home
RSS
Can 'true Catholics' support same-sex marriage?
Ex-priest Jim Smith, opponent of Minnesota's ballot to ban same-sex marriages, says these are difficult days to be Catholic.
June 20th, 2012
09:35 AM ET

Can 'true Catholics' support same-sex marriage?

By Chris Welch, CNN

Minneapolis (CNN) - Jim Smith is a former Roman Catholic priest who left his post with the church 10 years ago. He's an ex-priest for several reasons, he says, but one of his main concerns was the church's stance against same-sex marriage and other LGBT issues.

But Smith remains a Catholic - though he says being a Catholic who actively campaigns for legalized same-sex marriages can be difficult these days.

"I'd much rather this wasn't happening," Smith says of the division that the issue has created among Minnesota  Catholics. "But it does provide some real opportunities because it challenges us to talk to each other, Catholics talking to other Catholics."

Minnesota has become the newest epicenter in the same-sex marriage fight. This November, voters will decide whether they want an amendment added to the state's constitution that would ban marriage between members of the same sex.

Smith will be voting "no." And he has helped spearhead efforts in the state to persuade other Catholics to do the same.

A group he helped form,  Catholics for Marriage Equality-Minnesota, aims "to encourage Catholics to consider the profound sacredness of same-gender relationships and to defeat this marriage amendment," Smith says.

Vatican edicts against same-sex marriage often give Catholic same-sex marriage supporters the impression they're in the minority.

Related story: Same-sex marriage by the numbers 

But a recent poll by the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI) suggests 59% of American Catholics support rights allowing gay and lesbian couples to legally marry. One reason behind that statistic - says PRRI CEO Robert P. Jones - is because U.S. Catholics "overwhelmingly reject the idea that sexual orientation can be changed." A PRRI poll bears that out – with 69% of Catholics nationwide saying a person's sexual orientation cannot be changed.

In the Midwest alone, Catholics are evenly divided on the issue of same-sex marriage -– with 46% in favor, 47% against.

Opinion: GOP support for same-sex marriage growing

Related story: Both sides re-energized for upcoming same-sex marriage fight

Like Jim Smith, Michelle LaFrance is a Catholic who has also taken the bold step against the church in support of marriage equality.

"I remember thinking 'wow, maybe I shouldn't [remain a Catholic],' " LaFrance said. Ultimately they've remained with the Catholic faith, citing its many positive aspects including going to church. It's an important weekly ritual for LaFrance, her husband and their three kids.

"The Catholic Church, despite the media [attention] it typically gets, does a lot of great things, a lot of great social justice," LaFrance said. She noted the church "feeds the poor, houses the homeless, takes care of the abused."

The LaFrance family belongs to the Church of St. Margaret Mary in the Minneapolis suburb of Golden Valley, a congregation which LaFrance describes as fairly progressive. She says the majority of her fellow parishioners agree with her stance on same-sex marriage.

But when LaFrance hears the archdiocese telling people how they should think about it, she can't help but sometimes feel like less of a Catholic.

"I don't think anybody - whatever their religious denomination - whole-heartedly follows every single rule down to the letter."

Related story: U.S. history of same-sex marriage

On the other side of the debate stands Dave Deavel.

Although he agrees with LaFrance to an extent, he says he believes there are certain pillars of the Catholic faith that people should follow. One of those is the church stance that marriage should remain between one man and one woman.

"The whole point of what the church teaches is to form people's consciences," Deavel says.

For Deavel, his wife and their five children, attending church is so important they strive to go multiple times a week.

He's active with Minnesota for Marriage, which supports of the same-sex-marriage ban, and has written various blog posts on the topic for the Minnesota Catholic Conference.

Asked whether he believes a person can be "less of a Catholic" for disagreeing with the church, Deavel says the Vatican "doesn't really have a certain category for 'less of a Catholic.' "

"But they certainly don't represent what the church teaches," he said. "Is it a spiritual problem? I think yes."

Opinion: The secret gay agenda

In a written statement the MCC said groups such as Catholics for Marriage Equality "do not have any right to call their organizations 'Catholic.'"

In the past, the conference has issued statements accusing Catholics for Marriage Equality of trying "to confuse Catholics and the public about authentic church teaching" on marriage.

"Catholics for Marriage Equality MN attempts to convince Catholics that they can be in good standing with the church and oppose church teaching about human sexuality and marriage, which centers on the complementarity of the sexes and the mutual self-gift of loving spouses in marital union," said an MCC statement.

The Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis declined CNN's request for an interview, but it agreed with sentiments expressed by the Minnesota Catholic Conference.

Does church doctrine make it impossible for same-sex marriage supporters to be true Catholics?

"There is no judgment intended about an individual's 'Catholicity' or 'Catholic-ness,' " says MCC spokeswoman Jessica Zittlow.

Minnesota's November ballot proposal to ban same-sex marriage isn't an amendment against LGBT individuals, say the MCC and the St. Paul and Minneapolis Archdiocese. Instead, they say it should strictly be viewed as an amendment supporting traditional marriage.

For ex-priest Jim Smith, grappling with the issue has been difficult - a personal struggle that extends to the heart of his faith.

The inner conflict between what Smith believes is right and his love for the church has pushed him to consider leaving the Catholic religion altogether.

In the end, Smith vows he will stay. "It's in my bones."

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: 2012 Election • Catholic Church • Christianity • Faith • Minnesota • Politics • Polls • Same-sex marriage

soundoff (2,849 Responses)
  1. Biblical

    http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=25-01-024-f#ixzz1iXEDxQfl

    the author has too many arguments to repeat inone small post. I'd focus on the 'orientation' question, i.e. what else is a valid orientation once you accept this kind of deviancy

    June 21, 2012 at 5:08 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Bibbster, why would anyone look to a faith-based organization for accurate reporting on anything but religion?

      Pick up a science journal, dope.

      June 21, 2012 at 5:12 pm |
    • Biblical

      I see a trend here. Instead of fighting the idea proposed somewhere, it's 'nut daily' or 'fruit daily' or 'religious magazine'. How about we look at the material and judge its merits, wherever it be from?

      Oh, then it would be difficult to make your point. My bad.

      June 21, 2012 at 5:16 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      It's not "difficult", ninny. It's a biased source. The very fact that you've labeled hom0s3xuality a deviancy is enough evidence to show that what you're posting is yet more dreck. If you can't find anything in a peer-reviewed journal or a widely-accepted source of information, Bibby, don't whine when you're written off as a dolt.

      June 21, 2012 at 5:29 pm |
    • Biblical

      Mr Tom,

      Im open minded to considering any evidence and arguments. you are not, you just want to stereotype and and attack me personally. Great debating skills I must say. Others, pls ignore mr tom and see the article.

      June 21, 2012 at 5:33 pm |
    • Dorothy

      Nope Bib, Mr Tom is correct. Once you post that something is a deviancy when all reputable medical and psychological organizations emphatically state that it is not, it pretty much makes you lack credibility. No matter how much one stomps their feet and shouts that the earth is the center of the universe and that the sun rotates around it, it does not make it so.....so too with your deviancy argument.

