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My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage
The author backs same-sex marriage because of his faith, not in spite of it.
May 19th, 2012
02:00 AM ET

My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage

Editor's Note: Mark Osler is a Professor of Law at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

By Mark Osler, Special to CNN

I am a Christian, and I am in favor of gay marriage. The reason I am for gay marriage is because of my faith.

What I see in the Bible’s accounts of Jesus and his followers is an insistence that we don’t have the moral authority to deny others the blessing of holy institutions like baptism, communion, and marriage. God, through the Holy Spirit, infuses those moments with life, and it is not ours to either give or deny to others.

A clear instruction on this comes from Simon Peter, the “rock” on whom the church is built. Peter is a captivating figure in the Christian story. Jesus plucks him out of a fishing boat to become a disciple, and time and again he represents us all in learning at the feet of Christ.

During their time together, Peter is often naïve and clueless – he is a follower, constantly learning.

After Jesus is crucified, though, a different Peter emerges, one who is forceful and bold. This is the Peter we see in the Acts of the Apostles, during a fevered debate over whether or not Gentiles should be baptized. Peter was harshly criticized for even eating a meal with those who were uncircumcised; that is, those who did not follow the commands of the Old Testament.

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Peter, though, is strong in confronting those who would deny the sacrament of baptism to the Gentiles, and argues for an acceptance of believers who do not follow the circumcision rules of Leviticus (which is also where we find a condemnation of homosexuality).

His challenge is stark and stunning: Before ordering that the Gentiles be baptized Peter asks “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

None of us, Peter says, has the moral authority to deny baptism to those who seek it, even if they do not follow the ancient laws. It is the flooding love of the Holy Spirit, which fell over that entire crowd, sinners and saints alike, that directs otherwise.

My Take: Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality

It is not our place, it seems, to sort out who should be denied a bond with God and the Holy Spirit of the kind that we find through baptism, communion, and marriage. The water will flow where it will.

Intriguingly, this rule will apply whether we see homosexuality as a sin or not. The water is for all of us. We see the same thing at the Last Supper, as Jesus gives the bread and wine to all who are there—even to Peter, who Jesus said would deny him, and to Judas, who would betray him.

The question before us now is not whether homosexuality is a sin, but whether being gay should be a bar to baptism or communion or marriage.

Your Take: Rethinking the Bible on homosexuality

The answer is in the Bible. Peter and Jesus offer a strikingly inclusive form of love and engagement. They hold out the symbols of Gods’ love to all. How arrogant that we think it is ours to parse out stingily!

I worship at St. Stephens, an Episcopal church in Edina, Minnesota. There is a river that flows around the back and side of that church with a delightful name: Minnehaha Creek. That is where we do baptisms.

The Rector stands in the creek in his robes, the cool water coursing by his feet, and takes an infant into his arms and baptizes her with that same cool water. The congregation sits on the grassy bank and watches, a gentle army.

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At the bottom of the creek, in exactly that spot, is a floor of smooth pebbles. The water rushing by has rubbed off the rough edges, bit by bit, day by day. The pebbles have been transformed by that water into something new.

I suppose that, as Peter put it, someone could try to withhold the waters of baptism there. They could try to stop the river, to keep the water from some of the stones, like a child in the gutter building a barrier against the stream.

It won’t last, though. I would say this to those who would withhold the water of baptism, the joy of worship, or the bonds of marriage: You are less strong than the water, which will flow around you, find its path, and gently erode each wall you try to erect.

The redeeming power of that creek, and of the Holy Spirit, is relentless, making us all into something better and new.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Mark Osler.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Christianity • Episcopal • Gay marriage • Opinion

soundoff (15,115 Responses)
  1. John

    "Gen 2:22 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man."

    Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.

    Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.

    There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.

    Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.

    Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?

    Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).

    That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex.

    October 19, 2012 at 11:35 am |
  2. Douglas

    Celibacy Rocks!

    This refrain is heard over and over again from LGBTQ couples taking ownership of their responsibility to remain
    celibate in their Christian journey. The Bible is unambiguous about the prohibition against gay/lesbian coitus in both
    the Old and New Testaments. As LGBTQ Christians pore over the Bible in their journey to salvation, they find they
    have a place as celibate believers following the path toward righteousness.

    It is refreshing to work with these couples and to provide guidance and counseling along the way.

    There is hope in couples coming out from fornication and leaving sins of the past behind in an exodus of hope.

    With God...anything is possible!

    –Douglas

    October 19, 2012 at 10:55 am |
    • James

      "This refrain is heard over and over again from LGBTQ couples taking ownership of their responsibility to remain
      celibate in their Christian journey. "

      You're wrong again as usual. The scriptures actually say nothing about homosexuality as a psychosexual orientation. Our understandings of sexual orientation are distinctly modern ones that were not present in the minds of Scripture writers. A few passages of Scripture (seven at the most) object to certain types of same-sex expressions or acts. The particular acts in question, however, are sexual expressions which are exploitative, oppressive, commercialized, or offensive to ancient purity rituals. There is no Scriptural guidance for same-sex relationships which are loving and mutually respecting. Guidelines for these relationships should come from the same general Scriptural norms that apply to heterosexual relationships.

      October 19, 2012 at 11:34 am |
    • /// o \\\

      As the NT and OT (and all Abrahamic religion) are nothing more than written fable with no credibility, often based on other written or word-of-mouth fable, the point is moot. So knock yourself out Douglas – be all the ding-dong you can be.

