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My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage
The author backs same-sex marriage because of his faith, not in spite of it.
May 19th, 2012
02:00 AM ET

My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage

Editor's Note: Mark Osler is a Professor of Law at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

By Mark Osler, Special to CNN

I am a Christian, and I am in favor of gay marriage. The reason I am for gay marriage is because of my faith.

What I see in the Bible’s accounts of Jesus and his followers is an insistence that we don’t have the moral authority to deny others the blessing of holy institutions like baptism, communion, and marriage. God, through the Holy Spirit, infuses those moments with life, and it is not ours to either give or deny to others.

A clear instruction on this comes from Simon Peter, the “rock” on whom the church is built. Peter is a captivating figure in the Christian story. Jesus plucks him out of a fishing boat to become a disciple, and time and again he represents us all in learning at the feet of Christ.

During their time together, Peter is often naïve and clueless – he is a follower, constantly learning.

After Jesus is crucified, though, a different Peter emerges, one who is forceful and bold. This is the Peter we see in the Acts of the Apostles, during a fevered debate over whether or not Gentiles should be baptized. Peter was harshly criticized for even eating a meal with those who were uncircumcised; that is, those who did not follow the commands of the Old Testament.

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

Peter, though, is strong in confronting those who would deny the sacrament of baptism to the Gentiles, and argues for an acceptance of believers who do not follow the circumcision rules of Leviticus (which is also where we find a condemnation of homosexuality).

His challenge is stark and stunning: Before ordering that the Gentiles be baptized Peter asks “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

None of us, Peter says, has the moral authority to deny baptism to those who seek it, even if they do not follow the ancient laws. It is the flooding love of the Holy Spirit, which fell over that entire crowd, sinners and saints alike, that directs otherwise.

My Take: Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality

It is not our place, it seems, to sort out who should be denied a bond with God and the Holy Spirit of the kind that we find through baptism, communion, and marriage. The water will flow where it will.

Intriguingly, this rule will apply whether we see homosexuality as a sin or not. The water is for all of us. We see the same thing at the Last Supper, as Jesus gives the bread and wine to all who are there—even to Peter, who Jesus said would deny him, and to Judas, who would betray him.

The question before us now is not whether homosexuality is a sin, but whether being gay should be a bar to baptism or communion or marriage.

Your Take: Rethinking the Bible on homosexuality

The answer is in the Bible. Peter and Jesus offer a strikingly inclusive form of love and engagement. They hold out the symbols of Gods’ love to all. How arrogant that we think it is ours to parse out stingily!

I worship at St. Stephens, an Episcopal church in Edina, Minnesota. There is a river that flows around the back and side of that church with a delightful name: Minnehaha Creek. That is where we do baptisms.

The Rector stands in the creek in his robes, the cool water coursing by his feet, and takes an infant into his arms and baptizes her with that same cool water. The congregation sits on the grassy bank and watches, a gentle army.

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At the bottom of the creek, in exactly that spot, is a floor of smooth pebbles. The water rushing by has rubbed off the rough edges, bit by bit, day by day. The pebbles have been transformed by that water into something new.

I suppose that, as Peter put it, someone could try to withhold the waters of baptism there. They could try to stop the river, to keep the water from some of the stones, like a child in the gutter building a barrier against the stream.

It won’t last, though. I would say this to those who would withhold the water of baptism, the joy of worship, or the bonds of marriage: You are less strong than the water, which will flow around you, find its path, and gently erode each wall you try to erect.

The redeeming power of that creek, and of the Holy Spirit, is relentless, making us all into something better and new.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Mark Osler.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Christianity • Episcopal • Gay marriage • My Take • Opinion

soundoff (15,115 Responses)
  1. Lorraine

    Smithsonian, this is where you are wrong, the book of remembrance, the so called OT, is not a religion, YHWH is not of religion, or Daniel's vision would not have prophesied just what is going on in this time of false religions, and false governments, and those like yourself are suppose to mislead the people this is what this whole spiritual war, of His enemies in Pslams 83, and in Exodus 17:14-17, from generation, to generation, it is about the lies of the leaders against YHWH, who has been told, and warned by YHWH, that your knowledge has deceived you, in Isaiah 47, O, daughter of Babylon. Praise YHWH.

    Also, if one would read Genesis-Malachi then one would know these question asked by Smithsonian, how we were created, and why evil came about, and to help, YHWH made us for His own sake unconditionally; He gave us a choice to decide with our own hearts what, or who we want to be in this world, as well as to who we'll be to HIM, whether being righteous, obedient children, or not the choice is ours we're responsible for our own righteousness in Ezekiel 14:14-21. YHWH Bless.

    September 24, 2012 at 12:14 pm |
    • Bob

      Since you posted it over again. Loraine, get a clue. the Smithsonian is the world's largest museum and research complex. The one that is wrong is you.

      September 24, 2012 at 1:09 pm |
  2. Lorraine

    Smithsonian, this is where you are wrong, the book of remembrance, the so called OT, is not a religion, YHWH is not of religion, or Daniel's vision would not have prophesied just what is going on in this time of false religions, and false governments, and those like yourself are suppose to mislead people this is what this whole spiritual war, is about the lies of the leaders against YHWH, who has been told by YHWH, that your knowledge has deceived you, in Isaiah 47, O, daughter of Babylon. Praise YHWH.

    September 24, 2012 at 12:01 pm |
    • Bob

      Loraine, get a clue. the Smithsonian is the world's largest museum and research complex. The one that is wrong is you.

      September 24, 2012 at 12:05 pm |
    • Lorraine

      Bob, you of all people I thought would understand what a 'spiritual war' meant, it is the enemies of YHWH against Him in Psalms 83, and in Exodus 17: 14-17, from generations, to generations, their knowledge is deceiving them, where do they think they got it from, but their pride, and ego they have put before YHWH, and well, you know this is to be addressed, for His righteousness is near in Isaiah 51:5, and the dark day will come as in the book of Joel instructs many, a future prophecy. Praise YHWH the King.

      September 24, 2012 at 12:21 pm |
    • Lorraine

      SMITHSONIAN, PS.. In Genesis 11, you will learn why there are different languages, and that in Zephaniah 3:9, YHWH will restore a pure language again. Read Genesis-Malachi, and pray, do the law of righteousness , and YHWH will illuminate you to see truth. YHWH bless.