      June 21, 2012 at 5:37 pm |
  2. kindness

    This is my experience... Thank you.

    MY personal testimony.
    A thought to consider without an ego response

    Accept Jesus christ as your lord and saviour. You never know how soon is too late. Transcend the worldly illusion of enslavement.
    The world denounces truth....

    Accepting Jesus Christ (for me) resulted in something like seeng a new colour. You will see it .....but will not be able to clearly explain it to anyone else..... Its meant to be that way to transend any selfism within you.

    Also... much the world arranges "surrounding dark matter into something to be debated" in such a way that protects/inflates the ego.

    The key is be present and transcend our own desire to physically see evidence. We don't know anyways by defending our own perception of dark matter.

    Currently.... most of us are constructing our own path that suits our sin lifestyle. Were all sinners. Knowing that we are is often an issue. But both christians and non are sinners.

    We don't like to Let go and let god. We want control to some degree. This is what Jesus asks us to do. "Follow me".
    It's the hardest thing to do... but is done by letting the truth of scripture lead you (redemptive revelation)... as I said .

    Try reading corinthians and see if it makes sense to you. Try it without a pre conceived notion of it being a fairy tale.
    See the truth...
    do we do what it says in todays society... is it relevant... so many have not recently read and only hinge their philosophy on what they have heard from som other person...which may have been full of arogance pride or vanity..

    Look closely at the economy ponzi, look at how society idolizes Lust , greed , envy, sloth, pride of life, desire for knowledge, desire for power, desire for revencge,gluttony with food etc .

    Trancsend the temporal world.

    Just think if you can find any truth you can take with you ....in any of these things. When you die your riches go to someone who will spend away your life..... You will be forgotten.... history will repeat iteslf.... the greatest minds knowledge fade or are eventually plagerzed..... your good deeds will be forgotten and only give you a fleeting temporary reward . your learned teachings are forgotten or mutated..... your gold is transfered back to the rullers that rule you through deception. Your grave will grow over . This is truth .

    Trancsend your egoism and free yourself from this dominion of satan. Understand you are a sinner and part of the collective problem of this worldly matrix... Repent.... Repent means knowing (to change) The Holy spirit (within) will convict you beyond what you think you can do by yourself. Grace is given to those who renounce the world. That are" in" the world but not "of " the world.

    Evidence follows faith. Faith does not follow evidence..... Faith above reason in Jesus Christ.

    Faith comes by Reading or Hearing the word of god from the bible . Ask Jesus in faith for dicernment and start reading the new testament... You will be shocked when you lay down your preconceived notions and ....see and hear truth ... see how christ sets an example ... feel the truth....

    Read Ecclesiastes. Read corinthians.

    You cant trancend your own egoism by adapting a world philosophy to suit your needs. Seek the truth in Christ.

    Sell all your cleverness and purchase true bewilderment. You don't get what you want ....you get what you are in christ.

    I promise this has been the truth for me. In Jesus christ .

    Think of what you really have to lose. ...your ego?

    Break the Matrix of illusion that holds your senses captive.

    once you do . you too will have the wisdom of God that comes only through the Holy Spirit. Saved By grace through Faith. Just like seeing a new colour.... can't explain it to a transient caught in the matrix of worldly deception.
    You will also see how the world suppresses this information and distorts it

    You're all smart people . I tell the truth. Its hard to think out of the box when earthly thinking is the box.
    I'ts a personal free experience you can do it free anytime . Don't wait till you are about to die.. START PUTTING YOUR TREASURES WHERE THEY REALLY MATTER >
    Its awsome and It's just between you and Jesus

    my testimony

    Romans 10:9

    "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

    June 21, 2012 at 2:02 pm |
    • TROLL ALERT

      click the report abuse link to get rid of this TROLL and garbage so hopefully they'll start blocking them from posting .

      June 21, 2012 at 2:09 pm |
  3. Dorothy

    The answer to the question: Can true Catholics support gay marriage?....the answer is obvious......YES, of course they can. Indeed 59% do support it. I can already hear the boos and hisses from the 41% who do not support it. One cannot get too worried about that since it is the faithful who define who the church is. Granted, many define the church by its clergy and hierarchy (and the obvious 41% who follow them blindly). The reality is that it is the hierarchy who throughout history has been the church's greatest source of embarrassment (consider the current scandals, the inquisition, and the "holy wars" to name a few). It has traditionally taken the hierarchy about 400 years to catch up with what their faithful have figured out long ago (again, consider DaVinci, Galileo to name a few).

    June 21, 2012 at 11:41 am |
    • gerald

      The individual does not define right and wrong. Right and wrong is not an answer to a poll question. Catholicism says that the magesterium in infallible in faith and morals. Not the Individual. You do not know what Catholicism is thou it sounds like you consider yourself one. Better bone up or you might have some surprizes at the pearly's.

      The scriptures say "trust not in your own understanding and that God will give us shepherds after his own heart. Your view of the Church is contrary to this.

      June 21, 2012 at 11:56 am |
    • Fallacy Spotting 101

      Post by 'gerald' contains instances of the No True Scotsmen fallacy, a series of non sequitur and obfuscating statements, and a threatening form of the flawed argument known as Pascal's Wager/

      http://fallacyfiles.org

      June 21, 2012 at 12:04 pm |
    • Be

      Actually Dorothy is correct. The magisterium is only considered infallible when two conditions exist: when speaking ex cathedra and when articulating what has already been embraced as truth by the faithful. These conditions have only been met a couple times in history and has never been met yet in matters of morals.

      June 21, 2012 at 12:10 pm |
    • gerald

      BE – Why don't you try reading Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott. You are extremely confused about infallibility. Since the dogma of PAPAL infallibility was declared in the 1800's there have only been two instances it was excercised. However the dogma was in effect though not explicitly stated by the Church b4 that and there were around 20 instances of it before that in which the conditions under which VI defined it were met. Further infallibility does not just include papal infallibility as your response implies but Magesterial infallibility. There are over 300 cases of that. Further. And there is no doctrine about whether the laity accepts or rejects Church doctrine as you imply.

      June 21, 2012 at 1:24 pm |
    • gerald

      Fallacy, where have I employed pascal's wager? The legitimate authority of the United States has the right to define what a US citizen is but the legitimate authority of the Catholic Church does not have the right to define what is Catholicism and who is Catholic?