      October 19, 2012 at 11:48 am |
  3. Bob

    Just for Yeah because he loves a repost
    Gen 2:21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place.
    Gen 2:22 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.
    Gen 2:23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man."
    Gen 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
    Gen 2:25 And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.
    Gen 3:16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."
    Gen 7:15 So they went into the ark to Noah, by twos of all flesh in which was the breath of life.
    Gen 7:16 Those that entered, male and female of all flesh, entered as God had commanded him; and the LORD closed it behind him.
    Son 7:1 "How beautiful are your feet in sandals, O prince's daughter! The curves of your hips are like jewels, The work of the hands of an artist.
    Son 7:2 "Your navel is like a round goblet Which never lacks mixed wine; Your belly is like a heap of wheat Fenced about with lilies.
    Son 7:3 "Your two breasts are like two fawns, Twins of a gazelle.
    Son 7:4 "Your neck is like a tower of ivory, Your eyes like the pools in Heshbon By the gate of Bath-rabbim; Your nose is like the tower of Lebanon, Which faces toward Damascus.
    Son 7:5 "Your head crowns you like Carmel, And the flowing locks of your head are like purple threads; The king is captivated by your tresses.
    Son 7:6 "How beautiful and how delightful you are, My love, with all your charms!
    Son 7:7 "Your stature is like a palm tree, And your breasts are like its clusters.
    Son 7:8 "I said, 'I will climb the palm tree, I will take hold of its fruit stalks.' Oh, may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, And the fragrance of your breath like apples,
    Son 7:9 And your mouth like the best wine!" "It goes down smoothly for my beloved, Flowing gently through the lips of those who fall asleep.
    Son 7:10 "I am my beloved's, And his desire is for me.
    Son 7:11 "Come, my beloved, let us go out into the country, Let us spend the night in the villages.
    Son 7:12 "Let us rise early and go to the vineyards; Let us see whether the vine has budded And its blossoms have opened, And whether the pomegranates have bloomed. There I will give you my love.
    Son 7:13 "The mandrakes have given forth fragrance; And over our doors are all choice fruits, Both new and old, Which I have saved up for you, my beloved.

    October 18, 2012 at 7:00 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      I think you love Yeah, Right. And not in a 'pure, agape' sort of way, Boob.

      October 18, 2012 at 7:01 pm |
    • Robert

      Bob's just angry and hurt that he lost the argument pages ago so he continues throwing these tantrums of hate thinking someone will actually take it seriously. Bob, people recognize your hate and ignorance, it's defined as homophobia.

      October 19, 2012 at 11:41 am |
  4. .

    "Ronald Regonzo" who degenerates to:
    "Salvatore" degenerates to:
    "Douglas" degenerates to:
    Taskmaster" degenerates to:
    "truth be told" degenerates to:
    "The Truth" degenerates to:
    "Thinker23" degenerates to:
    "Atheism is not healthy ..." degenerates to:
    "another repentant sinner" degenerates to:
    "Dodney Rangerfield" degenerates to:
    "tina" degenerates to:
    "captain america" degenerates to:
    "Atheist Hunter" degenerates to:
    "Anybody know how to read? " degenerates to:
    "just sayin" degenerates to:
    "ImLook'nUp" degenerates to:
    "Kindness" degenerates to:
    "Lorraine" degenerates to:
    "Chad" degenerates to
    "Bob" degenerates to
    "nope" degenerates to:
    "2357" degenerates to:
    "WOW" degenerates to:
    "fred" degenerates to:
    "!" degenerates to:
    "pervert alert"

    This troll is not a christian.

    October 18, 2012 at 5:12 pm |
    • Lorraine

      I beg your pardon, I am not a christian, cretins are what they are st--, followers, excuse me but never am I a christian. I have no religion, i know they are all wrong, and idolatry strange idols, if you can see it, touch it, pictures, wood, or stone, and you praise it, then it is an idol, Deuteronomy 4. Religion is to control the masses as prophesied they would in the book of Daniel 11:39,legalized by Constantine in 311ce, taught in the book of remembrance which is not the so called bible, nor the ot. It is a book to r e m e m b e r YHWH the Creator of all life. This is no religion it is the universal law of righteousness, of peace, for all mankind, not just some, or the selected few; that is what, and how man works. I know that the words peace, and righteous is an abstraction to the heathens. Read Gen.-Mal, the truth. YHWH Bless.

      October 18, 2012 at 5:49 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Loopy, please see a doctor. Your posts are indicative of a mental disorder.

      October 18, 2012 at 8:49 pm |
    • Lorraine

      tomtom the piper, a mental disorder? and yet you respond to each, and everyone of my posts; so therefore, what does that make you have?, lol, your so funny, or is it simple? Take a number, and stand in line with the rest of those who hate, and find righteousness, as an abstraction. Do all yourselves a favor, and read Gen.-Malachi, pray, and do the law of righteousness in Exodus 20, Deuteronomy 5. YHWH Bless.

      October 19, 2012 at 10:43 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      And you respond to all of mine, Froot Loop. What's that make you, you wackaloon?

      Your posts are complete nonsense, full of unreadable gibberish. Why do you think anyone is going to listen to such utter drivel? Why would you imagine that you're not going to be ridiculed when you are so obviously insane?

      October 19, 2012 at 10:47 am |
    • Lorraine

      tomtom the piper, you do, listen that is, obviously you dig me, or is it that you care, aw, lol. get a grip, or simply go away its a free site, right? Again, let it gooo! angry person, you are not the boss of me, back in the day bullies were the easiest to recruit in high school, truce, peace, i'm out, Lol. YHWH Bless.

      October 19, 2012 at 10:59 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      I'll continue to post exactly what I wish, Froot Loop. Don't like it? Then leave.

      October 19, 2012 at 11:03 am |
    • Robert

      Yet Lorraine only posts on the gay articles so I think the original poster is correct. It's funny how Lorraine missed the last sentence too.

      October 19, 2012 at 11:44 am |
  5. JS

    Christians are increasingly divided over the issue of the acceptance and inclusion of gay persons into the church. The debate itself is usually framed as essentially pitting the Bible, on one hand, against compassion and social justice on the other. Our Christian hearts, runs the (usually impassioned) argument, compel us to grant full moral and legal equality to gay and lesbian people; our Christian faith, comes the (usually impassioned) rebuttal, compels us to cleave, above all, to the word of God.

