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My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage
The author backs same-sex marriage because of his faith, not in spite of it.
May 19th, 2012
02:00 AM ET

My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage

Editor's Note: Mark Osler is a Professor of Law at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

By Mark Osler, Special to CNN

I am a Christian, and I am in favor of gay marriage. The reason I am for gay marriage is because of my faith.

What I see in the Bible’s accounts of Jesus and his followers is an insistence that we don’t have the moral authority to deny others the blessing of holy institutions like baptism, communion, and marriage. God, through the Holy Spirit, infuses those moments with life, and it is not ours to either give or deny to others.

A clear instruction on this comes from Simon Peter, the “rock” on whom the church is built. Peter is a captivating figure in the Christian story. Jesus plucks him out of a fishing boat to become a disciple, and time and again he represents us all in learning at the feet of Christ.

During their time together, Peter is often naïve and clueless – he is a follower, constantly learning.

After Jesus is crucified, though, a different Peter emerges, one who is forceful and bold. This is the Peter we see in the Acts of the Apostles, during a fevered debate over whether or not Gentiles should be baptized. Peter was harshly criticized for even eating a meal with those who were uncircumcised; that is, those who did not follow the commands of the Old Testament.

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

Peter, though, is strong in confronting those who would deny the sacrament of baptism to the Gentiles, and argues for an acceptance of believers who do not follow the circumcision rules of Leviticus (which is also where we find a condemnation of homosexuality).

His challenge is stark and stunning: Before ordering that the Gentiles be baptized Peter asks “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

None of us, Peter says, has the moral authority to deny baptism to those who seek it, even if they do not follow the ancient laws. It is the flooding love of the Holy Spirit, which fell over that entire crowd, sinners and saints alike, that directs otherwise.

My Take: Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality

It is not our place, it seems, to sort out who should be denied a bond with God and the Holy Spirit of the kind that we find through baptism, communion, and marriage. The water will flow where it will.

Intriguingly, this rule will apply whether we see homosexuality as a sin or not. The water is for all of us. We see the same thing at the Last Supper, as Jesus gives the bread and wine to all who are there—even to Peter, who Jesus said would deny him, and to Judas, who would betray him.

The question before us now is not whether homosexuality is a sin, but whether being gay should be a bar to baptism or communion or marriage.

Your Take: Rethinking the Bible on homosexuality

The answer is in the Bible. Peter and Jesus offer a strikingly inclusive form of love and engagement. They hold out the symbols of Gods’ love to all. How arrogant that we think it is ours to parse out stingily!

I worship at St. Stephens, an Episcopal church in Edina, Minnesota. There is a river that flows around the back and side of that church with a delightful name: Minnehaha Creek. That is where we do baptisms.

The Rector stands in the creek in his robes, the cool water coursing by his feet, and takes an infant into his arms and baptizes her with that same cool water. The congregation sits on the grassy bank and watches, a gentle army.

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At the bottom of the creek, in exactly that spot, is a floor of smooth pebbles. The water rushing by has rubbed off the rough edges, bit by bit, day by day. The pebbles have been transformed by that water into something new.

I suppose that, as Peter put it, someone could try to withhold the waters of baptism there. They could try to stop the river, to keep the water from some of the stones, like a child in the gutter building a barrier against the stream.

It won’t last, though. I would say this to those who would withhold the water of baptism, the joy of worship, or the bonds of marriage: You are less strong than the water, which will flow around you, find its path, and gently erode each wall you try to erect.

The redeeming power of that creek, and of the Holy Spirit, is relentless, making us all into something better and new.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Mark Osler.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Christianity • Episcopal • Gay marriage • My Take • Opinion

soundoff (15,115 Responses)
  1. Erik

    " God made man and women it kind of clarifies that God made them that way purposely and its natural and science goes along with it"

    No it doesn't. All major medical professional organizations concur that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed, from gay to straight or otherwise. The American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and European Psychological, Psychiatric, and Medical Associations all agree with this, as does the World Health Organization and the medical organizations of Japan, China, and most recently, Thailand. Furthermore, attempts to change one's sexual orientation can be psychologically damaging, and cause great inner turmoil and depression, especially for Christian gays and lesbians.

    The scientific evidence of the innateness of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism is overwhelming, and more peer-reviewed studies which bolster this fact are being added all the time. Science has long regarded sexual orientation – and that's all sexual orientations, including heterosexuality – as a phenotype. Simply put, a phenotype is an observable set of properties that varies among individuals and is deeply rooted in biology. For the scientific community, the role of genetics in sexuality is about as "disputable" as the role of evolution in biology.

    On the second point, that there is no conclusion that there is a "gay gene," they are right. No so-called gay gene has been found, and it's highly unlikely that one ever will. This is where conservative Christians and Muslims quickly say "See, I told you so! There's no gay gene, so being gay is a choice!"

    The fact that a so-called "gay gene" has not been discovered does not mean that homosexuality is not genetic in its causation. This is understandably something that can seem a bit strange to those who have not been educated in fields of science and advanced biology, and it is also why people who are not scientists ought not try to explain the processes in simple black-and-white terms. There is no gay gene, but there is also no "height gene" or "skin tone gene" or "left-handed gene." These, like sexuality, have a heritable aspect, but no one dominant gene is responsible for them.

    Many genes, working in sync, contribute to the phenotype and therefore do have a role in sexual orientation. In many animal model systems, for example, the precise genes involved in sexual partner selection have been identified, and their neuro-biochemical pathways have been worked out in great detail. A great number of these mechanisms have been preserved evolutionarily in humans, just as they are for every other behavioral trait we know (including heterosexuality).

    There are many biologic traits which are not specifically genetic but are biologic nonetheless. These traits are rooted in hormonal influences, contributed especially during the early stages of fetal development. This too is indisputable and based on extensive peer-reviewed research the world over. Such prenatal hormonal influences are not genetic per se, but are inborn, natural, and biologic nevertheless.

    October 16, 2012 at 1:24 pm |
    • fred

      Clearly there is a lot of abuse in the gay community. The biggest abuse is in the form of brainwashing that claims this is normal behavior. Regardless of how you define normal the medical evidence is clear as to the dangers of risky behavior. Those who promote risky behavior are abusers responsible for unnecessary pain, suffering and early death in the gay community.
      Congratulations you at least confined the “choice” to orientation not what one chooses to do with their orientation. We all have choices that we make in our lives and there is accountability for those choices. Those that know God understand the choices that count as to the eternal nature of the soul are not based on heredity or socioeconomic conditions that are outside of your control. Regardless of orientation the real choice that matters is accepting or rejecting God. Certainly one who is actively participating in hom-mo$exual life style runs square into the Word of God that says it is not right before a Holy God.
      Orientation is not the issue faith is the issue. Our churches are filled with people that do not really walk with God. If you walk with God then you know exactly what is good and pleasing before God and what is causing separation between you and the presence of God. You cannot give your best to God and to yourself if the demands are in conflict. Choices.

      October 16, 2012 at 2:00 pm |
    • .

      "Ronald Regonzo" who degenerates to:
      "Nii " degenerates to:
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      Taskmaster" degenerates to:
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      "Atheism is not healthy ..." degenerates to:
      "Dodney Rangerfield" degenerates to:
      "tina" degenerates to:
      "captain america" degenerates to:
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      "Anybody know how to read? " degenerates to:
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      "fred" degenerates to:
      "!" degenerates to:
      "pervert alert"

      This troll is not a christian..

      October 16, 2012 at 2:04 pm |
    • Robert

      fred cite your source on this statement. "Regardless of how you define normal the medical evidence is clear as to the dangers of risky behavior. Those who promote risky behavior are abusers responsible for unnecessary pain, suffering and early death in the gay community."

      If we use your logic there is more proof that heterosexuals have more STD and physical abuse in their relationships than homosexual ones so then we should ban all those relationships too.

      October 16, 2012 at 2:11 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Fred – you seem to be under the impression that the US is a theocracy. We aren't. So whatever it is that you think your version of a god wants, needs, desires, or demands, is irrelevant.

      Your post also demonstrates that you purposefully choose to be profoundly ignorant about science.

      October 16, 2012 at 2:12 pm |
    • Anybody know how to read?

      erik sayz, '........Such prenatal hormonal influences are not genetic per se, but are inborn, natural, and biologic nevertheless...' You are stifling scientific investigation. Don't you want the investigators looking for a SOLUTION for the unbalanced and unnatural hormonal screwup? I don't believe this is true in all cases, BTW.

      October 16, 2012 at 2:15 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Don't you want the investigators looking for a SOLUTION for the unbalanced and unnatural hormonal screwup?"

      This is how uneducated people are on this subject.

      Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      Keep showing the world what an idiot you are.

      October 16, 2012 at 2:21 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Hi Fred,

      Clearly there is a lot of abuse in the gay community.

      Clearly? In what way? Prove it to me. Show me the studies and peer-reviewed results that indicate that abuse is prevalent within the gay community.

      The biggest abuse is in the form of brainwashing that claims this is normal behavior.

      How is it brainwashing when study after study confirms that it is true?

      Regardless of how you define normal the medical evidence is clear as to the dangers of risky behavior.

      Risky behavior is not the same as homosexual behavior. Risky involves not getting tested, not using protection, having multiple partners (without also getting tested and using protection, etc). A monogamous relationship between two men for 20+ years? Not risky.

      Those who promote risky behavior are abusers responsible for unnecessary pain, suffering and early death in the gay community.

      There are always going to be those who engage in intercourse without protection, those who do not get tested. This is true even in the straight world. However, ongoing education in the proper use of condoms and the need for reliable testing continues to improve. In a recent situation where I was in a room of 25 or so men and women of various orientations, only 2 had ever had intercourse without a condom.

      Congratulations you at least confined the “choice” to orientation not what one chooses to do with their orientation.

      As has been established, orientation is not a choice. It is an innate part of who a person is.

      We all have choices that we make in our lives and there is accountability for those choices.

      Indeed. We are each accountable for our own actions, our own lives. Perhaps it's time we stopped trying to control what other people are doing in their lives and pay more attention to what we are doing with out own.

      Those that know God understand the choices that count as to the eternal nature of the soul are not based on heredity or socioeconomic conditions that are outside of your control. Regardless of orientation the real choice that matters is accepting or rejecting God. Certainly one who is actively participating in hom-mo$exual life style runs square into the Word of God that says it is not right before a Holy God.

      That clearly depends on your both your interpretation of said "word of god" and your belief that said "word of god" has any bearing on your life.

      Orientation is not the issue faith is the issue.

      Oh, good. My faith tells me that all Love is Love, and gender doesn't matter. So, we're all good there.

      Our churches are filled with people that do not really walk with God. If you walk with God then you know exactly what is good and pleasing before God and what is causing separation between you and the presence of God. You cannot give your best to God and to yourself if the demands are in conflict. Choices.

      Sounds like you should be paying more attention to those choices of yours, and stop meddling in the choices of others.

      October 16, 2012 at 2:23 pm |
    • thecollegeadmissionsguru

      @Erik.. Well said!

      October 16, 2012 at 2:23 pm |
    • Anybody know how to read?

      YeahRight sayz, 'blah blah blah' Dude your educated shrinks are quite capable of doing major flip-flops on the subject and like the Evolutionists, DID!

      October 16, 2012 at 2:30 pm |
    • thecollegeadmissionsguru

      Nearly half a million professionals, of whom I am proud to be among, are NOT all wrong. While what you call "Flip-Flop" among credible scientists is actually the scientific method, unlike the Christian Method, scientists seek to challenge what they learn and what they see. It is how science is advanced, and while there are times when we make mistakes, there is always one or many who correct the error and science moves on. Unlike FAITH which seeks to stymie ALL thought, all research, and all challenges.

      October 16, 2012 at 2:37 pm |
    • Anybody know how to read?

      180 flips? Why not just use a coin and call it science?

      October 16, 2012 at 2:42 pm |
    • fred

      Robert
      Risky behavior happens under all sorts of subsets. I do not think you need sources to know unprotected $ex, drinking and drugs etc. is risky behavior that causes pain, suffering and death. If you are referring to ho-mo$exual orientation being normal I intentionally said regardless of how you define normal. The reason is simply that it is normal for man to use 10% of his brain and normal not to use 90% of his brain. It is normal for drunkenness to cause lack of judgment it is not normal to stumble around drunk.

      October 16, 2012 at 2:45 pm |
    • thecollegeadmissionsguru

      180 Flips on what? And, would you care to share where you got that number? Since I'm not sure what you are talking about, I can't answer directly to your statement, but I can sort of guess at something. There are MANY so called "flips" in science, again it is how we make sure that we are on the right path to knowledge. You may argue with against science methods, but that does not make your position a very strong one and completes the Fundamentalist Picture you paint for yourself.

