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May 28th, 2012
05:36 PM ET

Conservative leader agrees to visit home of married gay couple for first time

By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor

(CNN) - A conservative Christian leader who opposes same-sex marriage has agreed to the idea of dining at the home of a married gay couple, after saying he had never done so in an interview with CNN.

Tony Perkins, who heads the Family Research Council in Washington, received the invitation after telling CNN’s Brooke Baldwin on Thursday that he’d never been to the home of a married same-sex couple.

"My wife and I will be glad to respond when we receive the invitation to find a time that works," Perkins said in a statement to CNN on Monday, referring to the invitation.

The Family Research Council has helped lead a national movement to ban same-sex marriage, helping pass anti-same-sex marriage laws in dozens of states.

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

The invitation to Perkins came from Jennifer Chrisler, the executive director of a gay rights group called Family Equality Council. Chrisler and her wife have twin 10-year-old boys, with another child on the way.

“I would like to extend an open invitation for you and your family to visit my home and have dinner with my spouse and children with the full hope that you will witness the love that exists in our families,” Chrisler wrote in her invitation, which was sent to the Family Research Council by certified mail on Friday, according to a spokesman with Family Equality Council.

My Take: Why some Christians focus on homosexuality

“While I recognize it may not change your mind, I hope that it might soften your heart,” Chrisler said in her invitation, which was sent to news media. “As Christians, I think we can both agree that ours is not to judge and that we must live by the golden rule.”

In an interview with Baldwin on Monday, Chrisler said she was surprised that Perkins accepted her invitation. She said she had been inspired to send it after seeing President Barack Obama announce his personal support for same-sex marriage earlier this month.

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She noted that Obama and Vice President Joe Biden said that getting to know same-sex couples who are raising kids played a big role in their decisions to support same-sex marriage.

“I tell my 10-year-olds, if you’re having problems with somebody, if you don’t understand them and they don’t understand you, talking to each other is the first step,” Chrisler said Monday.

Watch CNN Newsroom weekdays 9am to 3pm ET and weekends. For the latest from the CNN Newsroom click here.

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: Christianity • Gay marriage • Gay rights • TV-CNN Newsroom

soundoff (937 Responses)
  1. Mike P

    I'm surprised this guy accepted the invitation, too, because with regard to Christianity, the point of opposing gay marriage isn't whether or not a gay household works but rather keeping the couple and their kids from going to Hell for living out and approving of a lifestyle that offends God and is contrary to His design for human beings. It would be no different from a polygamous couple's showing Christians that their household works - it doesn't matter, because in the New Testament God states clearly that marriage is to be monogamous (and straight), just as it was at the beginning with Adam and Eve. Even gang members say, "Our tribe gets along, loves one another, and works really well together," but that doesn't make the gang lifestyle okay because of all the other things that go with running with a gang, and the same is true for gay marriage - when the core of your marriage is sin (i.e., gay relations), it doesn't matter to God, and it shouldn't matter to Christians, whether your marriage "works": sin is sin and should never be condoned or permitted on the basis of, "It works for us." When sin "works for you," that just means there's something wrong with you that you need to fix or otherwise deal with. Sin is never the answer to your problems, because in the end it will cause an eternal problem once you die from which you will never escape.

    June 9, 2012 at 12:41 pm |
    • Saxson

      Yes but then Christians are also committing a sin.. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. romans 14:4, But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

      June 12, 2012 at 3:58 pm |
  2. Evangelical

    It boggles the mind how ho-mos-exuals indulge their base desires and embrace their sin while knowing all the time that they will burn in hell for all eternity. It's like they are just daring God to throw them in the lake of fire. Well, they will get their wish if they don't turn for their evil lifestyle.

    May 31, 2012 at 3:19 am |
    • JWT

      Not all christians agrees with you and besides your particular set of religious rules do not apply to anyone outside your little religious group.

      May 31, 2012 at 6:54 am |
    • Alyssa

      It boggles the mind how bigoted Christians wear poly-blend clothing, eat shellfish, and get tattoos, knowing that they'll burn for eternity for their abominations (Leviticus). It's like they're daring God to throw them into the lake of fire.

      May 31, 2012 at 7:50 am |
    • Evangelical

      JWT,

      You are wrong. The laws of God apply to everyone. Everyone. It doesn't depend on whether you refuse to believe it or not. You will find out ... let's hope that it is not too late.

      May 31, 2012 at 11:35 am |
    • Evangelical

      Alyssa,

      First, let me say that I don't eat shellfish nor do I have any tattoos. But you are deflecting. Even if the whole world is sinning, it does not excuse the sin of ho-mos-exuals. That argument won't wash with God. Finally, to find out why Christians focus on ho-mos-exuality see the article linked at the top of this article.

      May 31, 2012 at 11:40 am |
    • SkepticOne

      @Evangelical
      What happened to "judge not lest ye be judged"? Are you Jesus now? Has your ego grown so huge that you now believe you are the Judge of all?

      Keep your religion to yourself, if I'm a sinner, I'll pay for it in the next life. The minute you force me to stop my sinning, against my will, you commit a sin yourself, without washing me of my own. Am I wrong? SO, you keep in your mega-churches built on the backs of thousands of worshipers and I'll keep to my halls of science trying to make the lives of others better and see who burns in the end. I'm rather comfortable with the thought of being worm food...

      May 31, 2012 at 4:54 pm |
    • JWT

      Grow up evan not everoyne needs t believe in exactly what you do. Its fine that you believe in god. Not a problem at all. It is not fine that you demand that I do. It is something that is none of your business in any way whatsoever. I serve no gods nor will I ever that is a fact that will stand for all time. You're relcome to your psychotic beliefs.

      May 31, 2012 at 10:12 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Exactly how are the 'desires' of gays 'base' yet the same 'desires' are okey-dokey for straights?

      May 31, 2012 at 10:16 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "It boggles the mind how ho-mos-exuals indulge their base desires and embrace their sin while knowing all the time that they will burn in hell for all eternity. "

      There are thousands of gay churches, gay clergy and pastors, nuns, rabbis that have gone on record stating that being gay as we know and understand it today is NOT a sin. There have also been pastors that have actually written apology letters to the gay community for their sin of judgments against them and lack of real love towards this minority group. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      June 1, 2012 at 11:18 am |
  3. chosen2

    Today is the day of Salvation. There is forgiveness in Christ for sinners, chosen sinners. He saves to the uttermost.
    Jesus Christ = The power and wisdom of God.
    Get some free water @ http://www.chosen2salvation.net

    May 31, 2012 at 2:22 am |
    • jaybird

      Honey, there's plenty of water around here. You don't need to share yours. We have enough.

      May 31, 2012 at 3:10 am |
    • HeavenSent

      jaybird, some of us comprehend, appreciate, and respect where the water flows from ... others, simply put, haven't acquired the knowledge yet, to care.

      May 31, 2012 at 3:48 am |
  4. Sam Yaza

    I'm going to love this dinner,... this shepherd is so se.xually repressed hes going to be in visioning a foursome all night,.. then when he lives his wife will turn to him and say don't wait up for me,.....

    May 30, 2012 at 9:04 pm |
  5. gdf

    @Primewonk

    I read some of your post below. First of all, too much time spent arguing with someone who it's pointless to argue against (a lot of hot air). Not that I blame you, I would have too, I'm just pointing out the futility.

    I would like to clear up a bit of history for you though. Are you familiar with John Newton & William Wilberforce? Both were instrumental in ending slavery in England. Wilberforce as the politician, Newton as the mentor. Both were Christians. Newton actually was a clergy ... in a previous life, he'd been a slave-captain on a ship involved with dreadful atrocities towards African slaves. It was only after he became a Christian that he turned from this life. Interesting I think.

    In the history of the U.S., there were many, many Christians fiercely opposed to slavery. Sadly, there were some who opposed abolition. That said, I would not like to make such a blanket, prejudicial statement against any one group as a whole based on some in the group. People are messed up, to generalize, Christians or other religious groups included despite their faith, even atheists, despite their so-called "tolerance" (to everything except religious faith it seems, also perhaps communism as any 'good westerner' would be opposed).

