By Eric Marrapodi, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor
(CNN)–Hundreds of protesters gathered this weekend in Maiden, North Carolina, to voice their displeasure with a pastor's statement that gays and lesbians should be rounded up behind electric fences.
Sheriff Coy Reid estimated between 1,500 and 2,000 protestors came to the Catawba County Justice Center for a peaceful protest on Sunday. He said only two citations for noise violations were issued and there were no arrests.
The protest was organized by the Catawba Valley Citizens Against Hate in response to a Mother's Day sermon by Pastor Charles Worley at Providence Road Baptist Church in Maiden.
"I figured a way out, a way to get rid of all the lesbians and queers, but I couldn't get it past the Congress," Worley said to his congregation on May 13. A video of his comments went viral on YouTube.
"Build a great big, large fence - 50 or 100 miles long - and put all the lesbians in there," Worley said. "Fly over and drop some food. Do the same thing with the queers and the homosexuals, and have that fence electrified so they can't get out. Feed them. And you know in a few years, they'll die out. You know why? They can't reproduce."
Protestors chanted, "Love not hate," as the lined the road outside the Justice Center, which is 12 miles from thechurch.
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Organizers of the protest said they wanted to counter what they called the pastor's hateful words with love and stressed prior to the event that "our Peace Keepers will respond quickly and vigorously to any behavior that detracts from the peaceful, non-violent plans of this event."
On Friday night, vandals targeted the Providence Road Baptist Church, Lt. Daryl McCarty of the Catawba County Sheriff's office told CNN. "It appears that someone tried to set the air conditioning unit on fire in retaliation about his remarks against homosexuals and lesbians from the pulpit."
McCarty said there was "no extensive damage or anything. The incident appears to have happened on Friday night. It wasn't a big enough fire. It only burned the cover off of some wires."
An electric company easily repaired the damage Saturday, according to McCarty.
Sheriff Reid said trash was lit under the air conditioning unit to start the fire. The unit is up against a brick wall and he said it did not seem like the vandals were attempting to burn down the building, saying, "It appeared they were trying to disrupt the service."
The local fire marshal and a sheriff's deputy are investigating the fire further, Reid said.
He also noted that Worley had received death threats after his comments and his department was actively following up on them.
Repeated calls by CNN to the church and to the pastor's home for comment have not been returned. When Worley was approached outside his home on Sunday by CNN's Gary Tuchman and asked whether he would take back any of his comments, the pastor declined to comment.
The church's website has also been down, but it had described the house of worship as independent and fundamentalist. It represents a Baptist tradition self-described as "old-time religion" and the website said church members consider the 1611 King James Version of the Bible to be the "inerrant Word of God."
The church appears to be unconnected with any broader denomination. The Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Baptist group, noted the Providence Road Baptist in Maiden is not affiliated with its 16-million member denomination and condemned the pastor's comments.
Last week in Maiden, members of the church vigorously defended their pastor, who has been at the church for more than two decades.
Some church members, who declined to give their names, said his words had been taken out of context. "He said he would feed them!" some church members told CNN, referring to the Worley's idea for rounding up gays.
Worley "takes a real firm stand on the Bible and what it says about different things," said church member Joe Heffner. "Whether I like it or not or whether anybody else likes it."
Another church member, who declined to give his name, said that "being gay and lesbian or homosexual is wrong according to the Bible. ... It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve."
The sheriff said his deputies will be paying extra attention to the church building in the wake of the vandalism and threats. The church has about 300 members, he said.
Reid, who has been with the sheriff's department since 1979, said the area had never seen anything quite like this.
"We hope it's over," he said. "The protestors have had their say now, so we're hoping it all dies down."
-CNN's Dan Gilgoff, Ismael Estrada, Gary Tuchman, and Rick Martin contributed to this article.
Truth is, gays will never be accepted as part of main stream society. They need to get over themselves and learn to deal with it. They will always be looked at in disgust.
"Mainstream" is one word, like "halfwit."
Wrong. The World Health Organization, the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the American Counseling Association, and the American Academy of Pediatrics all say hom o$ ex uality is a normal unchangeable variant of human $e xuality. Get over it.
"Wrong. The World Health Organization, the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the American Counseling Association, and the American Academy of Pediatrics all say hom o$ ex uality is a normal unchangeable variant of human $e xuality. Get over it."
But still a sin.
@Topher – It's normal and unchangeable but it's still a sin? Are you serious?
You do understand it is you that is looked upon with disgust.....xxooo Canada
@Topher – I try not to let the Christian bible define "sin" for me since it condones slavery(Lev. 25:44), beating slaves(Exodus 21:20), incest(Genesis 19:33-36), r@pe victims being required to marry the r@pist(Deuteronomy 22:28-29), treating women and children as property(Genesis 19:8, 1 Timothy 2:11-14, 1 Corinthians 14:33-35), requires battered women to remain married to abusive husbands(Matthew 19:9, 1 Corinthians 7:10-12), condones jihad type warfare where all children are ki11ed save the virgins who are a 'reward'(Numbers 31:15), and makes no mention at all of child molestation, the worst possible crime.
... and people once claimed that women would never be equal to men, and that the slaves would never be able to read or vote. It's funny how history can prgoress to completely shame an oudated notion.
I understand you don't like what it says. But the question is ... Is it true?
Only hateful people of your ilk hold them in disgust. The rest of us hold people like you in disgust.
Hi, Jonah. Yeah, I know.
@Patrick – well said – unfortunately, I don't think @Topher is listening! ;)
@Topher – Of course it's not true that God allowed not just slavery but severe slave beating, because the slave is one's property. Just as a matter of morals I wouldn't worship a God who came up with that at any time for any people. Your bible is likely a test from the Real Creator. And you're failing. If our Creator said anything about slavery, it would be "One person owning another is WRONG."