      June 21, 2012 at 1:26 pm |
    • jaun es de la Marque

      @gerald the bible ssays instead " Trusxt in the lord lean not to thine own understanding in all thy ways acknowledge him and he shall direct thy paths...Greater is he that is in me than he that is in the world...

      this means that we have Christ in us the hope of glory and need not any man to teach us..as it is wirtten but the anointing which you have receive of him abides in you and you need not that any man teach you but as the same anointing is true and is no lie , even as it has taught you , you shall abide in mim... these verses abide in me sinc eI needed not any one to reference them...so too can Dorthy decide for herself...and she is absolutely right about the hirearchy and their black black marks on your Chruch...why they went for at least 1600 years with out the baptism in the holy Spirit... Jeepers 🙂 🙂

      June 21, 2012 at 1:47 pm |
    • Dorothy

      Gerald, Be is not incorrect. You assume that he is speaking only about papal infallibility, but his answer is true in regards to Papal and magisterial infallibility. Also, if we are going to pull the infallibility card, there has historically not only been "Magesterium cathedrae pontificalis", there is also "Magisterium cathedrae magistralis" – or the authority of theologians in the teaching life of the church. I would point out the the Magisterium of the Bishops/Pope was the authority used to silence Galileo. How did that work out for us? Many theologians are quite able to articulate why gay marriage is consistent with christian teaching. Given history, I would tend to be respectful of that authority over the less humble authority of the magisterium. Dostoevsky once wrote, "God knows the truth, but waits." I would say that the truth of gay marriage is slowly awakening, thank God.

      June 21, 2012 at 1:48 pm |
    • gerald

      Dorothy, can you explain for me how infallibility was invoked/applied according to the decrees of Vatican I in the Galileo incidnt? Thanks. In

      June 21, 2012 at 2:25 pm |
    • gerald

      There is no infallibilioty with regard to theologians. That is nonsense. By it's nature the work of theologians is speculative.

      June 21, 2012 at 2:26 pm |
    • sam

      There's no proof that will ever satisfy you, gerald.

      June 21, 2012 at 2:47 pm |
    • gerald

      Nor you sam.

      June 21, 2012 at 5:10 pm |
  4. Evangelical

    Ho-mos-exuals are kidding themselves if they think they will ever be accepted by American society at large.

    June 21, 2012 at 11:36 am |
    • Dorothy

      Ohh,, you poor thing. Catch up with reality. The majority already have accepted it.

      June 21, 2012 at 11:42 am |
    • Evangelical

      Well that's funny, Dorothy, because ho-mos-exual marriage has been voted down in every state where it was put up to a vote.

      June 21, 2012 at 11:52 am |
    • gerald

      There is a difference between accepting hom.se.x.uals and accepting hom.o.s.ex.ual acts. We are called to do the former, l(oving the sinner) but not the latter (not the sin). Hom.oxl acts will always be a grave s.in in Catholicism.

      June 21, 2012 at 12:00 pm |
    • Bet

      @ Eva

      That is why the SCOTUS will decide. Did you miss your junior high civics class when they discussed "tyranny of the majority'? When the SCOTUS ruled on interracial marriage, the majority of voters were against it. Forty five years later, we look at that time as an embarrassment. Years from now, people will look at your views with the same embarrassment "Do you believe those ignorant people thought that way?"

      You don't know the law any better than you know your bible.

      June 21, 2012 at 12:04 pm |
    • Ben

      We'd better not tell them about our physically intimate relationship then gerald.

      June 21, 2012 at 12:08 pm |
    • Be

      I think Dorothy is spot on. Regarding marriage, civil rights have never been left to the popular vote. That has always required legislation. This issue will be no different. It is moving in that direction already.

      June 21, 2012 at 12:15 pm |
    • Be

      Actually, Gerald, that would be a bit like me saying "I love the bigot, I just hate the bigotry.". While possibly true, I don't think it endears me to the bigot – does it? No, really, does it?

      June 21, 2012 at 12:24 pm |
    • Thats So Gay

      I agree... Gay marriage has been rejected by the vote of the people in every state in which it is at the ballot box. Here are the statistics:
      http://oldsite.alliancedefensefund.org/userdocs/MarriageAmendmentVotePercentages.pdf

      June 21, 2012 at 12:43 pm |
    • Be

      TSG – that has been true of every civil rights endeavor....including desegregation, women's right to vote, and slavery. There is no reason to think this will be any different. The majority accept gays without hesitation. It will take awhile before the majority are educated on the implications of that acceptance. After all, it took a number of years before people realized that "equal but separate" was not true equality for the blacks either.

      June 21, 2012 at 12:53 pm |
    • gerald

      BE it appears that your way to lvoing everyone is to remove sin, i.e. deny that it exists. We are all sinners so to love the sinner without loving the sin or without denying that it exists is in fact what we are called to do.

      June 21, 2012 at 1:30 pm |
    • CathEngineer-2

      Dorothy: ... By "majority" should be understood those ex-Catholics who decided to rewrite the scriptures to suit themselves.

      June 21, 2012 at 1:39 pm |
    • sam

      Thanks Dorothy – well said.

      Gerald, your idea of 'sin' is outrageous and outdated. If you think something is sinful, feel free to avoid doing it. You have zero business voting for legislation forcing others to conform to your worldview, though. Deal with it.

      June 21, 2012 at 2:29 pm |
    • sam stone

      Sure, Eva....

      People are going to share your bigotry forever.

      Back on your knees, Beyotch

      June 21, 2012 at 4:17 pm |
    • gerald

      Sam,

      Make me.

      June 21, 2012 at 5:09 pm |
    • Dorothy

      wow Gerald....that was a big ole na, na, na, na, na.

      June 21, 2012 at 7:17 pm |
  5. John

    Your religion has no place in politics. People would not even care about this if people kept them seperate.

    June 21, 2012 at 9:49 am |
    • Evangelical

      You can say that religion has no place in politics, but that will not stop Christians from exercising their God-given rights. Christians have freedom of speech. Christians vote. Christians serve in public office.

      June 21, 2012 at 11:40 am |
    • gerald

      So when we vote and engage in political activities we are not allowed to practice our religion or use it to influence our vote? That's dumb.

      June 21, 2012 at 12:01 pm |
    • jaun es de la Marque

      I think the issue will outlast the bigotry in America...

      June 21, 2012 at 1:54 pm |
    • sam

      God given rights? You don't get to tell the entire country how they can live. That's pure arrogance, and cooler heads are going to eventually prevail.

      June 21, 2012 at 2:30 pm |
    • Cq

      Evangelical
      Our rights aren't God-given. We fought for the ability to choose our own rights and we invented a secular, democratic nation with a governing system designed to establish and protect the rights we wanted as a society. If we had stuck with the Bible women wouldn't have many rights and slavery would still be the norm. Luckily, we rose above that.

      June 21, 2012 at 3:21 pm |
  6. Thats So Gay

    God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

    June 21, 2012 at 9:43 am |
    • mandarax

      ...and yet in actuality he didn't. Even if he did, did you notice he didn't marry them? So what's your point again?

      June 21, 2012 at 9:48 am |
    • Primewonk

      You fundiots believe that god created Adam & Eve 6000 years ago. You also claim that your god created Eve from Adam's rib.

      However, wer all know that your god is scientifically ignorant. After all, he thinks you treat leprosy by using a live bird to sprinkle the blood of a dead bird around a house.

      If your god made Eve from Adam's rib, she would have been a genetic clone of Adam. She would have had the same DNA as Adam. She would have had the same chromosomes as Adam. She would have had the same XY chromosome as Adam. She would have been a dude.

      So, yeah, your god DID make Adam and Steve.

