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Can 'true Catholics' support same-sex marriage?
Ex-priest Jim Smith, opponent of Minnesota's ballot to ban same-sex marriages, says these are difficult days to be Catholic.
June 20th, 2012
09:35 AM ET

Can 'true Catholics' support same-sex marriage?

By Chris Welch, CNN

Minneapolis (CNN) - Jim Smith is a former Roman Catholic priest who left his post with the church 10 years ago. He's an ex-priest for several reasons, he says, but one of his main concerns was the church's stance against same-sex marriage and other LGBT issues.

But Smith remains a Catholic - though he says being a Catholic who actively campaigns for legalized same-sex marriages can be difficult these days.

"I'd much rather this wasn't happening," Smith says of the division that the issue has created among Minnesota  Catholics. "But it does provide some real opportunities because it challenges us to talk to each other, Catholics talking to other Catholics."

Minnesota has become the newest epicenter in the same-sex marriage fight. This November, voters will decide whether they want an amendment added to the state's constitution that would ban marriage between members of the same sex.

Smith will be voting "no." And he has helped spearhead efforts in the state to persuade other Catholics to do the same.

A group he helped form,  Catholics for Marriage Equality-Minnesota, aims "to encourage Catholics to consider the profound sacredness of same-gender relationships and to defeat this marriage amendment," Smith says.

Vatican edicts against same-sex marriage often give Catholic same-sex marriage supporters the impression they're in the minority.

Related story: Same-sex marriage by the numbers 

But a recent poll by the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI) suggests 59% of American Catholics support rights allowing gay and lesbian couples to legally marry. One reason behind that statistic - says PRRI CEO Robert P. Jones - is because U.S. Catholics "overwhelmingly reject the idea that sexual orientation can be changed." A PRRI poll bears that out – with 69% of Catholics nationwide saying a person's sexual orientation cannot be changed.

In the Midwest alone, Catholics are evenly divided on the issue of same-sex marriage -– with 46% in favor, 47% against.

Opinion: GOP support for same-sex marriage growing

Related story: Both sides re-energized for upcoming same-sex marriage fight

Like Jim Smith, Michelle LaFrance is a Catholic who has also taken the bold step against the church in support of marriage equality.

"I remember thinking 'wow, maybe I shouldn't [remain a Catholic],' " LaFrance said. Ultimately they've remained with the Catholic faith, citing its many positive aspects including going to church. It's an important weekly ritual for LaFrance, her husband and their three kids.

"The Catholic Church, despite the media [attention] it typically gets, does a lot of great things, a lot of great social justice," LaFrance said. She noted the church "feeds the poor, houses the homeless, takes care of the abused."

The LaFrance family belongs to the Church of St. Margaret Mary in the Minneapolis suburb of Golden Valley, a congregation which LaFrance describes as fairly progressive. She says the majority of her fellow parishioners agree with her stance on same-sex marriage.

But when LaFrance hears the archdiocese telling people how they should think about it, she can't help but sometimes feel like less of a Catholic.

"I don't think anybody - whatever their religious denomination - whole-heartedly follows every single rule down to the letter."

Related story: U.S. history of same-sex marriage

On the other side of the debate stands Dave Deavel.

Although he agrees with LaFrance to an extent, he says he believes there are certain pillars of the Catholic faith that people should follow. One of those is the church stance that marriage should remain between one man and one woman.

"The whole point of what the church teaches is to form people's consciences," Deavel says.

For Deavel, his wife and their five children, attending church is so important they strive to go multiple times a week.

He's active with Minnesota for Marriage, which supports of the same-sex-marriage ban, and has written various blog posts on the topic for the Minnesota Catholic Conference.

Asked whether he believes a person can be "less of a Catholic" for disagreeing with the church, Deavel says the Vatican "doesn't really have a certain category for 'less of a Catholic.' "

"But they certainly don't represent what the church teaches," he said. "Is it a spiritual problem? I think yes."

Opinion: The secret gay agenda

In a written statement the MCC said groups such as Catholics for Marriage Equality "do not have any right to call their organizations 'Catholic.'"

In the past, the conference has issued statements accusing Catholics for Marriage Equality of trying "to confuse Catholics and the public about authentic church teaching" on marriage.

"Catholics for Marriage Equality MN attempts to convince Catholics that they can be in good standing with the church and oppose church teaching about human sexuality and marriage, which centers on the complementarity of the sexes and the mutual self-gift of loving spouses in marital union," said an MCC statement.

The Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis declined CNN's request for an interview, but it agreed with sentiments expressed by the Minnesota Catholic Conference.

Does church doctrine make it impossible for same-sex marriage supporters to be true Catholics?

"There is no judgment intended about an individual's 'Catholicity' or 'Catholic-ness,' " says MCC spokeswoman Jessica Zittlow.

Minnesota's November ballot proposal to ban same-sex marriage isn't an amendment against LGBT individuals, say the MCC and the St. Paul and Minneapolis Archdiocese. Instead, they say it should strictly be viewed as an amendment supporting traditional marriage.

For ex-priest Jim Smith, grappling with the issue has been difficult - a personal struggle that extends to the heart of his faith.

The inner conflict between what Smith believes is right and his love for the church has pushed him to consider leaving the Catholic religion altogether.

In the end, Smith vows he will stay. "It's in my bones."

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: 2012 Election • Catholic Church • Christianity • Faith • Minnesota • Politics • Polls • Same-sex marriage

soundoff (2,849 Responses)
  1. One one

    Do Catholics believe atheists should be denied civil rights ?

    June 20, 2012 at 5:56 pm |
    • Chris

      Are you serious?

      June 20, 2012 at 5:57 pm |
    • Julie

      Most of the more conservative religions believe Atheist should be hunted down and killed. Civil rights? You must be kidding.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:14 pm |
    • sam

      George Bush Sr once said athiests should not be considered American citizens. There's a lot of that sentiment going around, in many religions.

      June 20, 2012 at 7:20 pm |
  2. Dave

    Uh......No

    June 20, 2012 at 5:55 pm |
  3. IAmJesus

    @HeavenSent: Jesus is god. lol. Sooooo.... a guy one day spoke to himself and said, jesus, i mean self, I want you to go on a suicide mission to earth but dont worry they cant kill you because you are really me. But its gonna hurt you for 3 days, I mean me... shi* now even I am confused. I mean you. To save those people and remind them about me, no you, because although I can create an entire universe I need praise for my works... Yes I am a narcissist/gregarious ... yes god, you, no me have problems too. What you think im doing this out of the goodness of my heart?

    June 20, 2012 at 5:52 pm |
    • Jessie

      Would anyone who really believes in God have a child knowing that life is a test and if you fail it you will burn in Hell forever? No. That tells me that no one with a child really truly believes.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:56 pm |
    • Chris

      HIgh school argument.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:59 pm |
    • One one

      @jessy. I figure the conversation might go like this:

      Child: daddy, does god send people to hell?
      Father: Yes sweet heart.
      Child: Why daddy?
      Father: because they don't believe in him
      Child: But daddy, I don't believe in god
      Father: we'll, you are going to burn in hell sweet heart.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:05 pm |
    • it is

      A Test, yes, but not how you are presenting it. its more along the lines of what happens when someone falls off a horse. whether the decide to get back on or not, either way, their choice in this "test" forms their character. Aft a lifetime of these "tests" a person has either formed themselves to accept a selfless relationship with truth in fruitful love, or not. God doesn't "send" anyone anywhere. He does/has done everything Necessary to assist us in seeing the issue, as well as to garner the strength from him to tackle it. If we chose. Before anyone continues to spew their sorry notions of what they think Catholics believe, please refran and give it a genuine study first. Many, just like you have done exactly that, and become great saints.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:09 pm |
    • One one

      Atheists don't tell children that god sends them to h e l l to be tortured forever for not believing as they do.

      2 Thessalonians, 8-9:"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

      June 20, 2012 at 6:17 pm |
    • nottolate

      @One one

      You actually got to hell because you are rebels and career criminals. You commit tens of thousands of crimes over your lifetime each and every one a capital offense. You failed to live up to God's perfect standard of righteousness. That is the proper perspective. Its rather shocking that y'all don't know these things.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:17 pm |
    • sam

      @notto – sounds great. Very pleasant way to live.

      June 20, 2012 at 7:21 pm |
  4. Y'all disgusting

    Oh geez, here we go with another f4g story. Let's all talk about the f4gs! If it's ok for f4gs to get married then it's ok for pedo's to marry children.

    June 20, 2012 at 5:52 pm |
    • Ron Moore

      Says the man sitting in his trailer with his wife beater on wondering why dinner isn't on the table at 5:15

      June 20, 2012 at 5:57 pm |
    • Butch

      You left your underwear in my hotel room last night.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:57 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Let's all talk about the f4gs! If it's ok for f4gs to get married then it's ok for pedo's to marry children."

