Editor’s note: CNN.com writer Moni Basu is author of “Chaplain Turner's War,” published by Agate Digital.
By Moni Basu, CNN
Atlanta, Georgia (CNN) - Darren Turner insisted on going to war, even though the Army usually reserves desk jobs at home for new chaplains like him.
Turner was young and green, enthusiastic about taking God to the battlefield. The Army captain had learned that people in pain are often wide-open to inviting God into their lives.
Jesus always ran to crises. Turner was going to do the same.
He’d enrolled in seminary in 2004 at Regent University in Virginia, founded by evangelist Pat Robertson. And early in his spiritual journey, he was inspired by Christian writer John Eldredge, who suggests that American men have abandoned the stuff of heroic dreams, aided by a Christianity that tells them to be "nice guys."
God, says Eldredge, designed men to be daring, even dangerous.
Turner arrived in Iraq in May 2007 with the 1st Battalion, 30th Infantry Regiment amid a raging insurgency. His soldiers faced an invisible but lethal enemy in booby-trapped houses and roads laced with massive bombs.
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Chaplain Turner’s war would unfold on many fronts. He would be a soldier on the battlefield. A counselor behind closed doors. He was a friend, even a father, to his men.
And when his 15-month tour was over, Turner returned home to face all the problems he had counseled his soldiers about: anger, depression, stress and – most important for him – preserving relationships with loved ones.
Nearly 4,500 American troops died in the Iraq war. More than 30,000 more were physically wounded. Countless others live with scars that can't be seen, like post-traumatic stress syndrome and traumatic brain injury. Many have struggled with regaining their lives at home.
Darren Turner counsels a soldier inside a sleeping container at Patrol Base Hawkes, southeast of Baghdad.
Turner had recognized the needs his soldiers would have after witnessing the horrors of combat, after losing friends.
In Iraq, he had comforted and advised soldiers at Forward Operating Base Falcon, in southeastern Baghdad, and in the combat outposts around the villages of Arab Jabour.
Preparing clergy for war: How chaplains train for combat
At Falcon, the Army provided a morale phone that allowed soldiers to make free 15-minute calls home. But Turner knew it wasn't enough. He carried a cell phone in the left shoulder pocket of his uniform and whipped it out whenever a soldier signaled domestic distress at home.
"Call her," he would say. "Call her now and tell her you love her."
When they returned to Georgia in the summer of 2008, Turner told his soldiers that their families would be their cushion. He knew his men were suffering; that the ghosts of Iraq would haunt them, maybe for the rest of their lives.
What he did not know then was that he would not himself be immune to the same threats. He neglected to heed his own advice and his life floundered.
I’d spent many weeks with Turner in Iraq for a story in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, but I didn't know about his troubles until I drove up to meet him and his wife, Heather, earlier this year at Fort Campbell, Kentucky.
An exhausted Darren Turner catches a nap at his desk inside his tent at Forward Operating Base Falcon near Baghdad.
On that rainy February day, Turner told me that he’d come back from Iraq and felt like the bomb defuser in the movie "The Hurt Locker," who goes into a grocery store and is overwhelmed by the mesmerizing variety of cereals.
Remembering the fallen: Learn about casualties
It was a lot to process after having few choices in Iraq. Reverse culture shock.
"I wanted everything in there but I wasn't sure what to buy," Turner said.
He also detected a lack of public concern for the men and women fighting overseas. Off post, people went about their lives without a real understanding of the sacrifices made by American service members.
At first the anger boiled inside. But then it began to surface. He took it out on Heather. It was a release so that he could keep his work as normal as possible.
Little things like arranging the dishwasher became big fights with Heather. Big things like Heather’s life plans became small issues that Turner mocked or discounted because they did not fit his own plans.
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"I came home angry," Turner told me. "Even my attitude, which I thought I was in control of, was walling me in. I didn't realize it until my wife told me, 'You're no longer welcome in our house.'"
During the deployment in Iraq, Turner had pined for Heather and his three young children, Elie, Sam and Meribeth. Now, he was losing them.
"The thing I was angry at was the very thing I was longing for during my deployment - my family," he said.
Heather said her husband was disengaged, impatient. She wanted them to seek counseling but Turner refused, insisting that she was the one who had issues.
Just a few months after his return from Iraq, Darren and Heather Turner separated.
“I was very selfish and tried to control my surroundings, which crushed those closest to me,” Turner said.
Turner eventually realized how much he had hurt his wife, he said. How he had stepped away from God's calling by failing those he cared about most.
After finishing Airborne School, he quit the Army in August 2009, believing the military would demand too much time away from his family at a critical juncture in their lives.
He took a job in sales at a Home Depot not far from his house in Dacula, Georgia. He struggled to mend his marriage and reconnect with his faith.
Four months later, Turner and his wife reconciled. He chose to return to the Army as a chaplain, he said, "a renewed man both in marriage and profession."
He and Heather found their calling. God, he said, gave them a special connection with soldiers and their families. They know they will stay busy for a while.
The U.S. mission in Iraq ended on December 18, 2011, as the last American soldiers climbed into hulking trucks and armored vehicles at Camp Adder, the southernmost base in Iraq.
The war, however, is sure to continue on a second front - in America's cities and homes. And in the offices of counselors and chaplains like Darren Turner.
Turner reminisces about Iraq often, and when I saw him at Fort Campbell, he told me he wrestled with mixed feelings on the day America's military presence ended. He hopes that, in the end, the war will have been worth the blood that was spilled.
Another war, the one in Afghanistan, is far from over, with casualties mounting every month. Today, Turner counsels soldiers serving there. His words, honed from experience, are more specific now.
Get Skype, he says.
Perhaps it's not what a soldier expects to hear from a man of God. It’s certainly not the stuff of Sunday sermons.
But it's practical advice that Turner knows will go a long way toward filling the emotional vacuum. He believes distance from one’s own family can trigger a breakdown, especially when a soldier is coping with injuries and combat stress.
"Being away from your family for that long is way more difficult than I anticipated," Turner said.
Skype, he discovered, is the next best thing to being at home. You can't feel someone or smell them but you can see and hear.
"That's two of the senses," he said. "That's exponential."