@Topher – Actually gay men who are living in denial married to women (or who run and hide in the Priesthood) sometimes have stunted $exual attractions to children because they repressed their $exuality so that it didn't develop normally – they are high risk for molesting children.
To the extent which someone represses their $exuality, there will be a proportional lack of age progression in their $exual attractions. To the extent which someone represses their $exuality, there will be a proportional increase in obsession with their $exuality. Common sense Modern Psychology works much better than the bible.
No Patrick is correct. Sin is defined as the defiance of God's will and it does appear that being gay is considered sinful. But just like a Horcrux is a portion of Voldemorts soul in Harry Potter, God and sin are just fantasy fabrications. Not to be taken seriously by grown ups.
Tom, you're 100% correct. No amount of support from sick minded media organizations, like CNN, will make it anything more than what it is. Deviant and perverted.
@Topher – Even Jesus and Paul made it clear that most het ero $se xuals couldn't remain celibate (though that was preferable) and should marry because it's better to marry than to burn with passion. Are you saying that all ho mo$ ex uals are somehow equipped to do what Jesus and Paul said most he ter o$e xuals could not???
@Larry. You're 100% wrong. Society is moving away from bigotry just as it moved away from racism.
...and what color is the President of the United States? The Secretary of State... is it a she or a he?
People who identify as other than hetero$exual ARE accepted in mainstream society. Right now. Today. Embraced and loved and supported by their neighbours and doing the same in return. And there's nothing you can do about it. What is good and decent and in the best interests of the greater whole will always rise, even if it takes tens or hundreds of years. People like you are dinosaurs, you just haven't accepted it yet.
In the United States (a world leader?? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha) perhaps but not in the civilized world. Civilized societies embrace everyone. Third rate countries try to feel better by always having human punching bags. Germany: Jews. Rwanda: Hutus, United States: gays,,,,etc etc etc.
You mean Obama?...the most hated and vilified president by conservative white Americans ever? Racism is alive and well in the US.
The god of the bible has already been showed through logical reasoning that it was made up by ignorant men who lived at that time. Therefore calling something a 'sin' from that same book is laughable. People who dont think critically, and r brainwashed from childhood to believe in these fairy tales are the only people who still buy this stuff.
"Just as a matter of morals I wouldn't worship a God who came up with that at any time for any people."
So you have morals? But what authority do you get those?
And the slavery of the Bible is not like the racist slavery known in this country. So try again.
We are selfish creatures by nature, yet our survival depends on cooperation. In order to balance these two conflicting instincts, mankind has had to develop rules that allow room for both.
These rules are not the same for all communities – hence we've had so many different types of religion and government throughout history.
Religion binds communities together by giving a common frame of reference. Shared fears (like divine retribution), hopes (like going to heaven) and rituals allow the instinct for self preservation to extend beyond one's self and immediate family.
This is why the great majority of evolutionary biologists find no conflict between religion and science – as long as religion is recognized solely as a social adaptation.
Slavery in the bible was still slavery. Indentured servitude to pay off debts was reserved only for fellow Hebrews. Heathen and foreigners were chattel to be passed down as property.
"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way." (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
"The god of the bible has already been showed through logical reasoning that it was made up by ignorant men who lived at that time."
What evidence do you have that shows the Bible is untrue?
"People who dont think critically, and r brainwashed from childhood to believe in these fairy tales are the only people who still buy this stuff."
Nope. I wasn't a Christian as a child. I was a raging athiest into my late teens. And my parents aren't Christians, so I wasn't "brainwashed."
By what reasoning do you decide that morality requires authority? Morals are not fixed things. They are the conclusions of a process of weighing the pros and cons of each and every considered situation.
So morals change between people groups? Perhaps from society to society? So you're saying they're just opinions?
Science has debunked much of the Bible. The Flood, creation in Genesis, Adam and Eve, miracles, the efficacy of prayer...all have fallen under scrutiny using the scientific method. To believe is to accept magic and supersti.tion.
"Science has debunked much of the Bible."
That's not true. First, science doesn't say anything, scientists do. There's plenty of scientists who disagree with the Bible because they have a secular view to start with so the evidence they observe can be matched with their beliefs. Just as there are Christian scientists who say science agrees with the Bible because they start with a Christian worldview.
"The Flood, creation in Genesis, Adam and Eve, miracles, the efficacy of prayer...all have fallen under scrutiny using the scientific method. To believe is to accept magic and supersti.tion."
Is "under scrutiny" the best you have? That doesn't mean disproven at all.
No...not opinions...conclusions based on observed facts. No one could justify pedophilia when an accurate accounting of pros verses cons is applied. If you lack enough information then a faulty conclusion could be reached by a group or society....like thinking gay is immoral. Some things are so universally accepted that it appears like a moral is objective but in reality they are subjective.
"No...not opinions...conclusions based on observed facts."
And if I don't agree with your conclusions? Seems like it's your opinion against mine.
"No one could justify pedophilia when an accurate accounting of pros verses cons is applied."
What if the "pedophile" just wants to sleep with his girlfriend who is only a day underage? She's willing. Who does it hurt?
Science isn't out to prove or disprove God. It merely describes reality in terms of evidence and facts. The Bible does not. Not one single claim made in the Bible with respect to those things I mentioned have ever been shown to satisfy the rigors of scientific inquiry. The pseudoscience posited by Intelligent Design and its ilk fail and cannot be reproduced, verified or peer reviewed.
****But still a sin.
Not in my religion its not.
You dont seem to understand that, do you.
"Not one single claim made in the Bible with respect to those things I mentioned have ever been shown to satisfy the rigors of scientific inquiry."
Again, there's plenty of scientists who disagree with you. There's even Grand Canyon tours that go down the river looking at the rock layers and fossils and demonstrating it as evidence of the flood.