      Only prejudice bigots use this logic. Children can't consent and its RAPE! Duh! Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      June 20, 2012 at 6:39 pm |
  5. One one

    Wow ! Only 40% of Catholics believe in denying some people their civil rights. They are making progress.

    June 20, 2012 at 5:52 pm |
    • Dave

      H0m0s3xual behavior has nothing at all to do with civil rights. It has only to do with perversion, mental illness, and socially unacceptable acting out. Take responsibility for your deviancy and apologize to humanity.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:57 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "H0m0s3xual behavior has nothing at all to do with civil rights. It has only to do with perversion, mental illness, and socially unacceptable acting out."

      You're lying and your prejudice isn't based on real facts. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      June 20, 2012 at 5:59 pm |
    • Edith

      Gay is not a hair color or a nose piercing or bell bottomed pants or purple nail polish. It is not a fad for the day. It is real and most people don't care to adopt reality, especially those caught up in the supernatural and the metaphysical.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:59 pm |
    • Diane

      To One One...Catholic's do not believe in denying 40 percent of people their rights. You have a right to marry..just not in our church. Is it any more incorrect I be forced to pay for abortions I am against??...we love EVERYONE but it does not mean that we are willing to go against our beliefs. We are not here to judge you that is between you and who you believe in as your God. We follow what we believe to be God's law..not mans.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:08 pm |
    • nottolate

      @Madtown,

      "They haven't found a hetero gene yet either"

      Um...do we need one? Its natural and our biology testifies of that....duh! Ain't nothing complex about that. According to you its so complex that it can't even be substantiated...LOL!

      June 20, 2012 at 6:23 pm |
    • Pepsi

      At least there's one in here that make sense, you got my vote Dave. Well said.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:46 pm |
    • Madtown

      nottolate
      Um...do we need one?
      ---
      Are you seriously that dense? You're the empty-head crying about the lack of a "gay gene". Orientation is determined by a number of BIOLOGICAL factors. We don't need a hetero gene to prove people hetero, but we need a gay gene to prove them gay? How long has it been since your lobotomy? How are you recovering?

      June 20, 2012 at 9:49 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      Hey Dave, maybe you should apologize to humanity for your bigotry, your immorality, and your complete lack of intelligence. If you want a theocracy, then go somewhere else.

      June 20, 2012 at 9:52 pm |
  6. nottolate

    I remember back in the mid 90s how they swore there was a gay gene. Turns out it was a complete fabrication as many of us already knew. Now they wanna claim orientation which is nothing more than doing whatever you feel like.

    June 20, 2012 at 5:51 pm |
    • Madtown

      And, they still don't know. But, you know, huh? You're just so far ahead of science in general. Impressive. They haven't found a hetero gene yet either, by the way. They speculate its because it's more complex that finding 1 gene. Complex, meaning it will always be miles over the head of people like you.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:53 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      I don't understand, I thought you were all about "show me the proof". It appears you are willing to accept somethings on faith as long as they coincide with your "natural" desires.

      June 21, 2012 at 2:26 pm |
    • Erik

      "I remember back in the mid 90s how they swore there was a gay gene. Turns out it was a complete fabrication as many of us already knew."

      All major medical professional organizations concur that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed, from gay to straight or otherwise. The American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and European Psychological, Psychiatric, and Medical Associations all agree with this, as does the World Health Organization and the medical organizations of Japan, China, and most recently, Thailand. Furthermore, attempts to change one's sexual orientation can be psychologically damaging, and cause great inner turmoil and depression, especially for Christian gays and lesbians.

      The scientific evidence of the innateness of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism is overwhelming, and more peer-reviewed studies which bolster this fact are being added all the time. Science has long regarded sexual orientation – and that's all sexual orientations, including heterosexuality – as a phenotype. Simply put, a phenotype is an observable set of properties that varies among individuals and is deeply rooted in biology. For the scientific community, the role of genetics in sexuality is about as "disputable" as the role of evolution in biology.

      On the second point, that there is no conclusion that there is a "gay gene," they are right. No so-called gay gene has been found, and it's highly unlikely that one ever will. This is where conservative Christians and Muslims quickly say "See, I told you so! There's no gay gene, so being gay is a choice!"

      The fact that a so-called "gay gene" has not been discovered does not mean that homosexuality is not genetic in its causation. This is understandably something that can seem a bit strange to those who have not been educated in fields of science and advanced biology, and it is also why people who are not scientists ought not try to explain the processes in simple black-and-white terms. There is no gay gene, but there is also no "height gene" or "skin tone gene" or "left-handed gene." These, like sexuality, have a heritable aspect, but no one dominant gene is responsible for them.

