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Can 'true Catholics' support same-sex marriage?
Ex-priest Jim Smith, opponent of Minnesota's ballot to ban same-sex marriages, says these are difficult days to be Catholic.
June 20th, 2012
09:35 AM ET

Can 'true Catholics' support same-sex marriage?

By Chris Welch, CNN

Minneapolis (CNN) - Jim Smith is a former Roman Catholic priest who left his post with the church 10 years ago. He's an ex-priest for several reasons, he says, but one of his main concerns was the church's stance against same-sex marriage and other LGBT issues.

But Smith remains a Catholic - though he says being a Catholic who actively campaigns for legalized same-sex marriages can be difficult these days.

"I'd much rather this wasn't happening," Smith says of the division that the issue has created among Minnesota  Catholics. "But it does provide some real opportunities because it challenges us to talk to each other, Catholics talking to other Catholics."

Minnesota has become the newest epicenter in the same-sex marriage fight. This November, voters will decide whether they want an amendment added to the state's constitution that would ban marriage between members of the same sex.

Smith will be voting "no." And he has helped spearhead efforts in the state to persuade other Catholics to do the same.

A group he helped form,  Catholics for Marriage Equality-Minnesota, aims "to encourage Catholics to consider the profound sacredness of same-gender relationships and to defeat this marriage amendment," Smith says.

Vatican edicts against same-sex marriage often give Catholic same-sex marriage supporters the impression they're in the minority.

Related story: Same-sex marriage by the numbers 

But a recent poll by the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI) suggests 59% of American Catholics support rights allowing gay and lesbian couples to legally marry. One reason behind that statistic - says PRRI CEO Robert P. Jones - is because U.S. Catholics "overwhelmingly reject the idea that sexual orientation can be changed." A PRRI poll bears that out – with 69% of Catholics nationwide saying a person's sexual orientation cannot be changed.

In the Midwest alone, Catholics are evenly divided on the issue of same-sex marriage -– with 46% in favor, 47% against.

Opinion: GOP support for same-sex marriage growing

Related story: Both sides re-energized for upcoming same-sex marriage fight

Like Jim Smith, Michelle LaFrance is a Catholic who has also taken the bold step against the church in support of marriage equality.

"I remember thinking 'wow, maybe I shouldn't [remain a Catholic],' " LaFrance said. Ultimately they've remained with the Catholic faith, citing its many positive aspects including going to church. It's an important weekly ritual for LaFrance, her husband and their three kids.

"The Catholic Church, despite the media [attention] it typically gets, does a lot of great things, a lot of great social justice," LaFrance said. She noted the church "feeds the poor, houses the homeless, takes care of the abused."

The LaFrance family belongs to the Church of St. Margaret Mary in the Minneapolis suburb of Golden Valley, a congregation which LaFrance describes as fairly progressive. She says the majority of her fellow parishioners agree with her stance on same-sex marriage.

But when LaFrance hears the archdiocese telling people how they should think about it, she can't help but sometimes feel like less of a Catholic.

"I don't think anybody - whatever their religious denomination - whole-heartedly follows every single rule down to the letter."

Related story: U.S. history of same-sex marriage

On the other side of the debate stands Dave Deavel.

Although he agrees with LaFrance to an extent, he says he believes there are certain pillars of the Catholic faith that people should follow. One of those is the church stance that marriage should remain between one man and one woman.

"The whole point of what the church teaches is to form people's consciences," Deavel says.

For Deavel, his wife and their five children, attending church is so important they strive to go multiple times a week.

He's active with Minnesota for Marriage, which supports of the same-sex-marriage ban, and has written various blog posts on the topic for the Minnesota Catholic Conference.

Asked whether he believes a person can be "less of a Catholic" for disagreeing with the church, Deavel says the Vatican "doesn't really have a certain category for 'less of a Catholic.' "

"But they certainly don't represent what the church teaches," he said. "Is it a spiritual problem? I think yes."