      September 24, 2012 at 12:31 pm |
    • Bob

      Lorraine the one with an ego problem is you which is why you continue to post your garbage over and over again. Get a clue, you're wrong.

      September 24, 2012 at 1:08 pm |
  3. Erik

    "It maybe a civil right, but it is not a righteousness right in the site of the Creator"

    That's why people are born gay. Being gay is not a choice science, in fact, is actually not in dispute on this matter.

    All major medical professional organizations concur that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed, from gay to straight or otherwise. The American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and European Psychological, Psychiatric, and Medical Associations all agree with this, as does the World Health Organization and the medical organizations of Japan, China, and most recently, Thailand. Furthermore, attempts to change one's sexual orientation can be psychologically damaging, and cause great inner turmoil and depression, especially for Christian gays and lesbians.

    Reparative therapy, also called conversion therapy or reorientation therapy, "counsels" LGBT persons to pray fervently and study Bible verses, often utilizing 12-step techniques that are used to treat sexual addictions or trauma. Such Christian councilors are pathologizing homosexuality, which is not a pathology but is a sexual orientation. Psychologically, that's very dangerous territory to tread on. All of the above-mentioned medical professional organizations, in addition to the American and European Counseling Associations, stand strongly opposed to any form of reparative therapy.

    In my home country, Norway, reparative therapy is officially considered to be ethical malpractice. But there are many countries that do not regulate the practice, and many others that remain largely silent and even passively supportive of it (such as the Philippines). Groups that operate such "therapy" in the Philippines are the Evangelical Bagong Pag-asa, and the Catholic Courage Philippines.

    The scientific evidence of the innateness of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism is overwhelming, and more peer-reviewed studies which bolster this fact are being added all the time. Science has long regarded sexual orientation – and that's all sexual orientations, including heterosexuality – as a phenotype. Simply put, a phenotype is an observable set of properties that varies among individuals and is deeply rooted in biology. For the scientific community, the role of genetics in sexuality is about as "disputable" as the role of evolution in biology.

    On the second point, that there is no conclusion that there is a "gay gene," they are right. No so-called gay gene has been found, and it's highly unlikely that one ever will. This is where conservative Christians and Muslims quickly say "See, I told you so! There's no gay gene, so being gay is a choice!"

    Take this interesting paragraph I found on an Evangelical website: "The attempt to prove that homosexuality is determined biologically has been dealt a knockout punch. An American Psychological Association publication includes an admission that there's no homosexual "gene" – meaning it's not likely that homosexuals are 'born that way.'"

    But that's not at all what it means, and it seems Evangelicals are plucking out stand-alone phrases from scientific reports and removing them from their context. This is known in academia as the fallacy of suppressed evidence. Interestingly, this is also what they have a habit of doing with verses from the Bible.

    This idea of sexuality being a choice is such a bizarre notion to me as a man of science. Many of these reparative "therapists" are basing this concept on a random Bible verse or two. When you hold those up against the mountain of scientific research that has been conducted, peer-reviewed, and then peer-reviewed again, it absolutely holds no water. A person's sexuality – whether heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual – is a very deep biological piece of who that person is as an individual.

    The fact that a so-called "gay gene" has not been discovered does not mean that homosexuality is not genetic in its causation. This is understandably something that can seem a bit strange to those who have not been educated in fields of science and advanced biology, and it is also why people who are not scientists ought not try to explain the processes in simple black-and-white terms. There is no gay gene, but there is also no "height gene" or "skin tone gene" or "left-handed gene." These, like sexuality, have a heritable aspect, but no one dominant gene is responsible for them.

    Many genes, working in sync, contribute to the phenotype and therefore do have a role in sexual orientation. In many animal model systems, for example, the precise genes involved in sexual partner selection have been identified, and their neuro-biochemical pathways have been worked out in great detail. A great number of these mechanisms have been preserved evolutionarily in humans, just as they are for every other behavioral trait we know (including heterosexuality).

    Furthermore, there are many biologic traits which are not specifically genetic but are biologic nonetheless. These traits are rooted in hormonal influences, contributed especially during the early stages of fetal development. This too is indisputable and based on extensive peer-reviewed research the world over. Such prenatal hormonal influences are not genetic per se, but are inborn, natural, and biologic nevertheless.

    Having said that, in the realm of legal rights, partnership rights, and anti-discrimination protections, the gay gene vs. choice debate is actually quite irrelevant. Whether or not something is a choice is not a suitable criterion for whether someone should have equal rights and protections. Religion is indisputably a choice, but that fact is a not a valid argument for discriminating against a particular religion.

    September 24, 2012 at 11:57 am |
  4. Lorraine

    It maybe a civil right, but it is not a righteousness right in the site of the Creator YHWH, whether the naacp, has a play in it, or not, that doesn't make it moral, or make it righteous. No matter how you dress it up, its not moral, nor the way of righteousness of the perpetual law of the 10 commandments. YHWH changes not in Malachi 3:6, none of His law has changed in His site as taught in Isaiah 24. It is now just going to be financially legal whether it is morally, or not. As taught in Malachi 3:13-15, calling wrong, right, and rewarding, and rejoicing in it, prophecy fulfilled. YHWH Bless.

    September 24, 2012 at 11:41 am |
  5. 2Cents

    The NAACP has passed a resolution endorsing same-sex marriage as a civil right; putting it stamp on an issue that has divided the black community.

    The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People's board voted at a leadership retreat in Miami on Saturday to back a resolution supporting marriage equality; calling the position consistent with the equal protection provision of the US constitution.

    "The mission of the NAACP has always been to ensure political; social and economic equality of all people," board chairwoman Roslyn M Brock said in a statement. "We have and will oppose efforts to codify discrimination into law."

    Same-sex marriage is legal in six states and the District of Columbia, but 31 states have passed amendments to ban it.

    The NAACP vote came about two weeks after President Barack Obama announced his support for gay marriage, setting off a flurry of political activity in a number of states. Obama's announcement followed vice-president Joe Biden's declaration in a television interview that he was "absolutely comfortable" with gay couples marrying.

    "Civil marriage is a civil right and a matter of civil law. The NAACP's support for marriage equality is deeply rooted in the fourteenth amendment of the United States constitution and equal protection of all people" said NAACP president Benjamin Todd Jealous, a strong backer of gay rights.