      October 16, 2012 at 2:57 pm |
    • fred

      Primewonk
      The laws of man are just that the laws of man. Without God you have empty words that shift with the mood of the powers that write the laws. These laws are meaningless outside of the time and culture in which they were written. 2,000 years ago the Sanhedrin were still stoning those caught in adultery based on the law of men. Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery “neither do I condemn you now go and sin no more”. It is the breaking of laws that are eternal which have affect beyond the time and culture they are given. If you are correct in your godless worldview then you and I were subject to the same laws. If you are wrong about your worldview then you and I are still subject to the same laws as nothing changes while there is still light.

      October 16, 2012 at 3:03 pm |
    • Anybody know how to read?

      Guru, you are a fundie gambler, but you don't know when to fold em.

      October 16, 2012 at 3:08 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Fred wrote, " The reason is simply that it is normal for man to use 10% of his brain and normal not to use 90% of his brain"

      This of course, is an old wives tale. It is simply not true. And it again reinforces that you purposefully choose to be profoundly ignorant about science.

      And again, since you have no evidence to support the existence of your god, or any god, your musings about this mythological creatures "laws" are irrelevant. I could easily counter by claiming that the one true god is the giant invisible fuzzy pink unicorn that circles Uranûs. And he demands that left-handed people must wear plaid socks. This carries EXACTLY the same weight as the drivel you post about your skydaddy.

      October 16, 2012 at 3:29 pm |
    • fred

      myweightinwords

      “Show me the studies and peer-reviewed results that indicate that abuse is prevalent within the gay community.”
      =>abuse in the community as in; drugs, alcohol, unprotected $ex, etc. The abuse is in allowing the brainwashing that condones risky behavior. I personally observe the pressures to join with the community risky behavior. Perhaps you are arguing that it is the same pressure as in straight communities. The make up of the community does not change the abuse or effect.

      “Risky behavior is not the same as hom-o$exual behavior. Risky involves not getting tested, not using protection, having multiple partners (without also getting tested and using protection, etc). A monogamous relationship between two men for 20+ years? Not risky.”
      =>I have not observed your long term monogamous relationship to be common practice.

      “ However, ongoing education in the proper use of condoms and the need for reliable testing continues to improve.”
      =>improve yes, but no one has figured out a way to bring down the incidence of risky behavior.

      “As has been established, orientation is not a choice. It is an innate part of who a person is.”
      =>again orientation is not a choice what you do with your orientation is a choice. We currently have 32 people in our group that have made a choice they understand the difference.

      “Perhaps it's time we stopped trying to control what other people are doing in their lives and pay more attention to what we are doing with our own.”

      =>yes that is exactly what the Bible says.

      “That clearly depends on your both your interpretation of said "word of god" and your belief that said "word of god" has any bearing on your life.”
      =>no it is not subject to interpretation on key well defined issues. Ignore your choice of sins listed in the Bible as sin is a symptom of a fallen world and we all are full of it. The key is the heartfelt understanding that sin is an offense to a holy God. There is only one sin that stands above the rest and that is rejection of God. That key point begins with Adam and winds through the entire Bible.

      “My faith tells me that all Love is Love, and gender doesn't matter.”
      =>Love is one of the key attributes of God and Jesus put a bright spotlight on it. The order is important; love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. When God made man in the image of God love was one of the gifts.

      “Sounds like you should be paying more attention to those choices of yours, and stop meddling in the choices of others.”
      =>Sound advice ! I just wanted to make sure vulnerable people are not mislead or pressured into thinking that they do not have a choice about what they do with their orientation.

      October 16, 2012 at 4:01 pm |
    • fred

      Primewonk
      A few years ago I would have agreed with your assessment of God.
      Perhaps I do not understand what is meant by “normal”. I think you are saying being left handed is just as normal as being right handed?
      If you say no then your orientation argument is dead. If you say yes then gay and straight men exhibit identical behavioral and physiological functionality. Now, is that what you observe?

      October 16, 2012 at 4:18 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Fred,

      =>abuse in the community as in; drugs, alcohol, unprotected $ex, etc.

      This was not readily understood from what you wrote. I apologize if I was reading into what you said, but your wording and context lead me to the conclusion I made.

      The abuse is in allowing the brainwashing that condones risky behavior. I personally observe the pressures to join with the community risky behavior.

      Peer pressure is a part of all human groups. It is a fact of life. We all want to fit in. I don't think that's brainwashing. I think it's just what it is. Peer pressure.

      Perhaps you are arguing that it is the same pressure as in straight communities. The make up of the community does not change the abuse or effect.

      So why make the distinction? It's more likely a product of age of the group than it is the orientation of the group. Also, more closely related to socio-economic grouping than orientation.

      =>I have not observed your long term monogamous relationship to be common practice.

      You are not looking very far then. There are lots of couples out there who have been together for many, many years and are committed to long term, monogamous relationships.

      =>improve yes, but no one has figured out a way to bring down the incidence of risky behavior.

      Again, a condition of being human. There's a reason risky behaviors exist.

      =>again orientation is not a choice what you do with your orientation is a choice. We currently have 32 people in our group that have made a choice they understand the difference.

      If they choose to live their lives ignoring a part of who they are, or denying themselves a loving, giving relationship and can honestly abstain from sexual relations, that's their choice. Doesn't mean anyone else will or has to make the same one.

      =>yes that is exactly what the Bible says.

      That was kinda my point.

      =>no it is not subject to interpretation on key well defined issues.

      And yet, thousands of ministers, preachers, teachers who share your same basic faith disagree with you. So...clearly there IS room for interpretation.

      Ignore your choice of sins listed in the Bible as sin is a symptom of a fallen world and we all are full of it.

      I don't live my life based on the bible....so I don't believe in sin. I don't believe we are a fallen world.

      The key is the heartfelt understanding that sin is an offense to a holy God.

      Any god offended by most of what you call sin, is not a god who needs my time or affection.

      There is only one sin that stands above the rest and that is rejection of God. That key point begins with Adam and winds through the entire Bible.

      Again, we come back to having to first put stock in the bible and the stories it tells.

      =>Love is one of the key attributes of God and Jesus put a bright spotlight on it. The order is important; love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. When God made man in the image of God love was one of the gifts.

      And yet so much self-hatred is taught by those who claim your god, so much emphasis on being dirty, horrible sinners unworthy of God's love.

      =>Sound advice ! I just wanted to make sure vulnerable people are not mislead or pressured into thinking that they do not have a choice about what they do with their orientation.

      You would rather they what? Spend their lives not having love? Or pretend that love of your god can replace the warm embrace of a partner?

      Again, I don't see a lot of "vulnerable people" being lead into anything. I see a lot of vulnerable people being preyed upon by folks who think being gay is a sin however.

      October 16, 2012 at 4:21 pm |
    • YeahRight

      " The abuse is in allowing the brainwashing that condones risky behavior. I personally observe the pressures to join with the community risky behavior. Perhaps you are arguing that it is the same pressure as in straight communities. The make up of the community does not change the abuse or effect."

      Fred can't grasp the fact that you can't choose to be gay. You can't be pressured into your sexual orientation idiot.

      October 16, 2012 at 4:25 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "I have not observed your long term monogamous relationship to be common practice."

      Uh Fred if you want to use this argument you might want to look up the divorce rate among straights or better yet Christians. LMAO.

      These statistics came, by the way from a Evangelical Christian research institute, the Barna Group, in the year 2000:

      Denomination (in order of decreasing divorce rate)

      Non-denominational** 34%

      Baptists 29%

      Mainline Protestants 25%

      Mormons 24%

      Catholics 21%

      Lutherans 21%

      Barna's results verified findings of earlier polls: that CONSERVATIVE PROTESTANT CHRISTIANS, ON AVERAGE, HAVE THE HIGHEST DIVORCE RATE, while mainline Christians have a much lower rate. They found some new information as well: that ATHIESTS AND AGNOSTICS HAVE THE LOWEST DIVORCE RATES OF ALL. George Barna commented that the results raise "questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families." The data challenge "the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriage." [...]

      The data showed that the HIGHEST DIVORCE RATES WERE FOUND IN THE BIBLE BELT.* "Tennessee, Arkansas, Alabama and Oklahoma round out the Top Five in frequency of divorce...the divorce rates in these conservative states are roughly 50 percent above the national average" of 4.2/1000 people.

      * Note: Divorce rates were still higher in the Bible Belt as of 2009 according to a US Census report.

      I don't remember much discussion of marriage rights for same sex couples back in 2000, do you? Perhaps among gay activists but not in the national news. Maybe, just maybe, the people who fired the first shot in any so-called war on marriage were conservative Christians, and they were shooting themselves in the foot at that! After all, the divorce rate is lower among (drum roll please) atheists and agnostics than among Christians - yes, lower even then Catholics!

      The Barna Research Group, an evangelical Christian organization that does surveys and research to better understand what Christians believe and how they behave, studied divorce rates in America in 1999 and found surprising evidence that divorce is far lower among atheists than among conservative Christians – exactly the opposite of what they were probably expecting.

      October 16, 2012 at 4:30 pm |
    • mama k

      fred wrote: "abuse in the community as in; drugs, alcohol, unprotected $ex, etc. " Fred, that is just generalized BS. I would have thought you would be smarter than to lump all those things together even though I doubt you can find credible proof of any of it.

      Further more, some of the things you've said seem to stem from your belief system since you mention. So the other day, you said you'd get back to me if you could dig up something that would prove the self-appointed "apostle" Paul's "special" visit by your god – you know, that resulted in his "apostleship". I know you said you would look over the weekend, but being that you make more claims here about this subject referencing your religion, I think now would be a good time for you to tell us what the proof is of Paul's "visit." (That is, if Paul is a component of your belief system.) It is important to even this topic because chatty Cathy Paul wrote about many things in the Epistles, and some of the references arguing against the natural state of homosexuality – well most of the biblical ones, come from Paul. My point is that there is no foundation for Paul's special visit, and therefore, any reference from Paul's words on homosexuality constitute are nothing more than opinions of an ordinary man.

      Also, fred wrote: "I just wanted to make sure vulnerable people are not mislead or pressured into thinking that they do not have a choice about what they do with their orientation."

      OK, you need to back that up. I don't believe that claim for a minute. Unless you concede that it is just your opinion.

      October 16, 2012 at 4:32 pm |
    • mama k

      typo correction for my last reply:

      "constitute are nothing" should just be "constitute nothing"

      October 16, 2012 at 4:36 pm |
    • YeahRight

      Just remember that fred aka Bob aka pervert alert, etc... get all their information from well known hate groups that have been proven to be publishing bogus reports about the gay community.

      October 16, 2012 at 4:44 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "I have not observed your long term monogamous relationship to be common practice."

      Here's what the experts had to say on this subject. Data also show that similar to heterosetxuals, many lesbians and gay men date in their 20s, settle down into a relationship in their 30s and maintain it long-term. Research shows that children raised by lesbian and gay parents develop in the same positive ways that children raised by hetetrosetxual parents do, and that same-setx couples are just as capable of providing a supportive environment for children.

      Again, this just continues to prove that fred aka Bob aka pervert alert have no clue what they are talking about.

      October 16, 2012 at 5:08 pm |
    • fred

      myweightinwords

      “I see a lot of vulnerable people being preyed upon by folks who think being gay is a sin however”
      =>I hope I am not doing that unintentionally. My goal is to reveal the love of God which is almost impossible to a community that thinks the Bible is hate speech.

      “And yet so much self-hatred is taught by those who claim your god, so much emphasis on being dirty, horrible sinners unworthy of God's love”
      =>you got me there. The Bible does leave that impression. If we do not need saving from our sins we do not need a savior. As human we continue to sin so I cannot get around the obvious. On the other hand perhaps for me I need that constant reminder to do what is right and good. I do not see a downside when doing what is right and good before God.

      The hangover from the Old Testament “dirty” in need of cleansing theme has carried over into today. This was an old symbolic picture language that does not translate culturally. The att-itude of our soul should be inclined towards a desire for goodness compared with an evil disposition. Cain vs Able or the two criminals on the cross with Christ in Luke 23:39-43 are simple examples of goodness vs evil.

      “Any god offended by most of what you call sin, is not a god who needs my time or affection.”
      =>God as punctuated by Christs suffering is offended by what we do to each other and ourselves when we reject the way God would have us live.

      “Again, we come back to having to first put stock in the bible and the stories it tells.”
      =>can’t argue with that
      Thank you for your other points they helped me sort a few things out.

      October 16, 2012 at 5:51 pm |
    • fred

      Mamma k
      Here ya go on risky behavior from the CDC:
      http://www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/STD.htm
      http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/index.htm

      As far as Paul goes he happens to be the most approved writer of the Bible with virtually all credible historians attesting to the authorship of 10 of his letters. There is no doubt unless you also want to argue Big Foot lives.
      Now your next argument is that he just made this stuff up. Saul of Tarsus was a much respected strong educated zealot for the Jew. So the common skeptic argues he had a stroke and of course Jesus was just a religious nut job.
      The writings of the Apostles also are consistent with what Paul wrote. So you will toss out all the Apostles, Paul, Josephus, Polycarp, Clement of Alexandria, Ignatius and of course the 18,000 manuscripts because they were written after AD200.