Opinion: The secret gay agenda

In a written statement the MCC said groups such as Catholics for Marriage Equality "do not have any right to call their organizations 'Catholic.'"

In the past, the conference has issued statements accusing Catholics for Marriage Equality of trying "to confuse Catholics and the public about authentic church teaching" on marriage.

"Catholics for Marriage Equality MN attempts to convince Catholics that they can be in good standing with the church and oppose church teaching about human sexuality and marriage, which centers on the complementarity of the sexes and the mutual self-gift of loving spouses in marital union," said an MCC statement.

The Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis declined CNN's request for an interview, but it agreed with sentiments expressed by the Minnesota Catholic Conference.

Does church doctrine make it impossible for same-sex marriage supporters to be true Catholics?

"There is no judgment intended about an individual's 'Catholicity' or 'Catholic-ness,' " says MCC spokeswoman Jessica Zittlow.

Minnesota's November ballot proposal to ban same-sex marriage isn't an amendment against LGBT individuals, say the MCC and the St. Paul and Minneapolis Archdiocese. Instead, they say it should strictly be viewed as an amendment supporting traditional marriage.

For ex-priest Jim Smith, grappling with the issue has been difficult - a personal struggle that extends to the heart of his faith.

The inner conflict between what Smith believes is right and his love for the church has pushed him to consider leaving the Catholic religion altogether.

In the end, Smith vows he will stay. "It's in my bones."

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: 2012 Election • Catholic Church • Christianity • Faith • Minnesota • Politics • Polls • Same-sex marriage

soundoff (2,849 Responses)
  1. Tom From NY

    Is there a Bible by like Dr Seuss....I don't get all this stuff. An old book that just doesn't apply to a world that changed....

    July 2, 2012 at 6:58 pm |
  2. anonymous

    Only people who cannot counter others point resort to abuse. At that point, the abuser is deemed to have lost the argument.

    July 2, 2012 at 5:38 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Sez you. Both are entirely possible simultaneously.

      July 2, 2012 at 5:43 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Poor little Soldier. You couldn't take your ball and go home, could you?

      July 2, 2012 at 5:44 pm |
    • Dorothy

      Then shame, shame on soldier boy for calling me a witch. I guess you're saying he lost, huh? Such a shame, I think he fancied himself as doing well.

      July 2, 2012 at 11:05 pm |
  3. SolderOfConscience

    I will not post on CNN any more. the moderators are absent, and allow people to abuse others. Not worth it.

    July 2, 2012 at 3:45 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Oooh. Fluttering your handkerchief as you flounce off? Poor little "Solder".

      July 2, 2012 at 3:46 pm |
    • Jenna Jameson

      SoC ya take your toys and go home. You only played with yourself anyway and soiled your toys.

      July 2, 2012 at 3:49 pm |
    • Dorothy

      Oh buck-up soldier boy......I didn't cry and pout when you called me a witch. I simply ignored you and provided a rational answer to your silly questions. Grow up.

      July 2, 2012 at 10:49 pm |
  4. Jeannine

    "Bible 'Adam and Eve', not Adam and Steve"

    The Scriptures were written approximately 2000 or more years ago when there was no knowledge of constitutional homosexuality. The Scripture writers believed that all people were naturally heterosexual so that they viewed homosexuality activity as unnatural. Women today are pointing out that the inferiority of women expressed in the scriptures was a product of culture and the times in which the Bible was written; it should not be followed today, now that we are beginning to appreciate the natural and God-given equality of men and women.

    Similarly, as we know that homosexuality is just as natural and God-given as heterosexuality, we realize that the Biblical injunctions against homosexuality were conditioned by the attitudes and beliefs about this form of sexual expression which were held by people without benefit of centuries of scientific knowledge and understanding.

    It is unfair of us to expect or impose a twentieth century mentality and understanding about equality of genders, races and sexual orientations on the Biblical writers. We must be able to distinguish the eternal truths the Bible is meant to convey from the cultural forms and attitudes expressed there.

