communist party done for one purpose to skew gays to look favorable so that the socialists could start to take gays off the DSM. So it boils down to one study against hundred's of previous studies that really are abysmal against gays. If you want to say that you found the needle in the haystack then that is what you have done. Does it have any validity, not really and sighting that study is showing the fact that there is no new studies that support gay lifestyle. Because like I said before if you start to look at what they were actually hoping to achieve in that study,( that gays look the same as everyone else) then that is such a poor example it would embarrass me to present it.

      August 25, 2012 at 10:14 am |
    • therealpeace2all

      @Bob

      How's it going today, Bob ?

      Peace...

      August 25, 2012 at 10:17 am |
    • Huebert

      "So it boils down to one study against hundred's of previous studies that really are abysmal against gays"

      Please cite one of the hundreds of studies you seem to know so much about. And I mean an actual journal citation, not "my pastor told me that..."

      August 25, 2012 at 10:20 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      So you have no studies at all to cite, Bob?

      Are you admitting that studies were indeed performed before 1973?

      August 25, 2012 at 10:20 am |
    • Bob

      Hello peace nice to hear from you. Doing very well today. Getting a little time to relax time in prayer and listening to the Lord and rejoicing that my footsteps are ordered by Him. I hope all is well with you also.

      August 25, 2012 at 10:21 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You are doing that while lying on here?

      I'm sure god is thrilled with you.

      August 25, 2012 at 10:38 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      How do you explain the fact that Ho oker's study was replicated by others with the same results, Boob?

      August 25, 2012 at 10:41 am |
    • therealpeace2all

      @Bob

      Good to hear, Bob...

      Peace...

      August 25, 2012 at 10:42 am |
    • Simran

      Bob,
      What exactly is your point here by these citings of the Bible?

      August 25, 2012 at 10:49 am |
    • Bob

      The Gay Report, published by h0m0 researchers Jay and Young in 1979, revealed that 73 percent of h0m0 surveyed had at some time had relations with boys 16 to 19 years of age or younger.5 (5. K. Jay and A. Young, The Gay Report (New York: Summit Books, 1979), p. 275. )
      Many of the most famous serial (e.g., Jeffrey Dahmer, Andrew Cunanan, John Wayne Gacy, etc.) were h0m0
      Did you hear about the 18 arrested in Calif because of having intercourse in the bathrooms??

      August 25, 2012 at 11:10 am |
    • Huebert

      @Bob

      By today's standards Kinsey's methods were quite flawed. People overwhelmingly attribute their own behavior to environmental factors and attribute the behavior of others to personal factors. This effect is so frequent and so pervasive that is refereed to the fundamental attribution error.

      Additionally, environmental factors do play a considerable role in the development of se.xuality. A recent twin study found that in the case of identical twins, who have identical genetics, If one of the twins is gay their is about a 50% chance that the other twin will identify as gay. Where as with fraternal twins, not genetically identical, if one twin identified as gay the other twin only had a slightly elevated chance, over the general population, of identifying as gay. This means that genetic and environmental factors each account for about half of the variance in se.xuality.

      And finally, just to head off this argument, their is no single "gay gene". Of course their is no single "tall gene" either. Why you would expect their to be a single gene for something as complex as se.xuality when their isn't a single gene for something as simple as height is beyond me.

      August 25, 2012 at 11:36 am |
  10. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

    Bob? Bob, are you there? Did you fall off the face of the Earth?

    When are you going to back up your claims with some sources? Some citations?

    Do you have any? No?

    Yeah, I never really thought you did.

    August 24, 2012 at 11:20 pm |
  11. Slander

    You frickin liar you say you fight for gay rights because they shouldn't be denied their rights well what about mine. I do love my sister I have been with her for a long time and we live together so why not A Hole. What do you care, answer me low life tell me why. You give me some lame reply, I really want to know. I read the thing you put up about rights I live in the US I am tired of this bs everyone is worried about gay rights well what about mine? Who are you to judge me you little piece of, this dam puter wont put down what I say. Why would gays be allowed to marry and not me hell there guy on guy at least Im with a girl.

    August 24, 2012 at 6:55 pm |
    • midwest rail

      Trolling should never be this boring.

      August 24, 2012 at 6:59 pm |
    • Slander

      Listen you jerk I don't have a computer at home and I am at work why don't I have the right to marry my sister she I want to she and I have gotten along good for awhile now and since the gays are going to marry why not me. You educated asses thinking you are only good enough.

      August 24, 2012 at 8:48 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Are you 15, Slander, or just stupid?