Turner’s pastoral passion is still driven by the force that first drew him to the chaplaincy: Jesus.
Everyone has faith in something, Turner said. His own conviction is that Jesus answers longings in the human heart and provides perspective. Beyond immediate emergencies, the larger story is one of hope.
“He's been there on the other side, and came back to tell us,” Turner said. “That's the biggest event in human history, something that maintains hope, even in battle. When soldiers get that, it changes everything.”
Turner said he may not have been God’s perfect messenger, but that his selfish choices do not negate God’s love.
Turner is thankful for that. And that he can carry on with his calling.
Why is there even a debate here? You cannot convince a believer of anything they don't want to believe. They believe merely because they want to. There is no standard, no criteria, no litmus, no baseline for their belief outside of whichever rag they're reading (bible, torah, quran). I recycle the bible – makes the best TP.
I love science books.
Exactly. As one says below, "I THANK GOD THAT I AM NOT AND WILL NEVER BE AN ATHEIST". No matter the evidence, they have closed their mind.
Protest and scoff all you will! It only strengthens my resollve! Blessed are you Muffinnman!
If you believe nothing will change thaqt, If you do not believe nothing will change that either. At least Mr. Young tried to live his belief. It is a shame sir, that you do not honor someone who tries to live his belief. Your life will end up on a dung hill somewhere.
Haha, I especially enjoy the martyrs. "If the world renounces me and my special Santa Claus, I must be on the right track". Victim mentality – they eat it up!
Ralph, Ralph, Ralph... You don't know what you don't know, and since you, and other "believer's" rarely question your books and the people who think they understand those books, you will never know what you don't know. I think it's great that someone lives according to their beliefs, but please, keep your beliefs to yourself and out of my government and classrooms.
There are close minded people on both sides. Many who claim to be Christian aren't. Many who "believe in science" are idiots.
Muffinman, "I think it's great that someone lives according to their beliefs, but please, keep your beliefs to yourself and out of my government and classrooms."
"Your" government and "your" classroom"? I didn't realize this before, but, now that I know of your government and your classroom, I am stood corrected and give honors to your ruling hands! Blessed be Muffinman and blessed be His government and cassroomm!
@Jared, I agree. I am open to there being a god, but like everyone and everything else, he's got to be held to some standard. They're making incredible claims in his name, which require incredible evidence. I don't make the rules.
I know there's a verse or two with disclaimers about testing him, faith, faith,faith, doubting Thomas, but those are merely excuses. "Don't question my authority" doesn't cut it; and since you can't burn me at the stake anymore...or threaten hell (fear based = illogical argument). Truth for authority, not authority for truth. How is that bad? I know, I know, I don't want to believe, right? You already know me... right? lol
Woah woah woah. Science is amazing, it has shown us many awesome things that the human eye could have never seen.
Robert Young and 7:00a.m. post. Mr. Young, I grew up Catholic and considered myself a christian until a few years ago. My wife reminds me of how I used to say, "I was born a Catholic and I'll die one because, I've not found another Christian or non-Christian religion that is better...some may even be worse. However, I am not even sure I am a Christian anymore. I have no doubt that Jesus, walked the earth and spread some simple and beautiful advise, but whether he was the Son of God? I am not sure....and there are a number of Christian religions that do not believe he was either!
But I sure wish more Christian had your tolerance and ability to recognize that it's this 100% certainty about something that cannot be proven is one of the main reasons why so many people become aheists. I am not an atheist; an agnostic perhaps, but I am embarrassed by those who call themselves Christians and then support wars, see ourselves as God-Chosen, and believe in forcing all others to believe as we do. If you read the comments in these pages, you will see that Hitler and his Nazis are brought up again and again. Some claiming he was Christian (he was raised a Catholic), some claiming he was an athiest. Whatever he was, he was not the first Christian to murder thousands because of religous beliefs...the Popes did that very well with the Crusades. If Hitler was an athiest, he was in the same boat as Stalin who also killed millions. What bothers more the most, is that both Christians and Atheists, have used and continue to use fear to control their followers....there is no difference to the dead and the suffering!
Atheism is only the lack of a belief in gods or the supernatural. They don't believe in an afterlife. I fail to see what you mean by "Atheists, have used and continue to use fear to control their followers". There is no atheist agenda. Most atheist don't belong to some organization that keeps them pumped up on fear.
As for Hitler, please read up on the whole cult of the SS with it's roots in prechristian germanic rituals. Hitler was raised christian, but used some druid like rituals. I'd say it was his own brand of christian and not at all like any other christian beliefs. and he certainly was not an atheist.
Al Alvarez in Az,
God will forever be humanities' back-seat driver! His Kingdoms are inside our bodies as the gospel professes. We are God's buldings! We are given due measures our life to be lived! What one's life becomes after death enters the picture depends upon one's faith. If you are firmly set to believe before you die that you will become nothng then nothiing you will become. Christians who beileve without a doubt they will enter into heaven, they will. Afterlife is all a matter of one's perceptions and beliefs. As for me I believe the heavenly kingdoms to be upon and part of the atomic scales in such a dimmension of great smallnness and unknowable time spans! For example, a thousand years in the kingdoms of heaven are but a few seconds here upon earth! Call me crazy, but one person's thoughts are hardly ever another person's treasures!
Is he trying to summon the Great Pumpkin? The Easter Bunny? Santa Claus? Chant with me, oooobabammabama, ooooobawabba bomba
I've always felt that our nation's militarism was at odds with the Gospel. We're never told to seek out and destroy our enemy. We're told to love them and spread the gospel. We're told not to fear those who can merely destroy the body, and to consider it gain to suffer for righteousness' sake. We put our faith in the sword, and not in the cross.
Right. When they're at your back door, we'll see whether you reach for your cross or your gun, or just hide in the basement and pray.
Thanks to all those that sacrificed for our freedom. Today god's existence is as relevant as Ra, the Sun God! Stop fooling yourself that your pile of dung smells better! :)
why dont you read the Bible and prove that God does not exist?
Why don't you take a basic logic class and learn that you can't prove a negative.