    July 2, 2012 at 11:20 am |
  5. Proclamation

    As Christian clergy we proclaim the Good News concerning Lesbian, Gay, Biseixual and Transgender (LiGBiT) persons and publicly apologize where we have been silent. As disciples of Jesus, who asisures us that the truth sets us free, we recognize that the debate is over. The verdict is in. Hoimoseixuality is not a sickness, not a choice, and not a sin. We find no rational biblical or theological basis to condemn or deny the rights of any person based on seixual orientation. Silence by many has allowed political and religious rhetoric to monopolize public perception, creating the impression that there is only one Christian perspective on this issue. Yet we recognize and celebrate that we are far from alone, as Christians, in affirming that LGBT persons are distinctive, holy, and precious gifts to all who struggle to become the family of God.

    In repentance and obedience to the Holy Spirit, we stand in solidarity as those who are committed to work and pray for full acceptance and inclusion of LGBT persons in our churches and in our world. We lament that LGBT persons are condemned and excluded by individuals and institutions, political and religious, who claim to be speaking the truth of Christian teaching. This leads directly and indirectly to intolerance, discrimination, suffering, and even death. The Holy Spirit compels us:

    -to affirm that the essence of Christian life is not focused on seixual orientation, but how one lives by grace in relationship with God, with compasision toward humanity;

    –to embrace the full inclusion of our LGBT brothers and sisters in all areas of church life, including leadership;

    –to declare that the violence must stop. Christ’s love moves us to work for the healing of wounded souls who are victims of abuse often propagated in the name of Christ;

    –to celebrate the prophetic witness of all people who have refused to let the voice of intolerance and violence speak for Christianity, especially LGBT persons, who have met hatred with love;

    Therefore we call for an end to all religious and civil discrimination against any person based on seixual orientation and gender identity and expression. All laws must include and protect the freedoms, rights, and equal legal standing of all persons, in and outside the church.

    July 2, 2012 at 11:14 am |
    • ImLook'nUp

      I proclaim from the lap tops: The Word of God never joins a man + man or a woman + woman in marriage. Ever.

      July 2, 2012 at 8:44 pm |
  6. YeahRight

    "All you perverts are trying to make us normal people feel comfortable with your perversions"

    Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

    July 2, 2012 at 11:13 am |
  7. John

    "All you perverts are trying to make us normal people feel comfortable with your perversions. It says in the Bible 'Adam and Eve', not Adam and Steve. Read it, learn it and live it you bunch of perverts"

    Some argue that since homosexual behavior is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.

    Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.

    There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.

    Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.

    Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behavior. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?

    Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).

    That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex

    July 2, 2012 at 11:12 am |
  8. Michael B. O'Donnell

    All you perverts are trying to make us normal people feel comfortable with your perversions. It says in the Bible 'Adam and Eve', not Adam and Steve. Read it, learn it and live it you bunch of perverts.........444club, yogi.........

    July 2, 2012 at 11:10 am |
    • LinCA

      @Michael B. O'Donnell

      You said, "It says in the Bible 'Adam and Eve', not Adam and Steve."

      If Eve was crafted from Adam's rib, she was his genetic twin, and thus male. If she was made a woman, she must have been transsexual.

      Your god created the first LGBT couple, and the first same sex union.

      July 2, 2012 at 11:15 am |
    • Michael B. O'Donnell

      To LinCa, You think God, in his infinate wisdom, would not for see that problem and change Eve's DNA as he saw fit? God is an all loving, all powerful GOD. He provides the light for mankind to see. You are trying to justify your perversion with semantics. When you stand before God for his judgement I am sure he will take your perversion into account and reward you accordingly.........444club, yogi.........

      July 2, 2012 at 12:56 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Ahahhhahhahh! Comedy gold.

      July 2, 2012 at 12:58 pm |
    • LinCA

      @Michael B. O'Donnell

      You said, "You think God, in his infinate wisdom, would not for see that problem and change Eve's DNA as he saw fit?"
      Exactly, and in the process perform the first ever sex reassignment.