    If we did make blanket statements, we could say that every American is greedy, war-hungry, narcissistic, arrogant ... because many are. Or, we could say that all Americans are thieves, murderers, rapists, and hateful people ... because some are. It's better to just stay away from such prejudicial generalizations.

    Primewonk
    @ HeavenSent – If it wasn't for rational, intelligent people questioning the "norms" of society –

    Religious îdiots would still be demanding to own black people.

    Religious îdiots would still be demanding those "colored" folks not be allowed to marry us white folks.

    Religious îdiots would still demand the right to ràped their wives.

    Religious îdiots would still demand that "head and Master" laws be applied.

    Religious îdiots would still demand that those "colored" kids go to separate schools.

    Religious îdiots would still be locking up gay folks.

    Thank god we have I telligent rational folks to oppose all the hate and bigotry associated with fundamentalist religion.

    By the way, some of us are almost 60, so not all of us are youngsters.

    May 30, 2012 at 6:38 pm |
    • gdf

      I meant to delete all that extra stuff out I referenced, but forgot. Taking up too much space for nothing.

      May 30, 2012 at 6:41 pm |
  6. SkepticOne

    @HeavenSent

    I truly feel sorry for you. You're the type of Christian that Atheists feel sorry for and frustrate. You are so afraid of change, even for the positive, that you blind yourself, wrapping ignorant, hate-speech in the blanket of "Faith".

    You claim that Scientists, the media, the government, civil rights leaders, and many concerned citizens are all being deluded by a big lie... wouldn't Occam's razor tell you that there is a simpler explanation? That not everything is a conspiracy, wrapped in a lie, wrapped in an agenda? That it might not be you that's wrong?

    Fundamentalist Christians like you hate questions about their faith. They also avoid anything that questions their views, dismissing them as unvalid or made up. Any act or group that identifies themselves as Christian and that goes against their views they declare as "Un-Christian" as if that dismisses their views. Fundamentalists scare the vast, open-minded majority of Christians in the same way that Muslim fundamentalist do against that majority of Muslims, volume, hate and vitriol.

    I truly pity you.

    May 30, 2012 at 6:09 pm |
    • gdf

      I understand the difficulty you seem to have with those calling themselves "Christian". It does seem many Christians do respond first with criticism, or hate, or disgust ... whatever you want to call it.

      However, please do understand that for any religious system founded in some sort of "holy scripture", whatever that religion may be, their beliefs or faith should not be determined based on what the culture deems as acceptable or appropriate, but based on the scripture itself.

      Of course you may want to argue based on scriptures, discrepancies, or refer to some Old Testament something or other. Fine. But that's not really what I'm talking about here. I'm simply stating that religious beliefs are not based on culture or laws of men or the world, but rather they're based on their own religious scriptures. Allowing of course there are probably some sort of exceptions to this, new-age religions, etc ... and of course there are people who will identify as one religion or another without really knowing anything about that religion or its foundational scriptures (Bill O'Reilly comes to mind).

      May 30, 2012 at 6:24 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      SkepticOne, you posted "@HeavenSent, I truly feel sorry for you. You're the type of Christian that Atheists feel sorry for and frustrate. You are so afraid of change, even for the positive, that you blind yourself, wrapping ignorant, hate-speech in the blanket of "Faith".

      You claim that Scientists, the media, the government, civil rights leaders, and many concerned citizens are all being deluded by a big lie... wouldn't Occam's razor tell you that there is a simpler explanation? That not everything is a conspiracy, wrapped in a lie, wrapped in an agenda? That it might not be you that's wrong?

      Fundamentalist Christians like you hate questions about their faith. They also avoid anything that questions their views, dismissing them as unvalid or made up. Any act or group that identifies themselves as Christian and that goes against their views they declare as "Un-Christian" as if that dismisses their views. Fundamentalists scare the vast, open-minded majority of Christians in the same way that Muslim fundamentalist do against that majority of Muslims, volume, hate and vitriol.

      I truly pity you."

      Answer: I have never hated anyone while living my life. I have never destroyed anyone's life. I've never played anyone for anything at any time. I am my own person with my own (God given) talents and don't prey or play folks to make my way through life. I treat everyone with respect when I cross paths with them in life. If they don't deserve it, I'm guilty of treating said folks with respect too. (That's my downfall ...I had wonderful parents and I pass that experience onto others, whether they deserve it or not). I do believe you're caught up in your negative perceptions of what you assume I should be, hence, blocking rational thought. As far as answering questions. I do, when specifically asked. However, I won't and don't have the time to jump through hoops because someone wants multiple answers to one posting, then circular files them when received. Blogging on this site is not my full time job. As to conspiracy theories. Smoke screens are used by many on different levels of play. If you don't know that truth about the games in life. Learn it. As for hate speech. Just because my knowledge of life doesn't match yours doesn't mean I'm buying into your tacky tactics that Christianity is now considered hate speech. It's not Christians fault that you have no eyes to see nor ears to hear Jesus' wisdom how to be the best He wants ALL of us to be. You own your negative perceptions about Christians and want me to buy what you are selling? If I missed any of your multiple points in your post, I'm sure you'll get back to me.

      May 31, 2012 at 12:07 am |
  7. J.W

    Maybe I am missing it in the article, but when is this supposed to happen? I hope that we hear an update on it.

    May 30, 2012 at 5:02 pm |
  8. Wahoo!

    I HOPE TONY LIKES TUNA!

    May 30, 2012 at 4:59 pm |
  9. Jeff

    Well it's nice to see his effort anyways. I don't know what will come of his dinner, but I hope it allows him to see there can be loving hom.ose.xual couples that provide a much more stable environment for a child than a straight, divorced home does.

    I am Christian and do not approve of hom.ose.xuality, but it is not my place to put that belief on someone else.

    I would much rather see our government elected officials sitting down to discuss the poor education system currently crippling our society. In time the world will pass us by if we're not careful. Public education must improve and it's going to take effort on both sides of the aisle to get it done.

    May 30, 2012 at 4:24 pm |
    • SkepticOne

      I'd say improve parenting before you blame the education system. Getting children in loving homezs (gay or straight) will have a deeper impact on education than "reforming" done by politicians.

      May 30, 2012 at 4:53 pm |
    • Jeff

      @Skeptic...I agree 100%...whatever the plan is, it will fall flat unless the home atmosphere is addressed. Too many kids with vacant parents. Too many parents blaming the education system when their kid scores below average.

      ...that said though, there are too many education systems light years behind where they should be. The atmosphere at school needs to be a haven for learning. Walk though your local high school and tell me how conducive to learning it is!

      Bottom line, the process would need to involve government, parents, and kids to be successful. However that happens I don't really care...just as long as it happens.

      May 30, 2012 at 4:58 pm |
  10. Snow

    Oh gee.. the bigot is trying to show that he is a nice bigot.

    May 30, 2012 at 2:52 pm |
    • gdf

      I don't think you understand the full meaning or ramifications of the word "bigot".

      Simply put, it's holding to your beliefs/views/prejudices and can display itself through hatred those against whom you're prejudiced. A "nice bigot" is an impossibility.

      Perhaps you're saying though that he should not believe something or hold strongly to something that others disagree with. Would you then really be in favor of a man having 4 wives? How about a 25-year-old man marrying a 15-year-old girl? How about a man legally being able to marry a goat?

      I'm not trying to equate one to another here, merely pointing out that you probably hold to some sort of standard belief system by which you would disagree with another living like that, even oppose them, even voting against any law trying to legalize it. Perhaps I have you wrong ... but the great majority of people are "nice bigots" in that they hold to a belief system that's in contrast to another. I don't mean religious belief system, just a sense of right & wrong, morality, or whatever you want to call it.

      May 30, 2012 at 6:13 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      gdf, is the man marrying a goat (LOL) your understanding of scriptures?

      May 31, 2012 at 1:11 am |
  11. Peter

    That was a great way to get invited, Tony. You haven't lived 'til you've been to a gay candlelight supper.