      Many genes, working in sync, contribute to the phenotype and therefore do have a role in sexual orientation. In many animal model systems, for example, the precise genes involved in sexual partner selection have been identified, and their neuro-biochemical pathways have been worked out in great detail. A great number of these mechanisms have been preserved evolutionarily in humans, just as they are for every other behavioral trait we know (including heterosexuality).

      There are many biologic traits which are not specifically genetic but are biologic nonetheless. These traits are rooted in hormonal influences, contributed especially during the early stages of fetal development. This too is indisputable and based on extensive peer-reviewed research the world over. Such prenatal hormonal influences are not genetic per se, but are inborn, natural, and biologic nevertheless.

      June 21, 2012 at 2:29 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Erik, Do you mean like a predisposition to believe in God?

      June 21, 2012 at 4:05 pm |
  7. If horses had Gods .. their Gods would be horses

    Don't let any organization tell you how you "should" think.

    June 20, 2012 at 5:48 pm |
  8. Ron Moore

    Religion is for those without enough conviction to determine what is right and wrong on their own. Spineless person. Spineless article.

    June 20, 2012 at 5:47 pm |
    • it is

      Shollow nomnalist

      June 20, 2012 at 6:13 pm |
    • B

      I'm always amazed by people like you who think they are so much smarter and better than everyone else that they have formed their opinions on matters of right and wrong, or anything for that matter, without any outside influence. What does it matter to you where a person looks to form their moral compass as long as it leads them to being a "good person?" The events, ideas, and people who have helped influence your idea of right and wrong are no different than a religious person, such as myself, they just come from a different source. On top of that, your insulting and denigrating remarks show the same hateful character in yourself as you would accuse those who choose to be against gay marriage of having.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:47 pm |
  9. Erik

    "I can't believe all the atheist have no proof of a gay gene but still believe that it is a genetic trait"

    All major medical professional organizations concur that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed, from gay to straight or otherwise. The American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and European Psychological, Psychiatric, and Medical Associations all agree with this, as does the World Health Organization and the medical organizations of Japan, China, and most recently, Thailand. Furthermore, attempts to change one's sexual orientation can be psychologically damaging, and cause great inner turmoil and depression, especially for Christian gays and lesbians.

    The scientific evidence of the innateness of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism is overwhelming, and more peer-reviewed studies which bolster this fact are being added all the time. Science has long regarded sexual orientation – and that's all sexual orientations, including heterosexuality – as a phenotype. Simply put, a phenotype is an observable set of properties that varies among individuals and is deeply rooted in biology. For the scientific community, the role of genetics in sexuality is about as "disputable" as the role of evolution in biology.

    On the second point, that there is no conclusion that there is a "gay gene," they are right. No so-called gay gene has been found, and it's highly unlikely that one ever will. This is where conservative Christians and Muslims quickly say "See, I told you so! There's no gay gene, so being gay is a choice!"

    The fact that a so-called "gay gene" has not been discovered does not mean that homosexuality is not genetic in its causation. This is understandably something that can seem a bit strange to those who have not been educated in fields of science and advanced biology, and it is also why people who are not scientists ought not try to explain the processes in simple black-and-white terms. There is no gay gene, but there is also no "height gene" or "skin tone gene" or "left-handed gene." These, like sexuality, have a heritable aspect, but no one dominant gene is responsible for them.

    Many genes, working in sync, contribute to the phenotype and therefore do have a role in sexual orientation. In many animal model systems, for example, the precise genes involved in sexual partner selection have been identified, and their neuro-biochemical pathways have been worked out in great detail. A great number of these mechanisms have been preserved evolutionarily in humans, just as they are for every other behavioral trait we know (including heterosexuality).

    There are many biologic traits which are not specifically genetic but are biologic nonetheless. These traits are rooted in hormonal influences, contributed especially during the early stages of fetal development. This too is indisputable and based on extensive peer-reviewed research the world over. Such prenatal hormonal influences are not genetic per se, but are inborn, natural, and biologic nevertheless.

    June 20, 2012 at 5:47 pm |
    • MOJO

      This is the EXACT SAME ARGUMENT that the pedophiles make.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:49 pm |
    • ac130u

      Wow you know a lot about this stuff.
      This must be your thing?

