home
RSS
My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage
The author backs same-sex marriage because of his faith, not in spite of it.
May 19th, 2012
02:00 AM ET

My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage

Editor's Note: Mark Osler is a Professor of Law at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

By Mark Osler, Special to CNN

I am a Christian, and I am in favor of gay marriage. The reason I am for gay marriage is because of my faith.

What I see in the Bible’s accounts of Jesus and his followers is an insistence that we don’t have the moral authority to deny others the blessing of holy institutions like baptism, communion, and marriage. God, through the Holy Spirit, infuses those moments with life, and it is not ours to either give or deny to others.

A clear instruction on this comes from Simon Peter, the “rock” on whom the church is built. Peter is a captivating figure in the Christian story. Jesus plucks him out of a fishing boat to become a disciple, and time and again he represents us all in learning at the feet of Christ.

During their time together, Peter is often naïve and clueless – he is a follower, constantly learning.

After Jesus is crucified, though, a different Peter emerges, one who is forceful and bold. This is the Peter we see in the Acts of the Apostles, during a fevered debate over whether or not Gentiles should be baptized. Peter was harshly criticized for even eating a meal with those who were uncircumcised; that is, those who did not follow the commands of the Old Testament.

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

Peter, though, is strong in confronting those who would deny the sacrament of baptism to the Gentiles, and argues for an acceptance of believers who do not follow the circumcision rules of Leviticus (which is also where we find a condemnation of homosexuality).

His challenge is stark and stunning: Before ordering that the Gentiles be baptized Peter asks “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

None of us, Peter says, has the moral authority to deny baptism to those who seek it, even if they do not follow the ancient laws. It is the flooding love of the Holy Spirit, which fell over that entire crowd, sinners and saints alike, that directs otherwise.

My Take: Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality

It is not our place, it seems, to sort out who should be denied a bond with God and the Holy Spirit of the kind that we find through baptism, communion, and marriage. The water will flow where it will.

Intriguingly, this rule will apply whether we see homosexuality as a sin or not. The water is for all of us. We see the same thing at the Last Supper, as Jesus gives the bread and wine to all who are there—even to Peter, who Jesus said would deny him, and to Judas, who would betray him.

The question before us now is not whether homosexuality is a sin, but whether being gay should be a bar to baptism or communion or marriage.

Your Take: Rethinking the Bible on homosexuality

The answer is in the Bible. Peter and Jesus offer a strikingly inclusive form of love and engagement. They hold out the symbols of Gods’ love to all. How arrogant that we think it is ours to parse out stingily!

I worship at St. Stephens, an Episcopal church in Edina, Minnesota. There is a river that flows around the back and side of that church with a delightful name: Minnehaha Creek. That is where we do baptisms.

The Rector stands in the creek in his robes, the cool water coursing by his feet, and takes an infant into his arms and baptizes her with that same cool water. The congregation sits on the grassy bank and watches, a gentle army.

Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter

At the bottom of the creek, in exactly that spot, is a floor of smooth pebbles. The water rushing by has rubbed off the rough edges, bit by bit, day by day. The pebbles have been transformed by that water into something new.

I suppose that, as Peter put it, someone could try to withhold the waters of baptism there. They could try to stop the river, to keep the water from some of the stones, like a child in the gutter building a barrier against the stream.

It won’t last, though. I would say this to those who would withhold the water of baptism, the joy of worship, or the bonds of marriage: You are less strong than the water, which will flow around you, find its path, and gently erode each wall you try to erect.

The redeeming power of that creek, and of the Holy Spirit, is relentless, making us all into something better and new.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Mark Osler.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Christianity • Episcopal • Gay marriage • My Take • Opinion

soundoff (15,115 Responses)
  1. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

    Hey, Boob! How many "tenants" does your religion have, anyway? Is there are limit? Don't the zoning laws apply? Can you have 50 tenants in one apartment–uh, religion?

    My word, you're a moron.

    November 16, 2012 at 6:27 pm |
  2. Lorraine

    Bob i never said that about all of the shepherds, of course there are ones doing the best they can. Many of you are assuming, and speculating what i say, you wont read this book in the beginning, Genesis-Malachi, then read Ezekiel 34, of YHWH's plan for us, and the shepherds. YHWH KNOWS ALL Bob. YHWH BLESS.

    November 16, 2012 at 1:22 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Loopy, every post you write reinforces your image as a complete and utter moron who's mentally unstable.

      November 16, 2012 at 9:36 pm |
    • Lorraine

      Whatever, doo doo bird,bicker, bicker....girllyman, ha! ha! lol.

      November 17, 2012 at 12:13 am |
  3. Bob

    Brent, John,JS,250 ministers ALL SPACE WASTERS ALL LIES GO BEYOND THESE POSTS TO REAL PEOPLE.

    November 16, 2012 at 11:53 am |
    • YeahRight

      Bob is a well known liar on this thread, just ignore their rants they don't want the real truth coming out.

      November 17, 2012 at 8:36 am |
  4. Brent

    " Our current marriage "tradition" is not as old and venerated as some would like to believe. And marriage traditions change and shift over the centuries and from culture to culture."

    Agreed. The term “traditional marriage” is a term employed by anti-gay religious groups and individuals to promote bigotry, prejudice, hostility and discrimination toward gay and lesbian citizens.

    The term is used to justify a social injustice both in terms of denying gay and lesbian individuals equal treatment guaranteed by our Constitution and also denying them human dignity. The use of the term is an action that promotes constitutional unfairness and human indignity and therefore one which is morally wrong.

    If a person of faith agrees that a practice that promotes looking upon a segment of society as inferior, unworthy and undeserving of that which we find as good in our lives, the use of the term “traditional marriage” therefore also must be sinful.

    Regardless of their particular faith, the person would be hard-pressed to say that love, compassion and wanting what is best in our lives for others around us are not the core principles of most religions. When a person of faith stands opposed to those principles, their attitude and actions stand opposed to the principles which they strive to uphold in the everyday interactions with those around them.

    There is also deceit involved in the use of the term “traditional marriage” because those who employ the term attempt to perpetrate an untruth and ulterior motives of hostility and prejudice.

    The untruth comes when “traditional marriage” is offered up as a term that defines a religious concept of a God-blessed union of a young man and woman who fall in love, get married with no prior sexual experience, have children and remain together into old age. They are implying that this is how God ordains marriage.

    If it is, it took him until just 50 years ago to arrive at that conclusion.

    The tradition of marriage in Old Testament times meant the man and his wife could have the same father.

    In the Bible, the patriarch of the Hebrew people, Abraham, and his wife, Sarah, couldn’t have children so Sarah put forth her slave Hagar for Abraham to have children by.

    In Old Testament times, it was normal, sometimes even required for a man to take multiple wives. A man having multiple wives was accepted by the church as late as the 5th Century, 500 years after the teachings set forth in the New Testament. The church for a very long time apparently did not interpret biblical teaching as an edict for one-man, one-woman marriage.

    The tradition of marital unions in the 1700s and 1800s in America doesn’t seem to measure up to God-ordained – especially from the female perspective.

    One third of brides were pregnant at the altar in Concord, Massachusetts during the 20 years prior to the American Revolution.

    In this quote from a wedding couple in 1855, we see that the church had no problem blessing a legal marriage that was considered by many – including this couple – as a violation of the woman’s dignity and civil rights:

    “We believe that personal independence and equal human rights can never be forfeited, except for crime; that marriage should be an equal and permanent partnership, and so recognized by law; that until it is so recognized, married partners should provide against the radical injustice of present laws, by every means in their power…”

    So we can look back and see that religious teachings which uphold the ideals of love, dignity, compassion and respect for each person within marital unions throughout history has taken a back seat.

    In other words, the definition of a God-ordained tradition of marriage has never been constant rather it has evolved.

    History shows us it’s the marital union that should be uplifted…not the evolving traditions of a social institution. In other words, it’s not about how we come together but why.

    Rev. Mark Gallagher, a Unitarian minister, in 2004 asked “what about a marriage could have that quality of spiritual beauty? What makes for sacredness in a marriage?” He names four things.