    Gay marriage has divided the black community, with many religious leaders opposing it. In California, exit polls showed about 70% of black people opposed same-sex marriage in 2008. In Maryland, black religious leaders helped derail a gay marriage bill last year. But state lawmakers passed a gay marriage bill this year.

    Pew Research Center polls have found that African Americans have become more supportive of same-sex marriage in recent years, but remain less supportive than other groups. A poll conducted in April showed 39% of African-Americans favor gay marriage, compared with 47% of white people. The poll showed 49% of black people and 43% of white people are opposed.

    The Human Rights Campaign, a leading gay rights advocacy group, applauded the NAACP's step.

    "We could not be more pleased with the NAACP's history-making vote – which is yet another example of the traction marriage equality continues to gain in every community," HRC president Joe Solmonese said in a statement.

    September 24, 2012 at 11:05 am |
  6. Lorraine

    JWT, yes, now where did people come from? What's their origination? don't give me the theories from your societies lying books, for they truly don't have an answer do they? That is because the answer is beyond their knowledge, and what makes this book of remembrance, the book that is most scrutinized, and wondered about to most scholars, and is in over 2500 languages, all over the world.

    This is why the zionist jews used this book to reach their dominion, from 1897 of the Herzel Movement, Rothschild funded,next in 1904 gain allegiance with the monarch, to establish the Federal Reserve in 1913, next instigated both World Wars I, (1914)and then gained Israel in 1942, next instigated World Wars II,(1939-1945) then to the Bretton wood Agreement, 1945, to the fortune 500, ruling this world, now they were the smart ones.

    As YHWH made them to be, punishment for us all leaving Him for idols, religions, and wrong doing against righteousness, prophesied that their descendants would reach dominion in Genesis 27, the 'sword' prophesy fulfilled. While the europeans thought, and blindly still think they were in charge they were being used, they thought the world was flat, but the edomite jew knew better, he knew this book, as he knew to conquer this world since the days of old, and of today, and why it is now called being illuminated.
    But many of you will stay in the blind, in denial, and that's just what the ones in dominion need you to do, its helped them thus far, they have plenty more to do with the dummies, massive control, we haven't seen nothing yet. The 'sword' is, and has been upon this earth in Jeremiah 25, YHWH Bless, you will call Him, for He is all we have now, many will see.

    September 24, 2012 at 10:36 am |
    • JWT

      My books don't lie any more than your books.

      September 24, 2012 at 1:03 pm |
  7. Lorraine

    talludah13, I will tell you like I told some other smart ** * like yourself, if you would research it this book is the most scrutinized book that there is, and the best written, this is why it is in over 2500 languages, know it all. Scholars, and experts are dumb founded of it. And there is nothing old about it, people are doing just what they did then, the same wrongs, never doing what is righteous, but only what's convenient for them of their selfishness.

    This book is juxtaposed, it tells everything from the beginning to the end, and now the present, in comparison to remember what, and how we should be living, or what mistake we should not repeat. This is why it's true name is called 'the book of remembrance' look it up, the truth. You just like many are mislead to keep them in darkness from illumination, the knowledge of the light. The zionist jews(demagogues), learned it, and this is why they are the 500 fortune, and in dominion now, beguiling the rest, prophesied in Genesis 27, that their descendants would reach this status. note: not all jews are complicit to this truth. PRAISE YHWH, and YHWH Bless.

    September 23, 2012 at 1:00 pm |
    • Smithsonian

      "Scholars, and experts are dumb founded of it."

      The stories found in the Book of Genesis, Chapter 1-12, such as the flood story, the record is quite different: the time period under consideration is much more ancient. The factual bases of the stories are hidden from our view archaeologically. The stories remain a part of folk traditions and were included in the Bible to illustrate and explain theological ideas such as: Where did humans come from? If humans were created by God (who is perfect and good), how did evil among them come to be? If we are all related as children of God, why do we speak different languages? It must be remembered that the Bible is primarily a book of religion, a guide to faith. it was not a book of history, poetry, economics, or science. It contains all sorts of literary genre, which are used to teach about the relationship between God and mankind. Even biblical history is edited history: events were chosen to illustrate the central theme of the Bible. The Biblical writers did not pretend they were giving a complete history; instead they constantly refer us to other sources for full historical details, sources such as "The Annals of the Kings of Judah" (or Israel).

      It is therefore not possible to try to "prove" the Bible by means of checking its historical or scientific accuracy. The only "proof" to which it can be subjected is this: Does it correctly portray the God-human relationship? In the best analysis, the Bible is a religious book, not an historical document.

      September 24, 2012 at 11:11 am |
  8. Atheism is Great for Kids and Grown-Ups Too!

    It's really best for all people including children to have an agnostic approach to god, and an atheistic approach to all religion. It keeps things simple for kids, and lets them be all that they can be. They just need to be taught that some things, like all religion, were just made up by salesmen and politicians from long ago. (Yes, charlatan folklore and spam started long before the Bible; what would make you think they hadn't??) And they need to be taught that other things, like God, we really don't know a damn thing about.

    Atheists have strong minds and don't need a religion. Many religious folk have the best intentions. But too often, religious folk run and hide their misdeeds within their religion (and by doing so, they disserve society). And too often, religious folk are easily offended when someone mocks their make-believe characters – and, as we can see they can get really CRAZY!

    Although there are many religious folk with good intentions – some selflessly helping others, religions and religious organizations are, as a whole, just big old clubs – each trying to out do each other and inspiring hate and division (often disguised as love) along the way. The problem is that people too easily buy into religion and don't realize how unfounded it all is. And when they buy into it, they buy into a lot of really old, really weird tenets that are nothing but harmful for the human species.

    Take Christianity, for instance. Just look at all the things that Christians argue about amongst themselves today – abortion, men's and women's roles in the church, celibacy, contraception, acceptance of gays, etc. Most of these issues have their roots in the conflicted, unfounded tenets of early Christianity. Non-Mormons harp on Joseph Smith these days. But we really don't have any more proof at all to believe that Paul, the self-proclaimed "apostle" was anything more than an ordinary man who needed to make up religious "sales literature" to survive and spread his own personal beliefs. And yet a good chunk of the NT is attributed to Paul and accepted by many Christians. And a lot of what he wrote about has to do with many of the issues I mentioned above that have Christians fighting amongst themselves hundreds of years later. It's way too unfounded to argue over.