      June 20, 2012 at 5:50 pm |
    • Pepsi

      It's not a physical related thing, it's a psychological defect.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:50 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Hmm. So you read a lot about pedophiles, do you?

      June 20, 2012 at 5:50 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "It's not a physical related thing, it's a psychological defect."

      Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      June 20, 2012 at 5:52 pm |
    • Ted

      All of that science to prove what millions of gay people have been saying since day one, that "I was born gay and I have been gay as far back as I can remember".

      June 20, 2012 at 5:52 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "This is the EXACT SAME ARGUMENT that the pedophiles make."

      No it's not cite your source. What an idiot.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:52 pm |
    • Pepsi

      YeahRight those conclusions that being gay is not a psychological disorder are probably backed up by a large gay influence in the scientists community. When you seen people who are retarded have you noticed they all look alike and react in the same manners, have you ever noticed that in every group of mentally hill patient they have the same facial features and manners. How can't you see that when you observe gay people you don't notice the same physical manners and same psychological and personality traits .They all talk the same way with those same body movements and facial features. Like i said it's a psychological defect period.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:02 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      "every group of mentally hill patient they have the same facial features and manners"

      Yes, I've been observing you for some time now, Poopsikins. You are quite right; lots of the mentally ill behave exactly as you do, and look quite like you as well.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:06 pm |
    • YeahRight

      “those conclusions that being gay is not a psychological disorder are probably backed up by a large gay influence in the scientists community. “ -LIE

      “When you seen people who are retarded have you noticed they all look alike and react in the same manners, have you ever noticed that in every group of mentally hill patient they have the same facial features and manners. “-LIE

      “How can't you see that when you observe gay people you don't notice the same physical manners and same psychological and personality traits . -LIE

      “They all talk the same way with those same body movements and facial features. -LIE</b

      Like i said it's a psychological defect period.” he American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      June 20, 2012 at 6:07 pm |
    • Pepsi

      I never thought in my entire life that i would have a gay fan someday, so Tom would like to be the president of my new fan club?

      June 20, 2012 at 6:08 pm |
    • Pepsi

      YeahRight on which planet are you from? Just type retarded people in Google and check those images of this can help you. If you can't see they all look alike then you're also blind. Stop denying the facts.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:11 pm |
    • Diane

      Erick...why don't you site your source since you are copying all this...Let me site mine..I am a doctor..how much medical school did you say you attended????

      June 20, 2012 at 6:14 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "YeahRight on which planet are you from? Just type retarded people in Google and check those images of this can help you. If you can't see they all look alike then you're also blind. Stop denying the facts."

      Wow you really should seek professional help for your unfounded prejudice and bigotry. It's people like you that are a menace to our society by fueling unfounded hatred and bigotry toward the gay community. It's also what is causing the senseless bullying in our schools. Grow up.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:15 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Erick...why don't you site your source since you are copying all this"

      In other words, I have nothing to refute it so I'll make this crap up.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:16 pm |
    • Pepsi

      Yeahright, i won't argue with you any longer since you proved that you are one blind sheep, you're just one of those who are afraid of the truth when you have it right in front of you, which is very typical of gay people. Every single facts that you have right in front of your eyes and that are not pleasing you just makes you calling others bigots or any other names that you think of. you said it's people like me who are dangerous to society and contributes to school bullying.

      Well let me tell you it's gay people like you who have created this fake world we live in, you have brainwashed kids in schools that gay is a normal thing, you also have invaded every governments departments, polices, justice system, hospitals and you name it. you have created a world where you can't have a free speech anymore, a world where steams build up inside people and then when these people blow up they kill and do horrible things to others because they were not allowed to let the steam out when it was time to do so. The fake world you've created is mining this world little by little until it will be completely ruined. Call me a dreamer or anything you want, but at the end i will be the one who knew what and why we ended up this way. And it was because of you gay people.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:40 pm |
    • Diane I'm a medical doctor

      ...yet I don't know the difference between "cite" and "site". And "sight"? Has me completely confused. I graduated at the bottom of my (high school) class...

      in lower Podunk, Arkansas

      June 20, 2012 at 6:44 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Poopsi says: "Call me a dreamer..."