      You said, "God is an all loving, all powerful GOD. He provides the light for mankind to see. You are trying to justify your perversion with semantics. When you stand before God for his judgement I am sure he will take your perversion into account and reward you accordingly."

      I'm guessing you are referring to the common christian fable of hell being reserved for the likes of me. That would mean that your all loving god will punish me for an eternity for simply not believing the complete and utter bullshit stories being told about it. It loves me so much that it will torment me forever.

      July 2, 2012 at 2:19 pm |
  9. SoldierOfConscience

    A recent study in Demography estimated the number of exclusive male g@ys in the general population at 2.5 percent, and the number of exclusive l3sb!ans at 1.4 percent. The study took into account three large data sets, including the all-encompassing U.S. Census.

    July 2, 2012 at 8:56 am |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      Now consider a report from the Journal of S3x Research which noted that h0m0s3xu@ p3d0ph!l3s commit about one-third of the total number of ch!ld s3x offenses, even though they are outnumbered by h3t3r0s3xuals 20 to one. Less than four percent of the population commits one-third of the offenses against ch!ldr3n!

      July 2, 2012 at 8:58 am |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      In The G@y Report, h0m0s3xu@l researchers report data showing that better than 7 out of 10 h0m0s3xuals surveyed had at some time had s3x with b0ys 16 to 19.

      July 2, 2012 at 8:59 am |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      The evidence is clear. g@ys have an overwhelming pr0p3nsity towards ch!ld m0l3station. This is not to say that all of them act out. But the percentage of those who do is so disproportionately high it would be irresponsible and costly to ignore. Just ask the Roman Catholic Church.

      July 2, 2012 at 9:03 am |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      To give an analogy, you are running a shop and have had a rash of thefts. lets say you have had 10 thefts in the last year. 2 of them are from people with purple hair. Purple haireds are a very small minority in your area. 8 out of 10 culprits have black /borwn/blonde hair. However, you as a shopkeeper are not interested in Politicaly correct. you are interested in : IS THIS PERSON IN FRONT OF ME GOING TO STEAL FROM ME? Such a small minority has conducted _TWENTY PERCENT_ of the thefts. that is of concern and you are going to be especially vigilant when a purple haired customer comes in.

      In probability theory, prob(z given x) = prob(z) / prob(x). look up this concept. prob(z) by itself is not of concern, when you have a known x in front of you.

      July 2, 2012 at 9:08 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      My, my. Four consecutive posts trying to make a point? Bespeaks desperation.

      July 2, 2012 at 11:17 am |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      No Tom

      last time I put a long one, it didnt go in. C3ns0red. So I put it in one by one..

      again, attack the messenger or motive rather than the content posted. classic I should say.

      July 2, 2012 at 12:42 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      the probability measure I was talking about, its called CONDITIONAL PROBABILITY. What I am interested in is not probability(straight dude harm b0y).. that would be useless. In deciding if say, g@y ppl are ok in b0y scouts, what we need is Probability(dude will target b0ys GIVEN dude is g@y). Look up conditional probability and how that is calculated.

      July 2, 2012 at 1:03 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You're an idiot.

      July 2, 2012 at 1:06 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      Tom, what would you say to the shopkeeper who is closely following the purple haireds? I bet it would be 'go get a lawyer', when the shopkeeper is the actual victim.

      Other than calling people names, I dont see much coming from you.

      July 2, 2012 at 1:19 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Not much is necessary to contradict a moron.

      Rights are not withheld from people because of what "might" or "could" happen, dumbazz. Pedophilia has nothing to do with gay marriage.

      Again, you're an idiot who is trolling. You don't have a point. You don't have any facts.

      July 2, 2012 at 1:21 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      Tom, its not what 'could' happen. Look at the stats that I put out there above. The safety of kids is #1.

      July 2, 2012 at 2:48 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Moron. Of course it is. You are pretending to be even dumber than you are. You are asserting that some statistics are the basis for laws. They are not. You are claiming that, based on laws of probability (and some statistics that are likely bogus as are all your arguments), we should deny rights to a group of people. That would be akin to denying rights to African Americans because the preponderance of some crimes are committed by them. You are saying that because someone belongs to a group, he or she is guilty of crimes by association. Our laws don't work that way, you dolt.