    “First and foremost, mutual love. A feeling of heightened affection, respect, concern, and appreciation between marital partners. It gives a certain sparkle to the time spent together, and potentially to the entire experience of life. The presence of love makes a marriage sacred.

    “Fidelity contributes to the sacredness of a marriage. Commitments fulfilled. Coming through. Hanging in. Placing the integrity of the relationship over personal preference and convenience. It builds a powerful trust. Fidelity makes a marriage sacred.

    “Intimacy brings sacredness in a marriage. When two people reveal themselves to one another over time, they cannot help but gain acquaintance with the deep regions of the human experience. They get to know one another, of course. But more importantly, they get to know themselves.

    Through relating intimately over time, deeper honesty and authenticity become possible. This is the spiritual journey to know and be known, behind the public charade, however subtle or crude that may be.

    “And forgiveness generates sacredness in a marriage. We all make mistakes and need forgiveness. Our spiritual liberation requires that we become masters of forgiveness letting go of resentment for slights and injuries. The prolonged togetherness of marriage will present myriad opportunities for the practice of forgiveness. When forgiveness flows freely, there is a palpable quality of gentleness and compassion.”

    Does the heterosexual couple uniting in marriage today lift up the union as characterized by love, fidelity, intimacy and forgiveness. We expect they do and we suspect those characteristics as Gallagher concluded in his sermon are what exude sacredness.

    We also know that gay and lesbian couples uphold those same characteristics for their unions. Why would they not? Why would a parent of a gay son or daughter not want their child to enjoy the happiness derived from a lifelong devotion to those characteristics? Why would a brother or sister with a gay sibling not want their brother or sister to enjoy the happiness derived from a lifelong devotion to those characteristics?

    Why would a person of faith not want the gay or lesbian individual to enjoy the happiness derived from the pursuit of marriage sanctity?

    Why would we as Americans not want our government and its laws to recognize that same marriage sanctity for gay and lesbian individuals in their pursuit of liberty and happiness?

    There can be only one reason and that is because many of us have been conditioned by years of misguided church teaching to look upon gay and lesbian individuals as morally inferior, unworthy and therefore undeserving of that which we uphold as good and sanctified in our lives.

    November 16, 2012 at 11:21 am |
  5. JS

    Christians are increasingly divided over the issue of the acceptance and inclusion of gay persons into the church. The debate itself is usually framed as essentially pitting the Bible, on one hand, against compassion and social justice on the other. Our Christian hearts, runs the (usually impassioned) argument, compel us to grant full moral and legal equality to gay and lesbian people; our Christian faith, comes the (usually impassioned) rebuttal, compels us to cleave, above all, to the word of God.

    Compassion for others is the fundamental cornerstone of Christian ethics; the Bible is the bedrock of the Christian faith. What Christian can possibly choose between the two?

    The answer is that no Christian is called upon to make that choice. The text of the Bible on one hand, and full equality for gay and lesbian people on the other, is a false dichotomy. God would not ask or expect Christians to ever choose between their heart and their faith.

    Reconciling the Bible with unqualified acceptance and equality for LGBT people does not necessitate discounting, recasting, deconstructing or reinterpreting the Bible. All it takes is reading those passages of the Bible wherein homosexuality is mentioned with the same care we would any other passage of the book.

    We can trust God; we can trust that God is loving.

    And we can trust that we can - and that we certainly should - take God, in this matter, as in all things, at his Word.

    If there is no clearly stated directive in the Bible to marginalize and ostracize gay people, then Christians continuing to do so is morally indefensible, and must cease.

    What cannot be denied is that Christians have caused a great deal of pain and suffering to gay persons, by:

    Banning their participation in the church, thus depriving them of the comforts and spiritual fruits of the church;

    Banning their participation in the sacrament of marriage, thus depriving them of the comforts and spiritual fruits of marriage;

    Damaging the bonds between gays and their straight family members, thus weakening the comforts and spiritual fruits of family life for both gays and their families; and

    Using their position within society as spokespersons for God to proclaim that all homosexual relations are disdained by God, thus knowingly contributing to the cruel persecution of a minority population.

    Christians do not deny that they have done these things. However, they contend that they have no choice but to do these things, based on what they say is a clear directive about homosexuals delivered to them by God through the Holy Bible. They say that the Bible defines all homosexual acts as sinful, instructs them to exclude from full participation in the church all non-repentant sinners (including gay people), and morally calls upon them to publicly (or at least resolutely) denounce homosexual acts.

    Without an explicit directive from God to exclude and condemn homosexuals, the Christian community's treatment of gay persons is in clear violation of what Jesus and the New Testament writers pointedly identified as the most important commandment from God: to love one's neighbor as one's self.

    The gay community has cried out for justice to Christians, who have a biblically mandated obligation to be just. Because the mistreatment of gay persons by Christians is so severe, the directive from God to marginalize and ostracize gay people must be clear and explicit in the Bible. If there is no such clearly stated directive, then the continued Christian mistreatment of gay and lesbian people is morally indefensible, and must cease.

    The Bible is not a contract, or a set of instructions, with each passage spelling out something clear and specific. It is not a rulebook for being Christian. It is instead a widely varying collection of poetry, history, proverbs, moral directives, parables, letters and wondrous visions. We would be foolish to fail to understand that not everything in the Bible is a commandment, and that Christians cannot take any small section of the Bible out of its own context, and still hope to gain a clear understanding of its meaning.

    We can be confident that Paul was not writing to, or about, gay people, because he simply could not have been, any more than he could have written about smart phones or iPads. We do not know what Paul might write or say today about gay people. All we know is that in the New Testament he wrote about promiscuous, predatory, non-consensual same-sex acts between heterosexuals.

    If we are to rely on the Bible, then we must take its text as it is. It does condemn homosexual (and heterosexual) sex that is excessive, exploitive and outside of marriage. It does not, however, address the state of homosexuality itself - much less the subject of homosexual acts between a married gay couple. Christians therefore have no Bible-based moral justification for themselves condemning such acts.

    Because there was no concept of gay marriage when the Bible was written, the Bible does not, and could not, address the sinfulness of homosexual acts done within the context of gay marriage.

    The Bible routinely, clearly and strongly classifies all sex acts outside of the bonds of marriage as sinful. But, because there was no concept of gay people when the Bible was written, the Bible does not, and could not, address the sinfulness of homosexual acts done within the context of marriage. Christians therefore have no biblical basis for themselves condemning such acts.

    In fact, by denying marriage equality to gay people, Christians are compelling gay couples to sin, because their intimacy must happen outside of marriage, and is therefore, by biblical definition, sinful.

    Being personally repelled by homosexual sex doesn't make homosexual sex a sin.

    Christians cite as additional evidence of the inherent sinfulness of homosexual acts their raw emotional response to such acts. It is understandable that many straight people find homosexual sex repugnant (just as many gay people find heterosexual sex repugnant). It is normal for any one of us to be viscerally repelled by the idea of sex between, or with, people for whom we personally have no sexual attraction. It may feel to a straight Christian that their instinctive negative reaction to homosexual sex arises out of the Bible. But all of us necessarily view the Bible through the lens of our own experiences and prejudices, and we must be very careful to ensure that lens does not distort our vision or understanding of God's sacrosanct word.

    "The greatest of these is love."

    The overriding message of Jesus was love! Jesus modeled love; Jesus preached love; Jesus was love. Christians desiring to do and live the will of Jesus are morally obliged to always err on the side of love.

    November 16, 2012 at 11:16 am |
    • Chad

      At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

      But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

      9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

      11 “No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

      Jesus never called sin by any other name...

      November 16, 2012 at 9:09 pm |
    • Observer

      Chad,

      Jesus, who never married or even dated and hung around with 12 men, never condemned h0mose-xuality. He did have much to say about heteros and a lot of it was bad, but let's ignore that.

      November 16, 2012 at 9:49 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Chard is such a sad example of denial. If only he'd admit to his predilections.