"The pseudoscience posited by Intelligent Design and its ilk fail and cannot be reproduced, verified or peer reviewed."
If you mean the "Intelligent Design Movement" I'd agree with you. It isn't necessarily Christian, either. The fact is, science, based on your worldview, no matter which it is, can be reproduced, verified and peer reviewed.
So you'd like me to be tolerant of your religion?
"And if I don't agree with your conclusions? Seems like it's your opinion against mine.
"No one could justify pedophilia when an accurate accounting of pros verses cons is applied."
What if the "pedophile" just wants to sleep with his girlfriend who is only a day underage? She's willing. Who does it hurt?"
Morality isn't a personal choice....it's a construct of a society. Ethics, compassion, empathy and justice are it's parameters. Our laws are based on this and your cited example would still be immoral. The line has been crossed, however slightly and should be addressed in a manner consistent with its severity. Unlike your Biblical interpretation morals are not black and white...gray ares exist.
HaHaHa..the Grand Canyon example is perfect. No qualified geologist anywhere accepts the preposterous conclusions made about it being evidence for the flood. That's exactly the pseudoscience I referenced. That quackery has been exposed for the hogwash it is....thanks for proving my point.
"No qualified geologist anywhere accepts the preposterous conclusions made about it being evidence for the flood. That's exactly the pseudoscience I referenced. That quackery has been exposed for the hogwash it is....thanks for proving my point."
"Quackery" ... again, by whose standard?
Obviously, the flood geology explanation for fossil sorting is ludicrously at odds with evidence. Firstly it neglects that fossils are sorted by their ability to escape flood waters would mean animals are found in that order in the fossil record. This is not observed to be the case, with animals of different sizes and physical ability being scattered throughout the geological strata – there seems to be no ordering by physical ability. Secondly, such a theory would suggest only a statistical tendency. That is, there is a chance that some animals that would otherwise have been capable of outrunning flood waters would still fall early and drown, while those that wouldn't outrun the waters may have been lucky enough to be in the right place to get a bit further than the rest. In reality, the fossil record shows absolutely no fossils out of order. Organisms never appear in more recent rock than their descendants. Similarly, mass extinction events such as the KT boundary provide very fine lines that cut off the fossil record – this is incompatible with the idea that all rock sediment was laid down only a few thousand years ago in a massive flood.
Fossils are found in geological strata with older organisms at the bottom and newer organisms at the top. Not by coincidence, this also matches up with evolutionary theories; the less developed organisms are found lower in the rock strata while their descendants are found above. Flood geology often tries to solve this problem by invoking a form of "sorting" during the flood. YEC belief necessitates that all animals found in the fossil record were alive and interacting at the same time – including dinosaurs and people. The fossil sorting is stated to be because smaller, less developed animals counldn't outrun the flood waters so are found buried at the bottom, while the more advanced animals are found at the top because they could outrun the flood waters.
Right you are Tom, whatever a qu-eer touches is tainted. Qu-eers the people that gave the world AIDS
"Thus the evidence within the Coconino Sandstone does not support the evolutionary geologists interpretation of slow and gradual deposition of sand in a desert environment with dunes being climbed by wandering four-footed vertebrates. On the contrary, a careful examination of the evidence, backed up by experiments and observations of processes operating today indicates catastrophic deposition of the sand by deep fast-moving water in a matter of days, totally consistent with conditions envisaged during the Flood."
... from "Footprints and Sand ‘Dunes’ in a Grand Canyon Sandstone!"
@AtheistSteve "Obviously, the flood geology explanation for fossil sorting is ludicrously at odds with evidence. "
– when was the flood?
– was it a flood that covered the entire planet, or a flood that covered the entire earth as the people of that day knew the earth to be? What evidence do you have of which ever position you take?
Science has not "debunked" anything:all the evidence has not even been assembled yet. We are still learning unless like steve one jumps to a conclusion based on a predisposed hatred of all things Biblical. God bless
1.Real scientists have never disputed that footprints can be made underwater. The only Creationists who think this claim is in any way a challenge to real science are Flood-believing YECs, apparently on the grounds that any underwater footprints must be evidence of the Noachian Flood - which grounds are, of course, completely invalid in the absence of any reason to believe that said Flood actually occurred.
"apparently on the grounds that any underwater footprints must be evidence of the Noachian Flood – which grounds are, of course, completely invalid in the absence of any reason to believe that said Flood actually occurred."
Read the article.
Also, what about the fact a lot of cultures have a flood story. No, that's not proof, but it is evidence there was a massive flood that covered the earth. There's plenty of resources that argue in the affirmative based on science of a global flood. You can deny it if you want, but I just listed one for you. I'll find others for you if you're actually interested.
Chad, the authors of genesis clearly thought it was the entire planet. How else could (i) all humans except Noah and his family be wiped out; (ii) all animals except those on the ark be killed; (iii) the water be around for about a year over the hight of Mt. Ararat; (iv) all languages be wiped out and have to begin again in th Tower of Babel.
You constantly try to shoehorn Bronze Age mythology into modern views of the World. Never works.
@Colin "The authors of genesis clearly thought it was the entire planet. How else could (i) all humans except Noah and his family be wiped out; (ii) all animals except those on the ark be killed; (iii) the water be around for about a year over the hight of Mt. Ararat; (iv) all languages be wiped out and have to begin again in th Tower of Babel."
@Chad "a) I would agree that is what the authors thought b) that doesnt establish whether it was or wasn't c) there are good exegesis of Genesis for each position.
Personally I believe it was a planet wide flood, but the really critical question in my mind to ask is the one you didn't attempt to answer... when was the flood?
You constantly try to shoehorn Bronze Age mythology into modern views of the World. Never works.
stray sentence .. ignore "You constantly...."