      I suspect you already know this and are just trolling because you're in need of attention. Then again, a fvckwit who can't even spell his own screen name isn't very bright, in all PROBABILITY.

      July 2, 2012 at 2:53 pm |
    • Dorothy

      As I mentioned before soldier boy......if you want to base this on statistics ("for the safety of the children"), all children would be raised by lesbian couples since 90% of the pedophiles are men and the greatest percentage are men molesting little girls. Hence, statistically, children are safest in a household with a lesbian couple, second safest in a household with two straight women, third safest with a gay male couple, fourth safest with a straight man and a straight female, and least safe with two straight men. That is just based on the current statistics.

      July 2, 2012 at 11:00 pm |
  10. Dorothy

    Face it soldier boy.....you can raise as many anecdotal things as you want (as could I regarding catholics and the straight community).....but the statistics and the empirical data are against you. The data is the data and the facts are the facts......and these all show that gay couples are statistically as well adjusted as straight couples and the children of both turn out equally as well. 59% of your Church recognize that.......and that is consistent with the general population's recognition of it. There are crazy gays out there and there are an equal percentage per capita of crazy straights out there.......but the stats bare out that most straights and most gays are just your average, run-of-the-mill good people who are productive and good members of society. Prejudice and bigotry should have no place in the Catholic Church or in any other church.....and it definitely should have no place in our country.

    July 1, 2012 at 9:22 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      Dorothy:

      look up B4u-ACT. they are an organization lobbying the APA to remove the classification of p3d0fyles as mentally sick. They contend that it is yet another orientation

      Mr codie from TLC show sister wife talked about how polygamists should sue to get recognition, like g_ys have

      So you see, its not hypothetical. its happening.

      The only way to stop the new 'orientations' coming up is to shut the barn door before the horses bolt, i.e. its only male/female. end of discussion.

      You can say consent blah blah. But these people (e.g. B4u-act) are trying to work around that. Do your research. that is what I am scared of. Drastic change to the point where my grand child will be living in anarchic society.

      So why break something that works? marriage = 1 man + 1 woman. end.

      July 1, 2012 at 10:56 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      I used above argument with a cousin who lives in maryland. He was initially calling me close minded etc. I forwarded him all the web links. and talked to him. Now he is considering voting to repeal the new law in the upcoming election. I will be on him till then to make sure he votes that way.

      One vote at a time. This is my contribution to the country.

      July 1, 2012 at 11:00 pm |
    • Dorothy

      What a shame to have to live in such fear of the "boogy man" soldier boy. People had the same fear of the "slippery slope" when interracial marriage was being discussed as well. You may not understand the importance of the concept of "consent" and "equality" but luckily most people do. You have to work so hard to turn one person towards hatred and bigotry. Luckily all I need to do is show up and live my life and I convert multiple people daily to acceptance of gays and gay marriage on a daily basis. Back to work and "living my life." It's the best witness yet.

      July 2, 2012 at 12:01 am |
  11. a1

    a

    June 30, 2012 at 4:45 pm |
  12. Michael Bayly

    This is a well-written and helpful article but it contains the wrong URL for Catholics for Marriage Equality – Minnesota. The correct URL is http://www.c4me.org.

    June 26, 2012 at 10:35 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      However well written it be, when something is against the basic preachings it doesnt make sense. What next?

      catholics4Adulterers.com?
      catholics4Liars.com?
      catholics4Coveters.com?