      November 16, 2012 at 9:51 pm |
  6. John

    "NOTE: Celibacy only applies to LGBTQ folks who are practicing Christians."

    Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.

    Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.

    There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.

    Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.

    Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?

    Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).

    That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex.

    November 16, 2012 at 11:15 am |
  7. myweightinwords

    As this is a topic that has an impact on my daily life, as an individual with a license to marry people in the state of California, and recognizing that this article specifically deals with helping Christians understand how the bible might be interpreted differently, I feel the need to also point out a few things:

    1) The laws of our nation are not based in any religion.
    2) The laws of our nation guarantee all of its citizen the freedom to worship, or not, as our conscience guides us.
    3) Not all religions condemn same gender relationships, some even celebrate them.
    4) "Tradition" is not a good reason to avoid change. "We've always done it this way" does not mean that there isn't a better way.
    5) Our current marriage "tradition" is not as old and venerated as some would like to believe. And marriage traditions change and shift over the centuries and from culture to culture.
    6) There is not one single reason not based in religion to deny marriage to same gender couples. Not one.

    November 16, 2012 at 11:10 am |
    • Bob

      If I were gay or bi I would say the same thing but all of what you said is false, with the exception that some churches allow gay marriage, which is true but false according to the tenants of the Bible and God. Because in the Bible there is no justification for gay marriage

      November 16, 2012 at 11:41 am |
    • Melvin

      "Because in the Bible there is no justification for gay marriage"

      The Scriptures at no point deal with homosexuality as an authentic sexual orientation, a given condition of being. The remarkably few Scriptural references to "homosexuality" deal rather with homosexual acts, not with homosexual orientation. Those acts are labeled as wrong out of the context of the times in which the writers wrote and perceived those acts to be either nonmasculine, idolatrous, exploitative, or pagan. The kind of relationships between two consenting adults of the same sex demonstrably abounding among us - relationships that are responsible and mutual, affirming and fulfilling - are not dealt with in the Scriptures.

      November 16, 2012 at 11:44 am |
    • myweightinwords

      Hi Bob,

      Would you care to point out to me which part is false? And with more than just you saying so?
      1)) The laws of our nation are not based in any religion.
      2) The laws of our nation guarantee all of its citizen the freedom to worship, or not, as our conscience guides us.

      These are both a matter of public record. One need only read the constitution to know this is true.

      3) Not all religions condemn same gender relationships, some even celebrate them.

      Most non-Ambrahamic religions don't have a problem with same gender relationships. Many indigenous religions have respect for them and embrace them freely. A little research reveals this easily.

      4) "Tradition" is not a good reason to avoid change. "We've always done it this way" does not mean that there isn't a better way.

      This is just common sense.

      5) Our current marriage "tradition" is not as old and venerated as some would like to believe. And marriage traditions change and shift over the centuries and from culture to culture.

      A little study of history reveals that as little as 150 years ago marriage was very different from what it is now. Go back a little further and most people didn't "get married"...that was reserved for the upper class. Not that hard to prove.

      6) There is not one single reason not based in religion to deny marriage to same gender couples. Not one.

      If this is false, give me one reason that is not grounded in religion.

      November 16, 2012 at 11:53 am |
    • myweightinwords

      Because in the Bible there is no justification for gay marriage

      Which doesn't matter because our laws are not written in nor based on the bible.

      November 16, 2012 at 11:54 am |
  8. Lorraine

    They won't let me post my reply OF HISTORICAL FACTS again to THE POSTER 'end religion' AND OTHERS, so that is evidence of denial of the truth, its obvious. Jeremiah 23:1-8, the YHWH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS MOVEMENT is written right in this book of remembrance, the so called OT. This is no Religion. All religions are man made, IDOLATRY, and not of the King YHWH.

    November 16, 2012 at 10:08 am |
    • AtheistSteve

      So is the Bible. It is 100% man made. And look up the definition of the word "religion". Religion is what people who believe in a supernatural creator god practice. You can't quote crap from the Bible and claim not to be religious.
      And just for the record ....nothing in the Bible is evidence for anything. It's a story book...a mythological fairy tale. Textual accounts of supernatural events aren't proof. It doean't matter if places or people mentioned might be actually historical because places and people actually exist. Magical or miraculous events are not.

      November 16, 2012 at 10:22 am |
    • Lorraine

      atheiststeve, well, then the american history is also supernatural, and has no evidence. until you look it up, you are just talking, TRY TO substantiate. With the Persian king Arterxerse, you'll find that he and Nehemiah a prophet of YHWH were in the same historical times working together, along with Ezra the prophet, look it up, this is in the american history. What about king David, and king Solomon, are you saying to deny them as well, but it is substantiated that David wrote most of the book of Psalm.

      And if one can't see this then so be it; we all have our choices right? YHWH IS alive, or one will know this soon, taught in the book of Joel, a future prophesy, and in Isaiah 51:5, His righteousness is near, from now, and 2016, it will be known who He is.Future prophesy. Everything that is going on 'today' was prophesied, read Genesis-Malachi, and it is going on as we speak, 1example 'gay marriage' and other occurrences, all prophesied would happen. It's all falling in place as scheduled, SOON, by YHWH. YHWH BLESS.

      November 16, 2012 at 11:08 am |
    • End Religion

      In the comic books Spiderman lives in New York. New York exists and you can read about it in history books. Does that make Spiderman real?

      November 16, 2012 at 9:01 pm |
  9. Douglas

    NOTE: Celibacy only applies to LGBTQ folks who are practicing Christians.
    If you are LGBTQ and are not interested in the Christian faith there is nothing to stop you from the
    pursuit of fornication.

    Amber, one of our senior lesbian counselors, asked me to clarify this point for the audience.

    Thanks and good night.

    – Douglas

    November 15, 2012 at 9:31 pm |
    • mama k

      Celibacy is unnatural and harmful. There are plenty of Christian churches that fully accept gays as they are. Do your homework before getting involved in the celibacy game with extremists.

      November 16, 2012 at 1:55 am |
    • Bob

      Yes there are plenty of churches that take gays but they do not accept gay fornication, or marriage. So mummy you might want to wake up. Douglas kind of hit you where it hurts doesn't he when he talks about self control? Oh it is so hard for you.

      November 16, 2012 at 3:21 am |
    • Bob

      Counselors don't know the consequences of fornication either for straight or gay there is always reason not to engage in this activity. Doug as fasting brings the answers from God you have given up a this activity to stay faithful, now call on God like you never have before and see what he will do for you. I believe He will honor you for your faithfulness.

      November 16, 2012 at 10:29 am |
    • James

      "Celibacy only applies to LGBTQ folks who are practicing Christians."

      No it doesn't. The scriptures actually say nothing about homosexuality as a psychosexual orientation. Our understandings of sexual orientation are distinctly modern ones that were not present in the minds of Scripture writers. A few passages of Scripture (seven at the most) object to certain types of same-sex expressions or acts. The particular acts in question, however, are sexual expressions which are exploitative, oppressive, commercialized, or offensive to ancient purity rituals. There is no Scriptural guidance for same-sex relationships which are loving and mutually respecting. Guidelines for these relationships should come from the same general Scriptural norms that apply to heterosexual relationships.

      November 16, 2012 at 11:14 am |
    • 250 Ministers Proclamation

      "Yes there are plenty of churches that take gays but they do not accept gay fornication, or marriage."

      As Christian clergy we proclaim the Good News concerning Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) persons and publicly apologize where we have been silent. As disciples of Jesus, who assures us that the truth sets us free, we recognize that the debate is over. The verdict is in. Homosexuality is not a sickness, not a choice, and not a sin. We find no rational biblical or theological basis to condemn or deny the rights of any person based on sexual orientation. Silence by many has allowed political and religious rhetoric to monopolize public perception, creating the impression that there is only one Christian perspective on this issue. Yet we recognize and celebrate that we are far from alone, as Christians, in affirming that LGBT persons are distinctive, holy, and precious gifts to all who struggle to become the family of God.