Why don't you read Harry Potter and prove Voldemort doesn't exist ?
sqeptiq.. and how do you know its a negative? have you read it? if you never learn the word negative, then how do u know? and why are u so pessimist? each and everyone should know where they stand, reading what is truth is for you? dont you want to know? Or just satisfied what you know already? Do you really know everything there is to know in life? Who love you more?
Prayer changes things .
Yeah, those Egyptians prayed hard. They changed things. Today, Ra turned into an average star and those pharaohs are as dead as a doornail! :)
The ticking of a clock changes things as much as does prayer.
prayer does not change things, this teaching is of satan. Jesus said "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as in heaven" He is not saying to change things, but God's will be done' I pray to make understand that everything is His will. God's will for His chosen people is this: "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding" Listen to Jesus Christ's prayer "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou" As a man Jesus knew he had to take the wrath of God for his people. Second time "He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done" Free will of man doctrine believers think God is moved by man's requests; so God has to change His mind millions of times a day because every body prays for different things, but His will. Make this your prayer before you read your bible: Psalm 33-41 "HE. Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it [unto] the end. Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with whole heart. Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight. Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness. Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; [and] quicken thou me in thy way. Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who [is devoted] to thy fear. Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments [are] good. Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness. VAU. Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, thy salvation, according to thy word" Thy law = Jesus Christ. God's chosen people will come to understand and trust that everything is His will.
Prove it. This statement is on the face of it totally wrong. There is NO scientific evidence to support your contention. Every person that is not tied up in Xtianity is an atheist.
Neither my wife nor I are Xtians, Jew, Muslim or Buddhist but we have a very deep and abiding spiritual walk with Our Lord and Lady. Xtianity does NOT have exclusive use of the word "religion", "faith" or "spirituality" although they inexplicably seem to think so. This chaplain's job was NOT to "bring" Jesus to the troops he counseled but rather to minister to ALL the various religious beliefs of the soldiers that came to him. Thankfully, he seems to be out of the battle zone and in a place he can be better monitored in his job. Hopefully, he will never be able to disgrace the job of a military chaplain again.
If god has a plan, and prayer changes it, you're in BIG trouble.
~~Prayer doesn’t not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.
An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.
The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs!
"The Army captain had learned that people in pain are often wide-open to inviting God into their lives."
It's amazing how Christian evangelicals often seem to prey on people when they are most vulnerable. Their victims include countless indoctrinated children, frightened elderly people on their death beds who are told to convert/repent or suffer eternal torture, and others who convert in crisis because they are told that Jesus is the only hope they have. (And that's not to mention the blacks and Jews and gays who have been persecuted in the name of Christ.) And then when their misfortunes continue, the victims are told that "God works in mysterious ways." Religion is the ultimate scam, but unfortunately it requires leaving the faith to see that.
ALL people are forgiven their tresspasses against others and not just the few who do believe! Your vanitry and jealousness toward God is due your own ideals of godliness leaving you wirh ntohing but remorse and embittered consolations!
Chris Willett, all followers of Christ were asked to share the good news and their testimony to everyone. But it just happened that people who believes that they know everything do not want to investigate and try to prove the Bible is false. As least read it, and prove it is false. Compare all the historical info in the Bible with all the available resources and archaeology findings. Then maybe you may have a better explanation. These days, most people are pretty arrogant because they have a decent education and believes they know everything. When people are in need, yes they seek, and God loves a seeking heart. Knock on His door, and I promise you He will open the door, and maybe you'll find your answer.
Leaving the faith... do you mean you left a 'church'?? No one leaves 'the faith', only churches.
God works in mysterious ways is true. The reality of life is that the only thing you can know, without FAITH, is that it is a JOURNEY, of learning and growing or stagnation, one does have a choice after all... learn by working your way through adversity or stagnate and die ... we all die eventually, anyway. If there is 'no point' to life, then why do you have scorn if a Believer reaches out to those in pain and offers them surcease by virtue of a connection to God?
There IS a God, does He love us? I don't know... maybe we are like an ant farm to God, maybe God is a child in a family of higher beings. We do not CANNOT know. But we can take some things on faith, and once we have reached out to God and He has accepted us... we never lose that connection. I know that for a FACT, I don't have to 'take it on faith'.
Really for me I don't care, will not care!, if my life ends and it is simply 'over'. But I do not believe that, I believe I will die and then be resurrected in the Presence of God. I am so sorry for you if you do not know there IS a God.
One more thing Chris, yes, religion is man made and can be corrupted. But the living God is looking for a personal relationship with each and everyone of us. When people believe, it is their choice, you cant convince anyone to believe in the Creator of Heaven and Earth. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God gives us the freedom to choose and the knowledge to find him. No one will love you more than our God, the God of grace and mercy. Not your spouse, friend, family, etc. When you are alone, I promise He will be there with you.
There is one race, the human race, BUT 2 spirits, either your with Him or against Him.
What the hell is "vanitry" ?
@Chris Willet – have done that. The more I studied cosmology and theoretical physics the stronger the pull of theism. I'm back. Why does it matter so much to you what others choose to believe? You certainly have the right to believe what you believe, why the aggression towards those who do believe?
There is no archeological evidence for the stories of the bible. Cite some if you think there is.
"vanitry" is the opposite of "jealousness".
Well, since it's not in the dictionary, I'll just have to add it to my FUNK and Wagnals. :)
sqeptiq –> http://israelsmessiah.com/biblical_archaeology/recent_discoveries.htm, they are many others. Also, have you wonder why our calendar is based on BC & AD? Why are there 7 days in a week? and why you're alive? is it by chance? someone with your unique personality? no one else is like you? and you are specially created? and when you're alone, the God of mercy and grace promises that He will never leave you. Yes, the naked eye cant see it, you cant see numerous germs too, does not mean it does not exist.
@sqeptiq You are absolutely wrong on this point. There are over 2,000 ancient manuscripts that corroborate the life of Jesus. Consider that historians base the historical accuracy of The Trojan War on just 75 ancient manuscripts.
name 10 of them.