      June 27, 2012 at 5:13 pm |
    • Dorothy

      My my soldier boy......I did answer your questions.....or actually the American Medical Association and the American Psychological association answered your questions......I was just the messenger. Questions 1-3 are answered by them stating that pedo – philia is primarily a disorder of men and while present in both straights and gays, has a greater prevalence among straights. Hence, yes, you can find examples in both communities.....more, however, in the straight. For questions 4,5,5, and 6..they have stated that studies prove children raised in gay and straight households are equally well adjusted. Social roles are learned in both the family and in society. Each type of family has a special but unique contribution to that development. And finally, for #7, that seems to be a straight aberration and has little if anything to do with the gay community. Indeed gays have presented the best argument against it in that they have emphasized that marriage is between two equals in love. Once any gender takes dominance and is able to have multiple spouses while the other gender cannot, the basis of equality has been destroyed.

      I do have a job, soldier boy, so I can only engage in this type of chatter on occasion. Regarding your wife.....only you can know if she really enjoys your silly rhetoric. Most women, however, would find it tiresome.

      June 30, 2012 at 1:28 pm |
    • Dorothy

      Michael – I agree. Not only is it well written, it has obviously stimulated thought and – at times – consternation among the faithful. Just as when the church made Galileo sign a statement that his empirical evidence that the earth rotated around the sun was "repulsive to Holy Scripture," this article has made people examine whether or not what they perceive to be "repulsive" is simply grounded in human prejudice rather than in holy scripture.

      June 30, 2012 at 5:47 pm |
  13. Michael Bayly

    This is a well-written and helpful article but it contains the wrong URL for Catholics for Marriage Equality – Minnesota. The correct URL is http://www.c4me.org

    June 26, 2012 at 10:34 pm |
  14. SoldierOfConscience

    DOROTHY:

    have you gone back to OZ?

    In response to your saying my wife will turn l3z, I replied that she agreed with me about son playing with dolls. You just ignored it. any response?

    June 26, 2012 at 8:01 am |
    • Dorothy

      Hey soldier boy....since you brought up the reference to Oz....I should point out that the Wiz was a story of good verses evil and that in the end good (personified in the person of Dorothy) wins! The "evil" side – the witches were the personification of hate and prejudice (hmmmmmm.....sound familiar?). Luckily good ultimately triumphs over evil. I guess metaphorically Dorothy did have to go back to Oz to fight evil.

      June 30, 2012 at 1:52 pm |
  15. SoldierOfConscience

    OPEN CHALLENGE to Dorothy

    You personally insult me but refuse to answer points that I raised.

    Either answer the following TRUE or FALSE questions or admit that I am right.

    1. Harry hay supported N*A*M*B*L*A? TRUE OR FALSE?
    2. The j0urn@l of h0m0s3xuaity had a SPECIAL DOUBLE issue called "male intergenerational intimacy". Said issue told to embrace p3d0s showing interest in one's son. TRUE OR FALSE?
    3. Mark Foley was a politican who s3xted young boys he had contact with. When caught, he resigned, said "sorry I did it coz im g@y. and headed into rehab. TRUE OR FALSE?
    4. A young boy learns how to be a MAN by looking at his father. TRUE OR FALSE?
    5. A young boy learns how to relate to women by seeing how his dad relates to his mom. TRUE OR FALSE?
    5. A young girl learns how to be a WOMAN by looking at her mom. TRUE OR FALSE?
    6. A young girl learns how to relate to men by seeing how her mom relates to dad. TRUE OR FALSE?
    7. Mr. Kodie from TLC show sistr wife has made noise about suing for recognition of polygamist lifestyle coz g@ys have it. TRUE OR FALSE?

    (credits due to previous poster BIBLICAL for some of above points. I researched following his lead, and added some of my own)

    June 26, 2012 at 8:00 am |
    • Sage

      Since Dorothy is not replying, I will for her

      1. true
      2. true. Odd that this journal should do so. may be an academic thing, but dunno
      3. true
      4, 5,5,6 (dont know how to count?) : your point is???? It does seem common sense. But can you prove that it is the *only* way?
      7 proof please

      In short, I was able to dig up proof for 1 2 and 3. looks like you are 3 for 8. bad batting average.

      June 26, 2012 at 11:58 am |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      At least somebody has the guts to respond, unlike some gutless wonders......