    Get a good cup of tea, and sit down and collect your thoughts. If you find it helpful to pray to a god (something you know nothing about), fine. But it is really healthier for the mind to leave behind all the characters that people over the centuries have invented or given powers to, for which there is little or no foundation. Because with those invented characters and powers – that's where division and hate join the little party in your mind. That's where, in your mind, you are inheriting the division and hate from ordinary politicians, lobbyists and salesmen from long ago. My goodness.

    mama kindless

    September 22, 2012 at 2:09 pm |
  9. Lorraine

    Yes, doing right can make people very rude, and angry, obviously, especially today, when you've been seriously brainwashed by the media, so sad. But, it too is prophesied to be, in Malachi 3:13-15, calling wrong, right, and with rewards, this is the modern day way, what a cheap shot of an excuse. Praise YHWH the King, all religions are idolatry, the law of righteousness is the only way. YHWH Bless.

    September 21, 2012 at 8:07 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You're a doofus.

      September 21, 2012 at 8:08 pm |
    • tallulah13

      When "doing right" gets in the way of compassion and human decency, then perhaps you should reconsider what you think is "right". There are better places to find morality than a 2000 year old book, written and edited by humans with a personal agenda.

      September 22, 2012 at 2:19 pm |
  10. Dyllis

    Lorraine really is that stupid.

    September 21, 2012 at 7:31 pm |
    • Lorraine

      Oh, yeah, you responded just fine to my run-ons, lol, he,he ha, ha. Bless you too.

      September 21, 2012 at 8:13 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      People respond to sh!tting by using toilet paper, Loopy. Responding to you is not much different.

      September 21, 2012 at 8:16 pm |
  11. YeahRight

    "someone, you are absolutely correct, these doctors are front men getting paid; and it sounds good but not good "

    This is about civil rights and the experts around the world have proven that being gay is normal.

    Marriage was defined by the US Supreme Court as a civil right. Recognized federal civil rights law in the United States is grounded in the U.S. Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court. By this standard, marriage has long been established as a civil right.

    The operative constitutional text is section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment, which was ratified in 1868. The relevant passages read as follows:

    No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws

    A federal appeals court on May 31st ruled that the Defense of Marriage Act is unconstitutional because it denies equal rights for legally married same-sex couples, making it likely that the Supreme Court will consider the politically divisive issue for the first time in its next term. This most likely will be decided in the courts and since most courts keep ruling in gays favor they should be able to over turn all the unconstitutional laws prejudice bigots have been trying to pass.

    Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

    Social science has shown that the concerns often raised about children of lesbian and gay parents—concerns that are generally grounded in prejudice against and stereotypes about gay people—are unfounded. Overall, the research indicates that the children of lesbian and gay parents do not differ from the children of heterosexual parents in their development, adjustment, or overall well-being.

    September 21, 2012 at 4:49 pm |
    • Lorraine

      Still trying to dress up the wrong way of the righteousness of life, just do what's right, I realize that right is an abstraction in these days, and times, thinking that bad, and wrong, is good, but, we have been mislead, and we all are responsible for our own righteousness, so am I. If its wrong, it just what it is, dressing it up, for gain, is not right. And hawaiiguest, what is wrong with having children, you have been greatly brainwashed, how did you get here, naturally I hope? get a grip fellows, its only righteousness towards a wholesome way of life, to live in goodness, and peace, dang. No one made of flesh, and blood can judge another only YHWH can. Praise YHWH.

      September 21, 2012 at 7:22 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Lorraine, just shut up. You are clueless.

      September 21, 2012 at 7:26 pm |
    • Dyllis

      Hey, Lorraine, work on those run-on sentences too. God will wup your fat ass hard if you can't get your grammar right when you talk about him.

      Yahweh blahway, I say.

      September 21, 2012 at 7:29 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Dyllis is wise.

      September 21, 2012 at 7:30 pm |
  12. Lorraine

    someone, you are absolutely correct, these doctors are front men getting paid; and it sounds good but not good enough James, and JWT, but no matter how you change it it is not right by YHWH, and romans is not the best of book, for that matter the NT is not a guide to follow, it comes, and goes, just like christian s using what is convenient to them only to excuse the wrong. Example: romans 4:15 stating that the 'law of YHWH is wrath, going against righteousness of the Creator, misleading the people, then in vs. 16, changing the word of YHWH to 'faith' is all one needs, NO, we must do the law of righteousness, the 10 commandments as said in Deut.5, this did not change. Then in romans:7:4, YHWH did not say this, its a lie, then in roman 7:9, one dies when you do the law, another lie for in Deut.32:45-47 the law is our 'life' the NT(not true), it does not fulfill the OT, it is then obsolete to the word of YHWH, and YHWH changes not in Malachi 3:6. Christ, which only means anointed, nor anyone, cannot say, or change the law without the prophecy of YHWH through His prophets taught in Amos 3:7. As Malachi 2:11 teaches not to marry into the daughter of a strange god, yet the nt does it anyway, just like christians do, take the flocks away from the truth, the true law, changing it.

    YHWH is not contrary, the people are; as in Ezekiel 14:14-23, no man can die for another man's sin, 'We' are all responsible for our own righteousness, and YHWH would not say this then put a man in the NT to die for us to clean up our sins, is a lie on YHWH, for He changes not, this is why He left this book to learn it, and a man laying with another man is not the law of righteousness, nor is lying, stealing, greed, hate, poverty, in difference etc...no matter how one tries to dress it up. And yeahright, I can see it now in the new kingdom of righteousness of YHWH, two men procreating oops, pleasing each other. Just let go of the perversion guys, or at least try when it comes to the holy One. Praise YHWH.

    September 21, 2012 at 4:08 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      I don't think I could give less of a flying flaming fuck what your immoral book of multiple choice says if I tried. Tell me Lorraine, do you get off on being a useless poster? Do you get off on deluding yourself to the point where you will spend months on a single article spouting off constant irrelevant bullshit? Is this the only way that you can feel like you contributed something to the world other than being the baby machine your religion wants you to be?

      September 21, 2012 at 4:54 pm |
    • JWT

      Something is not right by your version of your god ? I agree with Hawaii – so what since your god and I have nothing to do with each other , never have and never will. Your god is beneficial for you and you alone.

      September 22, 2012 at 8:10 am |
    • Lorraine

      Well, JWT, My strong one, or as you say god, is who began all Life, and its connection. I haven't seen a man yet who can make life, from what they call knowledge today. Making skin, eyes, and other vital organs, and procreation period, and let man try to make air, and water, ha! so until then, YHWH is the King, and I do wonder where you came from lol.