      Um, no. A delusional moron, perhaps. Or a nut-job zealot, maybe. Dreamer? Hardly. You're not that bright. Aspidistras are smarter. Even when they're dead.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:46 pm |
    • YeahRight

      “Yeahright, i won't argue with you any longer since you proved that you are one blind sheep, you're just one of those who are afraid of the truth when you have it right in front of you, which is very typical of gay people. “ -LIE – and I am not gay

      “Every single facts that you have right in front of your eyes and that are not pleasing you just makes you calling others bigots or any other names that you think of. you said it's people like me who are dangerous to society and contributes to school bullying.” In other words you have not REAL facts to back up your bogus claims about gays. Bigot = a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

      “Well let me tell you it's gay people like you who have created this fake world we live in, you have brainwashed kids in schools that gay is a normal thing, you also have invaded every governments departments, polices, justice system, hospitals and you name it.”-LIE – and I am not gay. It’s hundreds of thousands of experts that have proven gay is normal.

      “ The fake world you've created is mining this world little by little until it will be completely ruined.” .”-LIE – we’ve actually have become more moral by achieving civil rights for both African Americans and women, we are moving into becoming a better society based on equality.

      “Call me a dreamer or anything you want, but at the end i will be the one who knew what and why we ended up this way. And it was because of you gay people.” -LIE not based on any valid facts, continuing to prove your prejudice and bigotry is unfounded toward the gay community and why you are a menace to our society.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:49 pm |
    • Pepsi

      Like i said i won't argue with you anymore, but your last post you sad i'm not that bright, well you're not either, because in many post you've made you have many times copied and pasted and then called it a Lie, everything seems to be a Lie to you. you're obviously a very narrow minded person, not too bright in my book. One last question that really tickles me, you said you're not gay, have you found out sometime in the past that someone close to you was gay at one time and you really got hurt and then you forced yourself into believing it's ok being gay just to accept it even if you never really did?

      June 20, 2012 at 6:59 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      Why would someone be hurt when a friend comes out to them as gay?

      June 20, 2012 at 7:00 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      One wouldn't. Unless the "one" you're talking about is a complete dick.

      June 20, 2012 at 7:03 pm |
    • Pepsi

      Well ask him, you will find out.

      June 20, 2012 at 7:03 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Pepsi

      Wild assertions of a persons past with absolutely no idea of who the person really is shows your desperation.

      June 20, 2012 at 7:05 pm |
    • sam

      Pepsi, I thought we had something. Why are you hitting on Tom now?

      June 20, 2012 at 7:23 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "One last question that really tickles me, you said you're not gay, have you found out sometime in the past that someone close to you was gay at one time and you really got hurt and then you forced yourself into believing it's ok being gay just to accept it even if you never really did?"

      LMAO – Wow the stupidity and lies that people come up with is amazing you'll say anything to try and justify your unfounded prejudice against the gay community.

      June 21, 2012 at 2:31 pm |
  10. MOJO

    Why shouldn't the Catholics support gay marriage? They support the biggest pedophile ring on earth – so why not gay marriage?

    June 20, 2012 at 5:45 pm |
    • Pepsi

      Because gays don't believe in God.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:47 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      So you're friendly with a lot of gays, are you, Poopsi?

      June 20, 2012 at 5:49 pm |
    • Pepsi

      Tom you and Sam seems to be turned on by me, leave me alone i'm not gay and never will be, it's too disgusting.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:52 pm |
    • JT1962

      @Pepsi, whoever told you gays don't believe in God lied to you. There are gays who believe in God, in Allah, in Jehovah..In just about any God there is out there because there are gays in every faith known to man.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:53 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oh, wait, Poopsi...did you think I was interested in you...'that way'? Oh, honey, I'm so sorry to disappoint you, but I'm straight and married. I...I'm.. uh...gosh, this is awkward. You're just not my, uh....type.

      I only go for those who have an IQ over 100.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:00 pm |
    • Pepsi

      Tom if you are married then your wife should keep an eye on you because i'm sure you swing both ways.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:13 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Um, dummy. I'm a woman. I'm married to a man. Have been for over 30 years. Neither one of us "swings" the other way.

      No desire to do so, as we're straight. Sad for you, though. Apparently, you can't say the same for your own marriage, if you even have one.

      June 20, 2012 at 7:05 pm |
    • sam

      Pepsi...you cheating bitch.

      June 20, 2012 at 7:24 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "Because gays don't believe in God."

      That's why there are thousands of gay churches and gay clergy. LMAO!

      June 21, 2012 at 2:48 pm |
  11. Madtown

    Bill Deacon
    I can't believe all the atheist have no proof of a gay gene but still believe that it is a genetic trait
    ------
    Well, genetics is a very complicated subject. That's why it's typically completely lost on folks such as yourself.