      3 out of 8 huh? The last one was a news item. I dont have a reference.
      the two 5's, gimme a break Man. To answer your question, its the natural way so why come up with new ways?

      point 2: Even the SAGE asked why this journal should publish such an issue. game, set and match! academic huh? Nothing academic about hurting kids.

      June 26, 2012 at 3:44 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Soldier

      What is your point?

      June 26, 2012 at 3:48 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      HawaiiGuest

      my point is that you guys are nitpicking (two 5's etc). Even agreeing with my point in a backhanded sort of way ("Odd that this journal should do so") but dogmatically refusing to even reply (e.g. The wicked witch of the north from Oz) or doing the old shimmy (like 'Sage'. academic indeed. bah)

      Funny how no amount of evidence produced is not enough.

      June 26, 2012 at 4:51 pm |
    • Dorothy

      See above (or below). Your questions were addressed by me in the past, but obviously went over your head, so I have addressed them again above, more explicitly. Ta Ta for now, soldier boy. Let me know if you still don't understand and I will try to make it even more basic.

      June 30, 2012 at 1:55 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      Dorothy,

      as I stressed, for all questions 1 thru 8, only TRUE and FALSE are allowed. no commentary.

      June 30, 2012 at 4:47 pm |
    • Dorothy

      I have answered every question soldier boy. Although the Church hierarchy (and you) might believe it can silence women and make them play by rules which obfuscate the truth, I will only post comments which clearly states the truth and which is backed by respectable organizations such as the American Medical Association and the American Psychological Association. The fact that you cannot deal with the truth is quite irrelevant to me and most probably to others as well. What you are trying to do is equivalent to trying to prove that the world is flat by posing a true and false question as to whether or not the land in Indiana is flat......and if I answer "true," the land in Indiana is flat then you can jump to the erroneous conclusion that the world is flat. The church tried that tactic once before......it didn't work then and it won't work now.

      June 30, 2012 at 5:39 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      So you avoid my questions. fine.

      June 30, 2012 at 8:40 pm |
    • Dorothy

      awwww....poor baby, soldier boy. Just because you didn't get the answer you WANTED, doesn't mean you didn't get an answer. Pouting is very unbecoming sweetie. Buck up and be a man.

      June 30, 2012 at 9:38 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      Dorothy:

      its not pouting.

      Let me rephrase it

      WHY is the journal of h0m0s3xuality publishing SPECIAL double issues where they discuss p3d0ph1lia?

      WHY is one of the earliest leaders of the g@y movement supporting N*A*M*B*L*A?

      Bringing up irrelevant stories like flat earths is not the point.

      June 30, 2012 at 11:09 pm |
    • Dorothy

      The article to which you refer was written by a straight se x ologist and pyschotherapist, Gunter Schmidt. Interestingly enough the article was originally commissioned (although not published) by a catholic-affiliated organization. It and similar articles have been written by him and published in both "straight" and "gay" academic journals. You can easily google him and see all of the academic journals in which he has been published. Regarding "famous" pedo – philes, there is a whole website that lists numerous straight and gay people who are also pedo – philes (many of them Christians and many of them republicans). The fact that this website exists does not make all Christians and all Republicans and all straight people pedo – philes.... nor can one make the leap that you seem to be trying to make with gays, that all Christians and Republicans condone pedo – philia. (And you were pouting a little).

      July 1, 2012 at 12:30 am |
    • Dorothy

      oh....and btw, Dr. Schmidt is also on the board of "Pro Familia."

      July 1, 2012 at 12:33 am |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      Schmodt? I wasnt talking about no schmidt. I was referring to a SPECIAL 2 volume edition by journal of H that has MANY artciles. just google 'M@le int3rgenerational intim@cy'. so again.. WHY is the journal of H publishing this kind of article?

      also, there is a BIG difference between some random christian supporting X and the pope supporting X. Look up who Harry Hay was.