      September 23, 2012 at 1:10 pm |
    • JWT

      I came from my parents – like all people.

      Your god is yours – real to you and a make believe nothing to me. As it should be. No god is necessary for anything in this world.

      September 23, 2012 at 5:40 pm |
    • Lorraine

      JWT, yes, now where did people come from? What's their origination? don't give me the theories from your societies lying books, for they truly don't have an answer do they? That is because the answer is beyond their knowledge, and what makes this book of remembrance, the book that is most scrutinized, and wondered about to most scholars, and is in over 2500 languages, all over the world, and is why the zionist jews used it to reach their dominion, from 1897 of the Herzel Movement, Rothschild funded,next in 1904 gain allegiance with the monarch, to establish the Federal Reserve in 1913, next instigated both World Wars I, (1914)and then gained Israel in 1942, next instigated World Wars II,(1939-1945) then to the Bretton wood Agreement, 1945, to the fortune 500, ruling this world, now they were the smart ones, as YHWH made them to be, punishment for leaving Him, prophesied that their descendants would in Genesis 27, prophesy fulfilled. While the europeans thought, and blindly still think they were in charge they were being used, they thought the world was flat, but the edomite jew knew better, he knew this book, as he knew to conquer this world since the days of old, and of today, and why it is now called being illuminated.

      But many of you will stay in the blind, in denial, and that's just what the ones in dominion need you to do, its helped them thus far, they have plenty more to do with the dummies, massive control, we haven't seen nothing yet. The sword is, and has been upon this earth in Jeremiah 25, YHWH Bless, you will call Him, for He is all we have now, many will see.

      September 24, 2012 at 10:17 am |
  13. Atheism is Great for Kids and Grown-Ups Too!

    It's really best for all people including children to have an agnostic approach to god, and an atheistic approach to all religion. It keeps things simple for kids, and lets them be all that they can be. They just need to be taught that some things, like all religion, were just made up by salesmen and politicians from long ago. (Yes, charlatan folklore and spam started long before the Bible; what would make you think they hadn't?) And they need to be taught that other things, like God, we really don't know a damn thing about.

    Atheists have strong minds and don't need a religion. Many religious folk have the best intentions. But too often, religious folk run and hide their misdeeds within their religion (and by doing so, they disserve society). And too often, religious folk are easily offended when someone mocks their make-believe characters – and, as we can see they can get really CRAZY!

    Although there are many religious folk with good intentions – some selflessly helping others, religions and religious organizations are, as a whole, just big old clubs – each trying to out do each other and inspiring hate and division (often disguised as love) along the way. The problem is that people too easily buy into religion and don't realize how unfounded it all is. And when they buy into it, they buy into a lot of really old, really weird tenets that are nothing but harmful for the human species.

    Take Christianity, for instance. Just look at all the things that Christians argue about amongst themselves today – abortion, men's and women's roles in the church, celibacy, contraception, acceptance of gays, etc. Most of these issues have their roots in the conflicted, unfounded tenets of early Christianity. Non-Mormons harp on Joseph Smith these days. But we really don't have any more proof at all to believe that Paul, the self-proclaimed "apostle" was anything more than an ordinary man who needed to make up religious "sales literature" to survive and spread his own personal beliefs. And yet a good chunk of the NT is attributed to Paul and accepted by many Christians. And a lot of what he wrote about has to do with many of the issues I mentioned above that have Christians fighting amongst themselves hundreds of years later. It's way too unfounded to argue over.

    Get a good cup of tea, and sit down and collect your thoughts. If you find it helpful to pray to a god (something you know nothing about), fine. But it is really healthier for the mind to leave behind all the characters that people over the centuries have invented or given powers to, for which there is little or no foundation. Because with those invented characters and powers – that's where division and hate join the little party in your mind. That's where, in your mind, you are inheriting the division and hate from ordinary politicians, lobbyists and salesmen from long ago. My goodness.

    mama kindless

    September 20, 2012 at 9:56 pm |
    • ImLook'nUp

      Speak for yourself. There are many who enjoy a daily walk with The Holy Spirit. Praise God! For His wonders never cease.

      September 21, 2012 at 10:10 am |
    • Douglas

      @ ImLook'nUp

      Well said!

      Best,
      Douglas

      September 21, 2012 at 1:15 pm |
    • Lorraine

      christianity was made up by man, Constantine legalized it in 311bc, to control the masses, and for land gain, later in 800ce (the monarch Charlemagne, Treaty of Verdun), and profit, all prophesied in Daniel 11:36-45, and so is all religions they are pagan idolatry, not of the true Creator YHWH the King of all Life. Praise YHWH.

      September 21, 2012 at 4:20 pm |
  14. Lorraine

    hawaiiguest, I never excluded myself, i can't speak for Bob, but this is for us all, i never said that i don't have things that i need to get right with, we all must convert, for YHWH is not going to change for us, He's the creator of life, and as He expressed to Job in Job chapters 40,41, and 42, we can't do what YHWH can do, is all I'm saying here. It is like a child telling their parents that they are making the rules now, and they are not capable, or simply cannot pay a bill, or manage their own lives, that's ridiculous. For each day that we wake it does not have to be so, it is the grace of YHWH that we live another day. It is His will to give life, and to take it. All Praise to YHWH.

    September 19, 2012 at 9:59 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Get a life, Lorraine.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:01 pm |
    • George

      We are having special on stays of 5 nights or more for your Hamburg travel. Please contact us at:
      Youth Hostels of West Hamburg
      YHWH@hostelsgermany.ge

      Thank you.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:10 pm |
    • JWT

      I have no need to convert. And I can make a better life without your god.

      September 20, 2012 at 8:46 pm |
  15. 250 Ministers Proclamation

    As Christian clergy we proclaim the Good News concerning Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) persons and publicly apologize where we have been silent. As disciples of Jesus, who assures us that the truth sets us free, we recognize that the debate is over. The verdict is in. Homosexuality is not a sickness, not a choice, and not a sin. We find no rational biblical or theological basis to condemn or deny the rights of any person based on sexual orientation. Silence by many has allowed political and religious rhetoric to monopolize public perception, creating the impression that there is only one Christian perspective on this issue. Yet we recognize and celebrate that we are far from alone, as Christians, in affirming that LGBT persons are distinctive, holy, and precious gifts to all who struggle to become the family of God.