    May 30, 2012 at 1:03 pm |
  12. Jim

    What a circus CNN is. That isn't news it's sensational "journalism" designed to construe the real discussion.

    May 30, 2012 at 11:28 am |
    • SkepticOne

      construe- means to analyze... I think you meant misconstrue...

      May 30, 2012 at 4:54 pm |
  13. Primewonk

    Petercha wrote, "Being attracted to others of the same gender is not a sin. We are all tempted in different ways. Even Jesus was tempted in the desert. It's when one ACTS on that temptation, that it becomes sin."

    Really? Because your Jesus says looking at someone with lust is the same as doing it.

    I'm sorry – but these were bronze-age tribesmen who were totally ignorant about science. The stories they made up about things they didn't understand are a reflection of this. Claiming these myths came from a magical mythical invisible skydaddy doesn't make them any morre real. It just shows that your god is just as scientifically ignorant as his minions.

    May 30, 2012 at 9:52 am |
    • sam stone

      "Being attracted to others of the same gender is not a sin. We are all tempted in different ways. Even Jesus was tempted in the desert. It's when one ACTS on that temptation, that it becomes sin."

      You have no authority to say what is "sin".

      May 30, 2012 at 10:27 am |
    • Rick

      Hopefully the Pastor will be able to direct them in the right direction to cure this sickness.

      May 30, 2012 at 10:31 am |
    • HeavenSent

      I do believe you love spreading lies!

      May 30, 2012 at 10:33 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Of course, my response was directed to primed and controlled.

      May 30, 2012 at 10:34 am |
    • Primewonk

      @ Rick – if being born gay is a "sickness" it will be listed in the ICD-9 or the new upcoming ICD-10. These are available online. Please post the ICD-9 or -10 listing showing being born gay is a "sickness"

      If you fail to do this, I will have no other choice but to assume you are simply another run-of-the-mill lying fundiot.

      May 30, 2012 at 10:39 am |
    • Primewonk

      @HeavenSent – please post what lie(s) I am spreading. Be specific. Back up your assertions with actual evidence.

      May 30, 2012 at 10:42 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Wonker, give the baloney up. The media is controlled along with all those societies you love flaunting to declare your life of lies is truth.

      May 30, 2012 at 11:08 am |
    • Voice of Reason

      @HeavenSent

      I have watched you grow more intolerant and more ignorant to reality, you refuse to believe the obvious truth. It must be hard to live inside of you when you know you face reason and truth but your religious ego refuses to give in. What a waste of life, a brain of our precious oxygen!

      May 30, 2012 at 11:31 am |
    • Primewonk

      @ HeavenSent – what you have just done is called, "moving the goalposts". It is a common tactic amongst ignorant fundiots, such as yourself.

      You wrote, to me, " I do believe you love spreading lies!"

      To which I replied, " please post what lie(s) I am spreading. Be specific. Back up your assertions with actual evidence."

      You ignored that request, and instead posted, " Wonker, give the baloney up. The media is controlled along with all those societies you love flaunting to declare your life of lies is truth."

      Not only does that not address my request, it doesn't make any sense. Why is my life lies? Where did I even mention media? What societies are you talking about.

      Please answer those questions after you answer the original request to you – otherwise, we'll have no option but to think you are just another ignorant fundiot lying sack of crap.

      May 30, 2012 at 11:58 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Voice NOT of Reason, you don't like that I know you are lying. Too bad. You're just an anti-social personality, you choice which one you claim, that looks down your nose at society and wants us to change for your bad behavior. Get over yourself. Society norms is to join, not knock down, chew up and spit out and call it your own doing. ONLY predators do what you are doing.

      P.S. It's not your oxygen. God created ALL, not the scientists closet you hide in.

      Wonker, when you learn NOT to use profanity, I will think about answering your post. Until then, you too, can get over yourself.

      May 30, 2012 at 12:14 pm |
    • Primewonk

      @ HeavenSent, I don't really give a shît what you think or post, other than when you post lies, I will call you on it. And when you ignore it, and post the samme lies again, I will call you on it again.

      This time you posted, " Society norms is to join, not knock down, chew up and spit out and call it your own doing. ONLY predators do what you are doing."

      How is VofR being a preditor? Be specific.

      As for society and norms – again, you are an ignorant îdiot. In Mississippi the societal norm is to think interracial marriage should be illegal. The societal norm is to think the President was born in Kenya. And the societal norm is to think the President is a Muslim.

      Obviously, you remain, full of cràp.

      May 30, 2012 at 12:34 pm |
    • sam stone

      The only authority this pastor has regarding sickness is that which he himself spews.

      May 30, 2012 at 12:57 pm |
    • WASP

      @"HeavenSent
      Voice NOT of Reason, you don't like that I know you are lying. Too bad. You're just an anti-social personality, you choice which one you claim, that looks down your nose at society and wants us to change for your bad behavior. Get over yourself. Society norms is to join, not knock down, chew up and spit out and call it your own doing. ONLY predators do what you are doing.
      P.S. It's not your oxygen. God created ALL, not the scientists closet you hide in."

      ok this is what is known in psychology as "attacking the mirror" i have read through your recent postings and dicovered a pattern to them.
      i.e. "you don't like that I know you are lying. Too bad. You're just an anti-social personality"
      -now taking this segment you are claiming to know certtainly that "VoR" is lying when you are truly incapable of knowing such a thing unless you have been able to monitoring "VoR" so this then implies that you are truthfully argueing with yourself in claiming "VoR" i the one lying. the whole statement of "you're just an anti-social personality" has no target, thus is a basic declaration of self-thought. you bascially admitted that you are the anti-social person in this instance.
      i.e.#2:"you choice which one you claim, that looks down your nose at society and wants us to change for your bad behavior."
      -now in this segement you are giving "VoR" a choice, but not voicing what the choices are. have you ever watched a guilty child speek? they mumble out what they are thinking, kindof incoherent bits are louder than others. then you move straight into the personal view of his actions. how is it you think "VoR" is looking down his nose at you? how is "VoR" causing people to commit "bad behavior"? answer you are reflecting on what you yourself commit. in seeing what "VoR" quote unquote does wrong you are attempting to confirm your own beliefs according to what you see as his actions. this is your mind projecting onto "VoR" what it doesn't like to see in itself.
      i.e.#3"Society norms is to join, not knock down, chew up and spit out and call it your own doing."
      – now this statement is very intriguing. you just admitted that you are following the crowd. re-read your statement slowly to let your words sink in. "the social norm is to join" sounds to me like you are conforming to a set idea that you don't agree with, children do the same actions to other children. kids will often act a sheperds to keep "outsiders" inline, by ridicule and threats of "everyone is doing it" those tactics in truth show the fear of the "incrowd" person to be on their own, without the support of the group they would be lost.
      i.e.#4"ONLY predators do what you are doing."
      – notice the one all caps word? why the importance of only? only implies singluar or alone. however you use an inclusive plural in your very next word. could it be that you voicing what you yourself have witnessed though your own religious exsistance?
      final statement is just conjecture due to the fact it can not be proven is disproven that there is a god and if it truly created anything. so that point is merely for you to restate what your faith is.

      May 30, 2012 at 1:34 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      WASP. You are wrong again.

      May 30, 2012 at 1:51 pm |
    • Voice of Reason

      @HeavenSent
      "Voice NOT of Reason, you don't like that I know you are lying. Too bad."

      1. So, you say I don't like that you know that I am lying? Please tell me what I am lying about and then prove it.

      "P.S. It's not your oxygen..."

      2. I never said it was my oxygen. If you go back and read it I said "our oxygen".

      And as far as your statement about societies norm, well... I think it's healthy for humanity to question the norm, if we didn't we would never advance towards enlightenment for all mankind. It is unfortunate that you appear stuck in some archaic mindset that doesn't fit our world view model any longer. We have the facts and the proof of many things you propose to be true that just aren't. You seem to be cracking at the seams and your intolerance doesn't allow your eyes to actually see.

      May 30, 2012 at 1:59 pm |
    • WASP

      @HS: then please enlighten me as to where i was incorrect in my analysis of your statements? i enjoy intellectual discussions.