Sorry Topher but all your young earth creationist references are not supported by the scientific community. That's just the way it is. If it were then oil companies would be using Flood geology to discover new deposits. Nice try though. Learn some real science instead of following quacks with predisposed agendas to try and tweak the evidence to suit their needs. That's exactly backwards with how science makes it's discoveries. Observe the facts and come to a conclusion...not assume a conclusion and search for the facts to support it while ignoring all contrary evidence..
Never...the Biblical Flood story is a myth.
"Learn some real science instead of following quacks with predisposed agendas to try and tweak the evidence to suit their needs."
That's what you're doing. You have preconceived notions. And you don't want to hear the problems with secular science. For instance the moon distance problem. It is consistant with a young earth, but you deny it because you have a secular worldview.
If you are what is defined as "mainstream," I can't imagine why anyone would want to be part of that shrinking social circle.
How is the moon's distance a problem? Science has a perfectly reasonable explanation for the origin and position of the moon. You do know it was once much closer and is still spiraling out away from us.
"You do know it was once much closer and is still spiraling out away from us."
Yes! Good! This is exactly what I'm talking about. Yes, we know the moon is moving farther away from the earth and we even know how much it moves every year. Thus we can make a mathematical equation. At 1.5 million years ago (or was it 1.5 billion?) the moon would have touched the earth. Thus, the moon can't possibly be as old as the secular world says it is. However this equation fits perfectly within the Biblical worldview of a young earth.
Preconceived how? For example the discovery of plate tectonics was completely unexpected and not accepted by the scientists of its day until mounting evidence bore out the conclusions. The evidence reveals the truth and nothing in the Bible stories of the Flood have mounting evidence in its support. Quite the opposite in fact. You have to jump through some serious hoops to make that idea stick.
Before even doing whatever scientific study you do, you believe the Bible is a lie and that there was no global flood. Thus any evidence to the contrary you find some other reason for. We all do it. Christians, too.
Sorry topher...the math doesn't bear that out. The moon was formed shortly after the earth likely with a collision with a mars sized proto planet.The moon formed out of ejected mantle from the earth and coalesced out of that ring of material. It has always been in orbit and the reason it is farther now is by stealing angular momentum from the earth through tidal forces.. A day on early earth was just 6 hours when it was much closer. Your sources know noting about orbital mechanics when making such ridiculous statements.
"Sorry topher...the math doesn't bear that out."
It does, actually. Page 57 of "Taking Back Astronomy" ...
"The constant k can be found using the current measure rate of lunar recession: 3.8 cm/year. Thus, k=r(to the sixth)dr/dt = (384,401km)to the sixth x (.000038km/year) = 1.2 x 10 to the 29th km to the seventh/year. The lunar recenssion equation is then solved for the extreme case (the upper limit on age of the moon): ... Here, T is the maximum age for the moon since this assume it migrated from a distance of zero to its current distance of R = 384,401 km. Plugging in the known values give an upper limit on the age of the earth-moon system of T = 1.5 billion years — much less than the 4.5 billion years that evolutionists require."
"The moon was formed shortly after the earth likely with a collision with a mars sized proto planet.The moon formed out of ejected mantle from the earth and coalesced out of that ring of material. It has always been in orbit and the reason it is farther now is by stealing angular momentum from the earth through tidal forces.. A day on early earth was just 6 hours when it was much closer. Your sources know noting about orbital mechanics when making such ridiculous statements."
Likely? Where's the evidence for this? It takes just as much faith to believe this as it does to be a believer. You can't state any of this as fact as no one was there to observe it. This is all conjecture.
Again...science isn't out to prove that the Earth isn't riding the back of some giant tortoise either. Religious ideas are not considered at all when doing science...that's what makes it science. No preconceived notions other than the laws of physics. If evidence to prove the Flood existed then science would have no choice but to accept it. That isn't the case. No matter how you try to project otherwise. Chasing a conclusion without a solid basis in fact isn't science and that's what you're talking about. Evolution has overwhelming evidenciary support but naysayers point to any tiny inconsistency, gap or hoax as clearly demonstrating it as false. That is simply bad reasoning. Anomalies exist in nearly every discipline. Science doesn't have all the answers and doesn't deal in absolutes( only religion does that) but it is the best and only way we have to discover what is true.
"Science doesn't have all the answers and doesn't deal in absolutes( only religion does that) but it is the best and only way we have to discover what is true."
I agree with you. But when your own science goes against what you say, you need to look at the other possiblities. See the moon equation. The evidence doesn't fit with an old Earth. You can keep saying there's no evidence for a young earth but you're fooling youself. There's tons of it.
But we've gotten slightly off topic here. Let me ask you this, what are the reasons you don't believe in God? Is it just the science or did you have a bad experience with religion? I'm honetly curious.
that Noah was born 126 years after Adam's death at age 930, which brings us to the year 1056.
Gen 7:6 tells us that Noah was 600 years old when the flood came, which brings us to the year 1656.
If the Earth is 6,000 years old, minus 1656 gives us 4,344 years since Noah built the Ark.
The oldest living tree thus far found (measured by ring count) was a Great Basin Bristlecone Pine which was 4,862 years old. That means the tree was around 400 years older than Noah's oldest son Ja.pheth when the flood happened.
In California there is a colony of Palmer's Oak trees called Jurupa Oak that has been alive 13,000 years through clonal reproduction.
Professor Frank Vasek confirmed the age of a Creosote bush in the Mojave Desert known as "King Clone" using two different methods. His project counted rings and measured the distance of annual growth, and then used radiocarbon dating on chunks of wood found in the center of the ring. Both dating methods yielded an age of 11,700 years.
That makes the plant more than 7000 years older than Noah's flood.