    In repentance and obedience to the Holy Spirit, we stand in solidarity as those who are committed to work and pray for full acceptance and inclusion of LGBT persons in our churches and in our world. We lament that LGBT persons are condemned and excluded by individuals and institutions, political and religious, who claim to be speaking the truth of Christian teaching. This leads directly and indirectly to intolerance, discrimination, suffering, and even death. The Holy Spirit compels us:

    ~to affirm that the essence of Christian life is not focused on sexual orientation, but how one lives by grace in relationship with God, with compassion toward humanity;

    ~to embrace the full inclusion of our LGBT brothers and sisters in all areas of church life, including leadership;

    ~to declare that the violence must stop. Christ’s love moves us to work for the healing of wounded souls who are victims of abuse often propagated in the name of Christ;

    ~to celebrate the prophetic witness of all people who have refused to let the voice of intolerance and violence speak for Christianity, especially LGBT persons, who have met hatred with love;

    Therefore we call for an end to all religious and civil discrimination against any person based on sexual orientation and gender identity and expression. All laws must include and protect the freedoms, rights, and equal legal standing of all persons, in and outside the church.

    September 18, 2012 at 4:29 pm |
    • Douglas

      There are no provisions for gay marriage in the Holy Bible.

      Jesus defines marriage as the union of one man and one woman.

      The definition may be found in the Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 19.

      We welcome celibate GLBTQ folk into the flock. Support celibate
      GLBTQ folk at your place of worship!

      There is salvation at the foot of the cross for celibate, non-fornicating GLBTQ believers!

      Best,
      Douglas

      September 19, 2012 at 9:12 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Dougie, do you have a clue as to how irrelevant you are? I doubt it.

      Nobody cares about what your "god" supposedly approves. Your "god" is non-existent. What matters here is law, and here's the bad news for you: the law isn't on your side. Gay marriage is going to become a reality.

      September 19, 2012 at 9:15 pm |
    • old ben

      It absolutely will. I'm not as worried about the 250 Ministers because they are slowly doing themselves in. The Mormons are another issue. They have learned well how to be nice at the right time to encourage growth. And I don't care if they do embrace gays – I can't buy into religion period.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:22 pm |
    • old ben

      Oh, and in my first sentence, I am really agreeing with Tom.

      September 19, 2012 at 10:23 pm |
    • James

      "There are no provisions for gay marriage in the Holy Bible."

      The scriptures actually say nothing about homosexuality as a psychosexual orientation. Our understandings of sexual orientation are distinctly modern ones that were not present in the minds of Scripture writers. A few passages of Scripture (seven at the most) object to certain types of same-sex expressions or acts. The particular acts in question, however, are sexual expressions which are exploitative, oppressive, commercialized, or offensive to ancient purity rituals. There is no Scriptural guidance for same-sex relationships which are loving and mutually respecting. Guidelines for these relationships should come from the same general Scriptural norms that apply to heterosexual relationships.

      September 20, 2012 at 10:45 am |
    • You suck

      Jajaja

      September 24, 2012 at 5:18 am |
  16. JP

    Is homosexuality a sin?

    Self-indulgence is a sin. But the relationship of two people of the same sex may or may not be self-indulgent.

    Abusing the neighbor is a sin. But the exploration of relationships among homosexuals as they search for partners, evaluate their existing formative relationships, and relate to each other may or may not be abusive.

    Disobeying what God commands in the Bible is a sin. But, we have biblically-derived criteria for assessing and applying specific commands by reading them against larger themes.
    Turning your back on God is a sin. Homosexuals are often among those who have turned their back on the church, and may be sinning because they also rejected the God they found in church. The church needs to be in mission to homosexuals with the message of Jesus and who God really is.

    Yielding to your passions, even celebrating them is a sin. Homosexuals do include those who have done this. But it is not an inherent aspect of being gay.

    Since we see people who have dedicated themselves to God, and for whom their gay sexual life is integrated into that decision and we see that their sexuality does not draw them away from church we must conclude that being and living gay is not a behavior in and of itself that produces pain to the neighbor and leads one away from God.

    By the criteria the scripture sets for us for what is godly life, and by the reasoning scripture asks us to employ, homosexuality cannot be described as against God’s law.

    If this seems like a rather quiet sort of justification for homosexuality, then perhaps it is because the grand clichés of this debate have been shouted at us for too long. But look at the Bible: it's demands and vision cut across all categories; not staying on the surface but penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart; rejecting all forms of self–justification, all forms of attack on the "other" and all forms of escape from God's assessment of our behavior. How on earth could we have ever thought that a series of flat rules was all God wanted to tell us on morality?

    September 18, 2012 at 4:21 pm |
  17. YeahRight

    "YEAH RIGHT IS THE FOLLOWING PEOPLE SHAWN,,,JEANNINE,,,,MATTHEW,,,,JP,,,,JOHN,,,,250MINISTERS,,,,DON,,,,ERIK,,,,JS,,,,MICHEAL, So if you see these posts please avoid them or look in the past posts thanks, These are total lies or major bending of real truths."

    Bob is a liar and has been proven wrong over and over again, so he continues to lie and throw tantrums like this because he has lost this argument.

    Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured.

    September 18, 2012 at 4:20 pm |
  18. Bob

    YEAH RIGHT IS THE FOLLOWING PEOPLE SHAWN,,,JEANNINE,,,,MATTHEW,,,,JP,,,,JOHN,,,,250MINISTERS,,,,DON,,,,ERIK,,,,JS,,,,MICHEAL, So if you see these posts please avoid them or look in the past posts thanks, These are total lies or major bending of real truths.