      Paul the High Priest and Jewish Elders that respected him all set out to kill off anyone that witnessed or believed what happened to Christ and the resurrection. Then this intellectual opposed to Christ suddenly became the biggest supporter. How does that happen? How does Paul turn the world upside-down to this very day? One man came to the support of the Apostles led by Peter and the cause of Christ until the day of his horrid death for maintaining what he knew.
      Paul challenged Jerusalem to look up the 500 witnesses that saw resurrected Christ and by AD 55 not one challenge to Paul came forward. No one challenged Paul or Christ until recent times.
      Your poof to the contrary is what exactly? A skeptic’s conspiracy theory with no evidence?

      October 16, 2012 at 7:25 pm |
    • mama k

      @fred

      Initially, fred wrote: "abuse in the community as in; drugs, alcohol, unprotected $ex, etc. "
      to which I replied: "Fred, that is just generalized BS. I would have thought you would be smarter than to lump all those things together even though I doubt you can find credible proof of any of it. "

      OK, fred, you have provided some useful information via a link to the CDC on the unprotected sex issue. I would have had a different reply had you not tried to insinuate that gays necessarily have more of a problem with drugs and alcohol in the community (by making a grand statement to include all of that–see above where I copied your claim). So you are only 1/3 of the way in providing credibility to the picture that you painted with that statement.

      Now, on to Paul. fred provided some things about historians supporting that Paul indeed authored most of the Epistles. I wasn't really contesting that point, although I don't necessarily buy into what historians or writings about other writings give us in the way of credible proof about much of the Bible. But fine, let's assume Paul existed and wrote most of those Epistles. Now we get to my point.

      I wrote: [could you] "dig up something that would prove the self-appointed "apostle" Paul's "special" visit by your god – you know, that resulted in his "apostleship".

      fred wrote: "Now your next argument is that he just made this stuff up."

      I didn't say that, fred. Although that might be a possibility. But I'm sure people could come up with many other possibilities that involve Paul thinking he was visited, without it being a reality. We both know how powerful the mind is, especially if you have a fever, or eat or the wrong things. The point is I'm not necessarily saying he had to be consciously lying to himself or others to make the claims that he did (where this event may very well not have transpired). So what do we have that gives any credibility to the claim of his vision? Just his words. That is, unless you can show me some other concrete proof. This is what you still have not provided–you've just danced around it quite a bit.

      It's just like the case of Joseph Smith. For someone like me seeking credibility for Paul's experience, I don't care if other apostles believed him. I don't care if his secretary believed what Paul told him. I don't care what a historians opinion is. I don't care of the opinions about Paul's character written by others near his time. Why don't I care about these things? Because 1) they don't give credibility for me that Paul had this special experience with a higher being. It might seem like these things add likelihood, but they might also just be embellishments to a story. And 2) we know how easily people spread "spam", without investigating its foundation. It's too important in light of the issues we argue over today (like the normality of homosexuality across many forms of life including humans) to just say that your proof is from the words written by Paul or anyone else during that time. We don't need any more Biblical self-references. Where is the credible proof? So on this point, and I know you said you would use the weekend, you have not yet provided any credible proof of a higher being involved in Paul's "transforming experience". Meanwhile you seem to have no problem passing judgment on people based on things that have little to no foundation.

      One thing further on this, fred. Don't try to throw it on me to prove something. First of all I am not claiming a particular truth about the situation, I am merely refuting one of the many assumed truths followed by Christians for lack of evidence. Therefore, if you don't agree with my assertion, the onus is on you to either agree with my assertion, or for you to provide that evidence to support why you disagree with my assertion.

      I did not include this in my original post, but I do take issue with your statement: "Clearly there is a lot of abuse in the gay community. The biggest abuse is in the form of brainwashing that claims this is normal behavior."

      I did include your statement (which I also take issue with): "I just wanted to make sure vulnerable people are not mislead or pressured into thinking that they do not have a choice about what they do with their orientation." (which you did not address in your last reply)

      In both of these statements, you are making assumptions about choice that I don't buy. I know it's an open issue, but everything I have read on the issue indicates that it is highly suspected that there is no choice involved – even if not proven yet. So if you want to call this your opinion, then fine, but if you think your opinion on this issue of choice should be seen as anything credible, then you need to support those statements with something concrete. I doubt you'll come up with much, outside of your religion.

      October 17, 2012 at 12:15 am |
    • fred

      mamma k
      Getting back to Paul you do not count as credible the various accounts by various eye witnesses as to Christ walking about after the crucifixion. Luke the doctor and historian docu-mented in acts the history of the Church which included Paul. What do we really have then that anyone saw the resurrected Jesus when you toss out all the eye witness accounts? We cannot bring Jesus down so you can give him the once over and approve or disapprove of the vision you see. What do those accounts say? We have a list of witnesses to Jesus and Jesus telling the apostles wait for the power of the Holy Spirit that will come after I ascend to my Father. Now, when that power came these apostles began to heal and do all sorts of miraculous signs. Paul did not see Jesus as these others and I think only Paul witnessed that he saw Jesus. Paul had a conversion experience which was witnessed by others however. That conversion experience transformed Paul from a strict Jew who killed Christians that witnessed the miracles and presence of Christ into a strong believer.
      Here is the only the proof I know that this is a true witness. What happened to Paul happened to me in much the same way. I had a conversion experience that totally transformed my life into a believer. Jesus poured the truth of the Gospels into my being and I was born again. I can personally attest to the power of the Holy Spirit guiding and sanctifying the believer. This same conversion experience happens millions of times a year close to the same manner. I have personally witnessed many myself. What Jesus said would happen did happen to Paul and is repeated right up to this day in others just as it happened in Acts during the start of the Church.
      That is the only proof of Paul’s vision we have had in 2,000 years outside of the 20,000 manuscripts.

      October 17, 2012 at 1:57 am |
    • mama k

      First fred, regarding your "abuse in the community as in; drugs, alcohol, unprotected $ex, etc." statement, I'm still waiting to hear how you plan to support your claim that drugs and alcohol abuse are more prevalent in the gay community. Maybe you missed a couple of my paragraphs from my last reply.

      Regarding Paul,
      fred wrote a bunch of stuff about the resurrection which doesn't answer my question, but then,

      fred wrote: "Paul did not see Jesus as these others and I think only Paul witnessed that he saw Jesus."
      That's my point. He was the only one. And so the words there are his words about something only he saw.
      That's the same case with Joseph Smith.

      And you go on to talk about how it changed him and how you were changed. As I said, I don't necessarily refute that if all this was true, that people, including Paul were affected and truly believed. But, IMHO, there is no credible evidence that any higher being was involved that Paul saw. And I'm sure you can give no credible proof of a higher being today.

      If someone found manuscripts that are older than the Bible tomorrow in Egypt where one of the Pharaohs writes that he alone witnessed the Sun god, would you believe it? Why or why not? If they find later more surrounding, supporting evidence (in the way of well-documented eye-witness accounts of visitation) of that Sun god in the written descriptions from others around the same time, would that sway you to then believe the Pharaoh's account that he alone witnessed a real higher being – a Sun god?

      It's not much to go on to use as a basis for judging people when it's so unfounded and untrustworthy. That's another of my points. This is one of the big problems of Christianity, IMHO.

      October 17, 2012 at 10:47 am |
    • myweightinwords

      Hi again fred,

      =>I hope I am not doing that unintentionally. My goal is to reveal the love of God which is almost impossible to a community that thinks the Bible is hate speech.

      Many things in the bible can in fact be considered hate speech, depending on how they are used. For example, when a church group tract bombed my house with the verse "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" stamped in red on every single tract (and I'm talking about hundreds of them), the police considered that hate speech and a threat.

      This is because people take the cultural dictates of a society that has been gone for more than 2000 years and try to rip out pieces of it to govern the lives of people living in our society. It doesn't fit. It never will. The "law" written in the old testament of the bible is NOT APPLICABLE to the world we live in.

      It was written for a people in another age, governed by a theocracy (or what we would call a theocracy today). We are not a theocracy, we aren't even all the same faith, following the same god.

      =>you got me there. The Bible does leave that impression. If we do not need saving from our sins we do not need a savior.

      Exactly my point. There is so much bound up in this little statement. The need to believe that a singular god exists. The need to believe that sin exists. The need to believe that a single act of sin is sufficient to remove us from that singular god's favor. The need to believe that there is only one means to remedy the situation.

      How then can you possibly expect a person who lives a good life, who is loving and faithful to his lifelong partner to just accept that he is sinful and dirty, not because he's killed or raed or abused or stolen...but because he has LOVED?

      As human we continue to sin so I cannot get around the obvious.

      This you believe. Personally, I can not conceive an act I have ever committed so heinous as to be deserving of hell. Certainly not the fact that I do not believe in your version of god. Not when I wanted desperately to continue to believe, not when I prayed for the doubt and disbelief to be taken away.

      On the other hand perhaps for me I need that constant reminder to do what is right and good. I do not see a downside when doing what is right and good before God.

      If you need that, and it helps you, that's fine. However, just because YOU do, doesn't mean that it is right and good for anyone else. Your faith is yours. Between you and the god(s) you choose. Just as mine is between me and mine.

      The hangover from the Old Testament “dirty” in need of cleansing theme has carried over into today. This was an old symbolic picture language that does not translate culturally.

      Again, part of my point. The whole concept of bloodshed as a cleansing tool is archaic. The notion that sacrifice can absolve anything is outdated and wrong...not to mention disturbing and disgusting.

      The att-itude of our soul should be inclined towards a desire for goodness compared with an evil disposition. Cain vs Able or the two criminals on the cross with Christ in Luke 23:39-43 are simple examples of goodness vs evil.

      One can be a good person, and live a life of service to others without following your idea of god. Or even agreeing with you on every aspect of what "good" means. One can also believe in your god, follow the bible as it is written and be an evil, twisted person.

      =>God as punctuated by Christs suffering is offended by what we do to each other and ourselves when we reject the way God would have us live.

      And I am offended by so many parts of that idea that I'm not sure where to begin.

      Thank you for your other points they helped me sort a few things out.

      As always, I am pleased to engage in civil discourse, and to be of service.

      October 17, 2012 at 11:12 am |
    • fred

      myweightinwords

      Goday and thanks for the weighty words !

      “Many things in the bible can in fact be considered hate speech”
      =>yes, the Bible itself even confirms this: For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and att-itudes of the heart.

      Now, those who put a stamp on the tract had their thoughts and att-itudes revealed. I doubt they recognized it then but I have confronted a few in similar cases who were shocked at what had taken over them. We love to say hate the sin and love the sinner because it is biblical. The problem is hate is strong negative emotion that spoils the good around it. The Bible says we are to correct our brother that goes astray. The confusion is that verse was intended for our brothers and sisters in our heavenly family (while alive it means those in our close circle attending our church of like faith). We are to witness the Gospel to the whole world which is the love of Christ not the example Paul made of the ho-mo$exual to the people of Corinth.
      On the other hand when (as in my case) someone who rejected the notion of God is suddenly convicted by the Word of God they recognize what sin looks like to a Loving Holy God. In my case I did not need a Christian giving me a list of my sins as they were suddenly self evident to my soul.

      “The "law" written in the old testament of the bible is NOT APPLICABLE to the world we live in. It was written for a people in another age,”
      =>typically yes and there is confusion as to which laws were specific to a people and time and which are the laws that address all people for all times. A typical example would be offering your best up to God. There are laws that specify offering of 10% t-ithe, rams, unspotted lambs etc. We miss the boat (Noah’s Ark) when we fail to see the difference between the offering of Cain and the offering of Able. It had nothing to do with what was offered as the att-itude of heart was fully revealed.

      “How then can you possibly expect a person who lives a good life, who is loving and faithful to his lifelong partner to just accept that he is sinful and dirty, not because he's killed or raed or abused or stolen...but because he has LOVED?”
      =>this is not the issue as it puts the cart before the horse. Take careful note that Jesus never called that which was lovely or loving as being sinful or dirty. Without the presence of God in your life it is impossible to reconcile what is pleasing to God with anything we do in life.

      Since my conversion I have been hit hard in several areas in particular God allowing pain and suffering. I have all the canned responses however there are times when it takes long periods of prayer before doubt and disbelief are removed. This I note because at those times I do not sense the presence of God in my life. It is a welcome relief when doubt lifts. I cannot even remember how many hundreds if not thousands of times I have prayed for forgiveness for my unbelief. Sometimes I fear I am heading off into that negative guilt ridden place where the faith of Martin Luther was born. God is faithful even though I am not so I just hang in there as long as it takes.