"corroborate" is not proof of the claims. Most people agree Yeshua ben Josef existed. There is ONE docu'ment which actually PROVES he existed. Josephus said, in Chapter 18, something about JAMES, (not Jesus). The reference in Chapter 18 is a known forgery. Have you ever seen it ? It's in Milan, in the Ambrosiano Museum. It is an 1100 CE COPY, (there are NO originals), copied by CHRISTIAN monks, who probably added the paragraph in Chapter 18, (which is obviously done in a different hand, and different ink). It proves ONLY that Christian monks were forgers. The reference in Tacitus is about the CULT. All the rest make CLAIMS, which cannot be verified. He existed. That's all you can claim.
sorry, the James reference was in chapter 20.
@buckball: Actually I was wrong. It is 20,000 ancient manuscripts, not 2,000. Here's a site that lists many of the collections of ancient manuscripts that corroborate the life of Jesus, especially for Gospel of John account. The collections include the British museum. However, my point about the divine is something more fundamental than Jesus. The thing that impresses the presence of the divine upon me the most is the incredibly precise rate of expansion of the early universe immediately after the Big Bang singularity. The rate of expansion had to be EXACT to allow subatomic particles to coalesce into hydrogen atoms. No hydrogen, no stars, no stars no super novae, no super novae, no carbon, no carbon, no humans having a virtual discussion about theism. There are far far more scientists than you think who are theists – Einstein for one. People confuse the fact that Science is not capable of proving the existence of God, it exists in the temporal realm. God would by definition be infinite and not exist only in the temporal realm. So scientists can be and many are believers but they do not allow those beliefs to disrupt their scientific process. Paul Davis, A theoretical Physicist attached to Arizona State University has written a wonderful book (The Mind of God) about his science and his theistic beliefs. If you are truly mystified as to why people can believe this stuff with all this science aroun Thd them then I think this will make a very enlightening read for you as will francis colllins The Language of God. Collins was the head of the Human Genome project. Finally, What God Does to Your Brain presents the reader with page after page of empirical data supporting the 18 year study on how God changes your brain. Newirth gives lots of empirical evendence and Richard Dawkins presents none in his God Delusion book. Do the homework dude.
As I said, "corroboration is not proof of claims. There are MILLIONS of docu'ments which talk about Zeus. Of course you believe in him, right ? The claims in John CHANGED radically from Mark, as he was a Gnostic, which is PROOF that the cult underwent a period of development, and transition. The rate of expansion proves NOTHING. It's called the Anthropic Principle. Ever heard of that. If the universe did not have the properties it does, YOU would not be here to observe it. I asked for the NAMES. You have provided none except Einstein, which is incorrect. As usual you are lying. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Albert_Einstein . He WAS NOT a THEIST. You just made that up. I just proved to you that "god" does NOT chage your brain. YOU change your brain. I could care less what Dawkins does or does not give or do. I think for myself, something you obviously cannot do.
@martog. Richard Dawkins did not offer a single piece of empirical data in his book The God Delusion. I strongly recommend reading "What God Does to Your Brain" if you want to read a great book about science and faith that has lots and lots of empirical evidence culled from an 18 year study (lots of brain scans showing changes in brain physiology). Belief what you want just make sure that the works you are ready are not based on opinion alone. Again, read up on the early rate of expansion of the universe after the Big Bang. Should give anyone lots to think about, especially in conjunction with Pascal's Wager (google it).
Pascal's wager proves that if your god exists, he's unworthy of worship, and deserves only contempt.
IslandAtheist – Pascal's wager proves that if your god exists, he's unworthy of worship, and deserves only contempt.
Oh, really? So, what proof did Pascal have, please bring it me.
@HeIsGod – you have read the wager, yes? Pascal asserted that from a purely risk basis (eternity to win, nothing to lose) that faith is a winner.
Prayer, jogging and opium. They all do the same thing to the brain. Go for a jog, it burns more calories than prayer, and actually accomplishes something.
That your imaginary friend is a dick.
So Mark, faith is just covering your bases?
From "What God Does to your Brain" :
"What’s more, actual faith isn’t always necessary: atheists who meditate on positive imagery can obtain similar neurological benefits".
The neuro-physiological benefits of positive thinking, hopeful att'itudes, and meditation are well known to have positive effects. They, in NO WAY, prove the god delusion.
!ןןɐq ʎʞɔnq Absolutely true;however the studies do refute Dawkins who offers no empirical evidence.
What "evidence" would you accept ? There is no "evidence" for a negative.
Dawkins in an Evolutionary Biologist. Do you even know what the steps of the Scientific method are ?
Years ago I had met a Lady who used to be my neighbor and she had cancer. She was so angry and one day we were sitting outside and the Lord gave me the opportunity to minister to her. As I was talking to her, I asked her if she used to be a Christian and she said yes. I asked her what she was waiting for to return to our Father God, for God is waiting for her return. She broke down crying. A few weeks later she decided to go back to church and return to God and then, she passed away.
I didn't even know that she had cancer until after she died. I thank God that he gave me the opportunity to encourage her to return back to Christ. Now, she is with the LORD and it's been over 7 years since she passed.
"Now, she is with the LORD..."
And your verified evidence for that is...?
Wow, is that all you got from my comment?
Where is your proof that she isn't?
"Where is your proof that she isn't?"
I did not make a claim that she isn't. You made the claim that she is. The proving is your responsibility.
GetReal, but you are contradicting what saith the Lord, again, you will have plenty of time to see all the evidence that you need through out eternity. I know that she is with the Lord because of JOHN 3:16....READ IT.
LOL, the proving is my responsibility? Wrong, honey, that's God responsibility.....it's your responsibility to allow God to prove to you, but if you don't, that's up to you and your loss.
I hazard a guess that you are not allowing Allah, Vishnu, Ra or Zeus in to let them prove themselves to you?!
Get Real – If I have allowed God to Manifest Himself to me, why would I want to follow other gods when I know that Jehovah God is God alone? Again, you will see with your eyes.
Where is your proof that there is no 1957 Chevy orbiting Pluto ?
He who lies to others is a fraud, but he who lies to himself is a fool.
I think you need to go read your bible again or talk to a trained theologian. Acording to the bible, souls don't get risen until judgement day. If the rapture ever happens, thats when all these souls would go to heaven. So your friend is not currently with the Lord according to the book you profess to beleave in. Know your own religion at least if your going to be so narrow minded as to deny all others.
At death atheists believe
Not sure how true can that be, but I have known that most of them don't get to believe for Satan has grab a hold of them. I only hope that those who do will have a chance of repentance and am sure that they do.