      May 30, 2012 at 2:13 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Wasp wrote, " i enjoy intellectual discussions."

      Boy, are you barking up the wrong tree!

      May 30, 2012 at 2:40 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Voice of Reason, every young person questions "the norms of society" and of course, thinks they can create a better mouse trap. I was referring to living, breathing, kind, considerate, etc., hard working, family loving and raising...actual living, breathing, people as the "norms" ... not random statistics from some list you've read.. The only place I'm stuck is in your perception. I hate to pull age on you ... but, every up coming generation thinks that the previous generations were archaic. As for Jesus. Unfortunately, you own your misinformation about Him.

      If I missed anything, I'm sure you'll point it out.

      May 30, 2012 at 2:48 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Primewonk, are you sure you aren't one of Tommy, Toms phony handles? LOL.

      May 30, 2012 at 2:51 pm |
    • Voice of Reason

      @HeavenSent

      Geez, I really hate to blow your perception of me but I'm nearly 75 and you?

      May 30, 2012 at 3:00 pm |
    • Voice of Reason

      @HeavenSent

      I mean, I have the same information about jesus as you do, don't I? Or are you privileged to some insider trading?

      May 30, 2012 at 3:04 pm |
    • Primewonk

      @ HeavenSent – If it wasn't for rational, intelligent people questioning the "norms" of society –

      Religious îdiots would still be demanding to own black people.

      Religious îdiots would still be demanding those "colored" folks not be allowed to marry us white folks.

      Religious îdiots would still demand the right to ràped their wives.

      Religious îdiots would still demand that "head and Master" laws be applied.

      Religious îdiots would still demand that those "colored" kids go to separate schools.

      Religious îdiots would still be locking up gay folks.

      Thank god we have I telligent rational folks to oppose all the hate and bigotry associated with fundamentalist religion.

      By the way, some of us are almost 60, so not all of us are youngsters.

      May 30, 2012 at 3:07 pm |
    • sam

      HS, don't you have cats to feed?

      May 30, 2012 at 3:18 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Primewonk, you posted "Religious îdiots would still be demanding to own black people."

      A: I never owned anyone, any time, any place. I've never had this thought enter my imagination.

      "Religious îdiots would still be demanding those "colored" folks not be allowed to marry us white folks."

      A" I'm a Christian and I never felt this way, nor, do I personally know anyone that thinks this way. However, I do read the lies non-believers are pushing on this site.

      Religious îdiots would still demand the right to ràped their wives.

      A: I do not know of any true Christian that are ra-pists. I know scriptures are misunderstood. I believe folks should look at it the way attorneys go about uncovering truth ... from every angle, allowing folks to speak what is on their minds instead of assuming this or that person is guilty of an action.

      Religious îdiots would still demand that "head and Master" laws be applied.

      A: As a Christian, God bought us for a price and He loves us.

      Religious îdiots would still demand that those "colored" kids go to separate schools.

      A: I went to school with friends of every walk of life. I lived truth, you're reading stories from IDONTKNOW USA.

      Religious îdiots would still be locking up gay folks.

      A: I think this lie comes out of the non-believers camp and that it's in the news because of a ringer from your side ... being election time smoke screening.

      Thank god we have I telligent rational folks to oppose all the hate and bigotry associated with fundamentalist religion.

      A: That hatred belongs in your mind. I've never heard you post that you lost your job, your family, your finances etc. Just whining, as usual about something your side created.

      By the way, some of us are almost 60, so not all of us are youngsters.

      A: Then act the part of a grown gentleman.

      May 30, 2012 at 3:41 pm |
    • Jen

      You can not deny that it is because of Christians that slavery existed, women were denied the right to vote, sodomy was illegal (hence it was possible to throw gays in prison). Those laws were all in place because all of those things are in the bible. How can anyone deny that? It's ridiculous that anyone would even try.

      May 30, 2012 at 4:12 pm |
    • Primewonk

      @ HeavenSent – I never said you wanted to own black people, did I? I said religious îdiots used to say that their god wanted them to own black people. Now, without moving the goalposts, again, tell us why the SBC formed.

      In response to my statement about interracial marriage, you wrote, " I'm a Christian and I never felt this way, nor, do I personally know anyone that thinks this way. However, I do read the lies non-believers are pushing on this site." So the survey results from the Public Policy Polling group is a lie? The poll was funded by republicans in Mississippi. And it showed that half of them said that interracial marriage should be illegal. Apparently, you moved the goalposts yet again.

      As for spousal ràpe – until the 1970's in most states a husband could not be charged with ràping his wife. Why was this? Don't move the goalposts again. Just explain to us why? Same goes foe the Head and Master laws. The last of these were removed in the late 1970's.

      Why are you such a lying putz?

      May 30, 2012 at 4:24 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Wonker, I originally responded to your lies about "I'm sorry – but these were bronze-age tribesmen who were totally ignorant about science. The stories they made up about things they didn't understand are a reflection of this. Claiming these myths came from a magical mythical invisible skydaddy doesn't make them any morre real. It just shows that your god is just as scientifically ignorant as his minions."

      Answer: Those Holy Men held more truth in His wisdom than you could hope to obtain while you are on this earth. It's not our problem you don't understand His truth.

      Now you want answers to some survey that I never took, or, know of any Christians that had input into said survey? Same answer to the Mississippi poll? Spousal r-ape from the 1970s and Head and Master laws? Just because some random or make believe survey interest you, you expect I know or they should interest me? As for accusing me of being a lying “putz”. I gave you truthful answers. If you don't want to accept my answers as truthful. You own that belief.

      May 31, 2012 at 1:48 am |
    • HeavenSent

      WASP, I find it ironic that you pointed out my use of caps when your handle does the same.

      May 31, 2012 at 3:39 am |
  14. Mike Mazzla

    Now that we are out of the gay closet, isnt time those of you still in the phony religious closet also come out and admit its all a bunch of nonsense. its 2012 already

    May 30, 2012 at 9:35 am |
    • HeavenSent

      How's it feel to be conned into being gay?

      May 30, 2012 at 10:35 am |
    • Primewonk

      @HeavenSent – you again indicate that people choose to be gay. I have asked you dozens of times to support this contention. So far, each and every time, you have refused. Why?

      May 30, 2012 at 10:45 am |
    • HeavenSent

      One, Wonked, I don't know you. How do I know that you are truly living (cough) dying a life as gay and not just on this site promoting it? All I know is you phonies are just that. Phony. Second, I've known many confused folks in my life that believe they are gay. Never once, prior to the 1980s did they say they were born that way ... and now, that's the choice mantra used today? Prior to the mind conditioning, folks would talk about their trauma whether it be physical or emotional or both ... or, a hatred for the parental figured.

      May 30, 2012 at 11:15 am |
    • Primewonk

      HeavenSent you lying sack of shît. You've been told dozens of times that I'm straight – not that it matters. Instead, you choose to ignore the truth.

      Instead, you ignored my request (" again indicate that people choose to be gay. I have asked you dozens of times to support this contention. So far, each and every time, you have refused. Why?"), and move the goalposts like a prototypical lying fundiot.

      So once again, explain why you keep claiming gays choose to be gay, but refuse to support your contention.

      May 30, 2012 at 12:05 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Listen Prime, all of life is a choice. If you don't have a choice, then why should anyone let you vote? Or, voice your opinion for that matter.

      May 30, 2012 at 12:16 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Wonk, excuse me for not taking any of your post seriously to remember what you've written. Again, if you want an answer, learn how to be a gentleman and stop using profanity.

      May 30, 2012 at 12:19 pm |
    • WASP

      @"HeavenSent
      Listen Prime, all of life is a choice. If you don't have a choice, then why should anyone let you vote? Or, voice your opinion for that matter.
      May 30, 2012 at 12:16 pm"

      so all of life is a choice? so we pick our gender and pigmentation prior to birth, that's good to know. i'm sure glad i chose to be born american, lol. we didn't let people vote, for quite a while really. we didn't let females or anyone of african decent vote due to the fact they were deemed below white christian males. those people fought for equal rights and won equal rights. females even fought for the right to work a "male job" they are still fighting to be allowed to fight on the frontlines of war instead of being forced into support roles only. so if you didn't chose to be a white christian male, i guess you chose the wrong everything HS; seeing ho-mo-se-xuals choose to be gay.