    Compassion for others is the fundamental cornerstone of Christian ethics; the Bible is the bedrock of the Christian faith. What Christian can possibly choose between the two?

    The answer is that no Christian is called upon to make that choice. The text of the Bible on one hand, and full equality for gay and lesbian people on the other, is a false dichotomy. God would not ask or expect Christians to ever choose between their heart and their faith.

    Reconciling the Bible with unqualified acceptance and equality for LGBT people does not necessitate discounting, recasting, deconstructing or reinterpreting the Bible. All it takes is reading those passages of the Bible wherein homosexuality is mentioned with the same care we would any other passage of the book.

    We can trust God; we can trust that God is loving.

    And we can trust that we can - and that we certainly should - take God, in this matter, as in all things, at his Word.

    If there is no clearly stated directive in the Bible to marginalize and ostracize gay people, then Christians continuing to do so is morally indefensible, and must cease.

    What cannot be denied is that Christians have caused a great deal of pain and suffering to gay persons, by:

    Banning their participation in the church, thus depriving them of the comforts and spiritual fruits of the church;

    Banning their participation in the sacrament of marriage, thus depriving them of the comforts and spiritual fruits of marriage;

    Damaging the bonds between gays and their straight family members, thus weakening the comforts and spiritual fruits of family life for both gays and their families; and

    Using their position within society as spokespersons for God to proclaim that all homosexual relations are disdained by God, thus knowingly contributing to the cruel persecution of a minority population.

    Christians do not deny that they have done these things. However, they contend that they have no choice but to do these things, based on what they say is a clear directive about homosexuals delivered to them by God through the Holy Bible. They say that the Bible defines all homosexual acts as sinful, instructs them to exclude from full participation in the church all non-repentant sinners (including gay people), and morally calls upon them to publicly (or at least resolutely) denounce homosexual acts.

    Without an explicit directive from God to exclude and condemn homosexuals, the Christian community's treatment of gay persons is in clear violation of what Jesus and the New Testament writers pointedly identified as the most important commandment from God: to love one's neighbor as one's self.

    The gay community has cried out for justice to Christians, who have a biblically mandated obligation to be just. Because the mistreatment of gay persons by Christians is so severe, the directive from God to marginalize and ostracize gay people must be clear and explicit in the Bible. If there is no such clearly stated directive, then the continued Christian mistreatment of gay and lesbian people is morally indefensible, and must cease.

    The Bible is not a contract, or a set of instructions, with each passage spelling out something clear and specific. It is not a rulebook for being Christian. It is instead a widely varying collection of poetry, history, proverbs, moral directives, parables, letters and wondrous visions. We would be foolish to fail to understand that not everything in the Bible is a commandment, and that Christians cannot take any small section of the Bible out of its own context, and still hope to gain a clear understanding of its meaning.

    We can be confident that Paul was not writing to, or about, gay people, because he simply could not have been, any more than he could have written about smart phones or iPads. We do not know what Paul might write or say today about gay people. All we know is that in the New Testament he wrote about promiscuous, predatory, non-consensual same-sex acts between heterosexuals.

    If we are to rely on the Bible; then we must take its text as it is. It does condemn homosexual (and heterosexual) sex that is excessive, exploitive and outside of marriage. It does not, however, address the state of homosexuality itself - much less the subject of homosexual acts between a married gay couple. Christians therefore have no Bible-based moral justification for themselves condemning such acts.

    Because there was no concept of gay marriage when the Bible was written: the Bible does not, and could not, address the sinfulness of homosexual acts done within the context of gay marriage.

    The Bible routinely, clearly and strongly classifies all sex acts outside of the bonds of marriage as sinful. But, because there was no concept of gay people when the Bible was written, the Bible does not, and could not, address the sinfulness of homosexual acts done within the context of marriage. Christians therefore have no biblical basis for themselves condemning such acts.

    In fact, by denying marriage equality to gay people, Christians are compelling gay couples to sin, because their intimacy must happen outside of marriage, and is therefore, by biblical definition, sinful.

    Being personally repelled by homosexual sex doesn't make homosexual sex a sin.

    Christians cite as additional evidence of the inherent sinfulness of homosexual acts their raw emotional response to such acts. It is understandable that many straight people find homosexual sex repugnant (just as many gay people find heterosexual sex repugnant). It is normal for any one of us to be viscerally repelled by the idea of sex between, or with, people for whom we personally have no sexual attraction. It may feel to a straight Christian that their instinctive negative reaction to homosexual sex arises out of the Bible. But all of us necessarily view the Bible through the lens of our own experiences and prejudices, and we must be very careful to ensure that lens does not distort our vision or understanding of God's sacrosanct word.

    "The greatest of these is love."

    The overriding message of Jesus was love. Jesus modeled love; Jesus preached love; Jesus was love. Christians desiring to do and live the will of Jesus are morally obliged to always err on the side of love.

    October 18, 2012 at 5:09 pm |
  6. YeahRight

    "Legally if people need to get their finances, and assets in order, by marriage, or what have you, then according to this world yes why not? It should not be publicized, this is discrimination"

    No idiot this is about civil rights. In America marriage has been declared a civil right.

    Marriage was defined by the US Supreme Court as a civil right. Recognized federal civil rights law in the United States is grounded in the U.S. Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court. By this standard, marriage has long been established as a civil right.

    The operative constitutional text is section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment, which was ratified in 1868. The relevant passages read as follows:

    No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws

    A federal appeals court on May 31st ruled that the Defense of Marriage Act is unconstitutional because it denies equal rights for legally married same-sex couples, making it likely that the Supreme Court will consider the politically divisive issue for the first time in its next term. This most likely will be decided in the courts and since most courts keep ruling in gays favor they should be able to over turn all the unconstitutional laws prejudice bigots have been trying to pass.