      August 24, 2012 at 9:35 pm |
    • TypicAtheists

      Calling somebody a troll and throw insults to somebody's intelligence. Atheists' typical scapegoat when ran-out of rebuttals. Clever, yet HOW TYPICAL!

      August 27, 2012 at 12:42 am |
    • myweightinwords

      While it is fairly obvious that Slander is most likely not sincere, and the angry rhetoric is combative....

      To be honest, the conventions against adult, consensual relations between close relations are purely societal. At one time it was not as vehemently taboo as it has become.

      Of course, many will hide behind the medical, in that inbreeding can and does contribute to birth defects that can be horrific, contaminates the gene pool, and in a closed system could lead to extinction, however, a single generation of incest, even when children are born from it, that is very rare.

      So the taboo is based solely in the culture.

      August 27, 2012 at 11:13 am |
  12. YeahRight

    "Thank you for your continuing contributions to this forum. I know that many of the contributors are now seriously considering moving toward the refuge of celibacy and away from the abyss of fornication and sin. "

    What a lie, this is about civil rights.

    Marriage was defined by the US Supreme Court as a civil right. Recognized federal civil rights law in the United States is grounded in the U.S. Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court. By this standard, marriage has long been established as a civil right.

    The operative constitutional text is section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment, which was ratified in 1868. The relevant passages read as follows:

    No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws

    A federal appeals court on May 31 st ruled that the Defense of Marriage Act is unconstitutional because it denies equal rights for legally married same-sex couples, making it likely that the Supreme Court will consider the politically divisive issue for the first time in its next term. This most likely will be decided in the courts and since most courts keep ruling in gays favor they should be able to over turn all the unconstitutional laws prejudice bigots have been trying to pass.

    Oh, and don't forget the N A A C P just joined in the fight too!

    August 24, 2012 at 10:58 am |
    • Slander

      I think I will marry my sister shes cute and we have a good time in bed and now there will be no law against it so great, thanks!!!

      August 24, 2012 at 12:38 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "I think I will marry my sister shes cute and we have a good time in bed and now there will be no law against it so great, thanks!!!"

      Wow, is that all you can come up with, so original...NOT. Well, duh incest is illegal being gay is not. Next time stop being so lazy and do some research. Duh!

      August 24, 2012 at 2:34 pm |
    • Slander

      You a hole it will be legal also and why not do it if gays can marry I can marry my sister. You are such a i f@@king moron to try to deny me my rights. I hope you drop.

      August 24, 2012 at 6:02 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      WEEEEEEEEEEE.
      Wow this slope is super slippery!

      August 24, 2012 at 6:07 pm |
    • Yo!Wrong

      @Yeah right...

      Apparently, 'Slander' has a point. If they're two consenting adults that want to marry. Then, why there such a law to deprive them such right? Don't they deserve the same civil rights and equal protection of laws?

      You terribly sound bigoted against incest.

      August 27, 2012 at 12:33 am |
    • John

      Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.

      Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.

      There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.

      Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.

      1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.

      Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?

      Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).

      That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all; nothing but prejudice born of ignorance; that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex.

      August 27, 2012 at 10:34 am |
    • YeahRight

      "Apparently, 'Slander' has a point. If they're two consenting adults that want to marry. Then, why there such a law to deprive them such right? Don't they deserve the same civil rights and equal protection of laws?

      You terribly sound bigoted against incest."

      More desperation in trying to justify your unfounded prejudice and hatred toward the gay community. LMAO! LOL!

      August 27, 2012 at 11:45 am |
  13. JS

    Christians are increasingly divided over the issue of the acceptance and inclusion of gay persons into the church. The debate itself is usually framed as essentially pitting the Bible, on one hand, against compassion and social justice on the other. Our Christian hearts, runs the (usually impassioned) argument, compel us to grant full moral and legal equality to gay and lesbian people; our Christian faith, comes the (usually impassioned) rebuttal, compels us to cleave, above all, to the word of God.

    Compassion for others is the fundamental cornerstone of Christian ethics; the Bible is the bedrock of the Christian faith. What Christian can possibly choose between the two?

    The answer is that no Christian is called upon to make that choice. The text of the Bible on one hand, and full equality for gay and lesbian people on the other, is a false dichotomy. God would not ask or expect Christians to ever choose between their heart and their faith.

    Reconciling the Bible with unqualified acceptance and equality for LGBT people does not necessitate discounting, recasting, deconstructing or reinterpreting the Bible. All it takes is reading those passages of the Bible wherein homosexuality is mentioned with the same care we would any other passage of the book.

    We can trust God; we can trust that God is loving.