    June 20, 2012 at 5:44 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      And yet you are willing to reject theology because "there is no proof." I would venture that theology is several order more complex than biology since it reaches into every scientific discipline. Perhaps it is you who suffer from a lack of comprehension

      June 21, 2012 at 2:44 pm |
  12. Can True Catholics Be Rational?

    What does the Tooth Fairy have to say about this? Let us consult with all imaginary friends before making a decision.

    June 20, 2012 at 5:44 pm |
    • Chris

      Georges Lemaitre (came up with the "big bang" theory) is a Catholic, so is the inventor of Penicillin, Alexander Fleming, there are many, many more..but, according to you, they are to stupid to be rational??

      June 20, 2012 at 5:56 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Johannes Gutenburg – Catholic. (He's why you can read)

      June 21, 2012 at 2:46 pm |
  13. Sam

    I'm gay and me and Tom Tom are lovers.

    June 20, 2012 at 5:43 pm |
  14. Rob

    This is not a Catholic / non Catholic issue. Rather it is an issue of following biblical truths or not. I am not so sure that one can call themselve Catholic/Protestant or any other Christ based faith and not follow His or His diciples teaching on this issue. If one wants to leave the Catholic faith over this issue then I would also assume that they want to leave behind their Christian faith as well. Christianity based on fact that the Bible is God's word to us is not liek a smorgasbord where we pick and choose what we want. You are either all in or all out.

    June 20, 2012 at 5:43 pm |
    • derp

      "God's word to us is not liek a smorgasbord where we pick and choose what we want"

      Then why do 99.9% of ALL christians pick and choose. I have never, ever met a christian who follows the bible 100%.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:55 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Rob, if you're Catholic, have you ever used birth control?

      June 20, 2012 at 5:56 pm |
    • Ryan

      You don't pick and choose? So I guess you still support slavery, polygamy, xenophobia, and women being treated as property.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:55 pm |
  15. ajoseph1234

    To ask Christians to condone gay marriage is like asking african americans to condone slavery. Do you not know that you become a slave to that which you allow to master you. Those who walk in sin are slaves to sin.

    June 20, 2012 at 5:43 pm |
    • Ronin

      Oh shut up

      June 20, 2012 at 5:48 pm |
    • QS

      OooOooOoo....siiiiiin.....quick, everybody kneel!

      June 20, 2012 at 5:57 pm |
    • it is

      BTW, sin is the injury or death of a person's relationship to loving-truth, either between or amng peraons, or between the person and loving-truth itself, ie God. I can't think of any other Thing grander, undefinable and more worthy of the name God than this. Plenty of sin in these comments.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:18 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Ronin LOL typical rational scientific humanist response.

      June 21, 2012 at 2:48 pm |
  16. If horses had Gods .. their Gods would be horses

    So the question really is ... can true Catholics (or any religious follower) have an opinion of their own?

    June 20, 2012 at 5:40 pm |
    • Izoto

      Plenty of them do, lose the ignorance - it's unbecoming of anyone.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:42 pm |
    • If horses had Gods .. their Gods would be horses

      Izoto .. the question is in the context of the article. Lose the ignorance and understand what you're commenting to.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:45 pm |
    • QS

      That same question applies to any other religion, it' not just exclusive to Catholicism.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:55 pm |
    • it is

      No person created loving-truth (God). They did, however, devise many and various ways of describing it. Pondering and clarifying amongst themselves for hundreds and hundreds of years to properly descern and describe it. Why not check out how they've related it, in prose and poetry, etcetera. The book is known as the Bible. Literal interpreters and facile joke makers will not be capable of understanding it.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:28 pm |
  17. RickBangkok

    I think we just need to remember that as people who live in a "free" country or whether we do not, we have to stop asking organizations such as governments and churches for "permission" to be who we are.

    The Pope and his sort have waged a war against Gays and other peoples for at least 1600 years. They should be ashamed for thinking they own the only rulebook for living.

    The more they carry on, the more I study. I you are Catholic or liking them for any reason as if they are better than any other group, just pick up a book about the Inquisition and know that it still goes on. And the current Pope was the head of the modern Inquisition. They struggle each year to decrease the numbers of victims of their tortures and killings under "auto de fe". Shameful.

    I see no reason to work with them or for them at all. Same goes for most other churches including the Methodists, Baptists, Mormons and other cults. And while we are at it, make them all pay TAXES!

    June 20, 2012 at 5:39 pm |
    • If horses had Gods .. their Gods would be horses

      Rick .. your 1st sentence alone made an excellent point!!

      June 20, 2012 at 5:43 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      So everyone should be free to be who they except for Catholics?