      “The notion that sacrifice can absolve anything is outdated and wrong...not to mention disturbing and disgusting.”
      =>in the Old Testament it was a reminder tool that death (separation) was the penalty for sin and hope was in the atonement of the sacrifice by the perfect lamb. Yeh, life was in the blood, not so disturbing years ago just excellent symbolism that a barbaric peoples could understand. 2,000 years ago we had the final atonement of the perfect lamb. Here we see how disturbing and disgusting sin is to God as Christ took the sins of the world upon himself and said it is finished. No more sacrifice as since then we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within believers and keep us from separation.

      “And I am offended by so many parts of that idea that I'm not sure where to begin.”
      =>right, you suggested in your prior reply that you would not believe in a god that was offended by sin. Just how offensive was what sinful men did to an innocent Christ? A picture is worth a thousand words and this is about as offensive as it gets. Sin is not a pretty picture by any standards.

      October 17, 2012 at 6:06 pm |
    • Robert

      "We love to say hate the sin and love the sinner because it is biblical."

      Fred, please provide the exact scripture where it states this since we all know that it was Gandhi who made this statement and he was Hindu.

      October 18, 2012 at 10:43 am |
    • myweightinwords

      Greetings Fred,

      I hope this Thursday is treating you well.

      =>yes, the Bible itself even confirms this: For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and att-itudes of the heart.

      No, to me, that particular statement does not define hate speech. Yet, I fully believe that much of the bible is hateful, and is used by modern Christians to speak hate while hiding behind "faith".

      Now, those who put a stamp on the tract had their thoughts and att-itudes revealed. I doubt they recognized it then but I have confronted a few in similar cases who were shocked at what had taken over them. We love to say hate the sin and love the sinner because it is biblical.

      That is not what I take away from reading the bible. The old testament clearly teaches that the sinner is to be punished. Jesus on the other hand told you to even love your enemies. No where does either of them say to hate the sin, but love the sinner. It is read that way by some and I've heard the phrase ad nauseum...so much so that I don't think it's humanly possible to do.

      The problem is hate is strong negative emotion that spoils the good around it.

      Hate is a festering sore that spreads its infection and takes over anything and everything it touches. It is more infectious than influenza and it has a deadly outcome.

      The Bible says we are to correct our brother that goes astray. The confusion is that verse was intended for our brothers and sisters in our heavenly family (while alive it means those in our close circle attending our church of like faith).

      The bible also tells you to see to your own issues before you try to help your brethren with theirs, does it not? Doesn't that imply that in fact your attention should be on your own need for salvation rather than any one else?

      We are to witness the Gospel to the whole world which is the love of Christ not the example Paul made of the ho-mo$exual to the people of Corinth.

      I've seen love in action. Sometimes I've even seen it come from those who claim Christ. I disagree with a lot of Christians, and with a lot of what is taught as the Christian faith/religion. I can never disagree with true acts of love, nor with the faith that drives someone to act on that love.

      On the other hand when (as in my case) someone who rejected the notion of God is suddenly convicted by the Word of God they recognize what sin looks like to a Loving Holy God. In my case I did not need a Christian giving me a list of my sins as they were suddenly self evident to my soul.

      I had an epiphany that changed my life when I was in my twenties. It was extraordinary and terrifying and came after many long months, well over a year, of soul searching, prayer and study. It has brought me much peace and joy and love.

      I hope the same is true of yours, even if they lead us in different directions theologically.

      =>typically yes and there is confusion as to which laws were specific to a people and time and which are the laws that address all people for all times.

      I have no confusion. It's all meant for another time, another place, another people.

      A typical example would be offering your best up to God. There are laws that specify offering of 10% t-ithe, rams, unspotted lambs etc. We miss the boat (Noah’s Ark) when we fail to see the difference between the offering of Cain and the offering of Able. It had nothing to do with what was offered as the att-itude of heart was fully revealed.

      My gods would be offended if I gave them less than my best too. Not that they demand blood sacrifice as a means of forgiveness for anything.

      =>this is not the issue as it puts the cart before the horse.

      And yet, this IS the issue. All over the country you have preachers and ministers and others who make it very clear that it people who live good, virtuous lives, but love someone of the same gender and choose to spend their lives with that person, will burn in hell for eternity because of who they love.

      Take careful note that Jesus never called that which was lovely or loving as being sinful or dirty.

      Nor did he condemn gay people. He had nothing to say about Americans either. Or many other groups of people.

      The man we call Jesus lived in a culture we do not have a full understanding of, and spoke to the people of that time and place about things that they understood. Homosexuality as it is known and understood today would be as foreign to them as their lives would be to us.

      Without the presence of God in your life it is impossible to reconcile what is pleasing to God with anything we do in life.

      I would think that loving someone with all of your heart would be pleasing to any god worth knowing.

      Since my conversion I have been hit hard in several areas in particular God allowing pain and suffering.

      In my experience, all believers in any god struggle with this concept...except for those who happily embrace their god causing the pain and suffering. Those are people I choose to avoid.

      I have all the canned responses however there are times when it takes long periods of prayer before doubt and disbelief are removed. This I note because at those times I do not sense the presence of God in my life. It is a welcome relief when doubt lifts.

      For me, that doubt never did lift (well, on the subject of pain and suffering, plus many more). It wasn't until I walked away and got my bearings outside of that faith that I began to be able to reconcile what I believed and what I saw in the world around me.

      I cannot even remember how many hundreds if not thousands of times I have prayed for forgiveness for my unbelief.

      Why should you need forgiveness for something you can not control? Did you choose unbelief? Or did it come over you unbidden? Why should you be cast out for a thing which you have no power over? What kind of god throws away someone who tries so hard?

      =>in the Old Testament it was a reminder tool that death (separation) was the penalty for sin and hope was in the atonement of the sacrifice by the perfect lamb.

      And we come back to the notion that any action taken on this earth is enough to condemn someone.

      Yeh, life was in the blood, not so disturbing years ago just excellent symbolism that a barbaric peoples could understand.

      It isn't so much the blood as it is the symbolism...the idea behind it, the NEED for it that I find disturbing.

      2,000 years ago we had the final atonement of the perfect lamb. Here we see how disturbing and disgusting sin is to God as Christ took the sins of the world upon himself and said it is finished. No more sacrifice as since then we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within believers and keep us from separation.

      I disagree on a fundamental level with the notion of substitutionary atonement.

      =>right, you suggested in your prior reply that you would not believe in a god that was offended by sin. Just how offensive was what sinful men did to an innocent Christ? A picture is worth a thousand words and this is about as offensive as it gets. Sin is not a pretty picture by any standards.

      Provided one takes the story of Christ as true in all regards, outside of the spiritual. By which I mean, if the man lived and was arrested and executed in the manner described, one does not need to look far for an understanding. Religion and politics combined with a barbaric system and crowd-think can lead to truly heinous and horrific acts.

      Does this mean that any one man is worthy of the same or worse? True love is unconditional love. Any god who is not capable of that, particularly for his own creation, is not a god worthy of adoration, in my opinion.

      October 18, 2012 at 12:12 pm |
    • fred

      myweightinwords

      You were'nt kidding about the weighty words! Now, let's see if gets past the filter:

      “Yet, I fully believe that much of the bible is hateful, and is used by modern Christians to speak hate while hiding behind "faith". “
      =>the Bible tells it like it is. Do you not see that much of mankind is hateful? Christians do it, the Sanhedrin of Jesus day did it, the Babylonians, Asryians, Moabites……all the way back to Moses and perhaps before. Is this not simply the condition of man with the Bible throwing the red flag generation after generation?

      “The old testament clearly teaches that the sinner is to be punished.”
      =>the consequence of sin is death compared to the Love of God which is life. Contrasts, the Bible paints contrasts so we get the picture. You are leaving out the last part which is Gods love. How else would you possibly paint the picture of a savior if there was nothing to be saved from? Jesus makes this point clear when responding to an Old Testament verse “eye for an eye” then comments but I say “love you enemy”.

      “No where does either of them say to hate the sin, but love the sinner.”
      =>yes, I meant to imply we love to make such statements but hate overshadows what we try.

      “The bible also tells you to see to your own issues before you try to help your brethren with theirs, does it not?”
      =>yes and it is not easy to instruct children why God says one thing while the media and government say the opposite. We really do not live in a world where Christians stay in their bedrooms and non believers stay in their bedrooms.

      “Doesn't that imply that in fact your attention should be on your own need for salvation rather than any one else?”
      =>Yep, except for those verses that say we are to tell others of Christ and warn the world of sin.

      “I hope the same is true of yours, even if they lead us in different directions theologically.”
      =>if what Jesus said has any truth how can there be different directions. Jesus spoke of unity through Christ. Unity does not mean we walk in lock step but that we have the same disposition of the soul. That is an att-itude like Christ.

      “I have no confusion. It's all meant for another time, another place, another people. “
      =>no, there is a distinct pattern throughout where key points are repeated over and over in different ways to different people and cultures. As to what is good and what is evil there has been no change in direction or att-itude. Why do think this generation is unique from all the thousands that have passed before?

      “All over the country you have preachers and ministers and others who make it very clear that it people who live good, virtuous lives, but love someone of the same gender and choose to spend their lives with that person, will burn in hell for eternity because of who they love.”
      =>clearly living good, virtuous lives is not a ticket to Paradise according to the Bible nor is loving someone of the same gender a ticket to hell. This is why we are warned not to judge or treat others different than we want ourselves to be treated. It is through Christ that any of us are saved and the Bible is all about the eternal soul of man. That soul is here for a purpose and nothing can get in the way of soul that belongs with God. A soul that does not really belong with God will seek ways to move away from the source that draws it near. There is a point in time when God stops drawing one near.

      “Nor did he condemn gay people. He had nothing to say about Americans either. Or many other groups of people.”
      =>because that was not the purpose of Gods revelation in Jesus.

      “Hom-o$exuality as it is known and understood today would be as foreign to them as their lives would be to us.”
      =>no, the Greek pederasty was in full swing and the Romans were doing what Romans were known for. It may not have been prevalent within the religious community itself due to stoning and being cast out. Jesus addressed the hypocrisy of the people as to looking down at sinners not the sin of adultery vs. hom-mo$exuality or other sins in particular. Adultery was more common place among the hypocrites so it made a better example. Don't forget Jesus said if you think about another with lust you are guilty.

      “I would think that loving someone with all of your heart would be pleasing to any god worth knowing.”
      =>it is not a negative attribute but one must love God with all your heart. This means more than family and friends. The interesting thing is that when you love God first and formost everyone falls into the same equality bucket. This is why it is perfect unity with God and everyone.

      “those who happily embrace their god causing the pain and suffering. Those are people I choose to avoid.”
      =>it is not a happy embrace of pain just the view of the love that follows childbirth.

      “It wasn't until I walked away and got my bearings outside of that faith that I began to be able to reconcile what I believed and what I saw in the world around me.”
      =>my only reconciliation is that God will wipe away every tear and make all things new. This combined with “all things work for the good in those who believe in Christ”

      “What kind of god throws away someone who tries so hard?”
      =>it is God who is faithful and eventually God always comes through. “I will not look away from a broken and contrite heart”

      “It isn't so much the blood as it is the symbolism...the idea behind it, the NEED for it that I find disturbing.”
      =>if you are asking me why God didn’t come up with a plan better than the one we observe I do not have a clue. At the same time I cannot think of any other way to allow a soul to fully express its desire. This full expression allows the soul to completely understand the judgment it has brought upon itself.

      “True love is unconditional love. Any god who is not capable of that, particularly for his own creation, is not a god worthy of adoration, in my opinion.”
      =>Gods love is unconditional and regardless of what you have done you are embraced (recall the prodigal son story) when you come to God and ask for forgiveness. When you reject God unconditional love requires God not hold that soul against its will. God can of course save anyone or reject anyone and I am confident God is better equipped than I am to do that.

      October 18, 2012 at 6:55 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh, shove it, Chard.

      October 18, 2012 at 6:57 pm |
  2. JP

    Is homosexuality a sin?

    Self-indulgence is a sin. But the relationship of two people of the same sex may or may not be self-indulgent.

    Abusing the neighbor is a sin. But the exploration of relationships among homosexuals as they search for partners, evaluate their existing formative relationships, and relate to each other may or may not be abusive.

    Disobeying what God commands in the Bible is a sin. But, we have biblically-derived criteria for assessing and applying specific commands by reading them against larger themes.
    Turning your back on God is a sin. Homosexuals are often among those who have turned their back on the church, and may be sinning because they also rejected the God they found in church. The church needs to be in mission to homosexuals with the message of Jesus and who God really is.

    Yielding to your passions, even celebrating them is a sin. Homosexuals do include those who have done this. But it is not an inherent aspect of being gay.

    Since we see people who have dedicated themselves to God, and for whom their gay sexual life is integrated into that decision and we see that their sexuality does not draw them away from church we must conclude that being and living gay is not a behavior in and of itself that produces pain to the neighbor and leads one away from God.