      In repentance and obedience to the Holy Spirit, we stand in solidarity as those who are committed to work and pray for full acceptance and inclusion of LGBT persons in our churches and in our world. We lament that LGBT persons are condemned and excluded by individuals and institutions, political and religious, who claim to be speaking the truth of Christian teaching. This leads directly and indirectly to intolerance, discrimination, suffering, and even death. The Holy Spirit compels us:

      -to affirm that the essence of Christian life is not focused on sexual orientation, but how one lives by grace in relationship with God, with compassion toward humanity;

      –to embrace the full inclusion of our LGBT brothers and sisters in all areas of church life, including leadership;

      –to declare that the violence must stop. Christ’s love moves us to work for the healing of wounded souls who are victims of abuse often propagated in the name of Christ;

      –to celebrate the prophetic witness of all people who have refused to let the voice of intolerance and violence speak for Christianity, especially LGBT persons, who have met hatred with love;

      Therefore we call for an end to all religious and civil discrimination against any person based on sexual orientation and gender identity and expression. All laws must include and protect the freedoms, rights, and equal legal standing of all persons, in and outside the church.

      November 16, 2012 at 11:19 am |
  10. Lorraine

    i never said i hate religious people, only that religions are all IDOLATRY, forked tongue 'end religion' stop lying gossip men

    November 15, 2012 at 9:06 pm |
    • End Religion

      First, I don't think I said hate. Second, is this you or not?

      November 15, 2012 at 10:07 pm |
    • End Religion

      My comments were about the video. The person in it speaks about "annoying religious people" @1:45. Then @5:15 she says "it's all about religions coming together and camaraderie."

      I do want you to know, Lorraine, that as much as you've used the word hate when others have not, it is a part of your religious persecution complex. I do not hate you or other religious people simply for the fact they are religious. It would take a lot more than that, as I don't come by hate easily. I do enjoy pointing out religious hypocrisy, easy as it is to come by. I do hope religious people will see their delusion for what it is. But there isn't any hate in it, believe it or not.

      When you speak about the word of god you are in error. You don't have any idea what the word of god is. No one does. Even if you accept the fact he inspired some people with stories, those stories were told word of mouth and evolved, then were written in languages and translated, which you have to understand means some words may not even be in another language. Whatever version of the bible you hold holy, and there are many for the various branches of your cult, it is not the word of god but has been corrupted by man. If one believes a god told this story, one can never know what those original words were. So to continue to jab at us that you are the only one who knows the truth and then base that "truth" on the false words of the bible is simply laughable. You're smart enough to understand what I am saying without falling back plugging your ears and chanting something about YHWH knows all or whatever.

      November 15, 2012 at 10:27 pm |
    • Bob

      There is a religious spirit that blinds people to the truth of God. Like all demonic spirits its purpose is to subvert the word. Make people lose their way, stop people from enjoying the walk with the Lord. The tools are pride, arrogance, self righteousness, self abasement and there are more but a person in deception cannot be swayed easily. It is probably one of the hardest things to break free from because it claims righteousness and truth yet is the farthest away from both. The Scribes and Pharisees both used righteousness as a weapon to declare themselves better than everyone else. Righteousness is not attained by man but given by God it is a gift and as any gift we need to be grateful to the giver and understand it is not something we can work for. By ritual,dogmas and having to act a certain way, men were supposed to be made Holy but that is not of God. Religion is man taking another mans desire to serve the Lord and making him subservient to a set of rules. This is why Jesus said my yolk is light and my burden easy and no flesh will be justified. These burdensome rituals were only concerned with the body and not the spirit. No work of the flesh makes man righteous.
      Freedom, We actually do hear from God, in your assumption you were almost correct whey you said why wouldn't God just tell you. But incorrect when you said no one can know what God thinks. Even in this God gave directions on how to hear, if you have ever read a Bible you will notice the amount of "if's" in it. This means do this and you will get this result. The problem is not that God doesn't talk to us but that we don't recognize it, seek it , or follow it. That small voice gets drowned out. The desire to know God is not in us unless He has been speaking to us. It like anything even walking needs training on how to hear God. Jesus said But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.Without this precious third person of the trinity our walk is mostly religious.

      November 16, 2012 at 3:15 am |
    • Lorraine

      Endreligion, y ou are an idiot, and you have falsely advertised me as someone else, this is not me, and this person have never met, or ever known of her, look stop spreading this lie, and from what she says she definitely does not have the views of YHWH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS MOVEMENT, 1-773-874-0325, to get the truth. This woman has no affiliation of the Movement, none. Don't slander my words like this, you are wrong. Get it right. Religions are IDOLATRY, and not of YHWH. YHWH BLESS.

      November 16, 2012 at 9:37 am |
    • Bob

      Lorraine faith without works is dead just as love without showing it is also dead that is called religion. Just as the Muslims don't have anything to show for their faith in a god why would anyone want to put on themselves another set of rules and regulations and not get anything out of it. Why did Jesus do works of healing, miracles and deliverance because he wanted to show He was from God and has the authority over all principalities and powers. I don't care what you think of Him but the works He did are written in more than one book. If you don't believe in Him then believe in the miracles He did. God performed miracles so we could know His power and authority it is written in all books and as He delivered His people from Egypt He also demonstrated His power. So why subject yourself or anyone to a dead religion that has no help or demonstration of power?? That is religion in its finest with no evidence of who you worship being the one true God. If more would demonstrate this power instead of just collecting money we wouldn't have blogs like this.

      November 16, 2012 at 10:16 am |
    • Lorraine

      This woman in this video, has no idea what the 'TRUTH IS' she is lost, and mislead like many of the masses who are into Religions not of YHWH. Never would i call YHWH, yehway, or whatever, all of these transliterations are NOT HIS NAME; and this is why YHWH gives us the scripture in Ezekiel 36:22,23, about how He's angered of His name being profaned.

      By the way the only 'Son' and Firstborn Son, that YHWH tells us of is in Exodus 4:22,23, and it is 'ISRAEL' the chosen 12 tribes of Jacob (aka,'Israel') taught in Genesis 49. I've said this over, and over, are any of you even reading this book? Learn the truth, and read Genesis-Malachi, and Malachi is the last prophet until 'this day' Look it up yourself, research, substantiate. As in the book of Jeremiah 26, the king Jehoiakim, look it up, you will find that the american history times matche. YHWH BLESS.

      November 16, 2012 at 10:26 am |
    • /o\

      Lorraine. Care to wrap your forked tongue around my religion?

      November 16, 2012 at 10:30 am |
    • Lorraine

      Bob, this is a myth, this jc is not, nor his story mentioned nowhere in the OT by none of the true prophets. 'miracles' this is not ever mentioned, are you even reading this book from the beginning, or do you allow the false 'shepherds' to just tell u to 'believe?' This is not right. Moses in Deuteronomy 5, taught us what YHWH wanted for us to do, YHWH knows all, and Does All, and has never changed any of this Word, confirmed in Deuteronomy 4, all the way to the last prophet Malachi 4:4, for us to do this 'Law' the 10 commandments. There is no hate here, only love for righteousness to all.

      No one can save another's sins, we are all responsible for our own righteousness, in Ezekiel 14:14-20. Why would the King YHWH say this then turn right around in a separated book, and change His word, YHWH changes Not, in Malachi 3:6, none of His word. Look it up in a strong concordance bible. What YHWH has for us in the 10 commandments is righteousness, and peace to give to among us all, and to ourselves. And of course to do the ordinances of the true passover in Exodus 12, and the Sabbath Leviticus 23, this has not changed Bob. Im sorry you have been misled taught in Jeremiah 23, Isaiah 24:5, of this change, 'NEWLY' RAISED, prophesied in Deuteronomy 32:17, against YHWH not of His Word. Praise YHWH.

      THIS IS FOR ALL ISAIAH 56. THE CHOSEN ARE FOR THE LIGHT UNTO THE PEOPLE; but if they don't do right, they to are not with YHWH. YHWH BLESS.