      July 1, 2012 at 4:49 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      In 1995 the h0m0s3xual magazine “Guide” said, “We can be proud that the g@y movement has been home to the few voices who have had the courage to say out loud that ch1ldren are naturally s3xual” and “deserve the right to s3xual expression with whoever they choose. …” The article went on to say: “Instead of fearing being labeled p3d0philes, we must proudly proclaim that s3x is good, including ch!ldren’s s3xual1ty … we must do it for the ch1ldren’s sake.”

      July 1, 2012 at 8:45 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      Journals typically have editors who are recognized experts in the field and are respected by all who are interested in it.

      With this is mind, consider the following fact:

      The scholarly journal in p3d0ph!lia, called "pedika" or something similar has in its editors Prof De Cecco and many others who are also on the editorial board of the "journal of h0m0s3xual!ty"

      What does this mean, Dorothy?

      July 1, 2012 at 8:57 pm |
    • Dorothy

      Ummmmm.....when it comes to p3dophilia, the Catholic Hierarchy is the one organized body that has probably done the most harm.....certainly not the gay community. Between the cover-up (yes, including the Pope, who knew what was going on with the clergy) and the perpetration by members of the Catholic hierarchy, using your logic the church should be condemned and shut down. Luckily, I and most others recognize that the bad acts of a few are not necessarily a reflection on the whole.....even when the bad acts are from leaders within the organization. Regarding your commentary on the other people listed on-line, many of the perpetrators were ministers (one of whom was recognized by President Bush) and others were high ranking republicans who were christians. They were not just your "random christians."

      Also, the J of H is actually not sponsored by a gay organization. The University as well as the editorial board are predominantly straight. Hence, if I follow your logic I should be condemning the straight community for putting those perversion in a journal that by name would SEEM to be associated with the gay community. Also, if one goes purely by statistics, since men are the greatest perpetrators of this atrocity against children and straights have a greater prevalence than gays, again based on your logic, children should only be raised by lesbian couples. That would put the children at the least risk statistically.

      July 1, 2012 at 9:04 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      last thing, Dorothy

      J of H cant be for straights its for H.

      Thats for common sense.

      July 2, 2012 at 8:32 am |
    • Dorothy

      Obviously not, soldier boy. Just check out the straight composition of the editorial board. You were the one that said the editorial board was a reflection of the thoughts of the journal.

      July 3, 2012 at 12:59 am |
  16. Dorothy

    Having seen Tom, Tom's other posts, it is quite obvious that somebody is impersonating him. How pathetic. And regarding "winning or losing".....there is nothing to win or lose. The American Medical Association and the American Psychological Association have published the data regarding this topic and there really isn't a lot to debate. Gays and ultimately gay marriage are healthy expressions of a person's humanity who has this orientation. This is simply facts now. There are three reasons to reject it: 1) being uneducated. 2. Being educated, but so ingrained in your prejudice that you ignore the empiric data or 3) being indifferent. Based on the article it appears that 59% of Catholics are educated and about 41% (or less) are made up by the other three categories. That is not overly surprising as it goes along with statistics in other areas of known facts.

    June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm |
  17. TrueBlueCatholic

    No Godfearing catholic can support this kind of heresy

    June 25, 2012 at 6:34 pm |
    • Yvonne

      I am Anglican myself and I cannot and will not follow the ways of the world..God being my helper...

      June 25, 2012 at 11:47 pm |
    • sam stone

      It is fine to not support it in your church. Why do you feel that the laws of the land should follow the laws of your church?

      June 28, 2012 at 9:49 am |
    • Dorothy

      Well, actually the heresy would be the literal interpretation of the Bible rather than interpreting it through it's historical, literary, and epistemological context. Knowing that gay marriage is not sinful is simply a matter of conscience and common sense.

      June 30, 2012 at 2:41 pm |
  18. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

    G@y marriage is so g@y!

    June 25, 2012 at 4:57 pm |
  19. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

    I cannot counter Soldier's points thats why I am quiet.He wins.

    June 25, 2012 at 2:18 pm |
  20. SoldierOfConscience

    The wicked witch of the north is afraid of me!

    June 25, 2012 at 12:32 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.