    September 18, 2012 at 3:39 pm |
    • Bob

      Paul lets look into this real man of God born in Tarsus, Paul was raised in Jerusalem at the feet of Gamaliel a leading authority in the Sanhedrin in the mid 1st century AD Gamaliel once gave some advice to the Sanhedrin in Acts to refrain from slaying the disciples of Jesus. Paul or Saul same person was a Roman citizen a Pharisee of pharisees and he prosecuted Christians until he had a encounter with Jesus. He was educated in the finest religious traditions and the Sanhedrin was the assembly of twenty-three judges appointed in every city in the Biblical Land of Israel. He also had a miraculous encounter with Jesus that changed his life. This is the man that John is calling prejudice and unscientific. Fourteen epistles in the New Testament are traditionally attributed to Paul. His authorship of seven of the fourteen is questioned by modern scholars. Augustine of Hippo developed Paul's idea that salvation is based on faith and not "works of the law".Martin Luther's interpretation of Paul's writings heavily influenced Luther's doctrine of sola fide.So John who is into credentials is not respecting the credentials of Saint John.With Paul's upbringing and teachings he would not even think it was ok to be gay and might be the one to kill you if you were. he did kill many Christians.Saying that paul would not approve of gay behavior is a drastic understatement. He also was spiritually apprised and had received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and was anointed a Apostle by Jesus. Paul understood from God and Jesus the meaning of relations it went far beyond the physical side and when you have relations with someone you are joining yourself with that person. This scripture explains it.
      Do you not know that the one who joins himself to a woman for hire is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH." But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body. Do you remember that God said I made them man and woman this is the spiritual side of marriage God looks at us in marriage as one person. So if God condemned gays and He created man and woman to be fruitful and multiply and He considers us one person and we are made in His image how many tenants of God does gay marriage violate?
      Interesting in Johns post he makes mention of Leviticus that the word abomination and says its the same Greek word for menstruation. Abomination in Hebrew is actually three distinct words, and are rendered in the English Bible by "abomination," or "abominable thing. It would be good if these words could be distinguished in translation, as they denote different degrees of abhorrence or loathsomeness. Everything akin to magic or divination is likewise an abomination to¯?e¯bha¯h; as are relational transgressions , especially relations between family and other unnatural offenses. This is the most severe form of abhorrence and it is used to describe gay relations, the abomination of desolation and diviners and mediums. This is the meaning in the Bible where it talks about a man laying with a man. John does not mention this in his research and actually glosses over it. Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thy house and thus become a thing set apart like unto it, thou shalt utterly detest it and utterly abhor it, for it is a thing set apart To¯?e¯bha¯h is even used as synonymous with “idol” or heathen deity, It is such a shame that some have not come to Love the Lord. This is the only way that we trully know how to love because He first loved us and shows us how to love the true love that we can never learn by our own humanness.

      September 18, 2012 at 3:45 pm |
    • Janet

      The Biblical condemnation of homosexuality is based on human ignorance; suspicion of those who are different and an overwhelming concern for ensuring the survival of the people. Since the Bible regards homosexuality as a capital crime, it clearly assumes that homosexuality is a matter of free choice, a deliberate rebellion against God. We have learned from modern science that people do not choose to be gay or straight; hence it is neither logical nor moral to condemn those whose nature it is to be gay or lesbian.

      September 18, 2012 at 4:23 pm |
    • midwest rail

      @ Janet – yours is a measured, well-reasoned response to an individual who is clearly obsessed. Arguing with Bob is like playing chess with a pigeon.No matter how skilled a player you are, the pigeon will roam aimlessly around the playing surface, knock over the pieces, sh!t on the board, and then do a victory strut. Pointless, really.

      September 18, 2012 at 4:27 pm |
    • Bob

      Midwest now that was funny. I really liked that as for Janet the one problem is exactly what you said it was reasoned and assumed. We all know what happens when you assume and your reasoning is coming from a yourself. Its not Gods reasoning its human reasoning and even the Bible says Gods ways are higher than our ways. It also says that with all of mans reasoning its folly to God. The perspective and knowledge coming from a person who is most likely a atheist is very limited and narrow so how can you say if a infinite God really did think about H0m0 in this context when He wrote the Bible? I doubt you even know much about the Bible much less have a relationship with God. So it is not such a well reasoned argument nor intelligent very presumptive and false. Also Mid I don't feel you are qualified to decide if this is a good argument either for pretty much the same reasons but thanks for the laughs.

      September 18, 2012 at 8:46 pm |
    • midwest rail

      @ Janet – as you can see from my reply to you, nowhere in my post do I mention " assuming " anything. Nowhere in my post does the word " assume " even appear. If you read Bob's reply to me, you can easily see what I referenced earlier. Pigeon chess.

      September 19, 2012 at 2:36 pm |
    • Bob

      Mid I think you have a reading comprehension problem if you will look I said Janet which is in reference to her and in her posts she says assumes and you say reasons. She is doing both, and you are actually doing both too but not really smart enough to know it. See you assumed she was right saying it was a well reasoned statement. At the very end I said you have pretty much the same problems, it does not say exact same or both anything that would liken to precisely the same. Its more approximately you know what that means don't you? That really means you could say reason without assume, imagine that. Well her statement was totally wrong and so yours was also. Yours more by way of reason and unstated assumptions thinking she was right in what she said about the Bible and God. This is why I am here you don't even know you are making the wrong assumptions because your reasoning's are wrong and not based on fact. So when you start to read and comprehend my posts you will begin to see the truth and then you wont have to assume and wont have to reason and your life will start to be based on God and the truth which is the solid foundation. You see the Bible says its the blind leading the blind and they both fall into the pit. This is the perfect example Janet made a statement you said it was well reasoned and you both fall into the pit of lies. Glad I could be of help in clearing up of this matter for you. Anytime you need to understand if what your thinking if it is correct just post it here I will clear it up for you that way you may be able to lead a fully productive life instead of one on the fringes of society.

      September 19, 2012 at 6:58 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Awww how cute. Is Bob still on this thread? Amazing that he could enjoy being ignorant so much.

      September 19, 2012 at 7:05 pm |
    • midwest rail

      @ hawaiiguest – he enjoys Pigeon Chess.

      September 19, 2012 at 8:54 pm |
    • Lorraine

      Bob is not wrong you people are all stiff necked, this is not allowed into the new kingdom of YHWH, no more than liars, or thieves, or adultery, or any perverseness of any kind, nor swearing it is not the way of righteousness. This does not follow the law of the new covenant Deuteronomy 5, and Jeremiah 31:31-40, and it never will, for YHWH does not change, Malachi 3:6, and in Deuteronomy 4, says not to add nor diminish any of His word the Creator of all Life, and this goes for all, as stated in Isaiah 56.

      We must remember it is for us to change, to convert to righteousness not the Almighty Creator of Life, YHWH. He is the holy One, and the only Savior, and Redeemer as taught in Isaiah 49:26, and in Leviticus it specifically says that a man should not lie with another man as with a woman, as plain as that, and none of this has changed, but in the last days many will. You will consider it PERFECTLY!! Jeremiah 23. YHWH Bless, and all Praise goes to YHWH.