    These rights include:
    Tax Benefits
    -–Filing joint income tax returns with the I R S and state taxing authorities.
    -–Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.
    Estate Planning Benefits
    -–Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.
    -–Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
    -–Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
    -–Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse – that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.
    Government Benefits
    -–Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
    -–Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
    -–Receiving public assistance benefits.
    -–Employment Benefits
    -–Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
    -–Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
    -–Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
    -–Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.
    Medical Benefits
    -–Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
    -–Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.
    Death Benefits
    -–Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
    -–Making burial or other final arrangements.
    Family Benefits
    -–Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
    -–Applying for joint foster care rights.
    -–Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
    -–Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.
    Housing Benefits
    -–Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."
    -–Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.
    Consumer Benefits
    -–Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.
    -–Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
    -–Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.
    -–Other Legal Benefits and Protections
    -–Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
    -–Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
    -–Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
    -–Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
    -–Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
    -–Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.

    October 18, 2012 at 5:06 pm |
  7. mama k

    Lorraine, learn to use the reply button. Maybe you missed the part where I said "I don't believe in any religion that man has created thus far, including any leading up to and including the god of Abraham." Just in case you don't understand, that means including you YHWH – also a man made higher being. The further you go back, the less credible gods are. Outside of any writings by men, you might try coming up with any credible proof of you YHWH and present it. Let's see how you do with that.

    October 18, 2012 at 4:48 pm |
    • mama k

      Let me put it to you another way, Lorraine, just so you're clear and not confused about my position. I believe that human beings, to date, do not know, and have not known anything that would be today termed a higher being or something supernatural. There simply has never been any credible evidence of such entities. This includes YHWY. Writings from ancient fable is not credible evidence. It is simply ancient fable.

      October 18, 2012 at 5:05 pm |
    • Lorraine

      mama k, my point was not to have you to 'believe' I can care less, but its not a belief as the christians do, it is a substantiation of american history, and history period. I my dear like to 'know'. As i've said there is a plethora of information about YHWH, and His adversaries, its not taught in schools, for YHWHs adversaries run them, but by historians, and geniuses alike, mostly taught to them all by the most High YHWH. We may go separate ways fine with me, until now, and 2016. YHWH Bless.

      October 18, 2012 at 6:01 pm |
  8. Lorraine

    sam stone, this sounds like a greed ideology of man, man says its over populated not YHWH, this is just greed, and selfishness. For instance, why can't we all have black watermelons, they are crispier, and sweeter, and why do they have to cost $4000 dollars to enjoy when YHWH made them for us all. Why do those in dominion take the chaff and give to the masses? That's not right, and not of YHWH, He made enough for us all says my science teacher a long time ago, as long as that sun shines we are fine. I'm out you guys are clueless, sorry, but its true.

    October 18, 2012 at 3:43 pm |
  9. Lorraine

    dang, mama k, king David, king Solomon.

    October 18, 2012 at 3:28 pm |
  10. Lorraine

    mama k, And to add, I don't do religion either, they are all idolatry, and the so called OT, was not a bible, but the truth of all life, and how the adversaries got to their dominion as the International Bankers today reading it over the centuries. They do not have to pay taxes, nor disclose how they are the riches 'trillionaires' in the world, ask John Lewis the congressman of what Paul sen told him. 'clue'

    October 18, 2012 at 3:12 pm |
  11. Lorraine

    mama k, you can't pick, and choose, meaning accept David, and Solomon in the american history, and then deny the prophets who were with them, as Nehemiah, and Ezra were in the time, and with Artaxerxes the Persian king in 465, 444 B.C. E. Look it up. Many in those days in fear of YHWH, called upon the prophets. The educational system tries to block certain truths out for status purposes, but it is inevitable, and right there in black, and white, one must research their history. While you at it look up 'the goodship jesus' it too has american history. Again all religions are wrong. This is no religion, just substantiated truths. YHWH Bless.

    October 18, 2012 at 12:15 pm |
    • mama k

      I guess this is a reply to something I posted earlier. Regardless, what on earth are you talking about? At one point you say "Again all religions are wrong", so I would have to agree with you there, but it sounds like you don't consider the old testament of the Bible part of any religion. In any event, all of it is rehashed folklore. Fable passed down by word of mouth and rehashed along the way into different forms, is just that – fable. Especially the characters in the OT. So I'm not sure where you are saying I am differentiating between parts of belief – I don't believe in any religion that man has created thus far, including any leading up to and including the god of Abraham. Does that clarify things for you Lorraine?

      October 18, 2012 at 2:06 pm |
    • mama k

      And Lorraine – what does this mean:

      "meaning accept David, and Solomon in the american history" ??

      October 18, 2012 at 2:33 pm |
    • Lorraine

      mama k, First, the so called OT, is not the name of this book, its true name is 'the book of remembrance' in Malachi 3:16, the catch word here is to 'r e m e m b e r' as YHWH allowed for His adversaries in Psalms 83, to mislead the people of His truth, for a reason, to find those who wholeheartedly want the truth, and righteousness, but many forgot YHWH, and He will magnify Himself again, and all will remember, and know who He is soon. Many went astray with mayhem, perversion, and defiled themselves from doing right by one another, and themselves.

      Yes, this book has been tampered with, as taught in Micah 7, that we have to discern even this guide. The rewriting of this book has a history, since the 1st, and 2nd centuries, the Maccabees; but note how there is an old, and a new of this book 'clue' for even the adversaries know who YHWH is, and do have a fear, as said in Malachi 1:14, but to lie to the people is what he knows best, he's the greatest demagogue prophesied in Genesis 27, who is being allowed to do all of this, wars, in difference, imposed poverty, etc..but he is so high now that even he has forgotten that he will fall in the end. Just what YHWH knew he would do.