"= 1.5 billion years — much less than the 4.5 billion years that evolutionists require."
This pretty much nails the problem you are having. Evolution has nothing whatsoever to do with astronomy. The evidence that the early solar system was full of bombardment is clear from viewing the craters on every object in it. The model of that particular collision scenario is just the best example of how it would create the moon we see today. All perfectly consistent with the laws of physics. No faith required...just a logical explanation. If you choose to ignore science then so be it...but why then are you playing with your atheistic sciency computer.
I was raised Catholic Topher. I abandoned my faith in my teens when it no longer seemed relevant or logically consistent. Much the same way I gave up believing in Santa Claus...there wasn't much difference in my opinion. Far fetched and preposterous claims that didn't mesh with reality. No anger or trauma made me leave the fold...just common sense. Sorry if that doesn't mesh with your idea that I have some deep seated hate for religion...I just view it as a monumental waste of time and effort. It does bother me when religious views are touted as if they should be accepted unilaterally as societal norms though.
I tried out the Catholic church, too. I couldn't stick with it because of their teachings contradictory to the Bible.
To get a gauge of just how inane the belief in intelligent design is in the 21st Century, here are some areas they must ignore, any one of which proves beyond rational argument that, not surprisingly, the World did not start about 6,000 years ago at the behest of the Judeo-Christian god, with one man, one woman and a talking snake.
First and most obviously is the fossil record. The fossil record is much, much more than just dinosaurs. Indeed, dinosaurs only get the press because of their size, but they make up less than 1% of the entire fossil record. Life had been evolving on Earth for over 3 thousand million years before dinosaurs evolved and has gone on evolving for 65 million years after the Chicxulub meteor wiped them out.
The fossil record includes the Stromatolites, colonies of prokaryotic bacteria, that range in age going back to about 3 billion years, the Ediacara fossils from South Australia, widely regarded as among the earliest multi-celled organisms, the Cambrian species of the Burgess shale in Canada (circa – 450 million years) the giant scorpions of the Silurian Period, the giant, wingless insects of the Devonian period, the insects, amphibians, reptiles; fishes, clams, crustaceans of the Carboniferous Period, the many precursors to the dinosaurs, the dinosaurs themselves, the subsequent dominant mammals, including the saber tooth tiger, the mammoths of North America and Asia, the fossils of early man in Africa and the Neanderthals of Europe.
The fossil record shows a consistent and worldwide evolution of life on Earth dating back to about 3,500,000,000 years ago. There are literally millions of fossils that have been recovered, of thousands of different species and they are all located where they would be in the geological record if life evolved slowly over billions of years. None of them can be explained by a 6,000 year old Earth and Noah’s flood. Were they all on the ark? What happened to them when it docked?
Lions, tigers, bears, and wolves eat a lot of food – meat- which means its food would itself have to have been fed, like the food of every other carnivore on the ark. A bit of “back of the envelope” math quickly shows that “Noah’s Ark” would actually have to have been an armada of ships bigger than the D Day invasion force, manned by thousands and thousands of people – and this is without including the World’s 300,000 current species of plants, none of which could walk merrily in twos onto the Ark.
Secondly, there are those little things we call oil, natural gas and other fossil fuels. Their mere existence is another, independent and fatal blow to the creationists. Speak to any geologist who works for Exxon Mobil, Shell or any of the thousands of mining, oil or natural gas related companies that make a living finding fossil fuels. They will tell you these fossil fuels take millions of years to develop from the remains of large forests (in the case of coal) or tiny marine creatures (in the case of oil). That’s why they are called fossil fuels. Have a close look at coal, you can often see the fossilized leaves in it. The geologists know exactly what rocks to look for fossil fuels in, because they know how to date the rocks to millions of years ago. Creationists have no credible explanation for this (nor for why most of it was “given to the Muslims”).
Thirdly, most of astronomy and cosmology would be wrong if the creationists were right. In short, as Einstein showed, light travels at a set speed. Space is so large that light from distant stars takes many years to reach the Earth. In some cases, this is millions or billions of years. The fact that we can see light from such far away stars means it began its journey billions of years ago. The Universe must be billions of years old. We can currently see galaxies whose light left home 13.7 billion years ago. Indeed, on a clear night, one can see many stars more than 6,000 light years away with the naked eye, shining down like tiny silent witnesses against the nonsense of creationism.
Fourthly, we have not just carbon dating, but also all other methods used by scientists to date wood, rocks, fossils, and other artifacts. These comprehensively disprove the Bible’s claims. They include uranium-lead dating, potassium-argon dating as well as other non-radioactive methods such as pollen dating, dendrochronology and ice core dating. In order for any particular rock, fossil or other artifact to be aged, generally two or more samples are dated independently by two or more laboratories in order to ensure an accurate result. If results were random, as creationists claim, the two independent results would rarely agree. They generally do. They regularly reveal ages much older than Genesis. Indeed, the Earth is about 750,000 times older than the Bible claims.
Fifthly, the relatively new field of DNA mapping not only convicts criminals, it shows in undeniable, full detail how we differ from other life forms on the planet. For example, about 98.4% of human DNA is identical to that of chimpanzees, about 97% of human DNA is identical to that of gorillas, and slightly less again of human DNA is identical to the DNA of monkeys. This gradual divergence in DNA can only be rationally explained by the two species diverging from a common ancestor, and coincides perfectly with the fossil record. Indeed, scientists can use the percentage of DNA that two animal share (such as humans and bears, or domestic dogs and wolves) to get an idea of how long ago the last common ancestor of both species lived. It perfectly corroborates the fossil record and is completely independently developed. It acts as yet another fatal blow to the “talking snake” theory.