      May 30, 2012 at 12:37 pm |
    • Primewonk

      HeavenSent again moves the goalposts in order to not answer the questions..

      So once again, explain why you keep claiming gays choose to be gay, but refuse to support your contention. Tens of thousands of you ignorant fundiots make this claim again and again and again. Yet each of the tens of thousands of times you ignorant fundiots have been asked to provide the citations to peer-reviewed scientific research showing gays choose to be gay, you ignore it, or refuse to answer it, or you move the goalposts. You would think that at least one of you cretins would be able to construct a valid MESH query in PubMed. But apparently not. Or possible,, some of you HAVE constructed a MESH query in PubMed looking for evidence that gays choose to,be gay, and seen that there is none.. Which is it cretin? Or are you simply going to ignore this one as well?

      May 30, 2012 at 12:43 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "How's it feel to be conned into being gay?"

      You can't be conned into being gay. DUH! The experts have shown that being gay isn't a choice, it's not a mental illness and it can't be voluntarily changed. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      May 30, 2012 at 1:01 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Second, I've known many confused folks in my life that believe they are gay. Never once, prior to the 1980s did they say they were born that way ... and now, that's the choice mantra used today? Prior to the mind conditioning, folks would talk about their trauma whether it be physical or emotional or both ... or, a hatred for the parental figured."

      The experts proved that everything that was written in the past about gays were done by bias and prejudice people, that includes religious people and the bible. Duh!

      May 30, 2012 at 1:03 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      YeahRight, you replied with "The experts proved that everything that was written in the past about gays were done by bias and prejudice people, that includes religious people and the bible. Duh!"

      Answer: And the folks you are banking on aren't bias? There's a bridge over in Brooklyn I can sell! There's a reason the professionals are singing this mantra ... when you figure it out ..

      May 30, 2012 at 2:59 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "And the folks you are banking on aren't bias? There's a bridge over in Brooklyn I can sell! There's a reason the professionals are singing this mantra ... when you figure it out .."

      LMAO! You're the one spewing the lies and hatred towards this minority group so obviously you haven't figured out crap. LMAO!

      May 30, 2012 at 3:10 pm |
    • sam

      C'mon you guys, arguing with HeavenSent is like arguing with an old vinyl record with a skip in it. Except you can at least get the needle to move on the record if you bump it hard enough.

      May 30, 2012 at 3:22 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Minority Group? OMG. You haven't a clue what position you are on the rung of life.

      May 30, 2012 at 3:45 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      sam, make like a tree ... and leave.

      May 30, 2012 at 3:47 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Minority Group? OMG. You haven't a clue what position you are on the rung of life."

      I am not gay moron. Do you even know what a minority group is idiot, a culturally, ethnically, or racially distinct group that coexists with but is subordinate to a more dominant group. As the term is used in the social sciences, this subordinancy is the chief defining characteristic of a minority group. Duh!

      May 30, 2012 at 4:21 pm |
  15. johnquepublique

    I'm sure the meal and home decor will be just "fabulous"...

    May 30, 2012 at 8:11 am |
  16. chosen2

    Bring the True Christ to them, the true Gospel: Christ dying for sinners; chosen sinners.
    Jesus Christ = The power and wisdom of God.
    Get some free water @ http://www.chosen2salvation.net

    May 30, 2012 at 4:48 am |
    • Primewonk

      Being born gay is no more immoral or a "sin" thgan being born left-handed, or black.

      Oh...Wait...It wasn't that long ago that religious îdiots claimed being left-handed was a sign of the devil, and being black was the mark of Cain.

      Sorry. But this is just one more thiing (in a very long list of things) that your god got completely wrong.

      May 30, 2012 at 8:17 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Wonked, you've been hoodwinked.

      May 30, 2012 at 10:37 am |
    • Primewonk

      @HeavenSent – How come you, and every other ignoraant, fundiot, hômophobic cretin, who claims being gay is a choice, refuses to to post the evidence that it is a choice?

      May 30, 2012 at 10:47 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Wonker, if you want to communicate with me, refrain from using your perverted insults.

      May 30, 2012 at 11:17 am |
    • Primewonk

      @HeavenSent, this is an internet message board. You do not own it. I'll reply to whomever I dàmn well please. If you don't want me to reply to you, don't post lies.

      Now, as to me using "perverted insults –
      ignorant – 1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
      2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
      3. uninformed; unaware.
      4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

      You met the criteria for all 4 of those definitions, ergo, you are ignorant

      fundiot – a contraction for fundamentalist idiot. You are a fundamentalist. And Idiot – Informal . an utterly foolish or senseless person.

      You meet the definition of fundamentalist and idiot. Ergo, you are a fundiot.

      hômophobic – unreasoning fear of or antipathy toward hômosèxuals  and hômosèxuality.

      This definition fits you to a "T". Ergo, you are hômophobic.

      cretin – a stupid, obtuse, or mentally defective person

      We've already established that you are ignorant and an îdiot. You are obtuse because you refuse to understand the science we present to you. Ergo, you are a cretin

      So, now, again, please explain how what I said was perverted?

      May 30, 2012 at 12:26 pm |
    • Nii

      Every Xtian worth his salt knows that gay male s.ex is forbidden by God under moral law though lesbianism is undefined. The minister knows this and can easily eat with them as if they were Catholic nuns.

      May 30, 2012 at 1:32 pm |
    • Nii

      Primewonk
      If gay is something u r born with u can still be celibate. I'm allergic to maize does that automatically mean that I was born to drink beer.

      May 30, 2012 at 1:34 pm |
    • James

      "Every Xtian worth his salt knows that gay male s.ex is forbidden by God under moral law"

      The scriptures actually say nothing about homosexuality as a psychosexual orientation. Our understandings of sexual orientation are distinctly modern ones that were not present in the minds of Scripture writers. A few passages of Scripture (seven at the most) object to certain types of same-sex expressions or acts. The particular acts in question, however, are sexual expressions which are exploitative, oppressive, commercialized, or offensive to ancient purity rituals. There is no Scriptural guidance for same-sex relationships which are loving and mutually respecting. Guidelines for these relationships should come from the same general Scriptural norms that apply to heterosexual relationships.

      May 30, 2012 at 1:35 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Nii wrote, " If gay is something u r born with u can still be celibate. "

      Why? Do you know what we call a gay person who is celibate? We call them gay. Orientation is not behavior. Not sure why you ignorant fundiots are unable or unwilling to unserstand this. Your very own Jesus says that committing lust in your heart is the same as actually committing it. Or is your Jesus wrong?

      May 30, 2012 at 2:04 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Wonkers, what is your definition of sin?

      May 30, 2012 at 3:50 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Wonkers, you posted "@HeavenSent – you again indicate that people choose to be gay. I have asked you dozens of times to support this contention. So far, each and every time, you have refused. Why?"

      Answer: I'm not refusing to answer your post. However, you need to understand that I am not on this site to be at your beck and call. You accuse me of ignoring you. Truth is ...I'm not on-line at the same time you are because I surf in and out of this site throughout any given day. Some times staying long enough to read and/or answer posts, most times, not, and, other times, not at all. As far as why I answered "folks aren't born gay" is because I've asked numerous gay friends and acquaintances over the years ... how and when they knew they preferred same s3xed partners and was given a variety of answers. None used today's canned excuse of being born gay. Finally, not one of my friends or acquaintances were bombarded with the many subliminal messages via the media as it is today, to experiment into a realm they would never have thought of.

      May 31, 2012 at 2:45 am |
  17. katie

    Well, this is a step in the right direction. I choose to be cautiously optimistic rather than cynical at this juncture. You just never know. This could be a good thing. They are both Christian families so they at least have common ground from which to connect.