    And we can trust that we can - and that we certainly should - take God, in this matter, as in all things, at his Word.

    If there is no clearly stated directive in the Bible to marginalize and ostracize gay people, then Christians continuing to do so is morally indefensible, and must cease.

    What cannot be denied is that Christians have caused a great deal of pain and suffering to gay persons, by:

    Banning their participation in the church, thus depriving them of the comforts and spiritual fruits of the church;

    Banning their participation in the sacrament of marriage, thus depriving them of the comforts and spiritual fruits of marriage;

    Damaging the bonds between gays and their straight family members, thus weakening the comforts and spiritual fruits of family life for both gays and their families; and

    Using their position within society as spokespersons for God to proclaim that all homosexual relations are disdained by God, thus knowingly contributing to the cruel persecution of a minority population.

    Christians do not deny that they have done these things. However, they contend that they have no choice but to do these things, based on what they say is a clear directive about homosexuals delivered to them by God through the Holy Bible. They say that the Bible defines all homosexual acts as sinful, instructs them to exclude from full participation in the church all non-repentant sinners (including gay people), and morally calls upon them to publicly (or at least resolutely) denounce homosexual acts.

    Without an explicit directive from God to exclude and condemn homosexuals, the Christian community's treatment of gay persons is in clear violation of what Jesus and the New Testament writers pointedly identified as the most important commandment from God: to love one's neighbor as one's self.

    The gay community has cried out for justice to Christians, who have a biblically mandated obligation to be just. Because the mistreatment of gay persons by Christians is so severe, the directive from God to marginalize and ostracize gay people must be clear and explicit in the Bible. If there is no such clearly stated directive, then the continued Christian mistreatment of gay and lesbian people is morally indefensible, and must cease.

    The Bible is not a contract, or a set of instructions, with each passage spelling out something clear and specific. It is not a rulebook for being Christian. It is instead a widely varying collection of poetry, history, proverbs, moral directives, parables, letters and wondrous visions. We would be foolish to fail to understand that not everything in the Bible is a commandment, and that Christians cannot take any small section of the Bible out of its own context, and still hope to gain a clear understanding of its meaning.

    We can be confident that Paul was not writing to, or about, gay people, because he simply could not have been, any more than he could have written about smart phones or iPads. We do not know what Paul might write or say today about gay people. All we know is that in the New Testament he wrote about promiscuous, predatory, non-consensual same-sex acts between heterosexuals.

    If we are to rely on the Bible, then we must take its text as it is. It does condemn homosexual (and heterosexual) sex that is excessive, exploitive and outside of marriage. It does not, however, address the state of homosexuality itself - much less the subject of homosexual acts between a married gay couple. Christians therefore have no Bible-based moral justification for themselves condemning such acts.

    Because there was no concept of gay marriage when the Bible was written, the Bible does not, and could not, address the sinfulness of homosexual acts done within the context of gay marriage.

    The Bible routinely, clearly and strongly classifies all sex acts outside of the bonds of marriage as sinful. But, because there was no concept of gay people when the Bible was written, the Bible does not, and could not, address the sinfulness of homosexual acts done within the context of marriage. Christians therefore have no biblical basis for themselves condemning such acts.

    In fact, by denying marriage equality to gay people, Christians are compelling gay couples to sin, because their intimacy must happen outside of marriage, and is therefore, by biblical definition, sinful.

    Being personally repelled by homosexual sex doesn't make homosexual sex a sin.

    Christians cite as additional evidence of the inherent sinfulness of homosexual acts their raw emotional response to such acts. It is understandable that many straight people find homosexual sex repugnant (just as many gay people find heterosexual sex repugnant). It is normal for any one of us to be viscerally repelled by the idea of sex between, or with, people for whom we personally have no sexual attraction. It may feel to a straight Christian that their instinctive negative reaction to homosexual sex arises out of the Bible. But, all of us necessarily view the Bible through the lens of our own experiences and prejudices, and we must be very careful to ensure that lens does not distort our vision or understanding of God's sacrosanct word.

    "The greatest of these is love."

    The overriding message of Jesus was love. Jesus modeled love; Jesus preached love; Jesus was love. Christians desiring to do and live the will of Jesus are morally obliged to always err on the side of love.

    August 24, 2012 at 10:41 am |
  14. YeahRight

    "h0m0 is a sin and not normal it happens just like sickness but sickness is not normal either."

    More lies from the prejudice bigot Bob. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

    Social science has shown that the concerns often raised about children of lesbian and gay parents—concerns that are generally grounded in prejudice against and stereotypes about gay people—are unfounded. Overall, the research indicates that the children of lesbian and gay parents do not differ from the children of heterosexual parents in their development, adjustment, or overall well-being.