Having already been there several times, no, we don't.
Ahh yes... the old fear factor. Where would all the gods that ever were be without it?
you are offensive and highly delusional.
Vulpecula – Calling you a fool is not name calling, you are taking the word “fool” out of context. Even the Word of God says “The fool says there is no God.” Again, even the very educated people have committed so many crimes, killed their own, and even commits suicide….so much for their education. We Christians, well we who are truly rooted up in Christ, are about love and compassion, we are not perfect and we are sinners saved by the Grace of God. We are also educated but have something that many of you Atheists don’t have and that is God’s peace that surpasses all understanding, but the peace that you unbelievers claim to have is here today and gone tomorrow.
Not all Christians are religious…..Many of us are just followers of God and not of religion.
Guess what, honey, I was raised to think that I was a Catholic, but was never taken to church, thank God for that. It wasn’t until it was 17 ½ years ago that I was invited to a non-denominational Christian church. I went to a Catholic church and couldn’t find what I found there. I reject religion to it’s fullest. Many of these religious people don’t read the Word of God and see that Christ never preached about any religion whatsoever, but He preached about salvation that can not be obtained by any religion, but only through His Name. Therefore, it’s through a relationship with God through Christ that one can know the spiritual truth and not through any other book or religion. Since it was God’s will for me to be born here, I am who I am and glad to see that I am not born in a Muslim or any other religious country.
The bible is not the word of any god, nor is the Quran or any other book. Men wrote it. Not women, of course, inferior as they are according to your religion. No god ever whispered to men to write what is in the bible, and the virgin birth idea was taken from a previous religion that also had its own all knowing all powerful invisible man. Since christians make the claim that there IS a god (as do ALL RELIGIONS), the burden of proof lies with them. Delude yourselves all you want... but the days of your invisible man are numbered... and I certainly hope that the number is 666 just to screw with your feeble little brains.
So you start a new post directed at me, but don't post it in the thread we had been using. Interesting.
No gods, No fairy tales. Life without god existed before your god was even thought up my Abraham. and has existed sense. As long as there has been religion, there have been skeptics. There have been philosophers throughout history that have formulated eithics without the need of some ultrapowerful all seeing deity to watch us and threaten us with harm if we break his rules. Don't believe in gods and even if yours somehow showed up tomorrow, there would still be the question of if he is really worthy of praise.
Have you ever heard of circular reasoning or paradoxical reasoning?
"Academic Douglas Walton used the following example of a fallacious circular argument:
"Wellington is in New Zealand.
Therefore, Wellington is in New Zealand"
He notes that, although the argument is deductively valid, it cannot prove that Wellington is in New Zealand because it contains no evidence that is distinct from the conclusion." from wikipedia
How did you decide god is a "he" ? Did "he" have his testosterone level done ?
I never cease to be amazed that no matter the topic on CNN's religious blog, it always devolves into atheists and fundamentalists mocking, arguing, and deriding each other.
And yet, here you are. You atheists complain about it and yet, when you see a religious blog or articles, atheists are the first ones to jump all over it. :o)
Then believers need to stay the hell off the science blogs. That's how most of us that are atheist ended up here. The believers brought in on themselves.
Not always. some of us are discussing in a rational, logical, respectful manner. Not many, but some. Never generalize, it's never correct (how's that for irony?)
AGuest9 – Your ignorance shows clearly...LOL...ummm, we have many Christian scientists. What makes you think that science blogs are for atheists only?
@AGuest9 – Suggest a reading of Francis Collins The Language of God. Also, there are many many books out there by Theoretical Physicists who are theists, many base their opinion on the extremely precise rate of expansion of the universe immediately after the big bang. The rate of expansion was so precise that if 15th decimal place was off by 1, hydrogen could never have coalesced from the subatomic particles that were formed in the singularity. How 'bout Pascal and Pascal's Wager? Science is not only for atheists despite what many believe, that's people talking without doing the scholarly work of actually reading something beyond Richard Dawkins book, which by the way, contained exactly 0 pieces of empirical data.
"He is God".....for your info, I am a pastor, not an atheist. AGuest....believers does not equal fundamentalist (a smaller group within believers). If science is your interest, do battle with them there. Just don't assume that fundamentalists represent most believers. It's the proverbial straw man argument over and over again I see. Mark, it is for the quality comments that I sift through the endless "debate" (that's being generous) between the atheists and fundamentalists. It's like an incessant ping pong game between under read but aggressive fundamentalists ready to damn the atheists going up against smug atheists who seem to think they are doing some form of service by writing things like, "you might as well be worshiping someone in a fairy tale." One day, the computers will become more sophisticated and I'll have mine sift out all such comments. Or, one can forever hope that people would respect one another but that very well might be delving into the realm of fantasy.
I apologize, I confused your name with "Tom Leykis"....God bless you Pastor Paine!
@Mark Taylor, Yes, Francis Collins is quite a disappointment to the scientific community. It is very sad that he holds such a high office, but such is politics.
Richard Dawkins? Please. If you want to grab onto a strawman, you most certainly have.
HeIsGod – then I guess you won't mind me posting here, since many fundamentalists make it their focus and attempt to force religion upon the state house and the public schools. Again, posting bible quotes during serious scientific discussion on blogs for that expressed purpose is what brought me here.
AGuest9 – I don't mind seeing you here, it's your whining and complaining about how we "shove" God down your throat that's irritating. :O
@Tom Paine – it is disheartening to see the level of discourse; however, I think there is an opportunity in these forums. A lot of people making the incorrect assumption that science is incompatible with faith and the REAL scientists don't believe in God. So many theoretical physicists are actually theists. Explaining this fact, patiently, really is good work I think. The more I study science the stronger my sense of wonder and the more drawn I am to worship.
I've watched these blogs for months and have yet to see aguest9 involved in any "serious" scientific discussion.
AGuest9 Which community? The richard "I present no empirical evidence for my claims" dawkins scientific community? You have to read more than one guy. You have to read lots and lots of guys. Einstein was a theist.