    May 30, 2012 at 12:57 am |
  18. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

    It cracks me up when sanctimonious souls like BJ think they know me because they read this benighted forum. "You can use your intellect for ethical, moral, just and profitable pursuits. You can do better. Why don't you?"

    Gotta love the arrogance. What makes some azzwipe like BJ think she/he knows what I do with my talents? Does the moron think what it reads here is the end-all and be-all of my life?

    What stupidity.

    May 29, 2012 at 11:37 pm |
    • fred

      Tom Tom
      Reply button, reply button !

      May 29, 2012 at 11:41 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Not a reply, idiot. Did you read the post?

      May 29, 2012 at 11:42 pm |
    • Edwardo

      @Tom Tom – This BJ person is not any different than the rest of the nutjobs of his ilk. His remark that god has a plan for you, but somehow this plan is not being executed... is beyond the ridiculous. A perfect, all powerful being, can't make his plan play out? Really? BJ's post is just nutty.

      May 29, 2012 at 11:50 pm |
    • fred

      Edwardo
      Tom Tom is a big part of the plan he is just marching to a different drummer.

      May 30, 2012 at 12:08 am |
    • Edwardo

      @Fred – If Tom Tom is part of the plan as you say, then his freewill has been removed. If his life/death/eternal life/death has already been determined (or planned), then Tom Tom has no freewill.

      May 30, 2012 at 12:26 am |
    • Nii

      Tom Tom's and anyone who cares! God having a plan for your life does not take away your freewill. You can choose to follow it or not. The life of Christ Himself is a perfect example of a predestined being(as opposed to a destined being). There were junctures where He cud have left the plan!

      May 30, 2012 at 1:21 am |
    • fred

      Edwardo
      According to the Word of God all things work to the good of those who are in Christ. Once you make the personal election to be in Christ then suddenly God says “for you were predestined according to His good will from the foundation of the earth”. This happens when one is born again. In short Gods time line is not our time line and past, present and future are altered at that moment. When God refers to himself as “IAM” you get the full sense that God exists in all time and space at once. There is no conflict in Tom Toms free will.

      May 30, 2012 at 1:21 am |
    • Nii

      Also predestination differs from destiny in that u'll never fulfil your side perfectly but God will fulfill it for u! when u have Christ u have the love of God and his mercy and truth and power in His Spirit. Nothing can hold u back from God's plan except yourself! Miss Tom Tom I love u as myself!

      May 30, 2012 at 1:29 am |
    • Nii

      Thanks for elborating on natural law and conscience. Very few Atheists here admit their conscience condemns them more than the Bible does.

      May 30, 2012 at 1:47 am |
    • HeavenSent

      I learned first hand from this site Tommie, Tom, that you love to lie, then gloat about it.

      May 30, 2012 at 10:40 am |
    • WASP

      @"Nii
      Tom Tom's and anyone who cares! God having a plan for your life does not take away your freewill. You can choose to follow it or not. The life of Christ Himself is a perfect example of a predestined being(as opposed to a destined being). There were junctures where He could have left the plan!
      May 30, 2012 at 1:21 am"

      ok now please explain to me how you have a choice, when someone has a plan already laid out for you? if i planned every second of my childs' life, how could it make a choice that i haven't already choosen to be availble to it? see free will, the ability to choose negates a plan due to the fact "free will" implies unpredictible or chaos; opposed to it is a plan, a predictible path that something follows aka order. so you can't have chaos and order at the sametime. it doesn't exsist, it's like saying you can have a cultivated garden in a wilderness forest; it flat out does not speak of anything close to logical.
      destiny and predestinied are the samething, you just double quoted yourself. your life is either destined to a point in time or you create your own destiny; predestined is order/plan regardless of what you do you will end up where you are meant to be. creating your own destiny is chaos/ free will you could end up better or worse than you started based on the choices you make in life.
      P.S. i did some spell checking for you. 🙂

      May 30, 2012 at 1:52 pm |
    • fred

      WASP
      If God never put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden would Adam have free will? Adam could be fat and happy just hanging out in the Garden for eternity with God. Without the opportunity to exercise free will it really does not matter if you are given free will or not.
      Long before Eve ate the fruit God knew Jesus would pay the penalty on the Cross. No free will was removed yet a plan was already in place. Genesis was written in simple symbolic language so that those who really want to find the truth can find it. Only God could design a Garden and a plan which allowed full free will to reveal the true soul of His creation that was destined for eternal unity with God.

      May 30, 2012 at 2:19 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      Omniscience and the concept of free will are mutually exclusive things.

      May 30, 2012 at 2:22 pm |
    • Primewonk

      @ fred – your god created humans knowing (before he created the universe) that they would become flawed and sin. Yet he created them this was anyway. And then decides to torture them for all eternity, because they did what he knew they would do. And they couldn't "not do" what he knew they would do, because he's omniscient.

      And you purposefully choose to worship this putz?

      May 30, 2012 at 2:36 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      God killed thousands of the Israelites for complaining (Numbers 16:41-49). Reminds me of the non-believers on this site.

      May 30, 2012 at 3:08 pm |
    • fred

      Hawii Guest
      Primewonk
      You both continue to express views contrary to the truth as explicitly shown in the Bible. It is not your plan it is Gods plan to prosper and bless you. You both personally reject any offers and outright gifts from God. The Garden was created as a perfect nest for man. The tree was given so man could have free will complete with a plan of salvation. God did not design you to fail God designed you to embrace Christ like qualities in order that you could radiate and express perfect love, joy and peace for eternity.
      God did not put Lucifer back in the box and God will not put you back in the box until you have had every possible opportunity to accept His perfect gift. In the Garden Gods perfect gift was rejected and the journey continues. Certainly you have noticed that every once in a while someone like Abraham, Noah and the one criminal on the cross embrace that gift and choose eternity with God over their selfish desire. You both have that choice yet both have chosen the way of the other criminal on the cross (Luke 23:39-43). That is how you want your life to end?

      May 30, 2012 at 3:10 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "The Garden was created as a perfect nest for man."

      There is no proof of that especially since the bible has been proven not to be an historical document. LMAO!

      May 30, 2012 at 3:13 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      You view the bible as truth, but once again just saying that it is doesn't make it so, and you have yet, in months of actually posting, to give any evidence that the bible is true, or that ANY god exists, let alone the god YOU believe in. Then again, sometimes I wonder why I even bother with you fred. All you do is avoid directly answering questions, and give long rambling irrelevant answers that are total bullsh.it instead. If you can't defend your position honestly, then at least say so instead of just spouting off random stupidity.

      May 30, 2012 at 3:17 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      YeahRight and HawaiiG, you're the ones buying into the lies of those that follow satan.

      May 30, 2012 at 3:56 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @HeavenSent

      I don't believe in satan either, and I'd be careful if I were you about making unfounded assertions about people. Remember what happened last time.

      May 30, 2012 at 4:00 pm |
    • fred

      HawiiGuest
      Gads are you suggesting I back up the sky is blue when all you need to do is look up? Certainly we could argue the sky only looks blue because the light refracting off the Ozone but………..why?
      Fred:”You both continue to express views contrary to the truth as explicitly shown in the Bible.”
      =>The theme of the Bible is God redeeming a people for himself out of love. Man was created for the express purpose of experiencing the love and Glory of God. Yet, you claim God is an evil killer. The proof is your own words that contradict the express statements of the Bible.
      Fred:” It is not your plan it is Gods plan to prosper and bless you.”
      =>We are speaking about the Bible and this is Gods plan as written in that Bible.
      Fred:” You both personally reject any offers and outright gifts from God.”
      =>Do you deny your rejection of Gods free gift in Jesus?
      Fred:“ The Garden was created as a perfect nest for man.”
      =>have you discovered another better place or planet?
      Fred:“ The tree was given so man could have free will complete with a plan of salvation.”
      =>ok, we are not told why God put that tree in garden. Do you have a better idea?
      As the plan of salvation God laid it out in Genesis right after the fall of man.
      Fred:”God did not design you to fail God designed you to embrace Christ like qualities in order that you could radiate and express perfect love, joy and peace for eternity.”
      =>according to the New Testament we are to be like Christ and the above are Christ like qualities. From the beginning we were made in the image of God and God rested and said it is very good. I could quote the hundreds of passages that speak to Gods desire to prosper and care for us if you wish.

      fred:”God did not put Lucifer back in the box “
      =>look around and note verses throughout the Bible that refer to Satan and his demons.
      Fred:” God will not put you back in the box until you have had every possible opportunity to accept His perfect gift.”
      =>you’re still alive

      May 30, 2012 at 4:57 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      You are operating under the assumption that the bible is true and accurate. You first need to demonstrate that it is, which would require breaking your circular reasoning of "the bible says it's true so therefore it is". Then you need to not only demonstrate that there is A god, then that it is the god YOU believe in. I've tried to get you to do this so many times over the months, and yet you cannot every single time.