    August 24, 2012 at 10:39 am |
  15. Bob

    Joh 3:11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.
    Joh 3:12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
    Joh 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
    Joh 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
    Joh 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
    Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
    Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
    Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    Joh 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
    Joh 3:20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
    Joh 3:21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
    h0m0 is a sin and not normal it happens just like sickness but sickness is not normal either.

    August 23, 2012 at 7:17 pm |
    • Douglas

      Bob,

      Good work plowing the field.

      From a Biblical perspective, you win, hands down. Earlier today before I departed for work,
      I pointed out the Biblical truths regarding the prohibitions against gay marriage in the BIble.
      Right on schedule, responses were returned from the apologists claiming that there is nothing
      in the BIble against gay marriage.

      I think you have shared the same scriptual passages on many occasions here, truthfully rebutiing the
      myth that the BIble supports gay marriage. From Genesis to Leviticus, to II Kings, to Matthew, to Romans, to Jude, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that GLBTQ coitus and marriage are not permitted as Christian practice.

      However, those trapped in a reprobate mindset refuse to see the light and are content to live in darkness and
      the shadows of fornication. We can't give up and leave our GLBTQ brothers and sisters at the mercy of
      Satan's lies and that is why I admire your persistence in staying the course and keeping the faith with the good
      news of the Gospels.
      Our GLBTQ youth ministry is making great progress and as school opens we know that many GLBTQ youth, weary of being pressured to sin and fornicate are looking for alternatives. Celibacy and commitment to Christ brings peace and
      and joy to this population. Many are transformed after hearing the word and committing themselves to Christ.

      Thank you for your continuing contributions to this forum. I know that many of the contributors are now seriously considering moving toward the refuge of celibacy and away from the abyss of fornication and sin. Bob, those who attack you with great vigor are now searching for a path to celibate living. It may mean, in some cases, leaving partners behind.

      If that is the price to save one's soul for eternity...so be it.

      Keep your hand to the plow and don't look back.

      Best,
      Douglas

      August 23, 2012 at 10:27 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Dougie, you must not be a farm boy. What Booby excels at doing isn't plowing the field but spreading manure on it. You should know. You do the same thing.

      August 23, 2012 at 10:29 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      No evidence of a soul to save, no evidence of your god, no reason to take the bible as an authority on anything, let alone psychology

      August 23, 2012 at 10:30 pm |
    • Douglas

      Tom, Tom,

      Have you considered celibacy to help you deal with the conflicts in your heart. A man like you could be liberated
      from the abyss of sin. Let's start a conversation about how to help you climb that mountain. I'm here to help.
      There is no shame in letting go of sin. We have all fallen short of the mark.
      I extend the hand of freindship to you.

      Best,
      Douglas

      August 23, 2012 at 10:33 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You fvckinig idiot. I'm a woman, I'm straight, and I've been married to the same man for almost 32 years.

      August 23, 2012 at 10:34 pm |
    • therealpeace2all

      @Douglas

      " Our GLBTQ youth ministry "

      Holy sh!t !!!!! you have 'got' to be kidding ? 8O

      Peace...

      August 23, 2012 at 10:42 pm |
    • Douglas

      Ohh...pardon me. You are in a marriage that is consistent with Christian principles. Congratulations on the blessing
      of 32 years of bliss. You are doing the right thing. I have no quarrel with you Ms. Tom.
      Yours in Christ,
      Dougals

      August 23, 2012 at 10:42 pm |
    • Douglas

      Ohh...pardon me. You are in a marriage that is consistent with Christian principles. Congratulations on the blessing
      of 32 years of bliss. You are doing the right thing. I have no quarrel with you Ms. Tom.
      Yours in Christ,
      Douglas

      August 23, 2012 at 10:42 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Wow Douglas, you may be the most condescending passive agressive douche I've seen here.

      August 23, 2012 at 10:44 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Get bent, you charlatan.

      August 23, 2012 at 10:44 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      @HG: no kidding. What a moron this guy is!

      August 23, 2012 at 10:48 pm |
    • ImLook'nUp

      @TTtPS

      As a God fearing soul and living out in the country, I can assure you that manure spreading and plowing the fields go hand in hand in producing a productive soil.

      August 24, 2012 at 9:32 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Lookin' stupid, you're not the only person who's ever lived out in the country. Get over yourself.

      August 24, 2012 at 9:33 am |
    • myweightinwords

      Of course, the problem with quoting a book is that first the authority of that book must be agreed upon.