    By the criteria the scripture sets for us for what is godly life, and by the reasoning scripture asks us to employ, homosexuality cannot be described as against God’s law.

    If this seems like a rather quiet sort of justification for homosexuality, then perhaps it is because the grand clichés of this debate have been shouted at us for too long. But look at the Bible: it's demands and vision cut across all categories, not staying on the surface but penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart, rejecting all forms of self–justification, all forms of attack on the "other" and all forms of escape from God's assessment of our behavior. How on earth could we have ever thought that a series of flat rules was all God wanted to tell us on morality?

    October 16, 2012 at 1:13 pm |
  3. YeahRight

    " Anyone who says so is themselves a subject of perversion."

    This is how uneducated this poster is when it comes to this subject. They are now trying to imply that the hundred of thousands of experts in this country that disagree with them are perverse. LMAO!

    Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

    October 16, 2012 at 1:10 pm |
  4. Lorraine

    truthprevail, i have gay loved ones, no problem, that's not it, it is what YHWH says, His word, and remember we must substantiate the facts of our own American history now. We can't just pick, and choose here, the historical validation is the proof. Nehemiah the prophet, and Artaxerxes the king of Persia, of 465bce, are in the same time, and were making our history, look it up, its a good thing to know ones' history. YHWH Bless.

    October 16, 2012 at 12:47 pm |
  5. Bob

    Hey did you guys see this????? pretty good dont you think??
    Salvatore
    As my doctor was examining me In the bent over position with his finger in my butt for my prostate exam, I couldn't help but think not only how violated but how much it hurt and the pressure. This was a finger inserted for a medical exam, but this is the pinnacle of a gay relationship and supposed to feel good? How does bonding and intimacy and what the Bible calls loving and normal relationship get replaced in these peoples minds with what is unclean, embarrassing and abusing. This is a orifice that feces comes out of and this is a normal relationship for some? Stinky, smelly, hurting and this is what a normal relationship to gays is. This kind of physical intimacy is perversion. The sweat and smells of a man instead of a woman abusing you, there is no acceptable gay physical relationship in the Bible. Anyone who says so is themselves a subject of perversion.

    October 16, 2012 at 12:41 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      What's the matter? Is the feces-oriented point of view not getting enough attention without being reposted?

      October 16, 2012 at 12:46 pm |
    • .

      "Ronald Regonzo" who degenerates to:
      "truth be told" degenerates to:
      "The Truth" degenerates to:
      "Atheism is not healthy ..." degenerates to:
      "Dodney Rangerfield" degenerates to:
      "tina" degenerates to:
      "captain america" degenerates to:
      "Atheist Hunter" degenerates to:
      "Anybody know how to read? " degenerates to:
      "just sayin" degenerates to:
      "Kindness" degenerates to:
      "Chad" degenerates to
      "Bob" degenerates to
      "nope" degenerates to:
      "2357" degenerates to:
      "WOW" degenerates to:
      "fred" degenerates to:
      "!" degenerates to:
      "pervert alert"

      This troll is not a christian:..

      October 16, 2012 at 1:08 pm |
    • mama k

      Why are you cutting and pasting something from just below? Don't you have any original thoughts?
      If you did, you would see this for what it is – rubbish.

      October 16, 2012 at 1:20 pm |
    • Bbo

      I just never thought about it in that way, I like what he said about the way a woman was made naturally to accept the males parts good point I thought. Honestly hes right in the way he describes the way God made man and women it kind of clarifies that God made them that way purposely and its natural and science goes along with it plus that is the way the Bible says is right. So it kind of takes the ambiguity out of what the Bible says about h0mo intercourse

      October 16, 2012 at 1:22 pm |
    • OneTruth

      And yet your wife says you like doing that to her.

      October 16, 2012 at 1:28 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Hi Bob,

      I just never thought about it in that way, I like what he said about the way a woman was made naturally to accept the males parts.

      As I said to Sal, a woman has three orifices that are made in the right shapes/places to offer a man pleasure. A man has only two. If the man's anus was not built for such a thing, why is the prostate located there?

      good point I thought.

      Not particularly.

      Honestly hes right in the way he describes the way God made man and women

      Only if you already believe that.

      it kind of clarifies that God made them that way purposely and its natural and science goes along with it plus that is the way the Bible says is right.

      Science does not "go along with it".

      So it kind of takes the ambiguity out of what the Bible says about h0mo intercourse

      The bible talks about sexual service dedicated to pagan gods and it talks about proititution...but most of those can be traced to the time and place as reasons. It has less to do with god and more to do with societal taboo of the Jewish people.

      October 16, 2012 at 2:09 pm |
  6. Lorraine

    LOL, COWARDS, CNN HA!

    October 16, 2012 at 12:03 pm |
    • === o ===

      The only kind of "trickle-down" that actually works:

      "Salvatore" denerates to:
      "Douglas" degenerates to:
      "pervert alert" degenerates to:
      "Taskmaster" degenerates to:
      "Ronald Regonzo" degenerates to:
      "Lorraine degenerates to:
      "truth be told" degenerates to:
      "Atheism is not healthy ..." degenerates to:
      "tina" degenerates to:
      "captain america" degenerates to:
      "just sayin" degenerates to:
      "nope" degenerates to:
      "WOW" degenerates to:
      "!" degenerates to:
      and many other names, but of course I prefer to refer to this extreme homophobe as
      the disgruntled Evangelical Fortune Cookie Co. writer boot camp flunkie.

      October 16, 2012 at 12:07 pm |
  7. John

    In days gone by, it was reasonable for Christians not to question conventional wisdom about the Bible. Because everyone used the Bible to justify slavery, for instance, Christians were OK with believing that some of their fellow human beings were just another species of farm animal they rightfully owned. Later, we Christians were entirely comfortable using the Bible to justify the atrocious idea that women are second-class citizens too simple-minded to be trusted with the vote.

    And up until the Internet made readily available all kinds of previously inaccessible knowledge and information, we could be excused for believing that the Bible indisputably states that God considers homosexual love a moral abomination.

    Today, however, anyone who can read, or simply watch YouTube videos, is forced to acknowledge the absolute credibility of the universe of scholarship, and the reasoning based upon it which unequivocally proves that the Bible does not, in fact, oblige Christians to believe that homosexual love, in and of itself, is necessarily any less moral than is heterosexual love.

    That closet door is now swung wide open. The truth of the matter is now there for anyone to behold.

    Christians today who take seriously the search for truth must admit that the old axiom that homosexuality is a sin has been forever reduced in status from objective truth to subjective opinion. From fact to belief, from beyond question to unquestionably dubious.

    Believing that homosexual love is a condemnable sin, in other words; is now a choice one must make.

    And what Christian - what person at all? - would choose ignorant condemnation over enlightened love?

    October 16, 2012 at 11:49 am |
  8. Bob

    Sorry guys its not me, Its a bit vulgar but correct.

    October 16, 2012 at 11:47 am |
    • midwest rail

      Nice try, Pigeon Chess Salvatore.

      October 16, 2012 at 11:49 am |
    • myweightinwords

      midwest rail,

      I don't know, the new guy has much better command of the English language and sentence structure than Bob does. I can actually understand everything the new guy says. Bob often leaves me wondering what it is his saying.

      October 16, 2012 at 12:00 pm |
    • midwest rail

      When he wished, Bob could articulate his arrogance and hatred just fine. The chances that there is another human as obsessed with gay s*ex as Bob is AND misspells the same slang word for psychologists is about nil. No, it's Bob.

      October 16, 2012 at 12:05 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      midwest rail,

      I found that most of the time when Bob's sentence structure was solid, he was copying and pasting from some website.

      They may actually be the same person, though Sal seems more hung up on human excrement and the anus than he is on anything else.

      October 16, 2012 at 12:27 pm |
  9. YeahRight

    "The only supposed science that is with gays is the physcos themselves otherwise there is no support for gays in science'

    That's why hundred of thousands of experts in this country disagree with you. LMAO!

    Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

    Social science has shown that the concerns often raised about children of lesbian and gay parents—concerns that are generally grounded in prejudice against and stereotypes about gay people—are unfounded. Overall, the research indicates that the children of lesbian and gay parents do not differ from the children of heterosexual parents in their development, adjustment, or overall well-being.

    October 16, 2012 at 11:14 am |
    • mama k

      True. Homosexuality exists naturally all across nature. I see this "truth be told / "pervert alert" (or whoever he is), is very homophobic. Maybe he had a bad experience when he was young. But whatever the case is, he is obviously afraid, deluded and probably should see a doctor about it.

      October 16, 2012 at 11:26 am |
  10. Erik

    " The only supposed science that is with gays is the physcos themselves otherwise there is no support for gays in science"

    Being gay is not a choice science, in fact, is actually not in dispute on this matter.

    All major medical professional organizations concur that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed, from gay to straight or otherwise. The American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and European Psychological, Psychiatric, and Medical Associations all agree with this, as does the World Health Organization and the medical organizations of Japan, China, and most recently, Thailand. Furthermore, attempts to change one's sexual orientation can be psychologically damaging, and cause great inner turmoil and depression, especially for Christian gays and lesbians.

    Reparative therapy, also called conversion therapy or reorientation therapy, "counsels" LGBT persons to pray fervently and study Bible verses, often utilizing 12-step techniques that are used to treat sexual addictions or trauma. Such Christian councilors are pathologizing homosexuality, which is not a pathology but is a sexual orientation. Psychologically, that's very dangerous territory to tread on. All of the above-mentioned medical professional organizations, in addition to the American and European Counseling Associations, stand strongly opposed to any form of reparative therapy.

    In my home country, Norway, reparative therapy is officially considered to be ethical malpractice. But there are many countries that do not regulate the practice, and many others that remain largely silent and even passively supportive of it (such as the Philippines). Groups that operate such "therapy" in the Philippines are the Evangelical Bagong Pag-asa, and the Catholic Courage Philippines.

    The scientific evidence of the innateness of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism is overwhelming, and more peer-reviewed studies which bolster this fact are being added all the time. Science has long regarded sexual orientation – and that's all sexual orientations, including heterosexuality – as a phenotype. Simply put, a phenotype is an observable set of properties that varies among individuals and is deeply rooted in biology. For the scientific community, the role of genetics in sexuality is about as "disputable" as the role of evolution in biology.

    On the second point, that there is no conclusion that there is a "gay gene," they are right. No so-called gay gene has been found, and it's highly unlikely that one ever will. This is where conservative Christians and Muslims quickly say "See, I told you so! There's no gay gene, so being gay is a choice!"

    Take this interesting paragraph I found on an Evangelical website: "The attempt to prove that homosexuality is determined biologically has been dealt a knockout punch. An American Psychological Association publication includes an admission that there's no homosexual "gene" – meaning it's not likely that homosexuals are 'born that way.'"

    But that's not at all what it means, and it seems Evangelicals are plucking out stand-alone phrases from scientific reports and removing them from their context. This is known in academia as the fallacy of suppressed evidence. Interestingly, this is also what they have a habit of doing with verses from the Bible.

    This idea of sexuality being a choice is such a bizarre notion to me as a man of science. Many of these reparative "therapists" are basing this concept on a random Bible verse or two. When you hold those up against the mountain of scientific research that has been conducted, peer-reviewed, and then peer-reviewed again, it absolutely holds no water. A person's sexuality – whether heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual – is a very deep biological piece of who that person is as an individual.

    The fact that a so-called "gay gene" has not been discovered does not mean that homosexuality is not genetic in its causation. This is understandably something that can seem a bit strange to those who have not been educated in fields of science and advanced biology, and it is also why people who are not scientists ought not try to explain the processes in simple black-and-white terms. There is no gay gene, but there is also no "height gene" or "skin tone gene" or "left-handed gene." These, like sexuality, have a heritable aspect, but no one dominant gene is responsible for them.

    Many genes, working in sync, contribute to the phenotype and therefore do have a role in sexual orientation. In many animal model systems, for example, the precise genes involved in sexual partner selection have been identified, and their neuro-biochemical pathways have been worked out in great detail. A great number of these mechanisms have been preserved evolutionarily in humans, just as they are for every other behavioral trait we know (including heterosexuality).

    Furthermore, there are many biologic traits which are not specifically genetic but are biologic nonetheless. These traits are rooted in hormonal influences, contributed especially during the early stages of fetal development. This too is indisputable and based on extensive peer-reviewed research the world over. Such prenatal hormonal influences are not genetic per se, but are inborn, natural, and biologic nevertheless.

    Having said that, in the realm of legal rights, partnership rights, and anti-discrimination protections, the gay gene vs. choice debate is actually quite irrelevant. Whether or not something is a choice is not a suitable criterion for whether someone should have equal rights and protections. Religion is indisputably a choice, but that fact is a not a valid argument for discriminating against a particular religion.