      There is nothing old about the book of remembrance, so called OT, it is juxtaposed, and tells us everything about life, and the adversary has known this as far back as the book of Esther, trying to reach his dominion then, but he finally did in 1904, like I said this book has a history, the adversary of YHWHs, runs all of the educational systems, and the world, so I can understand why one would not be able to see what is truly going on. They would have to pray, and read Genesis-Malachi, and really want to know, otherwise I see you, and I think you see me too, but if one rather play it safe so be it. There is much information on this truth, and the book of remembrance, a book by Victor Marsden, and William Steels, Money Masters, or Ben H. Freedman. YHWH Bless.

      October 18, 2012 at 2:54 pm |
  12. YeahRight

    "This kind of physical intimacy is perversion. The sweat and smells of a man instead of a woman abusing you, there is no acceptable gay physical relationship in the Bible. Anyone who says so is themselves a subject of perversion."

    Bob can't handle the fact that the experts in this country and around the world have proven that being gay is normal. So he continues to post his hatred over and over again. This is a great example of a homophobic person who's hated isn't based on any really facts.

    Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

    Social science has shown that the concerns often raised about children of lesbian and gay parents—concerns that are generally grounded in prejudice against and stereotypes about gay people—are unfounded. Overall, the research indicates that the children of lesbian and gay parents do not differ from the children of heterosexual parents in their development, adjustment, or overall well-being.

    October 18, 2012 at 10:51 am |
    • Lorraine

      These are all personal opinions of course but again according to man's ways, yes, it is acceptable, but not of YHWH. His design for man was for procreation, and this isn't to say anyone is right, or wrong, it is just what He is about, and that is life, and creation. I personally feel that a person's personal life choice is no one's business. Take Richard Simons for instance, a wonderful man, very talented, and a beautiful person, loved by many, myself included, now what he does in his personal life is none of my business, or anyone else, it is between him, and YHWH God, and until this day I don't know what he does personally, and don't care.

      Legally if people need to get their finances, and assets in order, by marriage, or what have you, then according to this world yes why not? It should not be publicized, this is discrimination, for Its their business. When I go to take care of my personal business I don't want the world to come with me. Besides, Its between them, and YHWH, we are all responsible for our own rights, and wrongs in Jeremiah 31:30, and Ezekiel 14. YHWH Bless.

      October 18, 2012 at 12:36 pm |
    • sam stone

      you have no authority to speak for god, lorraine

      October 18, 2012 at 2:24 pm |
    • sam stone

      "His design for man was for procreation"

      How can you be sure that god did not make some ho-mo-se-xua-l as a limitation on population?

      Theists are always talking about how detailed god can be, but apparently they do not consider this

      October 18, 2012 at 2:27 pm |
  13. Bob

    Since Yeah was reposting I thought this would be a good
    Salvatore
    As my doctor was examining me In the bent over position with his finger in my butt for my prostate exam, I couldn't help but think not only how violated but how much it hurt and the pressure. This was a finger inserted for a medical exam, but this is the pinnacle of a gay relationship and supposed to feel good? How does bonding and intimacy and what the Bible calls loving and normal relationship get replaced in these peoples minds with what is unclean, embarrassing and abusing. This is a orifice that feces comes out of and this is a normal relationship for some? Stinky, smelly, hurting and this is what a normal relationship to gays is. This kind of physical intimacy is perversion. The sweat and smells of a man instead of a woman abusing you, there is no acceptable gay physical relationship in the Bible. Anyone who says so is themselves a subject of perversion.

    October 18, 2012 at 10:35 am |
    • Robert

      Bob why are you so obsessed and fascinated with the sexual part of homosexuality? You do understand that heterosexual couples have the exact kind of sex so when you post this over and over again you are condemning this for everyone.

      October 18, 2012 at 10:48 am |
    • Damocles

      @Bob

      I was feeling blue and needed a laugh and damn if your post didn't provide me with one! Kudos!

      October 18, 2012 at 10:57 am |
  14. YeahRight

    "Yet the lies or slight of word, the false logic all would want you to believe that h0m0 intercourse or relationship is supposedly normal. "

    No, the experts in this country have proven that it is normal and only prejudice bigots like you twist the scriptures to try and justify your hatred. The writers of the scriptures had no understanding of sexual orientation when they wrote it since it wasn't even studied until the 19th century. Part of reading comprehension 101 is putting the scriptures into historical context to understand it. You are NOT doing that.

    Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

    October 18, 2012 at 10:33 am |
  15. John

    "Gen 2:25 And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed."

    Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.

    Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.

    There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.

    Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.

    Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?

    Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).

    That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex.

    October 18, 2012 at 10:29 am |
  16. Shawn

    Let me start this off with a quote from a famous lesbian, Lynn Lavner:

    "There are 6 admonishments in the Bible concerning homosexual activity, and our enemies are always throwing them up to us – usually in a vicious way and very much out of context.

    What they don't want us to remember is that there are 362 admonishments in the Bible concerning heterosexual activity. I don't mean to imply by this that God doesn't love straight people, only that they seem to require a great deal more supervision."

    I am going to attempt to keep this short and simple, so here we go.

    Some claim that Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 clearly say that homosexual sex is an abomination. In fact, it merits death. Isn't it obvious that God hates homosexuality?

    Yes, depending on which translation you are using, Leviticus does say, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female, it's an abomination." However, a few points must be made about this statement:

    a) It appears in Leviticus, which was given to preserve the distinctive characteristics of the religion and culture of Israel. However, as stated in Galatians 3:22-55, Christians are no longer bound by these Jewish laws. Even if you, for some reason, argue that these "laws" are still important, then you surely follow all of them, right?

    It is interesting that people who use Leviticus against the gay community forget the part that talks about religious sacrifices, making women sleep in tents outside during their period, the dietary restrictions placed on them and how to cleanse a leper, all of which appear in Leviticus.