Sixthly, the entire field of historical linguistics would have to be rewritten to accommodate the Bible. This discipline studies how languages develop and diverge over time. For example, Spanish and Italian are very similar and have a recent common “ancestor” language, Latin, as most people know. However, Russian is quite different and therefore either did not share a common root, or branched off much earlier in time. No respected linguist anywhere in the World traces languages back to the Tower of Babel, the creationists’ explanation for different languages. Indeed, American Indians, Australian Aboriginals, “true” Indians, Chinese, Mongols, Ja.panese, Sub-Saharan Africans and the Celts and other tribes of ancient Europe were speaking thousands of different languages thousands of years before the date creationist say the Tower of Babel occurred – and even well before the date they claim for the Garden of Eden.
Seventhly, lactose intolerance is also a clear vestige of human evolution. Most mammals only consume milk as infants. After infancy, they no longer produce the enzyme “lactase” that digests the lactose in milk and so become lactose intolerant. Humans are an exception and can drink milk as adults – but not all humans – some humans remain lactose intolerant. So which humans are no longer lactose intolerant? The answer is those who evolved over the past few thousand years raising cows. They evolved slightly to keep producing lactase as adults so as to allow the consumption of milk as adults. This includes most Europeans and some Africans, notably the Tutsi of Rwanda. On the other hand, most Chinese, native Americans and Aboriginal Australians, whose ancestors did not raise cattle, remain lactose intolerant.
I could go on and elaborate on a number of other disciplines or facts that creationists have to pretend into oblivion to retain their faith, including the Ice Ages, cavemen and early hominids, much of microbiology, paleontology and archeology, continental drift and plate tectonics, even large parts of medical research (medical research on monkeys and mice only works because they share a common ancestor with us and therefore our fundamental cell biology and basic body architecture is identical to theirs).
In short, and not surprisingly, the World’s most gifted evolutionary biologists, astronomers, cosmologists, geologists, archeologists, paleontologists, historians, modern medical researchers and linguists (and about 2,000 years of accu.mulated knowledge) are right and a handful of Iron Age Middle Eastern goat herders were wrong.
"It does bother me when religious views are touted as if they should be accepted unilaterally as societal norms though."
Efforts to include "creation science" in schools, persecution of gays, trying to make birth control illegal, efforts to interfere with a woman's right to choose what to do with her own reproductive system, stopping stem cell research, euthanasia, religion in politics...to name a few.
Efforts to include "creation science" in schools, persecution of gays,, efforts to interfere with a woman's right to choose what to do with her own reproductive system, stopping stem cell research, euthanasia, religion in politics...to name a few.
"Efforts to include "creation science" in schools" ... then let's also not teach evolution in schools.
"persecution of gays" ... who is being persecuted? They have every right to live with and sleep with anyone they want.
"trying to make birth control illegal" ... honestly that's a new one to me. I know Christians don't like oral contraceptives, but I've not heard of a fight to make them illegal.
"efforts to interfere with a woman's right to choose what to do with her own reproductive system" ... what about the child's right to life?
They should get that woman to be their spokesperson, the one who could not for a coherrant sentance on the clip with anderson cooper, from a few days ago." No, you are not er.... listening..... yes he did say that..... um , yeah, I stand by what my pastor said, it's er..... the media...... "
So sad to be born and live your life in spite, hate and judgement of others.....
Sorry Topher but all your young earth creationist references are not supported by the scientific community. That's just the way it is. If it were then oil companies would be using Flood geology to discover new deposits. Nice try though. Learn some real science instead of following quacks with predisposed agendas to try and tweak the evidence to suit their needs. That's exactly backwards with how science makes it's discoveries.
A few questions should help shed light on the relationship between Christians and rational thought.
The completely absurd theory that all 7,000,000,000 human beings are simultaneously being supervised 24 hours a day, every day of their lives by an immortal, invisible being for the purposes of reward or punishment in the “afterlife” comes from the field of:
(c) Economics; or
You are about 70% likely to believe the entire Universe began less than 10,000 years ago with only one man, one woman and a talking snake if you are a:
(c) NASA astronomer; or
I have convinced myself that gay $ex is a choice and not genetic, but then have no explanation as to why only gay people have ho.mo$exual urges. I am
(a) A gifted psychologist
(b) A well respected geneticist
(c) A highly educated sociologist
(d) A Christian with the remarkable ability to ignore inconvenient facts.
If I honestly believe that, when I think silent thoughts like, “please god, help me pass my exam tomorrow,” some invisible being is reading my mind and will intervene and alter what would otherwise be the course of history in small ways to help me, I am
(a) a delusional schizophrenic;
(b) a naïve child, too young to know that that is silly
(c) an ignorant farmer from Sudan who never had the benefit of even a fifth grade education; or
(d) your average Christian
Millions and millions of Catholics believe that bread and wine turns into the actual flesh and blood of a dead Jew from 2,000 years ago because:
(a) there are obvious visible changes in the condiments after the Catholic priest does his hocus pocus;
(b) tests have confirmed a divine presence in the bread and wine;
(c) now and then their god shows up and confirms this story; or
(d) their religious convictions tell them to blindly accept this completely fvcking absurd nonsense.
I believe that an all powerful being, capable of creating the entire cosmos watches me have $ex to make sure I don't do anything "naughty". I am
(a) A victim of child molestation
(b) A r.ape victim trying to recover
(c) A mental patient with paranoid delusions
(d) A Christian
The only discipline known to often cause people to kill others they have never met and/or to commit suicide in its furtherance is:
(c) Archeology; or
What is it that most differentiates science and all other intellectual disciplines from religion:
(a) Religion tells people not only what they should believe, but what they are morally obliged to believe on pain of divine retribution, whereas science, economics, medicine etc. has no “sacred cows” in terms of doctrine and go where the evidence leads them;
(b) Religion can make a statement, such as “there is a composite god comprised of God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit”, and be totally immune from experimentation and challenge, whereas science can only make factual assertions when supported by considerable evidence;
(c) Science and the scientific method is universal and consistent all over the World whereas religion is regional and a person’s religious conviction, no matter how deeply held, is clearly nothing more than an accident of birth; or
(d) All of the above.