      Simply throwing scripture at people who do not believe in the divine inspiration of said scripture proves nothing to anyone.

      I do think, however, that we are getting closer to your actual feelings on the subject, the deeply held beliefs about homosexuality that you try to defend with all of your quotes and attempts to disparage scientific study.

      Why do you continue to post about psychiatric determination? Why not just state that you believe that being gay is a sin? It is a much more honest statement.

      August 24, 2012 at 10:29 am |
    • James

      "I think you have shared the same scriptual passages on many occasions here, truthfully rebutiing the
      myth that the BIble supports gay marriage. From Genesis to Leviticus, to II Kings, to Matthew, to Romans, to Jude, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that GLBTQ coitus and marriage are not permitted as Christian practice."

      The scriptures actually say nothing about homosexuality as a psychosexual orientation. Our understandings of sexual orientation are distinctly modern ones that were not present in the minds of Scripture writers. A few passages of Scripture (seven at the most) object to certain types of same-sex expressions or acts. The particular acts in question, however, are sexual expressions which are exploitative, oppressive, commercialized, or offensive to ancient purity rituals. There is no Scriptural guidance for same-sex relationships which are loving and mutually respecting. Guidelines for these relationships should come from the same general Scriptural norms that apply to heterosexual relationships.

      August 24, 2012 at 10:51 am |
  16. Cindi

    LIKE YOU, I TAKE THE BIBLE SERIOUSLY! Many good people build their case against homosexuality almost entirely on the Bible. These folks value Scripture, and are serious about seeking its guidance in their lives. Unfortunately, many of them have never really studied what the Bible does and doesn’t say about homosexuality.

    We gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender Christians take the Bible seriously, too. Personally, I’ve spent more than 50 years reading, studying, memorizing, preaching, and teaching from the sacred texts. I earned my master’s and doctoral degrees at a conservative biblical seminary to better equip myself to “rightly divide the word of truth.” I learned Hebrew and Greek to gain a better understanding of the original words of the biblical texts. I studied the lives and times of the biblical authors to help me know what they were saying in their day so I could better apply it to my own.

    We must be open to new truth from Scripture.

    Even heroes of the Christian faith have changed their minds about the meaning of various biblical texts.

    It took a blinding light and a voice from heaven to help the apostle Paul change his mind about certain Hebrew texts. A sheet lowered from the sky filled with all kinds of animals helped the apostle Peter gain new insights into Jewish law.

    Jerry Falwell believed the Bible supported segregation in the church until a black shoeshine man asked him, “When will someone like me be allowed to become a member of your congregation?” Through those simple words, the Holy Spirit spoke new truth about the ancient biblical texts to the Rev. Falwell, and in obedience he ended segregation at Thomas Road Baptist Church.

    Even when we believe the Scriptures are “infallible” or “without error,” it’s terribly dangerous to think that our understanding of every biblical text is also without error. We are human. We are fallible. And we can misunderstand and misinterpret these ancient words — with tragic results.

    What if someone asked you, “Is there a chance you could be wrong about the way you’ve interpreted the biblical texts sometimes used to condemn homosexual orientation?” How would you respond? What does it say about you if you answer, “No, I could NOT be wrong”? I am asking you to re-examine these texts — carefully and prayerfully. Lives hang in the balance.

    If heroes of the Christian faith could change their minds about the meaning of certain biblical texts, shouldn’t we be prepared to reconsider our own interpretations of these ancient words when the Holy Spirit opens our minds and hearts to new truth? That’s why we study the Bible prayerfully, seeking the Spirit of Truth, God’s loving Spirit, to help us understand and apply these words to our lives.

    On the night he was betrayed, Jesus told his disciples he was going away from them for a while, but that the Father would send them a “Comforter,” an “Advocate,” the “Holy Spirit” who would “teach them all things.”

    I believe with all my heart that the Holy Spirit is still teaching us. When we reconsider the texts that are used by some people to condemn God’s gay children, we must fervently seek the Holy Spirit’s guidance, or we risk being misled by our own prejudices.

    The Bible is a book about God – not a book about human sexuality.

    The Bible is the story of God’s love for the world and the people of the world. It tells the history of God’s love at work rescuing, renewing, and empowering humankind. It was never intended to be a book about human sexuality. Certainly, you will agree.

    In fact, the Bible accepts sexual practices that we condemn and condemns sexual practices that we accept. Lots of them! Here are a few examples.

    DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
    If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.

    DEUTERONOMY 22:22
    If a married person has sex with someone else’s husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.

    MARK 10:1-12
    Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.