      May 30, 2012 at 5:20 pm |
    • fred

      Hawii Guest
      “You are operating under the assumption that the bible is true and accurate. You first need to demonstrate that it is,”
      =>The Bible contains twenty some thousand lines of which only 40 are in question and adequately explained. The Iliad has 15,000 lines with 750 lines in question yet professors never question the accuracy of the Iliad.
      The Cradle of Civilization just happens to be where the Bible places the Garden of Eden.
      Accounts after the 7th and 8th century BC are considered historical by most scholars
      Thousands of truths from the Bible apply to this day and are repeated in endless self help books.
      Hundreds of prophecies fulfilled.
      Power of the Holy Sprit comes upon those who are born again as explicitly provided in the Bible.
      Personal witness and testimony of millions of believers
      The voice of God can be understood by millions.

      May 30, 2012 at 7:08 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      I question your sources on those. What are those supposed 40 lines questioned on? What is the criteria being used to decide what is in question? You've tried this argument before and failed at it.

      May 30, 2012 at 7:11 pm |
    • fred

      Hawii Guest
      http://www.equip.org/articles/facts-for-skeptics-of-the-new-testament/
      Daniel Wallace, “The Majority Text and the Original Text: Are They Identical?” Bibliotheca Sacra 148, 590 (1991): 157–58.
      Geisler and Nix, 475

      May 30, 2012 at 8:06 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      Is that article supposed to impress me? It gives no corroborating evidence or studies, and the only people quoted are apologists and the like, who already agree that the bible is historical. This isn't peer review it's a dishonest article with no corroboration.

      May 30, 2012 at 8:22 pm |
    • fred

      Hawii Guest
      I wonder if anyone ever did a peer review on the Dawkins bible? Either way I doubt there is a source that is acceptable to you.
      Even where I can show books out of the Dead Sea Scrolls or letters from Paul that are extant and agreed accurate and authentic by the vast majority of scholars what would that prove?

      May 30, 2012 at 9:17 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      Only 6 or 7 of the Pauline letters are considered authentically written by Paul by the majority of scholars. The book from Dawkins of course wasn't peer reviewed since books do not go through a peer review process, but then again I've never read any of Dawkins books. Are you attempting to imply that I form my opinions on the words of Dawkins or whoever? I haven't done a lot of research into the Dead Sea Scrolls, but I still don't see how this gives any credence to your orginal point of the truth or accuracy of the bible, since they are not independent sources, but rather manuscripts of the same book, which means you have no corroboration of the bible outside of the book itself.

      May 30, 2012 at 9:23 pm |
    • fred

      Hawii Guest
      Paul was an educated Roman Citizen and a Jew who studied under a well regarded master. Those accepted letters confirm many ancient writings. When the author of the Dead Sea Scrolls is corroborated by man like Paul 150 years later most historians give credit to that authentication.
      The Dead Sea Scrolls are extant writtings that have been accepted. Prior to their discoveries sckeptics discredited alll the old books of the Bible.

      May 30, 2012 at 9:42 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      What would this confirm (if it does confirm anything)? What about Pauls letters gives any credence to the Dead Sea Scrolls, and if they did, then does that give any credence to whether or not the actual events are true? If so how?

      May 30, 2012 at 9:46 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      Also, do you accept that it is possible that Paul had access to the scrolls in question, and that any similarities or corroboration could have come due to that?

      May 30, 2012 at 9:49 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      HawaiiGuest, you posted "@HeavenSent, I don't believe in satan either, and I'd be careful if I were you about making unfounded assertions about people. Remember what happened last time."

      Answer: What happened last time is you posted on another page instead of staying on the page you made the request. We both missed each others post because of the different pages and we were not on-line at the same time.

      May 31, 2012 at 12:35 am |
    • fred

      Hawii Guest
      Paul was born into a Hebrew family from the tribe of Benjamin and was a legalistic faultless Pharisee. No doubt Paul knew the Old Testament from childhood inside out. As to the Dead Sea Scrolls I doubt he saw them but the Scrolls read at the Temple were in his heart and the Hebrew were known for meticulous record keeping. The Dead Sea Scrolls for example contain the complete book of Isaiah which Paul quoted. Our current version of Isaiah matches the Dead Sea Scrolls in all matters of importance to the Old Testament. Dead Sea Scrolls Isaiah is dated about 125BC and the next oldest known extant copy was 916AD which is 95% accurate with only copyist error.
      I see Paul as an expert in what the Sanhedrin and Jesus referred to as Scripture or the Law of the Prophets. A trained rabbi Paul was sent to Jerusalem to study under Gamaliel one of the most famous rabbis of his day.
      I have no reason not to believe what Paul says. Luke a historian and trained doctor from Alexandria docu-mented much of Paul’s missionary journey in Acts which jives with what Paul had written. I understand skeptics do not go along with Luke but that is why they are skeptics.
      Paul through revelation and association with the Apostles Luke, Peter, James and Timothy connected the Old Testament with Christ. Skeptics who cannot in all conscious reject the accepted works of Paul hit a solid wall. The response is to claim Paul was nuts, had a stroke etc. then they follow up with Jesus never existed. To such skeptics there will never be a valid source.

      May 31, 2012 at 4:31 pm |
  19. BJ

    Tom, Tom,

    You need Jesus! He is waiting for you to open the door and let Him in. You need Him desperately!

    Agree with Him that you are sinful. Ask for forgiveness.
    Believe and receive Him, Jesus, in to your life.
    Commit your life to Him and start on journey that He created you for.

    Your slapstick remarks do not show the intelligence that He gave you. You can use your intellect for ethical, moral, just and profitable pursuits. You can do better. Why don't you?

    May 29, 2012 at 11:19 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Do better than what? Whom? You? Chad? HS? Are you friggin' kidding?

      I don't have the time of day for you or your beliefs when said supersti tions condemn everyone but dimwits like you to hell.

      May 29, 2012 at 11:25 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh, yeah, and do tell me what "sin" you imagine I've committed. Go ahead. I can hardly wait.

      May 29, 2012 at 11:26 pm |
    • Edwardo

      @BJ – I wouldn't mess with Tom Tom - this guy is brilliant. I read all of his posts, and trust me... you are no match for him. He will beat you down. Don't take him on! All who have tried, have failed. You will be next!

      May 29, 2012 at 11:46 pm |
    • Mark from Middle River

      >>>"read all of his posts, and trust me... you are no match for him. He will beat you down. Don't take him on! All who have tried, have failed. You will be next!"

      If you have read all of "his" post then why should we take your warning seriously when you yourself thinks that TomTom is a male?

      I have stomped ... "with respect" given to a elder in our society 🙂 ... the guts out of TomTom which means that I have read TomTom's post enough to know that she had identified herself as a she many times.

      Edwardo, how can you claim to have read all of TomTom's post and still call her a "He"?

      May 30, 2012 at 2:53 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Tommie, Tom, you live a lie. On top of that, you lie and gloat about lying.

      May 30, 2012 at 10:42 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Edwardo, if you're so keen about Tommie, Tom's post, why have you yet, figured out he is a she?

      May 30, 2012 at 10:44 am |
  20. Chad

    Fascinating reading.

    Is secular law really what you want? Yes? read on..