      November 16, 2012 at 10:49 am |
    • Bob

      The law of sin and death no one can fulfill the requirements to live a sinless blame less life. There are other books like Antiquities of the Jews that you can read that are a testimony to the acts of Jesus. God does not change in His love for us nor His protection over us, but since the law could make no one righteous God has made a better way. To assume that we know God good enough to qualify a way that He is going makes us god. But to those who listen He grants the gifts that He has promised with miracles and freedom. Our God is not dead but alive and able to do exceedingly abundantly beyond all we ask or hope for. If He is God then He is able to keep us from stumbling and able to guide us in our walk so that the power shown through His prophets will be shown in us. If we love Him it is not a dry walk, He calls us sheep and that is very derogatory but as the shepherd He keeps His flock. I cannot imagine a sheep telling the Shepard we always went that way and that's the way we are going otherwise you are not my shepherd.

      November 16, 2012 at 11:37 am |
    • Lorraine

      Bo b, you are talking about apocgrapha books, there is no way i would accept anything from those new books, taught in Ecclesiastes 12, and this is not of jewish belief, there is no star of david with YHWH, no haneka, none of that crap in in the OT Genesis-Malachi. Those books were written, or rewritten, in the lst, 2nd, and 3rd centuries, are you kidding me? The closest book to truth in Yhwh Our Righteousness is the KJV 1611, is what's read in the Movement of Jeremiah 23:1-8.

      And when you read in mathew you see that there is no conception of the 'SEED' of David there, it says 'holyghost' and there is no mentioning of 'ANY' holyghost in the so called OT by none of the true prophets of YHWH. And if the prophets can prophesied 200 years before a thing happens, and even prophesied from the 6th century until NOW, the book of Daniel, then why isn't jc written in the OT, or his story, or mary, or any of the deciples names, for everyone else's names are there. wake up.

      From Moses to Joshua, to David they were in a war with the Ammonites, Amaleks all through history Exodus 17:14-16, for generations to now this spiritual war is between YHWH, and His enemies in Psalm 83, and Psalm 37. YHWH has no secrect from us, its right there in Genesis-Malachi. There is no mention of jc, only the 'seed of David' whose 'seed' will be upon the thrown(metaphor), but he will be chosen from out of Bethlehem Judah from the chosen people, and firstborn son of YHWH, 'ISRAEL' Exodus 4:22, and in Micah 5:1,2, go back to I Samuel chapters 16,17, and David the 'child' was born that YHWH was looking for; but in mathew 2:1,2, it says jc is born from Beth. (judea) a jew, not a Hebrew ISRAELITE. Substantiate don't just believe. No matter how much evidence of scripture i give you are in denial. YHWH BLESS.

      November 16, 2012 at 12:25 pm |
    • Lorraine

      TO ADD: WE AT YHWH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS EVEN DISCERN THIS BOOK THE KJV 1611, TAUGHT IN MICAH 7, THAT U MUST SUBSTANTIATE WHAT IS WRITTEN. THEREFORE, THROUGH THE ANOINTING FROM YHWH IS HOW WE ARE TAUGHT TO KNOW.

      November 16, 2012 at 12:29 pm |
    • Lorraine

      correction: Psalm 137, skipping comp keys

      November 16, 2012 at 12:44 pm |
    • End Religion

      Lorraine, someone else posted this was you. I am asking, is this you. I don't know if it is or isn't. You say it isn't and that's good enough for me.

      Now back to all your personal insanity (which sounds an awful lot like the insanity of the person in the video).

      November 16, 2012 at 9:03 pm |
    • End Religion

      "Never would i call YHWH, yehway, or whatever, all of these transliterations are NOT HIS NAME; and this is why YHWH gives us the scripture in Ezekiel 36:22,23, about how He's angered of His name being profaned."

      so above all else, in your cult, the most important thing is to get god's name right?

      November 16, 2012 at 9:06 pm |
  11. lionlylamb

    My Words for Truth

    What was first made can never again become that which was first made for only in varying differential constructs can another thing be made to be outdone against that which was firstly made. The pillars of one's DNA, the spirals of all celestial life forms and formations is where God's Sons and their given wives are taken in as residents there abouts. The Kingdoms of God lay where the inner structures of celestial Life do share in the abundancies of Living Fractals in Cosmological Paradigms. As mankinds' hunting for the codifying of Life's laws of cellularized confinements continues onwards, we will ever become non-complacent in our societal grandeurs for wants sakes never to be outdone by those who tend to be in simplifications' adjuring. May we be merciful upon those who deservidely aspire to be merciful toward others.

    A scattering is upon us in these trying days and Age. Leave your wantings behind and never take wind of one's longings for the weightiness of one's longings will smite even the most influential. Carry away nothing and leave. Head to the places inside one's being and do not keep ajar your door for many will want to enter in and should not. Your loving this Life is for the world to have and you should not heed the rumors from others as to just what is truly right. It is therefore best for mankind to simmer in their juvenile pottages never rationalizingly 'assaying' one's diffuse detriments, the very smallest of life's grains. As smitten breeds, our splendors reveal one's characters to be traitorous to one's analogous fold. Where then does Life end and living begin?

    Who before this day's Age is found worthy of Goodly praises? Who after us will find peace set before them? Who in today;s timeline is this "son of man" that many should fear him for his worthiness stance? Who above can see the below? Who that is below can see what be above? From the very smallest crevice to the most high chasms, the Sea of Nothingness is the Holy Spirit. May the elemental Gods find favor in this found son of man that he may not be afflicted with this world's power but rather he should carry upon him the angst from his manhood till his natural death.

    What I spiritually believe in is that the Families of God including God Himself lives upon the very first created Cosmos which is the inner Cosmos. Our being but upon this celestial cosmos is due our being cast out of the Inner Cosmos for many reasons. Some were cast out of this Inner Cosmos for faultering and some for continuing to do the Lord's Will here upon this celestial realm of gigantic life forms whereupon their insides are living many families of God's members. We live upon this realm doing what we want while many of us unify ourselves in the communal. My way is not your way and yet when we cross paths we receive each other and after a spell do walk on and are parted.Therefore, walk placidly amid the noise and waste ever being mindful of the peace one finds in finding peace there about.

    Is God to be made a mockery by those who tend to instill anti-leveraged pragmatisms? Are we to believe in the godless and the ungodly who care little about the piecemeal subjectives' ordinates?

    Jesus, was the very first of many immeasurable 'elemental beings' and was in the Beginning an elemental king of all the elemental Gods. Jesus, in His cunning, did thru Chaos' manueverings, established the gravimetrical waves for the elementals to gather in broods thusly was formed the beginnings of celestial nebulas.

    As time did force the nebulas to progressively surround the gravimetric oscillations where from did come about galactic formations of the elementals' soundness. As systems of photonic elementals, the infinitesimal finite elemental Gods did shower the solarized systems with their embodied beings. And in the Now, we are but made from the photonic elementals' stillnesses, the stardusts of the Ages.

    My "Physicist" knows very well the quantum physicalities of natured atomic stimulations. I call this "Physicist" God. He has strewn His Sea of Nothingness with 'photogenitisms' or the stillness of the photons creating all manner of the first materials needed to become thru timeliness all the elementals' members of our declared Periodic Table of Materialized Photogenitis.

    Sciences are but the dreams dreamt and are atheists' treasure troves of good books they hardly ever do read, for many atheists aren't too bright yet they stand by these scientists without one iota of deniability to question science books that even the commoner seldom reads nor truly understands. Who among us knows about the 'Self-Similar Cosmological Paradigm'? Who among us truly understands that energy equals mass times light squared and its' true potential? What is the point in adoring scientific reasoning when one's IQ level can be counted on ten fingers?

    I feel a compelling want to tell you about some verses in Gospel scripture. Is it not written to above all things to seek firstly the "Kingdom of God". This said, have you ascribed to doing so? Where does one look to or towards in order to find that which we are told to seek as scripture does declare one to do?

    Mathew 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God."

    I've searched the Gospel writings and have found a single verse telling all who have found it as to the true and literal location of God's Kingdomly Domains!

    Luk 17:21 "The kingdom of God is inside you."