      June 21, 2012 at 9:53 am |
    • Thats So Gay

      sorry, wonk. I know the truth hurts. You believe in God just as much as I do. The Bible says so:

      "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:19-20

      June 21, 2012 at 10:05 am |
    • Thats So Gay

      God doesn't believe in atheists.

      June 21, 2012 at 10:10 am |
    • sam stone

      God doesn't believe in atheists?

      We know atheists exist.

      Therefore god is not omniscient

      June 21, 2012 at 10:18 am |
    • Thats So Gay

      nice try, sam. God is omniscient and knows all things, including those who claim they are atheists. However, he has written knowledge of himself in every man's heart. Therefore, there are no true atheists.

      June 21, 2012 at 10:23 am |
    • mandarax

      "You believe in God just as much as I do. The Bible says so"

      That literally made me laugh out loud! "Thats So Gay" is probably not even aware of the absurdity. Man, people just kill me sometimes.

      June 21, 2012 at 10:29 am |
    • John

      "God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve."

      Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.

      Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.

      There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.

      Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.

      1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.

      Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?

      Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).

      That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex.

      June 21, 2012 at 10:50 am |
    • LinCA

      @Thats So Gay

      You said, "I know the truth hurts. You believe in God just as much as I do. The Bible says so"
      ROTFLMAO. Jesus H. fucking Christ, can it get any dumber? Does it hurt to be this stupid? The only thing that statements like that show, is that people that make those statements are a few of fries short of a Happy Meal.

      Here are some little known facts about your bible. The bible holds no truth. Nothing in the bible applies to anyone who isn't christian. Nothing that is good about the bible is unique to it, nor was it original (and we can certainly do without the rest). Nothing the bible says has any value in any argument with someone who isn't christian.

      While you are free to quote your fairy tales to your fellow believers, and in that case you may even win an argument with those quotes, in a rational discussion you are better off quoting the nutrition facts from your breakfast cereal box. At least they contain facts.

      June 21, 2012 at 11:09 am |
    • Thats So Gay

      The liberal pro-gay arguments from the Bible have been refuted here:
      http://www.exodusglobalalliance.org/respondingtoprogaytheologypartip344.php
      http://www.exodusglobalalliance.org/respondingtoprogaytheologypartiip345.php
      http://www.exodusglobalalliance.org/respondingtoprogaytheologypartiiip346.php

      June 21, 2012 at 12:28 pm |
    • Thats So Gay

      @ linCA, just keep raging against the truth. The bible is true and you know it. Repent while there's still time.

      "Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
      The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
      He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision." Psalm 2

      June 21, 2012 at 12:31 pm |
    • Cq

      Thats So Gay
      But God did supposedly create Jonathan and David, right?

      June 21, 2012 at 3:23 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "http://www.exodusglobalalliance.org/respondingtoprogaytheologypartip344.php"

      Yo moron, it's why the experts are coming out against frauds like this guy. Because of the aggressive promotion of efforts to change sexual orientation through therapy, a number of medical, health, and mental health professional organizations have issued public statements about the dangers of this approach. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      June 21, 2012 at 3:31 pm |
    • LinCA

      @Thats So Gay

      You said, "linCA, just keep raging against the truth."
      I keep raging against the obviously insane rantings of believers like yourself. No truth is ever harmed.

      You said, "The bible is true and you know it."
      The bible isn't anything more than a third rate fairy tale. There is no truth to be found in it. Any resemblance to truth is purely coincidental. It's garbage.

      June 21, 2012 at 11:38 pm |
  7. Gays are perves

    If minnesota has any sense they vote for marriage and against perversion.

    June 21, 2012 at 9:27 am |
    • YeahRight

      "If minnesota has any sense they vote for marriage and against perversion."

      Only uneducated prejudice bigots make this kind of stupid statement. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      June 21, 2012 at 10:51 am |
    • HotAirAce

      Correct – they will for marriage for all and an end to the perversion of discrimination.

      June 21, 2012 at 10:53 am |
    • Cq

      Voting for same-$ex marriage is a vote for marriage.

      June 21, 2012 at 3:24 pm |
  8. But seriously...

    Why in the world gay women and men would want to get married and be miserable like heteros exuals is beyond me.

    June 21, 2012 at 8:55 am |
  9. Doc Vestibule

    The Catholic tenet of Primacy of Conscience allows a believer to support gay marriage.

    June 21, 2012 at 8:50 am |
    • bob

      No. It doesn't. You can't hide behind Primacy in a matter that is so specifically addressed by both Scripture and the Church. The doctrine is VERY clearly laid out.

      June 21, 2012 at 9:45 am |
  10. Reality

    Only for new member of this blog:

    o "Abrahamics" like Catholics believe that their god created all of us and of course that includes the g-ay members of the human race. Also, those who have studied ho-mo-se-xuality have determined that there is no choice involved therefore ga-ys are ga-y because god made them that way.

    1. The Royal College of Psy-chiatrists stated in 2007:

    “ Despite almost a century of psy-choanalytic and psy-chological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heteros-exual or hom-ose-xual orientation. It would appear that s-exual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of ge-netic factors and the early ut-erine environment. Se-xual orientation is therefore not a choice.[60] "

    2. "Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab state in the abstract of their 2010 study, "The fe-tal brain develops during the intraut-erine period in the male direction through a direct action of tes-tosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hor-mone surge. In this way, our gender identi-ty (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and s-exual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender ident–ity or s-exual orientation."[8

    3. See also the Philadelphia Inquirer review “Gay Gene, Deconstructed”, 12/12/2011. Said review addresses the following “How do genes associated with ho-mose-xuality avoid being weeded out by Darwinian evolution?”

    Of course, those gays who belong to Abrahamic religions supposedly abide by the rules of no adu-ltery or for-nication allowed.

    And because of basic biology differences said monogamous ventures should always be called same-se-x unions not same-se-x marriages.

    To wit:

    From below, on top, backwards, forwards, from this side of the Moon and from the other side too, ga-y s-exual activity is still mutual mas-turbation caused by one or more complex s-exual differences. Some differences are visually obvious in for example the complex maleness of DeGeneres, Billy Jean King and Rosie O'Donnell.

    Yes, heteros-exuals practice many of the same "moves" but there is never a doubt who is the female and who is the male.

    As noted, there are basic biological differences in gay unions vs. heterose-xual marriage. Government benefits are the same in both but making the distinction is important for census data and for social responses with respect to potential issues with disease, divorce and family interactions.

    June 21, 2012 at 8:38 am |
    • Reality

      Oops, make that "Only for new members of this blog".

      June 21, 2012 at 8:39 am |
  11. nigel

    If Jesus were alive today, he wouldn't be a Catholic.

    Funny how he was hanging out with all those sensitive men...

    June 21, 2012 at 3:00 am |
    • Evangelical

      Your implication is blasphemous.

      June 21, 2012 at 3:08 am |
    • HotAirAce

      It's only blasphemy to members of your cult. To everyone else it's free speech and to many, it's the truth.

      June 21, 2012 at 3:13 am |
    • nigel

      An amusing reading comprehension exercise:

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772014

      June 21, 2012 at 3:17 am |
    • sam stone

      And your bigotry isn't, Eva?