If I am found wandering the streets flagellating myself, wading into a filth river, mutilating my child’s genitals or kneeling down in a church believing that a being is somehow reading my inner thoughts and prayers, I am likely driven by:
(a) a deep psychiatric issue;
(b) an irrational fear or phobia;
(c) a severe mental degeneration caused by years of drug abuse; or
(d) my religious belief.
Who am I? I don’t pay any taxes. I never have. Any money my organization earns is tax free and my own salary is also tax free, at the federal, state and local level. Despite contributing nothing to society, but still enjoying all its benefits, I feel I have the right to tell others what to do. I am
(a) A sleazy Wall Street banker
(b) A mafia boss
(c) A drug pusher; or
(d) A Catholic Priest, Protestant Minister or Jewish Rabbi.
you athiests are too funny. Seriously, God is real and he will give everyone what they deserve in the end. If people repent and turn to Jesus Christ who conquered sin for the world, God will have mercy on them. If they do not repent and turn to Jesus Christ, they will burn forever in their sins. God created everyone so he requires that all who want the reward of God's holy presence, obey him. God lent everyone a body and he demands that all submit to his holyness. Without God's holyness, the world fails. Submit thru Christ for a new mind and new ways. He is waiting and he is willing to save all who humble themselves. All others will burn in their sins
There truly is no hope for you. You've bought into the lies hook,line and sinker. Such a waste of your one and only life. I'm so sorry for you blindly following the blind.
In multiple choice, when i am confused about an answer, i always select(d) All of the above.
But nice post!
I think believers r beyond funny. They r just BLIND sheep with no rational working brain when it comes to their religion. What if i pose some rational thoughts to u about the validity of Jesus being god? Will u ignore them without a logical answer? If u do then u just prove Colin's point. Let me bring up some rational points on why i think that Jesus is not god:
Jesus like the people of his time, thought that the earth was flat. It is because of this flaw that it makes me doubt that Jesus was godly.
For example, Revelation 1:7: "Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him..." In this passage Jesus will return on judgment day in the clouds for ALL eyes to see him. All the people could see him in his return only if the world was flat. But because the world is round, less than 1/8th of the worlds population will see him. How come Jesus or the writer of revelation did not know this?
Another example: in describing the temptation of Jesus by Satan, Matthew 4:8 says, "Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world (cosmos) in their glory." You see the problem with this statement too, don't u? Again, u can only see the entire earth from a mountain top if the earth was flat. But because it is round, it is not possible to see the entire earth from a mountain top. Surprisingly, both satan and Jesus who were of supernatural/godly status did not know this?
This shows that Jesus shared the same belief of the ignorant people of his time that the earth was flat as implied by the above bible quotes. It is because of these problems of the bible implying a flat earth that it is hard for me to believe that Jesus is actually the son of god.
Now Al, I brought this to ur attention to get a blind believer like u to actually rationally THINK about what u r believing in, and in this sense u would get a feel for why rational people (atheists and the like) reject ur religious doctrines and claim that Jesus is god/the son of god.
Hight five, and a cold beer !!!!!
Well done, Colin.
You left out the most appropriate response to all your bull sh it. I vote (e) Colin a self righteous bigot motivated by hatred.
Looks like you hit perver t alert a little bit too close to home, Colin.
In My humble opinion, America and the world as a whole would be better off without ANY religion. Or . . . let them have their religious beliefs, but don't reward them by making THEM "tax exempt" - make them pay more - that'll fix it! Americans United For Separation of Church and State!
The pastor wouldn't have to get so worked up if the president and others had not waged a war on Christians.
Yes, it's called "education."
really, name one act of war on christianity.
It's not the president who is talking about putting people behind electric fences.
ahahahahahahaha get over yourself buddy
The only "war" is the attempt of the American Taliban to make the US into a Theocracy.
Here comes the "victim" card.
The only war here is the one "christians" are waging on the MINORITY in this country.
Anyone who likes bacon is allowed outside the fence.
Being gay is surely against the Bible teachings as is stealing, lying, adultery etc. We ALL are sinners. Having a Pastor say to place any group of sinners which is ALL of us behind a electric fence is wrong. The pastor needs to express love yet still preach the bible. He messed up and should own up to his giant mistake.
What he should have done, as a true person of godliness, is to reinforce the teachings of the bible.
Leviticus 20:13 clearly states that gays must be put to death.
Who, in the 21st Century, gives a damn about what a group of Palestinian goat herders thought in the late Iron Age Middle East?
@colin. A particularly mindless group of cultists do. They call themselves "christian" but give no evidence of emulating Christ.
This tea bagger is calling for fellow Americans to be put in concentration camps until they "die off".
And he endorses Romney.
stupid is as stupid does.... the bible thumpers will now have a rally for the Pastor and his fear hate mongering. ah christians the last religion of PEACE AND LUV via hate and bigotry....
So many Christians, so few lions.
Is that the same as so many Jews and so little gas chambers?
So many blacks and so few branchs to lynch them from ...
Amazing how people fight hate by echoing hate.
@Mark. Jews and Blacks were made so by "God." Bigoted self-labeled "christians" were made so not by a god but by hate, fear, and anger.
Has anyone informed the pastor that gays and lesbians are the offspring of straight couples? So while the caged up ones are dying off more of them would be born outside the fence amongst the straight people.... On top of being intolerant he is also stupid, why does anyone sit to listen to people like this speak nonsense?
Please dont try to make the fundiots think. Their heads might explode.