    I take Luke 17:21 quite literally and so should all who believe in One God and His One Son of perhaps oodles upon oodles of otherly Sons and Daughters too numerous to really expound upon! Christ is special because he was born to take upon his being the sins of those who were and then were also and of times yet to come! God's Kingdoms being inside us and within our ownliness bodies can also be associated with another verse of scripture ,,,,

    ,
    1Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.

    The just above verse does tell much more than just glimpsing over it could proclude! Our being labourers with God may well seem to give us all an equal footing with God and his aspirations for our betterment's sakes! His being our husbandry may well regard God as having a firm footing in our conceptions of childbirthing beyond mere genetic understandings!

    But in the aboveness verse, the very understanding that we or our bodies are God's buildings may well inspire one to disavow such a claim due one's foresightedness sakes and lacking of rationalisms' of credible resources. Yet, as I see things, we, our bodies are not only God established and God created buildings for the benefits of the Godly who reside inside of us, but are for our benefits for learning and understanding the precepts of "Fractal Cosmologies"!

    We have seen that which our bodies are made up of and they are of cellularized structures not "unlike" nebula structures in outer space places! These celestial nebula structures are yet a work-in-progress and our body-like buildings are a progress in the works!

    These words are revelations of my Faith as to my Godly understandings regarding the Kingdom Domains of God, his Sons and his Daughters and all forms and mannerisms of Life-ever-lasting principles and principalities of ever living progressives!

    Written by God's Oldest Dreamer

    November 15, 2012 at 7:51 pm |
  12. FYI

    If anyone is interested in seeing Lorraine and her pals:

    http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=bK4zaa8VyWo

    (or if you are wary of hyperlinks, just Google "lorraine vision yhwh")

    November 15, 2012 at 3:20 pm |
    • Lorraine

      No, don't need pals pal,...lol, welcome my new hater. he, he, lol.

      November 15, 2012 at 4:23 pm |
    • == o ==

      It's a shame that Rod Serling or Alfred Hitchcock are not around to listen to Lorraine. I'm sure they'd appreciate some new "material" to work with. Of course, if Stephen King reads some of her rant – he might consider some plans for Carrie 2 – the Help.

      November 15, 2012 at 6:11 pm |
    • End Religion

      Every nut has her soapbox, and now thanks to YouTube we can see everyone's soapbox. I always want to give these folks some time to see what they have to say but I can only watch so much of the same word salad over and over. I watched the first 5 minutes. Same word salad, different dressing. Another nut who claims the same as hundreds of thousands of others: she's the only one who knows the "truth".

      November 15, 2012 at 6:21 pm |
    • End Religion

      I forgot to mention that even in that first 5 minutes she talks about how she can't stand religious people. Huh? If you're rambling about god, you're religious. If you're religious and believe in god and preach about love, love, love, why would one of the first sentences out of your mouth be that you can't stand any kind of people? Doesn't sound like love to me.

      November 15, 2012 at 6:24 pm |
    • Lorraine

      -0-,Endreligion&fly, how dumb to think that YHWH IS religion, and don't lie i never mentioned god, for that is what idols are. YHWH IS KING THE SUPREME BEING . a bunch of educated fools, you have never seen them describe YHWH as a religion stop lying...even the enemy knows better than that, you ponds; look it up fool, don't get Him confused with that idol jc, and get off the 'good ship jesus' for a change, and maybe you all won't be so confused. Selah!! Praise YHWH.

      ps. line up all haters....

      November 15, 2012 at 7:37 pm |
    • midwest rail

      " Therefore, this conversation is redundant, and im going to move on to another topic. Praise YHWH. " And yet here you are, regurgitating the same nonsense. Again. Liar.

      November 15, 2012 at 7:40 pm |
    • Lorraine

      Lorraine

      midwesttrail, AGAIN DOOFUS, and what about it i did not lie, i was replied to so i anserwed, keep up, and focus, i did do another topic by the way, and as many liars here about righteousness, somebody has to tell the truth. new world order, well until we see the end of this don't be so quick to gloat, for things, are going just as planned according to this book's prophecy. These things are allowed for a very good reason, i like to tell it the truth that's all, its my zeal. Don't let it bother you, seems like being professional liars, it should'nt faze one at this point. Seeing how many here should be celebrating the man's law allowing gay marriage, what do you want from me, im just enjoying what i do, the word of YHWH, don't hate, and don't lie, this is a man's law admit it STOP LYING, ha,ha. YHWH BLESS.

      November 15, 2012 at 8:42 pm |
    • End Religion

      "-0-,Endreligion&fly, how dumb to think that YHWH IS religion"

      what do you call rambling about the "creator" from the bible?

      ***
      "YHWH IS KING THE SUPREME BEING"

      OK, so let me get this straight. YHWH is not god but he is the supreme being? I know cults like to redefine words, so are there any others I should know about? I will assume for you "truth" has been redefined to mean "something i strongly believe without fact" whereas in reality truth would be based on fact. Any other redefinitions?

      ***
      "a bunch of educated fools, you have never seen them describe YHWH as a religion stop lying..."

      I don't know what you call your cult, but you have a god, er, supreme being and you praise it. You have a set of beliefs about the god, er, supreme being. That qualifies as religion for me.

      ***
      "ps. line up all haters...."

      Hate is a strong word. I don't hate you. Your delusion is entertaining.

      November 15, 2012 at 10:36 pm |
  13. Lorraine

    James, yeahwrong, you are both in denial, all the fancy words in the world is not going to change the law of the Creator YHWH. N ow i have said this will work with the law of mankind, fine, but the book of remembrance is clear, it is not allowed under the Holy One, and stop lying about a Holiness code, where is that code, give the scripture, the law in what jurisdiction? YHWH has never changed His law of man. And this is no religion, it is doing 'right' by righteousnes, the normal way of procreation, and life. But again, going by man's law, well do as one will, but it is not of YHWH, stop lying. I can say 'the new out of order in the world' lol, calling it good, 'perverseness' is not right, in Isaiah 59. Ottherwise this is just blind denial, im agreeing that its a law of man, and you can't get no more clearer than it is not ever allowed by the King YHWH. PRAISE YHWH.

    November 15, 2012 at 2:52 pm |
    • midwest rail

      " Therefore, this conversation is redundant, and im going to move on to another topic. Praise YHWH. " And yet here you are, regurgitating the same nonsense. Again. Liar.

      November 15, 2012 at 2:55 pm |
    • Lorraine

      midwesttrail, and what about it i did not lie, i was replied to so i anserwed, keep up, and focus, i did do another topic by the way, and as many liars here about righteousness, somebody has to tell the truth. new world order, well until we see the end of this don't be so quick to gloat, for things, are going just as planned according to this book's prophecy. These things are allowed for a very good reason, i like to tell it the truth that's all, its my zeal. Don't let it bother you, seems like being professional liars, it should'nt faze one at this point. Seeing how many here should be celebrating the man's law allowing gay marriage, what do you want from me, im just enjoying what i do, the word of YHWH, don't hate, and don't lie, this is a man's law admit it STOP LYING, ha,ha. YHWH BLESS.

      November 15, 2012 at 3:14 pm |
    • midwest rail

      Your reply is utter gibberish.

      November 15, 2012 at 3:17 pm |
    • Lorraine

      midwestail, And so are you... gibberish, but yet you responded to it, my post ha!

      November 15, 2012 at 4:20 pm |
    • End Religion

      According to nutters, god is perfect. He created gay folks. How can it be wrong? Men wrote the bible. You seem to clearly understand man has corrupted whatever religion "originally" was. Why is it so hard for you to see that the bible is another corrupt manmade thing, and your perfect god created gay folks just the way they are?