    October 16, 2012 at 11:03 am |
  11. Don

    The most beautiful word in the Gospel of Jesus Christ is "whosoever." All of God's promises are intended for every human being. This includes gay men and lesbians. How tragic it is that the Christian Church has excluded and persecuted people who are homosexual! We are all created with powerful needs for personal relationships. Our quality of life depends upon the love we share with others; whether family or friends, partners or peers. Yet, lesbians and gay men facing hostile attitudes in society often are denied access to healthy relationships. Jesus Christ calls us to find ultimate meaning in life through a personal relationship with our Creator. This important spiritual union can bring healing and strength to all of our human relationships

    Biblical Interpretation and Theology also change from time to time. Approximately 150 years ago in the United States, some Christian teaching held that there was a two-fold moral order: black and white. Whites were thought to be superior to blacks, therefore blacks were to be subservient and slavery was an institution ordained by God. Clergy who supported such an abhorrent idea claimed the authority of the Bible. The conflict over slavery led to divisions which gave birth to some major Christian denominations. These same denominations, of course, do not support slavery today. Did the Bible change? No, their interpretation of the Bible did!

    Genesis 19:1-25

    Some "televangelists" carelessly proclaim that God destroyed the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of "homosexuality." Although some theologians have equated the sin of Sodom with homosexuality, a careful look at Scripture corrects such ignorance. Announcing judgment on these cities in Genesis 18, God sends two angels to Sodom, where Abraham's nephew, Lot, persuades them to stay in his home. Genesis 19 records that "all the people from every quarter" surround Lot's house demanding the release of his visitors so "we might know them." The Hebrew word for "know" in this case, yadha, usually means "have thorough knowledge of." It could also express intent to examine the visitors' credentials, or on rare occasions the term implies sexual intercourse. If the latter was the author's intended meaning, it would have been a clear case of attempted gang rape. Several observations are important.

    First, the judgment on these cities for their wickedness had been announced prior to the alleged homosexual incident. Second, all of Sodom's people participated in the assault on Lot's house; in no culture has more than a small minority of the population been homosexual. Third, Lot's offer to release his daughters suggests he knew his neighbors to have heterosexual interests. Fourth, if the issue was sexual, why did God spare Lot, who immediately commits incest with his daughters? Most importantly, why do all the other passages of Scripture referring to this account fail to raise the issue of homosexuality?

    Romans 1:24-27

    Most New Testament books, including the four Gospels, are silent on same-sex acts, and Paul is the only author who makes any reference to the subject. The most negative statement by Paul regarding same-sex acts occurs in Romans 1:24-27 where, in the context of a larger argument on the need of all people for the gospel of Jesus Christ, certain homosexual behavior is given as an example of the "uncleanness" of idolatrous Gentiles.

    This raises the question: Does this passage refer to all homosexual acts, or to certain homosexual behavior known to Paul's readers? The book of Romans was written to Jewish and Gentile Christians in Rome, who would have been familiar with the infamous sexual excesses of their contemporaries, especially Roman emperors. They would also have been aware of tensions in the early Church regarding Gentiles and observance of the Jewish laws, as noted in Acts 15 and Paul's letter to the Galatians. Jewish laws in Leviticus mentioned male same-sex acts in the context of idolatry.

    The homosexual practices cited in Romans 1:24-27 were believed to result from idolatry and are associated with some very serious offenses as noted in Romans 1. Taken in this larger context, it should be obvious that such acts are significantly different from loving, responsible lesbian and gay relationships seen today.

    What is "Natural"?

    Significant to Paul's discussion is the fact that these "unclean" Gentiles exchanged that which was "natural" for them, physin, in the Greek text, for something "unnatural," para physin. In Romans 11:24, God acts in an "unnatural" way, para physin, to accept the Gentiles. "Unnatural" in these passages does not refer to violation of so-called laws of nature, but rather implies action contradicting one's own nature. In view of this, we should observe that it is "unnatural," para physin, for a person today with a lesbian or gay sexual orientation to attempt living a heterosexual lifestyle.

    I Corinthians 6:9

    Any consideration of New Testament statements on same-sex acts must carefully view the social context of the Greco-Roman culture in which Paul ministered. Prostitution and pederasty (sexual relationships of adult men with boys) were the most commonly known male same-sex acts. In I Corinthians 6:9, Paul condemns those who are "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind," as translated in the King James version. Unfortunately, some new translations are worse, rendering these words "homosexuals." Recent scholarship unmasks the homophobia behind such mistranslations.

    The first word – malakos, in the Greek text-which has been translated "effeminate" or "soft," most likely refers to someone who lacks discipline or moral control. The word is used elsewhere in the New Testament but never with reference to sexuality.

    The second word; Arsenokoitai, occurs once each in I Corinthians and I Timothy (1:10); but nowhere else in other literature of the period. It is derived from two Greek words, one meaning, "males" and the other "beds"; a euphemism for sexual intercourse. Other Greek words were commonly used to describe homosexual behavior but do not appear here. The larger context of I Corinthians 6 shows Paul extremely concerned with prostitution, so it is very possible he was referring to male prostitutes. But many experts now attempting to translate these words have reached a simple conclusion: their precise meaning is uncertain. Scripture Study Conclusion…No Law Against Love

    The rarity with which Paul discusses any form of same-sex behavior and the ambiguity in references attributed to him make it extremely unsound to conclude any sure position in the New Testament on homosexuality, especially in the context of loving, responsible relationships. Since any arguments must be made from silence, it is much more reliable to turn to great principles of the Gospel taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. Do not judge others, lest you be judged. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is love . . . against such there is no law. One thing is abundantly clear, as Paul stated in Galatians 5:14: "...the whole Law is fulfilled in one statement, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself".

    October 16, 2012 at 11:01 am |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      Not capable of forming an opinion of your own? What is your personal issue with gays? Your scripture means nothing when it can be invalidated by science.

      October 16, 2012 at 11:26 am |
    • captain america

      Liar prefails is an undermining bully and ne'er do well that infests these blogs like a plague ridden vermin trying to impose its evil agenda on a God centered nation. It is not one of US but pretends to be as if its opinion had some merit, it does not. No decent American would ever support the filth that comes from liar prefails, canada wouldn't want the pos if it wasn't stuck with the useless slug. There's your sign

      October 16, 2012 at 11:32 am |
    • .

      "Ronald Regonzo" who degenerates to:
      "truth be told" degenerates to:
      "The Truth" degenerates to:
      "Thinker23" degenerates to:
      "Atheism is not healthy ..." degenerates to:
      "Dodney Rangerfield" degenerates to:
      "tina" degenerates to:
      "captain america" degenerates to:
      "Atheist Hunter" degenerates to:
      "Anybody know how to read? " degenerates to:
      "just sayin" degenerates to:
      "Kindness" degenerates to:
      "Chad" degenerates to
      "Bob" degenerates to
      "nope" degenerates to:
      "2357" degenerates to:
      "WOW" degenerates to:
      "fred" degenerates to:
      "!" degenerates to:
      "pervert alert"

      This troll is not a christian..

      October 16, 2012 at 11:35 am |
    • === o ===

      The only kind of "trickle-down" that actually works:

      "Salvatore" denerates to:
      "Douglas" degenerates to:
      "pervert alert" degenerates to:
      "Taskmaster" degenerates to:
      "Ronald Regonzo" degenerates to:
      "truth be told" degenerates to:
      "Atheism is not healthy ..." degenerates to:
      "tina" degenerates to:
      "captain america" degenerates to:
      "just sayin" degenerates to:
      "nope" degenerates to:
      "WOW" degenerates to:
      "!" degenerates to:
      and many other names, but of course I prefer to refer to this extreme homophobe as
      the disgruntled Evangelical Fortune Cookie Co. writer boot camp flunkie.

      October 16, 2012 at 11:35 am |
    • milk

      @ o
      Got proof?

      October 16, 2012 at 11:38 am |
    • .

      "milk" who degenerates to:

      This troll is not a christian..

      October 16, 2012 at 11:41 am |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      Liar prefails is an undermining bully and ne'er do well that infests these blogs like a plague ridden vermin trying to impose its evil agenda on a God centered nation.

      >That would be TruthPrevails!! Wanna talk about bully-look in the mirror loser-I'm not the one telling someone not to comment on an INTERNATIONAL news site. No, no, no the USA is a SECULAR Nation, not a christian nation.

      It is not one of US but pretends to be as if its opinion had some merit, it does not.

      >Wow, you're an ignorant little troll!! I've never pretended to be a citizen of the USA.

      No decent American would ever support the filth that comes from liar prefails, canada wouldn't want the pos if it wasn't stuck with the useless slug.

      >Oh please enlighten me with what lies I have spoken? If you're referring to facts based on updated information, sucks to be you if you wish to remain in the 1st century! I can freely travel, so no I'm not stuck in my wonderful country.

      I've asked you to verify before whether or not you purchased the rights to CNN and thus the rights to say who can and can't comment, until you have purchased this news station, your opinion on who comments her doesn't matter.

      You need to get some serious mental health help for your anger and attempt to get an education while you're at it (a dictionary might be a useful tool...look up the word INTERNATIONAL).

      I'm still here and will continue to remain here. Once again, the buybull and homosexuality are not only things that are pertinent to the USA.

      October 16, 2012 at 11:45 am |
    • milk

      As suspected no proof.

      October 16, 2012 at 11:45 am |
    • milk

      As suspected no proof. Nada zip zilch

      October 16, 2012 at 11:46 am |
    • captain america

      @liar prefails
      BULL SH IT ! There's your sign.

      October 16, 2012 at 11:48 am |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      CA: Keep it up..you only make yourself look bad!

      October 16, 2012 at 11:58 am |
    • captain america

      I have a citizens right to be here, I belong here you don't. I do not presume to tell canadians how to live but still feel bad they do not have our const itutional freedoms. I do not force our viewpoint on you nor try to undermine your nation. I merely expose you as the impostor and liar you are. We are one nation under God, and your pinko influence will never change that. There's your sign

      October 16, 2012 at 7:48 pm |
  12. Janet

    "The sweat and smells of a man instead of a woman abusing you, there is no acceptable gay physical relationship in the Bible. Anyone who says so is themselves a subject of perversion."

    The Biblical condemnation of homosexuality is based on human ignorance, suspicion of those who are different, and an overwhelming concern for ensuring the survival of the people. Since the Bible regards homosexuality as a capital crime, it clearly assumes that homosexuality is a matter of free choice, a deliberate rebellion against God. We have learned from modern science that people do not choose to be gay or straight; hence it is neither logical nor moral to condemn those whose nature it is to be gay or lesbian.

    October 16, 2012 at 11:00 am |
  13. Salvatore

    Do you know why gays have been arrested at public bathrooms because if you go into a bathroom after someone has taken a dump and the smell is horrendous that is what they are used to. Perversions are predatory in nature and most young gays have had either a traumatic experience as a child or had advances by a gay at this early formative age. The only supposed science that is with gays is the physcos themselves otherwise there is no support for gays in science or in the Bible. Women have been designed with a hole in mind for intimacy with all the trimmings for child birth also. That is nature and natural that promotes a species but in nature if you are gay you die off as nature intended. Gays know this why are they having kids because they can promote a agenda by the raising of children. If you are gay you cant have a blood line why, no family. How much more natural than that does it need to get? God made man and woman made them with the appropriate equipment, So when anyone quotes that this happens in nature then know the result.

    October 16, 2012 at 9:32 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Have you struggled with your s3xual ident ity since birth or only since you were 2 last year?

      October 16, 2012 at 9:40 am |
    • Primewonk

      Why do fundiot nutters, who purposefully choose to be ignorant about science, insist on coming onto internet message boards and demonstrating that ignorance for all to see?

      October 16, 2012 at 9:42 am |
    • midwest rail

      Welcome back, Pigeon Chess Bob. No one else would misspell "psychos" ( Bob's pet term for psychologists ) as "physcos". The transparency is hilarious.

      October 16, 2012 at 10:16 am |
    • myweightinwords

      Hello Salvatore,

      Do you know why gays have been arrested at public bathrooms because if you go into a bathroom after someone has taken a dump and the smell is horrendous that is what they are used to.

      1) You seem to have an obsession with feces. I'm not sure that is healthy.
      2) Arrests are made in bathrooms because it is a room where boys already have their penis out and some can't control the urge to play with it.

      Perversions are predatory in nature and most young gays have had either a traumatic experience as a child or had advances by a gay at this early formative age.

      This is not true. On either point. One man's perversion is another man's joy. My grandfather thought masturbation was a perversion. How is masturbation predatory? For that matter, if an act is consensual, can it be predatory?

      As to your second statement, show me statistics. Most of the gay men I know have known they were gay since childhood. Very few of them had traumatic childhood experiences. Even fewer of them had traumatic sexual encounters at an early age. And, just to mix it up a bit, I know two grown men who are gay who were sexually traumatized at a young age, by women.

      The only supposed science that is with gays is the physcos themselves otherwise there is no support for gays in science or in the Bible.

      Perhaps you should look at the actual data. It tells a very different story.