    The laws of Leviticus are completely obsolete for today's Christian; however, even if you do claim to live by the laws of Leviticus, it is not fair to pick and choose which laws you are going to live by, or condemn a people by, if you are not going to follow the others. You should not need any more convincing evidence than this; but if you do, be my guest.

    b) The word that was in the original work, "to'ebah," which was translated into Greek as "bdglygma" actually means "ritual impurity" rather than abomination (or enormous sin). These passages in Leviticus can be translated to not mean homosexual sex generally, but only limiting homosexual sex in Pagan temples.

    c) This passage does not denounce homosexual behavior as a whole, but just the specific act of anal sex. This was meant for the prevention of disease. It was ruled unclean because it was physically unclean; however, hygiene has made wonderful advances since that time.

    d) These passages in Leviticus can be interpreted in many ways. I have seen it interpreted by scholars and priests to mean: "don't have sex with another man in your wife's bed;" "don't have sex with another man in the temple;" and "don't have sex with another man and pretend he is a woman," just to name a few.

    I have never seen an interpretation in any Bible, or from any scholar, that specifically says to never have sex with a man.

    Some claim the Bible simply does not support gay marriage. Chapter two of Genesis defines marriage as a holy union between a man and a woman. And later, in Matthew 19:4-5, Jesus himself reiterates the traits of a traditional marriage. How can you argue that anything other than celibacy is honorable for gay and lesbian people?

    Yes, marriage is a holy union. However, in these passages, while Jesus reiterates (but does not require) the traditional marriage, he also provides an exception for eunuchs (castrated men – or otherwise impotent men, in today's terms), and allowed them to be married, saying that this law is given to those to whom it applies.

    Because these eunuchs were born sexless, God made an exception for them because it was natural. The same applies to the Gay community today. Science has proven homosexuality is completely natural, so it seems God would allow for homosexual marriages.

    In Matthew 19: 4-5, Jesus encourages a traditional path, but does not discourage alternatives, except in the case of divorce.

    Jesus did stress purity of marriage, but not in regard to the sexes of the people within it. It can be seen that the reason that churches are against homosexual marriage is not because it is explicitly said by God, but because of a lack of instruction to specifically allow it.

    In the time that the Bible was written it would have been impossible to foresee the future to be able to specifically allow or forbid homosexual marriage.

    Some claim, in Paul's letter to the Corinthians, he lists homosexuals amongst the many sinners who will not inherit the kingdom of God. Doesn't that make God's position on this vice very clear?

    If we look at the other types of people listed in this passage, we can understand what it is actually talking about. Law breakers, thieves, adulterers and drunks are specifically mentioned. The word "homosexual" was not found until the 1890s, so it would have been impossible for it to be in the original version.

    What actually appears in the original is Paul condemning those who are "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind." In this context, the original Greek word, "malakos," is translated into effeminate, or soft, which, more than likely, refers to someone who lacks discipline or moral control.

    In this passage, when Paul condemns "abusers of themselves with mankind," he is speaking of male prostitutes.

    Then there are the people who claim that, even though science has proven that people don't choose their sexual orientation, the fact remains that homosexuality is unnatural. Romans 1:26-27 tells us that humans have a sinful nature, and therefore commit sins against God. Certain people are predisposed to be alcoholics and pedophiles, but that doesn't make their actions any less immoral. God tells us to "tear out your eye" if it makes you stumble. Why can't you just accept homosexuality as the part of your nature you must deny?

    Because the Bible has gone through so many translations, and through the hands of many people (some being non-believers), it is not surprising that the meaning has become a little fuzzy in parts.

    Homosexuality is normal. The phrase "para physin" appears in the original text for this verse. This term is often translated to mean "unnatural;" however, more accurate translation would be unconventional.

    Proof for this can be found in 1 Corinthians 11:14 where Paul uses this phrase to refer to men with long hair (unconventional, not unnatural) and in Romans 11:24 where Paul uses this phrase to refer to the positive action God made to bring together the Jews and Gentiles.

    All in all, homosexuality is obviously not a sin, unless you take passages from the Bible and add your own words or you just try really hard to interpret it that way. Let's just remember Galatians 5:14, where Paul stated, "the whole Law is fulfilled in one Statement, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'

    October 18, 2012 at 10:28 am |
    • Bob

      ANOTHER REPOST BY LOOSER YEAH RIGHT WHAT A WASTE OF TIME AND SPACE.

      October 18, 2012 at 10:32 am |
    • YeahRight

      I did not write that post idiot, nice try.

      October 18, 2012 at 10:34 am |
    • .

      "Ronald Regonzo" who degenerates to:
      "Salvatore" degenerates to:
      "Douglas" degenerates to:
      Taskmaster" degenerates to:
      "truth be told" degenerates to:
      "The Truth" degenerates to:
      "Thinker23" degenerates to:
      "Atheism is not healthy ..." degenerates to:
      "another repentant sinner" degenerates to:
      "Dodney Rangerfield" degenerates to:
      "tina" degenerates to:
      "captain america" degenerates to:
      "Atheist Hunter" degenerates to:
      "Anybody know how to read? " degenerates to:
      "just sayin" degenerates to:
      "ImLook'nUp" degenerates to:
      "Kindness" degenerates to:
      "Lorraine" degenerates to:
      "Chad" degenerates to
      "Bob" degenerates to
      "nope" degenerates to:
      "2357" degenerates to:
      "WOW" degenerates to:
      "fred" degenerates to:
      "!" degenerates to:
      "pervert alert"

      This troll is not a christian!

      October 18, 2012 at 10:35 am |
    • mama k

      Well, Bob if you feel strongly enough to reply in caps, why don't you add a substantive explanation detailing what is making you scream like a child? So far you are an outburst of air.

      October 18, 2012 at 11:25 am |
    • mama k

      And furthermore, the Bible is nothing but unfounded stories built on top of rehashed folklore. It's nothing that should be used as a guide to judge people.