Hitchens/Atheism Is/HeavenSent/Captain America/et al: You have been asked to provide your "proof" many times and will not. Pot, meet kettle.
there are many many books out there by Theoretical Physicists who are theists, many base their opinion on the extremely precise rate of expansion of the universe immediately after the big bang. The rate of expansion was so precise that if 15th decimal place was off by 1, hydrogen could never have coalesced from the subatomic particles that were formed in the singularity
Scientists do NOT come to religion via science; they come to religion via emotion. The two can coexist but are not connected.
How was our universe created?
It is difficult enough to imagine a time, roughly 13.7 billion years ago, when the entire universe existed as a singularity. According to the big bang theory, one of the main contenders vying to explain how the universe came to be, all the matter in the cosmos – all of space itself – existed in a form smaller than a subatomic particle.
Once you think about that, an even more difficult question arises: What existed just before the big bang occurred?
The question itself predates modern cosmology by at least 1,600 years. Fourth-century theologian St. Augustine wrestled with the nature of God before the creation of the universe. His answer? Time was part of God's creation, and there simply was no "before" that a deity could call home.
Armed with the best physics of the 20th century, Albert Einstein came to very similar conclusions with his theory of relativity. Just consider the effect of mass on time. A planet's hefty mass warps time – making time run a tiny bit slower for a human on Earth's surface than a satellite in orbit. The difference is too small to notice, but time even runs more slowly for someone standing next to a large boulder than it does for a person standing alone in a field. The pre-big bang singularity possessed all the mass in the universe, effectively bringing time to a standstill.
How was life on earth created?
Probability calculations could be made, but I prefer a variation on a much-used analogy. Picture a gorilla (very long arms are needed) at an immense keyboard connected to a word processor. The keyboard contains not only the symbols used in English and European languages but also a huge excess drawn from every other known language and all of the symbol sets stored in a typical computer. The chances for the spontaneous assembly of a replicator in the pool I described above can be compared to those of the gorilla composing, in English, a coherent recipe for the preparation of chili con carne. With similar considerations in mind Gerald F. Joyce of the Scripps Research Institute and Leslie Orgel of the Salk Institute concluded that the spontaneous appearance of RNA chains on the lifeless Earth "would have been a near miracle." I would extend this conclusion to all of the proposed RNA substitutes that I mentioned above.
(Robert Shapiro, "A Simpler Origin for Life," Scientific American, February 12, 2007)
Name two properties of god which do not require time.
Relativity : space and time are unified.
If there is no time, ("effectively brought to a stop"), then explain how a creator BEGINS the creative act BEFORE the dimension of time, (or "exists" without time). Define "existence".
If time is required for god to exist, god is not the creator of spacetime.
Your irreducible complexity argument has been refuted countless times, in countless places. You are not that dumb.
@Bucky "Name two properties of god which do not require time. Relativity : space and time are unified. If there is no time, ("effectively brought to a stop"), then explain how a creator BEGINS the creative act BEFORE the dimension of time, (or "exists" without time). Define "existence". If time is required for god to exist, god is not the creator of spacetime."
=>How does God exist outside of time (and our universe): certainly a difficult question, Craig explains it thus "God is an immaterial mind (soul) that exists disembodied
=>God began out universe in that He was the source of the beginning. Time is not necessary for God to be the source of the beginning.
=>Time is not required for God to exist.
for more detail, see: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/god-and-mind-body-dualism
ןןɐq ʎʞɔnq "Your irreducible complexity argument has been refuted countless times, in countless places. You are not that dumb."
=>I missed it, was someone making an irreducible complexity argument?
@MarkTaylor: You need to read up on the anthropic principle (strong and weak, but mostly strong.) While it certainly doesn't disprove the existence of a Creator, it does point out the essential weakness of any argument from the premise of narrow conditions for our existence. The "miracle" is a self-fulfilling prophecy - had things been different, we wouldn't be around to observe them anyway. So such an argument (that the universe's conditions are perfect for our existence) is essentially flawed because, well, they'd *have* to be regardless of whether there was a Creator or not.
@Sweetenedtea "...essential weakness of any argument from the premise of narrow conditions for our existence... well, they'd *have* to be regardless of whether there was a Creator or not.."
=>The reason real scientists/philosophers never try to make that argument in debates with theists (See Kraus-Craig for example), is that it's a blatantly begging the question: premises include the claim that the conclusion is true or (directly or indirectly) assume that the conclusion is true.
It's fallacious reasoning, fine tuning implies design.
Sweetenedtea – I have read up on both the weak and strong athropomorphic principle Things are the way they are because we are hear to see them. It still doesn't explain that perfect rate of expansion after the big bang singlarity.
Craig is a pedantic fool. So you can't think for yourself ? Krauss recently said, (to Pell ...Cardinal in Australia), "so when you use that term, ( they were talking about transubstantiation .. but it applies here..."when you say that, you don't really mean what everyone else does when they use those English words". Craig simply invokes what amounts to the Fallacy of Special Pleading. (amongst all his annoying jabbering). I asked for 2 properties. You can't give them, and YOU also invoke what amounts to Special Pleading. "exists disembodied" just removes the body. It does NOTHING to explain or define "existence". Existence REQUIRES time, (or explain how it does NOT). That English word is meaningless without time. I'm NOT going to watch another idiotic Craig video, where ALL he can do is stick to his script ,and NOT think on his feet. Saying "time is not required" may be true, BUT then YOU have to STOP using ALL TEMPORALLY referenced concepts, (creating, loving, getting angry, working, seeing etc etc etc.) The MOST you can do, is to REMAIN silent. NOTHING you can say is logical, after that. Which is fine. The Medieval mystics embraced the "cloud of the unknowing" THAT is the ONLY position, in the end you can take. I may some day, accept that. For now...no way.
Why is it, EVERY time theists get backed into a corner, they invoke Craig. Are you not able to think for yourselves ? Even IF, he made any sence, (which he does NOT), in the end, he has no god to plug into his mess. It cannot be Yahweh. IF you think that human idea, (who originally had a wife) is the answer, your delusion is complete. If you study the HISTORY of the idea, it refutes itself. Ignorance is NOT your friend.
I am actually interested in where your RCA (which began in previous discussions) will lead. The individual who goes beyond to study the environment which surrounds the core can further expand the understanding of a concept. (i.e. the study of the organelles in genetic research in relation to rare disorders) Expand if you will. The reasoning will eventually become clear to others.