      June 21, 2012 at 3:21 am |
    • HotAirAce

      Everybody knows that The University of Georgia, Athens is seething with gays and promoters of the gay agenda!

      June 21, 2012 at 3:22 am |
    • AusieSceptic1

      if jesus was alive today he'd be now, what he was then.

      jewish fundamentalist

      June 21, 2012 at 4:24 am |
    • zaqaz

      I don't believe in God either, but making fun of someone's beliefs? Pathetic. Free and protected speech it is, and pathetic.

      June 21, 2012 at 5:18 am |
    • Primewonk

      If Jesus was alive today, not only wouldn't the tea baggers recognize him, they'd crucify him all over again.

      June 21, 2012 at 8:26 am |
    • gerald

      Which one of the 30,000 baskin robbins flavors of protestantism would he be?

      June 21, 2012 at 8:43 am |
    • mandarax

      Ah, blasphemy. The ultimate victimless crime.

      June 21, 2012 at 9:50 am |
    • Just Claims, No Truth

      Somtimes the only weapon against ridiculous ideas is ridicule.

      June 21, 2012 at 10:56 am |
    • Bet

      Eva, Jesus is coming back to earth on a throne wrapped in a rainbow. It's in Revelations. That's part of the bible, you know, the book you claim to have studied.

      You don't know the bible very well for someone who likes to tell everyone else what to think.

      June 21, 2012 at 12:10 pm |
    • Cq

      AusieSceptic1
      Jesus would be Jewish, yes but, if the Gospel accounts of his run ins with the Pharisees are correct, then he would be a pretty liberal rabbi.

      Just an ordinary Jew that most of the Rapture-ready would happily see being thrown into hell for not converting before the graven idol they have made him to be. Ironic, isn't it?

      June 21, 2012 at 3:31 pm |
    • ImLook'nUp

      @ BET

      Jesus is coming back to earth on a throne wrapped in a rainbow?
      ACTS 1:11 says: "Men of Galilee, why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

      I suggest you do a little bit more reading and studying.

      June 21, 2012 at 5:00 pm |
    • Bet

      @ Imlookinup

      You dumb jackwagon, it's in Rev. 4:3. Pick up your friggin' bible and look it up.

      King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
      And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a carnelian stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in appearance like unto an emerald.

      It's in the bible in friggin' black and white!

      LOL you don't even know what's in the bible you claim is the word of god and you're telling me to "do a little more reading and studying". You are such a moron.

      June 21, 2012 at 10:29 pm |
  12. Jade

    How did people being born gay become a topic? The article is about if "True Catholics" can support Gay Marriage...

    June 21, 2012 at 2:53 am |
    • Evangelical

      The comment sections to these articles always degenerate into atheism vs. religion or born gay vs. choose to be gay. It's always like that.

      June 21, 2012 at 3:06 am |
    • nigel

      It annoys me too, brother. Just keep preaching the gospel. For example

      “You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? (Matthew 5:43-47 )

      June 21, 2012 at 3:39 am |
    • Madtown

      Evangelical
      The comment sections to these articles always degenerate into atheism vs. religion or born gay vs. choose to be gay. It's always like that.
      -------
      It is always like that. And, it's usually the hateful empty-heads like you that take it there.

      June 21, 2012 at 8:48 am |
  13. Canadian

    "There's no place for the state in the bedrooms of the people."
    – Pierre Elliott Trudeau (former Canadian Prime Minister and Roman Catholic)

    June 21, 2012 at 1:16 am |
    • kerfluffle

      "There is no reasoning with simple-minded folk with hatred in their hearts."

      kerfluffle, 2012, straight American with more to fear from bible-thumpers than from gay marriage.

      June 21, 2012 at 1:19 am |
    • Evangelical

      @Canadian

      Keep your canadian crap in canada. Stay on yoiur own sites.

      June 21, 2012 at 1:27 am |
    • nigel

      This dude must especially hate gay Canadians.

      June 21, 2012 at 3:21 am |
    • sam stone

      Eva: It is an international site, so the Canadian's opinion is as welcome as yours is. If that bothers you, too bad

      June 21, 2012 at 3:25 am |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      Eva: As much as I love my neighbors to the South, some of you could learn something from us...not you per say, you stopped learning the second you found the buybull. Our country is not fighting over gay marriage or contraceptive coverage or healthcare for all...we have those things already across the board and it works. We of course are also more secular. As Sam pointed out and AtheistSteve & I have on numerous occasions, this is an international website...we will continue to come here and your pointless drivel of your hatred and bigotry will continue to amuse us. Your xenophobia only amuses us. If you don't like what you read from us, you too are free to find another web-site (chances are you'll find a Canadian there also) or better yet, disconnect your internet...after all without an Atheist you wouldn't have it.

      June 21, 2012 at 7:01 am |
    • mandarax

      Wow, an Evangelical who is religious, ignorant, AND xenophobic – what a shocker!

      June 21, 2012 at 9:53 am |
    • Thats So Gay

      sorry canadians, but your country is a liberal hell-hole.

      June 21, 2012 at 9:55 am |
    • mandarax

      Yeah, you Canadians and your low crime rates, stable government, low poverty levels, universal healthcare, good education system, and your population known worldwide for being polite and amicable. Why don't you guys get it together? What a hell-hole.

      June 21, 2012 at 10:26 am |
    • HotAirAce

      Unfortunately we do have a conservative christian believer masquerading as prime minister – closest thing to believer's non-existent hell I can imagine.

      June 21, 2012 at 10:58 am |
  14. Evangelical

    Ho-mos-exual marriage is just the tip of the iceberg of what these per-verts want. Next they will want laws that make it illegal to fire someone because he is a ho-mos-exual. Mark my words. That, folks, is the gay agenda. We will be living in an America where depravity runs unchecked. Is that the kind of America you want to live in? Is that the kind of America you want to leave to your children? If it is, don't whine when God unleashes all kinds of death and destruction upon you.

    Someone brought up a book earlier today that I had not heard of before. The book is called "The Marketing of Evil." I picked one up in my bookstore on the way to church this evening. I have only thumbed through it, but I can say that it appears to be excellent. It deals with a lot, but the chapter on ho-mos-exual rights is a must read. It really turns the spotlight on the ho-mos-exual agenda.

    June 21, 2012 at 12:12 am |
    • Just Claims, No Truth

      That book is the bible....been around a long time.

      June 21, 2012 at 12:23 am |
    • PRISM 1234

      Yep! That's exactly what's being done. They are marketing their garbage, using enormous amount of $$$$$$$ to push their propaganda, rubbing it "in our faces" and forcing it "down our throats".
      Every time you turn on TV or read news, its something about "ga-ys". They make it look that this is the most urgent news the world needs to hear. Talking about the brainwashing.....
      It is sickening what this world is sinking in depravity! I fear for our children's future! God help us!

      June 21, 2012 at 12:24 am |
    • tallulah13

      Christian perverts are trying to deny people their Const.it.utional rights on the basis of a book of middle eastern mythology. Christian perverts can't even prove that their god exists, yet they try to use "him" as a reason to instigate hatred and discrimination against a minority. Mark my words, christian perverts have an agenda to harm others.