      October 18, 2012 at 11:28 am |
  17. Bob

    Gen 2:21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place.
    Gen 2:22 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.
    Gen 2:23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man."
    Gen 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
    Gen 2:25 And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.
    Gen 3:16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."
    Gen 7:15 So they went into the ark to Noah, by twos of all flesh in which was the breath of life.
    Gen 7:16 Those that entered, male and female of all flesh, entered as God had commanded him; and the LORD closed it behind him.
    Son 7:1 "How beautiful are your feet in sandals, O prince's daughter! The curves of your hips are like jewels, The work of the hands of an artist.
    Son 7:2 "Your navel is like a round goblet Which never lacks mixed wine; Your belly is like a heap of wheat Fenced about with lilies.
    Son 7:3 "Your two breasts are like two fawns, Twins of a gazelle.
    Son 7:4 "Your neck is like a tower of ivory, Your eyes like the pools in Heshbon By the gate of Bath-rabbim; Your nose is like the tower of Lebanon, Which faces toward Damascus.
    Son 7:5 "Your head crowns you like Carmel, And the flowing locks of your head are like purple threads; The king is captivated by your tresses.
    Son 7:6 "How beautiful and how delightful you are, My love, with all your charms!
    Son 7:7 "Your stature is like a palm tree, And your breasts are like its clusters.
    Son 7:8 "I said, 'I will climb the palm tree, I will take hold of its fruit stalks.' Oh, may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, And the fragrance of your breath like apples,
    Son 7:9 And your mouth like the best wine!" "It goes down smoothly for my beloved, Flowing gently through the lips of those who fall asleep.
    Son 7:10 "I am my beloved's, And his desire is for me.
    Son 7:11 "Come, my beloved, let us go out into the country, Let us spend the night in the villages.
    Son 7:12 "Let us rise early and go to the vineyards; Let us see whether the vine has budded And its blossoms have opened, And whether the pomegranates have bloomed. There I will give you my love.
    Son 7:13 "The mandrakes have given forth fragrance; And over our doors are all choice fruits, Both new and old, Which I have saved up for you, my beloved.

    October 18, 2012 at 2:28 am |
    • Xenu

      Bob,

      Some axioms were established heuristically in 1938. Work continued to prove or disprove them. At the end of the war in 1945 an effort was started to resolve the work into applicable equations. By 1946 some techniques were evolved and applied to volunteer subjects. By 1948, these techniques were successful in removing compulsions, repressions, neuroses, and psychoses in most patients on an average of 150 hours of application.

      By the use of these axioms certain definite and predictable results can be obtained. Dianetics stands apart from all earlier practice, even when some parts may overlap. Dianetics should be applied as itself and not mixed with earlier practices. Though the scope of Dianetics is much larger, only the aspects applicable to psychosomatic ills and individual aberrations are presented here.

      We place INDEFINITES, such as, spiritualism, deism, telepathy, clairvoyance, human soul, etc. in a category of data, which we do not need to know in order to resolve the aberrations of the human mind.

      To all the DEFINITES, we can assign a dynamic principle of existence, SURVIVE! SURVIVE may be looked upon as to embrace all forms of energy, and as the lowest common denominator of the finite universe. All animals, vegetable, and minerals have an inexorable purpose to survive toward some end.

      [NOTE: Survive is the middle of the curve of Cycle of Action. – VKA]

      SURVIVE leads to LIFE to FORMING A CELL to FORMING A COLONY (JOIN WITH OTHER CELLS) to EXPANDING THE COLONY (BY PROCREATION) to FORMING OTHER COLONIES (BY PROCREATION) to SPECIALIZATION OF COLONIES (BY NECESSITY, MUTATION AND NATURAL SELECTION) to INCREASED COMPLEXITY OF COLONIES to FORMATION OF AGGREGATIONS to PROBLEM OF FOOD, PROTECTION AND PROCREATION to FORMATION OF STANDARDIZED UNITY to POSSESSION OF A CENTRAL CONTROL SYSTEM (by necessity, mutation and natural selection).

      The prime purpose of the control center was the food, defense, protection and means of procreation.

      In surviving, the ultimate success would be immortality, and the ultimate failure would be death. In the middle would be mere existence without hope of much success and without fear of failure. There will be gradations off success above it, and gradations of failure below it.

      [NOTE: This is the concept underlying the TONE SCALE. – VKA]

      No action of the organism will be found to lie without the field of survival, for the organism is acting within its environment upon information received or recorded, and error or failure does not alter the fact that its basic impulse was motivated by survival.

      The primary rule for survival is: THAT THE UNIT SHOULD REMAIN ALIVE AS LONG AS POSSIBLE AS A UNIT AND, BY ASSOCIATION AND PROCREATION, THAT THE SPECIES REMAIN ALIVE AS A SPECIES. Man is the most successful organism currently in existence. His brain has been directing and resolving problems of survival and, therefore, has the primary priority in emergencies.

      The primary facet of personality is the basic strength of the command: SURVIVE (the dynamic drive), which is varied by physiology, environment, and experience. It affects the tenacity of the individual to life, and the activity of the analyzer (mental sensitivity in perceiving and resolving problems, or the intelligence). The DYNAMIC and INTELLIGENCE are two primary factors independent of each other.

      Pleasure is a perception of advance toward the ultimate goal, and pain is a perception of reduction of reach toward that goal. Both are necessary survival factors.

      Good are those things that aid the dynamic drive of the individual, his family, his group, his race, or life in general. It may be defined as constructive. Evil are those things, which tend to limit the dynamic thrust. It may be defined as destructive. The perception of good and evil may be modified by the viewpoint.

      Happiness depends upon making, consolidating, or contemplating gains toward his goal.