      November 15, 2012 at 6:37 pm |
  14. Don

    The most beautiful word in the Gospel of Jesus Christ is 'whosoever.' All of God's promises are intended for every human being. This includes gay men and lesbians. How tragic it is that the Christian Church has excluded and persecuted people who are homosexual! We are all created with powerful needs for personal relationships. Our quality of life depends upon the love we share with others; whether family or friends, partners or peers. Yet, lesbians and gay men facing hostile attitudes in society often are denied access to healthy relationships. Jesus Christ calls us to find ultimate meaning in life through a personal relationship with our Creator. This important spiritual union can bring healing and strength to all of our human relationships

    Biblical Interpretation and Theology also change from time to time. Approximately 150 years ago in the United States, some Christian teaching held that there was a two-fold moral order: black and white. Whites were thought to be superior to blacks, therefore blacks were to be subservient and slavery was an institution ordained by God. Clergy who supported such an abhorrent idea claimed the authority of the Bible. The conflict over slavery led to divisions which gave birth to some major Christian denominations. These same denominations, of course, do not support slavery today. Did the Bible change? No, their interpretation of the Bible did!

    Genesis 19:1-25

    Some "televangelists" carelessly proclaim that God destroyed the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of "homosexuality." Although some theologians have equated the sin of Sodom with homosexuality, a careful look at Scripture corrects such ignorance. Announcing judgment on these cities in Genesis 18, God sends two angels to Sodom, where Abraham's nephew, Lot, persuades them to stay in his home. Genesis 19 records that "all the people from every quarter" surround Lot's house demanding the release of his visitors so "we might know them." The Hebrew word for "know" in this case, yadha, usually means "have thorough knowledge of." It could also express intent to examine the visitors' credentials, or on rare occasions the term implies sexual intercourse. If the latter was the author's intended meaning, it would have been a clear case of attempted gang rape. Several observations are important.

    First, the judgment on these cities for their wickedness had been announced prior to the alleged homosexual incident. Second, all of Sodom's people participated in the assault on Lot's house; in no culture has more than a small minority of the population been homosexual. Third, Lot's offer to release his daughters suggests he knew his neighbors to have heterosexual interests. Fourth, if the issue was sexual, why did God spare Lot, who immediately commits incest with his daughters? Most importantly, why do all the other passages of Scripture referring to this account fail to raise the issue of homosexuality?

    Romans 1:24-27

    Most New Testament books, including the four Gospels, are silent on same-sex acts, and Paul is the only author who makes any reference to the subject. The most negative statement by Paul regarding same-sex acts occurs in Romans 1:24-27 where, in the context of a larger argument on the need of all people for the gospel of Jesus Christ, certain homosexual behavior is given as an example of the "uncleanness" of idolatrous Gentiles.

    This raises the question: Does this passage refer to all homosexual acts, or to certain homosexual behavior known to Paul's readers? The book of Romans was written to Jewish and Gentile Christians in Rome, who would have been familiar with the infamous sexual excesses of their contemporaries, especially Roman emperors. They would also have been aware of tensions in the early Church regarding Gentiles and observance of the Jewish laws, as noted in Acts 15 and Paul's letter to the Galatians. Jewish laws in Leviticus mentioned male same-sex acts in the context of idolatry.

    The homosexual practices cited in Romans 1:24-27 were believed to result from idolatry and are associated with some very serious offenses as noted in Romans 1. Taken in this larger context, it should be obvious that such acts are significantly different from loving, responsible lesbian and gay relationships seen today.

    What is "Natural"?

    Significant to Paul's discussion is the fact that these "unclean" Gentiles exchanged that which was "natural" for them, physin, in the Greek text, for something "unnatural," para physin. In Romans 11:24, God acts in an "unnatural" way, para physin, to accept the Gentiles. "Unnatural" in these passages does not refer to violation of so-called laws of nature, but rather implies action contradicting one's own nature. In view of this, we should observe that it is "unnatural," para physin, for a person today with a lesbian or gay sexual orientation to attempt living a heterosexual lifestyle.

    I Corinthians 6:9

    Any consideration of New Testament statements on same-sex acts must carefully view the social context of the Greco-Roman culture in which Paul ministered. Prostitution and pederasty (sexual relationships of adult men with boys) were the most commonly known male same-sex acts. In I Corinthians 6:9, Paul condemns those who are "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind," as translated in the King James version. Unfortunately, some new translations are worse, rendering these words "homosexuals." Recent scholarship unmasks the homophobia behind such mistranslations.

    The first word – malakos, in the Greek text-which has been translated "effeminate" or "soft," most likely refers to someone who lacks discipline or moral control. The word is used elsewhere in the New Testament but never with reference to sexuality.

    The second word, Arsenokoitai, occurs once each in I Corinthians and I Timothy (1:10), but nowhere else in other literature of the period. It is derived from two Greek words, one meaning, "males" and the other "beds", a euphemism for sexual intercourse. Other Greek words were commonly used to describe homosexual behavior but do not appear here. The larger context of I Corinthians 6 shows Paul extremely concerned with prostitution, so it is very possible he was referring to male prostitutes. But many experts now attempting to translate these words have reached a simple conclusion: their precise meaning is uncertain. Scripture Study Conclusion…No Law Against Love

    The rarity with which Paul discusses any form of same-sex behavior and the ambiguity in references attributed to him make it extremely unsound to conclude any sure position in the New Testament on homosexuality, especially in the context of loving, responsible relationships. Since any arguments must be made from silence, it is much more reliable to turn to great principles of the Gospel taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. Do not judge others, lest you be judged. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is love . . . against such there is no law. One thing is abundantly clear, as Paul stated in Galatians 5:14: "...the whole Law is fulfilled in one statement, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself".

    November 15, 2012 at 2:02 pm |
  15. Brent

    " A abomination 2000 years ago is still a abomination today."

    Religion-based bigotry use religious teachings to justify discrimination against Native Americans, African Americans, minority religious groups, woman and interracial couples.

    Connecting the dots between historical bigotry against other groups and the attitudes of some people today toward homosexuality is one of the most effective ways to educate people about the denial of equal rights to the LGBT community.

    Most people know that, historically, religion has been used to justify discrimination against women, religious minorities and people of color. Putting anti-gay religious beliefs in this historical context can be a powerful tool in connecting discrimination that most Americans today accept as morally wrong and the discrimination faced by LGBT people. By citing historical instances of religion-based bigotry and prejudice, you allow people to be more comfortable with attitudinal change – they realize they are not stepping out alone against a commonly accepted viewpoint but rather following historical progress toward justice and equality.

    When talking about the misuse of religion to justify discrimination in the past, it is important not to say that the LGBT community’s struggle with discrimination is exactly the same as the Civil Rights Movement. Rather, the point is that religion-based bigotry has been a common denominator of injustice toward many groups in American society’s past. When given a chance, many people will see the underlying historical pattern of using religious teachings and beliefs to justify harmful discrimination.

    There is another benefit to citing other times in the past when religious teachings have been used to justify discrimination. Many times, when people of faith are challenged about their anti-gay views, they cite biblical verses or other religious texts as a safe haven when they are unable to articulate why they hold prejudiced attitudes toward LGBT people. Instead of telling people that their interpretation is wrong, you can remind them that other religious texts have been used in the past to justify attitudes and laws that are recognized today as morally wrong and unjust – such as discrimination against women, people of color and religious minorities.

    History provides the moral judgment, and we do not have to be theologians engaged in scriptural debates to point people to the judgment rendered by history.

    November 15, 2012 at 1:56 pm |
  16. Lorraine

    mama k's "I doubt you'll find much that has helped shape our current law".

    DEUTERONOMY 15, ooh yeah!! as much as they would allow me to post of it, my proof. wonder why, does anyone have a thought? lol...educated fools rock, and sell over well too!! YHWH BLESS.

    November 15, 2012 at 11:46 am |
    • End Religion

      the bible is a collection manmade social control rules derived from the social myths before it. It isn't authored by any god. it is proof of nothing.

      November 15, 2012 at 6:41 pm |
  17. myweightinwords

    182 pages and we're still having the exact same conversation.

    This is what happens when we pretend we're having a conversation, but in reality all we are doing is talking past one another.