      September 19, 2012 at 9:12 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Lorraine

      Done yet? Congratulations, you and Bob have set the record for most irrelevant drivel on a single article. Your prize is the constant self-righteous piousness you always feel when being condescending morons.

      September 19, 2012 at 9:29 pm |
    • Bob

      Hawaii please, this is why we have to talk in little terms with little ideas which seem condescending because you still don't understand. Yes we are righteous but that righteousness is not of our own decision or making contrary to what you think and are used to. It is Gods righteousness and imparted by Him. This is one of the gifts we receive when we accepted Jesus. The Bible says we are cleansed of all of our sins and unrighteousness. Unfortunately you again assumed and reasoned without knowing and again incorrectly, You don't seem to understand that we walk and declare the righteousness of God anything less would be a lie. The idea of other possibilities didn't enter your thought because again you are limited in scope and depth of understanding, the Bible refers to people like this as children. If what you thought were true we would be just like anyone else you probably congregate with. Who putting on faces is never really cleansed or true to who they are. These kind of airs are just from self and very limited and narrow and stop understanding of anything outside your own little world. So again this I had to explain and clarify for you. Just one more thing this could be what you are longing for is for the forgiveness of sins and righteousness. Again in your world you can feel it but not understand it as with things you live with all your life. Maybe it is what you need to do to become a true person not a shell.

      September 20, 2012 at 9:08 am |
    • Robert

      "These kind of airs are just from self and very limited and narrow and stop understanding of anything outside your own little world. So again this I had to explain and clarify for you. Just one more thing this could be what you are longing for is for the forgiveness of sins and righteousness. Again in your world you can feel it but not understand it as with things you live with all your life. Maybe it is what you need to do to become a true person not a shell."

      Bob accused Janet of making assumptions, yet his posts reek of it. Bob go back and read what you have been writing you've been talking about yourself. You see this in other people because it's actually you that have all of these behavior issues or did you not understand the log in your eye concept in the Bible. The bible was never written to be taken as literal as you have done which is why there are so many different interpretations and denominations within Christianity over the past 2000 years. Even the people that study the bible for years will tell you that the bible was edited to create specific themes and concepts.

      September 20, 2012 at 10:56 am |
    • Bob

      Wow Robert are you off the mark. In my explanation it is quite clear the misunderstanding that has happened sorry you don't see it. Just so you know when some one has a point of view different from yours and that person has been where you are he understands where you are coming from but you don't understand where he is coming from that is what is happening here. Not to mention in your rush to judge you haven't the slightest idea what is being talked about so I would suggest you sit this one out. As a last point if you cant take the Bible literally then who gets to decide what is right and what it says? I surely don't have confidence in any atheist or most any man to even know whats in the Bible and I am not going to allow them to interpret it for me. My Salvation depends on God and it is a tool to learn who God is what He expects from me and what I can expect from Him. So you say God would not make it abundantly clear to me, since my salvation and life depends upon it? That is not God,,, God is very capable to tell us what He said in the fact that He made us the universe and all that is in it and hasn't left us all alone. You are not above God to interpret and I would ask how much you even know of God and about the Bible. Because if you made this statement that you cant take the Bible literally I would think you would have enough respect and intelligence to have taken the time to pray, research, listen and read your Bible and have that relationship with God otherwise you are no authority and should keep in the side lines. Because you also have offered a opinion as fact which is a lie, deception, and just plain foolish.

      September 20, 2012 at 12:29 pm |
    • Robert

      Bob, again you are talking about yourself, it’s perfectly clear that you really don’t even understand the bible or Christian history, which is why your interpretation of the bible is wrong. The Bible contains all sorts of linguistic conventions like poetry, historical narrative, figures of speech, hyperbole, metaphor, etc. The fact that Christianity is divided on this issue proves that there is no clear-cut interpretation of the bible, not to mention all the various denominations with in it.

      September 20, 2012 at 3:20 pm |
    • Bob

      Robert and you know this how?

      September 20, 2012 at 8:11 pm |
  19. Jeannine

    "So how can the gay relationship be holy when its not how God established a relationship to be?"

    The Scriptures were written approximately 2000 or more years ago when there was no knowledge of constitutional homosexuality. The Scripture writers believed that all people were naturally heterosexual so that they viewed homosexuality activity as unnatural. Women today are pointing out that the inferiority of women expressed in the scriptures was a product of culture and the times in which the Bible was written; it should not be followed today, now that we are beginning to appreciate the natural and God-given equality of men and women.

    Similarly, as we know that homosexuality is just as natural and God-given as heterosexuality, we realize that the Biblical injunctions against homosexuality were conditioned by the attitudes and beliefs about this form of sexual expression which were held by people without benefit of centuries of scientific knowledge and understanding.

    It is unfair of us to expect or impose a twentieth century mentality and understanding about equality of genders, races and sexual orientations on the Biblical writers. We must be able to distinguish the eternal truths the Bible is meant to convey from the cultural forms and attitudes expressed there.

    September 18, 2012 at 10:45 am |
    • Lorraine

      Jeannine, it is obvious that you do not know how this book relates, how it reads, being old has nothing to do with anything, this is how clever the Creator YHWH is He knows all, Isaiah 55:8,9, His way, His thoughts are higher than ours. Therefore, this book of remembrance, the so called OT, is juxtaposed, it is relating to what has happened, what is happening, and what will happen, nothing is old here dear. YHWH Bless.

      September 19, 2012 at 9:19 pm |
  20. John

    "Gay mindset is a abomination to God ,He created them man and woman. The command was go multiply and populate the earth."

    Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.

    Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.

    There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.

    Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.

    Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?

    Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).

    That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex.

    September 18, 2012 at 10:43 am |
    • Simon

      This is a twisted fable...invented by the twisted Bishop Frankenstein. Someone has cut and pasted this at least fifty times, and it is getting old. Get out your triple X vomit bag if you can stand to read again....

      September 18, 2012 at 3:22 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "This is a twisted fable...invented by the twisted Bishop Frankenstein. Someone has cut and pasted this at least fifty times, and it is getting old. Get out your triple X vomit bag if you can stand to read again...."

      Huh? So you changed your name to Simon now Bob...oops you posted this under your name Bob too. Duh!

      September 18, 2012 at 4:32 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke and Eric Marrapodi with daily contributions from CNN's worldwide newsgathering team.