      June 21, 2012 at 2:49 pm |
  18. ladymarchhare

    Can a Catholic support birth control, divorce or the death penalty? All of those are also against canon as well in the church, yet many...most...US Catholics have violated church teaching in regards to one or all of those. It seems that the answer is clear. A US Catholic will still consider themselves a "true" catholic if they support whatever they find convenient to support.

    June 20, 2012 at 5:39 pm |
    • Tee

      True

      June 20, 2012 at 5:47 pm |
  19. alshabbah

    Hello. This is my stand on the issue, in a free country each person can have their own opinion. Every thing that man invents comes with a manual on how to use. In the same manner God created man and women with differing function but complimenting each other. His manual is The Bible and it teaches that marriage is supposed to be between a man and a women. Not between two men or two women. Now in this age people want to add their own use of marriage, between two men or between two women which in time will become inclusive of human and animal etc. This is real abomination and God will not keep quite. We all should become ready for his wrath since we have departed from His ways.

    June 20, 2012 at 5:38 pm |
    • Madtown

      alshabbah
      His manual is The Bible
      ----–
      You don't speak for God, don't know what God thinks, and God did not write the bible.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:42 pm |
    • John

      "Every thing that man invents comes with a manual on how to use. In the same manner God created man and women with differing function but complimenting each other. His manual is The Bible and it teaches that marriage is supposed to be between a man and a women. Not between two men or two women."

      Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.

      Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.

      There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.

      Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.

      1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.

      Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?

      Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).

      That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:48 pm |
    • QS

      I can only show pity to people who think this way.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:53 pm |
    • Tee

      Madtime-Yes, man wrote the bible but it was under God's direction. If you read the bible & did a little more research you'd discover that as well. Those men had to be some magnificient individual if they created a bible. It's the same approach as when you write a book & you want it to be published, does it mean you're not the author because someone wrote it for you although it was your words? It's the same with God. If you read the bible you'd understand that it's well beyond human-beings way of thinking. God had man write that the earth was hanging from a sphere while scientist theorized that the earth was flat only to discover in the 1900's that it is actually round as the word of God stated. There was technology over 2000 years ago to uncover this nor did any human-being travel all around the earth ove 2000 years ago to discover that it was round. One solution is God (as it is written).

      June 20, 2012 at 5:53 pm |
    • Madtown

      Tee
      Madtime-Yes, man wrote the bible but it was under God's direction.
      ----
      How do you know? Oh......the authors told you? Very convincing. Also, I've read the bible, and still do.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:57 pm |
    • rftallent

      I have never seen it posted more accurately than in John's post. Thank you for naming and clarifying the scripture according to Peter. Thank you very much.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:20 pm |
    • rftallent

      Excuse me. I mean to say Paul, not Peter.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:22 pm |
    • Tee

      @ Mad (lol). You should read it more but it's clearly written in the bible if you truly read it. God is the author of the bible. Also, you should do so research on how scientists have verified bibical accuracy. So these men were instructed by God & it's all for our benefit.

      The Spirit of Jehovah spake by me, And his word was upon my tongue” (2 Sam. 23:2).

      Jehovah informed Jeremiah that the words of his mouth had been placed there by the Lord himself. “Then Jehovah put forth his hand, and touched my mouth; and Jehovah said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.” (Jer. 1:9).

      just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15b-16

      June 20, 2012 at 6:40 pm |
    • Madtown

      Tee
      God is the author of the bible.
      ---
      You must not be able to tie your shoes by yourself, with such an alarmingly compromised intellect.

      June 20, 2012 at 9:52 pm |
  20. Scholar

    Marriage exists without any religious rite required by law. Marriage cannot exist without a civil license for both the couple of people to marry as well as for that person who takes the oaths of marriage.

    Those who make the argument that marriage exists only for procreation ignore those marriages where children are not possible or never intended.

    The marriage contract is the only single way in which a person may choose his or her next of kin in a way that cannot be contested by any government as demonstrated by the case of Terry Schiavo where the marriage contract held against even the combined power of the US Congress and the President.

    June 20, 2012 at 5:37 pm |
    • Steph Brusig

      Exactly! Very well put and I may borrow it for future use.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:40 pm |
    • QS

      sssh, all that logic and factual information might make the religious heads explode trying to fathom it all.

      June 20, 2012 at 5:52 pm |
    • rftallent

      Apparently you have never heard of common law marriage. There is no marriage contract, yet still the marriage is valid.

      June 20, 2012 at 6:25 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.