    November 15, 2012 at 11:35 am |
    • Lorraine

      So Sadly True, the Denial Is preposterous!!!! But the separation between government and religion is evident. I don't agree to separate them, for how can one regulate 'right' without righteousness? Oh, yeah, they just don't, it's a 'maybe' rule instead. What it is, is the two are like water, and oil, they just do not mingle well together, especially in these times.Therefore, this conversation is redundant, and im going to move on to another topic. Praise YHWH.

      November 15, 2012 at 11:58 am |
    • End Religion

      All we can hope for is some silent person reads it and it helps break their religious delusion. After enough facts it can finally sink in. While religious can hope that religion sinks in, I believe more folks eventually side with reality rather than delusion. Religion and ignorance has been fighting a losing battle against reason and reality for a long time. We're seeing a major loss to religion with the help of the internet.

      November 15, 2012 at 6:46 pm |
    • Lorraine

      end religion, not only are your arms too short to box with YHWH, there are so many under this delusion in this 'world' looks like you are going to be really tired trying to convenience them all that they are delusional. For one, it religion is certainly wide spread, and the jc beliefs of religion. This religion strange gods were Prophesied in Daniel for our times 'now'. So, Can't that many people be wrong about there being something that we cannot explain, and more people are witnessing this. They may call, and believe it is religion, but if they would read Genesis-Malachi, they'll find that this is much more than stories, that you fabricate about before you even substantiate, and find to know the truth, but then they will realize who's who, of this truth.

      Also, i dont think that im the only one who knows YHWH, to my surprise many do, but because there is so much on religion especially for gain, and profit, well they turn from the right way, this is how one knows. Then if you'd read Genesis-Malachi, one would see this has been happening since 8th, & 9th, century I Kings 17, all the high priest went astray until this 'day', so yes they know, many scriptures tells of this using 'latter days' and 'until this day' of things that's happening, and will happen. YHWH BLESS.

      November 16, 2012 at 2:35 pm |
    • End Religion

      So you either didn't see the post where I showed you the bible was false, or you're choosing to ignore it. The bible is not, cannot possibly be, the actual word of a creator, even if you buy into the scenario that one exists. So now we know that your "truth" is actually just a believe, and so no more important than anyone else's belief. Indeed it's in the same boat with all the other beliefs in that they are likely wrong since there are many millions of "truths" all claiming to be the only true one.

      November 16, 2012 at 9:13 pm |
    • End Religion

      * just a belief

      November 16, 2012 at 9:19 pm |
  18. Bob

    God is not a man that He should lie and when He gives a command it is not changed by man.Knowledge is not above God but God is above all including knowledge. knowledge has come and gone and God is still here His word is true and unchanging. He looks after His word to make sure it performs as it is supposed to. The atheists would want you to believe that knowledge is above God because that is their god. But how fleeting are the discoveries in science and man, how permanent is the word of God. Mans opinion is fleeting come build your house on the rock of Jesus and no storm in life will wash it away. He is a comfort to the weak and a very present help in trouble. He is a friend that is closer than a brother and He wins all the battles. He paid the price of sin so we could have that relationship with Him, with no separation. Gods word is true and unchanging, so there is no justification for gay marriage in the Bible. A abomination 2000 years ago is still a abomination today. He is the creator of man, created man in His image and knows the emotions of man. We don't know what love is till we have that relationship with God and He pours out His love on us. It is only then we are able to love in complete freedom, it is only then we learn the true meaning of love. Not lust not love because of what you get but love because you are free to be who you are independent of what you need. Without fear and with all hope, daily restored, daily healed, able to walk in confidence knowing who loves you, protects you, heals you and to whom you will eventually return. No eye has seen or ear has heard the things Gods has prepared for those who love Him. It is the greatest experience of all time.

    November 15, 2012 at 11:26 am |
    • James

      " He is the creator of man, created man in His image and knows the emotions of man."

      The scriptures actually say nothing about homosexuality as a psychosexual orientation. Our understandings of sexual orientation are distinctly modern ones that were not present in the minds of Scripture writers. A few passages of Scripture (seven at the most) object to certain types of same-sex expressions or acts. The particular acts in question, however, are sexual expressions which are exploitative, oppressive, commercialized, or offensive to ancient purity rituals. There is no Scriptural guidance for same-sex relationships which are loving and mutually respecting. Guidelines for these relationships should come from the same general Scriptural norms that apply to heterosexual relationships.

      November 15, 2012 at 2:00 pm |
    • mama k

      Bob: "A abomination 2000 years ago is still a abomination today."

      A leper was considered an abomination 2000 years ago, Bob. It seems you were asleep in Sunday school when they covered how Jesus "treated" the leper. I have to assume you think you are a Christian since you were so incorrectly adamant that our country was founded on the Bible. Get some help, Bob.

      November 15, 2012 at 7:07 pm |
    • End Religion

      Bob, stop being absurd. Use your head for something other than a hat rack. If god was all powerful he wouldn't write his stupid rules in a book, he'd just whisper the rules to each and every one of us. The bible is manmade fraud.

      November 15, 2012 at 7:28 pm |
    • Veritas

      The bible also says that shellfish are an abomination but you don't hear too much outcry from fundies at seafood restaurants. Self-serving selection I'd say.

      November 16, 2012 at 9:27 pm |
  19. Lorraine

    I doubt you'll find much that has helped shape our current law. DEUTERONOMY 15, ooh yeah!! as much as they would allow me to post of it, my proof. wonder why, does anyone have a thought? lol...educated fools rock, and sell over well too!! YHWH BLESS.

    November 15, 2012 at 11:22 am |
    • End Religion

      That entire book is a farce. It should have been called Don't-eronomy. here are some gems from Deuteronomy (of course in all of god's wisdom)
      http://maccabeath.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-gems-of-deuteronomy-21.html

      November 15, 2012 at 7:36 pm |
  20. GOD

    GOD: Bob, I’ve given man science to show the truth about gays and lesbians.
    Bob: No, it’s not in my 2000 year old book.

    GOD: Bob, I’ve given man the experts that proved the truth about gays and lesbians.
    Bob: No, it’s not in my 2000 year old book.

    GOD: I have sent you others to show you the truth about gays and lesbians.
    Bob: No, it’s not in my 2000 year old book.

    GOD: go to hell.

    November 15, 2012 at 10:13 am |
    • Bob

      Can you say new world order??? not bad for 2000 years.

      November 15, 2012 at 11:30 am |
    • Lorraine

      You Lie!!! it states "MAN IS NOT TO LAY WITH ANOTHER MAN, AS WITH A WOMAN' how much more clear explaination does one need, i know we are all educated here right? This goes for women too, 'mankind' Lets' not sugar coat everything, to justify wrong, or IT IS not in compliance with the law of YHWH. IT'S A MAN'S LAW, simple as that. PRAISE YHWH.

      November 15, 2012 at 11:32 am |
    • John

      ""MAN IS NOT TO LAY WITH ANOTHER MAN, AS WITH A WOMAN"

      Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.

      Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.

      There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.

      Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.

      1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.

      Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?

      Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).

      That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex.

      November 15, 2012 at 1:57 pm |
    • YeahRight

      " "MAN IS NOT TO LAY WITH ANOTHER MAN, AS WITH A WOMAN' how much more clear explaination does one need"

      This is how stupid this poster is Christians don't follow Leviticus anymore, it's part of the Holiness Code, a ritual manual for Israel's priests.

      November 15, 2012 at 1:58 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Can you say new world order??? not bad for 2000 years."

      Religion has killed more people in the history of mankind than anything else, so NO it's not a new world order, it's a prejudice and bigoted philosophy that has been detrimental to others throughout history.

      November 15, 2012 at 2:05 pm |
    • Lorraine

      Yeahwrong, who's goinig by what christians do,they are fools, (CRETIN), they are religion, the Almighty YHWH, is not of religions, He does not do them, as Moses prophesied in Deuteronomy 32:17, from YHWH, that the people will do in the future false gods. ALL RELIGIONS ARE IDOLATRY, manmade. Praise YHWH.

      November 15, 2012 at 3:01 pm |
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228

Post a comment

You must be logged in to post a comment.

Advertisement
About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke and Eric Marrapodi with daily contributions from CNN's worldwide newsgathering team.