    LEVITICUS 18:19
    The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman’s period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.

    MARK 12:18-27
    If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.

    DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
    If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy’s genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.

    I’m certain you don’t agree with these teachings from the Bible about sex. And you shouldn’t. The list goes on: The Bible says clearly that sex with a prostitute is acceptable for the husband but not for the wife. Polygamy (more than one wife) is acceptable, as is a king’s having many concubines. (Solomon, the wisest king of all, had 1,000 concubines.) Slavery and sex with slaves, marriage of girls aged 11-13, and treatment of women as property are all accepted practices in the Scriptures. On the other hand, there are strict prohibitions against interracial marriage, birth control, discussing or even naming a sexual organ, and seeing one’s parents nude.

    Over the centuries the Holy Spirit has taught us that certain Bible verses should not be understood as God’s law for all time periods. Some verses are specific to the culture and time they were written, and are no longer viewed as appropriate, wise, or just.

    Often, the Holy Spirit uses science to teach us why those ancient words no longer apply to our modern times. During the last three decades, for example, organizations representing 1.5 million U.S. health professionals (doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, and educators) have stated definitively that homosexual orientation is as natural as heterosexual orientation, that sexual orientation is determined by a combination of yet unknown pre- and post-natal influences, and that it is dangerous and inappropriate to tell a homosexual that he or she could or should attempt to change his or her sexual orientation.

    While there are some people now living in heterosexual marriages who once perceived themselves to be gay, there are millions of gay and lesbian persons who have accepted their sexual orientation as a gift from God and live productive and deeply spiritual lives . The evidence from science and from the personal experience of gay and lesbian Christians demands that we at least consider whether the passages cited to condemn homosexual behavior should be reconsidered, just as other Bible verses that speak of certain sexual practices are no longer understood as God’s law for us in this day.

    August 23, 2012 at 10:54 am |
    • Eric

      No one has all the answers for now we know in part. However yes hom ose xuality is a sin. It is not any worse then the sins I have committed and continue to comit. We all are plagued by sin in one form or another.

      Some (many) of the most exceptional christians had little to no education from the apostles to wigglesworth and coutless others. The pharisees were experts in the law, highly educated and would tout there knowlage. They missed Jesus.

      As for modern christian intereptation ...apologetics.. Yes Some of what they come up with is pretty out there. I heard a radio program where the speaker Steve someone said dinosaurs were on the ark with Noah... Really he touted about scientific evidence not supporting things then follows it up with a statement like that. So yes I can see the confusion things like this cause.

      God created the universe and all the processes, how I dont know we can observe what is here though. Along with all of creation he made man and then woman. Woman was designed as mans helpmeet. Man and man2 were not created, infact just about all creatures are designed in male and female.

      I pray the spirit gives you revolation.

      August 23, 2012 at 11:14 am |
    • YeahRight

      "Along with all of creation he made man and then woman. Woman was designed as mans helpmeet. Man and man2 were not created, infact just about all creatures are designed in male and female.

      I pray the spirit gives you revolation."

      Actually you're wrong gay relationships have been documented in over 1500 other species proving it is totally natural.

      August 23, 2012 at 1:20 pm |
    • Bob

      Mar_3:29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"
      Pro 23:26 Give me your heart, my son, And let your eyes delight in my ways.
      Pro 23:27 For a harlot is a deep pit And an adulterous woman is a narrow well.
      Pro 23:28 Surely she lurks as a robber, And increases the faithless among men.
      This is such a bunch of garbage and the one who wrote this is not heeding the warning about the Holy Spirit. There is no understanding of the Bible or Gods laws or who or why God commanded the things in the Bible.

      August 23, 2012 at 8:36 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "This is such a bunch of garbage and the one who wrote this is not heeding the warning about the Holy Spirit. There is no understanding of the Bible or Gods laws or who or why God commanded the things in the Bible."

      Don't you just love the fact this idiot can't even follow the bible by making up so many lies and being so judgmental. LMAO!

      August 24, 2012 at 10:36 am |
  17. Don

    The most beautiful word in the Gospel of Jesus Christ is "whosoever." All of God's promises are intended for every human being. This includes gay men and lesbians. How tragic it is that the Christian Church has excluded and persecuted people who are homosexual! We are all created with powerful needs for personal relationships. Our quality of life depends upon the love we share with others; whether family or friends, partners or peers. Yet, lesbians and gay men facing hostile attitudes in society often are denied access to healthy relationships. Jesus Christ calls us to find ultimate meaning in life through a personal relationship with our Creator. This important spiritual union can bring healing and strength to all of our human relationships

    Biblical Interpretation and Theology also change from time to time. Approximately 150 years ago in the United States, some Christian teaching held that there was a two-fold moral order: black and white. Whites were thought to be superior to blacks, therefore blacks were to be subservient and slavery was an institution ordained by God. Clergy who supported such an abhorrent idea claimed the authority of the Bible. The conflict over slavery led to divisions which gave birth to some major Christian denominations. These same denominations, of course, do not support slavery today. Did the Bible change? No, their interpretation of the Bible did!