      Do you really want an America that is closer to a middle-eastern theocracy than the secular nation created by our founding fathers? Do you really want to live in a country where people are discriminated against because of superst.ition, not scientific fact? Do you really want the United States to be destroyed by ignorance and fear?

      June 21, 2012 at 12:26 am |
    • Evangelical

      Tallulah,

      Secularism is the number one threat facing America today.

      June 21, 2012 at 12:32 am |
    • tallulah13

      What is your proof, Evangelical? You make accusations, but you have no substantial evidence to back you claims. You can't even prove your god exists. All you have is your personal fear and hatred of people who don't believe exactly what you do.

      It's a shame that you hate the freedoms guaranteed to us in the Const.itution. It's sad that you reject the wisdom of our founding fathers, who deliberately separated religion from government in order to protect ALL this nation's citizens, not just the christians. In the United States, the Const.itution trumps the bible, for the sake of us all.

      June 21, 2012 at 12:42 am |
    • Evangelical

      My proof? How about this article as proof that America is becoming a moral sewer. This topic would have been unheard of years ago. More proof: p0rnography everywhere even on our TV shows during prime time. More proof: divorce has become accepted in American society. It didn't used to be that way. The list goes on and on.

      June 21, 2012 at 12:50 am |
    • Just Claims, No Truth

      Evangelical,

      You first have to explain why actions that harm no one and only offend your god are immoral and not just an opinion.

      June 21, 2012 at 12:52 am |
    • tallulah13

      It is appalling that you consider equal rights to be "sewage". I truly hope that someday you face the sort of discrimination you would force upon others. I suspect that would be the only way you would learn human decency. Then again, you are probably so self-centered that you would believe yourself to be some sort of martyr if you had to put up with even a fraction of the hatred faced by gays and lesbians in our society.

      You hate people because you don't understand them. You pretend you are sanctioned by a god that you can't even prove exists. And sadly, that makes you think you are a good person.

      June 21, 2012 at 12:57 am |
    • Evangelical

      @Tallulah,

      Your entire post was an ad homenim on me. I am replying only to say that I understand ho-mos-exuals. It really isn't rocket science. They want the state to recognize a right to bugger a person of the same s.ex. It's that simple. And Christians say no to that. Because Christians say no, we are called names, haters, and are subject to the kind of personal attacks like you just did.

      June 21, 2012 at 1:05 am |
    • HotAirAce

      Eva, what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home is none of your, or your alledged supernatural (but imaginary) friends, business! How about you believers comply with your own cult's rules before imposing them on us? I suggest you get the number of abortions had by believers to zero before worrying about others. Hypocrite!

      June 21, 2012 at 1:11 am |
    • kerfluffle

      I would have to say that your entire commentary fits within my definition of depravity. Your perspective is cancerous, and it will be treated, and excised.

      June 21, 2012 at 1:11 am |
    • Evangelical

      @HotAir

      I really couldn't care less what a canadian has to say. Make like your name and blow.

      June 21, 2012 at 1:17 am |
    • Blane

      Evangelical,

      Don't waste your time with these wretches. They will never understand what it means to be touched by God.

      June 21, 2012 at 1:20 am |
    • kerfluffle

      'blow'? really? how latent of you Eva...

      June 21, 2012 at 1:20 am |
    • Just Claims, No Truth

      Eva,

      You don't care about anyone who is not like you. I thought your god Jesus said to love your enemies?

      June 21, 2012 at 1:21 am |
    • kerfluffle

      'touched by god'? or touched by a priest–god's messenger?

      you people are perverted

      June 21, 2012 at 1:21 am |
    • HotAirAce

      Yup! Run and hide time for yet another bigoted loud mouth believer... A coward and a hypocrite!

      June 21, 2012 at 1:24 am |
    • Evangelical

      Well, look at the moral degenerates twisting words around with their filthy minds. Folks, this is what we're up against. Do you want these types of people to succeed?

      June 21, 2012 at 1:25 am |
    • HotAirAce

      Eva, please explain how you can determine someone's character from the few words written here. Given that you think you can do that, and that you are very wrong in at least one case, you must also believe in astrology or witchcraft, in addition to the jesus myth.

      June 21, 2012 at 1:34 am |
    • tallulah13

      Yes, Evangelical. Your mind is filthy. You should be ashamed of your irrational hatred, but you embrace it. You would rather believe in your fairy tale god than in the science that shows that hom.os.exuality is just as inborn as heteros.exuality. You would rather hate than seek the understanding that would let you put aside your fears and realize that gays and lesbians are virtually identical to straight people. The only difference is the inborn desire to seek not just s.ex, but affection with a person of the same gender.

      You would deny happiness and equality to others for no better reason than that they make you uncomfortable. Shame on you.

      June 21, 2012 at 1:35 am |
    • Evangelical

      Another ad homenim from Tallulah. If you don't have anything to add to the conversation, just scream "hater, hater, na na na bla bla." Yep, we are quite used to it from people of your ilk.

      June 21, 2012 at 1:39 am |
    • Just Claims, No Truth

      Mark my words if and when these preachers get control of the (republican) party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians Believe they are acting in the name of god, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.

      ~Republican Barry Goldwater

      June 21, 2012 at 1:40 am |
    • Evangelical

      @Hot air

      Hence forth I am going to ignore you. You opinion counts for zero in the US. I don't even understand why you bother with what doesn't concernn you.

      June 21, 2012 at 1:42 am |
    • tallulah13

      Evangelical, you call people perverse on the basis of your personal opinion. How is that not a personal attack? You ignore the science that shows that hom.os.exuality is innate and equally ignore the fact that there isn't a single shred of evidence to support the existence of your god. You are operating from a position of irrational hatred.

      Try providing any evidence at all to support your claims. You haven't so far. You've cited your opinion, a book of mythology and a book of propaganda that you haven't even read. Try citing fact if you wish your opinion to be respected.

      June 21, 2012 at 1:47 am |
    • tallulah13

      Evangelical shows his/her true colors. He/she has no legitimate rebut.tal to Hot Air Ace's comment, therefore he/she will ignore them. What a moral coward. Actually, what an immoral coward.

      June 21, 2012 at 1:50 am |
    • HotAirAce

      So Eva is the latest "Run and Hide Herbie"...

      As I've said before, I'm here to:
      – correct believer bullsh!t,
      – keep an eye on believer crazies that want to put the USA and Canada on a path to becoming theocracies,
      – show folks, particularly younger folks who have been indoctrinated since birth, that they do not have to belong to a religious cult and
      – for the sheer humour of reading the crap believers believe.

      Any more questions?

      June 21, 2012 at 1:51 am |
    • Evangelical

      Tallulah,

      It is not my opinion, it is God's Word. I am not the only one who believes as I do because we all turn to God's Word. And if you don't like the book that I cited above, there are plenty of good Christian books I can list for you. It is not propaganda, and by calling it such, you are libeling the author. I cited facts for you but you didn't want to hear them so you just keep on repeating the same mantra "facts, facts, facts" thinking that you can convince others that I gave you no facts. The number one fact that you have to know is that we wouldn't be having this conversation during the Reagan Era. People were more moral then. We slipped, and we slipped big time into the moral gutter.