      Women have been designed with a hole in mind for intimacy with all the trimmings for child birth also.

      Actually, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but women actually have three holes that are perfect for "intimacy". Only one of those also functions as a means to childbirth however. You are correct there. Men have two. And can't have babies. Now that we're done with anatomy....

      That is nature and natural that promotes a species but in nature if you are gay you die off as nature intended.

      If that were true, why do we keep having more gay people? Could it be that straight people give birth to gay people?

      Gays know this why are they having kids because they can promote a agenda by the raising of children.

      Or maybe they want to be mommies and daddies and share the love in their heart with a family? Radical thinking, I know.

      If you are gay you cant have a blood line why, no family.

      Sure you can. Have you never heard of surrogacy?

      How much more natural than that does it need to get? God made man and woman made them with the appropriate equipment, So when anyone quotes that this happens in nature then know the result.

      Actually, there are those who believe that homosexuality is nature's way of dealing with overpopulation. If a certain percentage of a species are born with an attraction to the same gender, the population is curtailed to a degree. Of course, us humans have rather circumvented that with science, allowing LGBT folk to reproduce as well.

      Personally, I'd rather see a loving gay couple raising children than a lot of the hate-filled homes that produce broken children today.

      October 16, 2012 at 10:42 am |
    • tallulah13

      Poor little Sally-troll. Anything for attention.

      October 16, 2012 at 10:49 am |
    • Jen

      I thought this was Bob! No one else on the planet is as obsessed with gay s-x as he is. Bob – I was hoping you were permanently gone off this blog because you had been hit by a bus or something – too bad :)

      October 16, 2012 at 10:52 am |
    • .

      "Ronald Regonzo" who degenerates to:
      "truth be told" degenerates to:
      "The Truth" degenerates to:
      "Atheism is not healthy ..." degenerates to:
      "Dodney Rangerfield" degenerates to:
      "tina" degenerates to:
      "captain america" degenerates to:
      "Atheist Hunter" degenerates to:
      "Anybody know how to read? " degenerates to:
      "just sayin" degenerates to:
      "Kindness" degenerates to:
      "Chad" degenerates to
      "Bob" degenerates to
      "nope" degenerates to:
      "2357" degenerates to:
      "WOW" degenerates to:
      "fred" degenerates to:
      "Salvatore" degenerates to:
      "!" degenerates to:
      "pervert alert"

      This troll is not a christian..

      October 16, 2012 at 11:06 am |
    • === o ===

      The only kind of "trickle-down" that actually works:

      "Salvatore" denerates to:
      "Douglas" degenerates to:
      "pervert alert" degenerates to:
      "Taskmaster" degenerates to:
      "Ronald Regonzo" degenerates to:
      "truth be told" degenerates to:
      "Atheism is not healthy ..." degenerates to:
      "tina" degenerates to:
      "captain america" degenerates to:
      "just sayin" degenerates to:
      "nope" degenerates to:
      "WOW" degenerates to:
      "!" degenerates to:
      and many other names, but of course I prefer to refer to this extreme homophobe as
      the disgruntled Evangelical Fortune Cookie Co. writer boot camp flunkie.

      October 16, 2012 at 11:06 am |
  14. pervert alert

    Finally more common sense enters the qu eer monologues. Qu eers the people who gave the whole world AIDS

    October 16, 2012 at 6:44 am |
    • midwest rail

      You had to know that the pervert would be here right behind the captain. A little too close behind, actually. But they like it that way.

      October 16, 2012 at 6:48 am |
    • pervert alert

      We see midwest has chosen to exercise the ass hole option again today. Qu eer that. Qu eers the people who gave the innocent world AIDS.

      October 16, 2012 at 6:52 am |
    • midwest rail

      Looked to me like that was the option you were "exercising" quite vigorously with the captain. It's ok, you two can come out now.

      October 16, 2012 at 7:01 am |
    • pervert alert

      Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, or is it that you just can't think for yourself. Qu eers the people who gave AIDS to the world.

      October 16, 2012 at 7:05 am |
    • midwest rail

      I love the inane and delusional ramblings of the pervert/captain/pickascreenname.. Perfectly representing the contemporary Christian values of arrogance, condescension, and hatred. Well done !

      October 16, 2012 at 7:11 am |
    • nope

      @mid...
      nope

      October 16, 2012 at 7:23 am |
    • midwest rail

      If I were wrong, you'd have offered more of a rebuttal. Since I'm right, you offer up the lame and tired bumper sticker mentality you're known for.

      October 16, 2012 at 7:27 am |
    • === o ===

      The only kind of "trickle-down" that actually works:

      "Salvatore" denerates to:
      "Douglas" degenerates to:
      "pervert alert" degenerates to:
      "Taskmaster" degenerates to:
      "Ronald Regonzo" degenerates to:
      "truth be told" degenerates to:
      "Atheism is not healthy ..." degenerates to:
      "tina" degenerates to:
      "captain america" degenerates to:
      "just sayin" degenerates to:
      "nope" degenerates to:
      "WOW" degenerates to:
      "!" degenerates to:
      and many other names, but of course I prefer to refer to this extreme homophobe as
      the disgruntled Evangelical Fortune Cookie Co. writer boot camp flunkie.

      October 16, 2012 at 11:02 am |
    • .

      "Qu eers the people who gave the whole world AIDS"

      Until recently, the origins of the HIV-2 virus had remained relatively unexplored. HIV-2 is thought to come from the SIV in Sooty Mangabeys rather than chimpanzees, but the crossover to humans is believed to have happened in a similar way (i.e. through the butchering and consumption of monkey meat). It is far rarer, significantly less infectious and progresses more slowly to AIDS than HIV-1. As a result, it infects far fewer people, and is mainly confined to a few countries in West Africa.

      In May 2003, a group of Belgian researchers published a report in Proceedings of the National Academy of Science. By analysing samples of the two different subtypes of HIV-2 (A and B) taken from infected individuals and SIV samples taken from sooty mangabeys, Dr Vandamme concluded that subtype A had passed into humans around 1940 and subtype B in 1945 (plus or minus 16 years or so). Her team of researchers also discovered that the virus had originated in Guinea-Bissau and that its spread was most likely precipitated by the independence war that took place in the country between 1963 and 1974 (Guinea-Bissau is a former Portuguese colony). Her theory was backed up by the fact that the first European cases of HIV-2 were discovered among Portuguese veterans of the war, many of whom had received blood transfusions or unsterile injections following injury, or had possibly had relationships with local women.

      Given the evidence we have already looked at, it seems highly likely that Africa was indeed the continent where the transfer of HIV to humans first occurred (monkeys from Asia and South America have never been found to have SIVs that could cause HIV in humans). In May 2006, the same group of researchers who first identified the Pan troglodytes troglodytes strain of SIVcpz, announced that they had narrowed down the location of this particular strain to wild chimpanzees found in the forests of Southern Cameroon . By analysing 599 samples of chimp droppings (P. T. troglodytes are a highly endangered and thus protected species that cannot be killed or captured for testing), the researchers were able to obtain 34 specimens that reacted to a standard HIV DNA test, 12 of which gave results that were virtually indistinguishable from the reactions created by human HIV. The researchers therefore concluded that the chimpanzees found in this area were highly likely the origin of both the pandemic Group M of HIV-1 and of the far rarer Group N. The exact origins of Group O however remain unknown.

      HIV Group N principally affects people living in South-central Cameroon, so it is not difficult to see how this outbreak started. Group M, the group that has caused the worldwide pandemic, was however first identified in Kinshasa, in the Democratic Repub lic of Con go. It is not entirely clear how it transferred from Cameroon to Kinshasa, but the most likely explanation is that an infected individual travelled south down the San gha river that runs through Southern Cam eroon to the River Con go and then on to Kin shasa, where the Group M epidemic probably began.

      Just as we do not know exactly who spread the virus from Cam eroon to Kin shasa, how the virus spread from Africa to America is also not entirely clear. However, recent evidence suggests that the virus may have arrived via the Cari bbean island of H aiti.

      October 16, 2012 at 11:07 am |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      pervert alert: Do you pride yourself on your bigotry and hate? You're a vile person who really needs to come out of the closet and face the real world. What has a person who is gay/lesbian ever done to personally affect your life?

      October 16, 2012 at 11:32 am |
  15. Douglas

    Salvatore,

    Good point. You can't overstate the obvious.

    There is a path to salvation for LGBTQ folk.

    Jesus defined marriage as the union of one man and one woman in the Holy Bible, Book of Matthew
    Chapter 19. Jesus also says that some will remain celibate with the understanding that those who remain
    celibate are still loved and blessed by God. Many here are intent on hijacking the Bible for their own wicked ends.
    This is a lost cause, since the word of God is eternal and their arms are way too short to box with God.

    As LGBTQ folk rise up from fornication and pursue a path forward toward celibacy, they begin to experience a sense of freedom and liberation from the chains of fornication that lock the heart and spirit in a death grip. I have seen the transformation of many through prayer and can witness to the power of the Holy Spirit in delivering LGBTQ folk from the abyss of fornication.

    There is no love or devotion in the exploration of the termination of the alimentary canal as you have described.

    The souls lost to rampant STDs through such practices now number in the millions worldwide.

    Celibacy is the answer. Extend the hand to fellowship to the lost souls and watch them rise up from fornication.

    Salvatore, thank you for speaking truth to the power. I admire your courage.

    October 16, 2012 at 12:26 am |
    • LinCA

      @Douglas

      Get a grip. There really is no need to hide your sexuality. Don't deny yourself the companionship you need just to please your imaginary friend.

      October 16, 2012 at 12:33 am |
    • === o ===

      BULL SHIT ALERT (homophobes Douglas, Salvatore, Lorraine)

      October 16, 2012 at 12:43 am |
    • mama k

      What is going on here? What kind of nonsense is this: "I have seen the transformation of many through prayer and can witness to the power of the Holy Spirit in delivering LGBTQ "

      That's crazy. If you are gay, your gay. Now if I'm almost 80 and know that, what the hell is wrong with you? Oh, I know what it is, you believe in folklore from a couple a thousand and more years ago, that's it. Tell me this – other than your empty words and your bible which is rehashed folklore, what proof do you have of your god? What proof do you have that a higher being appeared to Paul? I mean if you're going to make baseless claims about homosexuality, then we need to know the basis for all this. Where is some proof? Ah, I see, you don't have any. Which means you and your views on this subject don't really count. My goodness, these delusional nutcases have a lot of nerve.

      October 16, 2012 at 12:55 am |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      Salvatore only spoke hatred and bigotry...no truth in what the deluded waste of human flesh said at all! And you freaks call yourself good people while hating others who don't share your imaginary friend.

      October 16, 2012 at 6:37 am |
  16. Lorraine

    Bravo Salvaore, unclean perversion, 'feces area' indeed.

    October 15, 2012 at 9:58 pm |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      BIGOT

      October 16, 2012 at 6:26 am |
    • .

      "Ronald Regonzo" who degenerates to:
      "truth be told" degenerates to:
      "The Truth" degenerates to:
      "Thinker23" degenerates to:
      "Atheism is not healthy ..." degenerates to:
      "Dodney Rangerfield" degenerates to:
      "tina" degenerates to:
      "captain america" degenerates to:
      "Atheist Hunter" degenerates to:
      "Anybody know how to read? " degenerates to:
      "just sayin" degenerates to:
      "Kindness" degenerates to:
      "Lorraine" degenerates to:
      "Chad" degenerates to
      "Bob" degenerates to
      "nope" degenerates to:
      "2357" degenerates to:
      "WOW" degenerates to:
      "fred" degenerates to:
      "!" degenerates to:
      "pervert alert"

      This troll is not a christian..

      October 16, 2012 at 11:39 am |
    • milk

      @ o
      Got proof ?

      October 16, 2012 at 11:40 am |
  17. Salvatore

    As my doctor was examining me In the bent over position with his finger in my butt for my prostate exam, I couldn't help but think not only how violated but how much it hurt and the pressure. This was a finger inserted for a medical exam, but this is the pinnacle of a gay relationship and supposed to feel good? How does bonding and intimacy and what the Bible calls loving and normal relationship get replaced in these peoples minds with what is unclean, embarrassing and abusing. This is a orifice that feces comes out of and this is a normal relationship for some? Stinky, smelly, hurting and this is what a normal relationship to gays is. This kind of physical intimacy is perversion. The sweat and smells of a man instead of a woman abusing you, there is no acceptable gay physical relationship in the Bible. Anyone who says so is themselves a subject of perversion.