    Genesis 19:1-25

    Some "televangelists" carelessly proclaim that God destroyed the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of "homosexuality." Although some theologians have equated the sin of Sodom with homosexuality, a careful look at Scripture corrects such ignorance. Announcing judgment on these cities in Genesis 18, God sends two angels to Sodom, where Abraham's nephew, Lot, persuades them to stay in his home. Genesis 19 records that "all the people from every quarter" surround Lot's house demanding the release of his visitors so "we might know them." The Hebrew word for "know" in this case, yadha, usually means "have thorough knowledge of." It could also express intent to examine the visitors' credentials, or on rare occasions the term implies sexual intercourse. If the latter was the author's intended meaning, it would have been a clear case of attempted gang rape. Several observations are important.

    First, the judgment on these cities for their wickedness had been announced prior to the alleged homosexual incident. Second, all of Sodom's people participated in the assault on Lot's house; in no culture has more than a small minority of the population been homosexual. Third, Lot's offer to release his daughters suggests he knew his neighbors to have heterosexual interests. Fourth, if the issue was sexual, why did God spare Lot, who immediately commits incest with his daughters? Most importantly, why do all the other passages of Scripture referring to this account fail to raise the issue of homosexuality?

    Romans 1:24-27

    Most New Testament books, including the four Gospels, are silent on same-sex acts, and Paul is the only author who makes any reference to the subject. The most negative statement by Paul regarding same-sex acts occurs in Romans 1:24-27 where, in the context of a larger argument on the need of all people for the gospel of Jesus Christ, certain homosexual behavior is given as an example of the "uncleanness" of idolatrous Gentiles.

    This raises the question: Does this passage refer to all homosexual acts, or to certain homosexual behavior known to Paul's readers? The book of Romans was written to Jewish and Gentile Christians in Rome, who would have been familiar with the infamous sexual excesses of their contemporaries, especially Roman emperors. They would also have been aware of tensions in the early Church regarding Gentiles and observance of the Jewish laws, as noted in Acts 15 and Paul's letter to the Galatians. Jewish laws in Leviticus mentioned male same-sex acts in the context of idolatry.

    The homosexual practices cited in Romans 1:24-27 were believed to result from idolatry and are associated with some very serious offenses as noted in Romans 1. Taken in this larger context, it should be obvious that such acts are significantly different from loving, responsible lesbian and gay relationships seen today.

    What is "Natural"?

    Significant to Paul's discussion is the fact that these "unclean" Gentiles exchanged that which was "natural" for them, physin, in the Greek text, for something "unnatural," para physin. In Romans 11:24, God acts in an "unnatural" way, para physin, to accept the Gentiles. "Unnatural" in these passages does not refer to violation of so-called laws of nature, but rather implies action contradicting one's own nature. In view of this, we should observe that it is "unnatural," para physin, for a person today with a lesbian or gay sexual orientation to attempt living a heterosexual lifestyle.

    I Corinthians 6:9

    Any consideration of New Testament statements on same-sex acts must carefully view the social context of the Greco-Roman culture in which Paul ministered. Prostitution and pederasty (sexual relationships of adult men with boys) were the most commonly known male same-sex acts. In I Corinthians 6:9, Paul condemns those who are "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind," as translated in the King James version. Unfortunately, some new translations are worse, rendering these words "homosexuals." Recent scholarship unmasks the homophobia behind such mistranslations.

    The first word – malakos, in the Greek text-which has been translated "effeminate" or "soft," most likely refers to someone who lacks discipline or moral control. The word is used elsewhere in the New Testament but never with reference to sexuality.