      June 21, 2012 at 1:58 am |
    • Just Claims, No Truth

      HotAir,

      Eva ignores people that mess with her delusion too much. God always hates the exact same people his worshipers hates, but he can't deal with them himself, he is impotent.

      June 21, 2012 at 2:01 am |
    • tallulah13

      Evangelical, you can't even prove your god exists. You are trying to rationalize hatred on the basis you what you wish to believe. You are trying to deny equal rights to a minority because of your personal bigotry, and that is immoral, at least to those of us who haven't sold our humanity for the pipe-dream of immortality.

      June 21, 2012 at 2:04 am |
    • Evangelical

      @Tallulah

      True to form, all you do is scream "hater, hater" and "bigot, bigot." But Jesus said that it would be like this for believers. As far as proof of God, like all Christians, I have all the proof I need.

      June 21, 2012 at 2:09 am |
    • tallulah13

      Hey Eva, the last word (at least for tonight) is yours if you want it. I've gotta sign off and get to bed because it's a work day tomorrow. How about using this opportunity to provide some facts that support your opinion, because no matter what you claim, you haven't actually provided any. Possibly because facts that support your claims don't exist.

      June 21, 2012 at 2:09 am |
    • HotAirAce

      So Eva, let's assume that your second most prized book (after The Babble) is correct – that there is a gay agenda. So what? Isn't there a christian agenda? Is the right of free speech another right you would take away from gays? Please tell us, if you could pray to your imaginary god(s) and actually get a response, what would the final solution for the gay problem be that you would ask for? Don't be shy – tell us exactly what you think should be done to these apparent second-class citizens to preserve your mythology and country.

      June 21, 2012 at 2:12 am |
    • Bet

      Eva, I hate to break it to you, but it's already illegal to fire someone for being gay. You don't know the law any better than you know the bible. Are you going to run away again like you always do? It makes me laugh every time I see your pompous, self righteous proclamations.

      June 21, 2012 at 2:38 am |
    • sue-helen

      God (if you like to call it that), unleashes death and destruction everyday in this world. How do you explain the death and destruction "God" unleashes on innocent, good living people everyday? The greatest evil on this planet however, is the brainwashing of young children to believe the rubbish and utter garbage regarding the fairytale of religion, with all it's malicious threats, ludicrous fabrications and non-applicable rules for living. We can be good, caring human beings without the burden of the hokus-pokus of religion.

      June 21, 2012 at 2:42 am |
    • nigel

      I jest thumbed through it 'cause I caint be bothered to read.

      June 21, 2012 at 2:56 am |
    • Evangelical

      @Bet

      No it is not illegal to fire a ho-mos-exual:

      http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2012/05/14/should-employers-be-able-to-fire-someone-for-being-gay

      Some states might have laws against it, but thank God, mine isn't one of them.

      June 21, 2012 at 2:56 am |
    • Evangelical

      @sue-helen

      Without God, it is meaningless to speak of good. All morality stems from God.

      June 21, 2012 at 2:59 am |
    • Evangelical

      @nigel

      I thumbed through it because I was at church this evening. I am reading it now and will have it read in a day or two. I thought I made it clear that I was in church. You need to work on your reading comprehension.

      June 21, 2012 at 3:03 am |
    • HotAirAce

      So Eva, you support discriminating against gays. Given that I hate religion, and that this is a deeply held belief much like your homophobia but without a mythical book like The Babble that uses circular unproven (il)logic to justify bigotry, can I count on your support for my right to discriminate against believers? Are you Ok with me posting "Help Wanted. Apply Within – Unless You Are A Believer" signs?

      June 21, 2012 at 3:08 am |
    • nigel

      Amen brother! This country was downright righteous in the Reagan era. For example, Ronnie's boys sold weapons to the Iranians, knowing that those dumb Muslims couldn't make em work, and gave the proceeds to the freedom loving Contras so that they could spread God's word, one 50 caliber round at a time! Genius! I can't believe the depths this country has sunk to since. Kill em all, let God sort em out, I've always said.

      June 21, 2012 at 3:12 am |
    • nigel

      I don't have time to read because I was at church. Absolutely brilliant. I am in awe.

      June 21, 2012 at 3:23 am |
    • sam stone

      Yeah, equal rights always bother bigots

      June 21, 2012 at 3:28 am |
    • Primewonk

      Evangelical wrote, " p0rnography everywhere even on our TV shows during prime time. "

      Interesting fact for you – a couple years back a research study was done looking at pôrn by location. De-identified credit card data was analized by state and zip code for pôrn purchases on the internet. The top 10 states were all "red" fundiot states. And the number 1 state? Utah!

      June 21, 2012 at 8:33 am |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      Eva: As much as I understand you hate Canadian opinion, you must suck it up and deal with it. If you do not like your secular country then you might wish to move to one where there is no secularism. Your opinion is not going to change the course of time and what is happening. You can either join the rest of the world or depart to a cave. Your opinion is one of hate and bigotry and never intellect. You're the exact opposite of the definition of good in this world.

      June 21, 2012 at 8:57 am |
    • Max

      Wow, Eva! I'm white, straight, and live in Montgomery, Alabama. You scare the crap out of me. If your idea of what America should be like comes to pass, I'm headed to Canada.

      June 21, 2012 at 10:13 am |
    • YeahRight

      "Ho-mos-exual marriage is just the tip of the iceberg of what these per-verts want. "

      Your ego can't stand the fact that hundred of thousands of experts have proven you wrong. Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      The U S Supreme court ruled that marriage is a civil right and gay couples deserve those rights.

      June 21, 2012 at 10:54 am |
    • Evangelical

      @YeahRight

      I've told you before that not one of you "experts" are experts in morality. Now that you've outed yourself as a canadian, your opinion is worth even less. What happens here is no business of yours.

      June 21, 2012 at 11:15 am |
    • Bet

      @ Eva

      It's legislated in many states and soon will be at the federal level. Now you want to deny gay people jobs as well as the right to marry? What a bigot.

      Maybe you can find me a bible verse that supports denying someone a job because they're gay. Oh, right, you only know the parts that support your favorite ideas, condemnation and fear. You make your god and bible fit into the world you've created. Your arrogance is unlimited.

      June 21, 2012 at 11:51 am |
    • Evangelical

      @Bet

      Don't make me laugh. Do you really think it has a snowball's chance in hell of making it through the House? They couldn't pass it when the democrats controlled both houses of Congress. Do you know why? Because America doesn't want your depravity.

      June 21, 2012 at 11:55 am |
    • Bet

      That's why it will end up in court and the SCOTUS will decide. Didn't you take a civics class in school?

      And here you are yammering against Canadians. They know more about American law and government than you do. The athe.ists here know more about the bible than you do. Laughable.