Yes, that IS the point - his ignorance created his intolerance!
why does anyone sit to listen to people like this speak nonsense?
because the listeners/followers are also non-thinking sheep
Stupid believes stupid things. Remember what Forrest Gump said?
From the article: the website said church members consider the 1611 King James Version of the Bible to be the "inerrant Word of God."
Apparently they don't know that King James was gay.
I wonder how they feel about the polygamy in the Old Testament, or the ages of many of the young brides.
If there is a demographic in America more small-minded, ignorant and wilfully blind to facts they find displeasing than conservative Christians, I am yet to encounter it. I swear, about 80% of these simpletons still take Adam and Eve as literal truth! A 6,000 year old Universe and a talking snake, for the love of giod !!!
I'm happy the "good" pastor is speaking his mind. It exposes the truth of what the majority of christians truly, at least the ones I've met, believe. Stupid spell checker wants me to capitalize "christian". What a joke.
Why is it the conservative fundies who claim they want less government, who are issuing bans against gay marriage? And why aren't they concerned with topics that Jesus actually spoke about, like divorce and remarriage?
Matthew 19: (Jesus Speaking) 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for $e xual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
1 Corinthians 7:10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
Why aren't they trying to ban remarriage when the divorce was due only to irreconcilable differences??? Why aren't they trying to ban no fault divorce? Could someone from their side please explain how that isn't hypocrisy?
I could be wrong, but i think its because they think of "God" as a person.
A supreme being.
God is just the natural universe.
Early man used to worship the "sun".
Somebody changed it to "son".
Its been a mess ever since.
People like this just reinforce my atheism.
I believe in God but I don't believe religion has anything to do with God. I'm Pantheist so I believe God can be found in the laws and wonders of the universe, not in ANY church! I do believe that people should be able to practice whatever they believe, but they have to do it in such a way so as NOT to impose their musings on the rest of us!
Keep looking for reinforcements for your lack of belief in GOD from what another says brother cause you are going to need all the useless reinforcements you can get when you face your creator.
I have no delusions about the nature of reality and so have no concerns whatever about meeting my creator.
I see my creators all the time. They are called 'mom' and 'dad'.
I guess Bible believer hopes that anyone who does not join his club will burn in hell for eternity. Very loving of him. I would never join a club that holds such hateful beliefs.
My creator was my mother and father.
God had nothing to do with it.
@freedom from religion.
MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU.
This pastor is doing what all fundamentalists do (of any religion): Use God to justify their hateful actions.
This pastor should wear a huge red letter "I" on his chest - Ignorant! He's just plain stupid . . . how on earth did THIS man become the leader of anything? He wears his ignorance like a badge of honor - I hope his church folds and he has to get a real job (good luck with that)!
Where can I get my WWJH wrist band? (Who would Jesus hate?)
According to the religious people in the world . . "JHE" . . . Jesus Hates Everybody!
What Would Jesus Do? For A Klondike Bar.
You know how many times Jesus talked about gays in the bible? Zero. That's right zero. He preached about a lot of things, but not a word about Gays. So any professed "Christian" who wants to use the bible to rally against Gays should go back and read their bible to discover what Christ actually thought was important.
Truth – "You know how many times Jesus talked about gays in the bible? Zero." Do not fool yourself with this logic. Jesus is the Word. He is the Son of God. Everything that is written in the Bible are the words spoken and inspired by him – including anything and everything said about sin, every sin.
I found 20 more versus but your point makes no sense:
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. - Lev.20:13
@bill. If you are right, then Jesus wants people to kill their family if they serve other gods. That just doesn't seem very peaceful and loving does it ?
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
Bill, you should capitalize the word "Him." Do you think it is a sin since you didn't do that? I wonder if you will be forgiven.
Not me – "Bill, you should capitalize the word "Him." Do you think it is a sin since you didn't do that? I wonder if you will be forgiven."
LOL. I noticed that after posting. I am sure that the Lord will forgive me. Oh wait, I don't particularly recall the Bible verse that covers capitalization. Perhaps you can refresh me on that? There is, however, an eternal punishment for unbelief.
Bill P: Wow, slightly brainwashed??? You are far too uneducated to be using a computer little one, go back to your sandbox or learn something about your buybull. There is no evidence to back your god but there is evidence to back the fact that the buybull was written by men, inspired by men. Imaginary friends are only heard by children and schizophrenics...which of these do you fall under? Come back to us when you can provide solid proof of your god.
I found out what is important to christians.
They ignore everything else in leviticus, but this one, they shout from the rooftops.
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. – Lev.20:13
It is not enough for the Baptists to say he is not a Baptist. Every truly Christian minister in the country needs to take a stand in his or her own church and state that this man is not a Christian, and what he says is blasphemy. If the true Christians do not declare anathema on the idiots like this guy they are supporting him by their silence.
It is not blown out of proportion. Just like anti-bullying campaigns, the good people of the nation need to take a stand and scream at this type of bigot to stop his bullying. They need to picket his church in a lawful manner and the locals need to shun and boycott his parishioners until they leave the church and stop supporting this nutcase with their tax exempt donations. Let them know that they are not true believers in Christ if they belief this tripe and that they are not welcome in society so long as they support it.
History – "Every truly Christian minister in the country needs to take a stand in his or her own church and state that this man is not a Christian, and what he says is blasphemy." That is totally incorrect. It may be correct to rebuke the man for approaching this subject of this particular sinfulness without love, but neither you nor I nor anyone can say that the pastor is NOT a Christian. He may be wrong, but you absolutely cannot judge his salvation. And you have oversubscribed the meaning of the word "blasphemy".
***** He may be wrong, but you absolutely cannot judge his salvation.
Yes i can, i DONT practice your religion.
Billp, ever heard of excommunication?
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.