@ןןɐq ʎʞɔnq "Craig is a pedantic fool."
@Chad "and yet he is 50-0 in debates with atheists.."
@ןןɐq ʎʞɔnq "So you can't think for yourself ?
@Chad "always the same reaction from atheists when they dont like a theist supporting a position by citing sources"
@ןןɐq ʎʞɔnq " Krauss recently said, (to Pell ...Cardinal in Australia),
@Chad ""So you can't think for yourself ?" ;-)
sorry, i know that accusation only applies to theists by definition..
@ןןɐq ʎʞɔnq ""so when you use that term, ( they were talking about transubstantiation .. but it applies here..."when you say that, you don't really mean what everyone else does when they use those English words"
@Chad "not familiar with that case, but it sounds like when Craig hammered Krauss for purposefully misusing the term "nothing" when trying to say that "something can come from nothing", when Krauss' "nothing" has space and time,matter and physical laws.
So, I agree, that type of behavior is intellectually dishonest. Kind of ironic that Krauss was on the receiving end of that one.
@ןןɐq ʎʞɔnq "" Craig simply invokes what amounts to the Fallacy of Special Pleading.
@Chad "sorry, no. his arguments are always sound. Why do you think none of his opponents has pointed out 'special pleading'? are they just being nice?
@ןןɐq ʎʞɔnq " Existence REQUIRES time, (or explain how it does NOT).
@Chad "explain how it does! You are the one making the assertion here.. Time is a dimension of our universe, does it exist outside of our universe?
You actually have painted yourself into a corner with your "existence requires time" argument, here's how
– existence requires time
– time had a beginning
– therefor, nothing existed prior to the big bang
– therefor, the universe was indeed created ex-nihilo.
Again, Hello, not all Christians are Catholics and we will never sacrifice one of our own to God.....just look at how unbelievers are killing their own and who are you going to say they are sacrificing too, God?? The battlefield is within the mind of every human being, not just the natural battle field for soldiers. Remember, Atheists and Agnostics are being sent to the battlefield without prayer and many have died without Christ, but for those who remained until the end and faithful to Christ, they are now with Him.
"...but for those who remained until the end and faithful to Christ, they are now with Him."
You will have plenty of time to see evidence throughout your eternity, GetReal.
God Loves You and Christ Jesus does too!
A Serpent's Thought – Thank you, same to you.
"You will have plenty of time to see evidence throughout your eternity, GetReal."
Cowardly cop out. Can't you be honest?
The Labored tree of warring means may well ever be withstood upon! The money-chests of the warbrides' laments are worn and scorned as the days' light does depart her bosoms ever full of its' milkiness canundrum's vileness and many drunken stupors! The war tables will soon be blindly turned apart and all sedentary chairs will stack themselves as if to be never again sat upon by the asses of vanities' aloofness sarcasms!
Blessed be those ones who will no longer bide their days doing the war marches nor kettle the drums toward viles of wicked incitements of perverseness in causalities' stupified languishing militia parlors!
Challenges will be decided by the drawing of lots or numbered covering away from the pundances of warring regretffulness ideals! Tournaments of ever newer formations' pleasentries will soothe the beast in people's eyes! The goodly Conscience will be renourished with vigor and vitalities in abundant measures giving ways and risies to pleasing all for many seasons in reasoned wealthiness cleavings! God for the Godly will ride in the backseat of Life's ongoing rush down the slopes of freedom ringing always and forever to never again wanting to be or become stilled travistries' last passing torments of distainments' warlorded conjouring ways!
Wars and the rumors thereof. Todays are such ways. Sodom was and the times are now of. Sodomites of old times now are of the new times! In upcoming years the days will impart their lackings and frothings never as once was. Love therefor all who one meets as if they were your brother or sister! Let one's conscience not disway you on your living journey thru the many who do impart failures after failure!
Keep safe your Godly aspiratons and transpire not unto the abyss of darkness and despairing virtues. Make clemencies and regularities your commonalities. Languish not in bad conscience throngings! Walk placidly amid life's waste and turmoils yet ever remember to find the pieces of peace there abouts! Blessed are the peacemakers for theirs are for righteousness sakes! Damned are those whose conscience is of ignorance and unfounded coersion!
That certainly was a 'canundrum'.
Now I understand how you lost your mind. It's easy to lose something that small.
Your compliment is well recieved and logged as such! Blessed are you sqeptiq and in love be gone untl the next time your word excells past my window!
A.S Thought-you said "Blessed are the peacemakers for theirs are for righteousness sakes! "
Couldn't agree more.
Prayer changes things .
Amen, sure does...long time no see. How are you?
Really? because those evil *expletive deleted* that brought down the twin towers were also "praying." Crazy religious zealot equals crazy religious zealot. If you are a white american religious person (don't care which one) you are just as crazy as those *expletive deleted* because you will blindly follow the pope, or quran, or torah, or pastor, or preacher, or minister, or totalitarian dictator or whomever you follow just because they tell you to and you can't think for yourself. If an apostle told Jesus he wanted out do you think he would let him go because Jesus "knows" he is "correct?" The answer is yes, he would let them leave because that is christ-like. What if your child wanted to stop praying, going to church, or believing in god? Would you let them? No, because you are insecure in your need for a meaning of life and you are a piece of *expletive deleted.* More people have been killed in the name of a supreme religious being that stupid people can't agree on than for any other reason in history COMBINED. Any atheists involved in that? NO! DON'T THINK SO!! Thank you for reading. "I COMMAND YOU TO TROLL THIS POST BIG TIME!!!!" -GOD
Prayer is talking with God not an idol or false god such as allah. God bless
But see, you are too stupid to understand; to a muslim your god is everything that allah is to you: fake, a false idol, evil, false prophet. Both of you think you are right and both of you would fight to the death to "prove" you are right when neither of you could do anything even closely resembling proving your stance... burden of proof to you. It's okay, nothing happens when you die and noone is watching out for you from above. It's a slightly scary to think at first but, trust me, you will be way happier when you know that. Also, there is nothing wrong with you to make you go to church. You never sinned before you were born and there is no hole in your non-existent soul because you don't follow Horus from ancient Egypt. I mean, Jesus. God damn I can never tell them apart, such similar tales...