      America will not fail because your god doesn't like us. It will fail because religion continues to keep Americans stupid and backwards.

      June 21, 2012 at 12:26 pm |
    • Nope!

      "How about this article as proof that America is becoming a moral sewer"

      You've got that right, brother!

      June 21, 2012 at 3:10 pm |
  15. Nope!

    Can 'true Catholics' support same-se-x marriage?
    True Christians can't....don't know about true catholics!

    June 21, 2012 at 12:07 am |
    • HotAirAce

      So anyone who supports same s3x marriage is not a true christian? Where's Fallacy Spotter when you need 'im?!?

      June 21, 2012 at 1:41 am |
    • Just Claims, No Truth

      No true Scotsman!

      June 21, 2012 at 1:57 am |
    • Matthew

      "True Christians can't."

      Homosexuality is not a sin according to the Bible. Any educated Christian would know that. Scholars who have studied the Bible in context of the times and in relation to other passages have shown those passages (Leviticus, Corinthians, Romans, etc) have nothing to do with homosexuality. These passages often cherry-picked while ignoring the rest of the Bible. The sins theses passages are referring to are idolatry, prostitution, and rape, not homosexuality. That’s why Jesus never mentions it as well. There is nothing immoral, wrong, or sinful about being gay. Jesus, however, clearly states he HATES hypocrites. If you preach goodness, then promote hate and twist the words of the Bible, you are a hypocrite, and will be judged and sent to hell. Homosexuals will not go to hell, hypocrites will. This is very similar to the religious bigots of the past, where they took Bible passages to condone slavery, keep women down, and used Bible passages to claim blacks as curses who should be enslaved by the white man. People used God to claim that blacks marrying whites was unnatural, and not of God's will.

      June 21, 2012 at 10:55 am |
    • Thats So Gay

      There's no logical fallacy here. It's simple logic:
      1. God hates sin
      2. Any person who loves God, will hate what he hates (sin)
      3. Person X claim to love God
      4. Person X does not hate what God hates.
      5. (From #4 and #2) Person X does not love God.
      6. Since Person X claims to love God but does not love God, Person X is a liar and is making a false claim.

      June 21, 2012 at 1:17 pm |
    • Nope!

      "Ho-mo-se-xu-ality is not a sin according to the Bible. Any educated Christian would know that"

      Oh, really?! And just by whom did you get educated / brainwashed into forming this kind of warped opinion of the Bible? I bet I already gue-ss-ed!

      It is amazing what man will allow himself to believe just to be able to keep his pet sins!

      June 21, 2012 at 2:45 pm |
  16. TheGreenMan

    The recently publicised Canadian video of the "gay marriage" between Eric "luke magnotta" Newman and his Chinese husband is a sound reason for regarding "gay marriage" as a dysfunctional and evil aberration.

    June 20, 2012 at 11:57 pm |
    • tallulah13

      The Green RIver killer, Ted Bundy and the BTK killer all make a case against heteros.exuality, by your standards.

      June 21, 2012 at 12:16 am |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      It is also believed that Magnotta was using 'bath salts' at the time of the crime, something many states in the USA allow to be sold on their shelves. There is nothing to say he was anything more than a gay por.n star and the Chinese man was a roommate of his, they were not married.

      June 21, 2012 at 7:37 am |
    • YeahRight

      ""gay marriage" as a dysfunctional and evil aberration."

      The hundred of thousands of experts have stated that being gay is NOT a choice, it's NOT a mental illness and it CAN'T be voluntarily changed. The U S Supreme court ruled marriage is a civil right. Marriage was defined by the US Supreme Court as a civil right. Recognized federal civil rights law in the United States is grounded in the U.S. Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court. By this standard, marriage has long been established as a civil right.

      The operative constitutional text is section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment, which was ratified in 1868. The relevant passages read as follows:

      No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws

      Oh by the way a federal appeals court on May 31st ruled that the Defense of Marriage Act is unconstitutional because it denies equal rights for legally married same-sex couples, making it likely that the Supreme Court will consider the politically divisive issue for the first time in its next term. This most likely will be decided in the courts and since most courts keep ruling in gays favor they should be able to over turn all the unconstitutional laws prejudice bigots have been trying to pass.

      June 21, 2012 at 10:57 am |
  17. McCave

    No. True Catholics cannot be pro-gay marriage. A pro-gay marriage Catholic is an oxymoron.

    June 20, 2012 at 11:45 pm |
    • rudyardK

      I must agree, even though "oxymoron" makes me think of Billy Mays.

      June 20, 2012 at 11:47 pm |
    • McCave

      If you are thinking of Billy Mays that would be "OXYMORON!" (loud).

      June 20, 2012 at 11:51 pm |
    • John RM

      Whereas an anti-marriage equality Catholic (or anyone, for that matter) is an oxymoron, but omit the "oxy".

      June 21, 2012 at 12:07 am |
    • rudyardK

      @McCave: You're absolutely right. I imagine that he's turning on a spit right now as punishment for his commercial crimes.

      June 21, 2012 at 12:10 am |
    • sam stone

      Right, If there are gays involved in a marriage ceremony, Catholics want them officiating. When they can pull them off the altarboys, that is

      June 21, 2012 at 6:10 am |
  18. John

    Just keep your religion out of politics.

    June 20, 2012 at 11:39 pm |
    • Nope!

      If you keep pushing to change the definition of Marriage, you'll never see the end of it!

      June 21, 2012 at 12:14 am |
    • kerfluffle

      I'd like to marry some perspective with some of these knuckledraggers. Two of my neighbors are gay couples. All 4 of them are cool people. They work hard, they pay taxes, and they don't force their agenda on anyone, unlike the christian persecution complex sufferers.

      June 21, 2012 at 1:16 am |
    • sam stone

      nope....and you think that the definition of marriage has always been one man and one woman?

      June 21, 2012 at 6:12 am |
    • sam stone

      kerfluffle: the persecution complex makes them feel like jesus, without the real suffering, or compassion, or helping the downtrodden. it is piety-lite

      June 21, 2012 at 6:23 am |
    • jaun es de la Marque

      marriage has already been defined by our good Christian public as a 50% chance of divorce in our country.. 🙂 🙂

      June 21, 2012 at 2:22 pm |
    • Nope!

      "and you think that the definition of marriage has always been one man and one woman?"

      YEP!

      June 21, 2012 at 2:47 pm |
  19. blaka

    nooooooo thats not in e bible, in e bible a man is suppose to marry a women.......

    June 20, 2012 at 11:35 pm |
    • sam stone

      lots of things are in the bible. what makes this edited, translated hearsay from a iron age middle eastern agrarian culture valid in the here and now?

      June 21, 2012 at 6:25 am |
  20. rudyardK

    @Tom Tom: Make my own posts? I do, now and then. It's just that it's a rare time that an intelligent conversation can be had.

    My postings about you could be called something like "Musings On The Character Of Tom Tom Based On Her Bloggings", or maybe "Valley Of The Trolls". Too, I post my droppings where I expect you to be perching.

    June 20, 2012 at 11:20 pm |
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31
Advertisement
About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.