    The second word, Arsenokoitai, occurs once each in I Corinthians and I Timothy (1:10), but nowhere else in other literature of the period. It is derived from two Greek words, one meaning, "males" and the other "beds", a euphemism for sexual intercourse. Other Greek words were commonly used to describe homosexual behavior but do not appear here. The larger context of I Corinthians 6 shows Paul extremely concerned with prostitution, so it is very possible he was referring to male prostitutes. But many experts now attempting to translate these words have reached a simple conclusion: their precise meaning is uncertain. Scripture Study Conclusion…No Law Against Love

    The rarity with which Paul discusses any form of same-sex behavior and the ambiguity in references attributed to him make it extremely unsound to conclude any sure position in the New Testament on homosexuality, especially in the context of loving, responsible relationships. Since any arguments must be made from silence, it is much more reliable to turn to great principles of the Gospel taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. Do not judge others, lest you be judged. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is love . . . against such there is no law. One thing is abundantly clear, as Paul stated in Galatians 5:14: "....the whole Law is fulfilled in one statement, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself".

    August 23, 2012 at 10:40 am |
    • Bob

      Don and john are just H0m0 and in delustion, along with yeah the poster of these

      August 23, 2012 at 8:38 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Don and john are just H0m0 and in delustion, along with yeah the poster of these"

      More lies from Bob proving he can't even understand one of the basic ten commandments. Duh!

      August 24, 2012 at 10:37 am |
  18. John

    Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.

    Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.

    There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.

    Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.

    Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?

    Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).

    That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex!

    August 23, 2012 at 10:39 am |
  19. save the world and slap some sense into a christard today!

    more bs from politicians, lobbyists and charlatans from hundreds of years ago. start using your minds people. religion is nonsense.

    August 23, 2012 at 9:47 am |
  20. Douglas

    The Bible is unambiguous about the role and status of GLBTQ folk in terms of marriage and coitus.

    GLBTQ marriage and coitus are strictly prohibited.

    There are repeated attempts here at "revisionist" interpretations of scripture...where you are led to believe that the Bible says nothing about the prohibition of GLBTQ relationships and the prospects for marriage.

    Gay marriage is not approved in the Bible. In Matthew 19, Jesus defines marriage as the solemn union of one man and one woman. Jesus makes it clear that some people will remain celibate for the kingdom of heaven. This is the role for GLBTQ folk. If GLBTQ folk have no desire to marry in accordance with Jesus' one man-one woman directive, then the only alternative is celibacy, an honorable and blessed alternative.

    Bless celibate GLBTQ brothers and sisters who are in step with Jesus' directions to them.

    I support and encourage GLBTQ celibacy. Please consider forming a support group at your place of worship for GLBTQ celibates. They are under tremendous pressure to backslide into sinful conduct and act out the behaviors of a reprobate mind. With prayer, they will prevail as celibates, setting an example for GLBTQ and straight folk alike.

    Thanks for your continuing support of our efforts to educate believers on the power of celibacy for GLBTQ Christians.

    Sincerely yours in Christ,
    Douglas

    August 23, 2012 at 7:36 am |
    • Bob

      We join a mighty chorus in praise to our Lord and God, where no sin can enter and no flesh may dwell for God is spirit and we worship Him in spirit and in truth.

      August 23, 2012 at 9:40 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      But you have no studies you can cite that show any evidence of your claims about gays, can you, Bob?

      Thanks for verifying that you've been reading right along and haven't missed my posts.

      August 23, 2012 at 9:42 am |
    • save the world and slap some sense into a christard today!

      more bs from politicians, lobbyists and charlatans from hundreds of years ago. start using your minds people. religion is nonsense.

      August 23, 2012 at 9:47 am |
    • James

      "GLBTQ marriage and coitus are strictly prohibited.

      There are repeated attempts here at "revisionist" interpretations of scripture...where you are led to believe that the Bible says nothing about the prohibition of GLBTQ relationships and the prospects for marriage."

      The scriptures actually say nothing about homosexuality as a psychosexual orientation. Our understandings of sexual orientation are distinctly modern ones that were not present in the minds of Scripture writers. A few passages of Scripture (seven at the most) object to certain types of same-sex expressions or acts. The particular acts in question, however, are sexual expressions which are exploitative, oppressive, commercialized, or offensive to ancient purity rituals. There is no Scriptural guidance for same-sex relationships which are loving and mutually respecting. Guidelines for these relationships should come from the same general Scriptural norms that apply to heterosexual relationships.

      August 23, 2012 at 10:38 am |
    • Bob

      Atheists are going to hell and want to take anyone they can with them so if you want to go follow the posts here from them you will be right on track.

      August 23, 2012 at 8:48 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      And you, Boob, are a liar and a disgrace.

      August 23, 2012 at 10:31 pm |
    • Lisa

      Why are you really trying to scare people away from reading our posts, Bob? Afraid more people will realize that hell isn't actually real?

      August 27, 2012 at 12:19 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke and Eric Marrapodi with daily contributions from CNN's worldwide newsgathering team.