      October 18, 2012 at 2:43 am |
    • Bob

      Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."I am my beloved's, And his desire is for me. For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. Sounds pretty natural to me and like God really knew what a true relationship is. In Solomon He even describes how a man and woman's desire should be. He already made all the patterns for a relationship between a man and a woman. Between the physical design, the desire, the pattern of how woman was made are all confirmations on how God thinks and setup a relationship. Yet the lies or slight of word, the false logic all would want you to believe that h0m0 intercourse or relationship is supposedly normal. A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God. So even in clothing God says don't so how do you think a physical relationship, male on male would hold up in front of a Holy God??

      October 18, 2012 at 2:44 am |
    • Mo

      Bob,

      Surah An-Najm :
      {1} By the star when it sets!
      {2} Your companion has not strayed; he is not deluded;
      {3} he does not speak from his own desire.
      {4} It is nothing less than a inspiration that is inspired to him
      {5} It was taught to him by one with mighty powers,
      {6} great strength, who stood
      {7} on the highest horizon
      {8} and then approached––coming down
      {9} until he was two bow-lengths away or even closer
      {10} and revealed to God’s servant what He revealed.
      {11} [The Prophet’s] own heart did not distort what he saw.
      {12} Are you going to dispute with him what he saw?

      October 18, 2012 at 2:48 am |
    • Bob

      MO
      61:14 O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, “Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?” Said the disciples, “We are Allah’s helpers!” then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed.
      In Mark 8:29, Jesus asked his disciples, “Who do you say that I am?”
      That question was, and still is, the most important question all men everywhere must consider. It is the question every Jew must ask of the Torah. It is the question every reader of the New Testament must ask of the Gospels. And it is the question every Muslim should ask of the Qur’an, where Jesus is mentioned nearly 100 times across 15 different Suras.
      Joh 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
      Joh 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.

      October 18, 2012 at 7:24 am |
    • .

      "Ronald Regonzo" who degenerates to:
      "Salvatore" degenerates to:
      "Douglas" degenerates to:
      Taskmaster" degenerates to:
      "truth be told" degenerates to:
      "The Truth" degenerates to:
      "Thinker23" degenerates to:
      "Atheism is not healthy ..." degenerates to:

      "another repentant sinner" degenerates to:
      "Dodney Rangerfield" degenerates to:
      "tina" degenerates to:
      "captain america" degenerates to:
      "Atheist Hunter" degenerates to:
      "Anybody know how to read? " degenerates to:
      "just sayin" degenerates to:
      "ImLook'nUp" degenerates to:
      "Kindness" degenerates to:
      "Lorraine" degenerates to:
      "Chad" degenerates to
      "Bob" degenerates to
      "nope" degenerates to:
      "2357" degenerates to:
      "WOW" degenerates to:
      "fred" degenerates to:
      "!" degenerates to:
      "pervert alert"

      This troll is not a christian..

      October 18, 2012 at 10:27 am |
  18. Lorraine

    tom,tom the piper, get a life, smile a little dang. Let it goooo!

    October 17, 2012 at 8:57 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Moron, why don't YOU let it goooooo?

      October 17, 2012 at 7:54 pm |
  19. Lorraine

    dont worry guys i enjoy watching autin power movies too, lol, lol, talk about perversion,lol again. But, its just a movie, a bit of fun, that's all.

    October 16, 2012 at 2:59 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You're a flippin' idiot.

      October 16, 2012 at 8:48 pm |
  20. YeahRight

    "Clearly there is a lot of abuse in the gay community. The biggest abuse is in the form of brainwashing that claims this is normal behavior. "

    LMAO! There is no brainwashing involved it's the hundred of thousands of experts that have proven the fact that being gay is normal. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

    Social science has shown that the concerns often raised about children of lesbian and gay parents—concerns that are generally grounded in prejudice against and stereotypes about gay people—are unfounded. Overall, the research indicates that the children of lesbian and gay parents do not differ from the children of heterosexual parents in their development, adjustment, or overall well-being.

    October 16, 2012 at 2:09 pm |
    • Anybody know how to read?

      You are stifling scientific inquiry for political reasons. Are Thalidomide babies normal and natural?

      October 16, 2012 at 3:23 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "You are stifling scientific inquiry for political reasons. Are Thalidomide babies normal and natural?"

      Stupidity like this speaks volumes about posts from prejudice bigots on this subject. LMAO!

      October 16, 2012 at 4:20 pm |
    • Bob

      YUP NO BRAINWASHING INVOLVED JUST LYING.

      October 16, 2012 at 7:19 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Anybody who can't read, you're not normal. You're so fascinated by h0mos3xuality that you can hardly stand it.

      October 16, 2012 at 8:51 pm |
    • Bob

      Tomasina your here why??

      October 17, 2012 at 9:07 am |
    • Anybody know how to read?

      Well, TT, since you have named both sides of you brain, it's not surprising you can't see well with your double mindedness. One of your bwains said it was the obsessions of the politicians, AKA PUblic Servants, but you couldn't listen.

      October 17, 2012 at 11:59 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      It's "you're", retarded Boob. I'm here to make sure you and your little dog Anybody look as stupid as possible. Pretty much a walk in the park with you two morons.

      October 17, 2012 at 7:56 pm |
    • ImLook'nUp

      Wow. You're here to make sure other people look stupid? Ain't working, rude one.
      The only pat on the back is the one you give yourself. Enjoy.

      October 17, 2012 at 11:54 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      I succeed every time you post, you dimwit. You and your pal, Boob don't have two brain cells between you. It shows in every sentence you drool here.

      October 18, 2012 at 6:51 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      By the way, dumbbell, your screen name is evidence that you're not exactly a Rhodes Scholar. Try to figure out how to use apostrophes, darling.

      October 18, 2012 at 6:52 pm |
    • ImLook'nUp

      So, being a punctuation queen like you will enable me to reply to posters in a rude fashion like you do? No thanks. I suppose my poor grammar skills keep me humble to the core.

      October 18, 2012 at 11:33 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.