    Secular Law
    In order to be consistent with their worldview (that God does not exist and that humans are mere evolving perfectible animals), Secular Humanists must embrace a legal theory that is both atheistic and evolving. Their legal system must also deny any external or supernatural source of ethics, rights, or laws, including natural law and natural rights. Secular Humanists, therefore, cannot sincerely embrace statements such as, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness—That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed.”13

    To fit their evolutionary beliefs, some Secular Humanists simply redefine natural law as an inner guide. Yet to maintain consistency between their worldview and their legal theory, they must fully embrace legal positivism, which centers the creation of law within the state. Alistair Hannay explains the dilemma of a theory of law that rejects the Lawgiver: “Humanists naturally want to believe that we have moral obligations, duties in some virtually legalistic sense but not the product of arbitrary legislation, to one another. But on what can the belief be based?”14 Because its base is evolutionary theory (and the whims of the state), legal positivism results in an arbitrary legal system that discourages obedience and grants the state virtually unlimited authority.

    In stark contrast to Hannay’s dilemma, John Adams, the second president of the United States, says this about our legal foundation: “May that Being who is supreme over all, the Patron of Order, the Fountain of Justice, and the Protector in all ages of the world of virtuous liberty, continue His blessing upon this nation and its Government and give it all possible success and duration consistent with the ends of His providence.”15 Humanist law, therefore, faces a bitter choice: an inconsistent legal theory that embraces natural law, or a consistent legal positivism with its accompanying problems.

    May 29, 2012 at 10:58 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      *yawn* More cut-and-paste from the vegetable.

      May 29, 2012 at 11:00 pm |
    • katie

      Interesting reading. There certainly are a lot of theories out there aren't there. I don't know where I fit in but then I try not to put a label on myself, to be cliche, I would say I embrace some of these ideas but not all of them- but they are certainly worth attention. Thank you for posting this; it was thought provoking.

      May 30, 2012 at 1:01 am |
    • HeavenSent

      Chad, from personal experience dealing with them ...they are predators.

      May 30, 2012 at 10:47 am |
    • Get Real

      HeavenSent
      "... from personal experience dealing with them ...they are predators."

      Yeah... and your "personal experience" includes thinking that CNN has a "Mod Squad" who persecutes you and blocks your posts, even after being told repeatedly (for months & months) about the automatic word filter. Your "personal experience" is so tainted by your paranoia that there is zero credibility to it.

      May 30, 2012 at 12:20 pm |
    • fred

      Thank you Chad ! A breath of fresh air in contrast with all the delusional thoughts from the godless about how great the world would be without God.

      May 30, 2012 at 1:58 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      I asked Chad yesterday if he could provide his source for this tripe, and nothing yet. Also, cherry picking quotes from John Adams works both ways. Would you like some quotes from him that advocate the separation of the church and state and the legal foundation being secular?

      May 30, 2012 at 2:15 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      Also, believe whatever nonsense you want, just don't expect to be able to have legislation promoting your religion or your religions immoral acts.

      May 30, 2012 at 2:16 pm |
    • fred

      HawiiGuest
      Thank God for our freedom knowing the godless would never yield it. Iran is the prime example of what happens if either Church or State are allowed full control. The Nation of Israel was Hebrew and led by God. Then they demanded a King like the other nations and God warned them of the consequences. What God said would happen happened generation after generation. Man as always thinks his ways are better than Gods way as do you.
      The Tower of Babble was a blessing from God because the pure evil that results when a godless selfish group unite under one banner, one world order without God. In case you have not noticed the End of Days will culminate in a world order under the Beast.
      Iran, Hitler, Stalin Mao, etc all balanced by opposing forces of good because God knows any single superpower tends towards evil. Yet, you would propose a God free society superpower unbalanced or tempered by good.
      Seems to me you choose to reject any and all blessings God offers.

      May 30, 2012 at 2:49 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @fred

      More blind assertions, you need to start backing yourself with actual evidence. All your doing is spouting off random bits of nothingness.

      May 30, 2012 at 3:10 pm |
    • Chad

      Source: http://www.allaboutworldview.org/secular-law.htm

      There are two really important aspects of that info:
      1. It is absolutely inconceivable to attempt to posit the founding fathers embracing the concept of secular law.
      Absolutely Inconceivable

      Regardless of individual founders views on the divinity of Jesus Christ, they ALL believed in God, that natural laws existed, and that the government was established to enforce them.
      We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed – The Declaration of Independence

      2. The really key part of "secular law" is the embracement of legal positivism, which centers the creation of law within the state. This is the position that HawaiiGuest was putting forth as desirable, and which is of course catastrophic as you can see. It is the result of attempting to do away with the concept of universal right and wrong.

      The result of atheism is totalitarianism (North Korea, China, USSR).

      May 30, 2012 at 3:34 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "http://www.allaboutworldview.org"

      The president of this company is Greg Outlaw and owns many site affiliated to Allaboutgod Com Ministries. What's hysterical about this guy is he has no theology degrees and was a drug addict on morphine till 2001. What a joke.

      May 30, 2012 at 3:45 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Chad

      You are deliberately implying that all the founding fathers believed in the same God, but unfortunately for you some were deists, some were christians, some were even freethinkers. Rewriting history is something that many religious people have wanted to do often enough.
      You have yet to give an example of laws created by the state which have led to catastrophic ends. And universla right and wrong are merely concepts, and if they did exist, then your "god" is not needed for morality anyway. How exactly does atheism lead to totalitarianism? If you want to make an unwarranted assertion like that, how about christianity leads to dominionism and war.

      May 30, 2012 at 3:47 pm |
    • Chad

      @YeahRight "The president of this company is Greg Outlaw....

      An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it. It is a logical fallacy. 😉

      Now, if you dont like that clearly accurate definition, then use this one. It says the exact same thing 😉

      Legal positivists make some distinctive claims about what constitutes legal validity. It is difficult to improve on the following introduction offered by Leslie Green: "Whether a society has a legal system depends on the presence of certain structures of governance, not on the extent to which it satisfies ideals of justice, democracy, or the rule of law. What laws are in force in that system depends on what social standards its officials recognize as authoritative; for example, legislative enactments, judicial decisions, or social customs. The fact that a policy would be just, wise, efficient, or prudent is never sufficient reason for thinking that it is actually the law, and the fact that it is unjust, unwise, inefficient or imprudent is never sufficient reason for doubting it. According to positivism, law is a matter of what has been posited (ordered, decided, practiced, tolerated, etc.); as we might say in a more modern idiom, positivism is the view that law is a social construction

      Legal positivism says that a norm of any content can be a valid law, and that justice is an irrational ideal. Legal positivism leads to totalitarianism

      May 30, 2012 at 4:26 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it. It is a logical fallacy. 😉

      Now, if you dont like that clearly accurate definition, then use this one. It says the exact same thing "

      Still making excuses doesn't cover up the fact the guy is a joke with NO degrees. Duh

      May 30, 2012 at 5:32 pm |
    • Chad

      YeahRight "Still making excuses doesn't cover up the fact the guy is a joke with NO degrees. Duh"

      =>ah.. you ah.. you missed the content of the post.. namely that secular law (Legal positivism) leads to totalitarianism.

      May 30, 2012 at 7:26 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Get Real, you posted "HeavenSent, "... from personal experience dealing with them ...they are predators."

      Yeah... and your "personal experience" includes thinking that CNN has a "Mod Squad" who persecutes you and blocks your posts, even after being told repeatedly (for months & months) about the automatic word filter. Your "personal experience" is so tainted by your paranoia that there is zero credibility to it."

      Answer: LOL ... Bursting your bubble ... not everyone falls into paranoia because heartless fools target them. Sorry for not buckling. Back to the issue ...I've noticed that my posts are blocked each time my handle is highjacked by the thief posting their nonsense the same time I try to post. Their utilizing my handle can be on the same article, different page, or another article. It's double usage of same handles that blocks my posts.

      Wink, wink Get Real ... you're welcome for the update.

      May 30, 2012 at 11:33 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.