    October 15, 2012 at 9:39 pm |
    • Salvatore

      I am disgusted at the thought that this act being considered a loving act when a woman is designed for pleasure among other things. It accommodates the mens physiology and has the correct ph to keep germs at bay. It has points of pleasure and changes on stimulation. It has points of stimulation that accommodate and corresponds to a mans. It is designed to help in pregnancy and then keep things clean. The interior walls are designed to slough off to keep a woman healthy. There is so much more. This is normal this is what God created this is not the intestine with no nerves for feeling just special cells designed to move feces and muscle designed to stop the flow of feces at the opening. It is not the plugging up of a hole designed for one thing the elimination of waste smelly, bacterial laden bodily secretions. Men with men playing in each others waste, sounds very loving and warm doesn't it??

      October 15, 2012 at 10:07 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      I don't believe you're "disgusted" at all, you little troll. You sound positively fascinated by the whole idea.

      October 15, 2012 at 10:11 pm |
    • LinCA

      Jesus H. fucking Christ! A little obsessed with sex, aren't you? Is that all that your relationships are? Just sexual?

      You have to be a complete and utter fucking moron to not see that two men or two women can love each other, and that that love is just as real as that between a man and a woman.

      If you think your imaginary friend doesn't approve, it's time for a better imaginary friend.

      October 15, 2012 at 10:17 pm |
    • Salvatore

      Whats more there is no science especially evolution that would condone gay relationships. How did man evolve to poke each other in the butt to produce babies or how could science except for the phycos that deal in emotion only justify this disgusting, immoral, perversion that is a shame to nature itself. Yes I do like physical relations with a woman that is how God designed me and that's how I like it. So f off.

      October 15, 2012 at 10:27 pm |
    • LinCA

      @Salvatore

      Nobody gives a rats ass how you like it. I couldn't care less. Nobody is trying to get you to engage in homosexual sex. You are free to stick to women.

      Homosexuality is very common in nature. It has been observed in more than 1400 species. It is quite natural.

      If your delusion doesn't allow you to engage in, or acknowledge homosexual feelings, so be it. You don't have to. But you should have the fucking decency to allow others to do as they please. Your delusion has no bearing on what others do.

      So take your infantile beliefs and keep them to yourself.

      October 15, 2012 at 10:36 pm |
    • Salvatore

      Linny you little pos you who doesn't have the respect not to take the Lords name in vein and use it as curse want anyone to have any kind of respect for you or your perversion, you are a low life. You and your kind and your actions show the sickness that comes along with a perversion. You want to demonstrate your point with talk that its ok for animals while cursing the Lord. That is a sick,perverted thought and no wonder you cant grasp the violation of nature that you and others are trying to push. Nobody has stopped anyone from doing what they want you want to push this crap on us. Put it back in the shadows where it belongs and you wont get the truth of the disgusting nature of a gay relationship told to you like your mother should have done. You are as feces on the street that I wipe off my shoe.

      October 16, 2012 at 3:09 am |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      One can only hope that bigots like this end up with a child who is gay. Uneducated freaks who fail to see past their buybull and fail to seek evidence outside of it and only go on what they think is reality when in fact they are dead fucking wrong!! They don't give a damn who they offend as long as they think they are appeasing their imaginary friend...what a joke!! Grow up Salvatore...no-one gives a damn what you or your imaginary friend think...science has proven you wrong and that is what matters.

      October 16, 2012 at 6:32 am |
    • captain america

      Liar prefails is a useless pos from a foreign country trying to undermine American values and pretending to be an American. Tell liar prefails and and its filthy ilk to take a hike and leave US to us. There's your sign

      October 16, 2012 at 6:42 am |
    • midwest rail

      Love the inane and delusional ramblings of the captain. No one can be that batsh!t crazy w/o working at it.

      October 16, 2012 at 6:46 am |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      captain ass: What does being gay have to do with the USA? Btw: Did you finally buy CNN?....What's that...you didn't?? Didn't think so...now be a good little loser and get to school!

      October 16, 2012 at 7:24 am |
    • nope

      @liar prefails...
      nope

      October 16, 2012 at 7:26 am |
    • WASP

      @truth: i wouldn't wish a child to have to live with parents that would take them to the preacher to get "healed" or send them to one of these psycho theorpists that thinks he/she can cure being gay.
      i wouldn't want those children to grow up to become violent closet cases refusing and denying their own wants and refusing to acknowledge "they were born that way."
      it's not right for the children, so let the bigots have their straight children, save the special children, the true diamonds in the ruff, for the parents that will accept and nurture them to become fullfilled and prosperous adults.

      they don't deserve anything more than what they give forth, give it time they will die old and alone due to their pregidous.

      (to everyone else, yes i'm dislecsic........so please start correcting my spelling.) :)

      October 16, 2012 at 7:33 am |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      WASP: These are the days when I am especially thankful for having raised a child free of religious dogma. She treats everyone equally and is very accepting of her friends and my friends, who are gay/lesbian. It just sickens me that people are so closed-minded and ignorant while proclaiming to be good because they're doing what their book says. Some day maybe they'll see the reality of the fact that the book they hold as being so good is actually worse than most horror stories.

      October 16, 2012 at 9:18 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Sally, it's vain to pretend you have a clue as to what a 'vein' is or how it differs from "vane" or "vain." Or should I call your Turd Topper?

      October 16, 2012 at 9:42 am |
    • JellyBean@Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      "Turd Topper." LMAO! Hilarious dude!

      October 16, 2012 at 9:55 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Salvatore
      Straight couples engage in sodomy too, you know.
      Some women enjoy it greatly – different strokes to move the world and all.
      Plenty of hetero men enjoy prostate stimulation. Many males can be brought to orgasm through prostate massage alone.
      As for the cleanliness argument – don't forget that the Bible calls women's va/ginas unclean. According to the OT, women shouldn't even be allowed in the house when menstruating.
      Get over yourself, Salvatore. Your se.xual predilections are not shared by everybody else and it isn't for you to decide what consenting adults should do in private.

      October 16, 2012 at 10:07 am |
    • LinCA

      @Salvatore

      You are correct that I have no respect for your delusions. I can muster no respect for adults who can't shake their silly beliefs. I can't respect adults who still believe in the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus or any other mythical or imaginary being. You are free to believe whatever nonsense you want, but just because you have that right, doesn't mean it isn't nonsense.

      It is sad enough that in the 21st century that there are still adults who can't seem to shake their infantile beliefs in imaginary beings, but it is downright scary that they insist on forcing their delusions on others. It is sad that there are still adults who feel the need to deny who they are, to appease their imaginary friend, but it is downright immoral that they try to force others to hide who they are.

      Believers in the US and around the world who attempt to deny equality for gays and lesbians are immoral. Discriminating against others because of your silly beliefs makes you no better than the Taliban. But while I can understand that those beliefs are hard to get rid off in less civilized societies, nobody in the US or any western country can use that as an excuse. To hold those beliefs means that you are either incapable of rational thought, or willfully ignorant.

      Either way, whether you are ignorant by choice or not, you don't have the right to deny anyone anything just because of your infantile beliefs. Maybe it is time you grew up. And you may want to start that process by evaluating why you believe in, and worship such an evil creature.

      October 16, 2012 at 10:31 am |
  18. Lorraine

    yeahright, its legal by man's standpoint, not YHWHs, and mama kindness, the book of remembrance has chronological facts, if our own american history can vouche for David, and Solomon being in it then so is evidence of the book of remembrance the so called bible, it has these same historical facts. Who do you think wrote the book of Psalms? David, Duh that. You can't pick, and choose when there is substantiation made. And, all religions are pagan, idolatry, and not of the 'Spirit' of YHWH. From Genesis – Malachi there is no mention of any religions, 'nor anyone named jesus, or his story. If you need proof, or have the nerve, just call, 1-773-874-0325. All Praise goes to the King YHWH, and YHWH Bless.

    October 15, 2012 at 6:01 pm |
    • Lorraine

      Exodus 4:22,23, tells us who the son, and firstborn of the King, and Creator of Life YHWH is, and it is 'ISRAEL' the chosen people. This does not say jesus, and there cannot be two firstborn sons, Duh that again. YHWH BLESS, SELAH!

      October 15, 2012 at 6:17 pm |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      You're a bigot!! Your imaginary friends laws can't be used in a court of law and therefore, its opinion on anything does not matter!! Being gay has been proven by science to be natural and if you wish to remain ignorant so be it but do not expect everyone else to share the same ignorance!! I hope one of your children or grandchildren comes out as gay. People like you are a disgrace to the human race and are the ones who deserve ridicule!

      October 16, 2012 at 6:35 am |
  19. John

    "Read Ecclesiastes. Read romans or corinthians.

    You cant trancend your own egoism by adapting a world philosophy to suit your needs. Seek the truth in Christ."

    Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.

    Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.

    There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.

    Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.

    Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?

    Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).

    That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex.

    October 15, 2012 at 11:07 am |
  20. Kindness

    This is my experience... Thank you.

    MY personal testimony.
    A thought to consider without an ego response

    I Accepted Jesus christ as my lord and saviour. You never know how soon is too late. Transcend the worldly illusion of enslavement.
    The world denounces truth....

    Accepting Jesus Christ (for me) resulted in something like seeng a new colour. You will see it .....but will not be able to clearly explain it to anyone else..... Its meant to be that way to transend any selfism within you.

    Also... much the world arranges "surrounding dark matter into something to be debated" in such a way that protects/inflates the ego.

    The key is be present and transcend our own desire to physically see evidence. We don't know anyways by defending our own perception of dark matter.

    Currently.... most of us are constructing our own path that suits our sin lifestyle. Were all sinners. Knowing that we are is often an issue. But both christians and non are sinners. Even once we are saved by christs merciful grace we will still experience adversity to mold us to adhering to the truth.
    We will slip... But not fall of the ship ...carrying us onward to perfection in christs grace.

    We don't like to Let go and let god. We want control to some degree. This is what Jesus asks us to do. "Follow me".
    It's the hardest thing to do... but is done by letting the truth of scripture lead you (redemptive revelation)... as I said .

    Try reading corinthians and see if it makes sense to you. Try it without a pre conceived notion of it being a fairy tale.
    See the truth...
    do we do what it says in todays society... is it relevant... so many have not recently read and only hinge their philosophy on what they have heard from some other person...which may have been full of arogance pride or vanity..

    Look closely at the economy ponzi, look at how society idolizes Lust , greed , envy, sloth, pride of life, desire for knowledge, desire for power, desire for revencge,gluttony with food etc .

    Trancsend the temporal world.

    Just think if you can find any truth you can take with you ....in any of these things. When you die your riches go to someone who will spend away your life..... You will be forgotten.... history will repeat iteslf.... the greatest minds knowledge fade or are eventually plagerzed..... your good deeds will be forgotten and only give you a fleeting temporary reward . your learned teachings are forgotten or mutated..... your gold is transfered back to the rullers that rule you through deception. Your grave will grow over . This is truth .

    Trancsend your egoism and free yourself from this dominion of satan. Understand you are a sinner and part of the collective problem of this worldly matrix... Repent.... Repent means knowing (to change) The Holy spirit (within) will convict you beyond what you think you can do by yourself. Grace is given to those who renounce the world. That are" in" the world but not "of " the world.

    Evidence follows faith. Faith does not follow evidence..... Faith ....above reason in Jesus Christ.

    Faith comes by Reading or Hearing the word of god from the bible . Ask Jesus in faith for dicernment and start reading the new testament... You will be shocked when you lay down your preconceived notions and ....see and hear truth ... see how christ sets an example ... feel the truth....

    Read Ecclesiastes. Read romans or corinthians.

    You cant trancend your own egoism by adapting a world philosophy to suit your needs. Seek the truth in Christ.

    Sell all your cleverness and purchase true bewilderment. You don't get what you want ....you get what you are by faith above reason in christ.

    I promise this has been the truth for me. In Jesus christ .

    Think of what you really have to lose. ...your ego?

    Break the Matrix of illusion that holds your senses captive.

    once you do . you too will have the wisdom of God that comes only through the Holy Spirit. Saved By grace through Faith. Just like seeing a new colour.... can't explain it to a transient caught in the matrix of worldly deception.
    You will also see how the world suppresses this information and distorts it

    You're all smart people . I tell the truth. Its hard to think out of the box when earthly thinking is the box.
    I'ts a personal free experience you can do it free anytime . Don't wait till you are about to die.. START PUTTING YOUR TREASURES WHERE THEY REALLY MATTER >
    Its awsome and It's just between you and Jesus

    my testimony

    Romans 10:9

    "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

    Last eve I passed beside a blacksmith’s door,
    And heard the anvil ring the vesper chime;
    The, looking in, I saw upon the floor
    Old hammers, worn with beating years of time.
    “How many anvils have you had,” said I,
    “To wear and batter all these hammers so?”
    “Just one,” said he, and then with twinkling eye,
    “The anvil wears the hammers out, you know.”
    And so, thought I, the anvil of God’s Word,
    For ages skeptic blows have beat upon;
    Yet, though the noise of falling blows was heard,
    The anvil is unharmed – the hammers gone.

    Truth is..exclusive

    October 14, 2012 at 4:00 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke and Eric Marrapodi with daily contributions from CNN's worldwide newsgathering team.