Prayer is self-talk. Whatever floats your boat.
What's your point? A drop of oil on a squeaky wheel stops the noise with no intervention of Deity. The fact that mumbling to an invisible being changes brain chemistry also has nothing to do with intercession of Deity. It's a NATURAL biological process. It occurs whether the minor mountain storm deity Jehovah worshiped by Judeo-Xtians is prayed to or Mother Gaia is called upon.
It always amazes me that so called Xtians have latched unto every word regarding spirituallity as their exclusive language. It amazes me even more that the US military allowed an ev(il)angelican to hold a post of this importance. Soldiers have many different religions and a chaplain should be well versed in them all.
~Prayer doesn’t not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.
The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs!~
This just goes to prove that we are NOTHING without Christ.
There is NO life without God.
Please take your medication.
Tom...oh, but I did, and it helped, you need to take your spiritual medication.
Soooooooooo in the hundreds of thousands of years of human history in which people did not believe in (YOUR) god, he kept making people and making people and making people and letting society advance because they believed in tons of gods that weren't him? I know your response is going to be "That was his plan and he brought himself to the world (or the world to he) when he felt it was appropriate." PFFFFT give me a break, just be religious in your house and church. noone wants to hear it anymore, I was supposed to get a freedom OF and FROM religion.
Which "christ" ?
Can you come up with an actual forum that allows comments without us trying to figure out what we've typed that may have possibly blocked its publishing? Or is your IT team that pathetic?
He could have take the worse turn of his life and become a bitter Atheist as many have by turning their back to God and not allow God restore him/her. I am so glad that God kept him and restored him. I pray that many people like Turner, who has turned their back to Christ will allow God restore their life and the joy of their salvation.
You obviously don't understand the process most atheists go through to become atheists. It's called education. I'm an atheist and I've met plenty of others, and former christians that turned bitter has nothing to do with it. In fact at least two I know of were studying in seminary to become religious leaders and "converted" to atheism because what they learned growing up was so different from what religious scholars were teaching.
Accepting the reality that mythology is not real does not create bitter Atheists.. it creates people who are freethinkers and not chained to mythic fantasies.
Read Caesar's Messiah and learn the reality of the Christian myth... it is a joke.... to control Jews...
vulpecula – Hmmmm, so, getting an education makes you wiser then those that are religious???
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS"; – 1 Corinthians 3:19.
Obviously, this soldier is very educated, even spiritually educated. He was on his way to being a bitter unbeliever, but God in His rich mercy, saved him.
You say that Christianity is a myth.....how do I know that Caesar Messiah isn't?
Stop leaning unto your own understanding and stop trusting in the word of man and allow the Holy Spirit guide you into all truth, just like He did with Turner and many of us.
there are no spirits, gods, devils... etc. it is all just a bunch of mythic tales... lies...
Believing in the supernatural does not make you a better person or a smarter one.. just a fooled one.
Read Caesar's Messiah to learn how the Roman's created the Christian myth out of the Jewish one to control them.
Its all about money and control over the populations.....
Hello – Let me clear something up for you.....not all Christians are Catholics and/or religious. I am not among them and I don't trust the Roman Catholics for they are full of lies. I am a non-denominational Christian who is a FOLLOWER of Christ.
@Helsgod why yes, it does. when believers are unwilling to think critically. Try studying Biology, Chemistry and Physics. You would be suprised at how much of the universe can be explained in a very rational way. Don't limit yourself to just one book. Also, investigate what religeous scolars say verses what mainstream christian people beleave. Would you be suprised to find out biblical scholars say there is no hell?
None too bright, are you! Lol facepalm. POOT
vulpelca – Please stop making yourself look like a total fool....what makes you think that Christians don't study Biology, Chemistry and Physics? See, this is how you limit yourself.....by not allowing God show you the real spiritual world for what it is. You need to stop allowing to think "freely" with the natural thinking and use your heart to think "freely" with your spiritual thinking...see, you can have it both ways. NO LIMITS IN CHRIST.
LOL, Tom Leykis, that's okay, I know your brain is too small to understand what I tried to explain to you. :o)
vulpecula – So, education is a process to Atheism? LOL, otay.
Oh, so now you resort to name calling. It might be the tactic used but others, but I have not disrespected you in this way. Why don't you look up the percentage of college educated people that are atheists. Then look up the percentage of atheists that make up the sciences. What you need to understand is that there is nothing about the christian religion or any other religion that holds any water more than all those thousands of other religions throughout history that you have already dismissed. The only reason your christian is because you were brought up in a predominate christian country. Had you been born somewhere else, you might have been a Muslim. Critical thinking. it's what generates advancements in the science. But religion can't stand up to it.
to answer my own question that you ignored, over 40% of physicists and Biologists are atheist in the U.S.A. It's about 76% for those same professions in Europe.
Please google "circular reasoning" so you can stop embarrassing yourself.
Taking God to war sounds like Jihad.
What make the christian god right and the Muslim god wrong?
Taking God to war, as far as the US military is concerned, is all about providing for the free expression of religion for soldiers, which is very much NOT like jihad.
There are 2 kind of Wars that humanity face....the physical one and the spiritual one. Turner had to fight both wars and at the end, God gave Turner victory over both of them.
Huge difference. Jihad is killing others on behalf of the God you worship. Clear difference from the US involvement in Afghanistan
The Roman's would sacrifice one of their own to the god/s of those they are doing battle with so they would gain favor from their enemies god/s.. very primitive thinking... still being used... We sacrifice our young to the battle fields .. sending them with a prayer... to survive.. when the leaders know it is not a god that would save them , but refusal for them to even go to war for the profits of others.
Soldiers don't have sense enough to talk to god without help? Are you a sacerdotalist?
Chaplains in the military are to serve the needs of all soldiers whether Xtian, Muslim Buddhist, Hindu or pagan. A quick glance at the Chaplain's Manual clearly shows this. For a chaplain to use the military as a springboard for his personal path is not only ethically and morally wrong but is also reprehensible and outside his mission as a chaplain. Keep this fool well away from our troops.
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